BS: Car lights during daylight hours???????

Subject: RE: BS: Car lights during daylight hours???????
From: Charmion
Date: 04 Jul 18 - 11:53 AM

Tattie Bogle is right. After cataract surgery, I found an enormous improvement in my ability to tolerate on-coming headlights and even some improvement in sun glare tolerance. The latter was a real surprise.

Subject: RE: BS: Car lights during daylight hours???????
From: Tattie Bogle
Date: 02 Jul 18 - 06:36 PM

Dazzle: yes, car headlights are getting brighter, but people's eye lenses are getting older. If you've not had an optical check in a while, suggest you go for one, including checking for cataract, which is a potent cause for dazzle and seeing haloes around lights.

Subject: RE: BS: Car lights during daylight hours???????
From: Charmion
Date: 02 Jul 18 - 06:27 PM

I learned to drive in the armed forces, as part of my training. Canadian military vehicles in those days were always black, dark green or olive drab, and we were taught always to drive with the headlights on to make us more visible on the road.

Then, when we had mastered that set of skills, we learned to drive overland in tactical conditions, including blackout.

About the same time (circa 1975), the Canadian forces supplied its soldiers with luminescent wristwatches that had to be returned to stores on posting or release.

Thus, we came to accept that we had signed up to serve with an outfit that required us to drive with our lights on in daytime and the lights off at night, and would take away our watch when we retired.

Subject: RE: BS: Car lights during daylight hours???????
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 Jun 18 - 07:40 PM

Give over, Bonzo. You're as daft as a brush.

Subject: RE: BS: Car lights during daylight hours???????
From: Joe Offer
Date: 30 Jun 18 - 03:52 PM

OK, Bonzo, but I'm not driving if you can reach my light switches....

Subject: RE: BS: Car lights during daylight hours???????
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 30 Jun 18 - 03:36 PM

Different thing all together. Side lights are OK if they must have then on, but dazzling headlights are not. That is my objection.

Subject: RE: BS: Car lights during daylight hours???????
From: Joe Offer
Date: 30 Jun 18 - 01:58 PM

I think Bonzo is like a father-in-law I used to have. He'd get mad at daytime lights because it was wasting electricity. One time he reached across me and turned off my turn signal as I was waiting to turn. That was the last time he did that...

Subject: RE: BS: Car lights during daylight hours???????
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 30 Jun 18 - 01:51 PM

The only issue I have with automatic daytime running lights is that, on some car models, they're so bright you can forget to switch your headlights fully on at dusk. So, you're driving along in the dark with headlights, but no taillights.

Subject: RE: BS: Car lights during daylight hours???????
From: Iains
Date: 30 Jun 18 - 01:50 PM

Running lights are just the latest safety progression in vehicle design, from safety glass, seatbelts, indicator lights, hazard lights, rear foglamps, airbags, antilock brakes, crumple zones. Anyone that cannot appreciate the benefits offered by running lights and   the arguments presented should perhaps reconsider their fitness to drive!

Subject: RE: BS: Car lights during daylight hours???????
From: Raedwulf
Date: 30 Jun 18 - 01:24 PM

Which is only going to reduce your vision. Why has it only become a problem in the last couple of weeks? DRL has been around for bloody years. Surely the problem couldn't be you, Bonzo? ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Car lights during daylight hours???????
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 30 Jun 18 - 12:26 PM

I'm not trying to win, I just think it's fucking stupid, and never been a problem until the last couple of weeks. My solution is to buy some decent prescription sun glasses.

