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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 4 From: GUEST Date: 23 Aug 18 - 07:42 PM Hi, I bought a house and have to fix it up in the next two weeks. I've already been working on it for two weeks, we will resume with Child 13 about then or maybe sooner. TY for all the help and I'll be looking forward to Child 13. Richie |
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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 4 From: Richie Date: 06 Aug 18 - 11:25 AM Hi, Here are the British, Italian, Swedish, German versions of Child 12 " Lord Randal" that I've just put on my site. I'm missing just a few. If there are any versions that you don't see on there please post the title and artist and I'll include. L'Avvelenato- Camillo "il Bianchino" (Verona) 1629 Broadside Lord Ronald, My Son- (Ayr) 1793 R. Burns, Child F Randall, My Son- Parsons (Suffolk) 1775 Child S Die Schlangenkochin- (Ger) 1802 Clemens Brentano's "Godwi" Lord Randal- anon (Selk) 1803 W. Scott; Child D Lairde Rowlande- Philodice (Perth) 1804; Child E Lord Randal- W. Laidlaw (Selk) c.1805; Child T Lord Randal- Charles Mackie (Edin) 1808; Child A Billy, My Son- (Suf) 1814 Jamieson, Child G Den Lillas Testamente- (Sweden) 1816 Erik Geijer Lord Randle- John Clare (Northamp) c.1818 Wee Croodin' Doo- Henry Broadwood (Sus) c.1820 JFSS Wee Croodlin Dow- Maxwell (Renf) c.1820 Child J Wee Toorin Dow- (Scot) c.1820 Pitcairn MS; Child R Lord Randal- anon (Scot) 1825 Cunningham Croodlin' Doo- (Scot) 1826 Chambers; Child K Lord Donald- Comie (Aber) 1827 Kinloch; Child B King Henry- Margaret Bain (Perth) c.1827 Child C Wee Cruidland Dou- N. Orr (Renf) c1827 Crawfurd Willie Doo- (N. Scot) 1828 Buchan; Child L Wee Croudlin Doo- (Edin) c.1828 J. Burton; Child N My Wee Crooding Doo- Archibald (Rox) 1830 Child U Jacky, My Son- Adams (Dev) c.1830; Child Ple buost ti neithiwr- Davies (Aberystwyth) 1831 Lord Ronald My Son- Webster (Kells) c1833; Child P Own Pretty Boy- (Irish) 1836 Mary Boddington Den Lillas Testamente (Sweden) 1837 Arwidsson Die Schlangenkochin- (Hessen, N. Germany) 1838 King Henry, My Son- Robert Lattimer (Cum) c.1840 The Croodlin Doo- Tytler (Edin) c.1840 Child O Stiefmutter- anon (Germany) 1844 Johann L. Uhland Lord Randal- Robertson (N. Scot) 1845; Child Q Lairde Rowlande- (Scot) 1849 Halliwell, Child E My Dear Son- Davies (Wales) c.1856 G. Davies Schlangenköchin- anon (Wilsnack) 1856 Ludwig Erk King Henry, My Son- Margaret Scott (Cum) c.1860 The Croodin Doo- Findlay (Fife) c.1865; Child L'Avvelenato- anon (Como) 1867 Giovanni B. Bolza My Own Pretty Boy- Healy (Kerry) 1868 Child H The Croodin Doo- Lockhart (Berw) 1870 Child M L'Amante Avvenato- (Lucchese) 1879 G. Giannini Lord Ronald- Cruickshank (Aber) 1881 Carpenter Lord Ronald- Willie Mathieson(Aber) 1890 Carpenter Rendal, My Son- Mrs. Hooper (Som) 1904 Sharp A Henery, My Son- Mrs. Perry (Som) 1904 Sharp B Henery, My Son- Pond (Som) 1904 Sharp C Rendal, My Son- Wyatt (Som) 1904 Sharp D Rendal, My Son- Brown (Som) 1904 Sharp E Henery my Son- Mrs. Bond (Camb) 1904 Sharp MS Rendel, my fair one- C. Hill (Som) 1904 Sharp MS Own Darling Boy- Miss Brown (Dor) 1905 Hammond Lord Ronald- B. Alexander (Aber) 1905 Greig G Song of the Eel- Old Rogers (Ros) 1905 Hyde My Darling Boy- Henry Welsh (Dor) 1906 Hammond Lord Rendal- Grace Coles (Som) 1906 Sharp MS L'Avvelenato- anon (Pisa) 1906, D'Ancona A Lord Ronald- Margaret Gillespie(Aber) 1906 Greig F Lord Donald- Bell Roberston (Aber) 1906 Grieg J Henery, my son- Mrs. Pike (Som) 1906 Sharp MS Three Drops of Poison- Kemp (Surry) 1907 My Own Darling Boy- Gulliver (Hamp) 1907 Gardiner Rendal, My Son- Mrs. Hunt (Dor) 1907 Hammond Lord Ronald- anon (Aber) c.1907 Greig I Henry, My Son- James Brown (Aber) 1907 Greig A Lord Ronald- Alexander Robb (Aber) c.1907 Greig B Oh Mak' My Bed Easy- G Riddell (Aber) 1907 Greig C Lord Ronald- Mrs. A. Lyall (Aber) 1907 Greig D Lord Ronald- A. Grieg (Aber) 1907 Greig/Keith C The Little Wee Croodin' Doo- Cremer (Lanc) 1908 Lord Ronald- MaCrae (Lon) 1908 Broadwood JFSS Henry My Son- Jane Gulliford (Som) 1908 Sharp MS O where are you going to? Miles (Sus) 1908 VW Henry, my Son- Alice Davy (Som) 1908 Sharp MS Lord Ronald- William Ross (Aber) c.1910 Greig/Carp Lle buost ti neithiwr- (Wales) 1911 WFSS, B Ple buost ti neithiwr- Hughes (Harlech) 1911 WFSS 'Enery, my son- Kate Buchanan (Dur) 1913 Sharp MS Where Were You All Day- Cochlain (Cork) 1914 Dove andashti ieri sera?- D. Persi (It) 1915 JFSS Lord Randal- MacSweeney (Ireland) c. 1918 Henry, My Son- George Dunn (Staff) c.1920 REC Henry, My Son- C. Hole (Birm-Wales) c.1924 Henry, My Son- P. Johnson (Warw) 1926 Collinson Young Rolland- Doug Home (Aber) c.1931 Carpenter Lord Ronald- Bell Duncan (Aber) c.1931 Carpenter Lord Rondal- Jean Ironside (aber) c.1931 Carpenter Lord Ronald- Jean Barclay (Aber) c.1931 Carpenter Lord Ronald- Elsie Miln (Aber) c.1931 Carpenter Lord Ronald- girl singers (Aber) c.1931 Carpenter Lord Ronald- Mrs. J. Pirie (Banff) c1931 Carpenter Lord Randal- Mrs W Duncan (Aber) c1931 Carpenter Lord Ronald- Hector Campbell (Aber) 1931 Carpenter Lord Ronald- Jean Esselmont (Aber) 1931 Carpenter Lord Ronald- William Duncan (Aber) 1931 Carpenter Lord Ronald- Will Morrison (Aber) c1931 Carpenter Young Donald- Mrs. Cameron (aber) 1931 Carpenter Lord Ronald- Isabella Reed (Banff) 1931 Carpenter Lord Randal- Peter Christie (Aber) 1931 Carpenter Lord Ronald- Mary Robertson (Aber) 1931 Carpenter Lord Ronald- Woman singer (Banff) 1931 Carpenter Lord Randle- Jeanie Durward (Aber) 1932 Carpenter Willy Doo- anon (Scotland) 1933 Alfred Moffat Lord Ronald- Will Fyffe (Soct) 1939 Movie Lord Ronald- John M'Neill (Col) 1939 Sam Henry Henry, My Son- Sellars (Bris) 1941 Pafford Lord Ronald- J. Laurenson (Shet) 1947 S.-Shaw Lord Donald- Jeannie Robertson (Aber) 1952 REC Lord Randall- Ewan MacColl/Miller (Scot) 1951 REC Ca raibh tu ar feadh an lae? McDonagh (Gal) 1951 Lord Randal- Catriona Grant (Edin) 1953 Henderson Lord Ronald- Jimmy Stewart(Angus) 1953 Henderson Lord Randal- Martha Reid (Perth) 1955 Fleming REC Henry My Son- anon (Sus) c.1957 Mervyn Plunkett Lord Ronald- Jean Stewart (Aber) 1960 Goldstein Lord Ranald- Norman Kennedy(Aber) 1960 MacInnes Henry, my Son- Fred Jordan (Shrop) 1964 Yates The Song of the Eel- Heaney (Ireland) pre-1964 Lord Donald- Arthur Lochead (Aber) 1965 Chapbook Rundle My Son- Mary Reid (Fife) 1967 Shepheard Rundle My Son- John Stewart (Fife) 1967 Shepheard Henry, My Son- Mrs Holden (Worc) 1968 Hamer Lord Donald- Archie Webster (Fife) 1969 Shepheard Henry, My Son- George Spicer (Sus) 1973 Yates Lord Ronald- John MacDonald (Mor) 1974 Engle Lord Ronald- John MacDonald (Glas) 1975 Fullarton Lord Ronald - Betsy Whyte (Angus) 1987 REC The Wild, Wild Berry- H. Civil (Shrop) 1989 What had you for breakfast- Moran(Leit) 1954 Ennis O Fy Mab Anwyl- Eirlys/Eddis Thomas (Wales) c1954 Lord Randal- Frank Quinn (Tyrone) 1958 O'Boyle O Son, Dear Son- Kathleen Ward (Galway) c.1956 My Bonny Brown Boy- Kathleen Behan (Dub) 1956 Mab Annwyl Dy Fam- Meredydd Evans (Wales) 1954 My Own Darling Boy- Elizabeth Cronin (Cork) 1954 Buried in Kilkenny- Mary Delaney (Tip) 1977 REC Buried in Kilkenny- Paddy Reilly (Dub) c.1977 REC Henry, My Son- Frank Harte (Dub) 1967 REC What Had You For Your Dinner? McCarthy (Off) 2008 My Own Pretty Boy- Maggie Mongins (Gal) 2016 REC My Own Bonnie Boy- Ed McDonagh (Tuam) 2016 * * * * Richie |
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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 4 From: Richie Date: 06 Aug 18 - 11:05 AM Hi, Have put most of Child 12 versions on my site. I only have one version of Canadian "Le Garçon Empoisonné" from Arcadia and it's from 'Le Testament du Garçon Empoisonné ': A French 'Lord Randal' in Acadie by Robert Paquin; Folklore, Vol. 91, No. 2 (1980), pp. 157-172. Does anyone have a link or can post text of another version? Still no versions from France? Collection Bouthillier-Labrie No. 1460. Sung by M. Onsime Brideau and his wife Alvina (nee Saint-Pierre), respectively 63 and 53 years old; Saint-Ime, county Gloucester, N.B., summer 1976. 