BS: UK Labour Party and IHRA def.

Subject: BS: UK Labour Party and IHRA def.
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 Jul 18 - 04:19 AM

Simmering for years now, and lead item on BBC news today.
Labour is still refusing to accept the full document, rejecting the examples that define the usage of the definition.
Margaret Hodge MP (Labour) is to be disciplined over her protest about it.

The problem may be that accepting the definitions would expose senior people to being in breach of them.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-44919875

Subject: RE: BS: UK Labour Party and IHRA def.
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 Jul 18 - 04:27 AM

From BBC (25 mins)
"She told BBC Radio 4's Today she stood by her criticism of the Labour leader, saying: "What has happened over the last months - from failure to respond to anti-Semitism against Labour Party members, from failure to respond to the massive demonstration, unique demonstration by the Jewish community, culminating in the failure to adopt in full the universally used definition of anti-Semitism is just a bridge too far."
She insisted she would not leave the party, saying: "I am going to fight within the Labour Party - and it is terrible that in 2018 I have to do that." "

"Jewish MPs Ruth Smeeth and Louise Ellman will submit an emergency motion at Monday's Labour meeting calling for the party to amend its guidelines to include the IHRA definition.
Critics of the party's new guidelines included the chief rabbi, Ephraim Mirvis, who said Labour would be "on the wrong side" of the fight against racism unless it toughened up its stance."

Subject: RE: BS: UK Labour Party and IHRA def.
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 Jul 18 - 04:35 AM

Ignore.

Subject: RE: BS: UK Labour Party and IHRA def.
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 Jul 18 - 05:06 AM

Who are you to order people to ignore the main news story in UK today, just because you find it embarrassing?

Subject: RE: BS: UK Labour Party and IHRA def.
From: Iains
Date: 23 Jul 18 - 05:31 AM

"The IHRA definition is good enough for the government, more than 100 local authorities and 31 countries. It should have been good enough for the Labour Party"

Says it all really. Labour need to clean up their act.

Subject: RE: BS: UK Labour Party and IHRA def.
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Jul 18 - 05:39 AM

Ignored Steve
The terrorist behavior of the Israeli state and its murder of twice as many unarmed demonstrators has made clear what Labour's antisemitism is about
Antisemitism is now criticising Israel and the demonstations by thousand of Israeli Jews has made that clear how much it has to do with teh Jewish people
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: UK Labour Party and IHRA def.
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Jul 18 - 05:40 AM

"twice as many unarmed demonstrators as Sharpville" - of course
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: UK Labour Party and IHRA def.
From: Kenny B (inactive)
Date: 23 Jul 18 - 06:12 AM

Jim
A masterpiece on ignoring the thread subject and Flaming off topic

Subject: RE: BS: UK Labour Party and IHRA def.
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Jul 18 - 06:26 AM

No it isn't
Accusations of antisemitism against the Labour Party began immediately after Corbyn declared support for the Palestinian People (within weeks) and that has been a traveable issue ever since.
At no time before this has antisemitism been an issue with the Labour Party - on the contrary - they have led the fight against antiseemitism since the time Tories were forming an alternative government to take power when "Herr Hitler wins the War" -and before that - the Labour Party was formed largely by the support of Jews fleeing the European Pigroms, for crtying out loud
This has never been about The Jewish People (many of whom have said the same)
It is about smearing the Labour Party by using The Jewish People as a club.
If you want to claim that this is not what this is about - address your remarks to the millions of Jews who say it is - I know what this is about
Jim Carroll
Now the the Irish Seanad (Senate) has voted to boycott goods from the Occupied Territories, it wouldn't surprise me in the least to be told that the Irish administration is crawling with Jew Haters.

Subject: RE: BS: UK Labour Party and IHRA def.
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 Jul 18 - 07:41 AM

The topic is vexatious, Kenny, started by a vexatious poster, and after eleven posts it has already turned rancid. Perhaps you missed the previous Mudcat bouts on this non-topic that invariably turn sour. Perhaps one fine day the poster will start a thread on the rampant Islamophobia in the party he supports or the hush-hush on child abuse connived in by the Christian faith that he also supports. In the meantime, revel in his hypocrisy for a minute, then ignore. Only a suggestion.

Subject: RE: BS: UK Labour Party and IHRA def.
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 23 Jul 18 - 07:43 AM

So predictable...
Here he goes again... you only tolerate the right kind of jews who have it in for the Labour party...

ok Keith you win.. labour is evil antifa, and we should all vote "Britain First"...


