Brexit #2

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: DMcG
Date: 18 Oct 18 - 01:51 AM

Not forgetting that we are considering extending the transition for a year to prevent a backstop we won't agree to taking effect. Which it can't anyway unless we agree to it.

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 18 Oct 18 - 02:20 AM

Anybody remember, a couple of years ago, Liam Fox saying that the Brexit agreement would be "The easiest deal ever"?

Bwwwaaaaaaaaaaa-ha-ha-ha-haaaaaahhhh!!

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 18 Oct 18 - 02:38 AM

Anybody looking forward to our new trade deal with the US?

Eeeeeeeuuugghh!

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: peteglasgow
Date: 18 Oct 18 - 04:15 AM

if everybody just ignored our politicians - they would probably just forget about it

'oh yes, i remember that brexit thing...it was about backstopping or something wasn't it? all seems a bit silly now, doesn't it?'

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 18 Oct 18 - 05:02 AM

This needs repeating over and over Backwoodsman, brexiters looking to a trade deal with the US are playing Russian Roulette with the health of our children.

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 18 Oct 18 - 05:09 AM

Amen, David.

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Iains
Date: 18 Oct 18 - 05:14 AM

"This needs repeating over and over Backwoodsman, brexiters looking to a trade deal with the US are playing Russian Roulette with the health of our children."
I presume a few facts to justify the above statement is not an unreasonable request?

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Stanron
Date: 18 Oct 18 - 07:03 AM

Here in the UK we may on occasion forget that the origins of this forum are American. For our American friends I would like to point out that the ideas expressed in the post of

18 Oct 18 - 05:02 AM

are NOT universally accepted in the UK. It is the view of a small minority.

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Iains
Date: 18 Oct 18 - 07:23 AM

I presume this is a fearmongering reference to washed chickens.
chlorine
A Trade agreement is one thing,sorting out the nitty gritty detail is another.
and surely the function of an opposition party is to highlight any such concerns and to fight for whatever may be deemed the best solution.
As the article explains there are very good reasons for the chlorine wash. The EU taking it as an excuse for unproven detrimental practices and poor husbandry is simply hysterical protectionism at its worst.

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: peteglasgow
Date: 18 Oct 18 - 07:47 AM

certainly not the views of a small minority in the UK - many of us are rightly doubt the wisdom of throwing ourselves at the current US government in the hope of getting a favourable trade deal. the president has made it very clear it is AMERICA FIRST!!!! from now on and has no reason to give anything like a good deal to a failing nation on the edge of the richest trading bloke of the world

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 18 Oct 18 - 07:51 AM

Are you quite sure about that, Stanron?

Revealed: rightwing groups plot to ditch EU safety standards on food and drugs

I know many Americans who are just as concerned with the profit over safety principle.

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 18 Oct 18 - 07:55 AM

Is The Times newspaper sufficiently authoritative...??

Or is this something else that our resident BrexShit Ostriches will cheerfully bury their heads in the sand over?

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 18 Oct 18 - 08:00 AM

A few facts for our Brexit Ostriches to be in denial over...

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 18 Oct 18 - 08:17 AM

Most of the Americans I know would like the US agro-industrial complex to adopt food hygiene and animal welfare standards more like those of the EU than the ones they get away with now. And in the UK this is not the view of a small minority, it is the view of the majority, particularly of educated people.

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Stanron
Date: 18 Oct 18 - 08:36 AM

Dave the Gnome wrote: Are you quite sure about that, Stanron?

In the UK section of this forum they/you are not a small minority, they/you are a highly vocal majority.

In the real world we may have to wait for four years for the next General Election to prove me right or wrong.

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 18 Oct 18 - 08:42 AM

I have lost either the plot or the will to live. Time for a bit of light relief.

It is the year 2137. Brexit has still not happened. Theresa May is still prime minister

Unfortunately we still have to put up with Boris Johnson because he lives on as an artificial intelligence synthesised from his Telegraph columns.

Michael Gove is still waiting his turn too, although he’ll be an unusual prime minister because he’s mutated into an immortal slime mould colony.

:D

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 18 Oct 18 - 09:42 AM

Slime moulds are ace. They can live as single cells, but they can aggregate together to form multicellular reproductive structures. If you break up such a multicellular structure the individual cells will try to recombine. They are fascinating. Do not diss slime moulds by comparing them with Michael Gove.

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 18 Oct 18 - 09:59 AM

:-D

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 18 Oct 18 - 10:31 AM

Save yourselves - DON'T deal with Trump. He's a bully in "business" like Walmart is to all of it's vendors, they just want the best "deal" for themselves regardless of if they drive other companies out of business or harm people in the process.

