ABC versus Lilypond

Subject: ABC versus Lilypond
From: Stanron
Date: 20 Jun 18 - 06:56 AM

I've started a new thread on this because, although it started in the 'ABC versus Notation' thread as kind of relevant, this is taking it into definite thread drift.

If Moderators think it better off in the 'ABC versus Notation' thread please move this there and delete this thread.

GUEST Jon posted versions of the Kesh jig in ABC and in Lilypond. The Lilypond versions, both machine generated, were much longer than the ABC files. I spent an hour or so this morning and came up with the following;


\version "2.18.2"
\header {
      encodingdate = "2018-06-19"
      title = "The Kesh Jig"
      subtitle = " "}
             \relative d' {\key g \major \time 6/8
       \repeat volta 2 {
       \partial8
            d8 | g4. g8 a b | a b a a b d | e d d g d d | e d b d b a \break
            g4. g8 a b | a b a a b d | e d d g d b | a g fis g4 } \break
       \repeat volta 2 {
       \partial8
            a8 | b4. d8 b d | e g e d b a | b4. d8 b g | a b a a g a | \break
            b a b d b d | e g e d b d | g fis g a g a | b g fis g4 |
       }
       }



Compare this with the ABC



X:1
T:The Kesh Jig
O:Ireland
S:John B. Walsh Session Tunes
R:Jig
M:6/8
K:G
P:A
|:D|"G"~G3 GAB|"D"ABA ABd|"G"edd gdd|"G"edB "D"dBA|
    "G"~G3 GAB|"D"ABA ABd|"G"edd gdB|"D"AGF "G"G2:|
P:B
|:A|"G"~B3 dBd|"C"ege "G"dBG|"G"~B3 dBG|"D"ABA AGA|
    "G"BAB dBd|"C"ege "G"dBd|"G"gfg "D"aga|"G"bgf g2:|


It's a lot closer in size.
         

Lilypond puts a lot of stuff in automatically. All the '|' characters in the file do not have to be there. I put them in so that I could find my place in the code for editing. Remove these from the file and Lilypond puts the bar lines in anyway. The thinking behind Lilypond seems much more complicated than ABC but the files can be quite simple.

Subject: RE: ABC versus Lilypond
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 20 Jun 18 - 08:07 AM

I'd assumed the machine generated stuff wouldn't be as good but I'm surprised to learn it comes out that clean.

A couple of questions/comments though.

I don't suppose it adds much but what happens when you add the chording and ornamentation (~) that is in the abc?

It might not matter at all but I notice frescobaldi does list a couple of warnings with the lilypond as it is.

Subject: RE: ABC versus Lilypond
From: Stanron
Date: 20 Jun 18 - 10:08 AM

Try This

\version "2.18.2"
\header {
      encodingdate = "2018-06-19"
      title = "The Kesh Jig"
      subtitle = " "}
       \relative d' {\key g \major \time 6/8
       \repeat volta 2 {
       \partial8
            d8 | g4.^"~"^"G" g8 a b | a ^"D" b a a b d | e ^"C" d d g^"G/B" d d | e^"Am" d b d^"D7/F#" b a \break
            g4.^"~"^"G" g8 a b | a^"D" b a a b d | e^"Am" d d g^"G" d b | a^"D/F#" g fis g4^"G" } \break
       \repeat volta 2 {
       \partial8
            a8 | b4.^"~"^"Em" d8^"G" b d | e^"C" g e d^"G" b a | b4.^"~"^"Em" d8^"G" b g | a^"D7" b a a g a | \break
            b^"Em" a b d^"G" b d | e^"C" g e d^"G" b d | g^"C" fis g a^"D7" g a | b^"G" g fis g4 }                 
       }

It is getting a bit longer, partly because I fiddled with the chords. There's still one warning about the 'partial' part way through. This sets the anacrusis at the start of the second part so may be there is a better way of doing this.

Subject: RE: ABC versus Lilypond
From: FreddyHeadey
Date: 20 Jun 18 - 10:19 AM

Do you have any favourite web page links about Lilypond?
Particularly ones which you used early on in your discovery.

Subject: RE: ABC versus Lilypond
From: Stanron
Date: 20 Jun 18 - 10:39 AM

A couple that are still on my browser;

http://lilypond.org/doc/v2.18/Documentation/notation/index

http://lilypond.org/doc/v2.18/Documentation/learning/tutorial

Mostly I put stuff like

Headers in Lilypond

anacrusis in Lilypond

Chords in Lilypond

into a search engine. (I don't use G**gle!)

I did this four or five times but I can't remember any more details.

Oh another one was

Tutorials in Lilypond.

These proved useful, as was the program Frescobaldi which, at the click of one button, displays the current score.

Subject: RE: ABC versus Lilypond
From: FreddyHeadey
Date: 20 Jun 18 - 10:47 AM

Thanks.

Subject: RE: ABC versus Lilypond
From: GUEST,Grishka
Date: 20 Jun 18 - 12:26 PM

This is what I wrote on the other thread:

LilyPond is an old music typesetting utility and its input language. Nowadays it competes against other inexpensive methods of input, often found easier to use, and a file format MusicXML that is much more sophisticated (being relieved of the burden of easy editability by a human user).

