Origins: Child Ballads in Ireland

Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads in Ireland
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Jun 18 - 03:47 AM

Sorry - didn't quite finish that point
Walter Pardon once sang us his version of 'Van Diemen's Land' (with the refrain at the end of each verse)
At the end he commented "That's a long old song, but it was a long, old journey" - in my opinion, a perfect example of a singer involved in his song
Jim

Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads in Ireland
From: Liberty Boy
Date: 18 Jun 18 - 10:29 AM

Jim, In his book “Narrative Singing in Ireland” published in 1993 Hugh Shields says “Only two ballads seem to have gone into Irish retaining something of the ballad character”. He then names them as “Cá rabhais ar Feadh an Lae uaim” a version of Lord Randal (Child 12) collected in Roscommon in 1905 and “Muire agus Naomh Ioseph” The Cherry Tree Carol (Child 54) collected in 1897 also in Roscommon. Both edited by Douglas Hyde. Perhaps Muire agus Naomh Ioseph should be included in your list?

Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads in Ireland
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Jun 18 - 10:45 AM

Thanks J
I know that
Since then, Seven Drunken Nights' and more recently, 'The Two Sisters' have been suggested
Thanks for 'The Cherry Tree Carol' - that's the one I forgot
I don't think there are any recorded song versions

Best to Con Fada on Friday, would have loved to be there but Hotels are as precious as final tickets these days
(ditto for Rosie)
Jim

Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads in Ireland
From: willyminnix
Date: 18 Jun 18 - 09:32 PM

Hi Jim,

I am wanting to learn the Irish versions of the child ballads. Did a list ever get compiled? I'd be happy to know what the Irish names are for these ballads?

Thanks

Willy

Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads in Ireland
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Jun 18 - 03:15 AM

Hi Willie
I'm getting there
The ballads I have located so far are below (Irish language versions in red
I'm chasing up a version of The Two Sisters and have located Douglas Hyde's text only version of The Cherry Tree Carol in one of our books - in English - I'm going to find if there is an original Irish language text and a tune today - I don't know of a recording
Will keep people inforned
Jim

