Brexit #2

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Raggytash
Date: 21 Sep 18 - 12:07 PM

Thanks Jim.

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Sep 18 - 01:34 PM

You're welcome - thank yourself
Great article
May still throwing her toys out of the pram because Europe (27 countries) won't surrender to Britain's (1 country's) demands
Somebody needs to tell her the Empire's long dead
Jim

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: DMcG
Date: 22 Sep 18 - 03:18 AM

Labour wants to push ahead with Brexit

I don't envy any of the leaders given the current mess, but that Labour appears to think it would have a better chance than May to get a special deal with the EU just by picking different cherries is delusional.

I am no supporter of referendums in the UK system and fear that another, whatever the result, would bring years of division and possible violence. If the vote decided to cancel Brexit I am sure all those saying "we won, get over it" would suddenly find "the will of the people" didnt matter this time. Equally, if leave won, especially by another few percent margin, I would not expec4 all to be sweetness and light.

What is said at this Labour conference will, in my opinion, be critical. Including if the leadership says nothing.

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Iains
Date: 22 Sep 18 - 03:25 AM

I can think of nealy 40 billion reasons why the EU will blink first!

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: DMcG
Date: 22 Sep 18 - 03:32 AM

I do not know the furure any more than anyone else, but a deal - or no deal - has an annual cost/benefit, stretching over decades. it would be foolish to ignore that and focus on a one-off payment.

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Stanron
Date: 22 Sep 18 - 03:45 AM

Remaining has a year after year commitment coupled with eternal rules subjection.

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Thompson
Date: 22 Sep 18 - 05:21 AM

Not a question of blinking first; it's a question of Britain keeping its sworn word on the commitments of the Belfast Agreement.

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Iains
Date: 22 Sep 18 - 05:39 AM

Not a question of blinking first; it's a question of Britain keeping its sworn word on the commitments of the Belfast Agreement.

Not so. The EU has no sensible argument so bring up the question of the Irish Border as a negotiating tool. In other words, with their intransigence they are quite happy to risk re igniting the troubles.

The sooner we leave the motley crew the better.

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Thompson
Date: 22 Sep 18 - 05:58 AM

What could reignite a war is a border that breaks the Belfast Agreement.

The EU doesn't have to have "arguments" - it's Britain that wants to leave this trading bloc; it's up to Britain to work out how to do so gracefully and while keeping its legal agreement on Northern Ireland.

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Iains
Date: 22 Sep 18 - 06:33 AM

"The EU doesn't have to have "arguments".

Best tell that to the majority that voted for out!

The EU is worried the flood gates will open if we leave. The meddlesome bureaucrats morphed a simple trade organisation into a monolithic political entity that pays attention to no one.

I look forward to the coming collapse of it.

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Sep 18 - 07:08 AM

"I look forward to the coming collapse of it."
I'm sure you welcome the sound of jackboots resounding in the streets of Europe especially a return of ULTA RIGHT Germany
Happy days are here again for some fundamentalists
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Sep 18 - 07:08 AM

"I look forward to the coming collapse of it."
I'm sure you welcome the sound of jackboots resounding in the streets of Europe especially a return of ULTA RIGHT Germany
Happy days are here again for some fundamentalists
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Iains
Date: 22 Sep 18 - 07:25 AM

"I'm sure you welcome the sound of jackboots resounding in the streets of Europe especially a return of ULTA RIGHT Germany
Happy days are here again for some fundamentalists"
What an exceedingly stupid post.

Best ignored I think.

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 22 Sep 18 - 11:58 AM

Yes Jim. You should ignore him.

Just reminding you :-)

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Thompson
Date: 22 Sep 18 - 12:03 PM

Maybe. The kind of nationalism that sees immigration not as a leavening and enriching of a country but as thinning out of the purity of race is rising worryingly in both Europe and America (and of course has never ceased in China, Japan and the subcontinent).

And the thing is, because it's creeping in - at first as dog-whistle ideas and symbols (like the Aryan Nation hand signal in the US), and gradually becoming more overt, we think it's harmless. The kind of thing that's said quite commonly about Muslims is identical to what was said about Jews in the 1920s and 1930s; now that it's become acceptable to speak about Muslims like that, it's also becoming acceptable to speak about Jews in the same way.

