BS: Refugee Clampdown

Subject: BS: REFUGEE CLAMPDOWN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Jun 18 - 04:42 AM

This is NOW OFFICIAL
Italy and Malta made their position clear by turning away a rescue ship full of refugees
THe world stands to see many more refugees in the near future
What a world to hand on to our children
Jim Caarroll

Subject: RE: BS: REFUGEE CLAMPDOWN
From: Iains
Date: 21 Jun 18 - 05:03 AM

Since the late 1970s, the international community has been well aware of the severe impact that large scale refugee populations can have on the social, economic and political life of host developing countries.

Subject: RE: BS: REFUGEE CLAMPDOWN
From: Senoufou
Date: 21 Jun 18 - 05:13 AM

So to deter poor people trying to enter a country, one stands idly by while they drown in the sea, or traumatises their young children by sticking them in wire cages with only a foil blanket, away from their mothers?

I agree they cannot be allowed to invade a country in their thousands, and it is a huge problem. But surely proper detention centres, where medical care and humanity are offered is better than getting more and more like Adolf Hitler? What next? Gas chambers? Gunning them down as they arrive?

Subject: RE: BS: REFUGEE CLAMPDOWN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Jun 18 - 05:33 AM

"can have on the social, economic and political life of host developing countries."
Isn't it a shame that those developing countries seem totally unaware that largely they are the cause of those refugees by their predatory exploitation
of the Third World and their habit of selling arms to despots?
Refugees are our responsibility and will continue to be so while we allow our Governments to act as they do
Our economic and political life seems to be a small price to pay for our indifference and inhumanity
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: REFUGEE CLAMPDOWN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Jun 18 - 05:34 AM

Didn't finish
It's about time we stopped regarding caring for refugees as a a charity and recognise it as a debt
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: REFUGEE CLAMPDOWN
From: Senoufou
Date: 21 Jun 18 - 08:08 AM

I agree with all you say Jim.

Poor, disadvantaged and suffering people should be seen as our duty to try and help. We certainly have no right to make things so appalling for them on arrival in order to deter the others from following suit.
'pour encourager les autres' (Voltaire - Candide)
There were one or two Ivorians on the Aquarius, which made my husband and me very sad.

Subject: RE: BS: REFUGEE CLAMPDOWN
From: wysiwyg
Date: 21 Jun 18 - 08:17 AM

It's only going to get uglier as exploitative climate change continues to shrink the livable scope of land mass. We tried to tell people....

~S~

Subject: RE: BS: REFUGEE CLAMPDOWN
From: Jack Campin
Date: 21 Jun 18 - 08:36 AM

can have on the social, economic and political life of host developing countries.
Isn't it a shame that those developing countries seem totally unaware that largely they are the cause of those refugees by their predatory exploitation of the Third World and their habit of selling arms to despots?

I read that as having the opposite meaning to the one you gave it.

I think the largest refugee population in any country is in Iran (from Afghanistan) and the largest as a fraction of population is in Djibouti (from Somalia). Both developing countries by most standards and neither responsible for the hell unleashed on their neighbours by Western capitalism.

Subject: RE: BS: REFUGEE CLAMPDOWN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Jun 18 - 09:43 AM

"I think the largest refugee population in any country is in Iran"
Taking a breath )in the hope this doesn't get the thread closed), the largest single national number of refugees are Palestinian - 7.2 million worldwide and set to grow if things go on as they are.
It seems inconceivable that we won't have large numbers leaving The Yemen and Myanmar in the foreseeable future
Sorry - didn't get your "opposite meaning" comment - the top line you've highlighted was a quote from Iains
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: REFUGEE CLAMPDOWN
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 21 Jun 18 - 11:07 AM

Sen, you may be able to answer this question that has been on my mind for a while. Are there still nomadic tribes in Africa? If so, what happens when they get "settled" by governments in one place? Surely some amount of movement is necessary to allow people to hunt and or farm in different areas and not exhaust the resources of one place. Don't get me wrong here, I am not saying people should be forced to wander but neither should they be forced to live in one place or by our own narrow standards. I

I am not even sure where I am going with this so probably just trying to put my thoughts in order. Is a certain amount of movement beneficial and, if so, should there be any borders to genuine nomads? Not that refugees are all in that situation but some may be. Yes? No? Food for thought at least I hope!

