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H M Belden. Ballads and Songs-Unfortunate Rake

DigiTrad:
BARD OF ARMAGH
PILLS OF WHITE MERCURY
STREETS OF LAREDO (Cowboy's Lament)
THE DYING LUMBERMAN
THE LINEMAN'S HYMN
THE STREETS OF LOREDO
THE TROOPER CUT DOWN IN HIS PRIME
UNFORTUNATE LASS


Related threads:
Lyr Req: Trooper Cut Down in His Prime (Roy Palmer (47)
Lyr Req: Handful of Laurel (9)
Streets of Laredo - 'Live in the Nation'?? (57)
Streets of Stavanger aka The Seasick Norwegian (8)
Lyr Add: Pills of White Mercury (26)
Lyr Req: Streets of Toledo (Paul Clayton) (18)
(origins) Origins: Pills of White Mercury (36) (closed)
Streets of Laredo (37)
Chords Req: Pills of White Mercury (Old Blind Dogs (16)
(origins) ...all wrapped in white linen. (63) (closed)
BUCK'S ELEGY -- A corrupt text? (65) (closed)
Lyr Add: Tom Sherman's Barroom (4)
Lyr Req: Pills of White Mercury (5)
Lyr Req: The Pills of White Mercury (2)


GUEST,Karen 23 Jun 18 - 08:29 AM
Jim Carroll 23 Jun 18 - 09:01 AM
RTim 23 Jun 18 - 09:05 AM
Jim Carroll 23 Jun 18 - 09:11 AM
RTim 23 Jun 18 - 09:14 AM
GUEST,Karen 24 Jun 18 - 06:43 AM
Joe Offer 24 Jun 18 - 10:05 PM
Jim Carroll 25 Jun 18 - 02:09 AM
GUEST,Karen 25 Jun 18 - 07:01 AM
Steve Gardham 25 Jun 18 - 12:34 PM
Lighter 25 Jun 18 - 06:02 PM
Sandra in Sydney 25 Jun 18 - 09:15 PM
GUEST,Karen 26 Jun 18 - 07:30 AM
Steve Gardham 26 Jun 18 - 01:38 PM
Steve Gardham 26 Jun 18 - 04:55 PM
Steve Gardham 26 Jun 18 - 05:04 PM
GUEST,Kevin W. 26 Jun 18 - 05:36 PM
Steve Gardham 26 Jun 18 - 05:39 PM
Jim Carroll 27 Jun 18 - 02:29 AM
GUEST,Karen 27 Jun 18 - 02:41 AM
GUEST,Karen 27 Jun 18 - 03:13 AM
Joe Offer 27 Jun 18 - 03:26 AM
GUEST,Karen 27 Jun 18 - 03:47 AM
GUEST 27 Jun 18 - 04:49 AM
GUEST,Kevin W. 27 Jun 18 - 05:08 AM
GUEST 27 Jun 18 - 05:22 AM
GUEST,Karen 27 Jun 18 - 05:39 AM
GUEST,Kevin W. 27 Jun 18 - 06:10 AM
Jim Carroll 27 Jun 18 - 07:41 AM
Jim Carroll 27 Jun 18 - 08:18 AM
GUEST,Karen 27 Jun 18 - 08:25 AM
GUEST,Kevin W. 27 Jun 18 - 08:46 AM
Jim Carroll 27 Jun 18 - 09:09 AM
GUEST,Karen 27 Jun 18 - 09:42 AM
Lighter 27 Jun 18 - 09:56 AM
Jim Carroll 27 Jun 18 - 10:06 AM
Steve Gardham 27 Jun 18 - 04:58 PM
Steve Gardham 27 Jun 18 - 05:13 PM
GUEST,Karen 27 Jun 18 - 06:58 PM
GUEST,Karen 27 Jun 18 - 07:56 PM
GUEST,Karen 27 Jun 18 - 08:06 PM
Jim Carroll 28 Jun 18 - 03:41 AM
Jim Carroll 28 Jun 18 - 03:58 AM
GUEST,Kevin W. 28 Jun 18 - 06:05 AM
Jim Carroll 28 Jun 18 - 06:11 AM
John Moulden 28 Jun 18 - 10:59 AM
GUEST,Karen Heath 28 Jun 18 - 03:16 PM
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Subject: H M Belden. Ballads and Songs
From: GUEST,Karen
Date: 23 Jun 18 - 08:29 AM

Hello.

I came across a reference to pages 392 to 397 of H M Belden's "Ballads and Songs Collected by the Missouri Folklore Society recently while researching "The Unfortunate Lad/Rake".

If anybody has access to this, I would like to know more about what it says. This would include any references cited in the notes to the relevant Belden Section, and dates for any songs collected by the Society explicitly called 'The Unfortunate Rake' or having the word Rake in their titles.

Thanking you in advance


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Subject: Unfortunate Rake (from Belden)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Jun 18 - 09:01 AM

There you go
Can't include the tune, but if you want, I'll e-mail it to you
Jim

The Unfortunate Rake

This is an adaptation to the cattle range of a British stall ballad on the death and burial of a soldier ‘disordered’ by a woman. Such printed it as ‘The Unfortunate Lad,’ whose comrades find him ‘down by Lock Hospital'* wrapp’d in flannel, so hard is his fate.’ He states the situation adequately:
    Had she but told me when she disordered me,
    Had she but told me of it in time,
    I might have got salts and pills of white mercury,
    But now I’m cut down in the height of my prime,
and proceeds to order his funeral:
    Muffle your drums, play your pipes merrily,
    Play the dead march as you go along,
    And fire your guns right over my coffin,
    There goes an unfortunate lad to his home.