I know where you get your ideas from...
I monitor their youtube channels for a grim laugh...

Subject: RE: BS: UK Labour Party and IHRA def.
From: Jack Campin
Date: 23 Jul 18 - 07:43 AM

They have accepted the bits that genuinely do relate to anti-Semitism and have dumped the attempts at pro-Israel censorship sneaked in by Zionist arm-twisting. I don't usually find much to agree with in LP policy but I don't see a problem with that.

Subject: RE: BS: UK Labour Party and IHRA def.
From: bobad
Date: 23 Jul 18 - 08:08 AM

MP Dame Margaret Hodge reportedly called Corbyn a "fucking racist and anti-Semite" to his face, when questioned about it by reporters she replied that she didn't say "fucking".........love it.

Subject: RE: BS: UK Labour Party and IHRA def.
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 Jul 18 - 08:18 AM

Margaret Hodge, her of dodgy dealings and proven incompetence over decades, is even more vexatious than Keith. Go on, look her up!

Subject: RE: BS: UK Labour Party and IHRA def.
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Jul 18 - 08:20 AM

"why not go back to the pantomime where you belong jimmie,"
Why not grow up Iains
If you have a response give it - behave as you are and it is you who will close this thread down, not me

I hate threads defending antisemitism by associating the behaviour of an extremist right wing state WITH THE JEWISH PEOPLE

"Oh yes it is"
I have offered my reasons - where are yours Kenny, I see no ships!!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: UK Labour Party and IHRA def.
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 23 Jul 18 - 08:27 AM

bob - Well she effin well should have - politics has been taken over by prim over-sensitive puritans...

I'd rather have coarse sweary down to earth honest politicians
than polite smarmy two faced treacherous back stabbers like the blairites...

Subject: RE: BS: UK Labour Party and IHRA def.
From: Kenny B (inactive)
Date: 23 Jul 18 - 08:30 AM

Jim you always see no ships in other peoples comments so whats new
For those interested in the topic :

Differences from the article quoted who is for and who is against?

The code does reproduce the International Holocaust Remembrance Alliance's "working definition" of anti-Semitism and lists behaviours likely to be regarded as anti-Semitic - but critics point out that it leaves out four examples provided by the IHRA definition:

1 Accusing Jewish people of being more loyal to Israel than their home country

2 Claiming that Israel's existence as a state is a racist endeavour

3 Requiring higher standards of behaviour from Israel than other nations
4 Comparing contemporary Israeli policies to those of the Nazis

But Labour has insisted that while the examples are not reproduced word for word, they are covered elsewhere in the new code.
Labour's code says it is "wrong" to accuse Jewish citizens of being more loyal to Israel than their own country. And it says that using Nazi comparisons in Israel-Palestine debates "carries a strong risk of being regarded as prejudicial or grossly detrimental to the party", triggering a disciplinary investigation.
Labour's code says: "The party is clear that the Jewish people have the same right to self-determination as any other people.
"To deny that right is to treat the Jewish people unequally and is therefore a form of anti-Semitism."
The code also says Israel's conduct should be assessed "against the requirements of international law or the standards of behaviour expected of democratic states" and that double standards should not be applied.
A party spokeswoman said: "The code of conduct adopts the IHRA (International Holocaust Remembrance Alliance) definition and expands on and contextualises the IHRA examples to produce robust, legally sound guidelines that a political party can apply to disciplinary cases."
Tory vice-chairman Rehman Chishti said: "Labour's failure to adopt the IHRA definition of anti-Semitic racism in full is shameful."

Subject: RE: BS: UK Labour Party and IHRA def.
From: bobad
Date: 23 Jul 18 - 08:35 AM

Non Jews rejecting what Jews define as anti-Semitism and redefining it for them.......yup folks this is actually happening in 2018 in the Labour Party of Jeremy Corbyn at a time when anti-Semitism has reached record levels in the UK and Jews are, once again, feeling unsafe in the cities of Europe.

Subject: RE: BS: UK Labour Party and IHRA def.
From: Iains
Date: 23 Jul 18 - 08:39 AM

https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/editorials/labour-party-antisemitism-jeremy-corbyn-ihra-nec-margaret-hodge-a8458896.html

Pretty much as Kenny calls it!