'LE TESTAMENT DU GARCON EMPOISONNE' 1. Oiiss' t'as 'te hier au soir, Honoré mon enfant? Oiiss' t'as 'te hier au soir, dit'-moi mon cher enfant? J'ai 'te courter les fill', maman rangez mon lit Car j'ai grand mal au coeur, je veux aller me coucher 2 Quoiss' t'as mangé hier au soir, Honore mon enfant? Quoiss' t'as mangé hier au soir, dit'-moi mon cher enfant? Un p'tit poisson saumure, que ma blond' m'a donne Car j'ai grand mal au coeur, je crois je m'en vas mourir 3 Quoiss' tu donn'ras ? ta mrr', Honoré mon enfant? Quoiss' tu donn'ras A ta mere', dit'-moi mon cher enfant? Ma petit' vache a lait, maman rangez mon lit Car j'ai grand mal au coeur, je veux aller me coucher 4 Quoiss' tu donn'ras? ton per', Honoré mon enfant? Quoiss' tu donn'ras? ton per', dit'-moi mon cher enfant? Ma grange et ma maison, maman rangez mon lit Car j'ai grand mal au coeur, je crois je m'en vas mourir 5 Quoiss' tu donn'ras? ton frer', Honoré mon enfant? Quoiss' tu donn'ras a ton frer', dit'-moi mon cher enfant? Mon ch'val et ma charrett', maman rangez mon lit Car j'ai grand mal au coeur, je veux aller me coucher 6 Quoiss' tu donn'ras? ta soeur, Honoré mon enfant? Quoiss' tu donn'ras? ta soeur, dit'-moi mon cher enfant? Ma petit' mont' en or, maman, rangez mon lit Car j'ai grand mal au coeur, je veux aller me coucher 7 Quoiss' tu donn'ras a ta blond', Honoré mon enfant? Quoiss' tu donn'ras Ata blond', dit'-moi mon cher enfant? Un petit bout' de cib', pour la pend' d'un arb' vert Ell' l'a bien marité, c'est ell' qui m'a empoisonné 'LORD RANDAL' 1 O what is the matter Henery my son? O what is the matter my own dearest one? I've been to my sweetheart mother make my bed soon I feel sick at the heart and fain would lie down 2 What did she give you Henery my son? O what did she give you my dearest one? She gave me golden fishes mother make my bed soon I feel sick at heart and fain would lie down 3 What will you will your mother Henery my son? What will you will your mother my own dearest one? I will you my money mother make my bed soon I feel sick at the heart and I fain would lie down 4 What will you will your father Henery my son? What will you will your father my own dearest one? I will him my land and houses mother make my bed soon I feel sick at heart and I fain would lie down 5 What will you will your sister Henery my son? What will you will your sister my own dearest one? I will her my sheep and cattle mother make my bed soon I feel sick at heart and I fain would lie down. 6 What will you will your brother Henery my son? What will you will your brother my own dearest one? I'll will him my horse and saddle mother make my bed soon I feel sick at the heart and I fain would lie down 7 What will you will your sweetheart Henery my son? What will you will your sweetheart my own dearest one? I'll will her a rope to hang herself on yonder green tree It was poison she gave me and she has[1] [betrayed] you and me. 1. Betrayed? (Creighton's note). * * * * Richie |
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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 4 From: Richie Date: 05 Aug 18 - 07:50 AM Hi Jim, My email is Richiematt7@gmail.com -- yes, Edward is next, probably on another thread. Here's the John Clare text, as originally given with a couple changes in brackets: * * * * Described as "Old Ballad of John Randall from my Father & Mothers memory with a few additions" and "my Fathers version was Lord Randall and my mothers John there was little other difference." The additions by Clare were clearly stanzas 5, 7 and 11. He made two nearly identical two copies, one with his mother's "John Randall" and the other with his father's "Lord Randle." The ballad is in three line form (1st line is not repeated): Lord Randle (Old Ballad of John Randall)- written by John Clare (b. 1793) of Northampton from his parents versions c.1818, dating back through them to the late 1700s. 1. Where have you been to Lord Randle my son A hawking & hunting mother make my bed soon Im sick at my heart & fain would ly[e] down. 2. Where's you hawk and hound then Lord Randle my son Theyre dinnerd & dead mother make my bed soon Im sick at my heart & fain would lye down. 3. What had you for dinner Lord Randle my son Eels in fresh broth mother make my bed soon, Im sick at my heart & fain would ly[e] down. 4 What color were they Lord Randall my son Their skins tehy were spotted mother make my bed soon, Im sick at my heart & fain would lye down. 5. They swam in no river- Thye basked in the sun & crawled in the hedge bottoms- O make my bed soon, Im sick at my heart mother let me lie down. 6. O then your poisoned Lord Randall my son It was my own sweetheart, mother make my bed soon, Im sick at my heart & fain would lye down. 7. My hound eat the skins & fell ere he[a]d done [down] At her door like a stranger, O make my bed soon, Im sick at my heart & fain to lye down. 8. What will you leave [mother][1] Lord Randle my son My lands and my livings mother make my bed soon, Im sick at my heart & fain would lye down. 9. What leave you your brother Lord Randle my son My coach and my horses mother make my bed soon, Im sick at my heart & I fain would lye down. 10. What leave you your sweetheart Lord Randle my son The curse of god mother O make my bed soon, For Im sick at my heart & I fain would lye down. 11. My hawk on her hand looked for friends & and found none Taking poison for kindness- O hear my will soon For Im sick sad & weary & fain would lye down. 1. has "mother" in his mother's copy. * * * * Richie |
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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 4 From: Jim Carroll Date: 05 Aug 18 - 04:10 AM "I couldn't find the Andy Cash or Pops Johnny Connors version online- are they online?" No, but if I have an e-mail address I can post them to you Have you done Edward yet ? We have an interesting take on the ballad from 'Pop's' Johnny - he calls it 'The Ballad of Cain and Abel' and links it to the origins of the Travellers Jim |
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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 4 From: Richie Date: 05 Aug 18 - 12:15 AM TY Steve and Jim, I post texts here later Jim, I couldn't find the Andy Cash or Pops Johnny Connors version online- are they online? Richie |
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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 4 From: Jim Carroll Date: 04 Aug 18 - 07:44 PM Have e-mailed you Steve Jim |
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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 4 From: Steve Gardham Date: 04 Aug 18 - 04:58 PM Jim You appear to have easy access to a scanner. Happy to share the load if you are. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 4 From: Steve Gardham Date: 04 Aug 18 - 04:57 PM All 3 despatched. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 4 From: Steve Gardham Date: 04 Aug 18 - 04:26 PM I've got the Sam Henry & John Clare covered, Jim. Probably got the Caedmon in the notes booklet as well. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 4 From: Jim Carroll Date: 04 Aug 18 - 01:42 PM Can do you all of these The Clare and Sam Henry ones come with tunes so if you want them you'll have to PM me an e-mail address The Colm McDonagh Irish language version is a recording which I can send as an attachment Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 4 From: Richie Date: 04 Aug 18 - 01:15 PM Hi Trying to finish British and other versions of Child 12. Apparently there's a version by John Clare "John Randall my son" that he learned from his father. Also need the Child 12 version from Sam Henry's Songs of the People' (G. Huntington, 1990) p. 415. One more: Colm McDonald, Folk Songs of Britain, Vol 4. The Child Ballads, I, Caedmon TC 1145, LP (1961) TY Richie |
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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 4 From: Richie Date: 02 Aug 18 - 03:37 PM Hi, Here are the other two versions from: Journal of the Welsh Folk-Song Society: Volume 2, pages 48-52 by the Welsh Folk-Song Society- 1914, (with music), the first dates back to 1831. No. 3. O fy Mab Anwyl Ple buost ti neithiwr? (Where were you last night?). "Sung by Miss Davies, Aberystwyth, January, 1911. Her mother used to sing it when a child about 80 years ago, — she had in all probability learnt it from her grandmother." — Miss Jennie Williams, Aberystwyth." "Ple buost ti neithiwr, mab anwyl dy fam? Ple buost ti neithiwr, mab anwyl dy fam?" "Pysgota fuais neithiwr, Cy weiriwch fy ngwely, 'Rwy'n glaf am calon ar fyned i'r bedd." "Where were you last night, dear son of thy mother? Where were you last night, dear son of thy mother?" "I went fishing last night, Please make my bed, I am sick and my heart is going to the grave." * * * * No. 4. O fy Mab Anwyl Ple buost ti neithiwr- Recorded by Miss Rosaleen Graves in September, 1911 from the singing of Hugh J. Hughes of Harlech who learned it from his uncle, Robert Jones of Rhosdda. 1. "Lle buost ti neithiwr, mab anwyl dy fam? Lle buost ti neithiwr, mab anwyl dy fam?" "Yn hela sgwarnogod, mam, A Ch'weiriwch fy ngwely, 'Rwy'n glaf am calon ar fyned i'r bedd." 2. "Ple buost ti neithiwr, mab anwyl dy fam? Ple buost ti neithiwr, mab anwyl dy fam?" "Pysgota mab anwyl, mam, A Ch'weiriwch fy ngwely, 'Rwy'n glaf am calon ar fyned i'r bedd." 3. "Beth gefaist ti i'w fwyta" &c, "Ces neidr, mam," &c 4. Beth yw dy glefyd, &c. Bradwriaeth, mam, &c 5. Beth roi di i dy fam, &c Rhof gortyn, mam &c * * * * 1. "Where were you yesterday, dear son of thy mother? Where were you yesterday, dear son of thy mother?" "Hunting hares, mother, Please make my bed, I am sick and my heart is going to the grave." 2. "Where were you last night, dear son of thy mother? Where were you last night, dear son of thy mother?" "I went fishing, mother, Please make my bed, I am sick and my heart is going to the grave." 3. "What did you have for food?" &c (sim.) "I had a snake, mother," &c 4. What is your fever" &c Treachery, mother &c 5. What will you give your mother? &c I will give a rope &c * * * * Richie |