It is reported as traditional song from Yorkshire (JFSS I 254) and Somen (JPSS IV 326). It is perhaps originally Irish; Joyce (OIFMS No. 442) gives a tune and one stanza as ‘sung in Cork about the year 1790.’ More frequently recorded is a form in which the sexes are reversed, ‘The Young Girl Cut Down in her Prime.’ This has been reported from traditional singing in Hertfordshire (JFSS V 193-4), Oxfordshire (JFSS IV 326), Hampshire (JFSS IV 325-6), and on this side of the water in Nova Scotia (SBNS 219-20, BSSNS 301, JAFL XXV 277) and Maine (BFSSNE XI 18). The cowboy adaptation is widely known. It is No. 952 in Wehman’s series of single-sheet ballads. Texts have been reported from Nova Scotia (BSSNS 302), Maine (BFSSNE VIII 16-7), Massachusetts (JAFL XXV 277, BFSSNE VII 16—from Kansas), Pennsylvania (NPM 196-7, remade for lumberjacks), Virginia (SharpK II 164-5, SCSM 354-6, 358), West Virginia (JAFL XXV 154, FSS 242-6, FSWV 24-6), Kentucky (FSMEU 209-10), North Carolina (SCSM 356-8, FSSH 360), Mississippi (JAFL XXV 153-4), Illinois (ABS 170-1, by way of Wyoming, TSSI 181-4), Iowa (MAFLS XXIX 103-5), Nebraska (Thorp’s Songs of the Cowboys 41-4, where a headnote says: ‘Authorship credited to Troy Hale, Battle Creek, Nebraska’), North Dakota (JAFL XXII 258-9), and Montana Margaret Larkin’s Singing Cowboy 14-5, where drum and fife are replaced by rope and spurs). ‘The Dying Cowboy’ mentioned by Jones KNR 300 as known in Michigan is probably this song. Sandburg includes it in ASb and Lomax in CS, and Barry (BFSSNE VIII 16) notes that Mrs. Flanders printed a text from Vermont in the Springfield Sunday Union for 4 March, 1934. These cowboy versions seldom if ever ascribe the cowboy’s death to the cause so lucidly stated in the British stall print. He has indeed taken to bad courses, has drunk and gambled; and now he has been shot. And the scene, naturally, is not a hospital. Some location is almost always given, most often a barroom.

note: It is not clear whether ‘White Copper Alley,’ reported by Miss Broadwood from Hampshire (JFSS III 292, a single stanza), belongs with ‘The Unfortunate Rake’ or with ‘The Young Girl Cut Down in her Prime. ’
ín one of the Virginia texts (SharpK II 164, where the man is not a cowboy but a sailor) and in one of Lomax’s (CS 420-1) the original scene, or rather a memory of it, has been retained: ‘Saint James’s hospital.’

A
‘The Cowboy.’ From the manuscript ballad-book of Mrs. Lida Jones of Dade County, secured by Miss Lowry in 1906. The manuscript is defective in stanza 2, and I have made restorations in brackets. The name at the end is probably that of the supplier of the text.
    As I rode down to Letheric Barren,
    To Letheric Barren so early one morn,
    ’Twas there I spied a handsome young cowboy
    All dressed in white linen, all clothed for the grave.

    Chorus:
    ‘Then beat the drum lowly and play the fife slowly,
    And play the dead march as they bear me away,
    Then take me to the graveyard and lay the sod o’er me,
    For I’m a young cowboy, and I know I’ve done wrong.

    ‘ ’Twas once in my saddle I used to go dashing,
    ’Twas once in my saddle I used to [go by, ]
    I first took to card playing and th[en to hard drinking,]
    Got shot in the body, and now I mu[st die.]

    ‘Go write me a letter to my gray-headed mother,
    And gently bear the news to my sister so dear;
    But there’s another that’s dearer than a sister;
    Who’ll bitterly weep when she finds that I am here.

    ‘Go gather around you a band of young cowboys
    And tell them the history of a comrade so dear.
    Then teach one another, before you go further,
    To stop their wild roving before ’tis too late.

    ‘ Go bring me a glass, a glass of cold water,
    A glass of cold water, ’ the poor boy said.
    But when he returned his soul had departed,
    Had gone to the giver; the cowboy was dead.
    (Nannie W. Dick)

B
‘The Dying Cowboy.’ Reported by C. H. Williams from Bollinger County in 1906. Text closely similar to A, but lacks the second and fourth stanzas. The place-name is different from that in any other text known to me:
    As I walked down the Curis Viron
    The Curis Viron so early one day—

C
‘The Dying Cowboy.’ Sent to me in 1909 by George F. Nardin of Vandalia. Audrain County. It is the text, he says, ‘as I used to sing it. ’ Does not differ from A except in the location:
    As I went down to a London bar room—

D
‘The Cowboy Song.’ Communicated in 1909 by E.E. Chiles, who says it was ‘given by a section boss named Hughes to Miss Mamie Griffen (age 12), and copied by her. Cedar City, Callaway County.’ Apparently Hughes’s was a printed text. It is similar to B except in the place-name:
    As I rode down to Lafferry, Lafferry,
    As I rode down to Lafferry one day—

E
‘The Cowboy’s Lament.’ Reported by Miss Newell in 1912 as 'copied from a printed sheet owned by Mrs. T. B. Chandler’ of Farmington, St. Francois County. ‘A friend gave her the sheet,’ Miss Newell says, ‘about fifteen years ago, but she had known the song from the time she could remember.’ The text as copied does not fit the tune, lacking the repeat of the place-name, which I have inserted in the notation of the tune. ‘Latern in Barin’ is no doubt the same place as the ‘Letheric Barren’ of A, and the ‘Lathan’s bar room’ of H.

TUNE MISSING
    As I rode down to Latern in Barin
    So early one day,
    ’Twas there I espied a handsome young cowboy
    All dressed in white linen and clothed for the grave.

    Chorus:
    ‘Then play your fife lowly, and beat your drum slowly,
    And play the dead march as you carry me along;
    Go take me to the graveyard and place the sod o’er me,
    For I’m a young cowboy, and I know I’ve done wrong.

    * ’Twas once in my saddle I used to go dashing,
    ’Twas once in my saddle I used to be gay;
    But first I took to drinking and then to card playing,
    Got shot through the body, so now I must die.

    ‘Go gather all around you a crowd of young cowboys
    , And tell them the history of this my fate;
    Go tell them to stop their deep, deep drinking
    And all their wild ways before it’s too late.

