BS: Salad Days - whence came this phrase?

Subject: BS: Salad Days - whence came this phrase?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 08 Jul 18 - 09:57 PM

Sometimes one hears the phrase "salad days", as in days of past glory or leisure or whatever it might be.

When and where did this phrase first become popularized and why is it "salad" days? Does anyone know? Discuss!

Subject: RE: BS: Salad Days - whence came this phrase?
From: Rapparee
Date: 08 Jul 18 - 10:35 PM

I know from whence it comes. I shall the happy to discuss whether or not anyone else knows. Of course, anyone could check Wikipedia and find out from whence it came, but anyone probably won't. So, being a nice, helpful sort of person I will suggest reading (or seeing performed) Billy Shakespeare's hit play Antony and Cleopatra.

Subject: RE: BS: Salad Days - whence came this phrase?
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 08 Jul 18 - 11:27 PM

Salad greens are early spring garden crops that are only available for a month or so before it gets too hot. Then salad days give way to tomato and zucchini days.

Of course, modern-day agriculture and refrigerated transport have made everything available at any time, so any days are salad days.

Subject: RE: BS: Salad Days - whence came this phrase?
From: meself
Date: 09 Jul 18 - 12:01 AM

'In my salad days, when I was green with something-something' quoth Cleopatra - Line something; Act something, Scene something.

Subject: RE: BS: Salad Days - whence came this phrase?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Jul 18 - 02:18 AM

From 'The Insect that Stole Butter' - Oxford Dictionary of word origins
(everyone should have this entertaining book)
Jim Carroll

SALAD [Late Middle English] One of many words that go back to Latin sal ‘salt. The root implies that it was the dressing or seasoning that originally characterized a salad, and not the vegetables. The expression your salad days, 'the time when you are young and inexperienced’, is one of Shakespeare’s inventions, occurring in Antony and Cleopatra. The idea behind the phrase becomes clearer when you read the full line spoken by Cleopatra: ‘My salad days, When I was green in judgement'. Shakespeare used the word salad in a play on ‘green, which is still used today in the sense 'inexperienced or naive’. The expression was made better known by the success of Julian Slade’s 1956 musical Salad Days about some students starting out in the adult world.

Subject: RE: BS: Salad Days - whence came this phrase?
From: JennieG
Date: 09 Jul 18 - 02:53 AM

This could even turn into a musical thread....."Salad Days"

Subject: RE: BS: Salad Days - whence came this phrase?
From: Iains
Date: 09 Jul 18 - 03:14 AM

The etymology of the phrase 'salad days.'

"Disclaims Cleopatra: “My salad days, When I was green in judgment: cold in blood, To say as I said then!”

"In that earliest airing, “salad days” indicated a distant time of youthful naïveté. The descriptor “green in judgment” explains the curious phrase’s meaning: salads are green, and “green” is often used in the English language to denote someone who is inexperienced (e.g., greenhorn), hence the play on words. Salads are also cold, hence the further tying of “cold in blood” back to the phrase."

"Over time, the meaning of the phrase has moved away from being foolish because of a lack of experience and into a quick way of identifying a time in a person’s life when he was full of vim and vigor. The “foolish” component of “salad days” has dropped away, leaving only the “young” aspect in play. “Salad days” now also describes being at the peak of one’s abilities, which just goes to show how much a phrase’s meaning can change, if you wait long enough."

Subject: RE: BS: Salad Days - whence came this phrase?
From: Senoufou
Date: 09 Jul 18 - 03:15 AM

'My salad days when I was green in judgment, cold in blood...'

Subject: RE: BS: Salad Days - whence came this phrase?
From: Gutcher
Date: 09 Jul 18 - 03:10 PM

With apologise to the OP.

Any comments on the pre Willie Shakespear anomaly in English law which gave rise to the saying "A/The Merry Widow".

Subject: RE: BS: Salad Days - whence came this phrase?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 09 Jul 18 - 03:55 PM

Lovely! Now, see how much fun that was for people, Rapparee? I could, as you say, just have looked it up in Wikipedia, but instead I decided to provide an opportunity for people here to expound on the subject, and expound they did, most satisfactorily. I can well recall my salad days, and I'm sure you can recall yours.

Subject: RE: BS: Salad Days - whence came this phrase?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 Jul 18 - 07:00 PM

Why should we allow this thread to lettuce get bogged down? Just move on, for cress sake!

Subject: RE: BS: Salad Days - whence came this phrase?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 Jul 18 - 07:49 PM

Then there's the dog days. I always thought they were from July 3 to August 10, but when I looked it up I found that there are many opinions on the precise dates!

