BS: Superb Trooping the Colour

Subject: RE: BS: Superb Trooping the Colour
From: Gallus Moll
Date: 18 Jun 18 - 09:27 AM

not sure why Bonzo thinks Goatfell's comment is stupid?

I guess it is all a matter of taste - many earlier comments are from people who enjoy the spectacle - personally I don't care other than to consider the total waste of £££ when we live in a country where foodbanks are the norm!

For me a fair society should be the aim - if some people want to get dressed up and trot about on horses and wave flags then good luck to them (as long as they are not killing wild animals) but - let them fund it themselves!

Subject: RE: BS: Superb Trooping the Colour
From: peteglasgow
Date: 17 Jun 18 - 10:02 AM

longest queue i have been in for a tourist exhibit is the ex-royal palace at versailles. we citizens just don't need them but i suppose some love the idea of being ruled by their 'betters'

Subject: RE: BS: Superb Trooping the Colour
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 17 Jun 18 - 08:03 AM

"I can’t wait for Britain to be a republic and then we can spend money on real things"

Don't be stupid.

Subject: RE: BS: Superb Trooping the Colour
From: goatfell
Date: 17 Jun 18 - 07:56 AM

I can’t wait for Britain to be a republic and then we can spend money on real things

Subject: RE: BS: Superb Trooping the Colour
From: keberoxu
Date: 16 Jun 18 - 09:55 PM

My recollection tells me that a BBC documentary, years and years ago,
was aired in the US
-- otherwise I could never have viewed it --
going behind the scenes of Trooping the Colours.
The military at the top, whatever offices they held,
were in a little room helping to stuff each other into their outfits.
I have one little vivid splinter of memory
of two aging officers doing up each other's uniforms;
when the one had stopped fitting and fastening everything,
he said what sounded to my North American ears, like:

"There, sound as a button stick."    I have to have misheard that.

I also remember the remark that the elderly officers
have a great deal to endure in the Trooping
and that they would be very unhappy indeed
if they were left out from enduring it, or something like that.

That Spectator commentary referred to in the previous post,
sourced a journalist's phone call to Lord Guthrie's long-suffering spouse, asking for an update on the stricken officer's condition.

Kate Guthrie, referring to the metal cuirass that is part of her husband's uniform,
remarked upon the bruises to her husband's body
when the impact of his fall impressed the cuirass into him:
she's describing the fresh bruising to his skin:
"He looked as if he was wearing a pink frock."

Which, in thread drift fashion,
brings to mind the pink coats of the English hunt.

Subject: RE: BS: Superb Trooping the Colour
From: keberoxu
Date: 15 Jun 18 - 06:21 PM

Quote from The Spectator:

"The good news, as I write, is that Lord Guthrie probably has nothing worse than a broken collarbone.
He is sitting up and giving orders."

Subject: RE: BS: Superb Trooping the Colour
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 13 Jun 18 - 04:38 PM

Another good example of reasoned civil discussion from Bonzo I see...

Subject: RE: BS: Superb Trooping the Colour
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 13 Jun 18 - 03:07 PM

And you are supposed to call it Harare now.

Subject: RE: BS: Superb Trooping the Colour
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 13 Jun 18 - 03:05 PM

And no, Doug, I don't live in Salisbury. Why the .... would I want to?

Subject: RE: BS: Superb Trooping the Colour
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 13 Jun 18 - 02:43 PM

Gosh what praise. I have no idea whether Jeremy Corbyn does share my views, but I would be very proud if he did.

Subject: RE: BS: Superb Trooping the Colour
From: peteglasgow
Date: 13 Jun 18 - 02:40 PM

Keith, we will probably never know the full story of Ted Heath's private life and it's probably just as well. Nor will we ever know the full story about the 'russian poisoning' events. In both cases it is useless to speculate let alone talk with any certainty.
Though he seems a relatively benign figure these days for a Tory, we can say that in his role he would have not been much good for the people of this country. However, in those days his party did at least try to maintain the pretence that they were looking after us and not demolishing public services. For the current mob it is clearly their stated purpose.