    ‘Go write a letter to my grayheaded mother,
    And bear the news gently to my sister so dear.
    But then there’s another far dearer than a mother;
    She’ll bitterly weep when she knows I am here.

    ‘Go bring me a cup, a cup of cold water,
    Of pure cold water,’ the poor fellow said;
    But when I returned the spirit had departed
    And gone to the Giver—the cowboy was dead.

F
No title. Reported by Miss Pauline Pfeiffer in 1918 as learned at Piggott, Arkansas, from Mrs. Will Reves, ‘who got it from her father, who lives in Kentucky. ’
    So early one mornin’ I went cow lowin’,
    So early one morning I went over there.
    I met a young cowboy all dressed in white linen,
    With clear blue eyes and dark wavy brown hair.

    Chorus:
    ‘Beat the drum lowly, play the fife sadly,
    Play the dead march as they carry me on.
    Take me to the graveyard, pour the sod o’er me;
    For I’m a young cowboy, I know I’ve done wrong.’

G
‘Old Laredo. ’ Communicated by Miss Beulah Wohlbeck in 1934, who had it from an uncle, about sixty years old, living in Morgan County.
    As I rode out in the streets of old Laredo,
    As I rode out in Laredo one day,
    I saw a young cowboy all wrapped in white linen,
    All wrapped in white linen and as cold as the clay.

    ‘I see by your outfit that you are a cowboy, ’
    These words he did say as I boldly stepped by.
    ‘Come sit down beside me and hear my sad story,
    For I’m shot in the breast and I know I must die.

    ‘Once I was a cowboy and used to go dashing,
    Once I was a cowboy and used to go gay;
    Went first to hard drinking, then to card playing,
    Am shot in the breast and am dying today.

    ‘Go carry the news to my dear old father,
    Go carry the news to my sister so dear,
    But there is still one that is still dearer than either
    That would be a-weeping if she knew I was here.

    ‘Go get six cowboys to carry my coffin,
    Go get six pretty maidens to carry my pall,
    Put bunches of roses all over my coffin,
    Put roses to deaden the clouds* as they fall.

    ‘Go gather around you a crowd of young cowboys
    And tell them the story of this my sad fate;
    Tell one another before they go farther
    To quit their wild roving before it’s too late.

    ‘Go beat the drum slowly and play the fife lowly,
    Go play the dead march as you carry me along,
    Go take me to the churchyard and lay the sod o’er me,
    For I’m a young cowboy, and I know I’ve done wrong.

    ‘Go bring me a cup, a cup of cold water
    To cool my parched lips,’ the cowboy said.
    Before I had turned, the spirit had left him.
    And gone to its giver. The cowboy was dead.

    We beat the drum slowly and played the fife lowly
    And bitterly wept as we carried him along,
    For we all loved our comrade so brave, young, and handsome.
    For we all loved our comrade although he’d done wrong.

    *Miswritten no doubt for ‘clods.’ The English stall ballad is more realistic:
      And give to each of them bunches of roses,
      That they may not smell me as they go along.
H
‘The Dying Cowboy.’ From the MS ballad-book of Mrs. John Singleton, of Randolph County, lent to me by her son, Dr. Ralph Singleton, of the Connecticut Experiment Station, in 1938. The entry in the ballad-book was made about 1891. The text does not differ essentially from A.

*Lock Hospital is a special hospital for venereal diseases, located in Harrow Road, London.


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Subject: RE: H M Belden. Ballads and Songs
From: RTim
Date: 23 Jun 18 - 09:05 AM

Well done Jim - you beat me to this by about 2 minutes.......I read the request, found my copy of Belden - found the song - and saw you had replied....

Tim Radford


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Subject: RE: H M Belden. Ballads and Songs
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Jun 18 - 09:11 AM

Hi Tim
If you've done it, can you check mine to see if it's right (a bit busy painting window-frames while the sun shines at present)
My OCR programme is playing up
Jim


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Subject: RE: H M Belden. Ballads and Songs
From: RTim
Date: 23 Jun 18 - 09:14 AM

Looks OK to me - although you posted it twice............

I am watching the Belgium v Tunisia game.....so not concentrating much!

Tim R


Fixed


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Mrs. Case, in Belden/Missouri
From: GUEST,Karen
Date: 24 Jun 18 - 06:43 AM

Hello. If the OP still has the copy of Belden, I am interested in information about songs collected and said to the in the family/ies of The Unfortunate Rake/Lad Cowboy's Lament Gambler's Blues in Belden.


For example, were the words 'St James Hospital' in any of these. Were any called 'The Unfortunate Rake'


All information gratefully received. I am compiling a sort of historiography on this song family


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Subject: RE: H M Belden. Ballads and Songs
From: Joe Offer
Date: 24 Jun 18 - 10:05 PM

Hi, Karen - I moved your most recent message over from another thread. Having two Belden threads open at the same time, gets confusing. Jim Carroll posted the entire text of pages 392-397 of Belden. The only thing he missed was the music notation for version E [if you need that, email me at joe@mudcat.org and I'll send you a scan]. I cleaned up the formatting of Jim's post, so I think you have a pretty accurate representation of what's in Belden.

In answer to your most recent question: This family of songs is known as "The Unfortunate Rake." It includes "Streets of Laredo" and "Pills of White Mercury" and many other titles. Belden keeps them together in the section Jim posted for you - and Belden cites the title if it's available.

So, to be official, the source is Ballads and Songs Collected by the Missouri Folk-Lore Society, edited by H.M. Belden (The University of Missouri Studies. First printed 1955, reprinted 1955)

I've got lots of song collections from lots of states - apparently, this was a 'thing' once upon a time - but I think that this one is my favorite of all of them. Belden assembled a wide selection of songs (not just Child Ballads) and researched them thoroughly and provided a number of samples of each. This book is a delight - the segment Jim posted is a good example of the quality of Belden's work.