ABC, in contrast, was designed as a music definition language. Typesetting is considered secondary, thus (last time I checked) it does not cater for many details of layout. It is well suited for sharing tunes and simple arrangements on Mudcat. When I want perfect sheet music from an existing ABC source, I import it to my wysiwyg software via abc2xml for a "final" touch.

I understand Stanron's reply to agree with me.

The bar line symbol | in ABC obviously has the purpose of making the code easier to read by humans directly. The small price to pay is some extra work for the writer and the possibility of contradiction.

(BTW: MusicXML, though not meant to be read by humans, also allows for "bars" with wrong sums of note lengths; MuseScore is notorious for producing such errors and then complaining about them. LilyPond is even less foolproof. Expensive notation software typically has fewer bugs, since those found will be corrected more quickly, but real fools still manage to produce ambiguous notation with it.)

Subject: RE: ABC versus Lilypond
From: Jack Campin
Date: 20 Jun 18 - 12:45 PM

You want a notation system to allow for incorrect bar lengths. If you're transcribing from original sources you keep the writer's mistakes.

Helps if you can check for them, though.

Subject: RE: ABC versus Lilypond
From: GUEST,Grishka
Date: 20 Jun 18 - 03:21 PM

Jack, inconsistencies will always be inconsistencies and thus undesirable. Particularly, if MuseScore produces them without the user's consent, it is a bug.

What you are talking about is differences between bar lengths and metric signatures, which may be due to mistakes, but also occur regularly such as anacruses. Some composers do not want any metric signature at all. In such cases, we have to tell our software what exactly we mean, particularly if the length of a bar differs between the staves of a score.

Subject: RE: ABC versus Lilypond
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 20 Jun 18 - 04:57 PM

Thanks Stan. I've not solved the "partial8" but have had a quick play. I think I'd need to expand things a touch to this for any purpose I might have to get midi output as well?

  \version "2.18.2"
  \header {
        encodingdate = "2018-06-19"
        title = "The Kesh Jig"
        subtitle = " "}
        
        voicedefault = \relative d' {
         \key g \major \time 6/8
          \repeat volta 2 {
         \partial8
              d8 | g4.^"~"^"G" g8 a b | a ^"D" b a a b d | e ^"C" d d g^"G/B" d d | e^"Am" d b d^"D7/F#" b a \break
              g4.^"~"^"G" g8 a b | a^"D" b a a b d | e^"Am" d d g^"G" d b | a^"D/F#" g fis g4^"G" } \break
         \repeat volta 2 {
         \partial8
              a8 | b4.^"~"^"Em" d8^"G" b d | e^"C" g e d^"G" b a | b4.^"~"^"Em" d8^"G" b g | a^"D7" b a a g a | \break
              b^"Em" a b d^"G" b d | e^"C" g e d^"G" b d | g^"C" fis g a^"D7" g a | b^"G" g fis g4 }                 
         }
  \score{
      <<
  
          \context Staff="default"
          {
              \voicedefault 
          }
  
      >>
          \layout {
          }
          \midi {}
  }
  

Subject: RE: ABC versus Lilypond
From: Stanron
Date: 20 Jun 18 - 05:09 PM

Does this produce a midi file?

I did a line like your

'\midi{}'

line and got a midi file but I couldn't get it to play, although that is not uncommon on my machine, so I deleted it.

Subject: RE: ABC versus Lilypond
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 20 Jun 18 - 05:13 PM

Yes, I get a playable midi here.

Subject: RE: ABC versus Lilypond
From: leeneia
Date: 20 Jun 18 - 06:13 PM

Let's back up. What is Lilypond>

I googled it and found this: LilyPond is a music engraving program, devoted to producing the highest-quality sheet music possible.

But they don't explain what engraving music might be. To me, engraving is something you do with a knife on wood or with acid on glass.

Subject: RE: ABC versus Lilypond
From: Jack Campin
Date: 20 Jun 18 - 06:25 PM

Jack, inconsistencies will always be inconsistencies and thus undesirable.

I've got quite a few ABC transcriptions of tunes where the writer didn't understand the metre and had to guess - very common with 18th century manuscripts of triple-time hornpipes. In that situation you don't want to try fixing it as you transcribe - you copy exactly what you're seeing and try to interpret it later. (Similarly you never want to spellcheck tune titles as you copy; write them down literally).

Subject: RE: ABC versus Lilypond
From: Stanron
Date: 20 Jun 18 - 06:32 PM

leeneia wrote: But they don't explain what engraving music might be

I take 'engraving' to mean something like 'typesetting' might mean to a printer. Early printed scores were produced by engraving on metal sheets.

If we think it is difficult for us to grapple with software, they had to carve it in metal, by hand and in reverse!

Subject: RE: ABC versus Lilypond
From: GUEST,Grishka
Date: 20 Jun 18 - 06:46 PM

Jack, I understood you all right and do not disagree.

