Brexit #2

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Raggytash
Date: 16 Nov 18 - 06:19 AM

I think perhaps Iains that you are choosing to ignore the facts that the pound had been trading* at levels in excess of 1.25 euro to the pound for over 2 years prior to the dramatic fall the day after the Brexit referendum.

* There was a slight dip in late April 2016 when it was 1.23.959.

The truth of the matter is that the referendum caused a massive decline in the value of the pound that it has not recovered from and which has had a negative impact on the rise in the cost of living for everyone.

That rise, of course impacts, to a greater degree on those with lower incomes. Although I suspect you couldn't give a toss about those people.

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Nov 18 - 06:27 AM

"The pound presently trades at a level seen in 2010 but with reduced volatility."

Reduced volatility? On Tuesday I bought a hundred quids'-worth of euros to load on to my prepaid card. If I'd bought 'em today I'd have got two and a half cents less per quid. With "reduced volatility" like that, who needs ordinary volatility!

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 16 Nov 18 - 06:40 AM

If anyone doubts that the campaign against the EU has been orchestrated for a long time and mainly false try this

The EU has archived all of the "Euromyths" printed in UK media - and it makes for some disturbing reading

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 16 Nov 18 - 07:48 AM

"It was obvious to some of from the start. It should now be blatantly obvious to all that the whole sorry affair was dreamed up by a tiny but powerful minority with vested interests in keeping the British people under their heel."

Precisely what I've been saying throughout this thread and its predecessor, and for which I've had scorn heaped on me by our indoctrinated, happy-to-take-it-up-the-arse-from-a-Tory, Conservative stooges on here.

It's got Sweet Fuck All to do with 'Take Back Control', and everything to do with giving complete control to that 'tiny but powerful minority with vested interests in keeping the British people under their heel'.

Never have so many feeble-minded fools been so misled by so few.

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: DMcG
Date: 16 Nov 18 - 08:57 AM

According to Steven Swinford of the Telegraph the remaining Eurosceptics in cabinet "aim to change the wording of the backstop exit mechanism to stop it binding UK in customs union indefinitely"

... so far it is understandable ...

"There's genuine optimism it can be done ahead of Brussels summit on Nov 25"

... what?????? Even by Brexiteer standards, that may be a new high for 'genuine optimism'

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Iains
Date: 16 Nov 18 - 09:10 AM

Never have so many feeble-minded fools been so misled by so few.
Must be remainiacs. Brexiteers have far more sense, as we all know.
We deal in facts not fancy, unlike the clowns.

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: KarenH
Date: 16 Nov 18 - 09:24 AM

Here are the arguments of Rees-Mogg as stated in the Express:

"What we need is a leader who will say to the EU 'it is impossible to divide up the UK, it is impossible to agree to a situation where we have a perpetual customs union, it's impossible to pay £39billion of taxpayers money for a few promises which were meant to be £39billion for an implementation of a deal, and it is impossible for us to allow the continuing jurisdiction of the European Court of Justice’."


I am not saying I agree with them, just trying to put a bit of focus into the discussion. For example:

Why are we paying the EU this money: it is 'for an implementation of a deal' or is it for some other reason?

In what aspects if any will the European Court of Justice continue to have jurisdiction?

In what sense does the proposed agreement 'divide up' the UK?

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 16 Nov 18 - 09:34 AM

Mention feeble-minded Tory stooges who enjoy taking it up the arse from the toffs and, right on cue, one appears...

"Brexiteers have far more sense, as we all know.
We deal in facts not fancy, unlike the clowns."

And that's going really well for you, innit? Bwwaaaaaahh-ha-ha-ha-haaaaahh!

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 16 Nov 18 - 09:44 AM

"We deal in facts not fancy, unlike the clowns."

Would these be the facts that you, Nigs, Keefie, and other sundry wandering BrexShitters have told us, on numerous occasions, are as yet unknown 'because Brexit hasn't happened yet'?

A liar needs a good memory.

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Iains
Date: 16 Nov 18 - 10:32 AM

I believe the renmainiacs were the ones gathering up horror stories to gleefully display here. They were all successfully repudiated by pointing out the fact that brexit has yet to occur.
Brexiteers 1!
clowns 0!

