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BS: Refugee Clampdown

Jim Carroll 21 Jun 18 - 04:42 AM
Iains 21 Jun 18 - 05:03 AM
Senoufou 21 Jun 18 - 05:13 AM
Jim Carroll 21 Jun 18 - 05:33 AM
Jim Carroll 21 Jun 18 - 05:34 AM
Senoufou 21 Jun 18 - 08:08 AM
wysiwyg 21 Jun 18 - 08:17 AM
Jack Campin 21 Jun 18 - 08:36 AM
Jim Carroll 21 Jun 18 - 09:43 AM
Dave the Gnome 21 Jun 18 - 11:07 AM
Iains 21 Jun 18 - 11:32 AM
Senoufou 21 Jun 18 - 11:36 AM
Jim Carroll 21 Jun 18 - 11:59 AM
Donuel 21 Jun 18 - 12:31 PM
Jim Carroll 21 Jun 18 - 01:10 PM
Iains 21 Jun 18 - 01:31 PM
Iains 21 Jun 18 - 01:48 PM
Jim Carroll 21 Jun 18 - 03:04 PM
Iains 21 Jun 18 - 03:46 PM
Jim Carroll 22 Jun 18 - 02:43 AM
Iains 22 Jun 18 - 04:35 AM
Iains 22 Jun 18 - 05:05 AM
Jim Carroll 22 Jun 18 - 05:53 AM
Nigel Parsons 22 Jun 18 - 05:56 AM
Jim Carroll 22 Jun 18 - 06:01 AM
Iains 22 Jun 18 - 06:09 AM
Nigel Parsons 22 Jun 18 - 06:16 AM
Jim Carroll 22 Jun 18 - 06:17 AM
Iains 22 Jun 18 - 06:37 AM
Nigel Parsons 22 Jun 18 - 06:57 AM
Jim Carroll 22 Jun 18 - 07:01 AM
Senoufou 22 Jun 18 - 07:10 AM
Iains 22 Jun 18 - 07:14 AM
Jim Carroll 22 Jun 18 - 07:31 AM
Nigel Parsons 22 Jun 18 - 07:41 AM
Senoufou 22 Jun 18 - 07:58 AM
Jim Carroll 22 Jun 18 - 08:29 AM
Nigel Parsons 22 Jun 18 - 09:02 AM
Jim Carroll 22 Jun 18 - 09:31 AM
Nigel Parsons 22 Jun 18 - 10:02 AM
Jim Carroll 22 Jun 18 - 11:05 AM
Kenny B (inactive) 22 Jun 18 - 11:20 AM
Kenny B (inactive) 22 Jun 18 - 11:21 AM
Jim Carroll 22 Jun 18 - 02:55 PM
Kenny B (inactive) 22 Jun 18 - 03:18 PM
Iains 22 Jun 18 - 04:06 PM
Jim Carroll 23 Jun 18 - 05:27 AM
David Carter (UK) 23 Jun 18 - 07:29 AM
Iains 23 Jun 18 - 08:27 AM
Jim Carroll 23 Jun 18 - 09:05 AM
Jim Carroll 23 Jun 18 - 09:15 AM
Iains 23 Jun 18 - 09:25 AM
Jack Campin 23 Jun 18 - 11:07 AM
Jim Carroll 23 Jun 18 - 11:25 AM
Jim Carroll 23 Jun 18 - 11:25 AM
Iains 23 Jun 18 - 11:29 AM
Keith A of Hertford 23 Jun 18 - 11:51 AM
Jim Carroll 23 Jun 18 - 12:59 PM
Jim Carroll 23 Jun 18 - 01:10 PM
Jim Carroll 23 Jun 18 - 01:50 PM
Iains 23 Jun 18 - 01:57 PM
David Carter (UK) 23 Jun 18 - 03:06 PM
Iains 23 Jun 18 - 05:56 PM
Jim Carroll 24 Jun 18 - 02:26 AM
David Carter (UK) 24 Jun 18 - 02:35 AM
David Carter (UK) 24 Jun 18 - 03:43 AM
Jim Carroll 24 Jun 18 - 05:20 AM
Jim Carroll 24 Jun 18 - 05:23 AM
Iains 24 Jun 18 - 05:39 AM
Jim Carroll 24 Jun 18 - 06:09 AM
Kenny B (inactive) 24 Jun 18 - 10:48 AM
Nigel Parsons 24 Jun 18 - 10:51 AM
Dave the Gnome 24 Jun 18 - 11:10 AM
Jim Carroll 24 Jun 18 - 12:16 PM
Iains 24 Jun 18 - 12:43 PM
Jim Carroll 24 Jun 18 - 01:17 PM
Jim Carroll 24 Jun 18 - 01:17 PM
David Carter (UK) 24 Jun 18 - 03:02 PM
David Carter (UK) 24 Jun 18 - 03:14 PM
Iains 24 Jun 18 - 06:28 PM
David Carter (UK) 25 Jun 18 - 02:23 AM
Jim Carroll 25 Jun 18 - 02:30 AM
Iains 25 Jun 18 - 03:27 AM
Nigel Parsons 25 Jun 18 - 03:54 AM
Jim Carroll 25 Jun 18 - 04:03 AM
Senoufou 25 Jun 18 - 04:12 AM
Iains 25 Jun 18 - 04:14 AM
Jim Carroll 25 Jun 18 - 04:24 AM
Keith A of Hertford 25 Jun 18 - 04:52 AM
Jim Carroll 25 Jun 18 - 04:54 AM
Nigel Parsons 25 Jun 18 - 04:58 AM
Keith A of Hertford 25 Jun 18 - 04:58 AM
Iains 25 Jun 18 - 05:15 AM
Senoufou 25 Jun 18 - 05:23 AM
Iains 25 Jun 18 - 05:47 AM
Jim Carroll 25 Jun 18 - 06:14 AM
Iains 25 Jun 18 - 06:40 AM
Jim Carroll 25 Jun 18 - 06:42 AM
Keith A of Hertford 25 Jun 18 - 06:49 AM
Iains 25 Jun 18 - 06:50 AM
Jim Carroll 25 Jun 18 - 07:20 AM
David Carter (UK) 25 Jun 18 - 07:24 AM
Iains 25 Jun 18 - 07:27 AM
Jim Carroll 25 Jun 18 - 07:46 AM
Iains 25 Jun 18 - 07:47 AM
Iains 25 Jun 18 - 07:49 AM
Jim Carroll 25 Jun 18 - 08:10 AM
Nigel Parsons 25 Jun 18 - 08:18 AM
Iains 25 Jun 18 - 08:31 AM
David Carter (UK) 25 Jun 18 - 09:15 AM
David Carter (UK) 25 Jun 18 - 09:16 AM
Jim Carroll 25 Jun 18 - 09:26 AM
Keith A of Hertford 25 Jun 18 - 09:36 AM
Iains 25 Jun 18 - 09:50 AM
David Carter (UK) 25 Jun 18 - 10:26 AM
Jim Carroll 25 Jun 18 - 10:35 AM
David Carter (UK) 25 Jun 18 - 11:58 AM
Jim Carroll 25 Jun 18 - 12:15 PM
Iains 25 Jun 18 - 01:38 PM
David Carter (UK) 25 Jun 18 - 02:18 PM
David Carter (UK) 25 Jun 18 - 02:28 PM
Jim Carroll 25 Jun 18 - 02:28 PM
Iains 25 Jun 18 - 02:34 PM
Jim Carroll 25 Jun 18 - 02:54 PM
Kenny B (inactive) 25 Jun 18 - 03:23 PM
robomatic 25 Jun 18 - 03:40 PM
David Carter (UK) 25 Jun 18 - 04:17 PM
Iains 25 Jun 18 - 04:52 PM
Iains 25 Jun 18 - 05:02 PM
bobad 25 Jun 18 - 05:47 PM
Jim Carroll 26 Jun 18 - 03:13 AM
Jim Carroll 26 Jun 18 - 03:51 AM
Nigel Parsons 26 Jun 18 - 04:02 AM
Jim Carroll 26 Jun 18 - 04:34 AM
Jim Carroll 26 Jun 18 - 05:01 AM
Kenny B (inactive) 26 Jun 18 - 05:02 AM
David Carter (UK) 26 Jun 18 - 05:17 AM
Jim Carroll 26 Jun 18 - 05:23 AM
Nigel Parsons 26 Jun 18 - 05:53 AM
David Carter (UK) 26 Jun 18 - 06:10 AM
Iains 26 Jun 18 - 07:13 AM
David Carter (UK) 26 Jun 18 - 08:13 AM
Senoufou 26 Jun 18 - 08:19 AM
Jack Campin 26 Jun 18 - 09:02 AM
Jack Campin 26 Jun 18 - 09:29 AM
Senoufou 26 Jun 18 - 09:31 AM
Kenny B (inactive) 26 Jun 18 - 09:35 AM
bobad 26 Jun 18 - 10:01 AM
Jim Carroll 26 Jun 18 - 11:06 AM
Jim Carroll 26 Jun 18 - 11:14 AM
Nigel Parsons 26 Jun 18 - 11:33 AM
Iains 26 Jun 18 - 11:35 AM
Jim Carroll 26 Jun 18 - 12:25 PM
Jim Carroll 26 Jun 18 - 12:45 PM
Keith A of Hertford 26 Jun 18 - 01:27 PM
Jim Carroll 26 Jun 18 - 02:38 PM
Keith A of Hertford 27 Jun 18 - 04:14 AM
Dave the Gnome 27 Jun 18 - 04:20 AM
Kenny B (inactive) 27 Jun 18 - 04:38 AM
Jim Carroll 27 Jun 18 - 04:58 AM
Keith A of Hertford 27 Jun 18 - 05:45 AM
Kenny B (inactive) 27 Jun 18 - 05:53 AM
Dave the Gnome 27 Jun 18 - 06:05 AM
Jim Carroll 27 Jun 18 - 06:32 AM
Kenny B (inactive) 27 Jun 18 - 06:34 AM
Dave the Gnome 27 Jun 18 - 06:35 AM
Iains 27 Jun 18 - 06:45 AM
Jack Campin 27 Jun 18 - 06:59 AM
Iains 27 Jun 18 - 07:31 AM
Iains 27 Jun 18 - 07:38 AM
Jim Carroll 27 Jun 18 - 07:55 AM
Keith A of Hertford 27 Jun 18 - 08:04 AM
Jim Carroll 27 Jun 18 - 08:16 AM
Iains 27 Jun 18 - 08:24 AM
Kenny B (inactive) 27 Jun 18 - 08:28 AM
Iains 27 Jun 18 - 08:46 AM
Stilly River Sage 27 Jun 18 - 08:51 AM
Jim Carroll 27 Jun 18 - 09:24 AM
Iains 27 Jun 18 - 09:55 AM
Jim Carroll 27 Jun 18 - 10:20 AM
Kenny B (inactive) 27 Jun 18 - 10:50 AM
Jim Carroll 27 Jun 18 - 11:27 AM
Iains 27 Jun 18 - 12:06 PM
Iains 27 Jun 18 - 12:12 PM
Jim Carroll 27 Jun 18 - 12:21 PM
Iains 27 Jun 18 - 12:41 PM
Jim Carroll 27 Jun 18 - 12:41 PM
Jim Carroll 27 Jun 18 - 12:47 PM
Iains 27 Jun 18 - 01:18 PM
Jim Carroll 27 Jun 18 - 02:50 PM
Jim Carroll 27 Jun 18 - 02:57 PM
Iains 28 Jun 18 - 06:01 AM
Iains 28 Jun 18 - 09:03 AM
Jim Carroll 28 Jun 18 - 09:48 AM
Nigel Parsons 28 Jun 18 - 10:03 AM
Jim Carroll 28 Jun 18 - 10:07 AM
Jim Carroll 28 Jun 18 - 10:07 AM
Jim Carroll 28 Jun 18 - 10:09 AM
Nigel Parsons 28 Jun 18 - 03:13 PM
Nigel Parsons 28 Jun 18 - 03:14 PM
Jim Carroll 28 Jun 18 - 03:54 PM
Iains 29 Jun 18 - 05:09 AM
Jim Carroll 29 Jun 18 - 07:35 AM
Jim Carroll 29 Jun 18 - 07:52 AM
Iains 29 Jun 18 - 11:16 AM
Jim Carroll 29 Jun 18 - 01:14 PM
Jim Carroll 29 Jun 18 - 01:14 PM
Jim Carroll 29 Jun 18 - 02:43 PM
Jim Carroll 29 Jun 18 - 02:43 PM
Nigel Parsons 29 Jun 18 - 04:33 PM
Kenny B (inactive) 29 Jun 18 - 06:10 PM
pdq 29 Jun 18 - 06:15 PM
Jim Carroll 29 Jun 18 - 06:15 PM
Jim Carroll 29 Jun 18 - 06:16 PM
Iains 30 Jun 18 - 12:08 PM
Bonzo3legs 30 Jun 18 - 12:29 PM
Jim Carroll 30 Jun 18 - 01:32 PM
Jim Carroll 30 Jun 18 - 01:39 PM
Iains 30 Jun 18 - 02:00 PM
Iains 30 Jun 18 - 02:33 PM
Jim Carroll 30 Jun 18 - 03:11 PM
Nigel Parsons 01 Jul 18 - 04:43 AM
Keith A of Hertford 01 Jul 18 - 04:43 AM
David Carter (UK) 01 Jul 18 - 04:46 AM
Iains 01 Jul 18 - 05:27 AM
Jim Carroll 01 Jul 18 - 05:45 AM
Keith A of Hertford 01 Jul 18 - 06:02 AM
Keith A of Hertford 01 Jul 18 - 06:29 AM
Jim Carroll 01 Jul 18 - 06:36 AM
Iains 01 Jul 18 - 06:43 AM
Iains 01 Jul 18 - 06:53 AM
Dave the Gnome 01 Jul 18 - 06:56 AM
Iains 01 Jul 18 - 07:06 AM
Jim Carroll 01 Jul 18 - 07:13 AM
David Carter (UK) 01 Jul 18 - 07:26 AM
Jim Carroll 01 Jul 18 - 10:19 AM
Keith A of Hertford 01 Jul 18 - 12:51 PM
Iains 01 Jul 18 - 01:11 PM
Jim Carroll 01 Jul 18 - 01:33 PM
Jim Carroll 01 Jul 18 - 01:35 PM
Jim Carroll 01 Jul 18 - 01:36 PM
Jim Carroll 01 Jul 18 - 01:38 PM
Dave the Gnome 01 Jul 18 - 01:43 PM
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Iains 01 Jul 18 - 02:04 PM

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Subject: BS: REFUGEE CLAMPDOWN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Jun 18 - 04:42 AM

This is NOW OFFICIAL
Italy and Malta made their position clear by turning away a rescue ship full of refugees
THe world stands to see many more refugees in the near future
What a world to hand on to our children
Jim Caarroll


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Subject: RE: BS: REFUGEE CLAMPDOWN
From: Iains
Date: 21 Jun 18 - 05:03 AM

Since the late 1970s, the international community has been well aware of the severe impact that large scale refugee populations can have on the social, economic and political life of host developing countries.


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Subject: RE: BS: REFUGEE CLAMPDOWN
From: Senoufou
Date: 21 Jun 18 - 05:13 AM

So to deter poor people trying to enter a country, one stands idly by while they drown in the sea, or traumatises their young children by sticking them in wire cages with only a foil blanket, away from their mothers?

I agree they cannot be allowed to invade a country in their thousands, and it is a huge problem. But surely proper detention centres, where medical care and humanity are offered is better than getting more and more like Adolf Hitler? What next? Gas chambers? Gunning them down as they arrive?


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Subject: RE: BS: REFUGEE CLAMPDOWN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Jun 18 - 05:33 AM

"can have on the social, economic and political life of host developing countries."
Isn't it a shame that those developing countries seem totally unaware that largely they are the cause of those refugees by their predatory exploitation
of the Third World and their habit of selling arms to despots?
Refugees are our responsibility and will continue to be so while we allow our Governments to act as they do
Our economic and political life seems to be a small price to pay for our indifference and inhumanity
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: REFUGEE CLAMPDOWN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Jun 18 - 05:34 AM

Didn't finish
It's about time we stopped regarding caring for refugees as a a charity and recognise it as a debt
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: REFUGEE CLAMPDOWN
From: Senoufou
Date: 21 Jun 18 - 08:08 AM

I agree with all you say Jim.

Poor, disadvantaged and suffering people should be seen as our duty to try and help. We certainly have no right to make things so appalling for them on arrival in order to deter the others from following suit.
'pour encourager les autres' (Voltaire - Candide)
There were one or two Ivorians on the Aquarius, which made my husband and me very sad.


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Subject: RE: BS: REFUGEE CLAMPDOWN
From: wysiwyg
Date: 21 Jun 18 - 08:17 AM

It's only going to get uglier as exploitative climate change continues to shrink the livable scope of land mass. We tried to tell people....

~S~


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Subject: RE: BS: REFUGEE CLAMPDOWN
From: Jack Campin
Date: 21 Jun 18 - 08:36 AM

can have on the social, economic and political life of host developing countries.
Isn't it a shame that those developing countries seem totally unaware that largely they are the cause of those refugees by their predatory exploitation of the Third World and their habit of selling arms to despots?


I read that as having the opposite meaning to the one you gave it.

I think the largest refugee population in any country is in Iran (from Afghanistan) and the largest as a fraction of population is in Djibouti (from Somalia). Both developing countries by most standards and neither responsible for the hell unleashed on their neighbours by Western capitalism.