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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 4 From: Richie Date: 02 Aug 18 - 02:41 PM Hi, Rhiannon at the Welsh Folk-Song Society was kind enough to send copies of the Welsh versions in Journal of the Welsh Folk-Song Society: Volume 2, pages 48-52 by the Welsh Folk-Song Society- 1914. The first version was in the Celtic Review. Here's the second (with music): No. 2. O fy Mab Anwyl Lle buost ti neithiwr- from collection of folk songs at Carmathen, Eisteddfod, 1911 1. Lle buost ti neithiwr, mab anwyl dy fam? Lle buost ti neithiwr, mab anwyl dy fam? Pysgota fuais neithiwr, O ta'nwch fy ngwely, 'Rwy'n a'm calon ar fyned i'r bedd. * * * * 1. Where wert thou last night, dear son of thy mother? Where wert thou last night, dear son of thy mother? I was fishing last night, Spread my bed, I am sick and my heart is going to the grave. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 4 From: Mick Pearce (MCP) Date: 01 Aug 18 - 03:07 PM Btw, have you seen this article Ballad implosions and Welsh folk stanzas (2001) by Prof. E. Wyn James. The book by Constantine Ballads In Wales (1999) isn't available on amazon or abebooks in uk, but there is a copy for $11 on amazonus: Ballads in Wales Mick |
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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 4 From: Mick Pearce (MCP) Date: 01 Aug 18 - 02:58 PM Richie - I can't find a version online, but google says their copies come from U.Indiana and U.California, maybe you can get a copy from one of them. Mick |
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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 4 From: Richie Date: 01 Aug 18 - 01:59 PM Hi, There are four versions of the Welsh Lord Randal, "O Fy Mab Anwyl," in Journal of the Welsh Folk-Song Society: Volume 2, pages 48-52 by the Welsh Folk-Song Society- 1914. The first is the version in Celtic Review (posted in this thread above) but the other versions I can't get and have only been able to get the notes to one version: "Sung by Miss Davies, Aberystwyth, January, 1911. Her mother used to sing it when a child about 80 years ago, — she had in all probability learnt it from her grandmother." — Miss Jennie Williams, Aberystwyth." Here's a link to the article: https://books.google.com/books?id=IFsvAQAAIAAJ&q=%22O+Fy+Mab+Anwyl,%22&dq=%22O+Fy+Mab+Anwyl,%22&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjkybeWtszc Since it's "snippet view" you can find parts of the article and texts if you know what to search for. You can pull entire versions-- as I've pulled the entire first version from there but it's a version we already have in this thread. Can anyone find a "read" version, either on Google or internet archive? Richie |
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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 4 From: Richie Date: 01 Aug 18 - 10:45 AM Hi, TY Mick and Steve, "pie some" is probably "poison" and I'll make the corrections to my version above, I have this to report on the two Broadwood versions from Cumbria titled "King Henry My Son." According to "Folk song in Cumbria" by S. Allan, 2017, "Robert Lattimer (1825-1901) and other members of his family seem to be key 'tradition bearers', in carrying forward into the twentieth century folk songs current in Carlisle in the nineteenth century." This is the exact birth date I had guessed and knew he had died before his version was published in 1907. Miss M. B. Lattimer, the transcriber of the 1907 JFSS version is Robert's younger sister (no date on her birth yet). Robert's version was learned by organist Sydney Nicholson and communicated to Miss Lattimer. I've dated this version c. 1840 since it was learned by Robert when he was a boy. The 1908 version is also given by Miss Lattimer but was taken from another source before 1868. Later, Miss Lattimer received addition text from the informant, Margaret Scott. However, the melody is the same for both. Since they are local versions, both informants could have sung the same melody but it's more likely that Lattimer's melody was used twice. Broadwood did not provide this source information. Motherwell gives a Scottish version about 1827 titled "King Henry My Son." which is Child C, Richie |
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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 4 From: Mick Pearce (MCP) Date: 31 Jul 18 - 12:00 PM Sorry that's what I meant to say Steve (after listening to the Edward McDonagh version): I'd a-me poison chicken (or even I'd (m) eat poison chicken) I think listening to these has inspired me to do a version tonight (at Kiveton); haven't time to learn one of these but I did used to sing Jeannie Robertson's Lord Donald My Son and I think I can remember that!. Mick |
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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 4 From: Steve Gardham Date: 31 Jul 18 - 10:52 AM 'PIE SOME' could be 'POISON'. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 4 From: Mick Pearce (MCP) Date: 31 Jul 18 - 10:49 AM Having just listened to the Edward McDonagh version, I think in Maggie Mongan's the phrase might be I'd a-me pie, some chicken.... Also in v2 that Wee should be Honey as in the first verse. In Edward McDonagh's there are only a few minor corrections, shown below. Mick My Own Bonnie Boy- sung by Irish traveller Edward McDonagh Where were you all day you are my own bonnie boy? Where were you all day you are my comfort and joy? I was a- fishin' and fowlin', mother dress my bed soon, I've a pain in my heart and <I> want to lie down. O what had you for <> dinner you're my own bonnie boy? What had you for <> dinner, you are my comfort and joy? I did eat poison chicken mother dress my bed soon, I've a pain in my heart and <I> want to lie down. What will you do to <YOUR> race horses, you're my own bonnie boy? What will you do to <YOUR> race horses, you are my comfort and joy, I'll give one <> them to my dada and another to my mam I've a pain in my heart and <I> want to lie down What will you do to <YOUR> two children, you're my own bonnie boy? What will you do to <YOUR> children, you are my comfort and joy I'll give one o them to my dada and another to my mam I've a pain in my heart and <I> want to lie down. <> what had you for yer dinner you're my own bonnie boy? What had you for yer dinner you are my comfort and joy? I did eat poison chicken O mother dress my bed soon, I've a pain in my heart and <I> want to lie down. What will you give your nice wife, you're my own bonnie boy? What will you give your nice wife, you are my comfort and joy? I'll give her a lang rope for to hang <HER, OH> mother dress my bed soon, I've a pain in my heart and <I> want to lie down I <HAVE> a pain in my heart and <I> want to lie down. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 4 From: Mick Pearce (MCP) Date: 31 Jul 18 - 10:32 AM Maggie Mongins corrections: I'm not sure about a mere pie, but that's what it sounds like. Perhaps someone has some idea what it might be. (meat pie?) Mick "Oh, where were you all day, <AH> my own <HONEY> boy? <AH> where were you all day, <AH> my pride and joy? I was fishing, I was <HUNTIN'>, mother dress my bed soon, I've a pain in my heart, and I want to lie down." "<OH> What <HAD> for dinner, my own <WEE> boy? What <HAD> you for dinner, <OH> my pride and joy? <I'D A MERE PIE, SOME CHICKEN>, mother, dress my bed soon, <I AM SICK TO> my heart, and I want to lie down." |
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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 4 From: Richie Date: 31 Jul 18 - 09:47 AM Hi, TY Mick. Here are two more transcripts from the links Kevin posted above. The first fragment is missing the first part of the 3rd line second stanza and the second transcript is complete: My Own Pretty Boy- sung by Irish traveller Maggie Mongins from County Galway, c. 2016. Learned from her mother. "Oh, where were you all day, ah, my own honey boy? And where were you all day, ah, my pride and joy? I was fishing, I was hunting, mother dress my bed soon, I've a pain in my heart, and I want to lie down." "What had for dinner, ah, my own honey boy? What had you for dinner,ah, my pride and joy? I'd a-me poison chicken, mother, dress my bed soon, I am sick to my heart, and I want to lie down." * * * * My Own Bonnie Boy- sung by Irish traveller Edward McDonagh of Tuam in 2016. Where were you all day you are my own bonnie boy? Where were you all day you are my comfort and joy? I was a-fishin' and fowlin', mother dress my bed soon, I've a pain in my heart and I want to lie down. O what had you for dinner you're my own bonnie boy? What had you for dinner, you are my comfort and joy? I did eat poison chicken mother dress my bed soon, I've a pain in my heart and I want to lie down. What will you do to your race horses, you're my own bonnie boy? What will you do to your race horses, you are my comfort and joy, I'll give one them to my dada and another to my mam, I've a pain in my heart and Iwant to lie down What will you do to your two children, you're my own bonnie boy? What will you do to your two children, you are my comfort and joy I'll give one o them to my dada and another to my mam, I've a pain in my heart and I want to lie down. What had you for yer dinner you're my own bonnie boy? What had you for yer dinner you are my comfort and joy? I did eat poison chicken O mother dress my bed soon, I've a pain in my heart and I want to lie down. What will you give your nice wife, you're my own bonnie boy? What will you give your nice wife, you are my comfort and joy? I'll give her a lang rope for to hang mother dress my bed soon, I've a pain in my heart and I want to lie down, I have a pain in my heart and I want to lie down. * * * * Corrections by Mick Pierce added 8-1-18. Richie |