02 Elfin Knight (Tri-Coloured House) Mrs Mary Kate McDonagh, Wexford
03 False Knight on the Road, Frank Quinn, Co, Tyrone
04 Lady Isobel and the Elf Knight (Pretty Polly) Bill Cassidy Wexford Traveller
12 Lord Randal (Buried in Kilkenny) Mary Delaney Tipperery Traveller
12 Lord Randal (Henry My Son) Pop's Johnny Connors, Wexford Traveller
12 Lord Randal (An Tighearna Randal in Irish ) Joe Heaney Connemara, Co. Galway
13 Edward (Cain and Abel)'Pops'Johnny Connors, Wexford Traveller
20 Cruel Mother (Pat MacNamara, Co Clare
20 Cruel Mother (children' version) Peggy McCarthy Traveller child (London/Kerry)
21 The Well Below the Valley John Reilly Roscommon Traveller
24 Bonnie Annie, (Green Banks of Yarrow) Mrs Maguire, Belfast
39 Tam Linn, Saturday Night is Hallowe'en Night, Eddie Butcher, Co. Derry
44 Two Magicians (Blackbirds and Thrushes) Charles O'Boyle Belfast
46 Captain Wedderburn's (Mr Woodburren's) Courtship Tom Lenihan
53 Lord Bateman (Lord Baker) Joe Connealy Co Clare)
54 Cherry Tree Carol Mrs Maguire, Belfast
56 Dives and Lazerus Martiln Lyons (unkown)
68 Young Hunting (Lady Margaret) Martin McDonagh, Roscommon Traveller
74 Fair Margaret and Sweet William (The Old Armchair) Martin Howley, Clare)
75 Lord Lovel (Lord Levett) Tom Lenihan Clare
75 Lord Donegal Keane Sisters, Galway
76 Lord Gregory Ollie Conway, Clare
77 Sweet William's Ghost Sandy McConnell, Fermanagh
84 Barbara Allen ( St James' Hospital), Tom Lenihan, Co. Clare
87 Prince Robert (Lord Abore and Mary Flynn), Frank Feeney, Co,. Dublin
92 (appen) Bonny Bee Horn Lowlands of Holland Paddy Tunney, Fermanagh
95 (app.) Maid Freed from the Gallows Derry Gaol Sarah Makem, Armagh
99 Johnny Scott Mary Baylon, Co. Louth
100 Willie o'Winsbury (John Barden) Mary McGrath Co. Wexford Traveller;
106 Famous Flower of Serving Men (My Brother Built Me a Bancy Bower) Mary Delaney, Tipperary Traveller
112 The Baffled Knight, John Campbell, Co. Cavan
155 Little Sir Hugh, John Byrne, Donegal
178 Dowie Dens of Yarrow The Dewy Glens of Yarrow Brigid Murphy, Armagh
200 Gypsie Laddie (Seven Yellow Gypsies) Paddy Doran
200 Gypsy Laddie (Dark-Eyed Gypsy) Joe Holmes, Antrim
209 Geordie (The Jersey) Mrs Maguire, Ulster
209 Geordie (Georgie) Mrs Casey, Co Clare
221 Katherine Jaffrey) Green Wedding Nora Cleary, Co. Clare
243 Demon Lover (The Banks of the Sweet Viledee) Frank Brown, Roscommon
248 The Grey Cock (Biscayo) Bill Cassidy, Wexford Traveller
272 Suffolk Miracle (Holland Handkerchie)Tom Lenihan, Co. Clare
274 Our Goodman Thomas Moran, Co. Leitrim
274 Our Goodman (in Irish) Peigin is Peadar Joe Heaney Galway
275 Get Up and Bar the Door (tale version) (Go For the Water( Mikeen McCarthy, Kerry Traveller
277, Gaberlunzie Man (Linkin' O'er the Lea) Chambers Sisters, Fermanagh)
278 Farmer's Curst Wife (The Old Woman From Connor) Margaret Dunne, Cavan
281 Keach in the Creel (Cuchie, Cuchie Coo Go Way Jamesie McCarthy
283 The Crafty Farmer (John and the Farmer) Packie Byrne, Donegal
293 Jock o' Hazelgreen, Packie Manus Byrne, Donegal

Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads in Ireland
From: GUEST,willyminnix
Date: 19 Jun 18 - 10:46 AM

Thanks so much Jim, that's a big help for my research. Have a great day.

WIlly

Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads in Ireland
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Jun 18 - 11:54 AM

"Have a great day."
Thanks for that Willie - so far, so good - it hasn't rained yet!!
If you keep an eye on the thread I'll let you know when the project's finished (if you want a copy, that is)
Jim

Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads in Ireland
From: Richie
Date: 19 Jun 18 - 12:29 PM

Hi Jim

I'm working on the Child ballads now and perhaps can help. I'm on Twa Sisters and know that Child T is Irish, although only one stanza.

Here's the excerpt from: The Ballad Book: a selection of the choicest British ballads; edited by William Allingham 1865

Hibernian versions, we may mention as specimens those of "Binnorie" and "Lamkin," sung (among other ballads) by a nurse in the family of a relative of ours in Ireland. They are chiefly remarkable for corruption of language and neglect of rhyme. "Lamkin " begins thus : —

As my lord and my lady were out walking one day,
Says my lord to my lady, "Beware of Lamkin I"
"O why should I fear him, or any such man,
When my doors are well barr'd and my windows well pinn'd?         
When my doors," &c.

But there are some good points : —

O keep your gold and silver, it will do you some good,
It will buy you a coffin when you are dead.
There's blood in the kitchen, and blood in the hall,
And the young Mayor of England lies dead by the wall.

The version of "Binnorie," called "Sister, dear Sister," and sung to a peculiar and beautiful air, begins: —

Sister, dear sister, where shall we go play?
   Cold blows the wind, and the wind blows lowy
We shall go to the salt sea's brim,
   And the wind blows cheerily around us, High ho.'