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Subject: RE: BS: REFUGEE CLAMPDOWN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Jun 18 - 09:43 AM

"I think the largest refugee population in any country is in Iran"
Taking a breath )in the hope this doesn't get the thread closed), the largest single national number of refugees are Palestinian - 7.2 million worldwide and set to grow if things go on as they are.
It seems inconceivable that we won't have large numbers leaving The Yemen and Myanmar in the foreseeable future
Sorry - didn't get your "opposite meaning" comment - the top line you've highlighted was a quote from Iains
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: REFUGEE CLAMPDOWN
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 21 Jun 18 - 11:07 AM

Sen, you may be able to answer this question that has been on my mind for a while. Are there still nomadic tribes in Africa? If so, what happens when they get "settled" by governments in one place? Surely some amount of movement is necessary to allow people to hunt and or farm in different areas and not exhaust the resources of one place. Don't get me wrong here, I am not saying people should be forced to wander but neither should they be forced to live in one place or by our own narrow standards. I

I am not even sure where I am going with this so probably just trying to put my thoughts in order. Is a certain amount of movement beneficial and, if so, should there be any borders to genuine nomads? Not that refugees are all in that situation but some may be. Yes? No? Food for thought at least I hope!


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Subject: RE: BS: REFUGEE CLAMPDOWN
From: Iains
Date: 21 Jun 18 - 11:32 AM

"Sorry - didn't get your "opposite meaning" comment - the top line you've highlighted was a quote from Iains" Wrong again, as usual!

The quote was actually from the UNHCR. To be precise. The opening sentence.

Social and economic impact of large refugee populations on host developing countriesSocial and economic impact of large refugee populations on host developing countries
EC/47/SC/CRP.7

By UNHCR Standing Committee | 06 January 1997


http://www.unhcr.org/en-ie/excom/standcom/3ae68d0e10/social-economic-impact-large-refugee-populations-host-developing-countries.

As you can see. It was a problem 30 years ago.


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Subject: RE: BS: REFUGEE CLAMPDOWN
From: Senoufou
Date: 21 Jun 18 - 11:36 AM

Cor, Dave there are loads!
eg:-
Baka
Hadza
San
Twa
Tuareg
Wodaabe
Pokot
Fulani

Some are semi-nomadic, and there are indeed clashes between settled farmers and the pastoral nomads letting their herd graze on their land.

They also tend to have pitched battles between themselves, especially in the Omo valley in Ethiopia, where there are several distinct tribes. They get hold of guns and spend a lot of time picking off their rivals and organising raids.

Ivory Coast has quite a few nomads, the Fulani and Twa for example.
Climate change and drought, the increasing area of the Sahara and so on have caused no end of trouble, as people compete for decent grazing.
From what I've heard, most African governments couldn't care less about their people, only their own pockets. Corruption is rife, and poverty-stricken tribes just try and fend as best they can.
Many migrate to the towns and cities. Sadly there is much prostitution and crime, not to mention disease and ignorance.
It's a sad picture.


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Subject: RE: BS: REFUGEE CLAMPDOWN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Jun 18 - 11:59 AM

"It was a problem 30 years ago."
of course it was a problem and remains so, but it was a problem of our own making - that point not only remains, but has expanded enormously since the oil wars and various forms of ethnic cleansing which we have either supported or ignored.
What we aare seeing now is a return to the exploitative use of a situation which dates back to the fall of the British Empire, Kings Cross and other Colour Bar Strikes, Notting Hill Riots, and most blatantly, Powell's 'Rivers of Blood' speech which led to the Est End demonstrations.
Now we have Brexit and the Farage disease
The cynicism of easing the NHS problems by allowing trained medical staff to enter Britain is somewhat reminiscent of the old Giles Cartoon depicting injured racist thugs from the Notting Hill Riots being ushered though hospital doors by black doctors and nursing staff.
Keepinn these prople out is immoral and inhuman and in the end, self-destructive
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: REFUGEE CLAMPDOWN
From: Donuel
Date: 21 Jun 18 - 12:31 PM

All of you have seemed to have forgotten something crucial, ironic and as certain as time itself. It is my favorite subject and I have a penchant for it. It is the speculation about the future.

From the low lands to the north to ports in the south, global warming will make refugees of many surprised Europeans. Floridians are as familiar with the menace of sea rise as Venice. I am stirring the embers of a one way disaster for countless generations.

If only for the reason that turnabout is fair play, making room now is better than war tommorow.

The fascist wave has agendas other than refugee clampdowns and tribal hate.


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Subject: RE: BS: REFUGEE CLAMPDOWN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Jun 18 - 01:10 PM

"global warming "
Didn't think of that Don
Wonder how the Trumpeters will get the polar bears into cages!
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: REFUGEE CLAMPDOWN
From: Iains
Date: 21 Jun 18 - 01:31 PM

Wonder how the Trumpeters will get the polar bears into cages!
Probably no need. With rising sea levels they will likely drown. Problem solved!


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Subject: RE: BS: REFUGEE CLAMPDOWN
From: Iains
Date: 21 Jun 18 - 01:48 PM

A little balance concerning Palestinian refugees:


http://www.thetower.org/article/the-real-palestinian-refugee-crisis/

The article raises some very pertinent questions, but remember it is also an organ of Israeli propaganda.


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Subject: RE: BS: REFUGEE CLAMPDOWN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Jun 18 - 03:04 PM

£The article raises some very pertinent questions, "
The questioning of the validity of Palestinian refugee status by a FORMER ISRAELI SOLDIER, which is exactly what Asaf Romirowsky is, is to be expected.
The Israelis are the only ones to ever raise that question
Golda Meir was far more straightforward in her attitude to Palestinian refugees when she said "There is no such person as a Palestinian"
I have no intention of making this a Palestinian issue; I suggest for the sake of this thread, you do not either.
This question is a world-wide one and it is about how we treat our fellow human beings - not which side we bat for
Jim Caarroll


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Subject: RE: BS: REFUGEE CLAMPDOWN
From: Iains
Date: 21 Jun 18 - 03:46 PM

If we used the Palestinian criteria of refugee the descendants of the pilgrim fathers would probably claim they were refugees from religious intolerance.

The real figures are below:
"More than half of all refugees in the world come from Syria, Afghanistan, and Somalia.

    Afghan refugee situation – the afghan conflict has lasted since 1978 when the Soviet Union invaded the country. Refugees from this nation have fled to the surrounding states. And to add salt to the injury, the situation didn’t quite improve after the Soviets left. There’s been a consequent civil war, the Taliban conquest, and most recently the western-led invasion of the country following September 11, 2001, terrorist attacks by Al Qaeda. This means that over the last few decades, there’s been constant war in Afghanistan, and millions of people have fled the violence. There are about six million refugees (from Afghanistan) in neighboring Pakistan. This makes Afghanistan the number one refugee-producing nation on earth, a title that it’s held for about 32 years. More than 95% of Afghan refugees are situated win either Pakistan or Iran. Smaller groups have relocated to NATO countries and India.
    Syrian refugee crisis – in recent times, Syria’s civil war has created one of the most worrying refugee situations ever. Over 11 million have either died or fled their homes. This includes nearly 5 million people who have sought refuge outside the country. Families already inside Syria are struggling to survive, as the war continues. Hundreds of thousands are risking their lives trying to make their way to Europe, while many more others are seeking shelter in the neighboring countries. About 2.7 million Syrian refugees are currently in Turkey, 1 million in Lebanon (1 out of every 4 people in this country is a Syrian refugee), 650,000 in Jordan, and 220,000 in Iraq.
    Somalia refugee crisis – with no functioning government, clan wars that have lasted for decades, and a deadly terrorist group commanding swathes of the country, Somalia has been often described as a failed state. The 1991 collapse of the then Somali government and the resulting civil war resulted in hundreds of thousands of refugees. About 500,000 Somali refugees fled to Kenya, while nearly 250,000 went to Ethiopia. Most of those who went to Kenya settled in the expansive Dadaab refugee camp, which was designed to handle just 160,000 refugees but is currently home to half a million. There are about 100,000 more Somali refugees in Kakuma camp, as well as about 30,000 urban refugees in Kenya’s capital, Nairobi. As the international community supports a weak government that was recently installed in Somalia, both Kenya and Ethiopia are considering resettlement as a viable, durable solution.

Other countries that have produced a significant number of refugees include Congo DR, Myanmar, Eritrea, Vietnam, South Sudan, Sudan, Colombia, and Mali.

Based on the size of the population, Lebanon hosts the highest number of refugees (more than a quarter of people living in the country). Based on Economic capacity, Pakistan is the number one refugee host country, followed by Ethiopia and then Kenya."


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Subject: RE: BS: Refugee Clampdown
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Jun 18 - 02:43 AM

I'm not sure what large grabs of Wiki articles have anything to do with our (the e=wealthy West's) part this Iains other than to take a '"nuffin to do with us guv" stance.

The refugee crisis is caused or exacerbated largely by outsiders like us, who use religious differences for our own political and economic ends
We pick despotic leaders as allies and trading partners (as Vince Cable said "We do trade with governments that are not democratic and have bad human rights records" .... "We do business with repressive governments and there's no denying that": HERE), and we fill our shops with goods made under virtual slave labour conditions, so we are part and parcel of the refugee crisis

The West's unquenchable thirst for oil led to our backing despots like Assad's State terrorist regime, which in turn, led to the rise is Isis, the greatest 'refugee maker in the modern world.
We are part of the refugee crises right up to our predatory necks

Three months ago Britain sold 48 fighter jets to Saudi Arabia - they will inevitably be used in the war against the Yemenis, more potential refugees from a country where 17 million lives are at risk from war and famine.

I think that, unless you can show that all thi is "fake news", we have to accept that we have an obligation to assist the people who are fleeing from conflict we are very much a part of
AS human beings, we have an obligation to anyway
If the anti-refugee attitude overwhelming Britain, America and the rest of the wealth world, had been around in the 1930s and 40s, millions more Jews would have gone to their deaths than actually did
Shame on our governments and shame on those who support their inhuman behavior

I have no intention of making this a dialogue with you; if you have no intention of discussing how we treat our fellow human beings, I suggest you move aside and let others get on with it
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Refugee Clampdown
From: Iains
Date: 22 Jun 18 - 04:35 AM

As usual you make wild statements without a shred of evidence. Unlike you I do research before posting and have used the internet as a job related research tool for over 20 years. You state:
the largest single national number of refugees are Palestinian - 7.2 million worldwide and set to grow if things go on as they are.
I find no evidence to support that assertion. I have also stated on here many times I distrust Wiki. No single source of data is entirely reliable but when multiple sources are in agreement with each other I assume their basic premise is correct. The present day situation concerning refugees has obvious causes and requires none of your incessant referencing of jews to give weight to your argument. You will simply shut the thread, as usual.
If you wish to dispute my post above lets be having some evidence.
https://www.statista.com/statistics/272999/refugees-by-source-country/
The reality is that the UNRWA definition of a Palestinian refugee is highly dubious. The insistance of right of return is dubious. How many other millions of people were displaced at the end of WW2? Do they insist on a right of return, and are all their descendants classed as refugees? Of course they are not! So why should Palestinians expect special treatment? Negotiation is not on the agenda for them as far as I can see. Where they are now is in part a problem of their own creation.


http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/worldwars/wwtwo/refugees_01.shtml

Refugees deserve sympathy and support. It is time the palestinians found another drum to bang. I have very little sympathy or patience for them.

If you wish to start another thread I can explain why, although I think I have outlined my case quite clearly.


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Subject: RE: BS: Refugee Clampdown
From: Iains
Date: 22 Jun 18 - 05:05 AM

"he West's unquenchable thirst for oil led to our backing despots like Assad's State terrorist regime, which in turn, led to the rise is Isis, the greatest 'refugee maker in the modern world.
We are part of the refugee crises right up to our predatory necks"

The proven oil reserves of DSyria rank about 33rd in the world, lagging behind the UK vastly depleted reserves. Hardly a prize.
You have a very perverted view of the world if you think Assad created Isis.
Isis existed in Iraq some years before being moved into Syria to destabilize the country.
It is interesting the remaining US presence in Syria is around Seir y Zor, the hub of the countries oil industry.
    If you insist on blaming someone for the refugee crisis you need look no further than US foreign policy(meddling)

I assume to show solidarity with refugees you will no longer use oil energised transport, or food imported from foreign climes? or any items made of plastic? Should you not then you surely are a part of the problem?


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Subject: RE: BS: Refugee Clampdown
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Jun 18 - 05:53 AM

No more - finished with you Iains
Address the humanity of the situation
I donyt wish to discuss with someone who pregers Guido Fawkes to Wiki
Sorry
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Refugee Clampdown
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 22 Jun 18 - 05:56 AM

An article in The Telegraph today tells of 'refugees' getting trips to Russia (no Visa needed if you've got a World Cup fan ID) and trying to cross the border into Finland.


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Subject: RE: BS: Refugee Clampdown
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Jun 18 - 06:01 AM

Are you joing in the "refugee kicking" match too Nigel
Shame on you
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Refugee Clampdown
From: Iains
Date: 22 Jun 18 - 06:09 AM

Do you ever proof read before posting jimmy? I would say impregnating everyone from Guido to Wiki would be a bit of a biological challenge! A bit like circumcising the world with a 40 foot cutter!


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Subject: RE: BS: Refugee Clampdown
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 22 Jun 18 - 06:16 AM

No, I'm not joining in refugee kicking. I'm reporting details of a new method being used to enter the EU.

I see no shame in that.
If you read into messages something which isn't there that is no shame to me.


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Subject: RE: BS: Refugee Clampdown
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Jun 18 - 06:17 AM

Let's see if we can't get this discussion BACK ON TRACK
This seems to sum up the situation perfectly, even if it is three years old
If anything, the situation is deteriorating
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Refugee Clampdown
From: Iains
Date: 22 Jun 18 - 06:37 AM

By all means get back on track. That means leave the Jews out of the discussion and use more up to date data. Cameron ceased to be Prime Minister a considerable time ago.


Real Figures
Real Figures 2
Real Figures 3


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Subject: RE: BS: Refugee Clampdown
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 22 Jun 18 - 06:57 AM

Sorry, Jim.
If you want to get this discussion back on track your link totally fails.
It is a link about would-be 'economic migrants', and you started this thread about 'refugees'.

Once a refugee reaches a safe country they should apply for asylum. By failing to do so, and attempting to get to a country which they think will give them better prospects they cease to be refugees, and become, by their own choice, economic migrants.

Lumping all these persons in as 'refugees' seriously distorts any discussion. Even those reaching the shores of the EU for the first time could be either refugees, or economic migrants, but it is not such a clear cut case as for the Calais camps of those trying to reach the UK.


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Subject: RE: BS: Refugee Clampdown
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Jun 18 - 07:01 AM

None of your links in any way address the causes of the forced mass migration of people fleeing poverty and conflict
The relevance of the Jews to this discussion is the deteriorating attitude to those seeking refugees from terror when they were fleeing from the Nazis and now, when people are fr=leeingfrom wars we have facilitated and ass poverty we have helped create
That is what you are refusing to discuss
You and Nigel between you seem far happier to undermine and denigrate the victims rather than even look at th part we have played in their plight
That's why I'm more than happy to see people like you denigrate the left - Right wing politics is not exactly noted for its humanity and compassion
As I said - no more
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Refugee Clampdown
From: Senoufou
Date: 22 Jun 18 - 07:10 AM

Several of the people picked up by the Aquarius over the last few months could not have claimed to be refugees, since their countries are not at war, and there has been no particular danger to them there.
Examples are Senegal, Nigeria, Chad, Ivory Coast and Mali. These are undoubtedly economic migrants.

But what can one do? Chuck them back in the sea? Shoot them?
Thank goodness the Spanish region of Basque agreed to accept them. They can be processed (with kindness and humanity I hope) and due arrangements made for their futures.


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Subject: RE: BS: Refugee Clampdown
From: Iains
Date: 22 Jun 18 - 07:14 AM

"You and Nigel between you seem far happier to undermine and denigrate the victims rather than even look at th part we have played in their plight"

As I have said before. I have spent a big chunk of my life working in Africa and the Middle East looking for economic resources to improve their respective economies.
You may regard yourself as part of the problem.
I undoubtedly am a part of the cure.


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Subject: RE: BS: Refugee Clampdown
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Jun 18 - 07:31 AM

"Several of the people picked up by the Aquarius over the last few months could not have claimed to be refugees, "
Many of them are economic refugees fleeing from poverty we have helped create Sen
I was quite moved some years ago when we were in London to see a demonstration taking place outside Primark protesting their selling of imports manufactured in a country where a factory had fallen down KILLING A THOUSAND WORKERS
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: Refugee Clampdown
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 22 Jun 18 - 07:41 AM

You and Nigel between you seem far happier to undermine and denigrate the victims rather than even look at the part we have played in their plight

In what way have I either undermined, or denigrated the plight of the victims?
If you have a rational complaint to make about what I have said, or an explanation about how you read my comments as 'denigration' I would be pleased to read it.

You appear to be letting your heart rule your head, and that does not always make for considered commenting. I don't doubt your commitment to your causes, but slagging-off anyone who tries to pose a rational view on those causes does nothing to make your posts appear reasonable.