Subject: RE: BS: Car lights during daylight hours???????
From: Raedwulf
Date: 30 Jun 18 - 12:13 PM

This is not an argument you are going to win, Bonzo. If car manufacturers are increasingly defaulting to sidelights / low beam on, there's a reason for it. And as Steve rightly says, concentrate on yer bloody driving! ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Car lights during daylight hours???????
From: Tattie Bogle
Date: 30 Jun 18 - 11:25 AM

Paraphrased from my post above which has not been properly read, it seems:
"DAYTIME DRIVING LIGHTS. They are NOT sidelights, headlights or fog-lights, but completely separate LED strips".
They come on automatically when you switch the engine on, and can NOT be switched off!! They are there to make your vehicle more visible to road users and pedestrians.
They correspond to type 3 as listed by Iains above.
I bet at least half of your 100+ "cars with lights on" have these, Bonzo!

Subject: RE: BS: Car lights during daylight hours???????
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 30 Jun 18 - 10:46 AM

No you wouldn't.

Subject: RE: BS: Car lights during daylight hours???????
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 Jun 18 - 10:29 AM

"I counted 103 cars with lights on during 6 mile round trip"

We'd all be a lot safer if you concentrated on your driving instead.

Subject: RE: BS: Car lights during daylight hours???????
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 30 Jun 18 - 10:22 AM

Some Federal government agencies used to require daytime running lights (or headlights in regular, not high-beam). It was a safety consideration. Some of the places I worked and drove, remote twisty dirt roads, any clue that someone is approaching helps, so that flash of light through trees in the distance, is good.

Subject: RE: BS: Car lights during daylight hours???????
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 30 Jun 18 - 09:26 AM

I counted 103 cars with lights on during 6 mile round trip, some with dazzling main beam AND reflection of very bright sunlight from I suppose chrome - all absolutely unnecessary.

Subject: RE: BS: Car lights during daylight hours???????
From: frogprince
Date: 30 Jun 18 - 09:16 AM

As for having lights on in bright clear sunlight: the brighter the sun, the harder the shadows, and the less your eyes are adjusted to see into the shadows. Taint rocket surgery. Generally there isn't that much point to it at mid day, but there are such things as spots of country road that are pretty much tunnels through overhanging trees. The more you have a habit of leaving 'em on, the more likely they will be on when it matters.

Subject: RE: BS: Car lights during daylight hours???????
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 30 Jun 18 - 07:32 AM

It is wierd, what I call Sheep Syndrome - one driver starts and many more blindly follow.

Likewise in Surrey, clear sky and very bright sunlight. I'm just off to the local garden centre to buy a new hose to bring some life back into our roses, I shall count the number of cars with lights on!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Car lights during daylight hours???????
From: Stanron
Date: 30 Jun 18 - 07:20 AM

I'd not noticed before reading this thread but this morning, 10 a.m. a clear sky and very bright sunlight, and every other car coming towards me had its side lights on. Kind of weird.

Subject: RE: BS: Car lights during daylight hours???????
From: Mr Red
Date: 30 Jun 18 - 05:19 AM

a Rangerover ad from the 90s was proud to say:

"always on fog lamps" - as if we always have fog!

Headlights on a lot of modern cars are brighter to the point of glare. Many people are reporting it. They also have a more blue in the spectrum, which at night is guaranteed to appear brighter and swamp the rods which are better in low light eg moonlight - which has more blue than you think. We will need a few million years of evolution to adapt to these new road hazards.

Subject: RE: BS: Car lights during daylight hours???????
From: Iains
Date: 30 Jun 18 - 03:05 AM

One problem is that daylight running lights mean different things to different people:
1)sidelights
2)Dipped beam
3)purpose designed LED strips(on modern cars in EU)

A slight tongue in cheek summary pro/con.

http://nordicgroup.us/drl/

Subject: RE: BS: Car lights during daylight hours???????
From: BobL
Date: 30 Jun 18 - 03:01 AM

Depends, among other things, on the height of the sun. I always turned headlights on (didn't have daytime running lamps) if I could see the my car's shadow in front, as I figured oncoming drivers would have the sun in their eyes. But I have to agree with Bonzo that headlights aren't quite so necessary when the sun is high in the sky.

