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BS: missing boys found in Thailand cave

Iains 02 Jul 18 - 03:10 PM
keberoxu 02 Jul 18 - 03:15 PM
Kenny B (inactive) 02 Jul 18 - 03:32 PM
fat B****rd 02 Jul 18 - 03:36 PM
Bonzo3legs 02 Jul 18 - 03:48 PM
Charley Noble 02 Jul 18 - 05:18 PM
Stilly River Sage 02 Jul 18 - 11:26 PM
Jim Carroll 03 Jul 18 - 03:26 AM
Keith A of Hertford 03 Jul 18 - 04:22 AM
Senoufou 03 Jul 18 - 04:35 AM
Keith A of Hertford 03 Jul 18 - 04:41 AM
Iains 03 Jul 18 - 05:29 AM
keberoxu 03 Jul 18 - 11:51 AM
Senoufou 03 Jul 18 - 12:13 PM
keberoxu 03 Jul 18 - 12:38 PM
Jos 03 Jul 18 - 12:40 PM
mg 03 Jul 18 - 04:36 PM
mg 03 Jul 18 - 10:13 PM
Jos 04 Jul 18 - 02:54 AM
Iains 04 Jul 18 - 04:15 AM
mg 05 Jul 18 - 03:34 AM
keberoxu 05 Jul 18 - 03:10 PM
mg 05 Jul 18 - 04:00 PM
Iains 06 Jul 18 - 03:54 AM
vectis 06 Jul 18 - 05:45 AM
Backwoodsman 06 Jul 18 - 06:12 AM
Donuel 06 Jul 18 - 06:57 AM
mg 06 Jul 18 - 04:01 PM
Iains 06 Jul 18 - 05:22 PM
mg 06 Jul 18 - 06:17 PM
Iains 06 Jul 18 - 06:29 PM
Donuel 06 Jul 18 - 08:01 PM
Keith A of Hertford 07 Jul 18 - 03:58 AM
Donuel 07 Jul 18 - 07:32 AM
Keith A of Hertford 07 Jul 18 - 08:47 AM
meself 07 Jul 18 - 02:20 PM
meself 07 Jul 18 - 02:20 PM
mg 07 Jul 18 - 07:21 PM
Jeri 07 Jul 18 - 07:38 PM
Jeri 07 Jul 18 - 09:30 PM
Iains 08 Jul 18 - 03:31 AM
Senoufou 08 Jul 18 - 09:39 AM
Senoufou 08 Jul 18 - 10:13 AM
keberoxu 08 Jul 18 - 04:46 PM
mg 08 Jul 18 - 05:58 PM
keberoxu 08 Jul 18 - 06:18 PM
Jos 08 Jul 18 - 06:28 PM
mg 08 Jul 18 - 07:04 PM
Jeri 08 Jul 18 - 08:37 PM
Senoufou 09 Jul 18 - 03:11 AM

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Subject: BS: missing boys found
From: Iains
Date: 02 Jul 18 - 03:10 PM

Some good news!
All 12 boys and their football coach have been found alive after nine days missing in caves in Thailand.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-44688909


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Subject: RE: BS: missing boys found
From: keberoxu
Date: 02 Jul 18 - 03:15 PM

Their poor families ! What an ordeal for their loved ones.


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Subject: RE: BS: missing boys found
From: Kenny B (inactive)
Date: 02 Jul 18 - 03:32 PM

Great news after a long search


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Subject: RE: BS: missing boys found
From: fat B****rd
Date: 02 Jul 18 - 03:36 PM

Excellent !! Some positive news for a change.


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Subject: RE: BS: missing boys found
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 02 Jul 18 - 03:48 PM

great news


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Subject: RE: BS: missing boys found
From: Charley Noble
Date: 02 Jul 18 - 05:18 PM

Some good news is acceptable!


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Subject: RE: BS: missing boys found
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 02 Jul 18 - 11:26 PM

They will have to be patient and resourceful, the way out isn't easy, it's how the divers reached them, as I understand.


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Subject: RE: BS: missing boys found in Thailand cave
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Jul 18 - 03:26 AM

Fantastic
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: missing boys found in Thailand cave
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 Jul 18 - 04:22 AM

What an ordeal for them. Ten days in total darkness with no food, and it may take months to get them out.


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Subject: RE: BS: missing boys found in Thailand cave
From: Senoufou
Date: 03 Jul 18 - 04:35 AM

It reminds me of those poor Chilean miners trapped underground.

Do you suppose these boys and their teacher will be sent food via some divers? They can't survive much longer without sustenance. They looked so terribly thin in the video on TV last night.