-Joe Offer, Mudcat Music Editor-
(joe@mudcat.org)


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Subject: RE: H M Belden. Ballads and Songs-Unfortunate Rake
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Jun 18 - 02:09 AM

THanks for tidying up my post - we're in the middle of a heat=wave here and I'm trying to paint our window frames before the Clare monsoon season is upon us (the other 50 weeks of the year)
Jim


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Subject: RE: H M Belden. Ballads and Songs-Unfortunate Rake
From: GUEST,Karen
Date: 25 Jun 18 - 07:01 AM

I am really grateful for this. So nice of people. As Jim is probably aware, I am contributing to what I just found out could be called a 'historiographical piece' on this song, and am doggedly tracing back references. And to respond when there are window frames to be painted! Really appreciated. And his sources too, some of which I have already seen, some seem new. This will keep me 'out of trouble' as they say for a while!

To Joe: sorry to muddle threads. I'm not very good at Mudcatting yet. But it is an amazing enterprise; many thanks. I know it's often *called* The Unfortunate Rake, but I am avoiding that title on principle at the moment, or at least until I find an old song in that family actually using that title (as opposed to A L Lloyd's version/s).


I have read about Belden and yes it seems his collecting work was amazing.

Heat wave here, desperate roofers knocking on door (house being roofed/rooved? not occupied begging for water! I'm inside with the curtains shut, keeps out the pollen too. And not watching football.

If you are not obsessively interested in why so many people refer to 'The Unfortunate Rake' when there seems to be no direct evidence that such a song existed in England or Ireland (not one in this family), stop reading now! But if you feel inclined to debate, happy to!

I wanted to see what Belden says as another oldish article I read possibly cited Belden as an authority for various assertions about the origin of this song. So, being the occard sort who likes to trace references back, I wanted to see what Belden DID say, as people didn't always, I feel, take care to be wholly accurate or to reference their claims. And it looks as if this is another example. To explain the chain, it goes backwards from the Liner Notes to the Unfortunate Rake LP to an American writer called Lodewick.


Lodewick's paragraph goes as follows:


"Other versions are called, variously, 'The Unfortunate Rake' and 'The Irish Rake' from Ireland and 'The Unfortunate Lad' 'The Rakish Fellow' 'St James Hospital' and 'The Rambling Boy' all from England. Copies of these versions were originally published as stall ballads or broadsides during the early 19th century and are now rare. These versions are generally reported as too vulgar to publish. However, several sources quote choruses all identical with the following .."


Lodewick then quotes the last verse of the Such Broadside, citing Belden. I wondered if he was citing Belden as the source for all this songs, and the assertion that they were all published as early 19th century broadsides. It would appear not. But then there is no reference for Lodewick's claim that St James hospital was from Englaned (this is an inference discussed elsewhere, which I am not convinced by).

So to answer my own questions:


1 The only St James words Belden refers to are Lomax (about whom people have said that the actual words he collected are not audible, and who admits to having tinkered with his cowboy songs) and Sharp. He does not even cite the Novia Scotia version with those words (are the dates wrong).

He is inferring that St James was the original place, and is maybe the earliest I have come across to make a guess about where in England the lock hospital was, citing Harrow Road. The London Lock Hospital was in Harrow Road from 1842, and seems to have become all female in 1862, and was expanded after the Contagious Diseases Acts.
I got this from Wiki.

2 It doesn't seem that any versions Belden collected were called 'The Unfortunate Rake'.

Belden says 'It is perhaps Irish' citing the My Jewel fragment and showing a healthy restraint about jumping to firm conclusions about this as Philips Barry did. Belden doesn't seem to have seen the Covent Garden version. I still can't work out which folklorists interested in this song found that particular version.

So Lodewick doesn't provide evidence for a lot of what he says.

Once again, many thanks.


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Subject: RE: H M Belden. Ballads and Songs-Unfortunate Rake
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 25 Jun 18 - 12:34 PM

Karen,
Until we started delving into the many broadside collections in the 60s, researchers and scholars really had comparatively little information about what was printed on broadsides. As far as I can make out 'The Unfortunate Rake' title seems to have been just an unfortunate mistake, due to the assumption by earlier editors that the Irish 'Unfortunate Rake' was the same song as 'The Unfortunate Lad' when all they had to go on was a tune title. At that time it only took one editor to publish that statement and the rest, with limited resources, simply repeated the error. It happens a lot in a subject like ours where research was and is thin on the ground and mainly carried out (at least this side of the pond) by private researchers.


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Subject: RE: H M Belden. Ballads and Songs-Unfortunate Rake
From: Lighter
Date: 25 Jun 18 - 06:02 PM

Joe, Belden's "Ballads and Songs" was reprinted in 1955 but first published in 1940.


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Subject: RE: H M Belden. Ballads and Songs-Unfortunate Rake
From: Sandra in Sydney
Date: 25 Jun 18 - 09:15 PM

Steve wrote - At that time it only took one editor to publish that statement and the rest, with limited resources, simply repeated the error.

Still happens - I've seen a mistake I published in an early article in my Club's blog (X was a foundation member) repeated in other places as X is famous! Further research found it was not so & I've since corrected the original article ...

sandra


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Subject: RE: H M Belden. Ballads and Songs-Unfortunate Rake
From: GUEST,Karen
Date: 26 Jun 18 - 07:30 AM

Steve

I think I agree with you and understand. It has taken me a long time to get my head around the fact that the 'experts' to whom one is referred might not have got it right.

When I started out on this, I was pointed in the direction of A L Lloyd as a source by people who regarded him as a reliable authority. I have learned so much just by looking into just one song, and I don't even sing or play it, only a re-written version of St James' Infirmary (which then got 'collected' by somebody or other, as evidence of popular culture, much to our amusement - and enjoyment!)

My folk knowledge is at the banging on the table at the right moment in Wild Rover level.

As you may have gathered, I have got interested in who said what about this song when. It's like a story, a fascinating one, in itself! The earliest I found alluding to TUR were Philips Barry, and the early Kidson EFSS piece, though there have been others. Barry seems to have influenced a line going down to Lloyd, as you can see by tracing references backwards.

I think that what you might call, broadly, 'ideological', or maybe 'cultural' factors influence interpretations. For example, I would bet that Barry had Irish ancestors. I think this is key because why would Irish people want to proudly claim to have originated a song about syphilis? The answer as Barry more or less says is that it has become an important part of US culture, and he wants to show that the Irish have contributed to that.