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 18 Oct 18 - 11:09 AM

Yep SRS, that's what some of us keep trying to tell the Brexiteers who are creaming their jeans at the thought of 'Taking Back Control'. But of course they aren't 'taking back control', they're handing absolute control to the people who are desperate to sell the U.K. down the river in a trade deal with Trump's Amerika.

Stoopid is as stoopid does.

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: DMcG
Date: 19 Oct 18 - 01:00 AM

Arguably, the "take back control" was a bigger lie than the bus. The argument in short was that if decisions are made by our politicians and we don't like them, we can elected a different set next time. Which is true, but ignores that fact that there actions while in power are not necessarily reversible. In particular if they sell something off to the private sector, it cannot easily be undone. And control of that sector is then largely lost. Equally any trade deal involves giving up some control in exchange for whatever you are getting. Depending on the deal, it might be a tiny amount or substantial, but whichever it can be very difficult or expensive to reverse. Witness the obstacles to Labour's plans to "take back control" of the railways.

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 19 Oct 18 - 02:02 AM

Come on, DMcG, there's no point presenting our Resident Brexiteer Ostriches with fact and logic. No doubt one or other of them will be along in a minute with more conflicting horse-pucker from 'Seaman' Staines....

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 19 Oct 18 - 02:03 AM

'Horse-PUCKEY'!!

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 19 Oct 18 - 04:55 AM

And we may not even be able to watch TV!

Sky warns Disney and Discovery of no-deal Brexit blackout

How will the Brexiteers deliver the promised magic unicorns with no Disney channel?

:D

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: DMcG
Date: 19 Oct 18 - 11:56 AM

I find it interesting that some politicians who are very keen on taking back control as an abstract concept are far less interested in the government being in control in practice.

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: DMcG
Date: 19 Oct 18 - 01:46 PM

"Some politicians who are very keen on taking back control as an abstract concept are far less interested in the government being in control in practice" is a fact. I am sure everyone on this thread could name some.

And that I find it interesting is another fact.

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Iains
Date: 20 Oct 18 - 03:22 AM

Interesting article on the border problem and simple demographics.


A Nation once again

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: DMcG
Date: 20 Oct 18 - 03:52 AM

There is a lot of truth in that article, I think. I agree it is possible Brexit could make a united Ireland arrive earlier than it would otherwise. But the opposite is also true: the DUP's stance is driven as much by preventing reunification, in my opinion, than any of the proposed benefits of leaving the EU. And hence delaying reunification is a major factor in what sort of Brexit we end up with, albeit indirectly. The "border in the Irish sea" is arguably the biggest single factor whether unification is earlier or delayed.

But some people - McGrath was one I think - were saying much the same as that article even before the vote.

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Iains
Date: 20 Oct 18 - 11:04 AM

My view is that it is something that only the north and south can decide. For the EU to pick on it as a blunt hammer says a lot about the character of the EU negotiators, that they are prepared to weaponise an issue, that any rational person can see, has the capability of reopening old wounds.
That they are quite happy to run the risk of reawakening sectarian warfare in order to bludgeon a brexit/nexit agreement gives a clear indication of what sort of governance some are more than happy to embrace.
Not for me I am afraid!

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: DMcG
Date: 20 Oct 18 - 11:15 AM

Well, my view is that because of the Good Friday Agreement and the fact it must be the line along which the EU and the UK interact (since the word 'border' some find problematical) means that for anyone who thought about it at all before voting this was self evidently going to be a problem. It is not, I would say, the EU weaponising the problem but the UK failing to think about it, as they failed to plan so much else. Even now, when Brexiteers talk about it they only seem to see it as a trade issue, so all their plans forget about the political and social aspects and only talk about financial paperwork.

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 20 Oct 18 - 01:00 PM

A very interesting article here giving the view of a German commentator, and showing their regret at the lemming-like behaviour of the UK in general and our esteemed and revered PM in particular.

BTW, I'm joking about May being 'esteemed and revered'.

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 20 Oct 18 - 03:09 PM

Backwoodsman
Once again you link to an article which supports your viewpoint, but which spouts crap. Definitely supporting your view:
They'll be left in their water-damaged homes with no heating oil and no aspirin --
Aspirin is manufactured in USA and China (so we don't have to rely on EU supplies) It is also manufactured by Aspar pharmaceuticals. (in the UK)
Once one comment in any article can be shown to be totally crap, surely it calls into question anything else in that article.

You believe what you wish. But by quoting crap articles you are associating yourself with crap views.

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Oct 18 - 03:18 PM

WHERE DOES THIS LEAVE THE "WILL OF THE PEOPLE" SHAM, I WONDER

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Iains
Date: 20 Oct 18 - 03:56 PM

If Corbyn and Labour's response to Brexit is not already a pantomime of confusion we now appear to have an argument within the party as to whether bullying trumps brexit. It could only happen within Labour. What fine entertainment!