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Subject: RE: BS: Refugee Clampdown
From: Senoufou
Date: 22 Jun 18 - 07:58 AM

I suppose Jim it depends on one's definition. I think of refugees as denoting people fleeing conflict, persecution or natural disaster.
Of course, the countries I mentioned above have dreadful poverty, and one could be driven to seeking a better life elsewhere.

Please don't think I have no sympathy with or pity for these people.
On the contrary, I have an entire African family (about 60 in total) who depend on myself and my husband for medical help, much of their food and extra donations on special feast days. When my husband visits them, he takes four huge suitcases packed with items for them all.

And I've seen for myself the pitiable conditions of the inhabitants of many W African countries. They aren't 'shit countries' as Trump might say. The people are dignified, with a strong and distinctive culture. And just like anybody else, they want merely to feed their families and live in peace.


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Subject: RE: BS: Refugee Clampdown
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Jun 18 - 08:29 AM

@I would be pleased to read it.@
It's a little like many of the arguments on this forum which ignore the overall points and shift the attention to incidentals
A few misfits who use a football match to acquire refugee status measures microscopically to the many hundreds of thousands in genuine need
It's like denigrating the Muslim community because a small number of them indulge in criminal activity - a fairly common practice here
In these discussions heart and head go hand in hand (pun intended)
Both are relevant in solving these problems - these are human beings we are talking about, not statistics
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Refugee Clampdown
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 22 Jun 18 - 09:02 AM

Yes, Jim.
Denigrate: criticize unfairly; disparage.

Where, on this thread, have I criticised unfairly or disparaged anyone (apart possibly from you)?

I have made comments which are relative to this discussion. The fact that they do nothing to move forward your one-man obsession makes them no less worth posting.

But I'll now leave this thread to you, as I don't think you'll understand what I'm saying.


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Subject: RE: BS: Refugee Clampdown
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Jun 18 - 09:31 AM

"Where, on this thread..."
It is undermining the plight of refugees to compare them to a minute few dishonest individuals pretending to be refugees
Is that not to "denigrate: criticize unfairly;" disparage@ them ?
If I have misunderstood you, where have I?
Have you done the same to me - I hadn't noticed
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Refugee Clampdown
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 22 Jun 18 - 10:02 AM

No, that is not to denigrate the refugees.
Neither does lumping all immigrants together as 'refugees' help the cause of true refugees.


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Subject: RE: BS: Refugee Clampdown
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Jun 18 - 11:05 AM

"Neither does lumping all immigrants together as 'refugees"
I don't Nigel - I pointed out that there were different types of refugees
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: Refugee Clampdown
From: Kenny B (inactive)
Date: 22 Jun 18 - 11:20 AM

Food for thought ?

Irish Times Article 22 Jun 2018 on Resettlement of Refugees in Lisdoonvarna


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Subject: RE: BS: Refugee Clampdown
From: Kenny B (inactive)
Date: 22 Jun 18 - 11:21 AM

Sorry Blue clicky didn't work


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Subject: RE: BS: Refugee Clampdown
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Jun 18 - 02:55 PM

Kenny
Lisdoonvarna is living proof that we have our own redneck belt
It gets worse when Travellers are involved
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Refugee Clampdown
From: Kenny B (inactive)
Date: 22 Jun 18 - 03:18 PM

Yes as long as the majority are not judged by the failings of the minority as is par for the course.


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Subject: RE: BS: Refugee Clampdown
From: Iains
Date: 22 Jun 18 - 04:06 PM

Time for a bit of clarity.
What is the difference between a refugee and an asylum seeker?

Asylum seekers are people who move across borders in search of protection, but who may not fulfil the strict criteria laid down by the 1951 Convention. Asylum seeker describes someone who has applied for protection as a refugee and is awaiting the determination of his or her status. Refugee is the term used to describe a person who has already been granted protection. Asylum seekers can become refugees if the local immigration or refugee authority deems them as fitting the international definition of refugee.

The definition of asylum seeker may vary from country to country, depending on the laws of each country. However, in most countries, the terms asylum seeker/asylee and refugee differ only in regard to the place where an individual asks for protection. Whereas an asylum seeker asks for protection after arriving in the host country, a refugee asks for protection and is granted this protected status outside of the host country.
In reality most of the migrant ships contain asylum seekers, as their status has not been determined.


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Subject: RE: BS: Refugee Clampdown
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Jun 18 - 05:27 AM

I wait, probably in vain, for the subject of refugees to be approached as a massive avoidable humanitarian catastrophe rather than a statistic, or a nuisance to those of us in wealthier countries or a source of corruption and dishonesty
AMNESTY
Where have all the ****** flowers gone?
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Refugee Clampdown
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 23 Jun 18 - 07:29 AM

They are all welcome as far as I am concerned Iains. Someone who has crossed continents or oceans in search of a better life is far more likely to contribute positively to the country than those whose presence here stems from a sense of entitlement based upon accident of birthplace.


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Subject: RE: BS: Refugee Clampdown
From: Iains
Date: 23 Jun 18 - 08:27 AM

The UK population has increased from just under 53million in 1960 to a projected 66million today. Just under a 25% increase in nearly 50 years.
Has our housing, schooling, healthcare and other vital infrastructure shown a commensurate increase? At what point does the disparity between the growth of population and infrastructure cause collapse?
   Go visit a third world shanty town and experience the future of uncontrolled immigration!

Nothing to do with a sense of entitlement. It is called facing reality and adhering to the concept that charity starts at home. As someone who has crossed oceans and continents and seen it firsthand I can assure you I would wish such a future on no-one.
The leftist bubble always talks the talk but expects someone else to pick up the pieces when walking the walk. Uncontrolled immigration is an unmitigated disaster. Why else are so many people in opposition to the idea? And do not try to make trite responses about the differences between left and right.


https://www.opensourceinvestigations.com/violence/sweden-case-study-uncontrolled-immigration/

https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2016/jul/5/hillary-clinton-immigration-policy-a-disaster/
http://www.unihorizonte.edu.co/revistas/semilleros/vol/Vol_2_Nro_1_2017/1/Megan_Kelly_Urbanization_in_Latin_American_and_the_Cas
https://www.express.co.uk/comment/expresscomment/451945/Uncontrolled-immigration-has-brought-back-slums


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Subject: RE: BS: Refugee Clampdown
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Jun 18 - 09:05 AM

"They are all welcome as far as I am concerned Iains."
Me too David
Not prepared to wash my hands of our responsibilities as some people are.
We used to call that attitude as "Ding, ding, I'm on the bus" when I was growing up in Liverpool

"Reality" = inhumanity to some people
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Refugee Clampdown
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Jun 18 - 09:15 AM

"The leftist bubble always talks the talk b"
Happy to be identified as such if you are representative of Right wing thought Iains
You have offered no argument to disprove the argument that we are part of the cause of the refugee crisis so your attitude appears to be "we made the mess - fuck you - you sort it out"

As I said, happy to be separated by that attitude as long as you care to do so
Feel free
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Refugee Clampdown
From: Iains
Date: 23 Jun 18 - 09:25 AM

How many refugees do you have in your front room Jimmy? Easy to talk about solutions when isolated on the western seaboard. Is there a part of uncontrolled you cannot understand? Apart from your usual responses that is! Until you have seen the results of uncontrolled immigration I do not think you can comment with any kind of authority.

Mouthing platitudes does not bring home the bacon!


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Subject: RE: BS: Refugee Clampdown
From: Jack Campin
Date: 23 Jun 18 - 11:07 AM

Very short summary from UNHCR

The way racist ideology works is that not only does the West blame the victims, they blame the countries like Iran and Lebanon that help the victims


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Subject: RE: BS: Refugee Clampdown
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Jun 18 - 11:25 AM

"How many refugees do you have in your front room Jimmy? "
What a predictably stupid (and defensive) response
The refugee problem is an international one caused by politicians displaying international greed and self interest on our behalf
Individuals "taking in" refugees would give the impression that something is being done about it
You miss the point - addressing the refugee crisis is as much an act of self-interest as much as it is one of altruism.
Even if I wanted my family to espouse the Trumpist's 'Brave New World of Dog eat dog (I don't, I'd rather they were drowned in a bucket at birth than turn out like those people), I most certainly don't want them to inherit a life where they need to check under their cars for a bomb before they drive off in the morning.
One of the most dangerous side products of our unequal predatory world is a massive rise in international terrorism - Isis being a perfect example.
People in trouble who are exploited, marginalised and ignored will turn to those who appear to offer a solution.
Even the most stupid of those supporting murderous wars like Vietnam realised the value of winning 'hearts and minds'
It seems to be beyond your comprehension
Your display of brutishness is typical of everything that is gradually destroying what remains of civilised society
'Bout time you BOUGHT THE JACKET
You are neither clever or even funny - just brutish
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Refugee Clampdown
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Jun 18 - 11:25 AM

"How many refugees do you have in your front room Jimmy? "
What a predictably stupid (and defensive) response
The refugee problem is an international one caused by politicians displaying international greed and self interest on our behalf
Individuals "taking in" refugees would give the impression that something is being done about it
You miss the point - addressing the refugee crisis is as much an act of self-interest as much as it is one of altruism.
Even if I wanted my family to espouse the Trumpist's 'Brave New World of Dog eat dog (I don't, I'd rather they were drowned in a bucket at birth than turn out like those people), I most certainly don't want them to inherit a life where they need to check under their cars for a bomb before they drive off in the morning.
One of the most dangerous side products of our unequal predatory world is a massive rise in international terrorism - Isis being a perfect example.
People in trouble who are exploited, marginalised and ignored will turn to those who appear to offer a solution.
Even the most stupid of those supporting murderous wars like Vietnam realised the value of winning 'hearts and minds'
It seems to be beyond your comprehension
Your display of brutishness is typical of everything that is gradually destroying what remains of civilised society
'Bout time you BOUGHT THE JACKET
You are neither clever or even funny - just brutish
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Refugee Clampdown
From: Iains
Date: 23 Jun 18 - 11:29 AM

Top Host Countries for Refugees in 2016
Rank
Host Country
Total refugees
Total population
1
Turkey
2,869,421
80,745,020
2
Pakistan
1,352,560
197,015,955
3
Lebanon
1,012,969
6,082,357
4
Iran
979,435
81,162,788
5
Uganda
940,835
42,862,958
6
Ethiopia
791,631
104,957,438
7
Jordan
685,197
9,702,353
8
Germany
669,482
82,114,224
9
Democratic Republic of the Congo
451,956
81,339,988
10
Kenya
451,099
49,699,862
11
Sudan
421,466
40,533,330
12
Chad
391,251
14,899,994
13
Cameroon
375,415
24,053,727
14
China
317,255
1,410,000,000
15
France
304,546
64,979,548
16
Tanzania
281,498
57,310,019
17
Bangladesh
276,207
164,669,751
18
United States
272,959
324,459,463
19
Yemen
269,783
28,250,420
20
South Sudan
262,560
12,575,714

Sources: UNHCR Global Trends 2016, United Nations, World Population Prospects: The 2017 Revision.

By way of contrast immigrants and emmigrants give a very different set of figures.
https://www.zerohedge.com/news/2017-01-28/which-countries-host-and-send-most-migrants


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Subject: RE: BS: Refugee Clampdown
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 Jun 18 - 11:51 AM

Asylum and refugees: How Ireland compares to the rest of the world
A new analysis of official figures, by TheJournal

TAOISEACH ENDA KENNY yesterday responded to public outcry by saying Ireland could take in more than 1,800 refugees, as our contribution to alleviating the current crisis.
But how have we been doing over the last few years?
According to a new analysis by TheJournal.ie of data from the UNHCR (the UN Refugee Agency), Ireland ranks poorly among European nations for our administrative treatment of asylum-seekers over the last few years, by several different measures.
We have recognised fewer asylum claims than many smaller or similarly-sized countries, since 2012.
For example, Ireland’s favourable asylum decisions were 20 times fewer than Norway’s, despite the two countries having almost identical populations. …

Our analysis also found that Ireland grants refugee status at a strikingly low rate for a developed, EU member state, rejecting more applications than it accepts, and deferring decisions in most cases.
And even accounting for our relatively small population, Ireland ranks lower than Bulgaria, Armenia and next-door neighbours the UK.

Kosovar Albanian refugees arriving in Farranfore airport, Co Kerry, in 1999.
Source: EMPICS Sports Photo Agency
This week, a coalition of non-profits, including the Immigrant Council of Ireland, the Irish Refugee Council, and Trócaire, called the government’s response to the current crisis “unacceptable,” saying:
Ireland is failing to adequately respond to the biggest refugee crisis since World War II.
This is an extraordinary situation and it is unacceptable that the Irish Government has not provided a clear statement of leadership, when Irish people are calling for action.


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Subject: RE: BS: Refugee Clampdown
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Jun 18 - 12:59 PM

Still nothing resembling humanity Iains
Didn't expect so

Not sure what Keith's returning offering is about
Surely not "It's OK to ignore and eject refugees because others do it"
Nah - couldn't be that stupidly predictable!!
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Refugee Clampdown
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Jun 18 - 01:10 PM

Neither of you address the fact that Britain is very much a part of the refugee crisis through warms sales and propping up despots
Ireland, for all its many faults, is part of neither
The Irish Government is a right-wing one, which makes my point - the appalling miseries refugees and asylum-seekers is a right wing one - a greedy, predatory and inhuman system
Hands up those of you who support such politics - I can't see your responses but it's a rhetorical question anyway
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Refugee Clampdown
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Jun 18 - 01:50 PM

Incidentally Keith
Your quote is three years old
FROM THE SAME PUBLICATION - THREE MONTHS AGO
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Refugee Clampdown
From: Iains
Date: 23 Jun 18 - 01:57 PM

JimI already explained that the population of the UK has grown by nearly 25% since 1960. With uncontrolled immigration what will the figure be in the next few years. If the system is overwhelmed no one will benefit. The who, what, why, when, where does not alter this inescapable fact one iota.
What happened to the native peoples of Australia, New Zealand, the US and Canada when overwhelmed by what would be called today, illegal immigrants? What happened to their culture and way of life?
You can wring your hands and bleat as much as you like but history shows that when the indigenous population is overwhelmed genocide results.
That is a fact!


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Subject: RE: BS: Refugee Clampdown
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 23 Jun 18 - 03:06 PM

Yes Iains, we can accommodate 66 million. We can accommodate more, as long as they have positive attitudes. And I am not in the least interested in your links, lets take them one by one:

Opensourceinvestigations - American blog, largely pro Trump

Washington Times (note: not the Washington Post, a far more respected journal) - right wing publication which promotes climate change denial

Unihorizonte Megan Kelly article - gives a 404 error so hard to be sure. Are we talking about Megan Kelly or Megyn Kelly?

Daily Express - British far right sewer press.


The immigrants are fine by me. As it happens at present my wife is being treated in an excellent NHS hospital. And judging from their names, accents, and in some cases their biography on the hospital website, at least 50% of the staff involved in her treatment and the treatment of those around her are either immigrants or children of immigrants.

So the more immigrants the better.


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Subject: RE: BS: Refugee Clampdown
From: Iains
Date: 23 Jun 18 - 05:56 PM

"So the more immigrants the better"

Apples and pears I believe.

Was the thread title not "Refugee Clampdown"

Here is another link for your delectation and delight. I suggest you read it as you appear confused. Oh and by the way this is from the UNHCR. Perhaps you would like to babble about the parentage of this organisation as well.

http://www.unhcr.org/en-ie/news/latest/2016/7/55df0e556/unhcr-viewpoint-refugee-migrant-right.html

Once upon a time the general name asylum seeker was used where a person first made landfall. Should they then choose to travel to another country to seek milk and honey they may well be classed as economic migrants unless their status of refugee has been previously clarified.


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Subject: RE: BS: Refugee Clampdown
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Jun 18 - 02:26 AM

"JimI already explained that the population of the UK has grown by nearly 25% since 1960."
While Britain behaves like it continues to it will continue to add to and exacerbate the refugee problem - we profit from poorer countries and by doig so keep them poor - we profit from the supporting and selling arms to their dictators
And you decide there is no room for those we profit from
Sorry - this is beginning to read like a Party Political Broadcast on behalf of the British national Party - now we've established where you are coming from I think we're finished here   
And there's me thinking Enoch Powell was dead and buried!

TRY THESE FOR FACTS
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Refugee Clampdown
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 24 Jun 18 - 02:35 AM

I am not confused Iains, I am angry. Angry with people who denigrate refugees, economic migrants, professional immigrants, all of whom are making the country better. Angry with people who babble on about them whilst not having the energy to get off their own arses and either improve their own lives in the UK, or try working in another country, another culture. The Wall of Gammon I think they are called. I am quite happy to have apples, pears, oranges, mangos, even durian fruit, to improve the general level of humanity around me.


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Subject: RE: BS: Refugee Clampdown
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 24 Jun 18 - 03:43 AM

Jim, Enoch Powell may be dead, but his hateful attitudes live on. And Mosley. There are plenty of people prepared to say "but he was right, wasn't he?". And the number of signatures on the petition to have the vile Tommy Robinson released shows that these vile attitudes still pollute our society. I don't know whether Ireland may have been more successful if rooting out the hatred, since it has gone a long way towards reconciling its own domestic hatreds, maybe it has. Maybe it is just a rather more mature society.


