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lilting / diddling / jigging / tuning

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GUEST,A 08 Jun 18 - 06:11 AM
Mick Pearce (MCP) 08 Jun 18 - 08:42 AM
Tradsinger 10 Jun 18 - 03:32 PM
Jim Carroll 11 Jun 18 - 08:48 AM
Jack Campin 11 Jun 18 - 09:29 AM
Tradsinger 11 Jun 18 - 09:59 AM
Jack Campin 11 Jun 18 - 10:28 AM
GUEST,A 12 Jun 18 - 03:15 PM
Jim Carroll 13 Jun 18 - 02:19 AM
Jack Campin 13 Jun 18 - 03:15 AM
GUEST,A 15 Jun 18 - 07:05 AM
GUEST,A 19 Jun 18 - 10:25 AM
GUEST,Lilter 20 Jun 18 - 05:45 PM
GUEST,A 21 Jun 18 - 10:46 AM
Jim Carroll 21 Jun 18 - 11:41 AM
meself 21 Jun 18 - 07:53 PM
GUEST,A 22 Jun 18 - 08:10 AM
GUEST,A 22 Jun 18 - 08:12 AM
Jim Carroll 22 Jun 18 - 08:21 AM
Jack Campin 24 Jun 18 - 07:28 AM
Jim Carroll 24 Jun 18 - 09:04 AM
Jim Carroll 24 Jun 18 - 09:05 AM
GUEST,A 25 Jun 18 - 06:49 PM
GUEST,A 27 Jun 18 - 04:59 AM
GUEST,A 03 Jul 18 - 11:37 AM
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Subject: lilting / diddling / jigging / portaireacht
From: GUEST,A
Date: 08 Jun 18 - 06:11 AM

Hello

I'm looking for information, anecdotes, recording sources and general thoughts and opinions on Lilting.

Lilting is also known as or referred to as: diddling, dowdling, jigging, tuning, gob music, puss music, chin music and portaireacht.

Comments on other forms of mouth music such as Puirt a Beul and Canntaireachd are also welcome.

Any and all info or comments are very welcome and requested please.

Thank you,
A


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Subject: RE: lilting / diddling / jigging / tuning
From: Mick Pearce (MCP)
Date: 08 Jun 18 - 08:42 AM

Guest A

There are several mudcat threads about these already.

If you go back to the forum page and type lilting in the box marked Filter and select All in the age drop-down next to the filter box (currently showing Age: 3 Days) and press the Refresh button you'll get a list of those threads with lilting in the title (currently 5 including this one).

You can do the same with mouth music instead of lilting (more threads, including some as song titles and also one with Sidmouth musicicans!, which you can ignore).

Mick


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Subject: RE: lilting / diddling / jigging / tuning
From: Tradsinger
Date: 10 Jun 18 - 03:32 PM

I have come across several versions of diddling/tuning in my collecting. PM me. Have you heard Phil Tanner diddling the Manchester Hornpipe/Gower Reel? Check this out
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xqCxKtHr778. Superb

Tradsinger


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Subject: RE: lilting / diddling / jigging / tuning
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Jun 18 - 08:48 AM

In Ireland it was used to provide music to accompany dancing, often when musical instruments were too expensive for poor families
It came into its own when the priests took against the "unchaperoned" crossroads danced and broke them up forcibly, often destroying instruments they found
It developed into an art form in its own right
In Scotland, Cainntearachd was used to memorise pipe tunes in detail - MARY MORRISON was a true virtuoso at this (though only recorded when she was part her best)
Not related, but not a million miles away was the Genoan Tralaliri singing tradition in Genoa
According to Lomax, this originated when, during the Garibaldi Revolutions, the singing of revolutionary songs wa banned, so the men used to sit at the pavement cafes, la-laing the tunes each time a soldier or policeman passed.
This too developed into its own ART FORM
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: lilting / diddling / jigging / tuning
From: Jack Campin
Date: 11 Jun 18 - 09:29 AM

Then there's this...