I did hear that they're trying to pump the water out of the cavern. But surely that's not going to be effective?


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Subject: RE: BS: missing boys found in Thailand cave
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 Jul 18 - 04:41 AM

They can get supplies in, but maybe not the boys out until after the monsoon season.


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Subject: RE: BS: missing boys found in Thailand cave
From: Iains
Date: 03 Jul 18 - 05:29 AM

Unless they get a lucky break with a weather window they may be trapped for up to 4 months. If they have to cave dive to escape they will have way more courage than me. Underwater helicopter escape simulations leave me white knuckled and shaking. Possibly heli lifting a rig in with compressors could be an option. Air drilling is fast in the right rock, but this could still take weeks.

I hope they get to surface soon.


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Subject: RE: BS: missing boys found in Thailand cave
From: keberoxu
Date: 03 Jul 18 - 11:51 AM

What a predicament.
It sounds like what happened up to this point
is but the prelude to the real drama:
is it possible for the victims to get out alive and in one piece.


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Subject: RE: BS: missing boys found in Thailand cave
From: Senoufou
Date: 03 Jul 18 - 12:13 PM

None of the boys can swim. The way out is tortuous and the water is murky. They're saying it would be far too dangerous for the lads to try and guide them out wearing diving kit.
I can't imagine what their school was thinking of. Why take boys there in the first place? It's the start of the monsoon, and obviously no-one did a risk-assessment.
Their poor families.


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Subject: RE: BS: missing boys found in Thailand cave
From: keberoxu
Date: 03 Jul 18 - 12:38 PM

And what was this about
this occasion not being their first visit --
that they had been in these caves before?

If that is the case,
sounds like too much
was taken for granted this time.


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Subject: RE: BS: missing boys found in Thailand cave
From: Jos
Date: 03 Jul 18 - 12:40 PM

It seems having them dive to get out would involve them swimming several miles underwater, so if they can't already swim that sounds impossible, but they are taking them food (small amounts at first as a large meal after ten days without would make them very ill) and they are planning to take them enough rations to last for four months. As long as the monsoon doesn't make the water rise higher they may survive. Keep pumping.


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Subject: RE: BS: missing boys found in Thailand cave
From: mg
Date: 03 Jul 18 - 04:36 PM

how did the thai seals get in? miles underwater? would there be one of those machines you hang onto and provides propulsion and be led one at a time by a team of seals..


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Subject: RE: BS: missing boys found in Thailand cave
From: mg
Date: 03 Jul 18 - 10:13 PM

I wonder if there is a tranquilizer that would make them go limp and not panic and they could be towed by a strong swimmer. They are young and slender.


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Subject: RE: BS: missing boys found in Thailand cave
From: Jos
Date: 04 Jul 18 - 02:54 AM

Reported details keep changing. This morning the distance underwater was said to be about a kilometre rather than the several miles I heard earlier. Still a long way, though, for someone who is not used to swimming at all.


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Subject: RE: BS: missing boys found in Thailand cave
From: Iains
Date: 04 Jul 18 - 04:15 AM

The way I understand it the boys are 1/2 mile down and 2 1/2 miles into the cave system. Part of the route out is flooded, the extent dependent on local rainfall. There are 4 separate flooded areas, one of which is so restricted air tanks cannot be worn and have to be removed and dragged. There is also the velocity of the water to be contended with and suspended clay obscuring visibility. There also seems to be a degree of uncertainty as to how severe flooding events are, this impacts the security of the boy's present location. Having found the boys alive and well is fantastic news but there are some difficult decisions ahead before they can be safely extracted. The lack of both diving and swimming experience, poor visibility and constrictions would make the dive option exceedingly dangerous for all involved.
It really is the ultimate nightmare for the kids, their families and those attempting the rescue.
May the rain hold off until they are rescued.


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Subject: RE: BS: missing boys found in Thailand cave
From: mg
Date: 05 Jul 18 - 03:34 AM

https://www.overtons.com/modperl/product/details.cgi?pdesc=Sea-Doo-SeaScooter-Pro&i=314029&CAWELAID=120030620000050581&s_kwcid=adwords__&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIq6js7reH3AIV1LrACh2dVQk3EAQYASABEgJZ7vD_BwE

propulsion unit

something like this. teaching them to dive and leaving them there for months does not sound great. you just don't know how cave will fill. they have pumped a huge amount of water out of the entrance to the cave so the journey will be shortened. they can walk out part of it. why would the seals not have something like a propulsion unit in the places where the tunnels were not totally filled with water? you might break a few but they have roped off the route and put all sorts of oxygen tanks in place. each boy would have two navy seals. i would expect some would have to be tranquilized somehow and towed out. some government official i guess said the group would not be split up..but has backtracked. never make announcements like that. save whom you can as quickly as you can. it might be the smallest or it might be the strongest.
\


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Subject: RE: BS: missing boys found in Thailand cave
From: keberoxu
Date: 05 Jul 18 - 03:10 PM

The latest CNN summary discloses that
the rescuers require
six hours to arrive where the victims are,
and five hours to get back.