Subject: RE: BS: REFUGEE CLAMPDOWN
From: Iains
Date: 21 Jun 18 - 11:32 AM

"Sorry - didn't get your "opposite meaning" comment - the top line you've highlighted was a quote from Iains" Wrong again, as usual!

The quote was actually from the UNHCR. To be precise. The opening sentence.

Social and economic impact of large refugee populations on host developing countriesSocial and economic impact of large refugee populations on host developing countries
EC/47/SC/CRP.7

By UNHCR Standing Committee | 06 January 1997


http://www.unhcr.org/en-ie/excom/standcom/3ae68d0e10/social-economic-impact-large-refugee-populations-host-developing-countries.

As you can see. It was a problem 30 years ago.

Subject: RE: BS: REFUGEE CLAMPDOWN
From: Senoufou
Date: 21 Jun 18 - 11:36 AM

Cor, Dave there are loads!
eg:-
Baka
Hadza
San
Twa
Tuareg
Wodaabe
Pokot
Fulani

Some are semi-nomadic, and there are indeed clashes between settled farmers and the pastoral nomads letting their herd graze on their land.

They also tend to have pitched battles between themselves, especially in the Omo valley in Ethiopia, where there are several distinct tribes. They get hold of guns and spend a lot of time picking off their rivals and organising raids.

Ivory Coast has quite a few nomads, the Fulani and Twa for example.
Climate change and drought, the increasing area of the Sahara and so on have caused no end of trouble, as people compete for decent grazing.
From what I've heard, most African governments couldn't care less about their people, only their own pockets. Corruption is rife, and poverty-stricken tribes just try and fend as best they can.
Many migrate to the towns and cities. Sadly there is much prostitution and crime, not to mention disease and ignorance.
It's a sad picture.

Subject: RE: BS: REFUGEE CLAMPDOWN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Jun 18 - 11:59 AM

"It was a problem 30 years ago."
of course it was a problem and remains so, but it was a problem of our own making - that point not only remains, but has expanded enormously since the oil wars and various forms of ethnic cleansing which we have either supported or ignored.
What we aare seeing now is a return to the exploitative use of a situation which dates back to the fall of the British Empire, Kings Cross and other Colour Bar Strikes, Notting Hill Riots, and most blatantly, Powell's 'Rivers of Blood' speech which led to the Est End demonstrations.
Now we have Brexit and the Farage disease
The cynicism of easing the NHS problems by allowing trained medical staff to enter Britain is somewhat reminiscent of the old Giles Cartoon depicting injured racist thugs from the Notting Hill Riots being ushered though hospital doors by black doctors and nursing staff.
Keepinn these prople out is immoral and inhuman and in the end, self-destructive
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: REFUGEE CLAMPDOWN
From: Donuel
Date: 21 Jun 18 - 12:31 PM

All of you have seemed to have forgotten something crucial, ironic and as certain as time itself. It is my favorite subject and I have a penchant for it. It is the speculation about the future.

From the low lands to the north to ports in the south, global warming will make refugees of many surprised Europeans. Floridians are as familiar with the menace of sea rise as Venice. I am stirring the embers of a one way disaster for countless generations.

If only for the reason that turnabout is fair play, making room now is better than war tommorow.

The fascist wave has agendas other than refugee clampdowns and tribal hate.

Subject: RE: BS: REFUGEE CLAMPDOWN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Jun 18 - 01:10 PM

"global warming "
Didn't think of that Don
Wonder how the Trumpeters will get the polar bears into cages!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: REFUGEE CLAMPDOWN
From: Iains
Date: 21 Jun 18 - 01:31 PM

Wonder how the Trumpeters will get the polar bears into cages!
Probably no need. With rising sea levels they will likely drown. Problem solved!