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Subject: RE: BS: Refugee Clampdown
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Jun 18 - 05:20 AM

The Republic of Ireland is relatively low, last year racist incidents rose from 190 to 246 nationally
This rise was described as "disturbing" and has been put down to "The Trump Effect"
The redneck behaviour you highlighted occasionally happens but it is not a major problem
Ireland has a regular official ceremony welcoming new citizens.
The Jewish Community is full of praise for the lack of antisemitism
Racism towards Travellers is a running sore here, but they are beginning to organise themselves to fight it
I think the North shares many of the problems of Mainland Britain; former Loyalist Groups have been implicated in organised racist attacks on immigrants
I should say that, as far as I know, this is an urban phenomenon - country people tend to get on with one another no matter where they come from   
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Refugee Clampdown
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Jun 18 - 05:23 AM

Ireland is largely conscious of (though some people occasionally forget) that the Irish, of all people, have depended on being able to emigrate to other countries in order to survive
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Refugee Clampdown
From: Iains
Date: 24 Jun 18 - 05:39 AM

What Tommy Robinson may have been in the past can easily be verified.
I think many people are upset by the fact he was tucked away for upturning stones and exposing facts the government would prefer to deny.
As of January 2018, Labour had 552,000 members, compared to 124,000 Conservative members reported in March 2018.
Free Tommy Robinson petition 626500 signatures. Nearly as many as the combined membership of the Labour and Conservative parties.

Now did he get those signatures for being a rightwing thug?
Or because his supporters believe he was exposing truths the government want hidden?

I believe his case was the first time a D notice had been issued for a non security matter.
I believe his arrest, trial, and subsequent incarceration set a record for speed of execution.
There has been a distinct lack of transparency over the entire proceedings.

Many are uncomfortable with the manner of his arrest, expedited trial and secrecy surrounding the affair. That is why I believe that the petition has gained so many signatures. Special Branch no doubt has many more bulging files based on those same signatures.


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Subject: RE: BS: Refugee Clampdown
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Jun 18 - 06:09 AM

We really should not allow this individual to divert this from refugees to support for Tommy Robinson's thuggery
I would prefer him to stop - if he doesn't a mod should remove him as a troll
Unfortunately, mods tend to close threads rather than do this
Stop it now
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Refugee Clampdown
From: Kenny B (inactive)
Date: 24 Jun 18 - 10:48 AM

Jim you are not reading what is stated in previous posts
Dave Carter raised the name of Tommy Robinson Date: 24 Jun 18 - 03:43 AM
Iains mwerely replied giving the scale of support for the petition and the reasons people put thier names to the petition, without supporting him as a person

Are you denying him the right to post when you have posted references to Travellers & Loyalist groups and many of your other favorite subjects?????
When YOU open a forum yourself YOU can impose Your rules, until then the ball is firmly in the mods hands and not up your jersey and you on the way home mumping


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Subject: RE: BS: Refugee Clampdown
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 24 Jun 18 - 10:51 AM

Jim, the subject of Tommy Robinson was introduced to the thread by David Carter (UK), who appears to be siding with you in this discussion.

If you're identifying Iains as a troll, I think you're missing with your aim.
Of course, I doubt you will call for David Carter to be removed.

So maybe the alternative you gave, of closing this thread will be the only way forward.


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Subject: RE: BS: Refugee Clampdown
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 24 Jun 18 - 11:10 AM

You may believe what you like Iains but that does not make it true. He was not 'tucked away for upturning stones' but quite rightly incarcerated for breach of the peace and contempt of court. Nor did his case break any records for speed. I suggest you check your 'facts'.

Nigel, you are right that the subject was brought up by someone else but it is only Iains that is defending him. David Carter was just using him as an example.


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Subject: RE: BS: Refugee Clampdown
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Jun 18 - 12:16 PM

Robinson was brought in to emphasise the bigotry towards all forms of immigrants, refugees included
We've already had one thread closed because it was used to gloat over how many signatures his vile racism got
"who appears to be siding with you in this discussion."
Are you indicating that you support him?
Just like to know where we stand
So far your only input om refugees on this thread is to imply their dishonesty in pretending to be what they are not
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Refugee Clampdown
From: Iains
Date: 24 Jun 18 - 12:43 PM

"So far your only input om refugees on this thread is to imply their dishonesty in pretending to be what they are not"

As ever you demonstrate your own stupidity. Demonstrate where I have accused immigrants of dishonesty. Even the UNHCR recognizes it is no easy task to differentiate between asylum seekers and economic migrants.
If you had the slightest grasp of the subject you would have labelled the thread asylum seeker clampdown.

The status of asylum seekers is clearly outlined in international agreements. namely The Convention Relating to the Status of Refugees, also known as the 1951 Refugee Convention, is a United Nations multilateral treaty that defines who is a refugee, and sets out the rights of individuals who are granted asylum and the responsibilities of nations that grant asylum.

Having worked in the south china sea at the tail end of the Vietnam war, I saw Vietnamese boat people firsthand. This does lead to a slight understanding and appreciation of the issues.


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Subject: RE: BS: Refugee Clampdown
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Jun 18 - 01:17 PM

"As ever you demonstrate your own stupidity."
If you read the posting you might have noticed I was addressing Nigel - my response followed his
If you actually read what people wrote you would see I actually included his own words
Try to keep up

Back to the subject
European leaders have met to find a humane inter-country solution to the refugee crisis
The meeting is prompted be the growing number of refugees being left on board ships because of having been refused entry

DEJA VU

Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Refugee Clampdown
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Jun 18 - 01:17 PM

Vietnam Boat People ??????????????????????????????
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Refugee Clampdown
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 24 Jun 18 - 03:02 PM

"Now did he get those signatures for being a rightwing thug?"

Yes he did. Sadly, that many people in the UK are prepared to excuse rightwing thuggery.

"Having worked in the south china sea at the tail end of the Vietnam war, I saw Vietnamese boat people firsthand."

And having lived in Australia for fair chunks of time, I have seen what they have become, what a success they have made of their lives, and how integrated they are. Ok, it wasn't always so good, shortly after they arrived with nothing there were some problems in the Cabramatta area, but now they are productive and valued members of society.


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Subject: RE: BS: Refugee Clampdown
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 24 Jun 18 - 03:14 PM

"Dave Carter raised the name of Tommy Robinson Date: 24 Jun 18 - 03:43 AM
Iains mwerely replied giving the scale of support for the petition and the reasons people put thier names to the petition, without supporting him as a person"

And it was precisely the scale of this support which was my point. As a marker of how low the UK has sunk, that over 600,000 people could support a thug of this type. Although the numbers supporting Mosley and Powell in the past may not have been so different, so the darkness at the heart of UK society may not be new.


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Subject: RE: BS: Refugee Clampdown
From: Iains
Date: 24 Jun 18 - 06:28 PM

As you cannot have any idea as to what motivated people to sign a petition, your conclusions merely support your own prejudice. Bit of a circular argument going nowhere I would suggest.

Jimmy it is more fruitful to discuss events with a dead parrot than to seek any rational dialogue with you.


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Subject: RE: BS: Refugee Clampdown
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 25 Jun 18 - 02:23 AM

I don't care what motivated them, they did it. Ignorance is no defence.


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Subject: RE: BS: Refugee Clampdown
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Jun 18 - 02:30 AM

"Jimmy it is more fruitful to discuss events with a dead parrot than to seek any rational dialogue with you"
As good an excuse as any for not replying to (or even reading) what is put up, I suppose.
Your behaviour towards refugees is inhuman and your refusal to discuss the question with anything other than insulting attempts to bully is typical of your (and Tommy Robinson's type) type
You are presented with a photo of a dead child being carried from the sea - your response - to cyber-bully from the safety of distance and anonymity
That really is the way to win respect and argument - keep it up
- it is an interesting insight into how the other half think and feel (or don't, as the case may be)

"As you cannot have any idea as to what motivated people to sign a petition"
TRY THIS FOR SIZE, BLUE EYES!
OR THIS MAYBE?
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Refugee Clampdown
From: Iains
Date: 25 Jun 18 - 03:27 AM

I think recent events have clearly demonstrated that polls are meaningless. They got it wrong for the referendum, they got it wrong for the last election,they got it wrong for klingon clinton. What miraculous incantation have you muttered over your linked poll to suggest it signifies anything other than yet more meaningless twaddle?
Why bother quoting anything from a totally discredited system? Do you think I am stupid?
I always find it better to discuss an idea when in possession of the facts, having your head full of leftard nonsense and erroneous ideology leads to meaningless unsupported arguments that close threads.


a sensible article!


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Subject: RE: BS: Refugee Clampdown
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 25 Jun 18 - 03:54 AM

So far your only input om refugees on this thread is to imply their dishonesty in pretending to be what they are not
Jim Carroll


The 'dishonesty' is yours Jim.
You refuse to accept that the term refugees applies to a number of persons in specific circumstances. There are differences between:
Migrants
Immigrants
Asylum seekers
Refugees.
While you continue to wrongly describe all the above (based on how they arrive in Europe) as 'refugees' you will never be able to construct a reasoned argument on the subject.
I have not implied that refugees are claiming to be what they are not. I refuse to accept that all those trying to reach Europe, with an intent to settle, are refugees.


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Subject: RE: BS: Refugee Clampdown
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Jun 18 - 04:03 AM

"recent events have clearly demonstrated that polls are meaningless. "
RECENT EVENTS
MORE RECENT EVENTS
EVEN MORE RECENT EVENTS
Your list concerns predictions that went wrong - always unreliable
The links cover actual reports of actual events

"yet more meaningless twaddle?"
As confident of your arguments as that, are you?
When will you come to terms with the fact that bullies impress only when they have influence; when they don't they are figures of fun

If you have no intention of taking part in this discussion why sabotage it with your childishly insulting trollish behaviour
Respond to the facts or put some up of your own
Any school-child can deny things thay find uncomfortable - that is what they do (it used tobe called the 'Violet Elizabeth Bott syndrome)
That appears to be your problem
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Refugee Clampdown
From: Senoufou
Date: 25 Jun 18 - 04:12 AM

Exactly Nigel. They are distinct groups with different histories, aims and needs.

But my view is that when they arrive (or are found almost drowned!) they are often in a dire state, in need of immediate help, and I feel we just cannot refuse to extend a hand.

They can be received with humanity, then once recovered and in a better state, they can be processed, and solutions found to their varied predicaments.

One cannot and must never separate families, and especially not young children from their parents. That's unspeakably cruel.


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Subject: RE: BS: Refugee Clampdown
From: Iains
Date: 25 Jun 18 - 04:14 AM

Your list concerns predictions that went wrong - always unreliable
Wow!!! You escape a darwin award this time!
If only the rest of your offerings possessed such blinding lucidity.


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Subject: RE: BS: Refugee Clampdown
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Jun 18 - 04:24 AM

"I have not implied that refugees are claiming to be what they are not. "
You raised an accusation (which incidentally originates from a report from a fundamentalist Iranian newspaper reporter). that 'refugees' were entering the country illegally by buying tickets for football matches'
"The Telegraph today tells of 'refugees' getting trips to Russia (no Visa needed if you've got a World Cup fan ID) and trying to cross the border into Finland.
The implication of the inverted commas around the word 'refugees' implies that they are fakes.
"You refuse to accept that the term refugees applies to a number of persons in specific circumstances"
I do no such thing Nigel - where have I?
I say that there are refugees from wars we have helped to cause and there are refugees from poverty we have equally helped to cause
I have never mentioned either migrants nor immigrants
The dishonesty is yours
Like Iains, you have at no time attempted to address the conditions of the refugees or the cause of their being forced to flee from they homes - you certainly have never addressed Britain's part in this awful situation, neither to deny or defend it
You input has been to question their validity - that seems to be the right-wing approach to such matters - blame the victims
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Refugee Clampdown
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Jun 18 - 04:52 AM

The way to help war torn and poverty stricken countries is not to remove their people but to deal with their problems.


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Subject: RE: BS: Refugee Clampdown
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Jun 18 - 04:54 AM

"but to deal with their problems."
No it isn't Keith - it is by stopping being a major part of their problems
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Refugee Clampdown
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 25 Jun 18 - 04:58 AM

You raised an accusation (which incidentally originates from a report from a fundamentalist Iranian newspaper reporter). that 'refugees' were entering the country illegally by buying tickets for football matches'
If by 'the country' you mean UK, then no, as the next line you quote shows I said they were entering Finland.

The implication of the inverted commas around the word 'refugees' implies that they are fakes.
No, at this point no-one knows whether or not they are refugees. (except in the very broad sense of the term which only you use)

I say that there are refugees from wars we have helped to cause and there are refugees from poverty we have equally helped to cause
I fully accept that there are those trying to escape the results of our historic actions. But I do not accept (as you appear to) that everyone trying to emigrate from Africa to Europe comes under this description.
As Eliza says, there is no reason not to offer humanitarian aid, but that does not mean that all those arriving are refugees.

I have never mentioned either migrants nor immigrants
True, but that is probably only because you lump them all together under an inaccurate term of 'refugees'.


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Subject: RE: BS: Refugee Clampdown
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Jun 18 - 04:58 AM

It comforts you to imagine that Britain is to blame for all the world's problems.
It is just dogma Jim.


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Subject: RE: BS: Refugee Clampdown
From: Iains
Date: 25 Jun 18 - 05:15 AM

One cannot and must never separate families, and especially not young children from their parents. That's unspeakably cruel.
But the reality is

"More than 4,000 children every year in England and Wales move in with their grandmothers because their mother has been sent to jail. Another 5,000 are taken in by other family members or friends. Some 2,000 others are adopted or fostered because their mother is behind bars."

11000 children each year.


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Subject: RE: BS: Refugee Clampdown
From: Senoufou
Date: 25 Jun 18 - 05:23 AM

But Iains, what is the connection between women committing crimes and receiving jail sentences, and refugee women having their children wrested from them for no apparent reason other than to discourage other families to arrive?
It's very sad for the children themselves in both cases, but a prison is no place for a child, whereas one can provide suitable family facilities for refugee folk.

(And by 'refugee' I refer to all displaced persons seeking shelter and help)


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Subject: RE: BS: Refugee Clampdown
From: Iains
Date: 25 Jun 18 - 05:47 AM

If illegal immigrants are not treated as criminals borders would have no meaning and Brexit would be a farce.
If criminality had no consequences our society would become a mad max nightmare.
Society can only function if rules are adhered to. The rule of law does not enable picking and choosing. It is what it is.


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Subject: RE: BS: Refugee Clampdown
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Jun 18 - 06:14 AM

"It comforts you to imagine that Britain is to blame for all the world's problems."
It comforts you that Britain is free from all sin - including profiting from death by selling weapons to mass murderers

" I said they were entering Finland."
So?
What difference does it matter where they are entering - cast aspersions on one lot and you splash everybody with your accusations
Come- o Nigel stop wriggling
Say what you have to say about the plight of refugees - are we guilty otr not guilty of what they are having to put up witth?
" what is the connection between women committing crimes and receiving jail sentences"
It's handy in associating refugees with criminality Sen
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Refugee Clampdown
From: Iains
Date: 25 Jun 18 - 06:40 AM

Que????????


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Subject: RE: BS: Refugee Clampdown
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Jun 18 - 06:42 AM

"Society can only function if rules are adhered to. "
A NICE BLAST FROM THE PAST IAINS
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Refugee Clampdown
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Jun 18 - 06:49 AM

Jim,
It comforts you that Britain is free from all sin - including profiting from death by selling weapons to mass murderers

I comforts me to know that our restrictions on arms sales are the tightest in the world.

The war in Syria started with the Arab Spring. West not to blame.
It escalated into a civil war. West not to blame.
Assad almost lost. West not to blame.
Assad saved by arms supplied by Russia, China and Iran. West not to blame.
It became part of the centuries old Sunni/Shia conflict. West not to blame.


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Subject: RE: BS: Refugee Clampdown
From: Iains
Date: 25 Jun 18 - 06:50 AM

And of course if we pursue the blinky pinky, luvvy duvvy, hug a tree or leftard world of jimmy we have the following.


https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/frontlin


I wondered when little jimmy would drag up the jews. He must feel he is losing the argument. Again.
Red warning!!!! Thread closure imminent.


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Subject: RE: BS: Refugee Clampdown
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Jun 18 - 07:20 AM

"I wondered when little jimmy would drag up the jews. "
Will you stop this childish abusive behaviour
If anything closes this thread it will be your inability to control your insulting insecurity
The parallels are obvious - refugees in trouble being refused sanctuary
If you can't argue against the similarities then you have no alternative but to accept them
You have no case - you never have had unless you start to come up with half-decent, well thought out argument, you never will have

Try this thoughtful New York Times article (can't blue-clickie)
NEW YORK TIMES

Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Refugee Clampdown
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 25 Jun 18 - 07:24 AM

Iains, amazingly, has found a way to make brexit a bigger farce than it already is!!


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Subject: RE: BS: Refugee Clampdown
From: Iains
Date: 25 Jun 18 - 07:27 AM

https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/frontline/article/how-europe-left-itself-open-to-terrorism/

http://www.newsweek.com/eu-referendum-brexit-immigration-border-control-510740


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Subject: RE: BS: Refugee Clampdown
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Jun 18 - 07:46 AM

So now we have it refugees = terrorism
Why didn't you say that in the first place?
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Refugee Clampdown
From: Iains
Date: 25 Jun 18 - 07:47 AM

and of course we all know that Isis has threatened to use migrant corridors to infiltrate Europe. Just as well we are retaining control of our borders. Even the Schengen area is slowly unraveling because of the terrorist threat.