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads in Ireland
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Jun 18 - 01:40 PM

Hi Richie - always been an admirer of your work on Ballads
'Twa Sisters'
The Kidson version from 'an Irishman in Liverpool' has six verses
As far as ballads I can't find versions of, I haven't really decided how far I'm going to chase this up - I would like to get this folder out as soon as possible to exploit the interest generated by the 'Man Woman and Child' project.
I am chasing up claims that the Irish language 'Mermaid' is a version of it, other than that, I doubt if I'll come across another
When this is ready, I'll follow up some ideas I have had for a long time - such as searching out American ballad singers who came from Ireland 'such as the one who sang 'Queen Eleanor's Confession', included in British Ballads from Maine'
I'll accept any help I can get and will be happy to pass on anything I find to whoever is interested

Regarding corrupted texts - many of the ballads here came from Travellers who couldn't read or write, so they sang what they heard
We gathered a fair amout of information from a ballad seller who described the process of reciting his father's songs over the counter to a printer who then produced tha ballad sheets (two chances of 'Chinese Whispers' taking place.

It's often forgotten that in many cases, these ballads were gathered from communities where English wasn't the first language and reading and writing skills were rudimentary
More later - spuds to be peeled!
Jim

Subject: Lyr Add: THREE LADIES PLAYING AT BALL
From: Richie
Date: 19 Jun 18 - 02:10 PM

Hi Jim,

I think you are looking for recorded Irish versions of Child Ballads, sorry. Child 10J is also from Ireland, here's the text from Notes & Queries:

"Three Ladies Playing At Ball" (4th S. iv. 517.)—I was familiar in childhood in the north of Ireland with this ballad: now, alas! quite forgotten, except a line or two and its refrain, which diners from those recorded in "N. & Q.": —

"There were two ladies playing ball,
Hey, ho, my Nannie O!
A great lord came to court them all:
The swan she does swim bonnie O!

"He gave to the first a golden ring,
Hey, ho, my Nannie O!
He gave to the second a far better thing,
The swan she does swim bonnie, O!"

The drowning of the sister occurs in the millstream; and the finding of the body by—whom I know not—a harper or the true knight: —

"He made a harp of her breast bone,
Hey, ho, my Nannie O!"

The harper takes it to court, and —

"He set it down upon a stone,
Hey, ho, my Nannie O!
And it began to play its lone [alone],
The swan she does swim bonnie, O!"

Cietera daunt.

* * * *

Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads in Ireland
From: Richie
Date: 19 Jun 18 - 03:43 PM

Hi,

Yes, I've found eleven Irish related versions of Child 10 including the one by Kidson (of which there is a variant text) and the two I posted. Perhaps the most famous not mentioned is Child C: "The Cruel Sister" a composite reworked by Scott in 1802 from the recitation of an old (Irish) woman by Miss Charlotte Brookes (circa late 1700s) and Mrs. Brown's Scottish version (Child B). The fourteen stanza Irish version appears in stanzas 5, 6, 10, 12, 20, 22- 27 but Scott also made changes to other stanzas and these may not be original. The original 14 stanza version as collected is unknown- but is perhaps in Scott's papers.

I'm not sure if you want all the info on the 11 versions, some are melodically related.

Unfortunately I'm only up to Child 10 (British versions) and Brian Peters posted the Irish versions of Child 3.

This seems to be outside the scope of your study of Irish recordings of Child ballads. Let me know if you want more info as I go through the rest of the Child ballads.

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads in Ireland
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Jun 18 - 03:19 AM

"This seems to be outside the scope of your study of Irish recordings of Child ballads."
It's always been my intention to do a full examination of the narrative songs of Ireland, particularly the ones that came from outside, so I would be grateful for any information anybody can let me have
This present project is concerned with nudging others into an interest into Child Ballads following on from the splendid work done by Aileen Lambert and Mich Fortune a few years ago with their 'Man, Woman and Child' project.