Subject: RE: ABC versus Lilypond
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 20 Jun 18 - 07:02 PM

OK Stan,tryingsomething a bit different http://www.joe-offer.com/folkinfo/songs/578.html

The first thing I notice is I don’t understand the \relative bit (at least not yet) and wonder if that is the best way. I have to raise the first note in the second line by an octave or things start to go low from that point...

Do I really have to put the flats in each time or am I missing something? Notes are coming out as naturals if I don’t.

It’s not immediately apparent to me how to display the time as 4/4 or how to change the beaming to match what I’m trying to copy.

\version "2.18.2"
\header {
      encodingdate = "2018-06-19"
      title = "Marianina"
      subtitle = " "}
      
      voicedefault = \relative ees' {
       \key ees \major \time 4/4
      
             bes4. g8 c c bes bes | aes4. f8 d4 r |\break
             c'4. aes8 d d c c | bes4. g8 ees4 r   |\break
      
      }
      \addlyrics {
      O'er the o -- cean flies a mer -- ry fay,
      As she pass -- es all the blue waves say
}
\score{
    <<

        \context Staff="default"
        {
            \voicedefault
        }

    >>
        \layout {
        }
        \midi {}
}

Subject: RE: ABC versus Lilypond
From: GUEST
Date: 20 Jun 18 - 07:27 PM

If we think it is difficult for us to grapple with software, they had to carve it in metal, by hand and in reverse!

I wonder how long the apprenticeships were for such a craft?

Subject: RE: ABC versus Lilypond
From: Stanron
Date: 20 Jun 18 - 07:39 PM

Jon

The relative bit is to do with each note being the closest of it's name to the preceding note.
So if the header says

\relative c'

and the first note is d then that d will be the d nearest to c'. The next note will be the nearest version of that note to the preceding d. This is why you don't get capital letters in the same way as you do in ABC.

Relative mode seems to work well with folk tunes.

If the declaration of key is correct I would assume that only accidentals would need to be stated as sharp or flat although that wasn't the case with The Kesh jig.

As to the time signature the capital C after the key signature, three flats, is for 'Common Time' which is another name for 4/4 so the time signature is there.

The beaming in your version is not wrong. Beaming can be forced using [], square braces, but I wouldn't be bothered to try.

All in all that is a pretty good start.

Stan

Subject: RE: ABC versus Lilypond
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 20 Jun 18 - 07:43 PM

Ah, Stan, sometimes you want to reproduce what you are copying from. I'm assuming I need to do that for this play.

Subject: RE: ABC versus Lilypond
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 20 Jun 18 - 08:42 PM

OK,I that takes me to this:

  \version "2.18.2"
  \header {
        encodingdate = "2018-06-19"
        title = "Marianina"
        subtitle = " "}
        
        voicedefault = \relative ees' {
          \key ees \major \numericTimeSignature \time 4/4
          
               bes4. g8 c [c] bes [bes] | aes4. f8 d4 r |
               c'4. aes8 d [d] c [c] | bes4. g8 ees4 r   |\break
               bes'4. g8 c [c] bes [bes] | aes4. f8 d4 r |\break
               c'4. aes8 d [d] c [c] | \break
               bes4 bes8 [bes] c [c] bes [bes]|
               aes4 aes8 [aes] bes [bes] aes [aes] | g2 \bar "" \break
               ees'4. d8 | d c4. d c8 | c bes4. bes b8 | d4. c8 bes [bes] aes [f] | ees2 r2 |
        }
        \addlyrics {
        O'er the o -- cean flies a mer -- ry fay,
        Soft her wings are as a cloud of day'
        As she pass -- es all the blue waves say:
        Ma -- ria -- ni -- na do not Roam,
        Whith -- er, whith -- er is your home,
        Come and turn us in -- to foam,
        Ma -- ria -- ni  -- na, Ma -- ria -- ni -- na, Come O come and turn us in -- to foam.
    }
  
  
  \score{
      <<
  
          \context Staff="default"
          {
              \voicedefault 
          }
  
      >>
          \layout {
          }
          \midi {}
  }
  \markup { \column{
    \line{ O' er the fields she passes to and fro, }
    \line{ By the cornstalks standing row by row, }
    \line{ Poppies whisper as they see her go }
    \line{ Marianina, little friend }
    \line{ Whither would your footsteps wend, }
    \line{ Come and teach us how to bend, }
    \line{ Marianina, Marianina, }
    \line{ Come, O come and teach us how to bend }
    \line{ [...] }  
    }
  }
  

Subject: RE: ABC versus Lilypond
From: Stanron
Date: 20 Jun 18 - 09:28 PM

You have certainly copied the original now except for the fact that in my Frescobaldi the whole score appears to be an octave low. Change

relative ees'

to

relative ees'

and it raises the score an octave.

However the original score contains what I see as errors. I can see no justification for having only one bar on the third line. There is also a bar split between the fourth and fifth lines. The convention is to have more or less the same number of bars on each line. For some people anything other than four bars a line is wrong. This piece is unusual in having a bar length that is not divisible by four.

My instinct would be to do it as it should be, but of course that was not your purpose. I suspect the faults come from in the original ABC file but it's too late for me to look at that now. Tomorrow perhaps.