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Subject: RE: BS: Refugee Clampdown
From: Iains
Date: 25 Jun 18 - 07:49 AM

Refugee - terrorist. only in your midget brain jimmy.


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Subject: RE: BS: Refugee Clampdown
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Jun 18 - 08:10 AM

"Refugee - terrorist. only in your midget brain jimmy."
"and of course we all know that Isis has threatened to use migrant corridors to infiltrate Europe."
I think you posted too quickly, don't you?
Straight out of Tommy Robinson's agenda
Some mothers do 'ave 'em, don't they?
Checkmate, I think
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Refugee Clampdown
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 25 Jun 18 - 08:18 AM

Jim,
I'm bashing my head against a brick wall here, but I'll try once more.

and of course we all know that Isis has threatened to use migrant corridors to infiltrate Europe does not equate refugees with terrorists.
The words refugee & migrant are not interchangeable.


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Subject: RE: BS: Refugee Clampdown
From: Iains
Date: 25 Jun 18 - 08:31 AM

Stupid boy!

https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2017/jan/29/isis-finds-success-infiltrating-terrorists-into-re/


https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/apr/28/islamic-state-fighters-infiltrate-europe-posing-injured-libyan-soldiers

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/apr/26/isis-trying-to-foment-a-wave-of-migration-to-europe-says-un-official


https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/europe-border-frontex-warns-isis-weaponising-refugees-terrorism-radicalisation-a


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Subject: RE: BS: Refugee Clampdown
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 25 Jun 18 - 09:15 AM

Recent terrorist incidents in the UK:

7/7 bombings - 3 of the 4 attackers were British born and lived in Leeds, the fourth was a Jamaican immigrant. All were British citizens

2007 letter bombs - Miles Cooper was from Cambridge

2013 anti Islam campaign - he was Ukranian, and in the country legally

Lee Rigby killing - one attacker was born in Lambeth to a Christian family, the other was anglo-Nigerian (probably a dial national)

2014 parcel bombs - an offshoot of the IRA, perpetrators unidentified

Murder of Jo Cox - he was from Scotland

2017 Westminster attack - attacker was a convert to Islam born and raised in Kent.

Manchester Arena bombing - attacker was born in Manchester, though his father had indeed been a refugee. He wasn't.

London Bridge attack - one attacker was British and grew up in Britain, one was Italian, and Redouane is about the only person in this list who fits your profile, he was a failed asylum seeker.

Finsbury Park attack - he was from Cardiff


Very, very few of these perpetrators, probably only Redouane, are refugees or asylum seekers of any kind. The vast majority are home grown.


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Subject: RE: BS: Refugee Clampdown
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 25 Jun 18 - 09:16 AM

Or migrants for that matter.


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Subject: RE: BS: Refugee Clampdown
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Jun 18 - 09:26 AM

"The words refugee & migrant are not interchangeable."
You have has my answer Nigel
The fact that you won't respond toit, no
r to anything else I've put up, puts you in the same league as your two mates
I wish I could say I wasn't disappointed
More "refugees = terrorists" that you've just denied saying Iains
As you say
"Stupid boy!"
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Refugee Clampdown
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Jun 18 - 09:36 AM

The majority of the Isil extremists who carried out the November 13 2015 Paris attacks entered Europe while posing as migrants.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/10/02/majority-of-paris-attackers-used-migration-routes-to-enter-europ/
Previous attacks here have been homegrown but the threat from such people is real and recognised.


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Subject: RE: BS: Refugee Clampdown
From: Iains
Date: 25 Jun 18 - 09:50 AM

Jim when you take heed and understand the counter arguments presented, and respond in a measured fashion, then you will have a sensible dialogue. If you act like a fool, it is little wonder that you will be treated as a fool. How many times does a fact have to be presented to you before you finally take heed.

The vast majority are home grown. Yes we know that we can read as well.
This merely demonstrates the danger of allowing immigrants into the uk that form ghettos, wander about in ridiculous clothing, and make no attempt to integrate. If they are not prepared to follow the British way of life, why are they here? Do they seriously expect us to bend to their ways?. We need to exert far tighter control over Islamic schools in the UK

In all of the Middle East it is expected that foreigners maintain a low profile and do nothing to attract controversy. Perhaps we should insist on the same!

What sort of facile argument is it to draw attention to home grown terrorists while ignoring others slipping past our border controls.
A terrorist is a terrorist is a terrorist. Are the ones wearing union jacks somehow more important? or are you merely highlighting the fact they refuse to assimilate or integrate? Both sorts need exterminating.


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Subject: RE: BS: Refugee Clampdown
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 25 Jun 18 - 10:26 AM

Which just highlights the fact that the only effective defence against terrorism is intelligence. And indeed that intelligence should target potential terrorists from a variety of backgrounds. Not just ones who wear what you deem to be ridiculous clothing.

And I will not take lectures from a defender of Tommy Robinson on the "British way of life". Because his way of life is not mine.


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Subject: RE: BS: Refugee Clampdown
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Jun 18 - 10:35 AM

NOTHING
NEW
UNDER
THE SUN

You are one of a long line Iains
I assume you are speaking for just your trio of right-wing extremistrs when you say "treated like a fool"
It would worry me if you and your two friends considered me otherwise

Try answering the points instead of saying one thing and then contradicting yourself in the next posting
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Refugee Clampdown
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 25 Jun 18 - 11:58 AM

Wikipedia is not absolutely the most reliable of sources, although I would take it over the Telegraph any day. And it says about the perpetrators of the Paris attacks:

"Fabien Clain released an audio recording the day before the attacks in which he personally claimed responsibility for the attacks. Clain is known to intelligence services as a veteran jihadist belonging to ISIL, and of French nationality."

and:

"Most of the Paris attackers were French and Belgian citizens who crossed borders without difficulty, albeit registered as terrorism suspects. Two other attackers were Iraqi. According to the French prime minister, Manuel Valls, several of the perpetrators had exploited Europe's immigration crisis to enter the continent undetected. At least some, including the alleged leader Abdelhamid Abaaoud, had visited Syria and returned radicalised. Jean-Charles Brisard, a French expert on terrorism, called this a change of paradigm, in that returning European citizens were themselves the attackers."

So the majority were domestic terrorists who had traveled overseas. If they had used the same methods as immigrants to re-enter France, they were not immigrants themselves and it as much the crackdown on immigration as anything else which allowed them to reenter undetected.


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Subject: RE: BS: Refugee Clampdown
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Jun 18 - 12:15 PM

Tourism poses a far greater threat of terrorism that do refugees
maybe we should stat interning them!!!
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Refugee Clampdown
From: Iains
Date: 25 Jun 18 - 01:38 PM

And I will not take lectures from a defender of Tommy Robinson on the "British way of life". Because his way of life is not mine.

I see we now have 2 fools cluttering up an important thread.

You are being somewhat disingenuous by trying to muddy the waters by pretending they were nationals and not middle eastern in origin. Why try to hide the fact they were all suicidal maniacs masquerading as Islamic fundamentalists? Does the truth about then offend your libtard huggy huggy sensibilities? Or do expect us to share your tunnel vision of who these people are? There have been 65 terrorist attacks in Europe since 2014 resulting in 351 deaths. Every single one carried out by Islamic terrorists affiliated to an alphabet soup of affiliations.
I really could not care less what passport they claim to have. I would much prefer to see them in body bags.


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Subject: RE: BS: Refugee Clampdown
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 25 Jun 18 - 02:18 PM

"Every single one carried out by Islamic terrorists affiliated to an alphabet soup of affiliations."

Thomas Mair an Islamic Terrorist? Darren Osborne?


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Subject: RE: BS: Refugee Clampdown
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 25 Jun 18 - 02:28 PM

Anders Breivik???


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Subject: RE: BS: Refugee Clampdown
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Jun 18 - 02:28 PM

"I see we now have 2 fools cluttering up an important thread."
I make it three -the other two appear to have retired injured.
You said you were not accusing refugees of being terrorists
"Refugee - terrorist. only in your midget brain jimmy."
Now you have made it a crusade to prove they are
Make up your mind - shouldn't take too long
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Refugee Clampdown
From: Iains
Date: 25 Jun 18 - 02:34 PM

With the number od wannabe independance movements in the United States of Europe it is hardly surprising other terrorist movements exist and the rampage of a lone wolk can never be eradicated.

HOWEVER:
In 2016, a total of 142 failed, foiled and completed attacks were reported by eight EU Member States. More than half (76) of them were reported by the United Kingdom. France reported 23 attacks, Italy 17, Spain 10, Greece 6, Germany 5, Belgium 4 and the Netherlands 1 attack. 142 victims died in terrorist attacks, and 379 were injured in the EU. Although there was a large number of terrorist attacks not connected with jihadism, the latter accounts for the most serious forms of terrorist activity as nearly all reported fatalities and most of the casualties were the result of jihadist terrorist attacks. Explosives were used in 40% of the attacks and women and young adults, and even children, are playing increasingly operational roles in committing terrorist activities independently in the EU. Most arrests were related to jihadist terrorism, for which the number rose for the third consecutive year. Also, the European Counter Terrorism Centre at Europol supported 127 counter terrorism investigations in 2016, which shows a clear indication of the growing range of jihadist activity.


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Subject: RE: BS: Refugee Clampdown
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Jun 18 - 02:54 PM

Nowhere does your Europol report mention refugees being in any way linked to these attacks - if they had been it would have been an issue since all these countries have a refugee population

It's utterly fascination how you have been drawn out of your closet on this one
You started off with "no room" and how they effect the economy - now you've moved on to THE FULL TOMMY

Even your mates seem to have deserted you - too near the knuckle for even them - a little like GOOD OL' BOY ENOCH when his buddies kicked him into touch
This is straightforward ranting racism
Unbelievable!!
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Refugee Clampdown
From: Kenny B (inactive)
Date: 25 Jun 18 - 03:23 PM

Jim 2 points
! Who do you consider to be Iains 2 mates can you name them and justify your reasons ?

2 Your comment "This is straightforward ranting racism" can you justify that comment


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Subject: RE: BS: Refugee Clampdown
From: robomatic
Date: 25 Jun 18 - 03:40 PM

Interesting Jim that you count the descendants of displaced Arabs from the results of several wars that Israel did not start as 'refugees'.

They are descended from refugees of battles and wars who were refused resettlement into the nations which started the very wars that led to the refugees!

But you ignore the displaced Jews from north Africa, Arabia, and Europe who found homes in Israel. An equivalent number to the displaced Arabs.

Acknowledging a 'right of return' on the part of your definition of 'Palestinians' would lead to the end of Israel and the displacement of millions of its citizens who are multi-ethnic, democratic, and quite liberal. You totally ignore this in your posts, because you want your partisan position to be 'assumed' as base facts. Quel Trump!

You have established a thread which is dishonest by your own self-righteous riding of your hobby horse.


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Subject: RE: BS: Refugee Clampdown
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 25 Jun 18 - 04:17 PM

In my view its the third paragraph of Iains's post of 25 June 18 - 01:38 PM. If that had been said about adherents to a different middle eastern religion, there would have been outrage.


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Subject: RE: BS: Refugee Clampdown
From: Iains
Date: 25 Jun 18 - 04:52 PM

Jimmy you spend so much time up your own arse you have nothing left but shit between your ears.What a pathetic little creature you are, to label anyone a racist for pointing out inescapable facts.
Now as I was sayingto the dead parrote

We have a multitude of problems coming together in Europe.

We have returning jihadists from places such as Iraq, Syria, and Libya. We have some trying to persuade us they are nationals of such countries as France, Belgium and the UK because they happen to possess the requisite passports.
It is beyond dispute that the vast majority of fatalities result from terrorist activity carried out by demented jihadists.
It is a fact that the security within the Schengen zone has been modified as a result of ongoing terrorist activity and free movement no longer automatic.
It is a fact that the level of terrorist activity dictates that migrants are subjected to a more thorough screening process


https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/09546559608427356

The literal use of the phrase "Islamic terrorism" is disputed. Such use in Western political speech has variously been called "counter-productive", "highly politicized, intellectually contestable" and "damaging to community relations".

However, others have referred to the refusal to use the term as an act of "self-deception", "full-blown censorship" and "intellectual dishonesty


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Subject: RE: BS: Refugee Clampdown
From: Iains
Date: 25 Jun 18 - 05:02 PM

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_fundamentalism

I prefer not to use wiki, but I find nothing in the link I totally reject


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Subject: RE: BS: Refugee Clampdown
From: bobad
Date: 25 Jun 18 - 05:47 PM

Further to your post, robomatic, here are some inconvenient facts that are conveniently ignored by those who selectively censure Israel for the refugees created by a war that was waged against it:


Over the years, almost 5,000 Arab landowners have sued for the land owned by them. Settlements have been awarded in one of three methods:

Return of the land itself, if possible; granting of a deed of ownership to an equivalent parcel of land, as determined by an objective property assessor and agreeable to the plaintiff, or monetary compensation, again according to a determination by an objective property assessor and accepted by the plaintiff.

This is on the public record, and has been for decades.

Since the Arabs of Palestine in 1948 legally owned a grand total of 8% of the Mandate land area, including in the West Bank and Gaza, it’s safe to assume that there aren’t many more legitimate claims that can be supported by the land registry records from the British Mandate.

The vast majority of land in the mandate was state land, which could not be bought, only leased, and the tenant had no claim of ownership on such land.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

At the Lausanne conference held in 1949, in the immediate aftermath of the 1947-1949 war that led to the creation of the refugee problem, Israel offered to take back 100,000 refugees, and pay the ones who were not allowed back for their abandoned properties- in exchange for a complete and final resolution of the conflict.

As has been their modus operandi from the beginning of the conflict the Arabs said no to this offer.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Under Israeli law any Arab who can show that they owned private property that was lost in any of the wars with Israel gets it back or fair market compensation.

Israeli courts tend to be pretty supportive and quite a bit of land has been returned or paid for this way.


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Subject: RE: BS: Refugee Clampdown
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Jun 18 - 03:13 AM

"Who do you consider to be Iains 2 mates can you name them and justify your reasons ?"
Sorry - I don't intend to make this a personal slanging match - my comment was a flippant response to Iain's inevitable insulting behaviour
He has now mnaged to drag an old Islamophobic Troll from under his bridges and, with his help, is attempting to turn this into a "I hate all Muslims" thread
Ironically, the Troll is someone who claims to support a people who have undergone centuries - millennia even - of exactly the same hatred and persecution he would now inflict on another mass of humanity.
No taker, as far as I'm concerned - I hope nobody else gets involved in this filth
This is not about "Jihadists" - it is about ordinary, largely deprived and extremely poor people fleeing wars we have helped start

Iains was quite adamant when he said that he was not attempting to claim that "refugees = terrorists.

Date: 25 Jun 18 - 08:10 AM
"Refugee - terrorist. only in your midget brain jimmy.


Now he is busting a gut to prove that - guess what - yep, refugees=terrorists
His posting appear not to have acquired the benefit of consistency, let alone intelligence and compassion.

I started this thread - I would rather see it closed than have it turned into a platform for racist intolerance and hatred of the kind being pushed by scum like Tommy Robinson
There's enough sickness and hatred in this world, as far as I'm concerned

THIS IS THE TYPE OF ARGUMENT WE NEED TO ADDRESS
AND THIS
THIS TOO
AND OVER-VIEWS LIKE THIS

The refugee crisis, in my opinion, is the effect of big business protecting its interests and the mass poverty and insecurity this is creating
Garbage like Islamophobia (as displayed here) is diversionary crap
Please don't let its exponents make it their hate platform
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Refugee Clampdown
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Jun 18 - 03:51 AM

Is it my imagination but, could the introduction and taking up of "Israel" on this thread possibly be a deliberate ploy to preventing us from discussing refugees by getting us closed down
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Refugee Clampdown
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 26 Jun 18 - 04:02 AM

This was the post that inserted Israel & the Jews into the conversation:
From: Jim Carroll - PM
Date: 25 Jun 18 - 06:42 AM

"Society can only function if rules are adhered to. "
A NICE BLAST FROM THE PAST IAINS
Jim Carroll


And Jim suggests the thread should be closed because of it.