Subject: RE: BS: REFUGEE CLAMPDOWN
From: Iains
Date: 21 Jun 18 - 01:48 PM

A little balance concerning Palestinian refugees:


http://www.thetower.org/article/the-real-palestinian-refugee-crisis/

The article raises some very pertinent questions, but remember it is also an organ of Israeli propaganda.

Subject: RE: BS: REFUGEE CLAMPDOWN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Jun 18 - 03:04 PM

£The article raises some very pertinent questions, "
The questioning of the validity of Palestinian refugee status by a FORMER ISRAELI SOLDIER, which is exactly what Asaf Romirowsky is, is to be expected.
The Israelis are the only ones to ever raise that question
Golda Meir was far more straightforward in her attitude to Palestinian refugees when she said "There is no such person as a Palestinian"
I have no intention of making this a Palestinian issue; I suggest for the sake of this thread, you do not either.
This question is a world-wide one and it is about how we treat our fellow human beings - not which side we bat for
Jim Caarroll

Subject: RE: BS: REFUGEE CLAMPDOWN
From: Iains
Date: 21 Jun 18 - 03:46 PM

If we used the Palestinian criteria of refugee the descendants of the pilgrim fathers would probably claim they were refugees from religious intolerance.

The real figures are below:
"More than half of all refugees in the world come from Syria, Afghanistan, and Somalia.

    Afghan refugee situation – the afghan conflict has lasted since 1978 when the Soviet Union invaded the country. Refugees from this nation have fled to the surrounding states. And to add salt to the injury, the situation didn’t quite improve after the Soviets left. There’s been a consequent civil war, the Taliban conquest, and most recently the western-led invasion of the country following September 11, 2001, terrorist attacks by Al Qaeda. This means that over the last few decades, there’s been constant war in Afghanistan, and millions of people have fled the violence. There are about six million refugees (from Afghanistan) in neighboring Pakistan. This makes Afghanistan the number one refugee-producing nation on earth, a title that it’s held for about 32 years. More than 95% of Afghan refugees are situated win either Pakistan or Iran. Smaller groups have relocated to NATO countries and India.
    Syrian refugee crisis – in recent times, Syria’s civil war has created one of the most worrying refugee situations ever. Over 11 million have either died or fled their homes. This includes nearly 5 million people who have sought refuge outside the country. Families already inside Syria are struggling to survive, as the war continues. Hundreds of thousands are risking their lives trying to make their way to Europe, while many more others are seeking shelter in the neighboring countries. About 2.7 million Syrian refugees are currently in Turkey, 1 million in Lebanon (1 out of every 4 people in this country is a Syrian refugee), 650,000 in Jordan, and 220,000 in Iraq.
    Somalia refugee crisis – with no functioning government, clan wars that have lasted for decades, and a deadly terrorist group commanding swathes of the country, Somalia has been often described as a failed state. The 1991 collapse of the then Somali government and the resulting civil war resulted in hundreds of thousands of refugees. About 500,000 Somali refugees fled to Kenya, while nearly 250,000 went to Ethiopia. Most of those who went to Kenya settled in the expansive Dadaab refugee camp, which was designed to handle just 160,000 refugees but is currently home to half a million. There are about 100,000 more Somali refugees in Kakuma camp, as well as about 30,000 urban refugees in Kenya’s capital, Nairobi. As the international community supports a weak government that was recently installed in Somalia, both Kenya and Ethiopia are considering resettlement as a viable, durable solution.

Other countries that have produced a significant number of refugees include Congo DR, Myanmar, Eritrea, Vietnam, South Sudan, Sudan, Colombia, and Mali.

Based on the size of the population, Lebanon hosts the highest number of refugees (more than a quarter of people living in the country). Based on Economic capacity, Pakistan is the number one refugee host country, followed by Ethiopia and then Kenya."