Take Five in Carnatic style


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Subject: RE: lilting / diddling / jigging / tuning
From: Tradsinger
Date: 11 Jun 18 - 09:59 AM

The examples I have come across have all been collected from English gypsies, all of whom said that the diddling/tuning was used to accompany step dancing, not as a performance in itself.

Tradsinger


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Subject: RE: lilting / diddling / jigging / tuning
From: Jack Campin
Date: 11 Jun 18 - 10:28 AM

Canntaireachd is something totally different, and isn't really intended as a performing art. It's a kind of notation resembling ABC but with the ornamentation represented by the consonants and the rhythm left out. That Carnatic singing example I linked to is similar in that she's singing the note names.


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Subject: RE: lilting / diddling / jigging / tuning
From: GUEST,A
Date: 12 Jun 18 - 03:15 PM

Tradsinger, i just sent you a PM.

*

Does anyone have any thoughts of the origins of lilting....or know of early reports of lilting in printed sources?

Thanks very much to everyone for their responses so far.

A


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Subject: RE: lilting / diddling / jigging / tuning
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Jun 18 - 02:19 AM

"Canntaireachd is something totally different, and isn't really intended as a performing art"
I don't think any of this was ever intended as a performing art; I was under the impression that it was all originally functional, to make up for the lack of instruments and that the interest as performance came when those functions ceased
Isn't it the same with shanties and waukling songs ?
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: lilting / diddling / jigging / tuning
From: Jack Campin
Date: 13 Jun 18 - 03:15 AM

No. Canntaireachd is a means of recording and transmitting an art music repertoire. The real thing was when you played it on the pipes, and it had very little use unless were a piobaireachd player - it wasn't designed for any other kind of music, and the kinds of ornament it represents don't exist in dance music.


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Subject: RE: lilting / diddling / jigging / tuning
From: GUEST,A
Date: 15 Jun 18 - 07:05 AM

I recently found this video:

A lilting duet from Seamus Brogan and his mother Mary Brogan.

http://thebanksoftheboro.blogspot.com/2011/01/who-needs-fiddle-or-flute-mary-seamus.html


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Subject: RE: lilting / diddling / jigging / tuning
From: GUEST,A
Date: 19 Jun 18 - 10:25 AM

Links to two videos of a young Lilter named Eimear who i've just learned of recently:

I think she's originally from Clare but now living in the U.S.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nH3GSy_V1lg

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ipn9As2hynY

A


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Subject: RE: lilting / diddling / jigging / tuning
From: GUEST,Lilter
Date: 20 Jun 18 - 05:45 PM

This article was published in The Living Tradition magazine last year... Provides some great stories and practical info on lilting...

Lilting Article


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Subject: RE: lilting / diddling / jigging / tuning
From: GUEST,A
Date: 21 Jun 18 - 10:46 AM

Thanks Guest Lilter

The article is written by Charlie Piggott's son Rowan Piggott.

I met Charlie Piggott recently down at World Fiddle Day in Scartaglin.
He told me that Paddy Rafferty is his favourite lilter.

He told me about Rowan's article and kindly posted me a copy of it.
I later spotted the online pdf version of the article.

*
If you're a lilter yourself I'd be interested in chatting more...just for general
thoughts, anecdotes....any aul info a'tall.

Thanks,
A


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Subject: RE: lilting / diddling / jigging / tuning
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Jun 18 - 11:41 AM

From Ist edition of 'The Companion to Irish Traditional Music (different in 2nd edition)
Jim Carroll

Lilting.
Lilting is one of the terms used in Ireland for a music style known as vocalisation. Its typical sound-structure has been adopted as the colloquial term ‘diddley-dee’ to denote (and often trivialise) traditional music. Lilting has been largely over¬looked in the consideration of Irish music, perhaps because it has been so widespread