For once, I agree with Jim. The thread should be closed


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Subject: RE: BS: Refugee Clampdown
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Jun 18 - 04:34 AM

"And Jim suggests the thread should be closed because of it."
No
I suggest that it is not allowed to become an Islamophobic hate-rant
Nigel
THere is no need to close the thread if people stick to the subject
"This was the post that inserted Israel & the Jews into the conversation:"
It introduced neither - my link was about the arrelles between how Jews were treated and how today's refugees are being treated
Noy Jews and Israel - just human-beings , refugees
If people are happy to discuss refugees without making it a display of xenphobia, please do - if not - walk away
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Refugee Clampdown
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Jun 18 - 05:01 AM

Nigel
There is plenty on refugees to discuss here, making it necessary to close this thread
So fat, your only input has been to imply that refugees are not what they seem to be
Why not either respond to what has been put up or put alternatives of your own up for discussion?
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Refugee Clampdown
From: Kenny B (inactive)
Date: 26 Jun 18 - 05:02 AM

This was taken from todays post to my facebook account by a friend and former workmate some people on here would call the post racist shame on them

"This is nothing to do with compassion - I am probably one of THE most compassionate people you could ever hope to meet. I wouldn't normally mention anything of what I've done to help others - but - rather than allow others to assume I am all self and no care. I'll give you an example from Cyprus - 1974.
For general information - my very best friends don't know this, in fact none of my family know this (except my husband). I was newly married (March 1974) - my husband had been whisked away to - I didn't even know where, the phone lines were down and we had no contact with anyone at home. We were posted there in May 1974 - not long before the war broke out. (Greek Cypriots - Turkish Cypriots) Makarios had been abducted and (at that time) thought to have been assassinated).
We had been taken away from our own army quarters and allocated a place in some of the officer's "batman's" quarters. We didn't know each other. I was the only army wife among RAF wives. However, we made the best of it and worked together. I volunteered in the refugee camp - had to walk the best part of two miles(downhill) to get there every day - stayed for at least six hours in the searing heat, helped make the meals for them, nursed mother-less-babies. Helped old and confused people who had lost all they possessed, played with the children, fed them, tried to comfort them by touch because they couldn't speak English and I couldn't speak their native tongue.
There were at least five days that I can actually recall, when I walked back those two miles home (UPHILL) in my bare feet, because I'd given my shoes away, to someone who had even less than me, arriving back with blisters - I did that EVERY day for about four weeks until all the women and children of British Forces Personnel were airlifted out for their own safety.
We had been married for less than five months. I left Cyprus on 15th August 1974 and I didn't see my husband again until 31st December 1974. I have spent most of my life giving and sharing what I have. I have given MORE than I have - to the point of bankruptcy. I am disgusted that our ex military personnel are living on the street. These ex soldiers deserve MUCH better than they are receiving and we are not going to be able to DO that unless we sort out the immigration.
THIS is COMMON sense.
I remember the stench of that refugee camp, the crying children, the mothers searching for their children, old women (in their seventies and eighties) trying to hold their empty, flat breasts to the mouths of the youngest of babies, who were literally starving when they arrived - having either lost their mothers or their mothers had yet to be found. It was hard work, but it was the most rewarding thing I have ever done in my life - and yes - had I the health, strength and stamina today, that I had then, I'd do it all again.
There is THE greatest possibility of these kinds of camps being required in the UK unless we get the immigration under control. There is absolutely and definitely MORE chance of that happening than returning to Glasgow Slums and Nazi-type gas chambers.
Please, please do not mistake my preferences for lack of compassion. I have BEEN there. I have DONE that. I have SEEN that. It's not about allowing this immigration to continue - it's about being ABLE to give these refugees some kind of decent life, not just an existence. We are not a rich nation, by any means, we owe more than we have.
Who's going to be the first person to sell their home to provide what is needed for ONE refugee? If you are willing to do that - and I mean give your very last penny - then feel free to tell me I don't know what compassion is. I have already done that. However, my next pennies will be given to our ex-servicemen, because those are the ones who need it."


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Subject: RE: BS: Refugee Clampdown
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 26 Jun 18 - 05:17 AM

Ex-servicemen received a salary and receive a pension, for a job that they signed up for. The refugees have nothing. My sympathy and my charity is reserved for them. And no, camps like that are not required. If we do get them it will be because of political decisons.


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Subject: RE: BS: Refugee Clampdown
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Jun 18 - 05:23 AM

I go along with one point in the letter
"it's about being ABLE to give these refugees some kind of decent life, not just an existence."
I totally disagree with the following point
"We are not a rich nation, by any means"
Compared to most of these people we are as rich as Croesus
It fails to mention - as have few here, the causes of refugeeism
If we are part of causing the problem then it is our responsibility to be part of its cure
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Refugee Clampdown
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 26 Jun 18 - 05:53 AM

If we are part of causing the problem then it is our responsibility to be part of its cure
That's that niggling little word 'if' again. A small word with a big meaning.

For many of these immigrants we are not part of the cause.
That doesn't prevent us providing humanitarian aid, whether we are a part of the cause or not.


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Subject: RE: BS: Refugee Clampdown
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 26 Jun 18 - 06:10 AM

Good point Jim, yes we are a very, very rich nation, compared with most. Determined to make ourselves poorer, yes, but there is a long way to go.


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Subject: RE: BS: Refugee Clampdown
From: Iains
Date: 26 Jun 18 - 07:13 AM

"Ex-servicemen received a salary and receive a pension, for a job that they signed up for. The refugees have nothing. My sympathy and my charity is reserved for them."

Your way of life is built upon the sacrifice of the armed services.
Yes we pay them and give them a pension, but for the ordinary squaddie we do little to prepare him for civilian life, and next to nothing to combat the psychological damage suffered while serving in your name.

I find your attitude both extremely selfish and inhumane.


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Subject: RE: BS: Refugee Clampdown
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 26 Jun 18 - 08:13 AM

Their way of life is paid for my my taxes. And any whose sacrifices did safeguard my way of life would be well into their 90s by now


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Subject: RE: BS: Refugee Clampdown
From: Senoufou
Date: 26 Jun 18 - 08:19 AM

I've just read that Algeria has been forcing refugees at gunpoint into lorries, then taking them far into the Sahara and abandoning them there with no food or water. (Temperature is around 48 degrees)
Pregnant women, children forced to walk until they drop. Many got completely lost and wandered in the wrong direction. Thirteen THOUSAND of them. Imagine their suffering... most died.

Words cannot express how I feel about this.


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Subject: RE: BS: Refugee Clampdown
From: Jack Campin
Date: 26 Jun 18 - 09:02 AM

That strategy is what Turkey did to the Armenians in 1915 and what the US has been doing to Mexicans for years (long before Trump).

I think Fintan O'Toole has got it right about the current American strategy:

https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/fintan-o-toole-trial-runs-for-fascism-are-in-full-flow-1.3543375


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Subject: RE: BS: Refugee Clampdown
From: Jack Campin
Date: 26 Jun 18 - 09:29 AM

It's a bit telling when a right-wing ideologue can only find backup from the Washington Times, isn't it?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Washington_Times


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Subject: RE: BS: Refugee Clampdown
From: Senoufou
Date: 26 Jun 18 - 09:31 AM

Goodness Jack, every word of that rings true! Nibbling away at our innate morality and compassion by trialling mini-abuses, and demonising a group to encourage us all to hate.
Is there any limit to this evil? Hitler would be so proud...


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Subject: RE: BS: Refugee Clampdown
From: Kenny B (inactive)
Date: 26 Jun 18 - 09:35 AM

Jim you said
"It fails to mention - as have few here, the causes of refugeeism
If we are part of causing the problem then it is our responsibility to be part of its cure"


If you wish personally to accept the sins of our forefathers so be it …. but what are YOU doing about it in reparation, apart from repeating it to the small number who read Mudcat BS.?
I would refer you to my favorite artist GOYA for inspiration


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Subject: RE: BS: Refugee Clampdown
From: bobad
Date: 26 Jun 18 - 10:01 AM

"It fails to mention - as have few here, the causes of refugeeism
If we are part of causing the problem then it is our responsibility to be part of its cure"


Kind of like the Arab countries that caused the refugee problem in the Middle East, eh.


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Subject: RE: BS: Refugee Clampdown
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Jun 18 - 11:06 AM

"If you wish personally to accept the sins of our forefathers so be it "
None of us have any control over what our Government does on or behalf beyond not voting for them, and even then, there is no guarantee that the next lot will be any better
Britain has just sold 48 fighter planes to Saudi Arabia - it is inevitable that they will be used on the famine stricken people of Yemen
At present UNCR reports that there are 22.2 million people in need, 2014,026 internally displaced people 280,629 refugees and asylum seekers from war and famine
By propping up such regimes and selling them weapons makes us up to our uxters in their problems.
"That's that niggling little word 'if' again. A small word with a big meaning".
No "if" about it Nigel - the overwhelming conflicts that have caused the refugee crisis are traceable back to oil
You have the statistics and the maps - if you disagree with them, produce your own facts.

This goes for Iain's mythical claim about the role of our army
"Your way of life is built upon the sacrifice of the armed services."
Britain hasn't fought a defensive war since 1945
- all conflicts since have been about maintaining political and financial control abroad
We "owe out way of life" to the fact that for centuries we were able to plunder and enslave weaker and less developed countries for our own interests
That exploitation continues by proxy - now we fill our shops with goods produced in semi-feudal conditions

Even if none of this were true, we would have a moral obligation to assist less fortunate countries - that was the Britain I was born to and lived in most of my life
I have no religion, but Britain struts its stuff as a Christian country - is Christianity about turning away those in need?
I find so much of this unbelievably inhuman - if this is what Britain has become, I'm glad to be out of it.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Refugee Clampdown
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Jun 18 - 11:14 AM

Kenny B
Not our "forefathers", by the way "It's all happening now" as one of McColl's lesser-known songs said.
JUST ONE SMALL EXAMPLE
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Refugee Clampdown
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 26 Jun 18 - 11:33 AM

No "if" about it Nigel - the overwhelming conflicts that have caused the refugee crisis are traceable back to oil
That doesn't mean they are traceable back to UK.

Even if none of this were true, we would have a moral obligation to assist less fortunate countries - that was the Britain I was born to and lived in most of my life

Funny, I just said that, maybe you missed it because it doesn't fit in with your world-view:

For many of these immigrants we are not part of the cause.
That doesn't prevent us providing humanitarian aid, whether we are a part of the cause or not.


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Subject: RE: BS: Refugee Clampdown
From: Iains
Date: 26 Jun 18 - 11:35 AM

The refugee/illegal immigrant/asylum seeker, and yes a minority of terrorists likely hidden among them are all a problem of the here and now. It bears no relationship to the events of 80 odd years ago the causes are more complex and the migrants fit no single pigeonhole.
It is more useful to look at the causes of the migration rather than put labels on those moving.
1)Regime change, civil war,persecution, genocide
2)Climate change. Semi desert areas such as the Sahel have always been vulnerable to slight shifts in climate. Plant growth is already challenged and has little resilience. Global warming, constant war, political instability, burgeoning population only leads to unhappy outcomes.
3)population growth
4)Western political meddling, raw material extraction.
5)Economic migrants this also includes millions from Eastern Europe moving entirely legally to the west in search of a better life.


You may like to separate terrorism from the refugee problem but as in many cases they originate from the same countries they are both intricately linked. We also have european jihadis further complicating and compounding the problem. The presence of potential terrorists among any group of immigrants inevitably requires higher levels of security to deal with them. You may not like the idea, or even refuse to accept the reality, but the alternatives are potentially far more damaging
To demonstrate this point let us consider Syria. It is fighting a war for it’s survival. The Syrian defence forces are fighting a rag tag and bobtail soup of insurgents, many aided and abetted illegally by western forces. This has resulted in 2016, from an estimated pre-war population of 22 million, the United Nations (UN) identified 13.5 million Syrians requiring humanitarian assistance, of which more than 6 million are internally displaced within Syria, and around 5 million are refugees outside of Syria.

Another illustration is that of France in the
sahel and the increasing presence of US bases in the region.

Neatly forgotten is that Syria was in the grip of reputedly the worst
drought in 900 years before the insurrection broke out The drought caused 75 percent of Syria's farms to fail and 85 percent of livestock to die between 2006 and 2011, according to the United Nations. The collapse in crop yields forced as many as 1.5 million Syrians to migrate to urban centers, like Homs and Damascus.
The drought had displaced Syrians long before the conflict began," said Francesco Femia, president of the Center for Climate Security. "And what is frightening is that analysts who study the region completely missed it."

As a total aside: In this way the Syrian civil war and the hundreds of thousands of displaced, who are seeking refuge in Turkey and Europe, could be seen as a foreshadowing of a much more alarming humanitarian situation should nation's fail to keep global temperature rise under control.
The Pentagon has long identified climate change as a "threat magnifier," a factor that can aggravate already existing political fault lines. And the G7 issued a report in June warning that climate change "will aggravate already fragile situations and may contribute to social upheaval and even violent conflict."

An interesting article in blacklisted news further illustrates the complexity of the situation
https://www.blacklistednews.com/article/66685/ben-rhodes-admits-obama-armed-jihadists-in-syria-in-bombshell.html
Of who did what to whom and an even more interesting article from Russia today illustrates the fallout in Europe
https://www.rt.com/op-ed/430820-eu-migration-crisis-merkel/

I am afraid one paragraph submissions on the subject of refugees cannot even begin to scratch the surface. It is complex in terms of origin, outcomes and potential solutions. Of course there are those will look at the source of the links and make no attempt to verify the content, content in their smug satisfaction that they already know the reasons.


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Subject: RE: BS: Refugee Clampdown
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Jun 18 - 12:25 PM

"None of that changes in any way our part in the present situation Iains
For instance, as you say, the drought in Syria took place between 2006 and 2011.
The country was impoverished anyway and repression by its regime had been reported fully by Amnesty
At the end of the drought the Syrian People had had enough and began to demand changes - they became part of The Arab Spring protests.
The demonstrations were brutally repressed by Assad using riot control equipment, armoured cars, tear gas all sold to him by Britain
When his snipers randomly started taking out civilians on the streets of Homs, it is possible that some of them may have trained using ammunition sold to him by Britain
Britan was internationally criticised for selling chemicals capable of being used in the manufacture of weapons   
THIS IS A TIMELINE of Syria's use of chemical weapons from the Arms Control Council

You can dodge and dive and point fingers at anybody you choose, but Britain and the U.S. are up to their bloody elbows in the bloodbath that is Syria

Inaction on the part of the leaders of the wealthy nations gave rise to Isis
WE owe the world big time to help sort it out

And still you refuse to acknowlede the human toll that all this is taking
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Refugee Clampdown
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Jun 18 - 12:45 PM

Incidentally
I think you sould read your "even more interesting article from Russia Today" carefully - everybody should
It lambasts all countries, particularly Europe, for doing the wrong things or nothing to ease the refugee problem
It lambasts the populist politics that have opposed supporting the refugees and scapegoated immigrants - the populism that elected the Trump administration and brought about the Brexit vote - both of which you have expressed support for.

Trump is one of the main players in the refugee crisis - America's inhuman treatment of refugees started this argument and Trump's wall is likely to add to that particular obscenity
Brexit might well create a mini-crisis for Britain if the position of the 1.2 million Brits now living and working in Europe is undermined by a 'no deal'
It was estimated in 2015 that 30,000 of those were drawing unemployment benefit
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Refugee Clampdown
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 26 Jun 18 - 01:27 PM

Jim,
, it is possible that some of them may have trained using ammunition sold to him by Britain

No, because we do not supply the ammunition used by their Russian weapons.

Britan was internationally criticised for selling chemicals capable of being used in the manufacture of weapons

I do not remember that Jim. What international criticism?


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Subject: RE: BS: Refugee Clampdown
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Jun 18 - 02:38 PM

"No, because we do not supply the ammunition used by their Russian weapons."
We've been through this interminably
You have no idea what kind of ammunition was sold - neither do I
Your original claim was "all you could come up with is a few sniper rifles" - you denied any ammunition was sold until I produced a government record of the shipment
No details - just a record that sniper ammunition was sold

I seem to remember that you argued it was ok to sell him riot control equipment (I'll dig it out if you like)

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/syria/10303424/Britain-issued-five-further-chemical-export-licences-to-Syria.html
(won't blue clickie)

NERVE GAS

SOLE SUPPLIER OF THREE CHEMICALS

It really is time you and yours stopped appeasing out appalling record of arms sales to monsters like Assad and the Saudis
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Refugee Clampdown
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 27 Jun 18 - 04:14 AM

You have no idea what kind of ammunition was sold - neither do I

We do not make ammunition for Russian weapons.

We sold legal chemicals used to make toothpaste and it was all accounted for.

As you say, "We've been through this interminably."

Drop your sill and ancient false claims and move on.


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Subject: RE: BS: Refugee Clampdown
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 27 Jun 18 - 04:20 AM

Jim, you are falling for it again. Get back on the wagon! :-)


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Subject: RE: BS: Refugee Clampdown
From: Kenny B (inactive)
Date: 27 Jun 18 - 04:38 AM

Dave
I didn't know Jim was "on the Wagon" but your comment explains what I was convinced was the phases of the moon …. thanks for the info


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Subject: RE: BS: Refugee Clampdown
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Jun 18 - 04:58 AM

"Jim, you are falling for it again. Get back on the wagon"
Not really Dave
AS Keith stupid denial of reported facts (even from the Tory Telegraph) has just amply demonstrated - it was a perfect opportunity to underline that the British establishment would have to round up every Muslim in Britain and deport them before they uttered a word of criticism against them and, even then, it would probably be that they are not doing it fast enough :-)
Sycophants all

"I was convinced was the phases of the moon "
Probably explains why you never reply with information of your own Kenny!

BRITISH ARMS IN THE HANDS OF ISIS

Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Refugee Clampdown
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 27 Jun 18 - 05:45 AM

"Keith's "stupid denials" can all be substantiated.

Teribus provided the hard evidence and his posts are easily found.


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Subject: RE: BS: Refugee Clampdown
From: Kenny B (inactive)
Date: 27 Jun 18 - 05:53 AM

I do give info but it is cherrypicked and taken out of context mostly by you to introduce your favourite topics as has happened in this thread
If you have a drink problem share it with us …. "a problem shared is a problem halved" is the appropriate adage.


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Subject: RE: BS: Refugee Clampdown
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 27 Jun 18 - 06:05 AM

It's not a drink problem, Kenny, as I am sure Jim will tell you. It is a commitment to give up trying to discus things reasonably with people who are just here to argue, fight, and twist peoples words.

Apologies to Jim if I gave the wrong impression.