Subject: RE: BS: Refugee Clampdown
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Jun 18 - 02:43 AM

I'm not sure what large grabs of Wiki articles have anything to do with our (the e=wealthy West's) part this Iains other than to take a '"nuffin to do with us guv" stance.

The refugee crisis is caused or exacerbated largely by outsiders like us, who use religious differences for our own political and economic ends
We pick despotic leaders as allies and trading partners (as Vince Cable said "We do trade with governments that are not democratic and have bad human rights records" .... "We do business with repressive governments and there's no denying that": HERE), and we fill our shops with goods made under virtual slave labour conditions, so we are part and parcel of the refugee crisis

The West's unquenchable thirst for oil led to our backing despots like Assad's State terrorist regime, which in turn, led to the rise is Isis, the greatest 'refugee maker in the modern world.
We are part of the refugee crises right up to our predatory necks

Three months ago Britain sold 48 fighter jets to Saudi Arabia - they will inevitably be used in the war against the Yemenis, more potential refugees from a country where 17 million lives are at risk from war and famine.

I think that, unless you can show that all thi is "fake news", we have to accept that we have an obligation to assist the people who are fleeing from conflict we are very much a part of
AS human beings, we have an obligation to anyway
If the anti-refugee attitude overwhelming Britain, America and the rest of the wealth world, had been around in the 1930s and 40s, millions more Jews would have gone to their deaths than actually did
Shame on our governments and shame on those who support their inhuman behavior

I have no intention of making this a dialogue with you; if you have no intention of discussing how we treat our fellow human beings, I suggest you move aside and let others get on with it
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Refugee Clampdown
From: Iains
Date: 22 Jun 18 - 04:35 AM

As usual you make wild statements without a shred of evidence. Unlike you I do research before posting and have used the internet as a job related research tool for over 20 years. You state:
the largest single national number of refugees are Palestinian - 7.2 million worldwide and set to grow if things go on as they are.
I find no evidence to support that assertion. I have also stated on here many times I distrust Wiki. No single source of data is entirely reliable but when multiple sources are in agreement with each other I assume their basic premise is correct. The present day situation concerning refugees has obvious causes and requires none of your incessant referencing of jews to give weight to your argument. You will simply shut the thread, as usual.
If you wish to dispute my post above lets be having some evidence.
https://www.statista.com/statistics/272999/refugees-by-source-country/
The reality is that the UNRWA definition of a Palestinian refugee is highly dubious. The insistance of right of return is dubious. How many other millions of people were displaced at the end of WW2? Do they insist on a right of return, and are all their descendants classed as refugees? Of course they are not! So why should Palestinians expect special treatment? Negotiation is not on the agenda for them as far as I can see. Where they are now is in part a problem of their own creation.


http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/worldwars/wwtwo/refugees_01.shtml

Refugees deserve sympathy and support. It is time the palestinians found another drum to bang. I have very little sympathy or patience for them.

If you wish to start another thread I can explain why, although I think I have outlined my case quite clearly.

Subject: RE: BS: Refugee Clampdown
From: Iains
Date: 22 Jun 18 - 05:05 AM

"he West's unquenchable thirst for oil led to our backing despots like Assad's State terrorist regime, which in turn, led to the rise is Isis, the greatest 'refugee maker in the modern world.
We are part of the refugee crises right up to our predatory necks"

The proven oil reserves of DSyria rank about 33rd in the world, lagging behind the UK vastly depleted reserves. Hardly a prize.
You have a very perverted view of the world if you think Assad created Isis.
Isis existed in Iraq some years before being moved into Syria to destabilize the country.
It is interesting the remaining US presence in Syria is around Seir y Zor, the hub of the countries oil industry.
    If you insist on blaming someone for the refugee crisis you need look no further than US foreign policy(meddling)

I assume to show solidarity with refugees you will no longer use oil energised transport, or food imported from foreign climes? or any items made of plastic? Should you not then you surely are a part of the problem?