Subject: RE: ABC versus Lilypond
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 20 Jun 18 - 11:15 PM

Yes, I don’t quite understand this one which seems to be some sort of hybrid but there was some possibly never resolved or wrong decisions taken at folkinfo as to where to follow the book (which this abc does not do) and whether to present the music so that the lyrics scanned per line with split bars or whether to keep the bars in tact. Probably could have been handled better...

But that’s a fair while ago and beside the point for this exercise.

I’m puzzled by the relative bit. My attempt has two single quotes (‘) but one seems to have got lost in the posting.

Subject: RE: ABC versus Lilypond
From: leeneia
Date: 20 Jun 18 - 11:59 PM

Thanks, Stanron.

Subject: RE: ABC versus Lilypond
From: Stanron
Date: 21 Jun 18 - 01:25 AM

GUEST,Jon wrote: My attempt has two single quotes (‘) but one seems to have got lost in the posting.

Two single quotes is right.

That's what happened in my last post. It should have read

relative ees'

The second apostrophe got lost. Then I lost access to Mudcat, gave up and went to bed. Let's see if it comes out right this time.

It's right in the preview.

Subject: RE: ABC versus Lilypond
From: Stanron
Date: 21 Jun 18 - 01:27 AM

And missing in the post.

Ah well. ees with two single quotes. That will be why your posted version came out an octave low.

Cheers

Stan

Subject: RE: ABC versus Lilypond
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 21 Jun 18 - 01:29 AM

Looks like it's a Mudcat fault...

btw. One thing I do prefer with lilypond is the way it handles lyrics aligned with the score as a separate block rather than the w: under each line in abc. It (at least to me) makes editing easier and I could make that Marianina look a bit better simply by removing one \break.

Subject: RE: ABC versus Lilypond
From: Stanron
Date: 21 Jun 18 - 02:55 AM

I just read somewhere that modern versions of ABC allow you to put the lyrics below. I just tried it with EasyABC but it didn't work.

I recoded the song to display in a more consistant fasion

%%scale 1
X:1    %Music
T:Marianina
B:Singing Together, Summer 1968, BBC Publications
F:http://www.folkinfo.org/songs
M:4/4    %Meter
L:1/8    %
K:Eb
B3 G cc BB |A3 F D2 z2 |
w:O'er the o-cean flies a mer-ry fay
c3 A dd cc |B3 G E2 z2 |
w:Soft her wings are as a cloud of day,
B3 G cc BB |A3 F D2 z2 |
w:As she pass-es all the blue waves say:
c3 A dd cc |B2 BB cc BB |
w:"Ma-ria-ni-na, do not roam, Whi-ther, whi-ther is your
A2 AA BB AA |G4 e3 d |
w:home, Come and turn us in-to foam, Ma-ria-
d c3 d3 c |c B3 B3 =B |
w: ni-na, Ma-ria-ni-na, Come, O
d3 c BB AF |E4 z4 |]
w: come and turn us in-to foam!"

In this case the spread of notes and lyrics is the same throughout. I would have liked to reset the stems so that all stems go up away from the lyrics but I haven't figured that out yet.

Subject: RE: ABC versus Lilypond
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 21 Jun 18 - 03:04 AM

I don't know the current abc standard, Stan and I'll look at the abc later but in the meanwhile, as far as I remember, EasyAbc uses abcm2ps for the "typesetting" so you might want to look at updating that bit - though I gather the author of that program is focusing on abc2svg and newest features may not get to abcm2ps.

Subject: RE: ABC versus Lilypond
From: Stanron
Date: 21 Jun 18 - 04:09 AM

OK I've sorted out the stems. The command \stemUp after the first dipped stem set all stems up. This takes them away from the lyrics which I prefer.

\version "2.18.2"
\header {
       encodingdate = "2018-06-19"
       title = "Marianina"
       subtitle = " "}
      
       voicedefault = \relative ees' {
          \key ees \major \time 4/4
         
               bes4. g8 c\stemUp c bes bes | aes4. f8 d4 r |\break
               c'4. aes8 d [d] c [c] | bes4. g8 ees4 r   |\break
               bes'4. g8 c [c] bes [bes] | aes4. f8 d4 r |\break
               c'4. aes8 d [d] c [c] | bes4 bes8 [bes] c [c] bes [bes]|\break
               aes4 aes8 [aes] bes [bes] aes [aes] | g2 ees'4. d8 |
                d c4. d c8 | c bes4. bes b8 | d4. c8 bes [bes] aes [f] | ees2 r2 |
       }
       \addlyrics {
       O'er the o -- cean flies a
       mer -- ry fay,
       Soft her wings are as a cloud of day'
       As she pass -- es all the blue waves say:
       Ma -- ria -- ni -- na do not Roam,
       Whith -- er, whith -- er is your home,
       Come and turn us in -- to foam,
       Ma -- ria -- ni -- na, Ma -- ria -- ni -- na, Come O come and turn us in -- to foam.
    }