Thank you for your contributions.


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Subject: RE: H M Belden. Ballads and Songs-Unfortunate Rake
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 26 Jun 18 - 01:38 PM

>>>>My folk knowledge is at the banging on the table at the right moment in Wild Rover level.<<<<<

Now this I can't believe. If this is true you have achieved a remarkable level of knowledge in an incredibly short time. You mention Barry, a scholar who was studying the material a century ago. Someone like Vic you would expect to be much better informed and you'd be right.


If you want to take the matter further, and you have me hooked already, a good idea would be to give here a chronological list of the mentions of TUF with dates/personnel etc and perhaps even a hint at who might have influenced who. Meanwhile I'll try to find my earliest relevant references in Ireland. I have Petrie, Bunting and Joyce. From what I've read already this would seem to be a lost cause but at least we can eliminate some possible sources.


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Subject: RE: H M Belden. Ballads and Songs-Unfortunate Rake
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 26 Jun 18 - 04:55 PM

I see from the other thread the version with SJI c1790 is in the Joyce book I don't have. Even if the SJI Cork version is mid 19thc it still predates any American version with SJI in it. I can't find anything in Petrie that has an English title beginning with U.


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Subject: RE: H M Belden. Ballads and Songs-Unfortunate Rake
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 26 Jun 18 - 05:04 PM

In going to print off the Sam Hinton version I noticed that this version has been expanded. Have you got a copy of what is actually given by Joyce please?


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Subject: RE: H M Belden. Ballads and Songs-Unfortunate Rake
From: GUEST,Kevin W.
Date: 26 Jun 18 - 05:36 PM

Here's the original page from the book:
My Jewel, My Joy (Joyce)


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Subject: RE: H M Belden. Ballads and Songs-Unfortunate Rake
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 26 Jun 18 - 05:39 PM

Karen
Okay, got it from Wikipedia. I couldn't find it in the online Joyce at ITMA. So just that one verse, obviously related, but somewhat garbled, and almost a parody or answer. I'm sure I've seen other ballads with this verse which would make it a commonplace.


My jewel, my joy, don't trouble me with the drum,
Play the dead march as my corpse goes along
And over my body throw handfuls of laurel
And let them all know that I'm going to my rest.

The first line is obviously responding to the usual chorus, and the last line should be the line that ends in 'done wrong'.


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Subject: RE: H M Belden. Ballads and Songs-Unfortunate Rake
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Jun 18 - 02:29 AM

I assume you've followed this possible Irish link Karen
SOUTH DUBLIN UNION
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: H M Belden. Ballads and Songs-Unfortunate Rake
From: GUEST,Karen
Date: 27 Jun 18 - 02:41 AM

Thanks Jim. I think I did know vaguely there was a St James in Dublin.
I found another link on this:

http://www.workhouses.org.uk/DublinSouth/


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Subject: RE: H M Belden. Ballads and Songs-Unfortunate Rake
From: GUEST,Karen
Date: 27 Jun 18 - 03:13 AM

Tried to post something, clicked preview and the whole darn thing has vanished. :(


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Subject: RE: H M Belden. Ballads and Songs-Unfortunate Rake
From: Joe Offer
Date: 27 Jun 18 - 03:26 AM

Hi, Karen - before you post something long, it's a good idea to highlight [CTRL-A] and copy [CTRL-C] your text, and then check to see that it "took." If it didn't "take," you can paste [CTRL-V] the text in a message box and try again. I often lose my most profound posts when I forget to do that.
-Joe-


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Subject: RE: H M Belden. Ballads and Songs-Unfortunate Rake
From: GUEST,Karen
Date: 27 Jun 18 - 03:47 AM

I cannot make it take. I'll try again later in the day.


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Subject: RE: H M Belden. Ballads and Songs-Unfortunate Rake
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Jun 18 - 04:49 AM

Steve. This is based on something I was doing elsewhere.

1904 JFFS Kidson and? Rippleton Garden Version. Conjectures that air 'The Unfortunate Rake' might have been original tune. Cites sources for that tune.

1909 PW Joyce. Quotes My Jewel My Joy Fragment. Does not link it to TUR

1911 Philips Barry 1911 and 1912. Harvard Educated folklorist. Journal of American Folklore.
http://www.jstor.org/stable/534460 and
http://www.jstor.org/stable/534824>
In 1911 discusses Cowboy's Lament, traces this back to song he inexplicably calls TUR, no refs. Asserts incorrectly that Joyce 'traces' the song in Ireland. Joyce makes no such link.
1912 more or less repeats same material. Confusingly he quotes a such type ending, stating this is the earliest known form. Makes some other mistakes eg the soldier is dying IN hospital.

1913 English Folk Song Society journal. Young girl cut down in her prime. No mention of TUR. Several tunes provided by Sharp who says they are 'of the Henry Martin type'. (NB A L Loyd had read all the EFFS articles.

1918 Sharp and Karpeles visit the Appalachians. NB Book with the St James Hospital song not published until the 30s, as Vol 2, though Sharp left photostats of his notes at Harvard.

1920s W Roy Mackenzie (another Harvard educated collector) collects a St James Hospital version in Novia Scotia. I did have the reference for this but have lost it.   Karpeles who edited the 2nd vol of Appalachian songs was aware of this version. I think that 2nd vol might have been where I got the ref, but it was inter library loan and I sent it back. Ref lost due to computer crash/failure to sensibly back stuff up on external hard disc.

1925 Moore and Baxter's Gambler's Blues published in Arkansas by Baxter. Joe's bar-room

1927 The American Song bag. St Joe's bar-room. St Joe's Infirmary.

1927 Fess Williams' Gambler's Blues.

1928 Louis Armstrong's 1928 St James Infirmary. Massive international hit.

1932 2nd volume of Sharp's Appalachian songs published, with the Dewey St James Hospital version in it.