Subject: RE: BS: Refugee Clampdown
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Jun 18 - 05:53 AM

No more - finished with you Iains
Address the humanity of the situation
I donyt wish to discuss with someone who pregers Guido Fawkes to Wiki
Sorry
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Refugee Clampdown
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 22 Jun 18 - 05:56 AM

An article in The Telegraph today tells of 'refugees' getting trips to Russia (no Visa needed if you've got a World Cup fan ID) and trying to cross the border into Finland.

Subject: RE: BS: Refugee Clampdown
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Jun 18 - 06:01 AM

Are you joing in the "refugee kicking" match too Nigel
Shame on you
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Refugee Clampdown
From: Iains
Date: 22 Jun 18 - 06:09 AM

Do you ever proof read before posting jimmy? I would say impregnating everyone from Guido to Wiki would be a bit of a biological challenge! A bit like circumcising the world with a 40 foot cutter!

Subject: RE: BS: Refugee Clampdown
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 22 Jun 18 - 06:16 AM

No, I'm not joining in refugee kicking. I'm reporting details of a new method being used to enter the EU.

I see no shame in that.
If you read into messages something which isn't there that is no shame to me.

Subject: RE: BS: Refugee Clampdown
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Jun 18 - 06:17 AM

Let's see if we can't get this discussion BACK ON TRACK
This seems to sum up the situation perfectly, even if it is three years old
If anything, the situation is deteriorating
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Refugee Clampdown
From: Iains
Date: 22 Jun 18 - 06:37 AM

By all means get back on track. That means leave the Jews out of the discussion and use more up to date data. Cameron ceased to be Prime Minister a considerable time ago.


Real Figures
Real Figures 2
Real Figures 3

Subject: RE: BS: Refugee Clampdown
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 22 Jun 18 - 06:57 AM

Sorry, Jim.
If you want to get this discussion back on track your link totally fails.
It is a link about would-be 'economic migrants', and you started this thread about 'refugees'.

Once a refugee reaches a safe country they should apply for asylum. By failing to do so, and attempting to get to a country which they think will give them better prospects they cease to be refugees, and become, by their own choice, economic migrants.

Lumping all these persons in as 'refugees' seriously distorts any discussion. Even those reaching the shores of the EU for the first time could be either refugees, or economic migrants, but it is not such a clear cut case as for the Calais camps of those trying to reach the UK.

Subject: RE: BS: Refugee Clampdown
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Jun 18 - 07:01 AM

None of your links in any way address the causes of the forced mass migration of people fleeing poverty and conflict
The relevance of the Jews to this discussion is the deteriorating attitude to those seeking refugees from terror when they were fleeing from the Nazis and now, when people are fr=leeingfrom wars we have facilitated and ass poverty we have helped create
That is what you are refusing to discuss
You and Nigel between you seem far happier to undermine and denigrate the victims rather than even look at th part we have played in their plight
That's why I'm more than happy to see people like you denigrate the left - Right wing politics is not exactly noted for its humanity and compassion
As I said - no more
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Refugee Clampdown
From: Senoufou
Date: 22 Jun 18 - 07:10 AM

Several of the people picked up by the Aquarius over the last few months could not have claimed to be refugees, since their countries are not at war, and there has been no particular danger to them there.
Examples are Senegal, Nigeria, Chad, Ivory Coast and Mali. These are undoubtedly economic migrants.

But what can one do? Chuck them back in the sea? Shoot them?
Thank goodness the Spanish region of Basque agreed to accept them. They can be processed (with kindness and humanity I hope) and due arrangements made for their futures.

Subject: RE: BS: Refugee Clampdown
From: Iains
Date: 22 Jun 18 - 07:14 AM

"You and Nigel between you seem far happier to undermine and denigrate the victims rather than even look at th part we have played in their plight"

As I have said before. I have spent a big chunk of my life working in Africa and the Middle East looking for economic resources to improve their respective economies.
You may regard yourself as part of the problem.
I undoubtedly am a part of the cure.