And these are the fit, fed, healthy ones.

The coach is one of those being reported, amongst the victims,
as being one of the more exhausted and malnourished,
along with "two of the boys" (CNN).

It may be imagined that the coach went without food
so that the boys could go on eating longer.
I cannot begin to imagine
that coach's emotions, mind, and spirit,
not to speak of his bodily woes.

What a drama this has become.


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Subject: RE: BS: missing boys found in Thailand cave
From: mg
Date: 05 Jul 18 - 04:00 PM

there are so many conflicting stories. I have read they got in in 90 minutes. And they do not have to go as far now that a section has been drained enough to talk out..or towed if necessary. I also read they got out faster because currents were in there favor, although most reports talk about currents as being an obstacle. Olan Musk???? who has the boring expertise has offered assistance. Bad rains and more flooding predicted, although they are sealing up entrances for water. I think they will get at least some out in new two days. Once a couple are out, the rest should go quickly, even if on some sort of water stretcher.


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Subject: RE: BS: missing boys found in Thailand cave
From: Iains
Date: 06 Jul 18 - 03:54 AM

A reasonably comprehensive outline of the situation, constantly being updated:


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tham_Luang_cave_rescue


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Subject: RE: BS: missing boys found in Thailand cave
From: vectis
Date: 06 Jul 18 - 05:45 AM

The chances of getting them out by teaching them swimming/diving will have to be a last resort. I am an experienced swimmer with a little diving experience but I don't think I could make that swim. Muddy water, rocks and narrows, fast currents and all happening in the dark? would you do it?

As a non-swimmer and a child that has no concept of what will happen if you do panic I reckon there is next to zero chance of them or the accompanying divers getting through alive.

I hope I'm wrong but it could lead to a lot more deaths if I am right.

If they can get the water level low enough so that any swims/floats are minimal and in wider tunnels them maybe it will be worth a shot.


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Subject: RE: BS: missing boys found in Thailand cave
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 06 Jul 18 - 06:12 AM

Just reported on BBC News that one of the divers in the rescue team has been killed, due to running out of air during a dive in the cave.

Very, very sad, and these brave people who risk, and sometimes lose, their lives to save others cannot be praised too highly.


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Subject: RE: BS: missing boys found in Thailand cave
From: Donuel
Date: 06 Jul 18 - 06:57 AM

vectis
predicted this. This is what this sensationalized story was dreading/hoping for.

Save children from ambitious Coaches.


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Subject: RE: BS: missing boys found in Thailand cave
From: mg
Date: 06 Jul 18 - 04:01 PM

it is odd he ran out of air because supposedly he was one of the ones carrying in the air tanks. Don't know what happened. One problem is that visibility is very poor and they can't see gauges etc..Are there radios that work down there?

Some cultural things to consider. I am very generalizing because I do not know their specific tribal culture/s. From working with other people from SE Asia, especially children, there is a great fear of ghosts. If one were to die before rescue, what would they do with the body? I would hope that they have body bags in place and could somehow put the body in a recess somewhere perhaps.

One thing is we seem to be thinking one diver has to swim six miles underwater against raging currents. Or with raging currents pushing him/her. I have no doubt that conditions are in places totally awful, but is it that way the entire way? Kilometers and miles are interchanged in these reports, sometimes in the same article. I am under the impression it is more like 3.5 miles, which would be closer to 6 miles. They also have cleared out the entrance part up to a huge cavern called ???? 3. They could get the boys to that point and let them rest, eat, get medical care, get used to light etc., barring flash floods etc.

The other thing is, there are probably over 100 divers there. They would not all have to make the entire journey. And perhaps there are places where other divers could be stationed..hopefully the part where divers have to take off their equipment, and boys passed from hand to hand.If first divers were not exhausted yet, they could return for another child.

Some divers will be better at the tight spaces. Bruno and Brunhilde might be better fighting the currents. I don't know but I think every able-minded person on the planet would be welcome to think about this. And I would never underestimate the brilliance of a North Vietnamese (and presumably Thai people) with a few bamboo sticks.