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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 4 From: Mick Pearce (MCP) Date: 31 Jul 18 - 07:58 AM I've had a chance to listen to Mary Ward Kilconnell's version a bit more and I've got a few more changes, shown in <..> below. Also some possible alternatives, shown in {..} below. (Perhaps my worst? mishearing was devil wife for beloved wife!) Mick LORD RANDAL 1. "O son, dear son, O come tell it unto me, O where were you, this lang summer's evening?" "I went fishin an' fowlin'; <THIS LONG SUMMER'S EVENING> O MAMAW O PARDON ME" {O MAMAW=O MAM O?} 2. What had you for breakfast, my dear and my <JOY> O What had you for breakfast, my darling fine BOY O FRESH EELS AND slow poison, mama, make my bed soon, FRESH EELS AND slow poison, and I MEANT to lie down." 3. "O son, dear son, O come tell it unto me, O What will you do with yer two little children? <I'LL> give ONE to my daddy and the other to my mammy, O TO KEEP THEM COMPANY, O mamaw pardon me. 4."O son, dear son, O come tell <IT> unto me, What will ye do with your house and land?" "I will leave it THERE to the BIRDS IN THE AIR {IN=ON?} And there to mourn for me, SO MAMAW? pardon me. 5. "O son, dear son, O come tell IT UNTO ME What will you do with yer DEAR <BELOVED> WIFE I'LL GIVE TO HER THE BAG AND THE BOTTLE O TO HUNT THE COUNTERIE, O TO HUNT THE COUNTERIE {HUNT=HAUNT?} THEN MAMAW PARDON ME 6. O son, dear son, O come tell it unto me What will you do with your two gray hounds? I will take their straps ALL off their neck, AND FOR ME THEY'LL RACE NO MORE 7. O son, dear son, O come tell it unto me What will you <DO> do with your two RACE horses? I will take THE bridal off their HEAD And FOR ME THEY'LL RACE NO MORE <THEN> MAMAW O PARDON ME Source: Kathleen Ward Kilconnell |
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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 4 From: Richie Date: 31 Jul 18 - 12:11 AM Hi, This Irish traveller version uses the standard "poisoned" stanza followed by the "will" then one burial stanza (see: Behan's version above). Online profile: Thomas McCarthy was born in the town of Birr, County Offaly, in the Irish midlands into a well respected Irish Traveller family. His grandfather was known as a “seanachie” which is an Irish term for someone with a profound orally derived knowledge of the history and families of Ireland. Thomas learnt his crafts of singing and storytelling from his mother, aunts and uncles. His extended family has a long history of musicianship and includes the well-recognised and respected Doran Brothers and their grandfather “Big John Cash”, who all played the Irish uillean (elbow) pipes. Quotes: "When I was a child my grandfather Johnny McCarthy would take us off in the wagon in the summertime to County Clare and Galway. We would go visit people who played music and sang the old songs. This tradition is called cur darekin and my grandfather was always welcome and loved anywhere he went, for people who knew him as a kind, decent and caring man." "I learnt most of my songs through my mother Mary McCarthy who was a fine singer." What Had You For Your Dinner?- sung by Thomas McCarthy 1. "What had you for your dinner now my darling boy? What had you for your dinner my comfort and my joy?" I had eels and cold poison mother fix my bed soon I have a pain in my heart, and I am tae lie down. 2. "What will you leave your father now my darling boy? What will you leave your father, my comfort and my joy?" "I leave a coach and four horses, mother fix my bed soon, I have a pain in my heart, Wad I like to lie down." 3. What will you leave your father now my darling boy? What will you leave your father my comfort and my joy? I leave the keys of gold treasure, mother fix my bed soon I have a pain in my heart, Wad I like to lie down. 4. What will you leave your young wife, my darling boy? What will you leave your young wife, my comfort and my joy? I leave a long rope, for to hang her, mother fix my bed soon, I have a pain in my heart, and I'd like to lie down. 5. Where will be you be buried my own darling boy Where will be you be buried my comfort and my joy In the graveyard of Kilkenny I will take a long sleep, With a stone to my head and the scratch on my feet. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 4 From: Richie Date: 30 Jul 18 - 11:24 PM Hi, This excellent version by Frank Quinn, best known for his rendition of False Knight on the Road, uses the modern form found in Ireland and the UK in the 1900s usually with the title, "Henry My Son." Lord Randal- sung by Frank Quinn of Coalisland, Tyrone in 1958. Dub by Kennedy from Sean O'Boyle's tapes. To listen: https://sounds.bl.uk/World-and-traditional-music/Peter-Kennedy-Collection/025M-C 1 "Where have you been all day, Lord Randal, my son? Where have you been all day, my fair one?" "To see my love mother, to see my love mother So smooth my bed, I am sick at heart, That I might lie down." 2. "You look tired and pale, Lord Randal, my son? You look tired and pale, O my fair one?" "I'm poisoned mother, I'm dying mother So smooth my bed, for I'm sick at heart, That I might lie down." 3. "Who give you to eat, Lord Randal, my son? Who give you to eat, O my fair one?" "A false hearted lover, a black hearted lover So smooth my bed, for I'm sick at heart, That I might lie down." 4. "What shall I send your love when you are gone? What shall I send your love, my fair one?" "A rope from hell, mother, a rope to hang her, So smooth my bed, for I'm sick at heart, That I might lie down." 5 "What do you leave me, Lord Randal, my son? What do you leave me, O my fair one?" "My horses and carriage, my wealth and land, mother So smooth my bed, for I'm sick at heart, That I might lie down." |
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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 4 From: Richie Date: 30 Jul 18 - 05:02 PM Hi, TY Mick-- I've made the corrections to my version (above). If anyone else would like to add suggestions for further corrections, please do. Richard, no worries. I found it rather odd and amusing that an archaic Welsh version would have a sewing machine as a gift. Richie |
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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 4 From: Richard Mellish Date: 30 Jul 18 - 02:47 PM > Richard, I doubt it was a joke. There are some earlier Welsh versions that are referenced before the 1950s. I meant that perhaps it was meant as a joke when that version was first put together, whenever that was, some time after the invention of sewing machines. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 4 From: Mick Pearce (MCP) Date: 30 Jul 18 - 02:33 PM Richie - I haven't time to check this further, as I'm just on my way out, but here's my first reading of it. Mick 1. "O son, dear son, O come tell it unto me, O where were you, this lang summer's evening?" "I went fishin an' fowlin'; sister, show mercy, O MAMAW O PARDON ME" 2. What had you for breakfast, my dear and my darling (die) O What had you for breakfast, my darling fine BOY O FRESH EELS AND slow poison, mama, make my bed soon, FRESH EELS AND slow poison, and I MEANT to lie down." 3. "O son, dear son, O come tell it unto me, O What will you do with yer two little children? I will give ONE to my daddy and the other to my mammy, O TO KEEP THEM COMPANY, O mamaw pardon me. 4."O son, dear son, O come tell unto me, What will ye do with your house and land?" "I will leave it THERE to the BIRDS IN THE AIR And [tell them] there to mourn for me, SO MAMAW? pardon me. 5. "O son, dear son, O come tell IT UNTO ME What will you do with yer DEAR DEVIL WIFE I'LL GIVE TO HER THE BAG AND THE BOTTLE O TO HUNT THE COUNTERIE, O TO HUNT THE COUNTERIE THEN MAMAW PARDON ME 6. O son, dear son, O come tell it unto me What will you do with your two gray hounds? I will take their straps ALL off their neck, AND FOR ME THEY'LL RACE NO MORE 7. O son, dear son, O come tell it unto me What will you did do with your two RACE horses? I will take THE bridal off their HEAD And FOR ME THEY'LL RACE NO MORE O MAMAW O PARDON ME |