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 16 Nov 18 - 10:42 AM

No. As you're very well aware, the Remainers here have constantly asked the BrexShit-Bumpkins for some positive facts about the looming BrexShit disaster, and have been told there are no facts "Because Brexit hasn't happened yet".

Tell us, how do you avoid bumping into things as you walk around with your head on back-to-front?

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Iains
Date: 16 Nov 18 - 10:57 AM

Interesting yougov survey from Guido


https://order-order.com/2018/11/16/just-36-brits-want-stop-brexit
I wonder just how accurate it is? The remainiacs are obviously not quite where they would like to be. No surprises there!

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 16 Nov 18 - 11:21 AM

Here ya go, a few facts for you...

https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/uk/2018/11/brexiteers-only-have-themselves-blame-uk-s-disastrous-fate


Any good news about the BrexShit Debacle?

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Thompson
Date: 16 Nov 18 - 11:45 AM

What amuses me in a horrible way is that if the unionists had themselves negotiated the deal they’re being offered they’d be gloating and boasting unbearably.

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 16 Nov 18 - 11:46 AM

Here you are, some more facts for you (you do understand the meaning of the word 'facts' do you?) from a considerably more reliable source than a Right-Wing Extremist Criminal, and based on a significantly bigger sample than your idiot-boy, Seaman Staines...

https://news.sky.com/story/majority-of-brits-now-against-brexit-and-back-second-eu-referendum-sky-data-poll-11555078

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: DMcG
Date: 16 Nov 18 - 12:14 PM

That order.order articl3 claims those are from the latest YouGov poll but they do not seem to match the one carried out by YouGov for The Evening Standard after the deal was declared. Can you tell us which poll it is?

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: DMcG
Date: 16 Nov 18 - 12:30 PM

Here's another good one.

The government is fighting hard to ensure it does not have the right to cancel the Article 50 unilaterally.


That's taking back control for you.

"And I think to myself/What a wonderful world!"

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: The Sandman
Date: 16 Nov 18 - 01:24 PM

may will survive because the rest of the conservative party mps are even bigger idiots

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Nov 18 - 01:37 PM

If you resign from the Cabinet in a huff (Johnson, Raab, Davis, McVey) you've basically shat in your own bed. But one prominent member has decided "to stay loyal to May." Gove.

Meet the next Tory party leader. Oh, I suppose he might have to scrap it out with Leadsom and/or Mordant, two other biters-of-lips. No contest, I'd say. Aren't Tories just so lovely.

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Iains
Date: 16 Nov 18 - 02:22 PM

Here you are, some more facts for you (you do understand the meaning of the word 'facts' do you?) from a considerably more reliable source than a Right-Wing Extremist Criminal.

The only problem that you have is that you have only ever managed to attack the source of the article with your insulting remarks.
Not one of you have managed to discredit his data. A fact you should perhaps ruminate on.

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Nov 18 - 02:48 PM

What data ?
He's a right wing blogger who offers a distorted analysis of events - no data
You hav Persistently dismissed information as "only your opinion", yet you rely on a criminal blogger for your own contributionBoth lacking in imagination and claiming something you will not accept (on occasion) from others
Most people here offer up documented facts - you rely almost entirely on a tory liar

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 16 Nov 18 - 02:56 PM

"Most people here offer up documented facts - you rely almost entirely on a tory liar"

Yes Jim, those Tory liars certainly stick together - like dogshit on the sole of your shoe.
Have you noticed how the resident BrexShit-Bumpkins never respond to the substance of what's actually put to them? We have one whose only tactic is to nitpick others' spelling and/or grammar, and another who relies on a proven Right-Wing Extremist, racist criminal.

No wonder Brexit's gone tits-up.

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Iains
Date: 16 Nov 18 - 03:33 PM

"Most people here offer up documented facts - you rely almost entirely on a tory liar"

More little jimmie frothing idiocy. I substantiate what I say with numerous links from varied sources. Frequently when I quote guido I put up alternative media sources corroborating his information. Rather makes a nonsense of your puerile assertions doncha think?

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Raggytash
Date: 16 Nov 18 - 05:07 PM

Iains,

No-one from your side of the discussion has ever proffered any facts.

Not once.

What has been said on frequent occasions is a "promise" that things will be better for us all if we leave the EU.

Now I realise that no one on my side of the discussion has been able to offer any concrete facts either.