Subject: RE: BS: UK Labour Party and IHRA def.
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Jul 18 - 08:41 AM

Kenny
A definition that one protected the Jewish People of the kind of attacks that sent six million of them to their deaths has now been adapted politically to protect a regime from criticism - the result of this is that one third of the population of Israel is in favour of Ethnic Cleansing and the Jeewish people around the world are up in arms at being excluded from being Jews by new laws that are based on Zionist Fundamentalism - that happened last week
THIS IS THE MOST ARTICULATE ANALYSIS of so-called Laboutr antisemitism I have come across to date
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: UK Labour Party and IHRA def.
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 23 Jul 18 - 08:49 AM

Has anyone in the right wing media reported what Corbyn supporting Jews for Labour think of this new code...???

They are the folks I would most take seriously, and whose opinions I would have highest regard for.

If they are unhappy with details of the code, then there needs to be more consideration of it's drafting.

Subject: RE: BS: UK Labour Party and IHRA def.
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 Jul 18 - 09:06 AM

So why have Labour not adopted the definition and examples?
Every other party has.
Police and CPS has.
And 40 other countries.

This all comes from within the party, not outsiders.
It was the main story this morning on BBC. I did not make it so.

It is up for discussion. What is Labour's problem with this document that everyone accepted long ago?
No-one has suggested an answer.

Subject: RE: BS: UK Labour Party and IHRA def.
From: bobad
Date: 23 Jul 18 - 09:32 AM

What is Labour's problem with this document that everyone accepted long ago?

It's obvious what their problem with the definition is - which is the same problem with some posters here - it is that it exposes them as anti-Semites, which, despite their efforts to disguise it, is glaringly obvious.

Subject: RE: BS: UK Labour Party and IHRA def.
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Jul 18 - 09:33 AM

People how bowed to Israel's pressure to adopt the politicising of a perfectly simple definition antisemitism = the hatred and denigration of the Jewish People
Accusations of Antisemitism have become a weapon in the hands of an extremist regime openly co-operating with other extremist regimes - including fascist ones
Israel has much of the world over a barrel - accuse it's leadership of anything and you become an antisemite - hence the blanket of silence surrounding the mass murder of over a hundred unarmed demonstrators
That has never happened within my lifetime
If Labour has any sense it will face these accusations head on
No attacks on the Jewish people have ever been n prove - not ever
Beyond that, Labour has no case to answer, no critic of Israel has.

Common justice and common sense dictates that if an accusation is made it is up to the accuser to prove guilt, not the accused to prove innocence
Everything else is politicking bullshit
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: UK Labour Party and IHRA def.
From: Kenny B (inactive)
Date: 23 Jul 18 - 09:39 AM

Jim
if yopu had posted "The-truth-behind-the-charge-of-anti-Semitism-in-Britain" instead of the post
"From: Jim Carroll - PM Date: 23 Jul 18 - 05:39 AM "
it would have been on topic instead of the rant u posted.

You do yourself absolutely no favours by postng "hot" and leaving yourself open to possible "trolling" acusations
I would refer you to the well worn words of the
Rt Hon John Bercow MP "Calm down, calm down"

BTW "seeing no ships" is alledgedly quoted as being from when Admiral Lord Nelson had his telescope to his blind eye at the Battle of Copenhagen N'est pas

Subject: RE: BS: UK Labour Party and IHRA def.
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 Jul 18 - 09:47 AM

This thread is about ANTISEMITISM IN THE LABOUR PARTY. It was started by KEITH A. OF HERTFORD, who has a good deal of form in setting up and polluting threads with this topic, while the US moderators of this board were asleep in bed. The initiator of the thread hoped to extend its longevity by putting a set of anodyne-looking initials in the thread title instead of the far more honest word ANTISEMITISM. Please don't let this man sucker you into discussing this with him. It's a waste of time and it will serve to bring the forum into disrepute when it inevitably turns nasty.

Subject: RE: BS: UK Labour Party and IHRA def.
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 23 Jul 18 - 09:57 AM

If you're going to try to make yourself look 'clever' by using a French expression, at least make an effort to get it right, otherwise the exact opposite effect is all that's achieved.

It's "N'est-ce pas?".

Subject: RE: BS: UK Labour Party and IHRA def.
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 23 Jul 18 - 09:58 AM

Absolutely correct Steve - our resident troll has made a twat of himself yet again.