\score{
      <<

          \context Staff="default"
          {
             \voicedefault
          }

      >>
          \layout {
          }
          \midi {}
}
\markup { \column{
    \line{ O' er the fields she passes to and fro, }
    \line{ By the cornstalks standing row by row, }
    \line{ Poppies whisper as they see her go }
    \line{ Marianina, little friend }
    \line{ Whither would your footsteps wend, }
    \line{ Come and teach us how to bend, }
    \line{ Marianina, Marianina, }
    \line{ Come, O come and teach us how to bend }
    \line{ [...] }
    }
}

Subject: RE: ABC versus Lilypond
From: FreddyHeadey
Date: 21 Jun 18 - 04:27 AM

"The W: information field (uppercase W) can be used for lyrics to be printed separately below the tune."
http://abcnotation.com/wiki/abc:standard:v2.1#lyrics

Subject: RE: ABC versus Lilypond
From: Stanron
Date: 21 Jun 18 - 04:39 AM

FreddyHeadey wrote: "The W: information field (uppercase W) can be used for lyrics to be printed separately below the tune."

I did try that but they did not align under the notation. I couldn't figure out if my ABC editor was an old version or I coded it incorrectly.

One thing I've noticed is that searching for stuff in Lilypond seems more successful than searching for the same stuff in ABC. I was trying to force all stems up, away from the lyrics. Despite a long search I could not find out how to do this in ABC. I found how to do it in Lilypond in a couple of minutes.

Jon,

if you put

\bar "|."

after the last bar line you get the normal final barline.

Subject: RE: ABC versus Lilypond
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 21 Jun 18 - 04:47 AM

I've had a look now and can't find a reference to a block of aligned lyrics. Unless I have missed something new.

W: is closer to the \markup in the lilypond above.

w: serves the same purpose as \addlyrics but is done under each music line. A problem with w: to me is that if you do want to change the number of bars in a line, you also have to change the w: line.

Subject: RE: ABC versus Lilypond
From: GUEST,p
Date: 21 Jun 18 - 04:54 AM

The 'lyrics under the notes' works OK in ABC, but you do have to read the manual about how to control syllable placement if you want them to line up properly and the output may not be visually as neat as wysiwyg applications.

About the bar lines in ABC. I think they are as much for writing as reading. Folks into coding might not like the redundancy but proof reading would be a lot harder without them. I don't know about other people but I am much more likely to slip up over note-length coding than to get the bar line somewhere other than before the first note of the bar.

Am I right that LilyPond has some redundancy in that the even though the key is given a G major the F's are shown as sharp?

Subject: RE: ABC versus Lilypond
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 21 Jun 18 - 05:12 AM

Apologies. As of 2.1, apparently the following are equivalent

C D E F|
w: doh re mi fa
G A B c|
w: sol la ti doh

C D E F|
G A B c|
w: doh re mi fa sol la ti doh

Subject: RE: ABC versus Lilypond
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 21 Jun 18 - 05:25 AM

abc2svg at http://moinejf.free.fr/js/edit-1.xhtml will take the lyrics for Stan's Marianina abc as one w: line at the bottom:

w:O'er the o-cean flies a mer-ry fay Soft her wings are as a cloud of day, As she pass-es all the blue waves say: "Ma-ria-ni-na, do not roam, Whi-ther, whi-ther is your home, Come and turn us in-to foam, Ma-ria- ni-na, Ma-ria-ni-na, Come, O come and turn us in-to foam!"

I can't see atm how to split that up.

The latest version of abcm2ps I found on github will not take this.

Subject: RE: ABC versus Lilypond
From: GUEST,Jack Campin
Date: 21 Jun 18 - 08:29 AM

I don't get the way you have both the G major key signature and the "fis"'s in that example. Do the sharps get typeset as if they were accdentals?

Subject: RE: ABC versus Lilypond
From: GUEST,p
Date: 21 Jun 18 - 08:33 AM

Stanron's Marianina works fine for me on screen and to PDF in EasyABC 1.3.7.5 2016-08-09

That's the last version I installed (on Windows 7), because I have had no reason to change. I will dig around later to check which versions of the underlying executables are being used.

Subject: RE: ABC versus Lilypond
From: Stanron
Date: 21 Jun 18 - 09:13 AM

If you haven't come across this Lilypond pdf there is a lot uf useful information here

http://eugenecormier.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/10/My-Lilypond-Guide.pdf

Subject: RE: ABC versus Lilypond
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 21 Jun 18 - 10:14 AM

Just to clarify, p. Can you delete all his w: lines and replace it with the one w: line I gave?

Subject: RE: ABC versus Lilypond
From: GUEST,p
Date: 21 Jun 18 - 10:40 AM

No. Sorry, I was at cross purposes.

Probably because my main use is to put the correct line from every verse under the notation for that line - for songs where I have not got either the tune or all the words in my head. The main proble I find with EasyABC for that is that the SVG and PDF conversion seem to work out the line lengths differently (though that may be a default page width issue)

I think putting words all underneath is where I would be looking for something that focused on page and document layout, with score as one element, rather than ABC which originated as focused on score for simple tunes. I quite like the way in ABC that the page layout commands are a separate thing.