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: DMcG
Date: 23 Sep 18 - 03:11 AM

Brexit: Labour 'would back members' on new vote, says leadership>

"Labour's leader and deputy leader say they would be ready to back another EU referendum if party members want one.

Leader Jeremy Corbyn told the Sunday Mirror he was not calling for a new vote but would "adhere to" any decision made at this week's party conference.

And deputy leader Tom Watson, speaking to the Observer, said the view of party members must be respected.

It comes as a poll for the newspaper suggests 86% of members want a vote on the outcome of Brexit negotiations."


The chances of the membership calling for a vote are extremely high, with so many submissions for consideration calling for precisely that. It is a good 'out' for him, because whatever he has said or not said about Brexit in the past, he has made 'the membership' the central plank of his leadership.

We wait to see what happens on Tuesday. He has not said it explicitly as far as I am aware, but if the membership is insisting 'remain' be one of the options in the vote, consistency would demand he backs that as well.

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Sep 18 - 03:11 AM

"Yes Jim. You should ignore him."
I will, of course, unless he's suggesting that we should ignore the sound of Jackboots in Europe, which is not beyond the realms of possibility, of course
As Thompson just pointed out, that's on the cards, both over here and in The States.

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Sep 18 - 03:25 AM

PATRIOTIC SPRING

OPPORTUNISTIC RISE OF THE FAR RIGHT

BREXIT, TRUMP anf RISE of FAR RIGHT

Suits some, I suppose
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 23 Sep 18 - 03:45 AM

That last article resonated with me, Jim. I mentioned in another thread the the EU had helped to stabilise Europe and given my family background it was little wonder that I was pro EU.

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 Sep 18 - 03:47 AM

the sound of Jackboots in Europe

A good reason for us to get out!

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 Sep 18 - 03:55 AM

I mentioned in another thread the the EU had helped to stabilise Europe and given my family background it was little wonder that I was pro EU.

It is questionable that EU was responsible for Europe's stability, and it is far from stable now with the Far Right on the rise everywhere, except here.

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 23 Sep 18 - 03:57 AM

Don't respond, Jim. You know it makes sense :-)

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Sep 18 - 05:09 AM

Don't worry Dave
Why respond to people who miss the poingt that it's Brexit that is causing the rise in Fascism and similar things are happening IN BRITAIN

FAR RIGHT TERRORISM IN BRITAIN

BRITAIN'S WAKE-UP CALL SIR MARK ROWLEY
What did they used to say, "If you're not against them you're part of them"
Goes without saying

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Sep 18 - 05:10 AM

Whoops
Worth saying three times though
Sorry mods

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Iains
Date: 23 Sep 18 - 05:10 AM

Why do you post everything twice?

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 23 Sep 18 - 05:21 AM

Again Jim, don't respond. Posting multiple times is a technical glitch. Responding to those who get their rocks off by winding you up is just madness!

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Sep 18 - 05:41 AM

"Again Jim, don't respond. "
No intention of Dave
The links say everything that need to be said, as does the failure to respond to them

https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/far-right-white-trump-extremism-ukip-tory-party-churchill-race-privilege-a8241796.html
Can't blue clickie
Jim

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Iains
Date: 23 Sep 18 - 06:35 AM

https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/far-right-white-trump-extremism-ukip-tory-party-churchill-race-privilege-a8241796.html

A rather hysterical article by a leading light of the loony left.
He is currently a journalist-in-residence at Kingston University.That says it all really!

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Sep 18 - 08:43 AM

Corbyn has told the party conference that, even though he would prefer a General Election he would not oppose a second referendum if that was what was decided
It is reckoned that 87% of the Labor Party now wants re-run of the referendum - can't think of another Party that allows such democracy in its ranks
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Sep 18 - 08:50 AM

WHAT PASSES FOR "LOONEY LEFT" TO SOME - PROBABLY A 'COLOUR' THING
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: peteglasgow
Date: 23 Sep 18 - 08:52 AM

to be fair, i have also asked why you so often repeat posts, jim? (and was also ignored!)