Subject: RE: BS: Salad Days - whence came this phrase?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 Jul 18 - 08:20 PM

Then there's the halcyon days. All to do, originally, with the kingfisher, or halcyon. You might have to wait for winter for the halcyon days.

Subject: RE: BS: Salad Days - whence came this phrase?
From: Rapparee
Date: 09 Jul 18 - 09:54 PM

Then there are good days and bad days but no mediocre days. And all sorts of days, including (but not limited to) rogation days, Christmas days, New Year's Days, Birth days, Coronation days, Judgement days, and all sorts of days. Even a Doris day, when we celebrate my old neighbor, Doris Walton. There's St. Swithin's day, St. Crispin's day, and who knows what all!

Subject: RE: BS: Salad Days - whence came this phrase?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 09 Jul 18 - 11:50 PM

Also, there are the Days of Wine and Roses.

Subject: RE: BS: Salad Days - whence came this phrase?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 Jul 18 - 02:38 AM

And the good old days. And the bidets.

Subject: RE: BS: Salad Days - whence came this phrase?
From: Jos
Date: 10 Jul 18 - 02:55 AM

Heydays?

Subject: RE: BS: Salad Days - whence came this phrase?
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 10 Jul 18 - 03:14 AM

Days of Wine and Roses is Ernest Dowson (not J P Miller who borrowed it).


They are not long, the days of wine and roses:
Out of a misty dream
Our path emerges for a while, then closes
Within a dream.

Subject: RE: BS: Salad Days - whence came this phrase?
From: Senoufou
Date: 10 Jul 18 - 03:14 AM

I adore that song 'These Days' by Rudimental. Jess Glynn has the most amazing rich voice. Makes me tearful every time I hear it!

Subject: RE: BS: Salad Days - whence came this phrase?
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 10 Jul 18 - 03:47 AM

Also, Those Were the Days.


Ok, I'll get my coat.

Subject: RE: BS: Salad Days - whence came this phrase?
From: Will Fly
Date: 10 Jul 18 - 03:59 AM

Don't forget pay days...

Subject: RE: BS: Salad Days - whence came this phrase?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 Jul 18 - 09:48 AM

Thank you for the days
Those endless days, those sacred days you gave me
I'm thinking of the days
I won't forget a single day, believe me…

Subject: RE: BS: Salad Days - whence came this phrase?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 Jul 18 - 09:51 AM

And what about those those lazy-hazy-crazy days of summer? Haven't enjoyed weather like this since '76! Don't wanna do nuffink, just like then!

Subject: RE: BS: Salad Days - whence came this phrase?
From: keberoxu
Date: 10 Jul 18 - 11:07 AM

Ach, Gawd,
you had to remind me of Nat "King" Cole
singing:

"Just fill your baskets
full of sandwiches and weenies . . ."

Subject: RE: BS: Salad Days - whence came this phrase?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 10 Jul 18 - 11:57 AM

Day by Day...Day by Day...Oh, dear Lord, three things Shane prays...


More weed!

More beer!

More smokes!

And then there's the loose women. And Pizza.

Subject: RE: BS: Salad Days - whence came this phrase?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Jul 18 - 07:21 PM

Day-o day-o
Daylight come and me wanna go home.
Day me say day me say day me say day me say day me say day-o
day light come and me wanna go home
work all night on a drink of rum
day light come and me wanna go home
stack banana till the morning come
day light come and me wanna go home
Come mister tally man tally me Banana.
Day light come and me wanna go home.

Subject: RE: BS: Salad Days - whence came this phrase?
From: Senoufou
Date: 12 Jul 18 - 03:08 AM

A beautiful bunch of ripe banana
Daylight come etc
Hide de deadly black TARANTULA!
Daylight come etc.

Every time I buy bananas I think of that line of the song!

Subject: RE: BS: Salad Days - whence came this phrase?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 Jul 18 - 04:53 AM

Summer days, drifting away...

Subject: RE: BS: Salad Days - whence came this phrase?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 Jul 18 - 12:01 PM

Every dog has its day. Carpe diem! Day of reckoning, judgement day, Independence Day, VE Day, the Day Of The Jackal. "Every day" every time, never "on a daily basis"!

Subject: RE: BS: Salad Days - whence came this phrase?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 12 Jul 18 - 02:05 PM

"At the end of the day..."

Subject: RE: BS: Salad Days - whence came this phrase?
From: gillymor
Date: 12 Jul 18 - 03:28 PM

One Good Day

Subject: RE: BS: Salad Days - whence came this phrase?
From: JennieG
Date: 12 Jul 18 - 08:57 PM

When you come to the end of a perfect day......