I hope that a group of singable ballads based on live recordings might just inspire that interest - Irish instrumental music has been guaranteed a two-generation (at least) future by the hordes of young people now taking it up and playing like 'old masters and mistresses' - singing hasn't fared quite as well
It shouldn't take me to long to complete this - then it's back to the rest of it - so any help is welcome
I would like a well-sung version of the few I have not managed to get yet, but they may not exist

I've always been convinced that th future of our music rests on taking all the work everybody is doing or has done and get it under one accessible umbrella rather than leave it scattered on hundreds of shelves.

While having a very rich and all-encompassing song tradition, Ireland has a poor record in publishing - tHere is no comprehensive song collection covering all of Ireland, for instance.
Shortly before he died, Tom Munnelly was given the go-ahead by his employers at U.C.D. to publish such a work based on his own collecting work - unfortunately, he fell ill and died before he could make a start.
The idea was shelved a decade ago - what a fitting memorial that would be to Tom's memory - and what a service to Irish traditional song
A dream
Jim Carroll

Subject: Lyr Add: THE SWAN SWIMS BONNY O
From: Richie
Date: 20 Jun 18 - 02:47 PM

Hi Jim,

You're awesome and you've done some fine Irish recordings, TY. If I can help with the Tom Munnelly project let me know.

Here are the details of the Irish fragment of Child 10, since it has a melody it could be learned and recorded in a few minutes with the original text. The first stanza is obviously the last. The "Nanny O" refrain is the main identifier for Irish versions of Child 10 of which several date back to the late 1700s. Here's the text:

The Swan Swims Bonny O- sung by Irishman W.H. Lunt of Liverpool in 1892, who got it from an old Irish woman when he was young. Text and melody Frank Kidson Manuscript Collection (FK/2/3).

And there does sit my false sister Anne,
Hey ho, my Nanny, O,
Who drowned me for the sake of a man,
Where the swan swims so bonny, O.

The farmer's daughter being dressed in red,
Hey ho, my Nanny, O,
She went for some water to make her bread,
Where the swan swims so bonny, O.

They laid her on the bank to dry,
Hey ho, my Nanny, O,
There came a harper passing by,
Where the swan swims so bonny, O.

He made a harp of her breast-bone,
Hey ho, my Nanny, O,
And the harp began to play alone,
Where the swan swims so bonny, O.

He made harp-pins of her fingers so fair,
Hey ho, my Nanny, O,
He made his harp strings of her golden hair.
Where the swan swims so bonny, O.

* * * *

Richie

Subject: Lyr Add: TWA SISTERS
From: Richie
Date: 21 Jun 18 - 02:58 PM

Hi,

Of the dozen or so Irish versions of Child 10, this Scoto-Irish version is by far the most complete and it's also unknown and has not been published or access -- and there is a recording!!!

From the James Madison Carpenter Collection, JMC/1/4/Q, pp. 07726-07727. This is a third different type of ballad from the Collection. This Irish refrain was reportedly heard by Cunningham and published by Scott in the early 1800s. The opening stanza is similar to the 2nd Irish version known by Willie Mathieson in which skin color is immediately established as the murder motive. The playing of the song, "The Swan Swims Bonnie, O" from the harps reveals that the drowned sister was killed by her remaining sister who is then burned.

Twa Sisters- sung by Mrs Mary Stewart Robertson, 6 Auchreddie Road, New Deer, Scotland, 1932, learned from her mother, never saw in print.

1. There wis twa sisters lived in yon glen,
Heigh, ho my nannie O!
Een o them wis fair, an' the other wis din,
An' the swan swims bonnie, O.

2. "Sister dear sister, come an' tak a walk,"
Heigh, ho my nannie O!
"An' ye'll see winders afore ye come bak,"
An' the swan swims bonnie, O.

3. "Pit your fit (feet) on yonder marble stone,"
Heigh, ho my nannie O!
An' sae slyly she dung her in,
An' the swan swims sae bonnie, O.

4. "Sister O siter, lend me yer richt hand,"
Heigh, ho my nannie O!
"An' I'll mak ye lady o a' my land,
An' I'll stand ahin the door when the lord comes in,"
An' the swan swims sae bonnie, O.