Now..Elon Musk...has the expertise, the engineers and the equipment. It might not need the sort of equipment to drill subway tunnels. If you could safely drill and reinforce the rock above that most low, downward sloping, totally filled with water place you would eliminate a huge problem. I hope every miner in the world is looking at this. Don't know where they would be able to share their expertise though.

One more cultural thing...smaller developing countries understandably have a preference for rescuing their own people with their own equipment...especially countries where saving face is a high priority. I do not know if that is the case or not. You never know what problems and successes other countries would bring to the picture...but it did take several days to take Elon Musk up on his offer..I am not sure they have accepted or not..regardless, I hope he positioned his men/women and equipment fairly close by...

I just still can't see leaving them for 4 months...oxygen levels are at 15% with all the people helping sucking up the oxygen. they say you lose function at 16%.

What would I do, being a backseat diver?
Set up relay teams. Set up a makeshift hospital in Cavern 3 or whatever they call it. Tranquilize the boys and make them go limp and loose and let the divers mold them around corners etc. Do the other stuff they are doing..trying to keep water out and keep draining...don't know.


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Subject: RE: BS: missing boys found in Thailand cave
From: Iains
Date: 06 Jul 18 - 05:22 PM

I am surprised the drilling option is not being pursued, unless the cave surveys are too unreliable to give a target. A dozer and ripper could create equipment pads for drilling quite rapidly, logging teams could take down trees for a clear flight path in and out and the show could get on the road.(A dozer and 360 can achieve amazing feats on slopes even in jungles) I worked for a while on helirigs in Borneo back in the 70's. A chinook or skycrane has way more lift capacity than we ever had, and we were going far deeper than is required for the rescue. A small hole for supplies could be driven in a couple of days.
A 30 or 36 inch cased hole for extraction would take take longer, especially if the ground is extensively fractured. It is also assuming there is no perched water table, that if breached, would possibly compound the existing problems.

I hope the rain holds off and the pumping redoubles. A couple of sumps to traverse instead of long underwater sections would reduce the risks dramatically for an extraction the same route they entered.


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Subject: RE: BS: missing boys found in Thailand cave
From: mg
Date: 06 Jul 18 - 06:17 PM

https://www.news.com.au/world/asia/frantic-rescuers-battle-against-time-to-free-thai-schoolboys-from-from-cave/news-story/1ff527c95f877abc0f73f8907f0a4eea

https://www.news.com.au/world/asia/frantic-rescuers-battle-against-time-to-free-thai-schoolboys-from-from-cave/news-story/1ff527

Here is what I mean. look at slide called race against floods at the place it says narrow passage. if you could dig a tunnel above the water right there, you would have a much easier time. don't know if it is possible, what the rock is. why have we not heard from geologists? mining engineers? I am sure they are discussing this somewhere but why isn't cooper anderson or someone interviewing them? Maybe he and I do not have a TV so I can't say for sure.

Some of the reports are using outdated information so it would be good if there was a very good fact checker somewhere. And I wish they would get a different spokesman than the governor.


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Subject: RE: BS: missing boys found in Thailand cave
From: Iains
Date: 06 Jul 18 - 06:29 PM

The people onsite are looking at surface caves, dolines and openings above the suspected position of the trapped boys. That suggests a karst landscape. i.e.limestone. Limestone can be hard or soft and contain varying amounts of clay or silt. Cave systems only develop in limestones, and to a far lesser extent in dolomite, marble, and gypsum. They are solutional features.


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Subject: RE: BS: missing boys found in Thailand cave
From: Donuel
Date: 06 Jul 18 - 08:01 PM

It would have to go 1/2 mile down, precisely.


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Subject: RE: BS: missing boys found in Thailand cave
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Jul 18 - 03:58 AM

t is odd he ran out of air because supposedly he was one of the ones carrying in the air tanks. Don't know what happened.

He was on the return journey, but it does not explain how he could run out of air without taking action. It has been suggested that he collapsed from exhaustion. It is a stark reminder of how difficult it will be to get child non-divers out that way.


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Subject: RE: BS: missing boys found in Thailand cave
From: Donuel
Date: 07 Jul 18 - 07:32 AM

Are rebreather devices an alternative to air tanks? It has to work for 15 minutes.


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Subject: RE: BS: missing boys found in Thailand cave
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Jul 18 - 08:47 AM

They would be an extra complication. better to just supply more air bottles.


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Subject: RE: BS: missing boys found in Thailand cave
From: meself
Date: 07 Jul 18 - 02:20 PM

I wonder which kids will get back to their parents first: the ones in the cave or the ones in the cages?