Subject: RE: BS: Car lights during daylight hours???????
From: meself
Date: 30 Jun 18 - 02:51 AM

It's for safety, and from anything I've read, it works - and my own experience tells me it works. My mind is open, though - if anyone can cite a study that shows the day-time lights do not improve safety, let us know.

Subject: RE: BS: Car lights during daylight hours???????
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 30 Jun 18 - 02:12 AM

For the past couple of weeks in the south of England it has been "summer", blue skies, temperatures up to 30c and very bright. And yet many motorists still have headlights on, some even on full beam. B for bad!

Subject: RE: BS: Car lights during daylight hours???????
From: robomatic
Date: 30 Jun 18 - 01:31 AM

In the States the states do the driving regulations. For motorcycles in many if not all U.S. states it has been required for over a generation to have headlight and taillight on.

For cars, in some states and in particular Alaska, cars are required to shine their headlights at all times for many highways. It is a good idea for the most part with the odd positions and shadows that can occur throughout the long days, and of course for the long darknesses of winter and also for dusty conditions at all times of year.

I'll bet Canada has similar rules.

Subject: RE: BS: Car lights during daylight hours???????
From: Gurney
Date: 30 Jun 18 - 12:12 AM

I don't have a problem with daytime headlamps, and particularly when the cars are dark grey or black, and it is raining.

I have sometimes had problems with bycyclists who have very bright LED flashing headlamps aimed specifically into the motorists eyes. I see one regularly. Maybe always the same twat.

Joe, a cyclist was killed near here doing just what you said, head down downhill, flat tack, couldn't stop, ran into a near-stationary car, over the top at maximum speed, dead.
They don't seem to realise that a driver may be unsighted by parked cars, even if the cyclist can see the car roof.

Subject: RE: BS: Car lights during daylight hours???????
From: Joe Offer
Date: 29 Jun 18 - 11:03 PM

I'm on a three-mile hill that is very popular with bicyclists. They struggle up the hill, then coast down silently like a bat outa hell. I have a really hard time seeing them when I'm walking across the road to get the mail, and I can't imagine they can stop. I've had a few close calls. I'm glad bicycles are starting to have running lights or strobes. The cars are hard to see, too - but they're much more likely to have running lights (and brakes).
-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Car lights during daylight hours???????
From: Joe_F
Date: 29 Jun 18 - 09:20 PM

My experience is that it makes cars much more visible to me (a pedestrian).

Subject: RE: BS: Car lights during daylight hours???????
From: Kenny B (inactive)
Date: 29 Jun 18 - 03:23 PM

I find that the xenon lights rather than LED headlight on BMWs seem to be the main dazzle culprits , sample taken before LED headlight were as common on A road and m roads, doesn't same to be the same prob on B roads, maybe regular B road users are more conscious pf dazzle probs

Subject: RE: BS: Car lights during daylight hours???????
From: Tattie Bogle
Date: 29 Jun 18 - 02:11 PM

First encountered them in Canada in a hire car we booked in 1995: my husband spent ages trying to switch them off, before going to the car hire attendant to ask him how to do it. Very patient man rolls his eyes and says, oh, so politely "They are your daytime driving lights, sir"!
In fact, out on the open road in Canada there are very long stretches of completely straight road so you can see oncoming traffic from a very long way off with these lights on.

And now, 20 years on, my current car in the UK (Korean make) has daytime driving lights. They are NOT sidelights,headlights or fog-lights, but completely separate LED strips, and should not/do not dazzle anyone. There is also a facility to have the side/headlights come on "automatically" if it's a wee bit dark, when you switch the engine on, but I don't use that setting in case they do come on when not really needed and upset you other road-users.

As I said on another thread, I am more upset by cyclists dazzling me with their flashing lights, and motorists with poorly maintained/aligned headlights (one off, and one up in the air!)

Subject: RE: BS: Car lights during daylight hours???????
From: Raggytash
Date: 29 Jun 18 - 02:08 PM

One benefit of cars that turn their lights on automatically is that you get fewer drivers driving without lights after dark, which I would suggest is a greater problem.