Subject: RE: BS: Refugee Clampdown
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Jun 18 - 07:31 AM

"Several of the people picked up by the Aquarius over the last few months could not have claimed to be refugees, "
Many of them are economic refugees fleeing from poverty we have helped create Sen
I was quite moved some years ago when we were in London to see a demonstration taking place outside Primark protesting their selling of imports manufactured in a country where a factory had fallen down KILLING A THOUSAND WORKERS
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Refugee Clampdown
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 22 Jun 18 - 07:41 AM

You and Nigel between you seem far happier to undermine and denigrate the victims rather than even look at the part we have played in their plight

In what way have I either undermined, or denigrated the plight of the victims?
If you have a rational complaint to make about what I have said, or an explanation about how you read my comments as 'denigration' I would be pleased to read it.

You appear to be letting your heart rule your head, and that does not always make for considered commenting. I don't doubt your commitment to your causes, but slagging-off anyone who tries to pose a rational view on those causes does nothing to make your posts appear reasonable.

Subject: RE: BS: Refugee Clampdown
From: Senoufou
Date: 22 Jun 18 - 07:58 AM

I suppose Jim it depends on one's definition. I think of refugees as denoting people fleeing conflict, persecution or natural disaster.
Of course, the countries I mentioned above have dreadful poverty, and one could be driven to seeking a better life elsewhere.

Please don't think I have no sympathy with or pity for these people.
On the contrary, I have an entire African family (about 60 in total) who depend on myself and my husband for medical help, much of their food and extra donations on special feast days. When my husband visits them, he takes four huge suitcases packed with items for them all.

And I've seen for myself the pitiable conditions of the inhabitants of many W African countries. They aren't 'shit countries' as Trump might say. The people are dignified, with a strong and distinctive culture. And just like anybody else, they want merely to feed their families and live in peace.

Subject: RE: BS: Refugee Clampdown
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Jun 18 - 08:29 AM

@I would be pleased to read it.@
It's a little like many of the arguments on this forum which ignore the overall points and shift the attention to incidentals
A few misfits who use a football match to acquire refugee status measures microscopically to the many hundreds of thousands in genuine need
It's like denigrating the Muslim community because a small number of them indulge in criminal activity - a fairly common practice here
In these discussions heart and head go hand in hand (pun intended)
Both are relevant in solving these problems - these are human beings we are talking about, not statistics
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Refugee Clampdown
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 22 Jun 18 - 09:02 AM

Yes, Jim.
Denigrate: criticize unfairly; disparage.

Where, on this thread, have I criticised unfairly or disparaged anyone (apart possibly from you)?

I have made comments which are relative to this discussion. The fact that they do nothing to move forward your one-man obsession makes them no less worth posting.

But I'll now leave this thread to you, as I don't think you'll understand what I'm saying.

Subject: RE: BS: Refugee Clampdown
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Jun 18 - 09:31 AM

"Where, on this thread..."
It is undermining the plight of refugees to compare them to a minute few dishonest individuals pretending to be refugees
Is that not to "denigrate: criticize unfairly;" disparage@ them ?
If I have misunderstood you, where have I?
Have you done the same to me - I hadn't noticed
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Refugee Clampdown
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 22 Jun 18 - 10:02 AM

No, that is not to denigrate the refugees.
Neither does lumping all immigrants together as 'refugees' help the cause of true refugees.

Subject: RE: BS: Refugee Clampdown
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Jun 18 - 11:05 AM

"Neither does lumping all immigrants together as 'refugees"
I don't Nigel - I pointed out that there were different types of refugees
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Refugee Clampdown
From: Kenny B (inactive)
Date: 22 Jun 18 - 11:20 AM

Food for thought ?