5. "Sister dear sister lend me yer hand,"
Heigh, ho my nannie O!
"I didn't come here to lend you my hand,
It's because you are fair, an' I am din,"
An' the swan swims sae bonnie, O.

6. Noo the millert had a dochter an' her bein' a maid,
Heigh, ho my nannie O!
An' she went oot for water to bake some breid,
An' the swan swims bonnie, O.

7. "O father there swims in yer dam,
Heigh, ho my nannie O!
"Either a maid or a milk-white swan,"
An' the swan swims sae bonnie, O.

8. The millert he gaed oot an' lat off his dam
Heigh, ho my nannie O!
An' they laid her on a thorn for to dry,
An' the swan swims bonnie, O.

9. The king's best harper he'd been passin' by,
Heigh, ho my nannie O!
He's cut off her fingers sae sma',
For to mak pins for evermair,
An' the swan swims bonnie, O.

10. The king's second best harper he'd been passin' by,
Heigh, ho my nannie O!
An' he's ta'en three tits o her bonnie gowd hair,
For to mak strin gs for his harp evermair
An' the swan swims bonnie, O.

11. The third best harper he wis passin' by,
Heigh, ho my nannie O!
An' he's cut oot her breistbane an' a harp he his made,
An' the swan swims bonnie, O.

12. An' the three went up tee the king's hall door,
Heigh, ho my nannie O!
An' they played an' they played an' they far better played,
An' aye the overcome o' the song,
"The swan swims bonnie, O."

13. Noo the king's dochter she came doon the stairs,
Heigh, ho my nannie O!
Says, "Harpers, harpers, change your tune,
An I'll gie you my gowd an' my land,"
An' the swan swims bonnie, O.

14. They say, "O fair lady, we canna change wir tune,"
Heigh, ho my nannie O!
"We canna change wir tune, till we be deen,"
An' the swan swims bonnie, O.

15. Doon cam her mother and her oldest brother,
Heigh, ho my nannie O!
Says, "Harpers harpers, play ower the tune,
An' we'll make ye lords fan (when) ye are done
An' the swan swims bonnie, O.

16. They've ta'en her oot an' they've kill't her by fire,
Heigh, ho my nannie O!
An' they've burned her tee the harper's desire,
An' the swan swims sae bonnie, O.

* * * *

Richie

Subject: Lyr Add: THE WELL BELOW THE VALLEY-O
From: GUEST
Date: 22 Jun 18 - 04:55 AM

It's me, Kevin. (I can't post when I add my name, I don't know why)

- To Richie:

The text from Mary Stewart Robertson reminds me of Jock White's version, another very full text:
http://www.springthyme.co.uk/ballads/balladtexts/10_TwaSisters_2.shtml

A recording is available on "Hamish Henderson Collects, Volume 2" Kyloe 110:
http://www.mustrad.org.uk/reviews/hamish2.htm

See also Betsy Whyte's version, from the same family tradition:
http://tobarandualchais.co.uk/en/fullrecord/82953/23

But these are Scottish, not Irish variants.

- To Jim Carroll:

I have looked through Bronson's "Traditional Tunes of the Child Ballads, Vol. IV" and noticed that John Reilly's text of "The Well Below The Valley-O" in the book is more complete than the text as he sings it in the recording on "The Bonny Green Tree" LP.

Is there a second sound recording of John Reilly singing this song that is more complete than the well-known one?

Here's the full text as given in Bronson:

A gentleman he was passing by.
He axed a drink as he got dry
At the well below the valley O.
Green grows the lily O
Right among the bushes O.

My cup it is in overflow
And if I do stoop I may fall in
At the well below the valley O.
Green grows the lily O
Right among the bushes O.

Well if your true love was passing by
You'd fill him a drink if he got dry
At the well below the valley O.
Green grows, etc.

She swore by grass and swore by corn
That her true love was never born.
I say, fair maiden, you've swore in wrong
At the well below the valley O.
Green grows, etc.