Subject: RE: BS: Salad Days - whence came this phrase?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Jul 18 - 08:12 AM

At the end of the day
Just kneel and say
Thank you Lord for my work and play
I tried to be good
As I know I should
That's a prayer for the end of the day

That's the way Radio Luxembourg finished its nightly English transmission as I listened secretly under the bedclothes on my tranny. I hasten to add that I dot NOT share the sentiment of that soupy song!

Subject: RE: BS: Salad Days - whence came this phrase?
From: Senoufou
Date: 13 Jul 18 - 08:25 AM

Oh I remember that Steve! Sung by Steve Conway. I loved Radio Luxembourg.

Do you remember Horace Batchelor, spelling out K-E-Y-N-S-H-A-M in his advert? Very irritating after the hundredth time!

Subject: RE: BS: Salad Days - whence came this phrase?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Jul 18 - 10:31 AM

We have occasion to go around Bristol quite often and every time one of us sees the sign to Keynsham we say "Oh, look, Keynsham! That's K-E-Y-N-S-H-A-M!" We never miss!

We always wondered why Horace had to work so hard to recruit people to his magical pools method. Why didn't he just do the pools using his own system and get very rich?!

I seem to remember that Luxembourg was on 208 medium wave, and if the weather was wrong it faded slowly out and slowly back in again about once every two minutes, usually when you were trying to pick up the words of your favourite song...

Subject: RE: BS: Salad Days - whence came this phrase?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 13 Jul 18 - 11:47 AM

Like the one about the girls in the back seat, and Fred? (Ha! Ha!)

Subject: RE: BS: Salad Days - whence came this phrase?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Jul 18 - 01:18 PM

Nah, that was well before my Radio Luxembourg days. There's no way I'd be listening to the wireless under the bedsheets at the age of seven or eight. I know I'm very advanced, but not that advanced!

Subject: RE: BS: Salad Days - whence came this phrase?
From: Amos
Date: 13 Jul 18 - 02:01 PM

I am partial to the days of Sun, and the days of Thor, and the days of Saturn.

None of which are salad days.

Subject: RE: BS: Salad Days - whence came this phrase?
From: Senoufou
Date: 13 Jul 18 - 02:53 PM

My dad built our wireless himself. It had valves which needed to heat up before any sound came out of it. And once turned off, it continued to play for a bit, then faded away.
Those were the 'days'!

Subject: RE: BS: Salad Days - whence came this phrase?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 13 Jul 18 - 03:16 PM

We thought they'd never end.

Subject: RE: BS: Salad Days - whence came this phrase?
From: Senoufou
Date: 13 Jul 18 - 03:29 PM

In the fifties we used to have excellent salads during the summer.

I was always in charge of doing the hard-boiled eggs, and shelling them, then slicing them up.

We always had home-grown lettuce, tomatoes, radishes, spring onions, grated carrot, beetroot and diced potatoes.

My mother would open a tin of sardines, or horrible ghastly spam (ugh)
and the entire lot was drenched in Heinz salad cream.

All this with a slice of Hovis bread and butter and a glass of milk.

Very nutritious!

Subject: RE: BS: Salad Days - whence came this phrase?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Jul 18 - 04:04 PM

We are having a tricolore salad this evening - that's cherry tomatoes halved, sliced avocado and torn-up mozzarella drizzled with olive oil and sprinkled with fresh basil and freshly-ground black pepper. Naturally, we'll be drinking Italian wine, as that salad contains the three colours of the Italian flag. I drink wine only on days of the week that contain the letter D. Tonight it's Negroamaro from Puglia. Salad days, halcyon days, dog days l, the Cornish heatwave continues and I ain't doin' nuffink tonight except for eating a cooling tricolore and drinking Mediterranean sunshine in a glass!

Subject: RE: BS: Salad Days - whence came this phrase?
From: Senoufou
Date: 13 Jul 18 - 04:19 PM

Mmmmmmmmm! Sounds delicious Steve!

Husband is doing one of his Spicy Horrors (Sweet chilli chicken thighs from Tesco, but with added Scotch bonnets, chopped tomatoes, onions, garlic, peanut butter, a Maggi stock cube, a huge pile of salt and two tablespoons of vegetable oil.)
It smells horrible and the cats are coughing!
He's doing basmati rice to go with it.
Bless him, at least he does his own cooking, and leaves the kitchen tidy and spotless afterwards!

Subject: RE: BS: Salad Days - whence came this phrase?
From: Jos
Date: 13 Jul 18 - 04:48 PM

" that salad contains the three colours of the Italian flag "

along with the flags of Hungary, Bulgaria, Algeria, Burundi, the Maldives, the Basque country ...
Lots of other food possibilities there.

Reminds me of Teresa May talking about a 'red, white and blue brexit' - was that 'red white and blue' for France, the Netherlands, Russia, the USA, Thailand, the Czech Republic, Australia, Chile, Costa Rica, Cuba, Panama ... ?