I have owned 2 Volvo's and 2 Saab's all of which automatically put light on all the time. The car I have now switches it's own lights on when the light available falls below a certain level.

I don't find that cars having lights on during the daytime a problem, even if they are badly adjusted, a far different story at night though.

Subject: RE: BS: Car lights during daylight hours???????
From: Raedwulf
Date: 29 Jun 18 - 01:40 PM

Kenny - maybe have a PM with Joe / one of the elves? The "Make a link" below the reply box always works for me, so I can't imagine what might be wrong. Following Iain's (IainS' ?!) link, I see both

Numerous studies done worldwide since the 1970s have tended to conclude that daytime running lights improve safety
&
The safety benefit produced by DRLs in relatively dark Nordic countries is roughly triple the benefit observed in relatively bright America.

I think that demonstrates the point about low-light conditions. And the point is you can forget to turn your lights off, you can forget to turn your lights on. But which is the more significant? Pending what Don might have to say, I suspect that DRLs are more good than bad, if not unequivocally so...

Subject: RE: BS: Car lights during daylight hours???????
From: Senoufou
Date: 29 Jun 18 - 01:15 PM

I do feel for motorcyclists, they're so very vulnerable.

My old driving instructor once told me he witnessed the most terrible accident. A car pulled out in front of a motorcyclist, and he was flung in the air and decapitated. The head with the helmet on flew up and rolled away. Horrific. He had dreadful nightmares for months afterwards.

Subject: RE: BS: Car lights during daylight hours???????
From: Kenny B (inactive)
Date: 29 Jun 18 - 01:08 PM

Raedwulf
I cant seem to get blue clickies to work these days
My link is very similar to Iains but gives the history of Daylight lights Googling "Dagen H"
Dagen H (H day), today usually called "Högertrafikomläggningen was the day on 3 September 1967, in which the traffic in Sweden switched from RHD to LHD

Subject: RE: BS: Car lights during daylight hours???????
From: EBarnacle
Date: 29 Jun 18 - 12:43 PM

In New Jersey and many [I don't know whether it's all] other states, the requirement is that if your wipers are on, your lights are on. visibility is the issue. That said, I have noticed that the number of people driving with lights on in daylight is increasing. I have also noticed that many people neglect to turn their lights on in damp conditions.

Subject: RE: BS: Car lights during daylight hours???????
From: Raedwulf
Date: 29 Jun 18 - 12:38 PM

Default setting is not full beam, Sen. Height of vehicle can make a difference. I've flashed a 4x4 before, thinking they were on full beam (they certainly were making my life difficult!)… and they've flashed me back to show that they weren't! Also, headlights can go out of adjustment (I believe it's part of the MOT) which can cause the same problem / misunderstanding.

Subject: RE: BS: Car lights during daylight hours???????
From: Iains
Date: 29 Jun 18 - 12:21 PM

I would have thought any oncoming light would make a driver pay attention. The argument proposed by motorcyclists seems a total fallacy to me.
In Ireland so many cars have defective lights you cannot be sure if it is a bike or a car until it is nearly on top of you.

From 2013: "Gardai have announced a major crackdown on defective lighting after it emerged that one in five cars on the road is failing the NCT because it is not properly lit up."

I cannot say I have noticed any significant change in the last 5 years.

Subject: RE: BS: Car lights during daylight hours???????
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 29 Jun 18 - 12:20 PM

It should not be on full beam, Sen. If they are, they are doing it wrong!

Subject: RE: BS: Car lights during daylight hours???????
From: Senoufou
Date: 29 Jun 18 - 12:15 PM

I understand that people on motor bikes need to be visible (and some motorists don't notice them and pull out at junctions in front of them) but why have their headlight on full beam? It can be quite blinding even in daylight. Dipped would do.

Subject: RE: BS: Car lights during daylight hours???????
From: Raedwulf
Date: 29 Jun 18 - 12:14 PM

Kenny - sorry, but I'm getting a 404 from your link. Try again?

