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Brexit #2

Dave the Gnome 19 Oct 18 - 04:55 AM
Iains 19 Oct 18 - 04:28 AM
Backwoodsman 19 Oct 18 - 02:03 AM
Backwoodsman 19 Oct 18 - 02:02 AM
DMcG 19 Oct 18 - 01:00 AM
Backwoodsman 18 Oct 18 - 11:09 AM
Stilly River Sage 18 Oct 18 - 10:31 AM
Dave the Gnome 18 Oct 18 - 09:59 AM
David Carter (UK) 18 Oct 18 - 09:42 AM
Dave the Gnome 18 Oct 18 - 08:42 AM
Stanron 18 Oct 18 - 08:36 AM
David Carter (UK) 18 Oct 18 - 08:17 AM
Backwoodsman 18 Oct 18 - 08:00 AM
Backwoodsman 18 Oct 18 - 07:55 AM
Dave the Gnome 18 Oct 18 - 07:51 AM
peteaberdeen 18 Oct 18 - 07:47 AM
Iains 18 Oct 18 - 07:23 AM
Stanron 18 Oct 18 - 07:03 AM
Iains 18 Oct 18 - 05:14 AM
Backwoodsman 18 Oct 18 - 05:09 AM
David Carter (UK) 18 Oct 18 - 05:02 AM
peteaberdeen 18 Oct 18 - 04:15 AM
Backwoodsman 18 Oct 18 - 02:38 AM
Backwoodsman 18 Oct 18 - 02:20 AM
DMcG 18 Oct 18 - 01:51 AM
McGrath of Harlow 17 Oct 18 - 08:54 PM
Iains 17 Oct 18 - 01:29 PM
Nigel Parsons 17 Oct 18 - 11:42 AM
Dave the Gnome 17 Oct 18 - 09:53 AM
DMcG 17 Oct 18 - 05:44 AM
Keith A of Hertford 17 Oct 18 - 05:37 AM
DMcG 17 Oct 18 - 05:36 AM
Iains 17 Oct 18 - 05:30 AM
Backwoodsman 17 Oct 18 - 05:08 AM
Dave the Gnome 17 Oct 18 - 04:40 AM
Nigel Parsons 17 Oct 18 - 04:31 AM
DMcG 17 Oct 18 - 02:12 AM
Backwoodsman 16 Oct 18 - 04:47 PM
Nigel Parsons 16 Oct 18 - 04:38 PM
Nigel Parsons 16 Oct 18 - 04:32 PM
Iains 16 Oct 18 - 04:27 PM
David Carter (UK) 16 Oct 18 - 04:19 PM
DMcG 16 Oct 18 - 04:18 PM
Stanron 16 Oct 18 - 04:17 PM
The Sandman 16 Oct 18 - 04:11 PM
Stanron 16 Oct 18 - 04:11 PM
Raggytash 16 Oct 18 - 04:09 PM
Iains 16 Oct 18 - 03:49 PM
DMcG 16 Oct 18 - 03:32 PM
Iains 16 Oct 18 - 02:37 PM
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Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 19 Oct 18 - 04:55 AM

And we may not even be able to watch TV!

Sky warns Disney and Discovery of no-deal Brexit blackout

How will the Brexiteers deliver the promised magic unicorns with no Disney channel?

:D


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Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Iains
Date: 19 Oct 18 - 04:28 AM

"Come on, DMcG, there's no point presenting our Resident Brexiteer Ostriches with fact and logic."

Seems to me your fact and logic is exemplified by progressively more hysterical opinions based on postulated outcomes.

But never let fact intrude on flights of fancy,it would spoil the story.


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Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 19 Oct 18 - 02:03 AM

'Horse-PUCKEY'!!


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Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 19 Oct 18 - 02:02 AM

Come on, DMcG, there's no point presenting our Resident Brexiteer Ostriches with fact and logic. No doubt one or other of them will be along in a minute with more conflicting horse-pucker from 'Seaman' Staines....


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Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: DMcG
Date: 19 Oct 18 - 01:00 AM

Arguably, the "take back control" was a bigger lie than the bus. The argument in short was that if decisions are made by our politicians and we don't like them, we can elected a different set next time. Which is true, but ignores that fact that there actions while in power are not necessarily reversible. In particular if they sell something off to the private sector, it cannot easily be undone. And control of that sector is then largely lost. Equally any trade deal involves giving up some control in exchange for whatever you are getting. Depending on the deal, it might be a tiny amount or substantial, but whichever it can be very difficult or expensive to reverse. Witness the obstacles to Labour's plans to "take back control" of the railways.


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Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 18 Oct 18 - 11:09 AM

Yep SRS, that's what some of us keep trying to tell the Brexiteers who are creaming their jeans at the thought of 'Taking Back Control'. But of course they aren't 'taking back control', they're handing absolute control to the people who are desperate to sell the U.K. down the river in a trade deal with Trump's Amerika.

Stoopid is as stoopid does.


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Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 18 Oct 18 - 10:31 AM

Save yourselves - DON'T deal with Trump. He's a bully in "business" like Walmart is to all of it's vendors, they just want the best "deal" for themselves regardless of if they drive other companies out of business or harm people in the process.


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Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 18 Oct 18 - 09:59 AM

:-D


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Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 18 Oct 18 - 09:42 AM

Slime moulds are ace. They can live as single cells, but they can aggregate together to form multicellular reproductive structures. If you break up such a multicellular structure the individual cells will try to recombine. They are fascinating. Do not diss slime moulds by comparing them with Michael Gove.


