BS: Emotional Subjects

Subject: RE: BS: Emotional Subjects
From: Senoufou
Date: 02 Jun 18 - 04:21 AM

All excellent points.
There are ways (in real life as well as on a forum) of putting across a point of view in a discussion without being goady or confrontational.

For example, one can say, " However, I believe that..." rather than this or that 'is definitely the case and you're totally wrong'.

And to show one is listening and learning, one can say, "That's most interesting..." before giving an opposite idea.

Things like 'Have you considered?', 'That might be so but...'
'I respect your view, however I see it rather differently...' are much more polite than
'At it again (name)? More of your usual rubbish? You're an idiot/racist/anti-semitic/etc

The saddest thing is Iains' last point: 'The thread closes and good people run away.'

Subject: RE: BS: Emotional Subjects
From: peteglasgow
Date: 02 Jun 18 - 04:20 AM

yes, i've pushed off a few times. recently it has become common to bicker about whether particular frequent posters should be ignored in the hope they will be encouraged to stop posting. i tend to post occasionally and rarely get any response at all - while reading all sorts of rubbish about intricate points of ancient squabbles and how best to ignore each other. it's not a very kind or interesting place really.....

Subject: RE: BS: Emotional Subjects
From: Iains
Date: 02 Jun 18 - 03:58 AM

Wild unsubstantiated statements designed purely to goad have no place on this forum. It is not a difficult task to distinguish between fact and your opinion when posting. Deliberately mixing the two and tying to act the innocent when called out leads to unnecessary argument and strife.
Facts can always be checked and verified irregardless of source. Where these facts lead in the way of interpretation and opinion is entirely subjective and can lead to interesting discussion. It is entirely possible to debate opposing views without resorting to exaggeration, provocative, totally unsubstantiated labels and insults. To impose bigoted views on the forum and allow no counter view is guaranteed to kill a thread. This is in essence what we are repeatedly seeing.
It is not a game of winners and losers, it is a case of outlining your point of view and attempting to understand the rationale behind opposing views. Getting upset and creating progressively more inflammatory responses only achieves negatives. The thread closes and good people run away.

Subject: RE: BS: Emotional Subjects
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 02 Jun 18 - 03:17 AM

I concur. I find the statement about understanding rather than winning of particular relevance. This forum is not a debating society, it is for discussions and in discussions no one loses. Everyone should feel that they have gained knowledge, even if they disagree with the points made!

Unfortunately not everyone will agree and sadly, Al, when the ones who want to win get on here your well intentioned thread will most likely suffer the same fate as many others.

Subject: RE: BS: Emotional Subjects
From: Senoufou
Date: 02 Jun 18 - 03:03 AM

Oh wouldn't it be excellent if all posters had the same wise and measured style as the three posters above? Discussions could continue ad infinitum, and we could reach interesting conclusions, learn about eachothers' viewpoints and have a lovely, informative thread. Sigh... if only...

Subject: RE: BS: Emotional Subjects
From: DMcG
Date: 02 Jun 18 - 02:38 AM

if you never listen to other people, and take in the way they express themselves. you will never understand any other point of view than your own.

I agree with that 100%. As I have said over on the Brexit thread, I am happy to talk to anyone as long as they appear to be making a serious attempt to understand other's remarks. And to stress, understanding is not the same as agreeing.

But being passionate about a point of view should never blind us to the fact that other people can have a passionate point of view of their own that is different. If it does, we get into a row where one view tries to batter the other into submission, which never works, often turns into abuse and ultimately thread closures.

So if we do want to "understand", rather than "win arguments", we need to let other people have their say without feeling the need to attach everything they say, and trust to the intelligence of third parties to judge who has the better case.

There are cases where you have to take a stronger position, but they all happen in real life, not in forums.

Subject: RE: BS: Emotional Subjects
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Jun 18 - 02:34 AM

I have always respected what you are trying to do Al, but you really are asking a lot
None us us are skilled debaters, but most people bring something to these discussions, if it's only passion for the subject
I found the closure of the last thread unnecessary, but that's my opinion - I accept part of the blame for once more becoming exasperated over something that is very much a part of my life at present - not an academic subject but a part of day-to-day living
I've said we need to clean up our own act rather than rely on the mods to do it for us - so far, we've failed to do so
I have little doubt that this thread, if it is allowed to continue, will eventually degenerate into a blame-game and go the way of all the others
Jim

Subject: BS: Emotional Subjects
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 02 Jun 18 - 02:19 AM

And so yet another thread gets closed.
A subject which many of us have thoughts and feelings and areas of ignorance that would bear discussion - but dammit here we go again - unable to lend any governance to our tongues in the freedom offered us by cyberspace.

Actually - a thread getting closed is not the worst of it
The worst of it is the number of people , who just look over our shoulders and say - I don't want to be part of donnybrook like mudcat - I'm off.

A couple of times, I've disappeared for a few months, driven away by jeers, amateur Paxmans picking me up on my political correctness on subjects close to my heart, but folk music (or my vision of it) has been my life and mudcat is a place I have a right better than most to occupy.

The point is that a lot of people don't come back.. They piss off and that's it - the last we see of them. Good people with interesting and different points of view from our own - divergent thinkers.

Often they are people who don't express themselves like some guarded politician with nothing more than a gobfull of platitudes to offer. They have lived close to the nexus of a situation and they see it and express it in stark terms.

You have the right to demand blandness, uniformity, conformity to every convenient truism designed to paint the world in magnolia and pacify the hard of understanding. but i wish you wouldn't.

if you never listen to other people, and take in the way they express themselves. you will never understand any other point of view than your own.