However almost without exception every commentator of every hue has proffered that the political and economic ramifications of leaving the EU will be detrimental to the well being of the UK as a whole.

I have asked repeatedly over the past 30 months for a positive reason to be believe that our leaving the EU will be beneficial to the people of this country.

Surely after 30 months you will be able to provide such evidence.

So ...................

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Nov 18 - 06:32 PM

"I substantiate what I say with numerous links from varied sources. Frequently when I quote guido I put up alternative media sources..."

No you don't. Please don't try to peddle bullshit. You extremely frequently resort to Guido with no further balancing links. Just because you occasionally use other sources doesn't justify your second sentence. And there's one very basic thing that most thinking people get that you don't. Guido, the Sun, the Express, the Mail and one or two others down there in the gutter don't just relay news. They relay news mixed with comment laced with a healthy dose of sensationalist scandal. That comment may be subtly put. It's put in a tendentious, hidden, right-wing guise. But you don't see it. You've been seriously taken in. You actively seek out sources that confirm your personal bias. I mean, how crude is that? You rarely if ever resort to sources that at least try to report news neutrally, keeping their opinion separate in a separate section of the paper. In fact, you routinely diss media that do that. You'd far rather just brand them, simply because they don't share your bioted ideology, as leftie crap. You are the epitome of the pig-ignorant Sun-reading, brainless bloody prole. And you're even a bit shit at geology. I'm not even a geologist, and I can see it. It's late. Sleep tight, "fellah."

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Nov 18 - 06:39 PM

"Bioted?" I had a teddy bear like that once. He was vegan and definitely organic. We didn't get on, but at least he wasn't bigoted.

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Nov 18 - 02:57 AM

"More little jimmie frothing idiocy. "
And more insecure insulting childishness, you are not even very good at that
You have never offered original opinions, nor have you attempted to respond to the actual situation
Where is your response to the economic uncertainty that is predicted to last for at least a decade that this crass referendum has set into motion?
Or the racist policy on which it was sold?
Or the fact that it will almost certainly bring the Government down and possibly break up the United Kingdom ?
Or the immorality and inhumanity of refusing refugees asylum while at the same time arming their persecutors ?
These, and many more points you have totally ignored; in return, each time you find yourself in confronted you scurry behind extremist bloggers - Guido being a favorite - the dregs was a rabid racist site.
That is not discussion - that's mindless soap-boxing
Your return to your anonymous bullying persona is as unpleasantly childish as it is predictable
You want to debate - debate; you want to strut and display, go join a gang, that's how bullies usually operate
It seems my first impressions - "M M", were correct

Raggy just put your situation perfectly
No-one from your side of the discussion has ever proffered any facts.
Not once.

Let's see if Nigel can make a better job of it
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 17 Nov 18 - 03:09 AM

"Let's see if Nigel can make a better job of it"

Very doubtful Jim, although I'm sure he'll get immense satisfaction from pointing out slip-ups in your grammar, or punctuation errors. ;-) ;-)

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: DMcG
Date: 17 Nov 18 - 04:12 AM

What has been said on frequent occasions is a "promise" that things will be better for us all if we leave the EU.

It is worse than that. Most Brexit commentators and promoters recognise there will be some short term disruption, but insist in the future it will be better.

Keith was honest enough to say he believed that disruption would last at most three months after Brexit day if we left with no deal. Nigel, despite picking me up on an error I made with dates, was not prepared to give any indication how long these short term effects might last. Some politicians have said 10 years, and while Rees-Mogg didn't quite say how long they would last, be did say it might take 50 years for the full effects of Brexit to be understood.

What 'short term' means is vital, because to cope with short term disruption requires resources. Some big manufacturers are stock-piling: that ties up money and affects balance sheets. Some householders may be thinking of or actually doing the same with non-perishable food - again, that ties up resources. Whether you do that or not, come any actual disruption you may be living of some kind of savings - actual money or food stocks for example - to cover any shortfall during the disruption.

Now, if you are a millionaire, you may well be able to cover a disruption lasting a few years. On the other hand if you are living on a zero hours minimum wage job you may not have enough resources to last a week. Small businesses may have enough cash in the bank to pay their workers for a month or two but would go bust if the disruption continued for three months.

That is why how long and how severe the disruptions are matter. Sunny uplands beyond, even if real and not some mirage, cannot be considered in isolation.