Subject: RE: ABC versus Lilypond
From: GUEST,p
Date: 21 Jun 18 - 10:51 AM

As Jack Campin said in the other discussion, being able to set out the text in ABC a readable way (though not neccessarily to play or sing from) with only a little more attention to character spacings is a big plus for me. Is that possible in LilyPond?

Another consideration is being able to make a start typing one-handed when writing down a tune learned by ear with instrument in hand. Typically I just put in the notes without worrying about octave or length, then go through and put the bar lines in, then sort out the lengths and octaves. So following the key signature by default is useful

Subject: RE: ABC versus Lilypond
From: GUEST,p
Date: 21 Jun 18 - 11:07 AM

Will this do? It's the manual...

X:1
T:Marianina
B:Singing Together, Summer 1968, BBC Publications
F:http://www.folkinfo.org/songs
M:4/4   
L:1/8   
K:Eb
B3 G cc BB |A3 F D2 z2 |
c3 A dd cc |B3 G E2 z2 |
B3 G cc BB |A3 F D2 z2 |
c3 A dd cc |B2 BB cc BB |
A2 AA BB AA |G4 w3 d |
d c3 d3 c |c B3 B3 =B |
d3 c BB AF |E4 z4 |]
%%text O'er the o-cean flies a mer-ry fay
%%text Soft her wings are as a cloud of day
%%text As she pass-es all the blue waves say:
%%text "Ma-ria-ni-na, do not roam, Whi-ther, whi-ther is your
%%text home, Come and turn us in-to foam, Ma-ria-
%%text ni-na, Ma-ria-ni-na, Come, O
%%text come and turn us in-to foam!"

Subject: RE: ABC versus Lilypond
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 21 Jun 18 - 11:16 AM

That seems to do the same as W: with abcm2ps

I suspect the closest we get to the lilypond \addlyrics is one line w: under the tune but the line could be quite long and I think support for this is very limited.

Subject: RE: ABC versus Lilypond
From: Jack Campin
Date: 21 Jun 18 - 01:14 PM

OK, on looking at that PDF document - the way they handle key signatures is butt-ugly. What I'd hoped is that somebody night have extended it to handle the sort of microtonal key signatures you get in Turkish music, this kind of thing:

http://neyzen.com/nota_arsivi/02_klasik_eserler/082_segah/incecikten_bir_kar_yagar_ney.pdf

where the backwards flats indicate one comma flat of the corresponding "natural". But while ABC could be extended to do that without major chaos, it's completely alien to the Lilypond model.

Subject: RE: ABC versus Lilypond
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 21 Jun 18 - 01:28 PM

I'm not even going to try to understand it but does this help at all, Jack?

Subject: RE: ABC versus Lilypond
From: GUEST,Jack Campin
Date: 21 Jun 18 - 02:28 PM

OK, it looks like it can do something but a piece of real music would be more informative. The point of microtonal key signatures is that you don't have to specify the pitch of each note individually - most commonly, all the B's in a piece are a comma flat and no B naturals occur at all.

Subject: RE: ABC versus Lilypond
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 21 Jun 18 - 03:07 PM

Transpose looks a bit akward in terms of something like the mandolintab abc converter. I've not found a utility that would rewrite the file in a different key - which is sometimes wanted.

To use the Kesh Jig example, output could be transposed by wrapping the music in a \transpose:

  \header {
        encodingdate = "2018-06-19"
        title = "The Kesh Jig"
        subtitle = " "}
        
        
        voicedefault = \transpose g a {
         \relative d' {
         \key g \major \time 6/8
          \repeat volta 2 {
         \partial8
              d8 | g4.^"~"^"G" g8 a b | a ^"D" b a a b d | e ^"C" d d g^"G/B" d d | e^"Am" d b d^"D7/F#" b a \break
              g4.^"~"^"G" g8 a b | a^"D" b a a b d | e^"Am" d d g^"G" d b | a^"D/F#" g fis g4^"G" } \break
         \repeat volta 2 {
         \partial8
              a8 | b4.^"~"^"Em" d8^"G" b d | e^"C" g e d^"G" b a | b4.^"~"^"Em" d8^"G" b g | a^"D7" b a a g a | \break
              b^"Em" a b d^"G" b d | e^"C" g e d^"G" b d | g^"C" fis g a^"D7" g a | b^"G" g fis g4 }                 
         }
        }
  \score{
      <<
  
          \context Staff="default"
          {
              \voicedefault 
          }
  
      >>
          \layout {
          }
          \midi {}
  }
  

I think this is moving the notes up to A correctly but the chords don't change. Maybe there is another means of chords to find?

Subject: RE: ABC versus Lilypond
From: Stanron
Date: 21 Jun 18 - 03:55 PM

In this instance the actual notes that were coded are unaltered, so It's not surprising that the text based chord names are unaltered as well.

If you change the chord names but leave the rest of the file unaltered there could be all sorts of problems in store for the future.

I wonder if there is a transpose function that actually changes the names of the notes in the file. Then it would be worth changing the chord names by hand.

Subject: RE: ABC versus Lilypond
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 21 Jun 18 - 04:19 PM

I've had a go. I've still got something wrong -I'm not sure where to put them - as the chords still don't transpose but these ones play in a midi (which is why this post has the odd transpose of g to g).