1933 Lomax collects a song ? possibly including St James Hospital words from Ironhead in prison.

1937 Bath Hospital version published in EFDS society. Oddly, since those words had never been found in England, they entitled the piece St James Hospital.   
http://www.jstor.org/stable/4521114>

1947 A L Lloyd's first article on St James Infirmary Blues published. His refs include PW Joyce (as above), the 1904 Kidson article, Cecil Sharp in the Appalachians Vol 2, John and Alan Lomax's Cowboy Songs (he provides a 'condensed' version of Cowboy's Lament). My copy of this has a page missing, just after he cites Mackenzie and Mrs Ellen Bigney of Pictu. This he may have got via Karpeles' edition of Appalachians Vol 2. She put notes in it on some songs. But this is the missing page, so I don't have his reference. Says song TUL also known as TUR. No example given.


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Subject: RE: H M Belden. Ballads and Songs-Unfortunate Rake
From: GUEST,Kevin W.
Date: 27 Jun 18 - 05:08 AM

Lomax also collected a version with the "St James Hospital" words in 1937 in Florida and one which has "Jones Hospital" in Ohio, also in 1937:
St. James Hospital - Mrs. G. A. Griffin
Jones' Hospital - Captain Pearl R. Nye


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Subject: RE: H M Belden. Ballads and Songs-Unfortunate Rake
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Jun 18 - 05:22 AM

Sorry I was 'guest' who posted the chronology which continues here. It took me years (on and off) to work through it all.

Link for American Songbag:
https://archive.org/details/americansongbag029895mbp>

Belden published?

1955 Kenneth Lodewick article The Unfortunate Rake and his descendants.
Source of mistaken belief that My Jewel My Joy was heard in Dublin.
References include: Joyce. Belden. John Lomax on Cowboy songs. The 1904 English Folk Song Society piece. The 1913 Folk Song Society piece. Cecil Sharp's/Karpeles/ Appalachian vol 2. Helen Creighton on Novia Scotia (I *think* she cites Mackenzie) 'The usual suspects'!

Takes it for granted that there once was an TUR song.
http://www.jstor.org/stable/1496993>

1956 2nd Lloyd article in 'Sing' magazine. In this one he says he prefers the My Jewel My Joy tune.

1956 ? First release of A L Lloyd version on Folkways.
https://mainlynorfolk.info/lloyd/records/englishstreetsongs.html

1958 Short piece by Waylon Hand in Western Folklore states that the original may now be heard as sung by A L LLoyd….
http://www.jstor.org/stable/1496046 "This rare old ballad can now be heard in full from an old broadside version in the singing of A L Lloyd" In his dreams!

1959 Goldstein publishes short piece in 'Western Folklore'.

http://www.jstor.org/stable/1496842>
It is an explicit link to Lodewick, called 'Still more of the Unfortunate Rake and his family' or some such. He makes the link to Sarah Wilson, which has a funeral request in it. He refers to A L LLoyd's Sing article (the 2nd Lloyd article). Some references to Waylon Hand (one of which is in German! I think there was a similar song in German!) Includes a Royal Albion version published in 'Sing', and supposedly (getting cynical about anything linked to Lloyd) collected from Charlie Willis.

1960 Unfortunate Rake LP with liner notes by Goldstein. References include AL Lloyd's Sing article, and Lodewick.


Since then, books, blogs etc citing A L Lloyd's version as a 'genuine' 19th century broadside version. But if it was, then where is it? I think it's a myth!

Phew. Karen


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Subject: RE: H M Belden. Ballads and Songs-Unfortunate Rake
From: GUEST,Karen
Date: 27 Jun 18 - 05:39 AM

And not one of these has a clear reference to any actual 19th-century and related song that was actually called 'The Unfortunate Rake' or to any such broadsheet. I rest my case! I traced back the references looking for it, and concluded it is all smoke and mirrors.


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Subject: RE: H M Belden. Ballads and Songs-Unfortunate Rake
From: GUEST,Kevin W.
Date: 27 Jun 18 - 06:10 AM

Wow, you did a great job, Karen.
That's a very throughough examination, it makes the songs spotty history quite a bit clearer to us.

It's amazing how one reference to the "Unfortunate Rake" air by Frank Kidson made so many following scholars/researchers refer to the "Unfortunate Lad" song family by that title as if the connection between the air and the broadside ballad was a proven fact.
It's the old equivalent to the modern habit of reading something on the internet without any way of checking it's veracity and posting it somewhere else as fact.

It's unfortunate that Bert Lloyd's word was always taken as fact.
I love Bert for the fantastic songs he created, he gave new life to many fogotten songs, but much of what he wrote and said about those songs was made up fake history.
It looks like he often had a theory on a song and when he couldn't find any proof he just made up his own facts to support his theory.
That's not how scholarship works...

In the end, he did us more good than harm, though, and it was actually quite entertaining to work out how his versions of songs like "St. James Hospital", "Reynardine", "The Recruited Collier" and many others came to be.

Part of me understands why he did this, he was probably torn between being a honest researcher and presenting his songs in the most appealing manner possible.
Claiming "I learned this song from an old lady in our village, it goes back to pre-christian times" or something fancy like that is just a lot more interesting than simply saying "I created this song myself by rewritting bits and pieces I found in old books, it is not an authentic text from oral tradition".


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Subject: RE: H M Belden. Ballads and Songs-Unfortunate Rake
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Jun 18 - 07:41 AM

"Part of me understands why he did this, he was probably torn between being a honest researcher and presenting his songs in the most appealing manner possible."
Kevin
I intend to raise this point when this subject has died down a little so as not to interrupt the flow
I met Bert on numerous occasions - we used to give him a lift home from the Singers Club to Greenwich because he never drove
While I didn't get to know him very well (he was a bit 'private' like that), he never struck be as being deliberately dishonest
I think he never really decided whether he wanted to be a singer or a scholar
I believe, from conversations, that he did collect the songs he claimed to have done, from Australia nf in Britain, b
It needs to be remembered that one of the 'fine-tooth-combing' that goes on now with our songs wasn't really important back then.
ut never noted down the information that we do now as collectors

I'm not taking the cudgels up for Bert - just trying to remind people of the times he was working in.
Modern scholarship's tendency to throw the old baby out with the bathwater when it mounts new hobby-horses is beginning to disturb me more that an little.