Well if you're a man of that noble fame
You'll tell to me the father o' them
At the well below the valley O.
Green grows, etc.

Two o' them by your father dear
At the well below the valley O.
Green grows, etc.

Two more o' them came by your uncle Dan
At the well below the valley O.
Green grows, etc.

Another one by your brother John
At the well below the valley O.
Green grows, etc.

Well if you're a man of the noble fame
You'll tell to me what happened then
At the well below the valley O.
Green grows, etc.

There was two o' them buried by the kitchen fire
At the well below the valley O.
Green grows, etc."

Two more o' them buried by the stable door
At the well below the valley O.
Green grows, etc.

The other was buried by the well
At the well below the valley O.
Green grows, etc.

Well if you're a man of the noble fame
You'll tell to me what will happen mysel'
At the well below the valley O.
Green grows, etc.

You'll be seven long years a-ringin' a bell
At the well below the valley O.
Green grows, etc.

You'll be seven more a-portin' in Hell
At the well below the valley O.
Green grows, etc.

I'll be seven long years a-ringin' the bell
But the Lord above might save my soul
From portin' in Hell
At the well below the valley O.
Green grows the lily O
Right among the bushes O.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Here's the shorter text from "The Bonny Green Tree":

For a gentleman was passin' by
He axed a drink as he got dry
At the well below below the valley-o
Green grows the lilies-o right among the bushes-o

My cup it is in overflow
An' if I do stoop I may fall in
At the well below below the valley-o
Green grows the lilies-o right among the bushes-o

Well if your true love was passin' by
You'd fill him a drink if he got dry
At the well below below the valley-o
Green grows the lilies-o right among the bushes-o

Well if you're a man of noble fame
You'll tell to me the father o' them
At the well below below the valley-o
Green grows the lilies-o right among the bushes-o

Two of them came by your uncle Dan
At the well below below the valley-o
Green grows the lilies-o right among the bushes-o

Another one by your brother John
At the well below below the valley-o
Green grows the lilies-o right among the bushes-o

Well if you're a man of a noble 'steem
You'll tell to me what'll happen mysel'
At the well below below the valley-o
Green grows the lilies-o right among the bushes-o

You'll be seven year a-ringin' a bell
At the well below the valley
Green grows the lilies-o all amongst the bushes

You'll be seven more a-portin' in Hell
At the well below the valley
Green grows the lilies-o all amongst the bushes

I'll be seven long years a-ringing a bell
But the Lord above may save my soul
From portin' in Hell
At the well below the valley
Green grows the lilies-o all amongst the bushes

Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads in Ireland
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Jun 18 - 07:21 AM

John Reilly was an interesting singer - pity he didn't live long enough to be recorded in depth
He sand a couple of versions of Lord Gregory too (Lord Googly being one, according to Tom)
In some ways, he appeared to bear out David Buchan's theory of their being no set texts to ballads, t=rather, they were "re-created" each time they were sung
"(I can't post when I add my name, I don't know why)"
Why not become a member Kevin?

I really am grateful for all this information on Irish versions of ballads - it's all being filed for use when this sound-based bit is completed.

I wonder if people have an opinion on an addition to this
We have a number of often surprising Irish versions of narrative songs we have collected or acquired over the years
Among the first we recorded was 'Roger the Miller (Father's Grey Mare)' up to a version of 'The Maid With The Box on her Head' recorded from a 96 years old farmer a couple of years ago

I have decided to put up some 'ballads' Child might have missed, (Widow of Westmorland, Constant Farmers Son... et al) - would the songs be of interest to anybody?
Jim

Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads in Ireland
From: Richard Mellish
Date: 22 Jun 18 - 10:33 AM

Richie mentioned
> … skin color is immediately established as the murder motive.

It could be skin colour, but hair colour seems more likely. Fair skin was certainly valued at one time, but the contrast is generally reckoned to have been between rich people who spent most of their time indoors and poor people who spent a lot of time working outdoors and so got suntanned. Two sisters would probably have had very similar lifestyles, so their skin colours would have been much the same.

Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads in Ireland
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Jun 18 - 11:03 AM

@It could be skin colour, @
It could also be a reference to complexion, brown being an identification of class (used to working in the open air)
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads in Ireland
From: Richie
Date: 22 Jun 18 - 03:06 PM

Hi,

This is an example, one of many. From "Binorie" sung by William McKenzie of Kennethmont, Aberdeenshire, about 1931:

6 "It was not for your yellow gold that I dang ye in,
      Binorie, aye and Binorie, O,
Because you're so very white, love, an' I'm so very din,
You're the bonnie millert's lassie o Binorie, O."

Motive: It's not the gold or the love of the bonnie miller laddie, the elder sister can't compete because her skin is 'din' and her fair sister's skin is 'white.'

Richie

Subject: Lyr Add: BAILE LEO / BHAILE LEO
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Jun 18 - 04:19 AM

This is the song Hiugh Shields included in his 'Folk Ballads from Donegal and Derry as an Irish language version of 'The Two Sisters
Jim Carroll

BAILE LEO

- Tiocfaidh m'athair amarach
Anuas chun an chladaigh, a hórú,
'S gheobhaidh sémise, mo hiúirí ceo,
'Mo bhradán bheag bháite i mBaile Leo.
in Baile Leo.

Bhí leinbh bán agam, a shíoru,
Bhí leinbh bán agam, a hírú,
Bhí leinbh bán agam, mo húirí ceo,
'gCionn a thrí ráithe i mBaile Leo.
quarters in Baile Leo.

Nach iomaí bean óg, a shíorú,
Thógfas-sa m'áit, a horu:
Fuinneogaí gloinne, a húirí ceo,
Agus rúmanaí bána i mBaile Leo?
rooms in Baile Leo?
as v. 2 (as verse 2)

Tabhair mo bheannacht, a shíoriú,
Innseoir mo mháthair, a hóriú,
Tabhair mo bheannacht, a hiúirí ceo,
Innseoir shíol Éabha i mBaile Leo.
in Baile Leo.

Translation
My father will come
tomorrow Down to the
shore And get me,
A little drowned salmon,

I had a little child
And (another) little child
And (another) little child
After three

Are there not many young women
Would take my place: Glass
windows And white
Take my blessing To my mother,
Take my blessing To the seed of Eve

Spoken: Well, ansin amhrán ... (?) cainnt ann fo Bhaile Leo. Do you see, beirt bhan thíos sa chladach ag baint duilisc nó carraigín am amháin. Is (bhí an) bhí an bheirt i ndiaidh fear amháin. Agus ba mhaith leithe deireadh a chur leis an bhean eile, agus cha raibh a fhios aici cé b'fhearr dí a dhéanamh. Bhí triúir pháiste aici, ag bean acu agus cha raibh ... (?) ar bith ag an bhean eile: agus í i ndiaidh an fhear s'aici-se. Agus ba mhaith leithe deireadh a chur leithe-se. Agus ansin cha raibh a fhios aici cé b'fhearr dí a dhéanamh. Agus nuair a fuair sí seans uirthi, bhí an ghruag fada uirthi agus cheangail sí an ghruag don leathach a bhí ag snámh sa chladach (ar an chnoc) ar an chloch. Agus d'fhág si ansin í go dtí (go) gur báitheadh i.

This is a song... talk in it about Baile Leo. Do you see, two women were down at the shore gathering dulse or carrageen one time. And both of them were after the one man. And she would have liked to get rid of the other woman, and she didn't know the best thing to do. One of the women had three children and the other had none..., and she was after the woman's husband. And she wanted to get rid of the woman. And she didn't know the best thing to do. And when she got a chance, the woman's hair was long and she tied it to the seaweed that was floating on the rock. And she left her there till she was drowned.