Bonzo - when you set up a thread to fish for the sort of comments that some of us idiotic lefties are stupidly compelled to provide you with you could be a little more grateful, or at least well-mannered, when you get them. I may know nothing else but i'm not bad at spelling.
To suggest that our military could be engaged in doing useful tasks for the benefit of this country is not that daft. Every other arm of public sector is constantly being asked to justify their existence and need for funding. There is no reason why it should be any different for the military. Our security and prosperity depends on well-funded health, police, social care, education, prison and fire services - our military could do a bit more on this side of our borders and cut out the foreign adventures that are not good for anyone.

Subject: RE: BS: Superb Trooping the Colour
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 13 Jun 18 - 01:44 PM

peteaberdeen & david carter - I'm afraid your ridiculous views are very much those of the minority, very no-nothing views, very stupid views, very idiotic views - those of abbottshagger Corbyn I don't doubt!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Superb Trooping the Colour
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 Jun 18 - 01:39 PM

How many attempted murders did he commit?
How many streets contaminated for months?

Subject: RE: BS: Superb Trooping the Colour
From: peteglasgow
Date: 13 Jun 18 - 01:03 PM

i think ted heath lived in salisbury and would guess he was more of a threat to the people there than russia is.

Subject: RE: BS: Superb Trooping the Colour
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 Jun 18 - 12:23 PM

Rap., UK does not have any ceremonial units.
David, Russia proved itself a threat to Crimea and Ukraine, and is seen as a threat by the Baltic states which are part of Nato.
That threat is met by having Nato forces including British army on their borders.

Germany and other countries in Europe do spend less than us, relying on US to defend them.
That has been the situation since before the eighties when even you admit to Russia being a threat. Trump says he is unwilling to let that continue.

Subject: RE: BS: Superb Trooping the Colour
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 13 Jun 18 - 12:04 PM

Russia is no threat to me.

I take it you don't live in Salisbury then.

DC

Subject: RE: BS: Superb Trooping the Colour
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 13 Jun 18 - 10:36 AM

Russia is no threat to me. Hasn't been since the 1980s, if it even was then. Germany, Canada and Denmark spend far less than us, and, shockingly, we spend more than the NATO guideline! Even by NATO standards our spending is over the top. I would rather the money was spent on humanitarian projects overseas, which would improve the standing of the UK in the eyes of the world.

Subject: RE: BS: Superb Trooping the Colour
From: Raedwulf
Date: 13 Jun 18 - 09:18 AM

Define "most countries", David. The relevant direct comparisons are with other NATO countries & potential enemies only. What Jamaica or Japan might (or might not) spend on defence is beside the point. The sad fact is that defence spending is a necessity until Homo Sap somehow manages to abolish war, which we show no sign of doing.

Far from spending too much, what we spend is actually about right. There is supposedly a commitment within NATO to spend 2% of GDP on defence. According to this Jan 18 article, we spend 2.13%. Unfortunately, very few nations meet their commitments; Germany, Canada, & Denmark spend as little as 1-1.2% and others even less. In fact, as far as I can see, only Estonia, France, Greece, Poland, the UK & the US meet that 2%, and only Poland of those, who just meet the 2%, spends less than the UK. Only 3 others (Norway, Portugal, Turkey) spend more than 1.5%. This has a knock-on effect, because spending would be more efficient if we pooled resources more, but big spenders like the UK & France decline to do so when we are already - effectively - subsidising other nations' defence.

And by comparison, Russia spends a whopping 5.4% - most people, in the face of that, would probably consider it unwise to reduce spending at this point in time, I suggest!

Subject: RE: BS: Superb Trooping the Colour
From: Rapparee
Date: 13 Jun 18 - 09:12 AM

The US maintains its own ceremonial outfit, the 3rd Regiment ("Old Guard"). They guard graves, put flags on graves, stand around to greet foreign leaders, shoot salute cannons, play music while dressed in the uniforms of long ago, theoretically protect DC during wartime, and ride horses during funerals. Most countries maintain show units.