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2018/10/17/labour-facing-civil-war-bercow-bully-row/

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 20 Oct 18 - 05:19 PM

"If Corbyn and Labour's response to Brexit is not already a pantomime of confusion we now appear to have an argument within the party as to whether bullying trumps brexit. It could only happen within Labour. What fine entertainment!"

Supported by an article from the Torygraph? As The Beast of Grantham once said, "They would say that, wouldn't they?".

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: DMcG
Date: 20 Oct 18 - 06:44 PM

Where does this leave the "will of the people" sham I wonder?

With regret, I think it leaves things completely unchanged. It will be argued, with some justification, that it was made up almost entirely of people who voted Remain in the first place, and we already knew there were millions of those. There were some 160 coaches from all over the country: if we said 50 in each, that still makes the whole thing largely Londoners, which we knew was remain in the first place ... The arguments for ignoring it will be widespread.

However, since there was a march it is essential it was large. Farage's event in Harrogate pro-Brexit mustered 1,200. Even a figure much larger than that but just a smidgen less than the 100,000 originally suggested would be used to make the argument that the media and a few fanatics (on Mudcat!) care, but the ordinary person doesn't.

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Oct 18 - 06:54 PM

"We send the EU £350 million a week. Let's fund our NHS instead."

Nigel, you do realise, don't you, that "instead" in the above is intended to persuade the whole populace, not just clever interpreters of nuance, that the NHS was going to get the £350 million (a lie as it happens: the net contribution is far less) that would otherwise go to the EU? Or do you perhaps believe that the statement was aimed only at those with degrees in semantics and that the rest of us undeserving ignorantes could go hang?

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Oct 18 - 03:40 AM

" It will be argued, with some justification, that it was made up almost entirely of people who voted Remain in the first place, "
Ythe interviewees on the demonstration indicated that this was not the case
The only way May has maintained a majority in Parliament is by bribing a sectarian party to vote for her, using taxpayers money - even that is crumbling
Democratic or what!!
Brexit was never a democratic decision - it was decided on a 'populist' call to keep immigrants out and it has now infested the western world, first with Trump, then with with neo-fascist governments throughout Europe - all jumping nn 'let's get rid of the immigrants' bandwagon'

I've steereed clear of this forum since I realised that the right here had 'Mod on its side' - seemed little point i continuing.
But standing back and watching the Little Englanidism in full flow has been educational, to say the least
"Brexit is democratic" - "Ireland should leave the E.U" - who are these people and what part of the Universe do they occupy?
I understand that yesterday's demonstration was onluy the first - the organisers need the get their act together before the lemmings take Britain over their Rule-Britaniaism cliff
Jim Carroll

Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Iains
Date: 21 Oct 18 - 03:51 AM

Brexit was never a democratic decision - it was decided on a 'populist' call to keep immigrants out and it has now infested the western world, first with Trump, then with with neo-fascist governments throughout Europe - all jumping nn 'let's get rid of the immigrants' bandwagon'


        Votes        %
Leave        17,410,742        51.89%
Remain        16,141,241        48.11%
Valid votes        33,551,983        99.92%
Invalid or blank votes        25,359        0.08%

DEMOCRACY IN ACTION!

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: DMcG
Date: 21 Oct 18 - 04:04 AM

" It will be argued, with some justification, that it was made up almost entirely of people who voted Remain in the first place, "
The interviewees on the demonstration indicated that this was not the case

The Telegraph show what I mean by how it will be argued. This is the start of an article, the rest is behind a paywall. It is possible that section completely reverses the introductory tone, but I doubt it:

Berets, juvenile posters, and EU-themed wigs: Did the ‘People’s March’ dispel any of its stereotypes?

According to its official line, the so-called "People’s Vote" campaign is neither for nor against Brexit - it merely wants the electorate to “have a say” on the final deal.
But looking among the many thousands of placards, banners, and t-shirt slogans between Park Lane and Parliament Square in London yesterday, it was curiously impossible to spot a single pro-Brexit message.
The slogans ranged from the mainly conventional and often amateurish - “Stay Sane and Remain”, “We are the People Too” - to various, predictable anti-Tory insults. But there were also the odd jarring or downright offensive notes, including one poster joking about the government’s recent appointment of a suicide minister,...

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Iains
Date: 21 Oct 18 - 04:15 AM

The People's Vote March
At yesterdays rally (attended by an unknown number according to the Metropolitan Police)
London Mayor Mr Khan told the crowd: "What's really important is that those that say that a public vote is undemocratic, is unpatriotic, realise that in fact, the exact opposite is the truth.

"What could be more democratic, what could be more British, than trusting the judgement of the British people."