Cf. The two sisters {Child no. 10). Sung and spoken by Willy Duggan, East end, Tory, among friends and visitors in his brother-in-law's house, Middle town, Tory, on the evening of Saturday 30 August 1969. This song is very well known in the Hebrides, where many longer texts have been collected. These present an alternating dialogue between two women, married and single, sisters perhaps or a mistress and servant, the married woman drowning while the other, out of desire for her husband, refuses to save her. Probably the strange and terrifying idea of murder effected by tying a victim's hair to the seaweed at ebb tide was suggested to the maritime Gaelic poet by the knots and plaits mentioned in some versions of the ballad in English. The Gaelic song completely transforms the mode of narration; yet it leaves the theme unchanged and was undoubtedly inspired by the ballad. Sometimes used for cloth-waulking in the Hebrides, its common title there is A' bhean eudach (The jealous woman).

Like the text, the pentatonic Donegal air came from Scotland: compare for example the first air given by Frances Tolmie in Journal of the Folk-Song Society V (1911) 205-7. Several other texts have been noted in Donegal, and in Munster there are traces of a further adaptation of the song in Irish.

Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads in Ireland
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 23 Jun 18 - 04:59 AM

If anyone is keen, I couldn't help noticing a copy of Hiugh Shields 'Folk Ballads from Donegal and Derry appearing on ebay just now.

Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads in Ireland
From: GUEST,RA
Date: 23 Jun 18 - 05:30 AM

Excellent thread. Thanks all you knowledgeable and diligent people for your work and generosity!

Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads in Ireland
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Jun 18 - 02:44 AM

"If anyone is keen, I couldn't help noticing a copy of Hugh Shields 'Folk Ballads from Donegal and Derry appearing on ebay just now."
If anybody has problems obtaining this important album please contact me
This, along with Munnelly's and Shields 'Early Ballads in Ireland'(1968-1985) and Hugh's book, 'Narrative Singing in Ireland' are wonderful introductions to very much under-rated Irish ballad singing.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads in Ireland
From: GUEST,Kevin W.
Date: 25 Jun 18 - 05:41 AM

Jim,
I'll give it a try and send Joe Offer a mail, perhaps he'll make me a mudcat member.

Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads in Ireland
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Jun 18 - 06:06 AM

"I'll give it a try and send Joe Offer a mail, perhaps he'll make me a mudcat member."
What took you so long?
Another ballad enthusiast would be a great addition to this forum
If you open the 'membership' section on the top line, I think you can join there
Welcome
Jim

Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads in Ireland
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 25 Jun 18 - 12:36 PM

Welcome, Kevin! Don't be put off by the circular arguments. We all love each other really!

Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads in Ireland
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Jun 18 - 02:30 AM

"We all love each other really!"
Speak for yourself Ducky (-:
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads in Ireland
From: GUEST,Kevin W.
Date: 26 Jun 18 - 03:31 AM

Haha, sometimes the arguments may get a little passionate, but in the end it's all friendly banter.

No discussion without disagreements.
Wouldn't the world be boring if we all had the same opinion?

Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads in Ireland
From: Felipa
Date: 23 Dec 21 - 04:58 PM

It's debatable whether Baile Leo (An Bhean Úd Thall, A' Bhean Eudach, Thig am Báta, etc) is actually a version of Child 10. There are significant differences.

In answer to an inquiry Tom Munnelly told me that Twa Sisters, Child 10, had not been collected in Ireland. The version recorded by Clannad was originally collected in America and they got it from Derryman Brian Mullen, I understand.

There may be recordings available of The Cherry Tree Carol as it was in the repetoires of Brigid Tunney and Thomas Moran. I'd like to hear and/or read their versions and I'd especially like to have the reported verses in Irish and Scottish Gaelic.

Subject: RE: Origins: Child Ballads in Ireland
From: Felipa
Date: 23 Dec 21 - 05:27 PM

re the Scottish Gaelic verses, collected from Malcolm MacMillan of Benbecula, Western Isles in 1891, see https://www.electricscotland.com/books/pdf/carminagadelicah02carm.pdf vol 2 of A. Carmichael, "Carmina Gadelica" pp. 162 following. I've also copied and pasted them into a Mudcat discussion thread re The Cherry Tree Carol. It would be interesting to see how these verses compare with Irish verses.