Subject: RE: BS: Superb Trooping the Colour
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 13 Jun 18 - 08:51 AM

They may be fighting for you but they are not fighting for me.

Subject: RE: BS: Superb Trooping the Colour
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 Jun 18 - 08:42 AM

When not actually fighting for us, they are busy training to fight for us.
The skills required are complex.

Subject: RE: BS: Superb Trooping the Colour
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 13 Jun 18 - 08:41 AM

We have a scheme for offenders called community payback. They do tasks exactly like that. I have no real objection to that. Its the bit where they are attacking other nations that I object to.

Subject: RE: BS: Superb Trooping the Colour
From: peteglasgow
Date: 13 Jun 18 - 08:34 AM

there are many ways our armed forces could be usefully employed for the good of our country when not attacking other nations. for example in protecting our environment and assisting our health and social services. If, for example, the army were to be employed in cleaning up our beaches and in a high profile anti-litter campaign, then their justified high standing and respect among the uk population may produce a real change in peoples' attitudes and behaviour.

Subject: RE: BS: Superb Trooping the Colour
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 13 Jun 18 - 08:29 AM

France, Germany, Italy, The Netherlands. Every major western country. The Yanks are always moaning about it.

Subject: RE: BS: Superb Trooping the Colour
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 13 Jun 18 - 08:07 AM

"I don't believe you"

Subject: RE: BS: Superb Trooping the Colour
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 13 Jun 18 - 07:39 AM

Most countries spend a far lower proportion of GDP on their military. So should we.

Subject: RE: BS: Superb Trooping the Colour
From: Jos
Date: 13 Jun 18 - 07:30 AM

A bit of dressing up in shiny uniforms and showing off for the queen is probably good for their morale - a pleasant change from practising marching up and down outside their barracks, anyway. And as Doug said, they are being paid anyway. A few extra tins of boot polish is neither here nor there.

Subject: RE: BS: Superb Trooping the Colour
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 13 Jun 18 - 04:51 AM

I am forced to pay for the British army to prance up and down.

We are forced to pay for the British army to defend the country. If it is going to be available when we need it then we have to pay for it in times of both war and peace. Prancing up and down is just an alternative to sitting twiddling their thumbs when there is no fighting to be done. The cost is the same either way.

DC

Subject: RE: BS: Superb Trooping the Colour
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 13 Jun 18 - 04:16 AM

Mind you, prancing up and down is preferable to other infinitely more damaging things that they could be, indeed have been, doing with my money.

Subject: RE: BS: Superb Trooping the Colour
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 13 Jun 18 - 04:04 AM

You pays your money and you takes your choice Bonzo. Difference is, I wasn't paying for the Red Army. I am forced to pay for the British army to prance up and down.

Subject: RE: BS: Superb Trooping the Colour
From: Raedwulf
Date: 13 Jun 18 - 03:41 AM

Hello, Rap! Yep, I stop before smallsword stuff; not my period. My interest just about extends to George Silver & no further. Part of the attraction of the longer blade is the longer hilt - light enough to be one-handed & quick, room to go two-handed if you feel the need. What, in later times, was labelled a bastard sword. but at the time was simply known as a long sword (as you know!). But we digress...

As for the TTC, yes completely pointless & ridiculous, like the Beefeaters, to name but one. All pageantry is. But it's part of being British & we're very, very good at it! :) Oh, plus it brings in rather more £££s than it costs, I suspect.

Subject: RE: BS: Superb Trooping the Colour
From: Jos
Date: 13 Jun 18 - 03:17 AM

From my point of view:

"it's all just silly and must be needlessly expensive. blokes in shiny shoes and matching tops marching in straight lines. eejits."

or
it's all just silly ... ... blokes (or women) in shorts and matching tops running around a field trying to kick a ball into a net (while trying to step more blokes or women kicking a ball into a net) ...

or
it's all just silly ... ... blokes (or women) in pringle sweaters walking around a large area of grass trying to hit a ball into a small hole ...

I could go on.