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Subject: RE: BS: missing boys found in Thailand cave
From: meself
Date: 07 Jul 18 - 02:20 PM

I wonder which kids will get back to their parents first: the ones in the cave or the ones in the cages?


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Subject: RE: BS: missing boys found in Thailand cave
From: mg
Date: 07 Jul 18 - 07:21 PM

it sounds like the rescue might be underway now.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IPflqlhLRcA

thai kids singing


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Subject: RE: BS: missing boys found in Thailand cave
From: Jeri
Date: 07 Jul 18 - 07:38 PM

MG's link is to a Thai kids' chorus singing the Steve Earle song "Galway Girl". I don't know what it has to do with the kids trapped in a cave. I can't find anything about something happening now.


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Subject: RE: BS: missing boys found in Thailand cave
From: Jeri
Date: 07 Jul 18 - 09:30 PM

Having just watched a story on ABC News. it seems like something has changed. The entrance to the caves is draped with material, and the press has been pushed back. It's raining there again, and more water is not needed.


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Subject: RE: BS: missing boys found in Thailand cave
From: Iains
Date: 08 Jul 18 - 03:31 AM

I suspect the authorities have decided that now is the best opportunity to extract the boys in the light of anticipated rains.
An Australian diving doctor(anaesthetist)has joined the rescue team.
I hope the outcome will be a complete success.

"At 10am local time 18 divers went into the cave to bring out the boys – including 13 international divers and five Thai navy Seals..
Water levels have dropped significantly since Saturday, and officials say that they are now at “peak readiness”.


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Subject: RE: BS: missing boys found in Thailand cave
From: Senoufou
Date: 08 Jul 18 - 09:39 AM

BBC reports that six boys are now above ground, two taken away in an ambulance. Praying that this ends well and they all get out and are safe, including their rescuers.


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Subject: RE: BS: missing boys found in Thailand cave
From: Senoufou
Date: 08 Jul 18 - 10:13 AM

The BBC TV News channel is saying four boys are out. And they've stopped operations for 10 hours, so that the diving teams can regroup and prepare for the next push.

It must be terrible for those still left in the cave, having to wait, and also feeling very nervous about the journey to the outside.
Hope the lads in the ambulances are OK.


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Subject: RE: BS: missing boys found in Thailand cave
From: keberoxu
Date: 08 Jul 18 - 04:46 PM

The first successful piece of the rescue is on all the news media:
CNN, Reuters, and so on.

A report in the Washington Post,
which absolutely refuses all my efforts to link,
says that
the group of four boys
got a quick checking-over near the site,
then went by helicopter to a hospital near Chiang Rai
where the hospital has reserved
one entire floor for the entire group of thirteen
(twelve boys, one coach).

It may take a while, though,
before the next group can be extracted from undergraound.


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Subject: RE: BS: missing boys found in Thailand cave
From: mg
Date: 08 Jul 18 - 05:58 PM

New York times says coach is one of the four out. Perth now says boys went in on their own and coach went into find them..but then why would he apologize? Wish they could have kept going. I wonder about governor.leader. does he have rescue experience? Indians stand by with big tube to crawl through.


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Subject: RE: BS: missing boys found in Thailand cave
From: keberoxu
Date: 08 Jul 18 - 06:18 PM

The BBC News website, after correcting its rescued-victims number from six to four persons,
maintains that the four who were brought out
were team members, boys,
while the coach remains below with the other eight.

Also from BBC news,
while the four are all at the same hospital,
some were rushed by helicopter
while one, perhaps two, were driven overland by ambulance.


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Subject: RE: BS: missing boys found in Thailand cave
From: Jos
Date: 08 Jul 18 - 06:28 PM

I suspect they would bring out the smallest / weakest / most vulnerable boys first (not the coach - he will probably be last, whether or not he went in to find them).


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Subject: RE: BS: missing boys found in Thailand cave
From: mg
Date: 08 Jul 18 - 07:04 PM

Unless coach in very bad shape. Demoralizing for boys.


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Subject: RE: BS: missing boys found in Thailand cave
From: Jeri
Date: 08 Jul 18 - 08:37 PM

The report I saw said they brought the strongest boys out first. Not sure why, but I think it makes sense for the coach to stay inside for now. Also, the apology might have nothing to do with how this happened. Just an adult second-guessing himself.


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Subject: RE: BS: missing boys found in Thailand cave
From: Senoufou
Date: 09 Jul 18 - 03:11 AM

I'm hoping that today they'll manage to get another group out safely.
The longer this goes on, the more likely that the monsoon rains will cause awful problems.
Wouldn't it be wonderful if they announce they're all out by the end of today?


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