We don't know the origins of any of these songs, we probably never will.
We can make intelligent guesses based on everything we know rather than changing our theories like we put on clean sock
The smugness of hindsight that raises its unwelcome head more and more nowadays is not going to help
More later
Jim


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Subject: RE: H M Belden. Ballads and Songs-Unfortunate Rake
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Jun 18 - 08:18 AM

Made a bit of a hames of that - sentence sould read:
I believe, from conversations, that he did collect the songs he claimed to but never noted down the information that we do now as collectors
Jim


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Subject: RE: H M Belden. Ballads and Songs-Unfortunate Rake
From: GUEST,Karen
Date: 27 Jun 18 - 08:25 AM

Re the chronology: I missed out the 1927 Dying Crapshooters Blues records. I think these are going with the theme, precursers of the Armstrong version. My favourite is the Martha Copeland one because I like the humour in the music.

The idea that Lloyd never decided whether to be a scholar or a singer has its attractions, and seems supported by some of the things he said/wrote. There are a couple of pieces on him by a person called I think E David Gregory online. If this link works, the essay has a convincing piece on Lloyd's 'editorial practice'. I'm not trying a blue clicky: they never work for me. http://cjtm.icaap.org/content/27/27_gregory.html

I think I would maybe add something like 'creative writer' to the mix, not to imply 'fiction', but in recognition of his 'literary' style. He's fond of simile and metaphor. So maybe, though he denied wanting to write songs, there is an aspect of how can I put it, creativity with language in the mix.


My copy of Roud arrived yesterday (minus half the index, so I got a full refund and no need to return book from the dealer who put it online as 'shelfworn' hence it was cheap to start with). I notice that it lists one *Jim Carroll* as a noteable collector of folk songs. (The C part of the index was present.)


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Subject: RE: H M Belden. Ballads and Songs-Unfortunate Rake
From: GUEST,Kevin W.
Date: 27 Jun 18 - 08:46 AM

Jim,
Maybe I was beeing too harsh on Lloyd, I never got to know him and he's no longer there to speak for himself.
It is unfair of me to criticize him for things that happened long ago and where there's simply no way for me to know the truth since I haven't been there.

I tend to forget that the priorities when it came to folk song collecting have changed quite a bit since the earlier times.
I still lament the fact that most collectors never bothered to ask their informants what their songs meant to them, why they liked them and so on.

The human side is too often ignored and songs are treated separate from their singers, when in truth they are very personal things.


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Subject: RE: H M Belden. Ballads and Songs-Unfortunate Rake
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Jun 18 - 09:09 AM

"I still lament the fact that most collectors never bothered to ask their informants what their songs meant to them,"
That Is one of the greatest holes in our knowledge of folk song Kevin
Jim


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Subject: RE: H M Belden. Ballads and Songs-Unfortunate Rake
From: GUEST,Karen
Date: 27 Jun 18 - 09:42 AM

Re the Unfortunate Rake LP with Lloyd singing a song of that name on it: the person who wrote the liner notes was Goldstein. Those notes seem to me to be crucial in perpetuating the belief that the song sung by Lloyd was actually a 19th century broadside version.

Goldstein later became a professional academic folklorist. At the time of the LP he was a business studies trained record producer interested in producing and selling 'folkloric' products. He produced a very great many of these. He was wearing a commercial, capitalist if you like hat and a folkloric one at the time he wrote the notes.

Lloyd's articles don't refer to his own version, or include quotations from it. I have explained my view on how the accounts he gives of the version he has available fit with his 'theory' of the genesis/development of the various versions.

Not sure I have anything more to comment, though happy to read constructive comments on my ideas, which is part of the point of setting them out here.

Cheers, everybody.


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Subject: RE: H M Belden. Ballads and Songs-Unfortunate Rake
From: Lighter
Date: 27 Jun 18 - 09:56 AM

> "I still lament the fact that most collectors never bothered to ask their informants what their songs meant to them."

Some years ago I asked the unusually articulate MudCat community the same question, regarding either "The Dark-Eyed Sailor" or "Fiddler's Green" (forget which), and got exactly no replies.

It is extremely difficult to explain meaningfully why you like a song or a poem. (Try it yourself.) Explanations are generally "Because it's so good!" or "I love it when X does Y to Z!" or "My parents sang it" or (perhaps in the present case) "It teaches a valuable lesson."

With the inevitable exceptions, I'm not sure that traditional singers would have replied very differently.


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Subject: RE: H M Belden. Ballads and Songs-Unfortunate Rake
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Jun 18 - 10:06 AM

It's not as easy as "like" or "dislike" L
Every singer we asked had an attitude towards their songs - most 'saw them as they sang them'
Walter Pardon had descriptions of his characters - whan he had sung 'The Pretty Ploughboy' for us he pointed out of the window and said 'He used to plough that field out there'

Similarly, Tom Lenihan described his songs as "True - that must have happened"

Asked what he saw when he sang, Mikeen McCarthy told us, "It's like sitting in the pictures"

Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: H M Belden. Ballads and Songs-Unfortunate Rake
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 27 Jun 18 - 04:58 PM

Karen
Many thanks for your study. Between us on Mudcat we still have enough researchers around on both sides of the pond to come up with almost anything written on the subject so if you lack anything you only need to ask. Much is now available online anyway now thanks to the likes of Google, Gutenberg and many universities. It's not all readily available to us plebs but there are academics here as well who can access it.


If you don't want to join the forum you can always make it clear who you are by following Jim's example and put your name to the post.

Bert was to some extent, in the 50s particularly, of his time. However, any folklorist post WWII, even an amateur, would know the difference between honesty and deceit when it comes to presenting folkloric material. He was blessed for much of his life after 1950 with the title 'scholar'. What he presented as folkloric material was definitely not the work of an honest scholar. Numerous examples have come to light in the last 30 years. What this does in effect with regard to his work is put his whole output under suspicion and if anyone wanted to quote Bert nowadays we would have to go back to earlier sources. There is no getting away from this. Like Kevin I am a great admirer of his creative ability and his contribution, in my eyes, well outweighs the negatives, but if we sweep it under the carpet we do ourselves and the subject a great disservice.