Irish Times Article 22 Jun 2018 on Resettlement of Refugees in Lisdoonvarna

Subject: RE: BS: Refugee Clampdown
From: Kenny B (inactive)
Date: 22 Jun 18 - 11:21 AM

Sorry Blue clicky didn't work

Subject: RE: BS: Refugee Clampdown
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Jun 18 - 02:55 PM

Kenny
Lisdoonvarna is living proof that we have our own redneck belt
It gets worse when Travellers are involved
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Refugee Clampdown
From: Kenny B (inactive)
Date: 22 Jun 18 - 03:18 PM

Yes as long as the majority are not judged by the failings of the minority as is par for the course.

Subject: RE: BS: Refugee Clampdown
From: Iains
Date: 22 Jun 18 - 04:06 PM

Time for a bit of clarity.
What is the difference between a refugee and an asylum seeker?

Asylum seekers are people who move across borders in search of protection, but who may not fulfil the strict criteria laid down by the 1951 Convention. Asylum seeker describes someone who has applied for protection as a refugee and is awaiting the determination of his or her status. Refugee is the term used to describe a person who has already been granted protection. Asylum seekers can become refugees if the local immigration or refugee authority deems them as fitting the international definition of refugee.

The definition of asylum seeker may vary from country to country, depending on the laws of each country. However, in most countries, the terms asylum seeker/asylee and refugee differ only in regard to the place where an individual asks for protection. Whereas an asylum seeker asks for protection after arriving in the host country, a refugee asks for protection and is granted this protected status outside of the host country.
In reality most of the migrant ships contain asylum seekers, as their status has not been determined.

Subject: RE: BS: Refugee Clampdown
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Jun 18 - 05:27 AM

I wait, probably in vain, for the subject of refugees to be approached as a massive avoidable humanitarian catastrophe rather than a statistic, or a nuisance to those of us in wealthier countries or a source of corruption and dishonesty
AMNESTY
Where have all the ****** flowers gone?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Refugee Clampdown
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 23 Jun 18 - 07:29 AM

They are all welcome as far as I am concerned Iains. Someone who has crossed continents or oceans in search of a better life is far more likely to contribute positively to the country than those whose presence here stems from a sense of entitlement based upon accident of birthplace.

Subject: RE: BS: Refugee Clampdown
From: Iains
Date: 23 Jun 18 - 08:27 AM

The UK population has increased from just under 53million in 1960 to a projected 66million today. Just under a 25% increase in nearly 50 years.
Has our housing, schooling, healthcare and other vital infrastructure shown a commensurate increase? At what point does the disparity between the growth of population and infrastructure cause collapse?
   Go visit a third world shanty town and experience the future of uncontrolled immigration!

Nothing to do with a sense of entitlement. It is called facing reality and adhering to the concept that charity starts at home. As someone who has crossed oceans and continents and seen it firsthand I can assure you I would wish such a future on no-one.
The leftist bubble always talks the talk but expects someone else to pick up the pieces when walking the walk. Uncontrolled immigration is an unmitigated disaster. Why else are so many people in opposition to the idea? And do not try to make trite responses about the differences between left and right.


https://www.opensourceinvestigations.com/violence/sweden-case-study-uncontrolled-immigration/

https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2016/jul/5/hillary-clinton-immigration-policy-a-disaster/
http://www.unihorizonte.edu.co/revistas/semilleros/vol/Vol_2_Nro_1_2017/1/Megan_Kelly_Urbanization_in_Latin_American_and_the_Cas
https://www.express.co.uk/comment/expresscomment/451945/Uncontrolled-immigration-has-brought-back-slums

Subject: RE: BS: Refugee Clampdown
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Jun 18 - 09:05 AM

"They are all welcome as far as I am concerned Iains."
Me too David
Not prepared to wash my hands of our responsibilities as some people are.
We used to call that attitude as "Ding, ding, I'm on the bus" when I was growing up in Liverpool

"Reality" = inhumanity to some people
Jim Carroll