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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 4 From: Richie Date: 30 Jul 18 - 01:34 PM Hi, Here's a quick unfinished transcript of the composite: Lord Randal - Kathleen Ward Kilconnell of County Galway, Ireland May 2016 Collected by Sam Lee: songcollectors.org/tradition-beare…/kathleen-ward/1 Only the second stanza is completely Lord Randal, the other are mixed with the Edward form but still use lines from Lord Randal (i.e. "fishin' and fowlin). "O Son, Dear Son"sung by Kathleen Ward of Kilconnell, known for 60 years (c.1956). 1. "O son, dear son, O come tell it unto me, O where were you, this long summer's evening?" "I went fishin' an' fowlin'; sister, show mercy, O mamaw, O pardon me." 2. What had you for breakfast, my dear and my darling (die) What had you for breakfast, my darling fine one O fresh eels and slow poison, mama, make my bed soon, Fresh eels and slow poison, and I meant to lie down." 3. "O son, dear son, O come tell it unto me, What will you do with yer two little children? I'll give them to my daddy and the other to my mammy, O, to keep them company, O mamaw pardon me. 4."O son, dear son, O come tell it unto me, What will ye do with your house and land?" "I will leave it there to the birds in the air, And [tell them] there to mourn for me, So mamaw pardon me. 5. "O son, dear son, O come tell it unto me, What will you do with yer dear beloved wife? I'll give her the bag and the bottle, O, to hunt the counterie, O, to hunt the counterie Then mamaw pardon me. 6. O son, dear son, O come tell it unto me What will you do with your two gray hounds? I will take their straps all off of their neck, And for me they'll race no more 7. O son, dear son, O come tell it unto me What will you do with your two race horses? I will take their bridal off their head And for me they'll race no more, Then mamaw pardon me. * * * * Thanks Mick for the corrections. I only listened to it a couple times. Richie |
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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 4 From: Richie Date: 30 Jul 18 - 09:42 AM Hi Kevin, Thanks for the posts-- I fixed the Katherine Behan version. There was one stanza missing and a variant on the last line. Cleveland's "My Bonny Bon Boy" sounds like "bonny, bonny boy" although it's hard to hear the second "bonny." "Martin 'Junior' Crehan's version has no text but it's a nice fiddle rendition with a spoken description of the song. I'll ck out all the other versions today. I just went through Roud's list of 926 versions (some of them are mistakes, multiples or reprints). Roud has done a great job with his index!!! I was surprised at the number of versions collected by Sharp (over 25) in the UK. The variants are hard to sort out, but like anything you do them one at a time :) Richie |
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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 4 From: Kevin Werner Date: 30 Jul 18 - 07:11 AM One more I forgot, "Buried in Kilkenny", sung by Mary Delaney can be heard here: https://www.itma.ie/digital-library/sound/buried-in-kilkenny-delaney |
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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 4 From: Kevin Werner Date: 30 Jul 18 - 07:07 AM Sorry for posting twice, but there's another sound recording of a Gaelic Lord Randal, "Martin 'Junior' Crehan - Cá raibh tú ar Maidin" accessible here: http://www.clarelibrary.ie/eolas/coclare/music/live/annagh_CM-WC5.htm It starts at 07:50 in the recording. I'm also fairly certain that the New York singer Sara Cleveland's version has been brought over from Ireland. Her version is titled "My Bonny Bon Boy". Bon = Brown? I'm not sure. Anyways, it's a wonderful version from a great singer. There's also a couple of irish versions that were recorded from Travellers by the Song Collector's Collective: https://soundcloud.com/song-collectors/lord-randal-kathleen-ward-kilconnell Kathleen Ward's version is hoplessly confused with "Son Come Tell Unto Me", Child 13, not surprising given the similar structure of the two songs. https://soundcloud.com/song-collectors/lord-randall-kathleen-ward https://soundcloud.com/song-collectors/what-had-you-for-your-dinner https://soundcloud.com/song-collectors/maggie-mongins-2016-05-04 https://soundcloud.com/song-collectors/kathleen-explaining-the-lord https://soundcloud.com/song-collectors/edward-mcdonagh-2016-05-04-1 https://soundcloud.com/song-collectors/willie-heaney-2016-07-18-3 https://soundcloud.com/song-collectors/lord-randall-edward-mcdonagh https://soundcloud.com/song-collectors/bury-me-in-kilkenny-mother https://soundcloud.com/song-collectors/unknown-singer-mammy-make-my Oh, and Frank Quinn, the singer who gave Hamish Henderson that fine version of "The False Knight Upon The Road", also had a great version of Lord Randal: https://sounds.bl.uk/World-and-traditional-music/Peter-Kennedy-Collection/025M-C The song starts at 06:00 in the recording. It is the only Irish text I've heard so far where the dying man is actually named Randal. All the other Irish versions leave him unnamed. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 4 From: Kevin Werner Date: 30 Jul 18 - 06:24 AM Richie, here's a sound recording of Kathleen Behan's version, as recorded by Hamish Henderson: https://soundcloud.com/user-860765554/kathleen-behan-my-bonny-brown-boy Here are the booklet notes, but they tell us nothing about the singer, unfortunately. From "Hamish Henderson Collects Vol. 1" (2005): 15. MY BONNY BROWN BOY SF1956/1(A1). Roud 10. Child 12 Greig/Duncan 209. Kathleen Behan, Crumlin, Dublin. 1956. Professor Child called this Lord Randal and gives over a dozen examples. Attempts have been made in the past to try to tie this ballad to an actual event, usually to the family of Ranulf, sixth Earl of Chester (d. 1232), but as it is known in one form or other all over Europe (Italian sets are known from c. 1630) this has never been successful. Hamish Henderson believed that this ballad, 'like many Child ballads found in Ireland', was originally from Scotland. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 4 From: Richie Date: 29 Jul 18 - 10:40 PM Hi, Mr Lattimer, Broadwood's informant in 1907 was Robert Lattimer, a well-known amateur singer. From Folk Music Journal - Volume 4, Issue 4 - Page 345, 1983: Other versions of [Robert] Anderson's songs he [Sidney Nicholson] had picked up from the singing of Robert Lattimer, the best known amateur singer in Carlisle during the middle of the late nineteenth century. Lattimer was the son of a builder and contractor and ended his days, like Brown, as director of a firm. He was old enough to have seen Anderson wandering the streets of Carlisle when he was a young boy. Of the five songs in the Broadwood collection communicated by this group, three came from Nicholson alone, one came via Nicholson from the singing of Brown, and one was sent in by the Lattimer family. This is was added in the JFSS 1907: Sydney [Sidney] Nicholson has noted a number of tunes, is a great authority on Cumbrian dialect. He learnt most of his songs in boyhood from Mr. Robert Lattimer, of Carlisle, now dead. His songs here given are regularly sung by old Cumbrians. They used especially to be heard at the "Kern-suppers" which are now dying out. These took place after the last load of corn had been carried, lasted from 7 p.m. till 5 a.m., and were accompanied by much singing and dancing. The old words to the old tunes fell into disuse after Robert Anderson, the favourite Cumbrian poet, supplied the airs with verses of his own. Anderson wrote for Vauxhall Gardens, supplying James Hook, the composer, with words, in 1794 and later. Some of his songs were sung by Master Phelps in the Gardens. He issued a small volume of "Cumberland Ballads" in 1801, and a second edition a few years later. * * * * Since Robert Anderson (1770–1833), Cumbrian author, died in 1833, Lattimer must have been born around 1825. Apparently Miss M.B. Lattimer was Robert's sister [ref. Wakefield's Folk Song Competition]. Broadwood (see: https://www.vwml.org/search?q=RN10%20%20&is=1#) suggests it's "from her father's singing, he learnt it as a boy in Cumbria." It's also possible Robert's Father is also Robert-- a Robert Lattimer died in Cumbria in 1844 (who could be his father). The date of the ballad if Lattimer learned it at age 15 would be 1840. According to "folk song in cumbria" by S Allan, ?2017, Lattimer was born in 1825 the exact date I had guessed: "Robert Lattimer (1825-1901) and other members of his family seem to be key 'tradition bearers', in carrying forward into the twentieth century folk songs current in Carlisle in the nineteenth century." Richie |
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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 4 From: Richie Date: 29 Jul 18 - 08:00 PM Hi, This is Kathleen Behan's "My Bonny Brown Boy" Tocher: Tales, Songs, Tradition - Issue 43 - Page 16, 1991. I'm not sure why this isn't at School of Scottish Studies unless it's cause it is Irish. This is as much as I could get from Google Books. Is there more? A recording? Apparently Kathleen was born on September 18 1889, in 49 Capel Street, Dublin and was the mother of Brendan Francis Behan, 1923 - 1964. "My Bonny Brown Boy." Recorded by Hamish Henderson from Mrs. Kathleen Behan, Crumlin, Dublin, dated 1956. A variation of the last stanza was sung during the interview with Henderson (see footnote). "Where have you been to, my bonny brown boy? Where have you been to, my heart's love and joy?" "To the fair o Ballytober, Mother, make my bed soon, For I'm tired to the heart and I long to lie down." "What's for your dinner, my bonny brown boy? What's for your dinner, my heart's love and joy? "Cabbage and thump, Mother, make my bed soon, For I'm tired to the heart and I long to lie down." "What's for your father, my bonny brown boy? What's for your father, my heart's love and joy? A coach and six horses, Mother, make my bed soon, For I'm tired to the heart and I long to lie down." "What's for your children, my bonny brown boy? What's for your children, my heart's love and joy? Good school and education, Mother, make my bed soon, For I'm tired to the heart and I long to lie down." "Now, where will we bury you, my bonny brown boy[1]? Where will we bury you, my heart's love and joy Put a stone at me head, and a stone at me feet, And place me in Glasnevin for to take a sleep. _____________