Subject: RE: BS: Superb Trooping the Colour
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 13 Jun 18 - 02:43 AM

"it's all just silly and must be needlessly expensive. blokes in shiny shoes and matching tops marching in straight lines. eejits."


"Yep. Twattery personified."


dum de dum de dum - no surprises in that lefty drivel!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Superb Trooping the Colour
From: Rapparee
Date: 12 Jun 18 - 10:11 PM

Raedwulf, I prefer a colichemarde, but that's later than you were discussing. For that period, I like a double edge, fuillered, about 28 to 30 inches for quick movement, balanced just a couple inches forward of the hilt and with a relatively heavy pommel. Sharp. A long seax is good as a backup.

Subject: RE: BS: Superb Trooping the Colour
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 Jun 18 - 08:19 PM

Yep. Twattery personified.

Subject: RE: BS: Superb Trooping the Colour
From: peteglasgow
Date: 12 Jun 18 - 08:11 PM

it's all just silly and must be needlessly expensive. blokes in shiny shoes and matching tops marching in straight lines. eejits.

Subject: RE: BS: Superb Trooping the Colour
From: Raedwulf
Date: 12 Jun 18 - 06:27 PM

I never said the drums were light, Gnomad, only that they're not as heavy as people initially assume. Here's a little sidelight that might enlighten... Or possibly simply bore!

I am a somewhat lapsed re-enactor & medieval martial artist. Yes, knights were martial artists, not merely armoured thugs blindly hacking away. The much reviled knight was as skilled & fit as the much revered samurai. Anyway! I know a little bit, and I've heard some stories too. "How much does this sword weigh?" has had some startling answers over the years, all the way up to 40lbs for a two-hander. There is a difference between a re-enactor's weapon (profiled to be blunt; cannot be sharpened) and the Real Thing (cannot safely be blunted; the profile of the blade would not allow it, even if you were inclined to vandalise!). My preferred sharp has a 34" blade & weighs 2lb 10oz; my normal blunt has a 32" blade and weighs about 3lb 4 oz. The heaviest sword I own is a shorter Dark Age replica that weighs 4lb.

Lesson One - people are generally pretty poor at putting numbers to a weight & tend to over-estimate. Lesson Two. One of my re-enactor mates regularly represented himself as Edward IV (I was doing Wars of the Roses stuff). He claimed (him not being always the most believable of people!) that his armour was the best replica of Eddie's that he could get made & weighed 104lb. Harness (not plate armour!) at that period was not fully plated. There was a good deal of chain mail still involved. And modern materials are lighter for the same strength, so most modern re-enactors are automatically cheating. Anyway! Consider a 25kg sack of spuds. You can't hold that at arms' length for long, and even clutching it to your chest, it's a weight. Carried over your shoulder? More than one author said that a knight ought to be able to vault into the saddle. You might have to change horses on the battlefield, the horse might not have a stirrup, etc.

The point being that it is not weight per se, but the distribution of weight that has the most significant impact on your mobility. Full harness is little weight if you are trained to it, but a sack of spuds badly placed... Etcetera. The drums the drum horse carries are situated more or less on the withers i.e. on the shoulders. I'm no equine expert, but it seems to me that that's the strongest (vertical) load bearing point on a horse, more or less above the front legs? And I don't doubt that the harness they hang on is designed to be as efficient as possible through many long years of experience. Which means not tiring the horse more than can be avoided!

There's also the fact that, these days, the Household Cavalry exclusively use Shires & Clydesdales for their drum horses - big horses, heavy horses, draught horses (a pair of Shires can comfortably draw, from a standing start, loads that weigh in the tens of tons; in 1924, a pair drew an estimated starting load of 45 tons!). It wouldn't have been that way originally, not least because, originally, the breeds wouldn't have been what they are now, nor recognised as such. But the fact of the matter is that, collectively, I doubt there are any better cared for horses in the UK than those of the Household Cavalry. And a few seconds of thought will leave you thinking "this must be so!"* ;-)

*NB: I said "collectively"; not individually! ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Superb Trooping the Colour
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 12 Jun 18 - 05:49 PM

I prefer the British Army.