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 Sep 18 - 10:44 AM

Repeat posts are just accidents. You think your post is hanging so you try again slightly prematurely. It happens to me when I've forgotten the insurance of putting it on the clipboard before submitting, so I keep trying again in panic mode for fear of losing the damn thing altogether. It honestly isn't worth commenting on. Some forums give you the chance to remove duplicates and edit typos. Not this one, so these things shouldn't be turned back on the poster. I've found without fail here that the people who take the mick out of other people's typos, etc., are guilty of all sorts of glitches and absurdities of language in their own posts. They are the only people who deserve to be ribbed. I mean, YOU don't exactly use many capital letters, eh, Pete... ;-)

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 Sep 18 - 10:47 AM

Sunny Hundal is as fearlessly unracist as they come.

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Sep 18 - 10:54 AM

"to be fair, i have also asked why you so often repeat posts, jim? (and was also ignored!)"
Four activ lifelong interests of mine have been politics (a family thing), Modern European history, classic films and traditional culture
Now I'm retired I spend a great deal of time in front of the computer working at the latter so it's convenient for my to pursue my other interests as a breather here for light relief
Why do you ask?
Sorry I missed your question first time

"YOU don't exactly use many capital letters, eh, Pete."
Never read any e e cummins Stve ;-) great poet
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Sep 18 - 10:56 AM

"Sonny Hundal is as fearlessly unracist as they come."
He's also Liberal left
Jim

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Iains
Date: 23 Sep 18 - 11:01 AM

"Sonny Hundal is as fearlessly unracist as they come."

So why bring colour into it?   Seems a racist comment to me, otherwise why link to a wiki article on someone of Indian ancestry and mention colour. It is blatantly racist!


"Repeat posts are just accidents."

Once Is an Accident. Twice is a Coincidence. Three Times is a Habit.
and a particularly irritating one!

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 Sep 18 - 11:04 AM

it's Brexit that is causing the rise in Fascism and similar things are happening IN BRITAIN

Ha ha ha. None of it can be linked in any way to Brexit.
In France the Le Pens predate it by years.
There is nothing remotely similar happening here.

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Donuel
Date: 23 Sep 18 - 11:58 AM

Both our countries are acting like there is no reset button and once they find one they are afraid to press it.

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 Sep 18 - 01:33 PM

Cheers for fixing my typo, mod. And for your ultimate wisdom in not deleting Jim's post in the face of...

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Sep 18 - 03:24 PM

Sorry Pete - ansered wrong question - can't multi-task too well
"why you so often repeat posts, jim?"
Sometimes my posts don't go off (or appear not to) - slow speeds heer in the wild-west, so I repost, only to find they went off the first time
Anyway - it gives the trolls something to make an issue of when they find themselves at a loss!
Jim

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: peteglasgow
Date: 23 Sep 18 - 05:16 PM

FAIR ENOUGH, JIM. MY OWN HABIT OF NEVER USING CAPITALS IS LAZINESS AND AN AFFECTATIOn. doesn't really matter, eh?

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Sep 18 - 02:45 AM

I think that anyone who finds trivial stuff such as typos or accidental duplicate posts "particularly irritating" should visit their doctor with a view to being prescribed tranquillisers. On the whole, I've found that such people have their own well-rehearsed ways of being "particularly irritating" and, not infrequently, are given to displaying semi-literate traits of their own. That's not irritating. That's highly amusing.

I'm very worried about this people's vote malarkey even though I seem to be in a small minority of Labour members. It will be down to the Tories to set up and run the thing, including setting the question, and another close vote would do nothing to settle the issue and everything to whip up a nasty brand of Farage-populism. I'd like to see Labour coming out to oppose brexit. Not much chance of that, but the ground could shift significantly within a few weeks. Who knows.