1. "And where will we bury you, my bonny brown boy? |
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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 4 From: Richie Date: 29 Jul 18 - 05:55 PM Hi, Here are the text and notes from English Traditional Songs and Carols edited by Lucy Etheldred Broadwood, 1908 KING HENRY, MY SON (p. 96). Miss M. B. Lattimer, living in Carlisle, noted this fine air, which she learned in childhood, some time before 1868, from Margaret Scott (now Mrs. Thorburn), a young servant in her home. The singer came from Wigton, in Cumberland, and had learnt the ballad from her father, who died when she was nine years old. Miss Lattimer recollected only a part of the words, and completed the ballad from another version, giving the three verses used in the harmonised arrangement. Recently, however, Miss Lattimer has come into communication with the singer, and received from her the following interesting set of words:— KING HENRY, MY SON. "Where have you been wandering, King Henry, my son? Where have you been wandering, my pretty one?" "I've been away hunting, mother, make my bed soon. For I'm sick to the heart, and fain would lie down." "What had you to your dinner, King Henry, my son? What had you to your dinner, my pretty one t" "A dish of small fishes, mother, make my bed soon, For I'm weary, weary wandering, and fain would lie down." "What colour was the fishes, King Henry, my son? What colour was the fishes, my pretty one?" "They were black bellies and speckled bellies, mother, make my bed soon, "For I'm sick to the heart, and fain would lie down." "I'm afraid you are poisoned, King Henry, my son, I'm afraid you are poisoned, my pretty one!" "Yes, mother, I'm poisoned, make my bed soon, For I'm sick to the heart, and fain would lie down." "What will you leave your mother, King Henry, my son? What will you leave your mother, my pretty one?" "I will leave her my all— and make my bed soon, For I'm weary, weary wandering, and fain would lie down." "What will you leave your brother, King Henry, my son? What will you leave your brother, my pretty one?" "There's the best pair of horses, mother, make my bed soon, For I'm sick to the heart, and fain would lie down." "What will you leave your sweetheart, King Henry, my son? What will you leave your sweetheart, my pretty one?" "I will leave her my braces to hang her upon a tree; For the poisoning of my greyhounds, and the poisoning of me." * * * * I've only included the notes about this ballad and Miss Lattimer. The text is a composite but the information given is confusing since the melodies are the same-- I suppose it's just some mix-up, or the melodies are sung the same by two different singer (since they are from the same area and same general time they could be from the same source). Broadwood makes no mention of Miss Latimer's relationship with Mr [Robert] Lattimer-- and the fact that the same melody was given twice was not pointed out. It seems that Sydney Nicholson, the organist, learned the ballad from Robert Lattimer and communicated to Miss Lattimer who wrote it down. Richie |
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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 4 From: Richie Date: 29 Jul 18 - 05:33 PM Wow TY Kevin and Mick, You can email to Richiematt7@gmail.com if you want. Now if you or someone can explain Broadwood's two versions of "King Henry my Son" dated 1907 JFSS and 1908 English Traditional Songs and Carols, I will be grateful. They have the same melody and both are from Miss Lattimer, and are both from Cumberland however the texts are different and the ballad info is different. Two different versions? Here's the one sung by Mr. Lattimer of Carlisle learnt, very long since when he was in Cumberland, as a boy. The JFSS says "Noted by Miss Lattimer, communicated by Sydney Nicholson" but Nicholson was "organist at Carlisle Cathedral in 1905 and he turned in one or two songs from various sources" so he obviously didn't need for her to write the melody down. From: Songs from Cumberland & Northumberland by Frank Kidson, Lucy E. Broadwood, A. G. Gilchrist, Ralph Vaughan Williams, Cecil J. Sharp Journal of the Folk-Song Society, Vol. 3, No. 10 (1907), pp. 39-46 King Henry my Son "Oh, where have you been wandering, King Henery, my son, [Oh,] where have you been wandering, my pretty one?" "I've been to my sweetheart's,mother, make my bed soon, For I'm sick to the heart, and would fain lay me down." "And what did your sweetheart give you, King Henery, my son, What did your sweetheart give you, my pretty one?" "She fried me some paddocks,* mother, make my bed soon, For I'm sick at the heart, and would fain lay me down." "And what will you leave your sweetheart, King Henery, my son? What will you leave your sweetheart, my pretty one? "My garter to hang her, mother, make my bed soon, For I'm sick at the heart, and would fain lay me down! *toads * * * * A bit baffled, which is why it takes so long to go through all the variants Richie |
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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 4 From: Kevin Werner Date: 29 Jul 18 - 03:39 PM Richie, here's a sound recording of Elizabeth Cronin singing Lord Randall: https://soundcloud.com/user-860765554/elizabeth-cronin-lord-randal It's only a fragment, it seems that this was all she knew of the ballad. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 4 From: Richie Date: 29 Jul 18 - 03:37 PM Hi, This version from Publications - Volume 117 - Page 181 Folklore Society (Great Britain)- 1952, reportedly was from Wales. It's dated c. 1924 and is the standard modern UK version of "Henry my Son." The following info was supplied: The version I heard was collected from a Birmingham washerwoman exactly as she sang it, grammatical mistakes and all. She used to sing it whilst possing the clothes, and brought down the posser with a violent thump at the final curse.She told Miss Silver, who collected it from her, that she had first heard it from a man who came from Wales. I should perhaps add that this version was collected very shortly before I heard it. I enclose a copy of the verse in case you would like to see it and compare it with Mr. Pafford's version. Yours faithfully, Christina Hole [Henry My Son] 1. Where have you been all day, Henery my son? Where have you been all day, my pretty one? In the fields, dear mother, In the fields, dear mother. Make up my bed — I've a pain in my head, And I want to lie down, And I want to lie down. 2. What have you been eating, Henery my son?, etc. Eels, dear mother, etc. 3. What colour were them eels, Henery my son?, etc. Green and yaller, etc. 4. Who gave to you them eels, Henery my son?, etc. My sister, dear mother, etc. 5.What will you leave your father, Henery my son?, etc. My coach and horses, etc. 6. What will you leave your mother, Henery my son?, etc. The Keys of Heaven, etc. 7. What will leave your sister, Henery my son?, etc. My curse for ever, etc. * * * * Richie |
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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 4 From: Mick Pearce (MCP) Date: 29 Jul 18 - 03:19 PM The Elizabeth Cronin book lists just the one verse: What did you have for your breakfast, my own darling boy? What did you have for your breakfast, my comfort and joy? A cup of cold poison, mother dress my bed soon, For there's a pain through my heart and I'd want to lie down. Source: BBC 21996 (29 Aug 54)Kennedy & Lomax According to the notes this verse is the same as v2 from Healy in Child. The notes reference a another Irish version: 2v in English + 1 in Irish from Michael Cronin (brother in law) recorded by Jean Richie and George Picklow. There are also references to articles on the song in Irish. I'll scan the page for you if you'd like. Mick |
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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 4 From: Richie Date: 29 Jul 18 - 12:39 PM Hi, Richard, I doubt it was a joke. There are some earlier Welsh versions that are referenced before the 1950s. Looking for Elizabeth Cronin's text or recording (online) of Lord Rendal recorded by Seamus Ennis and other Irish or Welsh versions, TY Richie |
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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 4 From: Richard Mellish Date: 29 Jul 18 - 04:58 AM Two more small comments on the Welsh versions. One of the bits of wording in the CD booklet that didn't look right to me was "In jian I wnio". The other transcriptions of the Welsh versions tell us that it should be "injian i wnio". The word "injian" is presumably a Welsh adoption of English "engine". Besides the obvious point about dating, I wonder whether this insertion of the modern sewing machine and five pounds into a timeless story was intended as a joke, with that whole version being something of a spoof. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 4 From: Richie Date: 28 Jul 18 - 03:16 PM TY Jim, happy birthday!