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Nov 18 - 05:03 AM

I've always thought it sloppy and disrespectful to misspell people's names through carelessness and inadequate checking, so I hereby eat humble pie and correct my rendering yesterday of Penny Mordaunt's surname, much as I detest the woman.

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 17 Nov 18 - 05:18 AM

"I've always thought it sloppy and disrespectful to misspell people's names through carelessness and inadequate checking, so I hereby eat humble pie and correct my rendering yesterday of Penny Mordaunt's surname, much as I detest the woman."

I agree Steve. I always seem to have spelling problems with Michael 'Bad-Wig' Fabricunt.

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Nov 18 - 05:27 AM

Somewhat reminiscent of Jim Naughtie's faulty yet oddly appropriate rendering of Jeremy Hunt's surname. As it involved a word I try never to type out, let's just say that the Cockney rhyming slang of it is very likely "James Blunt."

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Nov 18 - 05:43 AM

INTERESTING COMMENTS HERE THAT WILL BE IGNORED BY OUR DEFENDERS OF THE REALM
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 17 Nov 18 - 05:51 AM

Will grey anoraks be cheaper after brexit!!!!!!!

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Donuel
Date: 17 Nov 18 - 08:10 AM

DMcG You said "...live of some kind of savings." It should be
"Live ON some kind of savings."
Nigel (Donuel) Parsons

My point is that
I see that even the enlightened folks in the UK are getting bogged down in unimportant detail. Democracy is at stake. The Brexit issue presents the conundrum that democracy is challenged because of one very large uninformed vote and as a result democracy is damned if you do or damned if you don't implement Brexit.

As an American I am insulated and naive regarding the information overload you guys are immersed in. So I am instead left to think of the big picture.

Are the people there really forgetting that they have been socially attacked by Russia, Cold War Style, for your hearts and minds to be subverted from a united Western liberal Democracy?

Sure you all speak with expertise about the next domino that is about to fall in your country as a result of the squabble over left-right, Hard-Soft, wet-dry, Brexit-Fixits. These are details that are given power by discussion that need not have arisen in the first place.

Could 51% of you be united against a common foe (Russia) instead of yourselves? Is there room for a reset/revote?


Was Belgium that tyranical? Am I all wrong?

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: bobad
Date: 17 Nov 18 - 08:22 AM

Are the people there really forgetting that they have been socially attacked by Russia

Russia is not the only hostile state meddling in the UK, Iran is also doing its part.

See: TOI

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: DMcG
Date: 17 Nov 18 - 08:22 AM

My point is that I see that even the enlightened folks in the UK are getting bogged down in unimportant detail. Democracy is at stake. The Brexit issue presents the conundrum that democracy is challenged because of one very large uninformed vote and as a result democracy is damned if you do or damned if you don't implement Brexit.


Both are important, Donuel, and they are interconnected.   What happens if a large proportion of the population have substantially reduced their resources? A lot can be done by changing what you eat, how you live and so on, but it is not inexhaustible. I think you get an amplification of the belief that 'democracy does not work for me', which fed into the forces for Brexit and the election of Trump, and many others riding the populistic waves.

The essential condition for democracy to work is that people feel that on balance it is a way of improving their or their descendants lot. If that goes, so does a belief in democracy as a whole.

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Donuel
Date: 17 Nov 18 - 08:34 AM

or is it all expensive racism

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: The Sandman
Date: 17 Nov 18 - 09:19 AM

The proposal by May as regads the irish border is in my opinion a reasonable one, i am not a supporter of the conservative p[arty , but nobobdy has come up with anything better apart from the suggestion of a second referendum and who knows how that would go, a uk leadership conservative party contest with the subsequent instabilty is not in the interst of people in ireland at this moment

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Nov 18 - 09:32 AM

"Russia, Cold War Style,"
There seems to be a lot of point missing here
The "free" former Communist nations are far more of a world threat than ever they were under communism - there was never a threat of invasion or direct interference from The Soviet Union, China, or any of the old states
First we had direct interference in referenda and national elections, now we have outbreaks of poisonings in Britain and the torture and murder of a foreign national in Saudi Arabia
This is now an international ball-game encouraged by the populism set rolling by Brexit - all the extremists have to do is wag a flag and make foreigners culprits and they are on a winner
Fascist parties on the rise, the Nazis back on the streets of Germany... we've been here before - throw in the Klan ready to take to the streets of Northern Ireland and Britain and you can include places we've never been]