  \version "2.18.2"
  \header {
        encodingdate = "2018-06-19"
        title = "The Kesh Jig"
        subtitle = " "}
        
        
        voicedefault = \transpose g g {
         \relative d' {
         \key g \major \time 6/8
         \repeat volta 2 {
         \partial8
              d8 | g4.^"~" g8 a b | a b a a b d | e d d g d d | e d b d b a \break
              g4.^"~" g8 a b | a b a a b d | e d d g d b | a g fis g4 } \break
         \repeat volta 2 {
         \partial8
              a8 | b4.^"~" d8 b d | e g e d b a | b4.^"~" d8 b g | a b a a g a | \break
              b a b d b d | e g e d b d | g fis g a g a | b g fis g4 }                 
         }
        }
  \score{
      <<
         \chords { d8 g2. d2. c4. g/b a:m d:7/fis
                   g2. d2. a4.:m g d:7/fis g
                   e:m g c g e:m g d2.:7
                   e4.:m g c g c d:7 g
         }
  
          \context Staff="default"
          {
              \voicedefault 
          }
  
      >>
          \layout {
          }
          \midi {}
  }
  

Subject: RE: ABC versus Lilypond
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 21 Jun 18 - 04:34 PM

Anyway, while I might get tempted into another play or two or feel the need to make more comments..., I think I'm at the point where I'd say Lilypond is unlikely to be for me.

I'm not sure that the initial entry was any harder that abc, at least after Stan kicked things off with a basic template but things are starting to get more complicated, and I couldn't see it working for me if (it won't happen but in terms of my line of thinking when looking at this thread) if a started another folkinfo type thing with tune converter, etc.

Subject: RE: ABC versus Lilypond
From: GUEST,Grishka
Date: 21 Jun 18 - 05:49 PM

According to the documentation I have (possibly outdated?), the following should do the job, although I cannot say whether it does with all software:

w:O'er the o-cean flies a mer-ry fay
+:Soft her wings are as a cloud of day
+:As she pass-es all the blue waves say:

etc.

It is an option, not always to be recommended. Readers of the code are likely to prefer the traditional lyrics-below-the-notes style.

Subject: RE: ABC versus Lilypond
From: Stanron
Date: 22 Jun 18 - 05:00 AM

I've tried all the suggestions for getting words from below the music code to appear under each line of music in ABC. So far no luck. My software may be at fault or I might be doing it wrong. Either way I'm not that bothered. It's no big deal to cut and paste text from one part of the file to another. After all it's the final score, and how it appears that matters.

Lilypond is interesting and has very good documentation on-line. At the moment I can't see what I'd use it for. ABC has far more material as free files of folk music and Musescore does my notation plus tab for my guitar stuff. I may well continue to play with Lilypond when other projects don't interfere.

Subject: RE: ABC versus Lilypond
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 22 Jun 18 - 07:47 AM

I think the hardest part is trying to work out where to put things once you have moved away from the basic minimal examples. I have had another play this morning and I think this would get me nearer to a basic template that would work for most things I'd look at. I'm using 2 \transpose but I don't see how to resolve that and I can't see how to come up with a macro that would change the 2 entries in one. Obviously I wouldn't always use all of this. I've left a "Kesh Jig" in.
Not sure of the chord shapes btw but I'm mostly open chords on guitar

\version "2.18.2"
  
  \header {
    title = "The Kesh Jig"
  }
  
  global = {
    \time 6/8
    \key d \major
    \tempo 4=100
  }
  
  
  melody =     \transpose g a {
      \relative d' {
      \global
      \repeat volta 2 {
        \partial8
        d8 | g4.^"~" g8 a b | a b a a b d | e d d g d d | e d b d b a \break
        g4.^"~" g8 a b | a b a a b d | e d d g d b | a g fis g4 } \break
      \repeat volta 2 {
        \partial8
        a8 | b4.^"~" d8 b d | e g e d b a | b4.^"~" d8 b g | a b a a g a | \break
        b a b d b d | e g e d b d | g fis g a g a | b g fis g4 }                 
      }
  }
  
  chordNames =   \transpose g g{
    \chordmode {
      \global
      d8 g2. d2. c4. g/b a:m d:7/fis
      g2. d2. a4.:m g d:7/fis g
      e:m g c g e:m g d2.:7
      e4.:m g c g c d:7 g
    }
    
  }
  
  words = \lyricmode {
    de dee di -- dly -- dee
  }
  
  text = \markup { \column{
    \line{ Other words go here}
    }
  }
  
  \score {
    <<
      \new ChordNames \chordNames
      \new FretBoards \chordNames
      \new Staff { \melody }
      \addlyrics { \words }
    >>
    \layout { }
    \midi { }
  }
  
  \text
  

Subject: RE: ABC versus Lilypond
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 22 Jun 18 - 11:37 AM

I will try to call it quits now but wanted to try something else

  \version "2.18.2"
  