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Subject: RE: H M Belden. Ballads and Songs-Unfortunate Rake
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 27 Jun 18 - 05:13 PM

"I still lament the fact that most collectors never bothered to ask their informants what their songs meant to them,"

Whilst agreeing with this statement in principle, could I please ask the unfortunate phrase 'never bothered' to be rethought. What needs to be taken into account is that every time collectors went out to find songs they were of the opinion (not always correct) that these songs were about to disappear and therefore speed in getting down as many as possible was to them/us essential. The other aspect is that almost to a man/woman these collectors were private individuals with no financial backing and no formal training. That was until the 1970s the situation, not ideal, but if these amateurs hadn't become interested we would have precious little left today.

The fact that Jim was able to do this is greatly to his credit, but please don't castigate those who didn't because their priorities were slightly different. Most of them had paid jobs and families to look after and their time was limited.


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Subject: RE: H M Belden. Ballads and Songs-Unfortunate Rake
From: GUEST,Karen
Date: 27 Jun 18 - 06:58 PM

Steve,

Thanks again. I hope somebody will derive some interest from my chronology. And there will be howlers and gaps that I cannot see because I am too close to it all.

I am happy to hear about these, it is part of the reason for sharing ideas. I have learned a great deal from the mudcat debates. It is a brilliant site.

I am conscious of not having the ref for the Mackenzie St James Hospital song from Pictu Novia Scotia, and of not knowing much about any context of collection for that tune.

The various tunes are a whole different matter, and not one much discussed in detail! Ironhead's version was almost a revelation to me; to hear an African American voice at that time singing in that style. It reminds me of another lively and fascinating set of folkloric disagreements, in fact, but this is not the place for those.

Thanks again and thanks to all for sharing.
Karen


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Subject: RE: H M Belden. Ballads and Songs-Unfortunate Rake
From: GUEST,Karen
Date: 27 Jun 18 - 07:56 PM

Re Steve's saying ask about stuff: it would be nice to read a transcription of Ironhead's spoken version, if anybody could obtain such a thing. I'm on the wrong side of the Atlantic. I think several of us might like to see that, judging by the threads.


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Subject: RE: H M Belden. Ballads and Songs-Unfortunate Rake
From: GUEST,Karen
Date: 27 Jun 18 - 08:06 PM

Sorry Goldstein ref for his 1959 article is wrong. It should read

http://www.jstor.org/stable/1496892

Should have gone to Specsavers.:(


JSTOR is a wonderful resource for old folklore articles.


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Subject: RE: H M Belden. Ballads and Songs-Unfortunate Rake
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Jun 18 - 03:41 AM

I don't 'castigate' individuals Steve - I believe it to be a general attitude that 'thoughtless as birdsong' traditional singers had nothing to offer other than their songs and so collected artifacts rather than pieces of people's lives
We entitled an article we wrote about Walter Pardon, "A simple Countryman" after, having explained that Walter Pardon was able to distinguish 'When the Fields Were White With Daisies' from 'Van Dieman's Land', to a well known folkie journalist and researcher, we got the reply, "He's only a simple countryman - he must have been got at"
Even a good friend and fine collector who I once asked whether he took down the background of the songs and the singers feelings about them, replied 'Why - I'm not a psychoanalyst?

The tendency towards the opinion that most of our traditional songs were created as commodities rather than artistic reflections of experiences is not going to help to alter that attitude (too late now anyway)
Neither is lumping everything a field singer sings under the heading "folk" or "traditional"
That implies that people like Walter, or Mikeen McCarthy, or Tom Lenihan.... or those singers who didn't do that were misfits or eccentrics

The 'Talking Horse' definition of folk songs now seems to have made its way into academia in Britain and has been accepted with open arms by the professional Art Establishment
I physically winced at one review which pointed gleefully at Steve Roud's book, virtually saying, "look, the folk didn't create folk song after all - it's just another type of pop song" - bang goes its uniqueness if that ever catches on.

Sorry - I didn't intend to start this up again (yet), butas the matter came up, why waste an opportunity to prosletise
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: H M Belden. Ballads and Songs-Unfortunate Rake
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Jun 18 - 03:58 AM

"Most of them had paid jobs and families to look after and their time was limited."
As was our own situation by the way
One of the saddest and most disgraceful ommissionions to British folk scholarship is its almost total lack of full-time researchers and collectors
What a difference that would have made if it had not been the case
I remember hearing of a very fine University-based folk-studies course being closed down because them in charge believed them to be "a bunch of tree-huggers"
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: H M Belden. Ballads and Songs-Unfortunate Rake
From: GUEST,Kevin W.
Date: 28 Jun 18 - 06:05 AM

Steve,
Sorry if my wording of "never bothered" was disrespectful.
I was trying to say that few early collectors did ask their informants questions about their songs besides "Where did you learn that song?", or if they did they didn't make that material accessible.


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Subject: RE: H M Belden. Ballads and Songs-Unfortunate Rake
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Jun 18 - 06:11 AM

I often wondered if there was any more to the otherwis magnificent BBC 'mopping up campaign' than just the songs
A friend living locally whose father, grandmother, and several uncles were important contributors to the project, is now seeking out material he knew to have been recorded, but has never been made accessible.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: H M Belden. Ballads and Songs-Unfortunate Rake
From: John Moulden
Date: 28 Jun 18 - 10:59 AM

I've had time only to skim this thread so this remark may have been made. Kenny Goldstein published a series of recorded performances on a Folkways Disk "The Unfortunate Rake" the notes for which may be freely downloaded from the Smithsonian-Folkways website.


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Subject: RE: H M Belden. Ballads and Songs-Unfortunate Rake
From: GUEST,Karen Heath
Date: 28 Jun 18 - 03:16 PM

Hello John

And do these notes by any chance claim that a version by A L Lloyd is a 19th century broadside? :)

Sorry to jest: we have done this to death on another thread. One with the title and the word 'Help' in the subject line.


Maybe you will enjoy reading it? Not sure, but worth a try!


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