"Russia - Iran"
How about your own flavour of the month Bobad - selling nuclear triggers to Iran, while at the same time demonising them ?
The Israeli leadership, as right wing as it is, is now at war with its own extremists over attempts to negotiate peace with the Palestinians

The fall of Communism was heralded as a great leap forward - now there is hardly a Continent on the planet where there is not cause for concern

As a young man, I took to the streets to oppose nuclear weapons - we were told they would never be used but were necessary as "deterrents" - not an arument I ever bought.
Now we are being asked to accept a world where only the extremists right nations - America, Israel, The Saudis..... have a list has been compiled as to who is fit to hold them, headed by a madman who boasts that "his button is bigger than anyone else's"
We need to hang our heads in shame over the world we have bequeathed to those who will take over, and we certainly need to stop pointing fingers and start to clean up our own dog-shit
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: bobad
Date: 17 Nov 18 - 10:05 AM

at the same time demonising them

Demonizing a misogynistic, homophobic, totalitarian, terrorist supporting theocracy............good heavens, imagine!

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: bobad
Date: 17 Nov 18 - 10:10 AM

I left out oppressive, xenophobic, anti-American and anti-Semitic because I wouldn't want to, you know, be accused of demonizing them.

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Mossback
Date: 17 Nov 18 - 10:13 AM

Demonizing a misogynistic, homophobic, totalitarian, terrorist supporting theocracy

I assume you're referring the right-wing Israeli government?

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: KarenH
Date: 17 Nov 18 - 10:21 AM

Donuel

With respect, one of the biggest threats to social democracies in Europe has to be the US neo-right, including, but not limited to, Breitbart.

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Nov 18 - 10:30 AM

I suggest the answer to not getting this thread closed is not to respond to those who advocate for their own favourite terrorist states and treat the pressing problems as what they are - a result in the sharp rise in the extremist right
I don't think there are many here who have trouble in sorting out the sheep from the lambs in that one
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Donuel
Date: 17 Nov 18 - 10:42 AM

I hear pessimistic voices from some of you.
The UK was the bastion of Democracy when the rest of Europe was under nationalistic Nazi control.
What's the matter, don't you think you can do it again?
Have you lost your leadership or your spine?
When only the Nationalists sound confident you sound weak.


Italy is close again to nationalist rule, but are you?
I really don't think so.
Elsewhere the right is only in third place,
soon that will be only as far that Trumpism will get in the US.

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Nov 18 - 11:06 AM

"The UK was the bastion of Democracy when the rest of Europe was under nationalistic Nazi control."
A matter of opinion -
Britain was fighting a defensive war because it attempted to appease Nazizm upto the point where it could no longer do so - the failure to launch a 'Second Front' was an indication that that appeasement sill remained to a a degree during the war
It really is complex - much of this involved pragmatism rather than real democracy
Any democracy was introduced after the war by a watered down 'socialist' Government - despite fierce opposition from Britain's former leaders
My old man was criminalised for fighting fascism in Spain, just as members of his family were for taking to the streets to fight an Antisemitic member of the House of Lords (protected by British policemen on horseback)
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Donuel
Date: 17 Nov 18 - 11:13 AM

Jim we know you are a tough cookie.
You need to get Bannon who is unifying disparate Nazi sects in Europe ask we speak.

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Nov 18 - 11:29 AM

I know what's happening in the U.S. Don - scares the shit out of me (though to a degree, it's not really that new)
We watched nightly over the seven years while as your 'Democratic nation' pured burning petrol on peasant farmers and sprayed them with carcinogenic chemicals which took out your own pilots
Not much new under the sun.
A statement in The Irish Times chilled me to the bone when I read it "There is a Nigel Farage in every country in Europe at present"

I'm actually not that hard line - a bit of a reformist rather than a revolutionary nowadays
I believe the E.U. to be an organisation of Capitalist States trying to defend Capitalism as it dies
I would rather support that than the alternative, but it doesn't mean I am unaware of what I'm supporting
Jim

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Iains
Date: 17 Nov 18 - 11:41 AM

outright plagiarism.

There once was a PM named May
Determined to get her own way.
Not listening to reason,
She opted for treason
And was gone by the end of the day.

We hope!