Subject: RE: BS: Superb Trooping the Colour
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 12 Jun 18 - 04:05 PM

I think the Red Army were rather better at that kind of think Bonzo. Sad they aren't around any more. But I have no doubt that there will be a fantastic parade for the returning hero in Pyongyang later this week.

Subject: RE: BS: Superb Trooping the Colour
From: Senoufou
Date: 12 Jun 18 - 03:40 PM

When I was a Girl Guide, our Captain took us all up to London on the Tube to stand in The Mall and watch the Trooping of the Colour processions go past. It was absolutely magical. I was so excited and moved I was practically speechless (a rare occurrence) and saluted like anything.

I can't work out why I've become so jaundiced over the years and lost all enthusiasm for the royal family. It all seems so outdated now, and a bit ridiculous.

Subject: RE: BS: Superb Trooping the Colour
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 12 Jun 18 - 03:40 PM

Nobody can put on a military parade like the British Army!!

Subject: RE: BS: Superb Trooping the Colour
From: Senoufou
Date: 12 Jun 18 - 03:18 PM

Ah yes, gnomad, I'd forgotten those kettledrums are actually silver.
Must be worth a fortune!

Subject: RE: BS: Superb Trooping the Colour
From: gnomad
Date: 12 Jun 18 - 03:01 PM

The horses are carrying quite a weight, see here drum horses page
Incidentally, silver drums (rather than steel) makes one wonder how much they would cost to replace?

Subject: RE: BS: Superb Trooping the Colour
From: Senoufou
Date: 12 Jun 18 - 08:40 AM

Ah, that's very reassuring Raedwulf.

I might get one of those satellite-dish hats! However, my Norfolk neighbours would say, "Wotever hev yew got on yer hid? Yew look a roit dolly, mawther!"

Subject: RE: BS: Superb Trooping the Colour
From: Raedwulf
Date: 12 Jun 18 - 08:30 AM

I doubt the drums weigh as much as you think, Sen (they are, like Boris the Clown, mostly air, after all! ;-) ). Besides they're horses, and big horses at that; very powerful animals. Look at it like this, if TTC caused distress to horses, drum or otherwise, it would not be as it is.

Remember that once upon a time, the cavalry rode horses into battle. Sheer pragmatism, even if there's no affection, dictates that no cavalryman would willingly harm his mount unless necessary - his life depends upon it! So TTC would not be as it is if the result had ever been horses regularly keeling over afterwards. Cavalry mounts are expensive - pragmatism again! ;-)

R

P.S. That style of hat has been around rather longer than satellite dishes, I believe...

Subject: RE: BS: Superb Trooping the Colour
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 12 Jun 18 - 08:09 AM

Satelite dishes on their heads - I like it!!

Subject: RE: BS: Superb Trooping the Colour
From: Senoufou
Date: 12 Jun 18 - 04:02 AM

His feet were trapped in his stirrups as he fainted and fell, so he was hanging head-down. Good thing the horse stayed calm.

Those poor animals have to stand for two hours even before the thing starts, as they're 'in position' for ages. They get them groomed and prepared at dawn. The huge drum horses have the weight of a rider and two massive steel drums on their backs all that time. I've always though that this is cruel.

I wonder why the younger royal ladies have taken to wearing satellite dishes stuck sideways to their heads? Most peculiar choice of hat.

Subject: RE: BS: Superb Trooping the Colour
From: Joe Offer
Date: 11 Jun 18 - 10:46 PM

I think it's nice that the Royals put on such a colorful show for us. Please thank Mr. & Mrs. Royal on our behalf, Steve Shaw. ;-)
https://people.com/royals/meghan-markle-philip-traecy-hat-trouping-the-colour-rewear/

Subject: RE: BS: Superb Trooping the Colour
From: keberoxu
Date: 11 Jun 18 - 09:49 PM

I see the still photos, Senoufou.
Wow. Plummeting down headfirst, that's awful.

Subject: RE: BS: Superb Trooping the Colour
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Jun 18 - 06:52 PM

Whatever stirs yer loins, Bonzo, whatever stirs yer loins.