Here's another Welsh version "Mab Annwyl Dy Fam" (Your mother's dear son) from Smithsonian Folkways Folkways Records FW 6835, [1954] by Meredydd Evans (source of Mary Humphreys' version?). My translation may need some improvement. Since one of the gifts is "a sewing machine" this seems like a modern adaptation (1900s). If anyone knows any other Welsh versions please post: |
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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 4 From: Jim Carroll Date: 28 Jul 18 - 01:28 PM Two versions here Jim Carroll 19(a)- "Buried in Kilkenny" (Roud 10, Child 12) Mary Delaney "What have you for your dinner now, My own darling boy? What have you for your dinner, My comfort and my joy?" "I had bread, beef and cold poison, Mother, will you dress my bed soon, I have a pain in my heart and I long to lie down." "What would you leave your mother now, My own darling boy? What would you leave your mother, My comfort and my joy?" "I leave her the keys of treasure, Mother, will you dress my bed soon, I have a pain in my heart and I’d long to lie down." "What will you leave your father now, My own darling boy? What will you leave your father, My comfort and joy?" "I will leave him a coach and four horses, Mother will you dress my bed soon, For I have a pain in my heart and I would long to lie down." "What would you leave your mother now, My own darling boy? Oh, what would you leave your mother, My comfort and my joy?" "I will leave her the keys of all treasure, Mother, dress my bed soon, I have a pain in my heart and Wouldn’t I long to lie down." What will you leave your wife now, What would you leave your wife now, My comfort and joy?" I’ll leave her the long rope for to hang her Mother, will you dress my bed soon I have a pain in my heart and I would long to lie down." "What will you leave your children, Me own darling boy? What will you leave your children, My comfort my joy?" "I’ll let them follow their mother, Will you dress my bed soon, I’ve a pain in my heart and I would long to lie down." "Then where will you now be buried now, My own darling boy? Where will you now be buried, My comfort and joy?" "I’ll be buried in Kilkenny Where I’ll take a long night’s sleep, With a stone to my head And a scraith* to my feet." [* scraith = scraw, sod of turf - Irish] Although popular in England, Scotland and America, the ballad of Lord Randal is not often found in Ireland except in fragmentary form or in the children’s version, Henry My Son. According to the collector, Tom Munnelly, it is more common among traditional singers in Irish than in English and is one of the few Child ballads to be found in the Irish language. The handful of versions found in Ireland include an 11 verse set taken down by ballad scholar, Francis James Child, from the reciting of Ellen Healy ‘as repeated to her by a young girl in ‘Lackabairn, Co Kerry, who had heard it from a young girl around 1868. A version from Conchubhar Ó Cochláin, a labourer of Ballyvourney, Co Cork, in 1914, like Paddy’s, places the action of the ballad in Kilkenny: "Where will you be buried, my own purtee boy, Where will you be buried, my true loving joy?" "In the church of Kilkenny and make my hole deep, A stone at my head and a flag to my feet, And lave me down easy and I’ll take a long sleep." We also got it from fiddle player, storyteller and singer, Martin ‘Junior’ Crehan, a farmer from Co Clare in 1992. Mary Delaney sang it to us the first time we met her, saying "You probably won’t like this one, it’s too old." Ref: The Traditional Tunes of the Child Ballads, B H Bronson, Princeton Univ Press, 1959. Other CDs: Mary Delaney - Topic TSCD 667; John MacDonald - Topic TSCD 653; Ray Driscoll - EFDSS CD 002; Frank Proffitt - Folk-Legacy CD1; George Spicer - MTCD 311-2; Jeannie Robertson, Thomas Moran, Elizabeth Cronin - Rounder CD 1775; Gordon Hall - Country Branch CBCD 095. (b) Irish Language version Amhran Na Heascainne ~ The Song Of Toe Eel (Lord Randal) Roud 10. Child 12. From interview with Joe conducted by Ewan MacColl and Peggy Seeger (circa 1965) Ewan Maccoll: "You have a version of Lord Randal Joe, I've just remembered, don't you?" Joe Heaney: "I have - a Gaelic version. I'll sing that. 1 mean, you know the story of that better than I do." "Ce raibh túi ó mhaidin, a dhearthairfn ó? Ce raibh tu ó mhaidin, a phlur na bhfear ó?" "Bhi me ag iascach 's ag foghlaeireacht, Cóirigh mo leaba dhom Ta me tinn fó mo chroi agus ligidh dhom luí." "Ceard a d'ith tu ar do dhinnear, a dhearthairfn ó? Ceard a d'ith tu ar do dhinnear, a phlur na bhfear ó?" "Ó eascainn a raibh lub uirtbi, Nimh fuinte briiite uirthi Ta me tinn fó mo chroi agus bead go deo, deo." "Ceard fhagfas tu ag do d(h)aidf, a dhearthairín ó? Ceard fhagfas tu ag do d(h)aidí, a phlur na bhfear ó?" Ó eochair mo stabia aige, Sin 's mo lair aige Ta me tinn fó mo chroi agus head go deo, deo." "Ceard fhagfas tu ag do dhearthair, a dhearthairfn ó? Ceard fhagfas tu ag do dhearthair, a phlur na bhfear ó?" "Ó eochair mo thrunc aige, Sin 's mile punt aige, Ta me tinn fó mo chroí agus bead go deo, deo." "Ceard fhagfas tú ag do mbaithrín, a dhearthairfn d? Ceard fhagfas tu ag do mhaithrm, a phlur na bhfear d?" "Da bhfagfainn saol brach aici, D'fhagfainn croí craite aici, Ta me tinn fó mo chrof, agus bead go deo, deo." "Ceard fhagfas tu ag do chleamhnaí, a dhearthairfn d? Ceard fhagfas tu ag do chleamhnaí, a phlur na bhfear ó?" "O fuacht fada agus seachran, 'S oiche ar gach bothan, Ta me tinn fó mo chroi agus bead go deo, deo. "Ceard fhagas tu ag do bhean phosta, a dhearthairm ó? Ceard fhagfas tú ag do bhean phdsta, a phlur na bhfear ó?" "Ó Ifreann mar dhuiche aici; Na Flaithis a bheith dunta uirthi Ta me tinn fó mo chroí agus bead go deo, deo." Translation "Where were you since morning dear brother? " Where were you since morning, flower of all men?" "I was fishing and fowling ~ Prepare my bed I am sick in my heart and let me lie down." "What did you eat for your dinner, dear brother? What did you eat for your dinner, flower of all men?" "A coiled eel With kneaded and mashed poison on it ~ I am sick in my heart and I will be forever." "What will you leave to your daddy, dear brother? What will you leave to your daddy, flower of all men?" "The key of my stable to him. That and my mare to him ~ I am sick in my heart and I will be forever." "What will you leave to your brother, dear brother? What will you leave to your brother, flower of all men?" "The key of my trunk to him, That and a thousand pounds to him ~ I am sick in my heart and I will be forever." "What will you leave to your dear mother, dear brother? What will you leave to your mother, flower of all men?" I would leave to her eternal life I would leave to her a tormented heart ~ I am sick in my heart and I will be forever." "What will you leave to your in-law, dear brother? What will you leave to your in-law, flower of all men?" "A long cold and wandering And every night in a different house ~ I am sick in my heart and 1 will be forever." "What will you leave to your wife, dear brother? What will you leave to your wife, flower of alt men?" "Hell to be her home And Heaven to be closed on her – I am sick in my heart and I will be forever." Lord Randal is a ballad found in English as well as many other European languages - the oldest dated version comes from Verona in 1629. Although the English language has been spoken in Ireland for almost 800 years, it is a remarkable fact that the tradition of singing narrative ballads, so prominent among English-speaking people, is hardly represented in the Irish-Language tradition at all. Lord Randal is however, a well-known exception and Irish -Language versions have been collected in many parts of Ireland. The story told concerning the song in Joe's locality is that the song was composed by the brother of a wealthy man, whose wife died and who married again a younger woman. The younger woman was not content with an older man and decided to murder him by giving him a poisoned eel to eat. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 4 From: Richie Date: 28 Jul 18 - 01:18 PM Hi, This is the 5th German translation I've done and since I don't speak German, any corrections are appreciated. I'm confused about the title, Step-mother-- since there is no step mother in the text-- is the dialogue between the child and the step-mother? Alte hoch- und niederdeutsche Volkslieder: Liedersammlung - Page 272, Johann Ludwig Uhland, 1844. "Stiefmutter." 