Forms.
Lilting has four main forms:
1. A memory aid for musicians. This is one of the most common uses of lilting. It can be used between musicians when they are talking about a tune, or in the teaching of a traditional tune. A teacher may encourage a pupil to learn to lilt a tune before learning to play it on an instrument, or during the learning of a tune the teacher may lilt it along with the hesitant playing of the pupil to encourage her or him along.
2. To supply music for dancing. Musicians often ascribe the origin of lilting to the need for music for dancing. Although lilting probably existed in
lilting. Lilting is one of the terms used m Ireland for a musical style known vocalisation. Its typical sound-structure hm been adopted as the colloquial term ‘diddle dee’ to denote (and often trivialise) traditional music. ‘Vocalisation’ is found in many musical cultures throughout the world, referring to the use of what has been termed ‘nonsense words', ‘meaningless syllables’, ‘non-lexical syllables': or ‘obsolete words’. In Ireland, the terms diddling, dydilling, puss music, mouth music, gob music, humming and jigging are some of the other
Terms used, though lilting is the most common term. An example from another Western musical culture is scat singing in jazz music, where syllables are used to communicate a melodic and/or rhythmic pattern, the choice and placing of syllables reflecting tone, colour, rhythmic pattern and other features of musical instruments. These functions are also present in lilting.
In Ghana, onomatopoeic syllables are used by drummers to communicate rhythm and pitch of a particular beat. Players of the tabla in Indian classical music use syllables to represent a stroke executed in a certain way. Successive stokes which make up standard rhythmic patterns are represented by syllables grouped together. Within the piping tradition in Scotland, a system of sung syllables or vocables was used, called ‘canntaireacht’, as an alternative to written notation. Within this, each syllable had a specific musical meaning. Non-lexical syllables are also used in musical cultures as diverse as Cantonese opera and Navajo ceremonial music.
Lilting has been largely overlooked in the consideration of Irish music, perhaps because it has been so widespread. Indeed, a common colloquial term used to describe Irish instrumental music is ‘diddilee-eye music’ which refers to lilting. Lilting may be identified in four main forms:
1. A memory aid for musicians. This is one of the most common uses of lilting. It can be used between musicians when they are talking about a tune, or in the teaching of a traditional tune. A teacher may encourage a pupil to learn to lilt a tune before learning to play it on an instrument, or during the learning of a tune, the teacher may lilt it along with the hesitant playing of the pupil to encourage her or him along.
2- To supply music for dancing. Musicians often ascribe the origin of lilting to the need for music for dancing. Although lilting probably existed in itself previously, there is no doubt it much importance in providing music for house dance, particularly in rural areas. It may also be that a shortage of musical instruments, or difficulty in getting repairs done to instruments would mean the services of a lilter would be called on to provide music. Whistling could also be used for this purpose.
3. A novelty item, e. g., so-called nonsense syllables as a refrain within a song, or in conjunction with an instrumental performance. Many examples exist of lilting as a refrain within a song text, as a chorus or otherwise both in Irish and English language texts. An excellent example in the collection of the Irish Traditional Music Archive, Dublin was performed by Colum Ó Ciabháin in Connemara in the 1940s, and was recorded for the BBC by Séamus Ennis. Entitled Port na Gibóige’, this comprises a spoken text in Irish which relates a story interspersed with lilting.
4. A refined recital form. As the social function of lilting as a means of providing music for dance has declined through time, there has been a rise in popularity of lilting as a form in itself. It may be used by a singer as an alternative for songs, or by a musician in a session as a novelty item. Comhaltas Ceoltoiri Eireann has a separate competition for lilting in its annual fleadhanna.
Although listening might give an initial impression of abstract use of syllables, analysis of features such as type of syllables used and their place within a particular phrase of music suggests that lilting conforms to an unconscious set of rules. It is an area awaiting further academic investigation. (AMA)