  \header {
    title = "Diadem"
    subtitle = "Arr. Ian Russell"
  }
  
  global = {
    \time 3/4
    \key g \major
    \tempo 4=112
  }
  
  
  soprano =   \relative d' {
      \global
      \partial4
      d4 | g2 a4 |b8.( c16 d4) g, | a g fis | \break
      g2 fis8( [e]) | d4. e8 d [c] | b4 d g | e c' c | \break 
  }
  
  alto =  \relative d' {
      \global
      %\partial4
      b | d2 d4 | d2 d4 | e d d | \break
      d2 d8( c) | b4. c8 b [a] | g4 b d | e2 e4 | \break
  }
  
  tenor = \relative d' {
      \global
      g4 | b g fis | g8.( a16 b4) g | c b a | \break
      g2 a4 | g4. g8 g [g] | g2 g4 | g2 g4 | \break 
  }
  
  bass = {
      \clef bass
      \relative d, {
      \key g \major
      g | g b d | g2 b,4 | c d d | \break
      g,2 d'4 | g,4. g8 g [g] | g2 g4 | c2 a4 | \break 
      }
  }
  
  wordsone = \lyricmode {
    All hail the power __ of Je -- s -- us
    name, Let __ an -- gels prost -- rate fall ____ Let an- ____ -gels
  }
  
  wordstwo = \lyricmode {
    All hail ____ the power __ of Je -- s -- us
    name, Let an -- gels pros -- trate fall Let an- __ -gels
  }
  
  \score {
     <<
      \new Staff \with {
        midiInstrument = "church organ"
        instrumentName = \markup \center-column { Soprano}
      }{ \soprano }
      \addlyrics { \wordsone}
      \new Staff \with {
        midiInstrument = "church organ"
        instrumentName = \markup \center-column { Alto }
      }{ \alto }
      \new Staff \with {
        midiInstrument = "church organ"
        instrumentName = \markup \center-column { Tenor }
      }{ \tenor }
      \addlyrics { \wordstwo }
      \new Staff \with {
        midiInstrument = "rock organ"
        instrumentName = \markup \center-column { Bass }
      }{ \bass }
    >>
    \layout { }
    \midi { }
  }
  

Subject: RE: ABC versus Lilypond
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 23 Jun 18 - 07:32 AM

As a was up late last night (back ache),I thought I’d look at possibly converting a batch of songs in abc into lilypond. Using the abc2xml then musicxml2ly route as it does appear to give tidier .ly and the more direct abc2ly program is unsupported and may be dropped so isn’t really one for future use. I only got as far as the first trial file and noticed a couple of problems:

I think this is on the musicxml2ly side as importing the xml into muse score was ok but. The conversion seems to use a “blank note”, eg. “s4”. to handle an anacrusis. I think this explains a weird blank bar in the middle of a Kesh jig conversion I tried in the other thread. It is less of a problem in my sample song which just has one lead note with no repeats or multiple parts(eg, AB) but it still doesn’t work out right. In this case, “padding” (say s4 a4) before the first note would be ok but this came out as (say) a4 s4. Apart from looking a little odd on a score, a problem with midi production like this is you get an “instant” first note and then silence to fill the rest of the bar.

The B and W: fields did not get through. These exist in the musicxml as miscellaneous fields but I’ve been unable to find any information on mapping musicxml fields to ones that the musicxml2ly progam would take.

If (as I would be doing if I got to doing a batch for what I was playing with), I’d be extracting the abc from a database and running the conversions by a php script, I think I’d manage to add the missing fields to the .ly in the script (but wouldn’t be able to rewrite musicxml2ly) but don’t see how I’d make the substitutions for the first problem.

O well, not sure I’d use it anyway, just something to play with at 2am…

Subject: RE: ABC versus Lilypond
From: GUEST,Rev Bayes
Date: 02 Jul 18 - 02:08 PM

As I seem to be responsible for starting all this off, I apologise for the collective waste of man and woman hours.

In general, I would not advocate Lilypond over ABC for any purpose unless you *know* you need it. In many years of typesetting folk and traditional (and beyond) music I have never needed functionality some ABC utility could not provide, albeit at times by dint of extreme effort.

To be able to use Lilypond well means committing to using it: it is not a simple program but that in turn means that you can place anything on the page you wish - *if* you know how.

Finally, I don't recommend using Lilypond to process the outputs of other programs. That way lies madness.

Subject: RE: ABC versus Lilypond
From: Stanron
Date: 02 Jul 18 - 07:03 PM

I enjoyed my foray into Lilypond but I won't be using it for serious notation. I'm in the process of taking some recordings I did in 2011 and making videos that display notation and tab of the recording as the music plays. I'm using Musescore for this. I couldn't do it with Lilypond.

I like that Lilypond has similarities to C programming and it is well documented on-line. You can wing it but I'll stick with Musescore.

Subject: RE: ABC versus Lilypond
From: Jack Campin
Date: 03 Jul 18 - 04:17 AM

Stanron, could you describe the process of adding an animated score to a video? Maybe in a new thread?

Subject: RE: ABC versus Lilypond
From: Stanron
Date: 03 Jul 18 - 06:35 AM

I've started an Images on a video thread.

Cheers

Stan