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Subject: RE: BS: Refugee Clampdown
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Jun 18 - 06:32 AM

"If you have a drink problem share it with us "
I have the same "drink" problem as does everybody in rural Ireland - having to walk the miles home because of the drinking laws
I think that as that stands, most of us are beyond help with that one

As far as Keith's asinine denials and claims of an expelled member are concerned - I would appreciate a response to both the morality and the effect Britain's indiscriminate sales of arms is having on the refugee crisis
Surely I am mistaken in my growing impression that nobody cares?
Nah - couldn't be!!!]
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Refugee Clampdown
From: Kenny B (inactive)
Date: 27 Jun 18 - 06:34 AM

DTG " It is a commitment to give up trying to discus things reasonably with people who are just here to argue, fight, and twist peoples words."

I take it you are joking   "Coals to Newcastle "?


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Subject: RE: BS: Refugee Clampdown
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 27 Jun 18 - 06:35 AM

Kenny - No. Some people do it occasionally. Others make it an art form :-)


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Subject: RE: BS: Refugee Clampdown
From: Iains
Date: 27 Jun 18 - 06:45 AM

The last link mentioned omits to add that it was a claim by amnesty.
Another organisation like the white helmets that is not all it claims to be.
https://www.ngo-monitor.org/reports/breaking_its_own_rules_amnesty_s_gov_t_funding_and_researcher_bias/

All is not what it seems when you peer down the rabbit hole.
Al quaeda the bastard child of the CIA is still causing havoc and presently recruiting ex ISIS members.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/1999/jan/17/yemen.islam
It would seem the CIA and Pentagon sometimes work together, other times in opposition, but whatever way they play the end result is more killing, more refugees and more towns and cities bombed back into the stone age.(That was one of the few pentagon promises made that cannot be faulted)


http://www.theweek.co.uk/90460/where-does-islamic-state-get-its-weapons


and a very intriguing article, esp. at the end.
https://www.wired.com/story/terror-industrial-complex-isis-munitions-supply-chain/

The entire story is by no means as simple as it is made out to be.
Everyone involved is a chameleon.

Quoting any one source and relying upon it's content implicitly can lead down blind allyways and lead to totally wrong conclusions.
Getting the big picture is a challenge, but without having a vague understanding of the various ins and outs, comment becomes meaningless if it is in terms of absolutes. The beast does not exist.


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Subject: RE: BS: Refugee Clampdown
From: Jack Campin
Date: 27 Jun 18 - 06:59 AM

NGO Monitor is an Israeli state propaganda institution. Zero credibility.


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Subject: RE: BS: Refugee Clampdown
From: Iains
Date: 27 Jun 18 - 07:31 AM

So you deny In its Statute, Amnesty International fosters an image that “impartiality and independence” are core tenets of its agenda. Amnesty presents itself as unbiased, and independent of governments and their interests, and its statements are widely accepted because the media and diplomats consider the NGO as upholding the universal principles of human rights.

This image, however, is misleading. Contrary to what the NGO implies on its website and in other PR materials, Amnesty International and its local branches do in fact accept government funding.

Or do you deny the content below?
https://www.globalpolicy.org/component/content/article/176/31407.html


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Subject: RE: BS: Refugee Clampdown
From: Iains
Date: 27 Jun 18 - 07:38 AM

Amnesty again!
https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/editorial/political-donations-amnesty-s-defiance-1.3328924

Oh whar a twisted web we weave.......


https://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/george-soros-s-amnesty-donation-was-not-for-political-purposes-1.3335146

http://dnipress.com/en/posts/who-is-behind-amnesty-international/

No smoke without fire, I say!


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Subject: RE: BS: Refugee Clampdown
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Jun 18 - 07:55 AM

Iiains

NGO Monitor (Non-governmental Organization Monitor) is a non-governmental organization based in Jerusalem, which analyzes and reports on the output of the international NGO community from a pro-Israel perspective.[1] It has been characterized as being pro-Israel[4][5] and as right-wing.[6] NGO Monitor says in its mission statement that it was founded "to promote accountability, and advance a vigorous discussion on the reports and activities of humanitarian NGOs in the framework of the Arab–Israeli conflict.""

Donipress is a Ukrainian propaganda publication aimesd at “exposing fake news”
Hardly people you would discuss bias with

Attempting to denigrate the findings of w world-wide respected Human Rights organisation is somewhat ludicrous#
Are you 'avin a larf!!
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Refugee Clampdown
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 27 Jun 18 - 08:04 AM

Jim,
Britain's indiscriminate sales of arms

Britain does not sell arms indiscriminately. It has the tightest restrictions of any nation.
All the world's ills can not be blamed on us.


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Subject: RE: BS: Refugee Clampdown
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Jun 18 - 08:16 AM

If it does not sell arms indiscriminately it is deliberately selling them to terrorist states who are using them to slaughter civilians - is that what you are saying?

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/uk-arms-deals-sales-countries-human-rights-abusers-bahrain-saudi-arabia-israel-caat-bae-systems-a7853416.html
(can't blue clickie)

Can you please address your inanities at someone else Keith - you are as tiresome as you ever were
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Refugee Clampdown
From: Iains
Date: 27 Jun 18 - 08:24 AM

I see you are using your usual puerile tricks again, shared by others on this forum. Disparage the source and deny the content. Have you bothered to read the content? you and jack make a fine pair, you should go on the road as a latter day laurel and hardy. Most of what you post is equally comical.


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Subject: RE: BS: Refugee Clampdown
From: Kenny B (inactive)
Date: 27 Jun 18 - 08:28 AM

Jim
Maybe you should have named the thread "Refugee Clampdown / Pandoras Box"


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Subject: RE: BS: Refugee Clampdown
From: Iains
Date: 27 Jun 18 - 08:46 AM

And Sorus getting amnesty into trouble again! Amnesty in defiance of decision to return donation by the Standards in Public Office body.


http://www.thejournal.ie/amnesty-international-george-soros-case-3848523-Feb2018/


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Subject: RE: BS: Refugee Clampdown
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 27 Jun 18 - 08:51 AM

Disparage the source and deny the content. Have you bothered to read the content?
Iains, the question is, why do you read it if it's propaganda and junk? That kills your case right there.


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Subject: RE: BS: Refugee Clampdown
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Jun 18 - 09:24 AM

"Disparage the source and deny the content. "
You have been pointed to the possible motivation of the source Iains - you choose to ignore that
It is you who is disparaging sourcs, in this case, of an internationally admired and supported Human Rights organisation
Without them, we wold be at the mercy of ruthless politicians, avaricious businesses (and the Tommy Robinsons of this world
None of your links in any way deal with the subject in hand - rather they are an exercise in smear tactics

The Soros affair is interesting as it questions whether the 8th amendment referendum was a matter of politics or human rights
The fundamentalists (who were soundly trounced), claimed it to be political and so could not receive financial support from Amnesty
What isn't mentioned is that the same fundamentalists were receiving money and actual help from Trumpites and American fundamentalists politicians
It was a cross-party, non political campaign where people voted according to their conscience not their party preferences
Ti its credit, Amnesty stuck to its guns
No donor to a charity has the right to call the shots on what their money is spent on

I suppose it's a waste of my time asking you how you feel about Britain selling weapons to terrorist states and mass murderers (especially as you support many of our customers in their political aims
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Refugee Clampdown
From: Iains
Date: 27 Jun 18 - 09:55 AM

"I suppose it's a waste of my time asking you how you feel about Britain selling weapons to terrorist states and mass murderers (especially as you support many of our customers in their political aims"

and you wonder why I treat you like a fool!
You have been pointed to the possible motivation of the source Iains - you choose to ignore tha.

I could not care motivates an author, I am only interested in the data presented. I suggest you adopt the same approach. It would save you much of your mindless frothing. As far as I am aware the court decision on the Sorus donation has yet to be decided. Does Sorus donate anything without a political motive?

Amnesty UK accepted a grant of £842,000 (being part of a larger four year award) from the Department for International Development (DFID) This is just one example from the source you disparage. Do you deny it?
I will even make it easy for you and give the audited source.
https://www.amnesty.org/download/documents/32000/fin400072011en.pdf      page 19

Not so squeaky clean and innocent after all. I wonder what strings come attached?


Maybe after your 10 reincarnation you might realise your view of the world is simplistic twaddle, and black merges with white into shades of grey. You are hardly going to get these facts plastered all over the guardian now are you? Would you like me to illustrate a few other points made in those articles that you are so convinced must be fake?


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Subject: RE: BS: Refugee Clampdown
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Jun 18 - 10:20 AM

and you wonder why I treat you like a fool!"
And you wonder why you have the reputation of an evasive bully that you do

You still haven't answered my question

Insult away - it tells us what we need to know (even if we already know it)

I have no idea what you are implying about Amnesty's honesty

The only criticism I can find is from countries with a dodgy human rights record like Isreal

It's a bit ludicrous claing "Disparage the source and deny the content" and dong exactly that
You appear not to be into joined up thinking

"Pandoras Box"
Nah- not into mythological sex!
Enjoying every relaxing minute of it Kenny - I wish cutting the grass and painting the window-frames was as easy as this
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Refugee Clampdown
From: Kenny B (inactive)
Date: 27 Jun 18 - 10:50 AM

Jim
In the wild of County Clare I would have thought you would have had a "coo de grass" ?


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Subject: RE: BS: Refugee Clampdown
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Jun 18 - 11:27 AM

""coo de grass""
With an accent like that, don't you mean Scotland Kenny?


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Subject: RE: BS: Refugee Clampdown
From: Iains
Date: 27 Jun 18 - 12:06 PM

"I have no idea what you are implying about Amnesty's honesty"
A fundamental tenet they claim is to not receive government funding. If this is so, was the £842000 in the link not from government, even though clearly shown in the pdf provided? Pennies from Heaven perhaps!


Like many charities amnesty also works to an agenda and sometimes ideology takes the place of "best practise". Most of what they do is admirable but they also have their less admirable traits.
Rather like the National Trust and RSPCA-mission creep by a minority is turning them into zealots.

Amnesty weasel their way around funding by the following:
No funds are sought or accepted from governments for investigating and campaigning against human rights abuses.

I am afraid they also cannot be entirely trusted.


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Subject: RE: BS: Refugee Clampdown
From: Iains
Date: 27 Jun 18 - 12:12 PM

I lost half my last post. Apologies.

Mission Statement Amnesty
Monitoring abuses of human rights;
Obtaining redress for the victims of human rights abuse;
Relieving need among the victims of human rights abuse (and in particular medical, rehabilitational or
financial assistance);
Research into human rights issues;
Providing technical advice to government and others on human rights matters;
Contributing to the sound administration of human rights law;
Commenting on proposed human rights legislation;
Raising awareness of human rights issues;
Promoting public support for human rights;
Promoting respect for human rights among individuals and corporations;
International advocacy of human rights;
Eliminating infringements of human rights, including without limitation procuring the abolition of torture, extrajudicial execution and disappearance.

When Peter pays the Piper I suspect he also chooses the tune.


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Subject: RE: BS: Refugee Clampdown
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Jun 18 - 12:21 PM

What have they infringes out of those?
Mybe you don't believe pregnancy termination is a Human Right
THEY DO
As coy as ever about selling arms to dictators, I see !!
Your make Keith seems to have done a runner on this one
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Refugee Clampdown
From: Iains
Date: 27 Jun 18 - 12:41 PM

Hmmm! Scratches head in total bafflement.


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Subject: RE: BS: Refugee Clampdown
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Jun 18 - 12:41 PM

Amnesty is openly disputing their right to accept money from the Irish Government for the referendum
"When Peter pays the Piper I suspect he also chooses the tune."
At no time has anybody anywhere suggested that they have used the money corruptly - perhaps, rather than alluding to it, you might show us where the have
If not, your dismissal of Amnesty as a reliable source of information remains an attempt to smear a respectable, reliable organisation with all the humanist tendencies your people lack
Like your responding to Britain's arms sales - I won't hold my breath
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Refugee Clampdown
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Jun 18 - 12:47 PM

"Hmmm! Scratches head in total bafflement."
Why am I not surprised
Seems a permanent state with some people
Put it another way, if Amnesty is corrupt for accepting money for defending women's human rights - where does that leave a political who has recently bunged another political party with terrorist connections £3 billion of the British taxpayers money in order to stay in office?
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Refugee Clampdown
From: Iains
Date: 27 Jun 18 - 01:18 PM

The dubious manoeuverings of the west and especially the CIA put most dictators in power. It can surely come as no surprise that the entire western world flogs them copious amounts of weaponry.
Even that den of iniquity Syria was a CIA ally not too long ago. If wikileaks can be believed The CIA used Syria as an illicit base of operations to torture ghost detainees, as part of a program known as extraordinary rendition. This program was established in the mid-1990s and expanded in the 2000s.

One target of this program, Syrian-born Canadian Maher Arar, was detained in New York and sent to Syria, where he was interrogated and tortured. Arar, a telecommunications engineer who has been a Canadian citizen since 1991, was asked to confess his connections to al-Qaeda and to terrorist training camps in Afghanistan. Arar was held for more than a year; after his release, he sued the U.S. government.


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Subject: RE: BS: Refugee Clampdown
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Jun 18 - 02:50 PM

"This program was established in the mid-1990s and expanded in the 2000s."
Not sure where you are going with this Iains - you seem to be making my point for me.
According to WIKI the US has been up to its elbows in dirty tricks and coups since just after WW2

"CIA activities in Syria since the agency's inception in 1947 have included coup attempts and assassination plots, and in more recent years, extraordinary renditions, a paramilitary strike, and funding and military training of forces opposed to the current government."

Trump with Britain as his poodle is just the latest and by far the worst affront to human rights and democracy
My point exactly
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Refugee Clampdown
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Jun 18 - 02:57 PM

If you read your article through to the end, all Trump has done is to stop supporting the opponents of Assad and left him and Putin to get on with the massacring
Back to square one
You seem to be quoting selectively and not linking your information deliberately to give the impression that its all the fault of those damned "liberals"
Nothing new there
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Refugee Clampdown
From: Iains
Date: 28 Jun 18 - 06:01 AM

all Trump has done is to stop supporting the opponents of Assad and left him and Putin to get on with the massacring

Jim your simplistic way of looking at world events would be regarded as a disgrace in a kindergarten.
What Trump says, and what the CIA and Pentagon do, are totally unconnected events I would suggest.
The solution to all the deaths and migrations is very straightforward. All the US has to do is stop interfering in other countries. For the vast majority of indigenous people life was infinitely better under gaddaffi and Sadam Hussein, and Syria was a peaceful backwater.

Curious that a convoy of white helmets are travelling to Idlib carrying munitions for bombmaking and at the same time the UK has insisted the OPCW be given the authority to name names. False flag/poison gas event coming up?
You seem to have a childlike trust in the entire content presented in media you trust. Time you became a little more discriminating.


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Subject: RE: BS: Refugee Clampdown
From: Iains
Date: 28 Jun 18 - 09:03 AM

Repent ! repent!
"The Bible tells us there is more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over 99 righteous people who have no need to repent.

So perhaps we should rejoice that Tony Blair and Nick Clegg, who in the past resisted all checks on EU immigration into this country, have finally come around to the idea that there should be some.

As deputy prime minister and leader of the Lib Dems in 2014, Clegg said the following: ‘I want to be unequivocal — freedom of movement between EU member states is a good thing. It’s a cornerstone of European integration.’

Yet the same Nick Clegg performed a U-turn this month, without telling us that was what he was doing. He wrote in the Financial Times: ‘The belief that freedom of movement is an untouchable principle cannot go unchallenged.’"

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-5894441/STEPHEN-GLOVER-Blair-Clegg-seen-light-migration-shame-years-late.html


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Subject: RE: BS: Refugee Clampdown
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Jun 18 - 09:48 AM

Your persistent avoidance of the points being made is pathetic blustering and bullying
Your input here is devoid of a shred of humanity - you make victims perpetrators and you attempt to undermine researched information by denigrating organisations that stand between us and ignorance
If you have any real information present it - any moron can just deny facts that don't suit their twisted, inhuman outlook on life
The facts man, the facts, as Jowe Friday used to say - your denials are not convincing and they are too inevitable to be entertaining
Blair was an untried war criminal and a crypto-Tory - one of yours, so he is quite likely not to be totally indifferent to the fate of impoverished people in cages or in overcrowded boats circling countries who refuse them access - just like you
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Refugee Clampdown
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 28 Jun 18 - 10:03 AM

Jim,
No matter what you think of him, Tony Blair was voted in by the supporters of the Labour Party.
Please don't blame us for making him Prime Minister, and all that that entails.
Even having seen him as Prime Minister the Labour Party voted him in twice more.

He is totally yours.


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Subject: RE: BS: Refugee Clampdown
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Jun 18 - 10:07 AM

"He is totally yours."
He most certainly is not - his 'New Labour' non-socialism was Toryism in a velvet glove until the glove slipped off with WMD


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Subject: RE: BS: Refugee Clampdown
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Jun 18 - 10:07 AM

"He is totally yours."
He most certainly is not - his 'New Labour' non-socialism was Toryism in a velvet glove until the glove slipped off with WMD


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Subject: RE: BS: Refugee Clampdown
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Jun 18 - 10:09 AM

Whoops - didn't finish
... hence the name change.
Incidently - there is no such thing as "unchecked immigration" - there never has been
That is a Farage/Tommy Robinson/Enoch Powell myth
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Refugee Clampdown
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 28 Jun 18 - 03:13 PM

Jim:Incidently - there is no such thing as "unchecked immigration" - there never has been
Thank you for that information. It may well be useful in the future. But as no-one else here has used the term I don't see why you even need to mention it.
Of course you may be pre-empting the situation just in case someone decides to discuss it, but if they did it might just be in response to your comment.