Lilting sounds are very much the speciality of the individual. Thus there may be ‘Dubbley- dam’, ‘rupptley-tam’, ‘Row de doh’, ‘Dum de doodley dum’, ‘dithery-didle’, ‘dahm-tee- damtery’, ‘Hoor-ee-diddley’, and so on. Some lilters will mimic instruments - such as banjo (dinker-danka, dinka-diddely) or bodhrán (rupp-buppety, buppety-bup), or in slower tunes the flute/fiddle by using vowel sounds only. Lilting may well have come from a functional substitution for instrument, but while there are many expert lilters who address themselves to particular tunes as conscientiously as an instrumentalist, today there are also many who treat it as a high-novelty performance. Bobby Gardiner’s The Clare Shout takes most of his signals from skin-tensioned bodhrán, applying melody to a percussive interpretation of the tunes. This is not remarkable, consider¬ing his expertise is on dance-rhythmic melodeon. He also bends, stretches and slurs notes in the manner of a sean-nós singer. Tim Lyons of Co. Cork is a fine lilter of complex ornamentation akin to instrumental music. This talent stems from his expertise both as a singer and accordionist, and may relate to the fact that he played harmonica in his younger days. Rhythmically, the syllabic structure of lilting follows the course of a tune’s time-signature: Die-dlee-iye, die-dlee-iye corresponding to a bar in 6/8 time, Dump-tee-dith-ery, dan-tee- dith-ery corresponding to a bar in 4/4 reel time.


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Subject: RE: lilting / diddling / jigging / tuning
From: meself
Date: 21 Jun 18 - 07:53 PM

My mother told me that in her childhood in Prince Edward Island, in the 1920s/30s, her father and uncles would "jig" in unison to provide music for dancing, in absence of an instrument.

But let's not forget the greatest of them all: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v0glAF1VBKI


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Subject: RE: lilting / diddling / jigging / tuning
From: GUEST,A
Date: 22 Jun 18 - 08:10 AM

Thanks Jim for the entry from the 1st Ed. Companion.

I had checked the second edition for it's entry on Lilting.
I never thought to check if the entry in the 1st was the same or different.

A


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Subject: RE: lilting / diddling / jigging / tuning
From: GUEST,A
Date: 22 Jun 18 - 08:12 AM

Meself, thank you for the Prince Edward Island remembrances.

thats exactly the kind of anecdotal history that I'm looking for.

And thanks for the Popeye link as well :)


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Subject: RE: lilting / diddling / jigging / tuning
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Jun 18 - 08:21 AM

Guest A
I think I may have made a bit of a hames when copying the article - both editions of the book are difficult to get to lie flat on the scanner
If anybody has problems with it let me know and I'll try again
Jim


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Subject: RE: lilting / diddling / jigging / tuning
From: Jack Campin
Date: 24 Jun 18 - 07:28 AM

Another Indian example

I think the videographer must have had computer assistance to create that score.


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Subject: RE: lilting / diddling / jigging / tuning
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Jun 18 - 09:04 AM


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Subject: RE: lilting / diddling / jigging / tuning
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Jun 18 - 09:05 AM

Not sure if this counts as PUNJABI JIGGING
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: lilting / diddling / jigging / tuning
From: GUEST,A
Date: 25 Jun 18 - 06:49 PM

Thanks Jack, that Indian video is fanstastic.
I'm interested in these related forms of music from around the world.

Thanks Jim for the throwback to that song and advert.
Don't think it's mouth music but it's good craic.


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Subject: RE: lilting / diddling / jigging / tuning
From: GUEST,A
Date: 27 Jun 18 - 04:59 AM

good story here about Cathal McConnell lilting a tune over the phone to Gary Hastings.

The tune became known as the Telephone reel.

http://journalofmusic.com/focus/telephone-reel


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Subject: RE: lilting / diddling / jigging / tuning
From: GUEST,A
Date: 03 Jul 18 - 11:37 AM

Calling all lilters and whistlers

Just saw an e-poster yesterday for a Mouth Music Festival which will take place in Dromore, Co. Tyrone in memory of Mickey McCann, who was a great lilter from Dromore.

The dates for the festival are July 20th-22nd, 2018.

Meaití Jó Shéamuis Ó Fátharta and Seamus Fay are two of the special guests.

Meaití Jó is talking about Lilting in ireland on the Friday Night.
People who knew Mickey McCann will also be speaking on the Friday night.

Meati Jo is giving a lilting workshop on Saturday morning.

There will be sessions all weekend.


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