Surely the judgment of the people was expressed with the brexit referendum?

Has anything changed, other than the remainiacs increasing levels of hysteria?

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: DMcG
Date: 21 Oct 18 - 04:29 AM

The level of information has changed, which is substantial. The likely consequences of the deals, while still probablistic, have different probabilities now. (I know some don't regard changes in probabilities as changes in facts, but they are). They are many statements from business on how they may react to a bad deal. Yes, "may react. This is not "will'. Nor is it "won't"

Even leavers are very concerned that the deal we end up with may be very different from the deal they voted for, hence all the BRINO stuff.

Yes, a lot has changed.

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Oct 18 - 04:54 AM

" remainiacs increasing levels of hysteria?"
Fuheress Thatcher preferred the term "rentamob" which summed up here contempt for bot the people and democracy, just as it does here
Brexit no longer has majority support - it hasn't even had it in parliament without a massive bribe
It was always based on a plea to xenophobia, but even that has been over-redden when the consequences became clear
If the leavers were so confident that they could win again, they would have no opposition to a second referendum - nothing has changed - my arse it hasn't

Brexit has debased the image of Britain and its people throughout the world - it has painted us as hate-filled Little Englanders who have never really left the Empire
Throughout all this it has strengthened neo-nazism - it has put scum like Tommy Robinson back on the streets and has empowered monsters like Trump and Orban - achievements to be proud of!!!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Iains
Date: 21 Oct 18 - 04:58 AM

I think I would prefer probabilities to be mre accurately expressed as possibilities. Both sides are jockeying and posturing and we have no idea as to the behind the scene discussions. We merely know what we are told. A no deal   hurts the EU equally, but the EU cannt be seen to be soft because Italy is lurking in the wings watching closely. The euro is a very dodgy currency and the disparate economies of the EU will likely tear it apart, if diktat continually comes from the center.
We have clearly seen the evil gnomes of Brussls and Strasburg care not a fig for the common man and will allow nothing to impede their rush to federalism. History shows that taking more and more powers to the center and ignoring the populace only has one eventual outcome.

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Oct 18 - 05:24 AM

"care not a fig for the common man"
Not like those who refer to them as "rentamob" or "remaiiacs" of course
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Iains
Date: 21 Oct 18 - 06:00 AM

Since you have a fixation on young tommy, 500,000 voted for him! How many were on the march?

It puts a rather different perspective on the March than the headlines would have us believe.

I believe it is called "vocal minorities!"

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Iains
Date: 21 Oct 18 - 06:14 AM

Brexit has debased the image of Britain and its people throughout the world - it has painted us as hate-filled Little Englanders who have never really left the Empire


Anglophobic nonsense at it's worst. Nearly 1/2million non British voters were allowed to vote in the referendum. Who knows their voting intentions?

Wonder why that never hit the mainstream. Cypriots, Maltese and Irish were allowed to vote.


https://www.rt.com/uk/340061-irish-commonwealth-eu-referendum/

It rather nails the stupidity of the insulting term "little englander"

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Iains
Date: 21 Oct 18 - 06:18 AM

And now to more serious stuff from Guido.
A petition to put the face of St Maggie of middle england on the £50 pound not.



https://order-order.com/2018/10/15/petition-put-maggie-new-50/

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 21 Oct 18 - 06:27 AM

"Rush to federalism": As we are a large and influential member of the EU there can be no "rush to federalism" without our say-so. We have the veto.

"True democracy in action": Well, democracies are predicated on universal suffrage, true enough. But in a TRUE democracy the electorate is properly and honestly INFORMED before being asked to vote. We live in a country in which, at best, lip service is paid to political education; at worst, it's frowned on. Of course, we have the radio and the telly, oh, and social media, God help us. And we also have the Mail, the Sun and the Express and blogs by far-right idiots, all of which deal in confirmation bias on a very shallow level, ruthlessly manipulating the electorate into one chosen political direction whilst demonising those on the other side. An electorate well-educated in politics wouldn't be anywhere near as easy to manipulate, but that is what we have not got. Both sides in the referendum campaign exploited this in the most unprincipled manner, by lying, misrepresenting and making totally unjustified predictions. The trouble with giving just voting statistics in order to declare that "true democracy" was served is that this aspect is completely ignored. Asking people to vote on a huge issue about which they are deliberately kept uninformed and misinformed, and which is in essence giving them an irrevocable decision, has nothing to do with TRUE democracy, and anyone who claims that it is could use a good dose of political education themselves.

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Iains
Date: 21 Oct 18 - 06:32 AM

But in a TRUE democracy the electorate is properly and honestly INFORMED before being asked to vote.

Lets be having a few examples of the above since universal suffrage was introduced.

You confuse ideals with reality. Do you read the Guardian?