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Subject: RE: BS: Refugee Clampdown
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 28 Jun 18 - 03:14 PM

Of course, I have also just used the expression in a quote:

200


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Subject: RE: BS: Refugee Clampdown
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Jun 18 - 03:54 PM

"But as no-one else here has used the term I don't see why you even need to mention it."
From Iain's link - you obviously find it as riveting as I do
All this is pretty much what this paper has been arguing for the past 20 years. It argued it when Blair opened the doors to uncontrolled immigration from the EU in the crassest possible way.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Refugee Clampdown
From: Iains
Date: 29 Jun 18 - 05:09 AM

Uncontrolled does not equal unchecked. The UK has not ever been a part of the Schengen agreement therefore the vast majority of people are checked on arrival. If control is exerted is another story, most times itis not.
One analysis of where this has gone and will go is below
https://www.nationalreview.com/2007/06/european-lessons-stanley-kurtz/

The author does not paint a happy clappy socialist paradise future.

"Laqueur is convinced that Europeans (and their liberal American admirers) have been living in a state of “delusion.” He is ruthless in skewering a series of recent American books touting Europe as the world’s emerging “soft superpower,” a continent destined to lead the world through its exemplary combination of benevolence and justice. The notion that the hard-eyed powers of the world will — on the basis of sheer inspiration — come to emulate European rule of law comes in for polite ridicule by Laqueur."


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Subject: RE: BS: Refugee Clampdown
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Jun 18 - 07:35 AM

"The author does not paint a happy clappy socialist paradise future."
Why should he - he is an extremist right wing American who targets political correctness and believed homosexuality is linked to divorce

His source, Walter Laqueur is an Islamophobe who writes about “National Destiny”, (sort of like in Mein Kampf) in anti-Muslim publications like ‘Standpoint” with-filled hate articles like “Eurabia – Europe’s Long Road to the Mosque’
You are now dredging the very bottom of the rac-hate barrel for your arguments
About time you declared your membership in these groups, I think
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Refugee Clampdown
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Jun 18 - 07:52 AM

Incidentally,
The National Review you linked to is an Ultra-conservative Trumpist publication whose main claim to fame is sponsoring such heroes of democracy as
1964: Barry Goldwater,
1968: Richard Nixon
1976: Ronald Reagan (3 times)
1988: George H.W. Bush (twice)
2000: George W. Bush
2008: Mitt Romney
2016: Ted Cruz   

It leapt further into the spotlight by starting the rumour that Obama was not born in the U.S. and campaigns that Climate Change is shit

The bottom of the bottom of the barrel, I think
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Refugee Clampdown
From: Iains
Date: 29 Jun 18 - 11:16 AM

I suspect he knows a little more about the subject than an ex sparky self exiled in the west of ireland. After all he did not hold all those positions by being an idiot now did he?

"Laqueur's main works deal with European history in the 19th and 20th centuries, especially Russian history and German history, as well as the history of the Middle East. The topics he has written about include the German Youth Movement, Zionism, Israeli history, the cultural history of the Weimar Republic and Russia, Communism, the Holocaust, fascism, and the diplomatic history of the Cold War. His books have been translated into many languages. His comments on international affairs have appeared in many American and European newspapers and periodicals."


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walter_Laqueur

Once again you betray your confusion between source and content. Do you have a similar problem with the Independant or Guardian?


"You are now dredging the very bottom of the rac-hate barrel for your arguments" and you little jimmy are an ignorant fool.


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Subject: RE: BS: Refugee Clampdown
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Jun 18 - 01:14 PM

Thought you didn't trust Wiki (unless it suits you, that is

THERE'S THE LINK TO YOUR ISLAMOPHOBIC SOURCE
"I suspect he knows a little more about the subject than an ex sparky self exiled in the west of ireland"
You cant resist your insulting behaviour any more than you can resist wagging your Little Britain flags
Grow up for Christ's sake
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Refugee Clampdown
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Jun 18 - 01:14 PM

Thought you didn't trust Wiki (unless it suits you, that is

THERE'S THE LINK TO YOUR ISLAMOPHOBIC SOURCE
"I suspect he knows a little more about the subject than an ex sparky self exiled in the west of ireland"
You cant resist your insulting behaviour any more than you can resist wagging your Little Britain flags
Grow up for Christ's sake
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Refugee Clampdown
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Jun 18 - 02:43 PM

Your right wing Historian claims that Multiculturalism has failed - he even entiled a book saying just that
Rather han relying on a right wing racist hate-sheet, here is a serious study of the situation
ETHNIC AND RACIAL STUDIES
AND HERE IS THE SITUATION IN BRITAIN

Fake news all, eh?
Jim Caaarroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Refugee Clampdown
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Jun 18 - 02:43 PM

Your right wing Historian claims that Multiculturalism has failed - he even entiled a book saying just that
Rather han relying on a right wing racist hate-sheet, here is a serious study of the situation
ETHNIC AND RACIAL STUDIES
AND HERE IS THE SITUATION IN BRITAIN

Fake news all, eh?
Jim Caaarroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Refugee Clampdown
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 29 Jun 18 - 04:33 PM

I'm not suggesting that anyone delete Jim's musings, but could a 'mud-elf' at least remove all the duplicate postings from the thread?


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Subject: RE: BS: Refugee Clampdown
From: Kenny B (inactive)
Date: 29 Jun 18 - 06:10 PM

I like the word "musings"


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Subject: RE: BS: Refugee Clampdown
From: pdq
Date: 29 Jun 18 - 06:15 PM

The 24,000 posts by The Carrol County Blue(s) Baby are not 'musings', they amount to abusive behavior.


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Subject: RE: BS: Refugee Clampdown
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Jun 18 - 06:15 PM

Sorry Nigel
I totally agree - I'm having this problem fairly regularly now I post once and it turns up twice
I think it has something to do with my new keyboard speed setting
As Scarlett O'Hara nearly said, "I'll go home, and I'll think of some way to get them back. After all, tomorrow is another day"
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: Refugee Clampdown
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Jun 18 - 06:16 PM

"they amount to abusive behavior."
He said abusively
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Refugee Clampdown
From: Iains
Date: 30 Jun 18 - 12:08 PM

""I suspect he knows a little more about the subject than an ex sparky self exiled in the west of ireland"
wots up? Does the fact that he is regarded as something of a historian and his view of the world is at odds with your own narrow bigoted view cause you a problem?I am afraid you will have to live with the idea. He is as entitled to his opinion as you are to yours. His I find more educated than your own meandering rants.

Here is another article of his:

http://www.spiegel.de/international/europe/interview-with-historian-walter-laqueur-on-the-decline-of-europe-a-912837.html

When you manage to have an article published in a reputable source I may take some serious notice of your ramblings. Until such time I will merely continue to correct your more outrageous frothings.


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Subject: RE: BS: Refugee Clampdown
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 30 Jun 18 - 12:29 PM

China built a wall some thousands of years ago to keep out illegals - oddly enough you don't see any Mexican illegals there!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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Subject: RE: BS: Refugee Clampdown
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Jun 18 - 01:32 PM

"Does the fact that he is regarded as something of a historian and his view of the world is at odds with your own narrow bigoted view cause you a problem"
No - he offers an opinion and he's an Islamophobe
I know that's where to take opinions from - not me bro
You can put up as many articles as you wish - his pedigree is his pedigree
You have been given the pedigree of your "respectable source" - the extremist right
"Fake information" maybe
Keith wore out the practice of dredging the net to find opinions that coincide with his own
These are extremist right wing opinions - no more
You dismiss or ignore documented facts - why should anybody accept your dredged-up opinions
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Refugee Clampdown
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Jun 18 - 01:39 PM

Can't you se that just dredging up other people's opinions is a waste of time
THere are literally thousands of opposing views on the net - if look looked hard enough we could prove the moon was made of green cheese
You are getting as bad as Keith's "experts" and "real historians" "I only said it because they said it was true"
As mindless then as it is now
Nothing new under the sun
How about some facts?
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Refugee Clampdown
From: Iains
Date: 30 Jun 18 - 02:00 PM

Despite the shortage of CO2 some froth away with gay abandon.


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Subject: RE: BS: Refugee Clampdown
From: Iains
Date: 30 Jun 18 - 02:33 PM

Chancellor Angela Merkel has circulated a letter to coalition partners outlining the deal. The letter also calls for the creation of large "anchor centers" at Germany's borders to process asylum seekers.
Sound awfully like internment camps to me. I wonder if the military will also be involved? They are using military camps in America to house immigrants.
Slight divisions within Europe I see. Is toast on the menu for merkel?

https://www.dw.com/en/chancellor-angela-merkel-unveils-immigration-plan-to-allies/a-44468640


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Subject: RE: BS: Refugee Clampdown
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Jun 18 - 03:11 PM

"Despite the shortage of CO2 some froth away with gay abandon."
You really aren't worth responding to are you?
I think I'll put you in the same box as Keith - others have expressed the same opinion
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Refugee Clampdown
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 01 Jul 18 - 04:43 AM

Despite the shortage of CO2 some froth away with gay abandon.

I blame the lager drinkers. (and those drinking from cans/bottles)
'Real Ale' continues to ferment in the cask, and creates its own gas.

Let's hear it for real ale drinkers, trying to save the world one pint at a time. I'm doing my bit :)


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Subject: RE: BS: Refugee Clampdown
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 01 Jul 18 - 04:43 AM

Jim,
You are getting as bad as Keith's "experts" and "real historians" "I only said it because they said it was true"

Yes. On matters of history I tend to believe actual historians over those whose political opinions do not allow them to believe the historians.
I remind you that you could not find one current historians who agreed your views.


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Subject: RE: BS: Refugee Clampdown
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 01 Jul 18 - 04:46 AM

Actual historians are ones who work in university history departments, not failed journalists like Max Hastings.


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Subject: RE: BS: Refugee Clampdown
From: Iains
Date: 01 Jul 18 - 05:27 AM

Historians like walter laqueur for example.
       He was Director of the Institute of Contemporary History and the Wiener Library in London from 1965 to 1994,[2] From 1969 he was a member, and later Chairman (until 2000), of the International Research Council of the Center for Strategic and International Studies, Washington.[2] He was Professor of the History of Ideas at Brandeis University from 1968 to 1972, and University Professor at Georgetown University from 1976 to 1988. He has also been a visiting professor of history and government at Harvard, the University of Chicago, Tel Aviv University and Johns Hopkins University.

Despite what jimmy says, I think he establishes his credentials beyond dispute.


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Subject: RE: BS: Refugee Clampdown
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Jul 18 - 05:45 AM

" I tend to believe actual historians over those whose political opinions do not allow them to believe the historians."
No Keith you tend to take bits from historians you have'ny read, and distort them to get them to look as if they support your point of view
To use historians you nead to read what they actually say not what you wish they had said
I agree with Iains totally - Walter Lacquer has established his credentials as a Muslim-hating bigot who claims their religion is threatening the world - a sort of Islamophobe David Irving
You and Iains are a matched pair
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Refugee Clampdown
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 01 Jul 18 - 06:02 AM

David,
Actual historians are ones who work in university history departments, not failed journalists like Max Hastings.

I agree.
I remind Jim that he could not find one current academic historian working in universities who agreed his views, and he still cannot.

I was able to quote many in support of my case. Max hastings was not one of my sources.


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Subject: RE: BS: Refugee Clampdown
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 01 Jul 18 - 06:29 AM

This cartoon was produced in a current thread, and lauded by Raggytash and a few others.
It shows EU leaders grinning and waving to drowning and distressed migrants in boats. Theresa May is portrayed standing in one of the boats to make some point or other about Brexit.
I find it sick.
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/picture/2018/jun/29/martin-rowson-on-theresa-may-v-the-eu-27-cartoon#img-1


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Subject: RE: BS: Refugee Clampdown
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Jul 18 - 06:36 AM

"I find it sick."
Then why don't you protest about the fact that is is happening rather than defending Britain's role im making it happen
The best emetic in the world is facing the facts
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Refugee Clampdown
From: Iains
Date: 01 Jul 18 - 06:43 AM

"Walter Lacquer has established his credentials as a Muslim-hating bigot who claims their religion is threatening the world "

Strange. After a thorough internet search I find no one to support your view. This would lead me to suspect that perhaps it is you that is the bigot, and that you cannot accept others do not follow your narrow, perverted view of the world. It is your inability to accept this self evident truth that eventually leads to numerous thread closures. Your provocative post above is simply trolling or as I prefer to say, simply frothing nonsense.


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Subject: RE: BS: Refugee Clampdown
From: Iains
Date: 01 Jul 18 - 06:53 AM

"The best emetic in the world is facing the facts"
Is this a comment on your present medical condition or are you simply acknowledging the fact that for you it is sickening to accept reality?
This could explain your increasingly bizarre postings.


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Subject: RE: BS: Refugee Clampdown
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 01 Jul 18 - 06:56 AM

Best just ignored, Jim. Even moderators have commented on the wild mood swings and Mitty-like claims.


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Subject: RE: BS: Refugee Clampdown
From: Iains
Date: 01 Jul 18 - 07:06 AM

Even moderators have commented on the wild mood swings and Mitty-like claims.

Sounds more like Jim to me. Care to offer proof to the contrary? or are you simply sniping as usual?


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Subject: RE: BS: Refugee Clampdown
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Jul 18 - 07:13 AM

"Best just ignored, Jim."
Iaians is now on my 'ignored list' - i hate trtying to talkk to beople with an ill-brought-up brat in the room - especially when he runs around pretending he's an adult , doesn't everybody?
Keith's just a bit of fun - watch..
Keith
Britain has just sold 48 fighter jets to the Saudis who will certainly use them against the Yemenis, if they aren't already doing so
The Yemen already has immense problems arising from the war and from the famine
Do you think it right for Britain to sell military equipment for such use to such people?
Do you agree that this will add to the refugee crisis?
If you agree that selling these weapons is wrong, why do you keep accusing those who protest against it as "having it in for Britain" ?
If you don't believe such trade to be wrong, why do you descrbe yourself as a moderate and a Christian?
No bullshit or bluster - simple answers please
Jim Carroll
By the way, I couldn't give two ***** who else is trading in weapons - I am talking about our elected government acting on our behalf and covering the hands of our, (the British) people with Third World blood


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Subject: RE: BS: Refugee Clampdown
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 01 Jul 18 - 07:26 AM

Lacquer does have fairly substantial academic credentials, but he is now 97, and seems to be letting his background and prejudices get in the way of his scholarship.


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Subject: RE: BS: Refugee Clampdown
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Jul 18 - 10:19 AM

"Lacquer does have fairly substantial academic credentials,"
Looking at some of his earlier stuff, I would think that what you say is about right David.
The sites that are promoting him are full of pretty nightmare stuff.
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: Refugee Clampdown
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 01 Jul 18 - 12:51 PM

Dave,
Even moderators have commented on the wild mood swings and Mitty-like claims.
Where can I see this please?

Jim,
Then why don't you protest about the fact that is is happening

I find it very distressing, but the causes are complex. They are mostly fleeing poverty. They are ruthlessly exploited by the traffickers. The traffickers promise them they will be rescued from the sea by the West. The West can not leave them to drown so aid the traffickers.
There is no single culprit or cause to protest.

If you agree that selling these weapons is wrong, why do you keep accusing those who protest against it as "having it in for Britain"

It is not wrong to be a responsible arms trader. UK has the tightest controls of any nation.
If you want to discuss the arms trade, start a thread. Yemenis are not significantly part of the refugee crisis yet. Iran is sponsoring the war there and have launched attacks on Saudi.


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Subject: RE: BS: Refugee Clampdown
From: Iains
Date: 01 Jul 18 - 01:11 PM

Seems the refugee/asylum seeker/immigrant deal within the EU was false news after all!


https://www.dw.com/en/angela-merkels-coalition-partner-escalates-asylum-row/a-44481333


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Subject: RE: BS: Refugee Clampdown
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Jul 18 - 01:33 PM

You are a total hypocrite Keith
You have answered nothing apart from that you are happy that Britain lives off the profit of financing mass murderers
Christians - I've shit better
Don't call us, we won't call you
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Refugee Clampdown
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Jul 18 - 01:35 PM


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Subject: RE: BS: Refugee Clampdown
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Jul 18 - 01:36 PM

WHAT YOU ARE SUPPORTING


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Subject: RE: BS: Refugee Clampdown
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Jul 18 - 01:38 PM

Didn't I tell you this was good fun Dave - and easy?
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Refugee Clampdown
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 01 Jul 18 - 01:43 PM

Your a bad lad, Jim. You know you shouldn't mock the afflicted :-)


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Subject: RE: BS: Refugee Clampdown
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 01 Jul 18 - 02:00 PM

Your=You're.

Before the grammar police arrive...


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Subject: RE: BS: Refugee Clampdown
From: Iains
Date: 01 Jul 18 - 02:04 PM

From: Jim Carroll - PM
Date: 01 Jul 18 - 01:35 PM




                            .!

I must congratulate you! Out of 24000 "musings" the above at 01:35
is the most succinct and sensible one from you.
    This thread has become circular, and somebody started a new thread. I'm going to close this thread and ask people to post on the Walk or Die thread. Thanks.
    -Joe Offer-


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This Thread Is Closed.


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