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Sep 18 - 03:03 AM

"Farage-populism."
We've just had a visitation from this twot - he booked a hall in Dublin and held a rally (couldn't find a Biergarten) to encourage the Irish to leave Europe
Hopefully it will fall as flat as the beer he appears to drink
Ireland has been fotunate with the E.U. - it's backed new roads and has been a godsend to the arts
I have litle doubt that, without E.U. support May and her Mayflies would have hung Ireland out to dry and walked away from the implications of re-establishing the border
As it is, their indifference to the little bit of Ireland that considers itself England, they have not had a workable administration up there for nearly two years and the Foster enquiry that is taking place at present looks to drag that out for even longer
Their only purpose at present is to help Britain's dying dog over its stile

"doesn't really matter, eh?"
'Coure it doesn't - I quite like it Peter - I'm a great fan of e e cummins - he never used them
Jim

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 24 Sep 18 - 03:10 AM

We neither need a 'people's vote', nor is it democratic. We have a system of Representative Democracy, with 650 MPs being very well-paid to make decisions on behalf of the electorate. What's needed is for those very well-paid MPs to do their bloody job, debate whatever ramshackle deal this bunch of incompetent spunk-trumpets manage to come up with (or, more likely, 'No Deal'), and vote according to conscience in a free vote?

That's true democracy in action, and it's precisely how the decision to leave, or not to leave, the EU should have been made in the first place.

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 24 Sep 18 - 03:12 AM

Bloody iPad! The ? after 'free vote' should have been a !

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Sep 18 - 03:42 AM

I couldn't agree more. And it's now as plain as the nose on everyone's face that brexit can't be in this country's best interests, and any political leader worth his or her salt would stand up and proclaim so. This is one issue above all that simply can't be settled on party lines.

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Iains
Date: 24 Sep 18 - 04:22 AM

"I couldn't agree more. And it's now as plain as the nose on everyone's face that brexit can't be in this country's best interests, and any political leader worth his or her salt would stand up and proclaim so"

Seems a majority do not agree. They voted for brexit, and you again are trying to pass off opinion as fact.

a little history for you!
From: Iains - PM
Date: 13 Oct 17 - 12:05 PM
. . .why do you continue to quote your opinions as though they are incontestable facts? You fool very few here.
From: Steve Shaw - PM
Date: 13 Oct 17 - 12:21 PM
Because that’s what I do. Live with it.
From: akenaton - PM
Date: 15 Oct 17 - 10:09 AM

Nigel is not a stalker, merely showing where Steve is being "wrong headed". If he was not regularly checked by logic, people might start to believe his myth spinning.

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: DMcG
Date: 24 Sep 18 - 04:24 AM

According to the Guardian, Jon McDonnell told the BBC "However he appeared to confirm that senior figures believe any referendum would ask voters to approve Theresa May's deal or leaving without a deal - removing any option of staying within the bloc."

The Independent reports the BBC interview in very similar terms.


This is substantially different from the BBC's report on agreeing the motion:

"But what was left out of the conference motion is as important as what went in.

The leadership had to agree that wording which restricted a future referendum to "the terms of Brexit" had to go.

This means that the party could, in theory, back a referendum that gave voters the option of remaining in the EU and not just a vote on the final deal."

It sounds like the BBC interview by Robinson had McDonnell taking the stance "that had to go".

The debate tomorrow will focus on this I think. In tactical terms, a distraction from May's difficult day today.

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 24 Sep 18 - 04:28 AM

Much as I agree, Steve, the consequences of that could be very mixed. On the one hand, as it happened on their shift, it would do irreparable damage to the tories. Which is good. On the other hand it could open the door for old frog face and his merry band of fascists. Which is bad.

It could of course be an opportunity for the Labour party to take real control of the situation and say what they are going to do about it in the event of an election before next March. But the vaguely pink Tories in the party are more intent on saving their own necks while joining in the right wing game of kick the Corbyn.t

I don't think the state of politics in this country of the world has ever been so bad. The establishment and rich king makers are running so scared of an educated and well informed electorate that they are trying their utmost to destroy the gains the common people have made in the last 100 years. They would rather see the world destroyed by their puppets than give away one ounce of their power.

Ok. Rant over. Who's next for the soapbox?

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: DMcG
Date: 24 Sep 18 - 04:32 AM

For what it is worth, I think Justine Greening's approach of ranking outcomes in your order of preference is very sensible and allows all options to be covered without splitting the remain vote, as some have claimed.