1. Kind, wo bist du hin gewesen? Kind, sage dus mir! ,nach meiner mutter schwerer, wie we ist mir! 2. Kind, was gaben sie dir zu eßen? Kind, sage dus mir! ,eine brüe mit pseffer, wie we ist mir! 3. Kind was gaben sie dir zu trinken? Kind, sage dus mir! ,eine glas mit rotem weine, wie we ist mir! 4. Kind, was gaben sie den hunden? kind, sage dus mir! ,eine brüe mit pfeffer, wie we ist mir!“ 5. Kind, was machten denn die hunde? Kind, sage dus mir! ,ste sturben zur selben stunde, wie we ist mir! 6. Kind, was soll dein vater haben? Kind, sage dus mir! ,einen stul in dem himmel, wie we ist mir! 7. "Kind, was soll deine mutter haben? Kind, sage dus mir!" ,einen stul in der hölle, wie we ist mir! __________ From: Old High and Low German Folk Songs: Liedersammlung - Page 272 by Johann Ludwig Uhland, 1844. "Stepmother." 1. Child, where have you been? Child, tell me! At my mother's sister's (house), How we are! 2. Child, what did you eat? Child, tell me! A broth well-peppered, How we are! 3. Child what did you have to drink? Child, tell me! A glass of red wine, How we are! 4. "Child, what did you give the dogs? Child, tell me!" "A broth with pepper, How we are!" 5. "Child, what did the dogs do? Child, tell me!" "They died on the spot! How we are!" 6. Child, what should your father have? Child, tell me! A place in Heaven, How we are! 7. Child, what should your mother have? Child, tell me! A place in hell, How we are! * * * * Richie |
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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 4 From: Richie Date: 28 Jul 18 - 11:29 AM Hi, Gr8 ty Richard and Mick. I also have Joe Heaney's version from c. 1940 (Joe sang in Irish exclusively when he was young and thought in Irish- it's on the same thread as Mick's link-- but it's unattributed there) and the 1881 version posted above which has one stanza transcribed by Joyce. I just transcribed three more German versions and have 5 total, plus three Swedish and four Italian. I'm starting to sort out the versions and have this as a preliminary sketch (in approximate chronological order): A. "L'Avvelenato" (The Poisoned") dated 1629 from a fragment printed in Verona, Italy, 1656 from stanzas quoted by Lorenzo Panciatichi. a. ["L'Avvelenato"] no title given, the opening three lines of "L'Avvelenato" from a blind singer named Camillo called "il Bianchino." The lines and four introductory lines were printed in Veronese broadside dated 1629. b. ["L'Avvelenato"] no title given, from Lorenzo Panciatichi who refered to the ballad in a "Cicalata in lode della Padella e della Frittura," recited at the Crusca, September 24, 1656, and in such manner as shows that it was well known. He quotes the first question of the mother, "Dove andastù a cena," etc. To this the son answered, he says, that he had been poisoned with a roast eel: and the mother asking what the lady had cooked it in, the reply was, In the oil pot. B. "Lord Randal" ("Randle" names, "Randal, my son") standard English, c. 1775 Suffolk- Parsons; also Scottish; American. Includes variant names of Randal. Child A, S. C. "Lord Ronald (Lord Donald)." Scottish, Scots Musical Museum, 1793, No. 327, from Bums' MS. D. "Tiranti, my Son." Child I, American, includes the "Soper" versions c. 1790s but earlier. E. "Croodlin' Doo" Scottish late 1700s a. "Wee Croodin Doo" from Walter Scott vis his daughter dated late 1700s by published by Chambers in 1870. F. "Grossmutter Schlangenköchin," (Grandmother Adder-Cook), 1802 but late 1700s also "Schlangenköchin," a. "Grossmutter Schlangenköchin." From oral transmission in Maria's [Clem. Brentano's] novel "Godwi. Bremen, 1802." B. 2, p. b. "Grossmutter Schlangenköchin." 1802 Knaben Wunderhern c. "Die Schlangenköchin," from Hessen, N. Germany, published in 1838 by Kretzschmer in From: Deutsche Volkslieder mit ihren Original-Weisen. Reprinted many times including Broadwood, JFSS. d. "Schlangenköchin" from the neighborhood of Wilsnack, Brandenburg, from Deutscher Liederhort by Ludwig Christian Erk, 1856. G. "Den Lillas Testamente" Swedish, dated late 1700s, early 1800s H. "My Pretty Boy" Irish, then American c. 1836 a. "Oh, where were you all day?" single stanza from "Poems" by Mary Boddington, 1836, p. 313. I. "Tif fy mab anwyl " (My Dear Son) Welsh c. 1856 a. "My Dear Son" Mrs. John Davies of Liverpool, who had heard it sung at Talysarn, Carnarvonshire, nearly half a century ago, by her eldest sister. J. "Amhrán na hEascainne" (Song of the Eel) Gaelic early date 1868 sung in Gaelic only a. [no title ] Dr. Hyde informs from taken down in 1881 from a woman named Ellen Healy, who learned it from a Kerry girl in 1868 publish in "Eriu" 1907. b. "Amhrán na hEascainne" (Song of the Eel) sung by Joe Heaney dated. c. 1940 K. "Henry, my son" ("Henery, my Son") modern c. 1900s variants Irish, English dated 1904 Sharp, 1926 Collinson. * * * * So I have A-K so far. I know there are other foreign version but Italy, Germany and Sweden have multiple versions so I'm limiting the scope to a few variants from these country. Suggestions welcome, Richie |
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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 4 From: Mick Pearce (MCP) Date: 28 Jul 18 - 06:30 AM Mary Humphreys posted the Welsh version back in 2003: Mab Annwyl dy Fam; it is also online with translation (not checked) Mab Annwyl dy Fam also in this publication Blodeugerdd Barddas o Gerddi Rhydd y Ddeunawfed Ganrif (needs cookies) (No.149 page 387) Mick |
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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 4 From: Richard Mellish Date: 28 Jul 18 - 04:49 AM Richie > If you can post, text/translation, that would be great. As with many of the ballads in this series of LPs/CDs, the recording is a composite of one or two verses each from several singers. Here is my transcription, as accurate as I can make it, of the relevant text in the booklet, complete with what I reckon to be mistakes. There is much to be dubious about. On the recording the first line of the verse is repeated, as shown in the booklet for the translation but not shown for the Welsh. The question mark at the end of the second line in the first quoted verse clearly ought to be at the end of the first line, as it is in the next verse. If sian, west wales gets back to us she can probably offer some corrections. -------------------------------------- Eirlys and Eddis Thomas: “Ple buost ti neithiwr, mab anwyl dy fam, Pysgota, mam anwyl, o ch'weiriwch fy ngwely?” “’Rwy’n glaf, ’rwy’n glaf, A’m calon ar fyned i’r bedd.” “Paliw oedd dy bysgod, mab anwyl dy fam?” “Rhai brithion, mam anwyl, o ch'weiriwch fy ngwely?” (Etc.) “’Rwy’n glaf, ’rwy’n glaf, A’m calon ar fyned i’r bedd.” (Etc.) Translation: “O all the night, where were you, mother’s dear son? O all the night, where were you, mother’s dear son?” “Last night I was fishing, oh make up my bed, For I’m sick, I’m sick, And my heart’s on the brink of the grave.” “And what color were the fish, mother’s dear son?” “They were speckled and sparkled . . . (Etc.) Here is the rest of story (not sung here): “And what for your father?” “Five pounds.” [Pum punt.] “And what for your sister?” "A sewing machine.” [In jian I wnio.] “And what for your mother?” “A fortune.” [Ffortiwn.] “And what for your sweetheart?” “A rope to hang her.” [Cortyn iw chrogi.] |
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Subject: RE: Origins: James Madison Carpenter- Child Ballads 4 From: Richie Date: 27 Jul 18 - 04:46 PM Hi, I was wondering if anyone knows the earliest date of "Croodin Doo"? and is it "Croodlin" or "Croodin"? I've always thought of the title as "cooing dove." Agree? Walter Scott in 1803 knew a version of it for in his notes to Lord Randal he commented, "there is a very similar song, in which, apparently to excite greater interest in the nursery, the handsome young hunter is exchanged for a little child, poisoned by a false step-mother." This version would take it back to the late 1700s or so. In 1870 Chamber's give in his Popular Rhymes of Scotland, 1870, p. 51. "Mrs. Lockhart's copy." Since Mrs. Lockhart is Sophia Scott who was Walter Scott's eldest daughter (born in 1799), could this be the same version? Scott was in Abbotsford circa 1811, his daughter would have been 12, at least. Chambers says, "This beautiful little ballad, of which the above is Mrs Lockhart's copy, as she used to sing it to her father at Abbotsford, is the same as a ballad called Grandmother Addercook, which is popular in Germany." So Chamber's concludes it's derived from the German version because of the step-mother? Comments? Richie |
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