Subject: RE: BS: Salad Days - whence came this phrase?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Jul 18 - 05:38 PM

Very true, Jos. In fact, Italians don't really value avocados at all. Damn good grub though nonetheless! The quality of the tomatoes is paramount, as with the olive oil. Though it costs a tenner a bottle, I reckon that M&S Tuscan extra virgin is as good as it gets, and a bottle does last a long time as long as you use summat else for cooking. As for the avos, it's always chancy. A lot of the ripe-and-readies are no such thing...And a hunk of Galbani Maxi mozzarella does the trick for two people.

Subject: RE: BS: Salad Days - whence came this phrase?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Jul 18 - 05:40 PM

Take it from me, and/or from your husband, Eliza, if you're chopping up a fresh chilli and you don't cough, it isn't a decent chilli!

Subject: RE: BS: Salad Days - whence came this phrase?
From: Senoufou
Date: 13 Jul 18 - 06:10 PM

He doesn't chop them up Steve. He throws three or four (!) into the pan once the stock is added, then when they're soft, he mashes them up with a fork to get the maximum oomph out of the blasted things.

It's while the Horror is cooking that a pungent orange steam is emitted.
The cats and I evacuate the kitchen.

I forgot to include the tablespoonful of Sharwood's curry powder he bungs in as well.

Honestly, he must have asbestos insides.

Subject: RE: BS: Salad Days - whence came this phrase?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Jul 18 - 06:26 PM

That is precisely my kind of grub by the sound of it. Man up, Eliza!


Oops...

Subject: RE: BS: Salad Days - whence came this phrase?
From: Senoufou
Date: 13 Jul 18 - 06:56 PM

Hahaha Steve! Actually I'm quite proud of his cooking skills.
Not many Ivorian men would be seen dead cooking a meal.
And no-one could say his dishes lack flavour.
But I swear if you put a tiny bit of his food in your mouth you'd need an ambulance!
He loves visiting the Asian stores in Norwich to get lots of different spices and he seems to know what they are.

I like the sound of your tricolore salad though.

Subject: RE: BS: Salad Days - whence came this phrase?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Jul 18 - 07:06 PM

It's dead good, I promise, but don't even think of using cheap bulk Moroccan cherry toms. A big dish of that, with a mozzarella maxi, two avos and half a pound of the best cherry toms you can get your hands on, is a full meal for two.

Subject: RE: BS: Salad Days - whence came this phrase?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 13 Jul 18 - 07:34 PM

Dead good. Yes. I love the British slang use of the word "dead" when it is used to emphasize things. It's dead brilliant! (very brilliant) You can say that your "mate" (your friend or co-worker) is "dead stupid", for example. This means he's "thick as a brick", to put it another way. It really conveys the idea powerfully. You can't BE more stupid than "dead stupid". I imagine you could even say that someone is "dead lively" to mean not that he is one of the living dead, but that he has an unusual amount of vitality. Vim and vigor, as it were.    I hope so, anyway. It's a dead useful expression, if you ask me.

Subject: RE: BS: Salad Days - whence came this phrase?
From: JennieG
Date: 13 Jul 18 - 09:23 PM

"Dead good" is ~almost~ venturing into tautology territory......yes?

Subject: RE: BS: Salad Days - whence came this phrase?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 Jul 18 - 05:02 AM

Dead centre. Dead reckoning. And why is a door nail the deadest thing of all?

Subject: RE: BS: Salad Days - whence came this phrase?
From: keberoxu
Date: 14 Jul 18 - 11:41 AM

And in New England,
the phrase is "wicked."

As in, overheard a year ago in a fast-food restaurant:
"Last weekend was WICKED bo-ring."

Subject: RE: BS: Salad Days - whence came this phrase?
From: Senoufou
Date: 14 Jul 18 - 01:30 PM

In the London area, one says "Well good!" (as in "Lee Nelson's 'well good show. Qualiteee innit?"

So one can have 'He's well loaded." or "They were well scared." etc.

I absolutely love Lee Nelson. He's on Youtube.

Subject: RE: BS: Salad Days - whence came this phrase?
From: JennieG
Date: 14 Jul 18 - 07:09 PM

A "dead" door nail is a nail which can't be pulled out and used again (as was often done), because it was bent over when hammered in.

Dead door nails were around in the middle ages, and have been around ever since.

Subject: RE: BS: Salad Days - whence came this phrase?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 14 Jul 18 - 07:19 PM

They're even deader if the head gets knocked off.

Subject: RE: BS: Salad Days - whence came this phrase?
From: JennieG
Date: 14 Jul 18 - 10:29 PM

They would indeed. A headless nail is not much use to man or beast.

Just ask anyone who has been beheaded.....