Subject: RE: BS: UK Labour Party and IHRA def.
From: Iains
Date: 23 Jul 18 - 09:58 AM

Had there not been a groundswell of opinion supporting the allegation,it would not have been picked up by the mainstream media. Trying to claim it is a poisonous assertion simply because you cannot deal with it is simply a cop out. Once again Shaw your actions speak louder than words.
You need to do a little more than jump up and down, shouting no,no,no if you wish to dispute the assertion that the labour party clearly has a problem with anti semitism.

I think we all know who has "a good deal of form in setting up and polluting threads with this topic" and it ain't Keef.

Subject: RE: BS: UK Labour Party and IHRA def.
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 Jul 18 - 10:08 AM

Pfr,
I know where you get your ideas from...
I monitor their youtube channels for a grim laugh...

I am disappointed that you would lie, presumably to discredit me, and surprised that you want to since none of this came from me.

Steve and PFR, this topic was discussed yesterday on Marr, Sunday Politics and Westminster hour, and today was the BBC lead item.
It is perfectly reasonable to raise the question here. Why will Labour not adopt the IHRA like everyone else?
What is their problem?

Subject: RE: BS: UK Labour Party and IHRA def.
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 23 Jul 18 - 10:09 AM

"Had there not been a groundswell of opinion supporting the allegation,it would not have been picked up by the mainstream media."

Come on Iains - you are not so naive to believe that..

I know from your positive posts on the Russia threads that you are far more canny, and media savvy...

But as this is another of kqueefs anti-labour threads, I can understand your opportunist tactics to join in bashing a party you firmly oppose...

That's fair enough...

Subject: RE: BS: UK Labour Party and IHRA def.
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 Jul 18 - 10:11 AM

Daily Mirror this morning,
"Jeremy Corbyn braced for crunch Labour anti-Semitism meeting as veteran MP Margaret Hodge calls in her lawyers
The row began when Labour's ruling NEC failed to adopt the full International …"

Subject: RE: BS: UK Labour Party and IHRA def.
From: Kenny B (inactive)
Date: 23 Jul 18 - 10:11 AM

Thanks for the correction Backwoodsman ….. "N'est-ce pas?".

Subject: RE: BS: UK Labour Party and IHRA def.
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 23 Jul 18 - 10:17 AM

My pleasure entirely, Kenny - as Mrs Backwoodsperson is wont to point out, 'Pedant' is my middle name! ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: UK Labour Party and IHRA def.
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 23 Jul 18 - 10:27 AM

wanna be careful publicly admitting to being a 'pedant'...

Too many halfwit right wing vigilante thugs might mishear that word...

Subject: RE: BS: UK Labour Party and IHRA def.
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 23 Jul 18 - 10:31 AM

LOL! I'm bricking it! Not...

Subject: RE: BS: UK Labour Party and IHRA def.
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Jul 18 - 10:33 AM

MARGARET HODGE

WHY LABOUR REFUSES TO SIGN THE "CONTROVERSIAL" CODE

Some comments from other labour mambers
Margaret Hodge is a member of Labour Friends of Israel, a pro-Netanyahu lobby group that has opposed Jeremy Corbyn from the moment he became leader. LFI refused to condemn the Israeli government for murdering 100s of unarmed Palestinians in the #LandDayMassacre. Shame on them.

New conversation
Clare
@Clare_Scotland
Jul 17
More
Replying to @WarmongerHodges @Hasselschmuck
Hodge is actually anti Semitic - Arabs are also semites and to deny the genocide in Palestine is akin to what Jewish people suffered during ww2 hence the many Jewish critics of Zionism
Scotty Ariss

@scotty_ariss
Jul 17
More
I also thought this but, most definitions only include the Jewish faith...... interesting.

New conversation
Ian Anders
@anders_ian
Jul 18
More
Replying to @WarmongerHodges
I hate antisemitism. BUT I Hate even more people who use it as a tool or weapon to discredit someone. As Hodge and Umunna are doing. They are the lowest of all. They have no respect for anyone only themselves and their corrupt agenda
Joane Cleminson
?
@joane_cleminson
Jul 18
More
THEY SMEAR HIM, BECAUSE THEY FEAR HIM. SIMPLES. ??

New conversation
Mark lamar
@Marklamar20
Jul 17
More
Replying to @WarmongerHodges @SUTONGIROTCIP
I think it's about time we Who want a Corbyn led Government need to start being heard loudly,enough is enough with these blairites friends of apartheid Israel putting down Corbyn. Almost 600,000 members against a pathetic motley crew of saboteurs should start putting pressure on.

Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: UK Labour Party and IHRA def.
From: Kenny B (inactive)
Date: 23 Jul 18 - 10:34 AM

Didn't Franz von Suppé or Francesco Suppé Demelli (18 April 1819 – 21 May 1895) write an overture to that (along with a poet)
Google is a wonderful thing

Subject: RE: BS: UK Labour Party and IHRA def.
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 23 Jul 18 - 10:38 AM

Poet & Pedant? :-) :-)

Subject: RE: BS: UK Labour Party and IHRA def.
From: Iains
Date: 23 Jul 18 - 10:41 AM

Was that the "copy and paste" overture, or underture?

Subject: RE: BS: UK Labour Party and IHRA def.
From: Iains
Date: 23 Jul 18 - 10:55 AM

Pfr I am simply curious as to why a definition accepted by so many cannot be taken and used in it's entirety by the Labout Party. I would have thought that unity was a prize worth achieving especially if there is a whiff of an election in the offing. Self destruction does not buy votes, or gain supporters.

Subject: RE: BS: UK Labour Party and IHRA def.
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Jul 18 - 11:06 AM

You've just been given it Iains
Pretending yuo haven't won't make it go away
It's a "controversial" document
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: UK Labour Party and IHRA def.
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Jul 18 - 11:06 AM

You've just been given it Iains
Pretending yuo haven't won't make it go away
It's a "controversial" document
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: UK Labour Party and IHRA def.
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 23 Jul 18 - 11:08 AM

Iains - Pragmatics v principles..???

Just rubber stamping a dictated code in hope of appeasing hostile factions outside and within Labour,
and avoiding further controversy and attacks is a slippery slope...???

That would still not be enough to satisfy those with a ruthless anti Corbyn/labour agenda...

We all know it wouldn't shut em up or stop em...!!!

Certainly not at a time when the tories are so at risk of imploding and losing a snap election...

Corbyn needs to hold fast, and fight back harder...

Subject: RE: BS: UK Labour Party and IHRA def.
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 Jul 18 - 11:19 AM

"I think we all know who has "a good deal of form in setting up and polluting threads with this topic" and it ain't Keef."

Barefaced liar. I have NEVER set up a thread on this topic.

Subject: RE: BS: UK Labour Party and IHRA def.
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 23 Jul 18 - 11:28 AM

Isn't it too much of a coincidence that, every time the Tories are in an utter fuck-up (more and more frequently nowadays), the tired old tropes of 'racist', 'anti-semite', 'friend of terrorists', yadda yadda are dragged out by those who wish to discredit Labour and draw the attention of ordinary people away from what a hopeless, incompetent, thoroughly nasty bunch the Tories are?

That group includes the Blairite Banana Bunch, who would rather see a permanent Nasty-Party government than one led Corbyn.

Subject: RE: BS: UK Labour Party and IHRA def.
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 23 Jul 18 - 11:31 AM

Than one led BY Corbyn....

Subject: RE: BS: UK Labour Party and IHRA def.
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 23 Jul 18 - 11:36 AM

A friend of mine summed it all up pretty succinctly. He said that the old definition of anti-Semite was 'someone who dislikes Jews'. The revised definition of anti-Semite is 'someone whom Jews dislike'.

I think he has a point.....

Subject: RE: BS: UK Labour Party and IHRA def.
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 23 Jul 18 - 11:40 AM

BWM - point is .. WE ALL know that..

It's so blatantly obvious that the rabid hostile anti corbyn/labour uneasy alliance of blairites and far right,
are fully aware of the disruptive divisive games they are playing.....

But they still continue their cynical charade of denial...

Subject: RE: BS: UK Labour Party and IHRA def.
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Jul 18 - 12:09 PM

"Barefaced liar."
Don't get sucked in by Iain's abusive behaviour Steve - that's ho he operates and it's what gets threads closed
We have a chance to thrash this out and demand these people provided untainted proof of their accusations

THIS

AND THIS

WHAT THE ISRAELI MEDIA IS SAYING

'someone whom Jews dislike'.
The problem with that Baccy is many of the opponents of all this nonsense are Jews
In order to combat that Israel has striped themselves of their Jewishness by describing them as "self-loathers" - a smear for every occasion, it seems
Jim