Don - Dunno what you're referring to (if it's Kenny's link, see above!). An increase from 6 to 10 is a double digit increase in percentage terms. An increase from 100,000 to 100,010 is also a double digit increase, and equally insignificant in practical terms. Could you clarify, please, sir? And also bear in mind, there is a flip side to the point you wanted to make - if daytime collisions have increased due to daytime running lights, how much (using similar terms of reference) have low-light collisions decreased for the same reason? If we've 100 more daytime collisions, but 150 less low-light collisions... Is that good enough for you? It is for me. ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Car lights during daylight hours???????
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 29 Jun 18 - 11:31 AM

Motor cyclists do it to improve their visibility, and say that cars doing it too detracts from that.

Subject: RE: BS: Car lights during daylight hours???????
From: Iains
Date: 29 Jun 18 - 10:52 AM

First mandated in Sweden. I think they are a good idea as most people forget that they are not to enable the driver to see but for others to clearly see his vehicle. A lot of people seem to be reluctant to turn on lights in poor weather conditions or dusk. Wide roads, narrow roads, it matters not a hoot. As their purpose is merely to indicate their presence there should be tighter control of how many lumens they output.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daytime_running_lamp#Nordic_countries

Subject: RE: BS: Car lights during daylight hours???????
From: leeneia
Date: 29 Jun 18 - 10:33 AM

In 1994 I visited Iceland for the first time and realized how much it helped for all the cars there to have their lights on at all times.

Now the DH and I always drive with lights on, and appreciate it when others do too. In snow, rain or fog, when a small, bland car is hidden behind a big one, when a dark car is emerging from deep shade...

And as Rap mentioned, heat waves.

Subject: RE: BS: Car lights during daylight hours???????
From: Donuel
Date: 29 Jun 18 - 09:40 AM

A double digit decrease in daytime collisions due to day lights is good enough for me.

Subject: RE: BS: Car lights during daylight hours???????
From: Kenny B (inactive)
Date: 29 Jun 18 - 09:38 AM

For those interested

"History Stats and who to blame"

---

Link Fixed. It was dyslexic..... -Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: BS: Car lights during daylight hours???????
From: Raedwulf
Date: 29 Jun 18 - 09:32 AM

Inded they do, Sen. Volvo do it as standard. You have to actively turn them off. On some cars it's sidelights, rather than headlights. It's a safety thing & it's a good idea. They're hardly "blazing away" (especially if it's sidelights), but they do make a considerable difference to how visible you are in poor lighting conditions such as dawn, dusk, a heavy thunderstorm, etc. As Dave says, if it saves one accident... A lot of people don't realise how much their visibility can fall.

Subject: RE: BS: Car lights during daylight hours???????
From: Rapparee
Date: 29 Jun 18 - 09:24 AM

Here in the wide open spaces it's essential, especially when people DON'T turn on their lights in rain, snow, fog, etc. But also people who drive a white car across a desert often blend into the background as if that were snow until they are right on top of you. Heat waves distort the view as you watch out ahead.

Put the lights on all the time! Newer cars here have "daylight running lights" as a default setting; my only complaint is that they don't also turn on tail lights.

Subject: RE: BS: Car lights during daylight hours???????
From: Jeri
Date: 29 Jun 18 - 09:11 AM

We do it because it improves visibility. Supposedly.
As Steve pointed out, Volvo just assumes you want them on. So does Subaru. In New York State, it's the law that you have to turn your headlights on at the first drop of rain. Or it was, at least, and may be in other states as well.

If you don't have a car that automatically turns your lights off when you turn off the car, it can be a problem.

(And in my case, my mechanic usually turns them off, and I don't always notice.)

Subject: RE: BS: Car lights during daylight hours???????
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 29 Jun 18 - 08:58 AM

If it helps to prevent one single accident, it is worth it.

If it causes road rage in others, they need to consider their fitness to be behind a wheel!

Just my 2p