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Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 18 Oct 18 - 08:42 AM

I have lost either the plot or the will to live. Time for a bit of light relief.

It is the year 2137. Brexit has still not happened. Theresa May is still prime minister

Unfortunately we still have to put up with Boris Johnson because he lives on as an artificial intelligence synthesised from his Telegraph columns.

Michael Gove is still waiting his turn too, although he’ll be an unusual prime minister because he’s mutated into an immortal slime mould colony.


:D


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Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Stanron
Date: 18 Oct 18 - 08:36 AM

Dave the Gnome wrote: Are you quite sure about that, Stanron?
In the UK section of this forum they/you are not a small minority, they/you are a highly vocal majority.

In the real world we may have to wait for four years for the next General Election to prove me right or wrong.


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Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 18 Oct 18 - 08:17 AM

Most of the Americans I know would like the US agro-industrial complex to adopt food hygiene and animal welfare standards more like those of the EU than the ones they get away with now. And in the UK this is not the view of a small minority, it is the view of the majority, particularly of educated people.


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Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 18 Oct 18 - 08:00 AM

A few facts for our Brexit Ostriches to be in denial over...


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Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 18 Oct 18 - 07:55 AM

Is The Times newspaper sufficiently authoritative...??

Or is this something else that our resident BrexShit Ostriches will cheerfully bury their heads in the sand over?


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Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 18 Oct 18 - 07:51 AM

Are you quite sure about that, Stanron?

Revealed: rightwing groups plot to ditch EU safety standards on food and drugs

I know many Americans who are just as concerned with the profit over safety principle.


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Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: peteaberdeen
Date: 18 Oct 18 - 07:47 AM

certainly not the views of a small minority in the UK - many of us are rightly doubt the wisdom of throwing ourselves at the current US government in the hope of getting a favourable trade deal. the president has made it very clear it is AMERICA FIRST!!!! from now on and has no reason to give anything like a good deal to a failing nation on the edge of the richest trading bloke of the world


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Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Iains
Date: 18 Oct 18 - 07:23 AM

I presume this is a fearmongering reference to washed chickens.
chlorine
A Trade agreement is one thing,sorting out the nitty gritty detail is another.
and surely the function of an opposition party is to highlight any such concerns and to fight for whatever may be deemed the best solution.
As the article explains there are very good reasons for the chlorine wash. The EU taking it as an excuse for unproven detrimental practices and poor husbandry is simply hysterical protectionism at its worst.


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Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Stanron
Date: 18 Oct 18 - 07:03 AM

Here in the UK we may on occasion forget that the origins of this forum are American. For our American friends I would like to point out that the ideas expressed in the post of

18 Oct 18 - 05:02 AM

are NOT universally accepted in the UK. It is the view of a small minority.


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Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Iains
Date: 18 Oct 18 - 05:14 AM

"This needs repeating over and over Backwoodsman, brexiters looking to a trade deal with the US are playing Russian Roulette with the health of our children."
I presume a few facts to justify the above statement is not an unreasonable request?


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Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 18 Oct 18 - 05:09 AM

Amen, David.


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Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 18 Oct 18 - 05:02 AM

This needs repeating over and over Backwoodsman, brexiters looking to a trade deal with the US are playing Russian Roulette with the health of our children.


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Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: peteaberdeen
Date: 18 Oct 18 - 04:15 AM

if everybody just ignored our politicians - they would probably just forget about it

'oh yes, i remember that brexit thing...it was about backstopping or something wasn't it? all seems a bit silly now, doesn't it?'


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Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 18 Oct 18 - 02:38 AM

Anybody looking forward to our new trade deal with the US?

Eeeeeeeuuugghh!


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Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 18 Oct 18 - 02:20 AM

Anybody remember, a couple of years ago, Liam Fox saying that the Brexit agreement would be "The easiest deal ever"?

Bwwwaaaaaaaaaaa-ha-ha-ha-haaaaaahhhh!!


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Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: DMcG
Date: 18 Oct 18 - 01:51 AM

Not forgetting that we are considering extending the transition for a year to prevent a backstop we won't agree to taking effect. Which it can't anyway unless we agree to it.


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Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 17 Oct 18 - 08:54 PM

Eggsactly so.
....

This should be the point in this Monty Python sketch of a Breggsit when someone steps up and says "That's enough. It's getting too silly" and we move on to Something Completely Different.

The Backstop stuff is a silly joke too far. The British government signs up to a backstop solution involving checks on goods from Northern Ireland (with its fingers crossed because it doesn't mean it), so as to be able to keep talking about other stuff, and then declares it is all off, and complains that the EU is refusing to play fair because it wants to stick to what had been agreed nearly a year ago.


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Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Iains
Date: 17 Oct 18 - 01:29 PM

There is nothing worse than being eggbound!


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Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 17 Oct 18 - 11:42 AM

Never mind the eggs that are already consolidated within the cake. I just want to be sure that we've stopped providing ingredients for future cakes.


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Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 17 Oct 18 - 09:53 AM

This wonderful gem courtesy of Gary Bainbridge:

LEAVER: I want an omelette.

REMAINER: Right. It’s just we haven’t got any eggs.

LEAVER: Yes, we have. There they are. [HE POINTS AT A CAKE]

REMAINER: They’re in the cake.

LEAVER: Yes, get them out of the cake, please.

REMAINER: But we voted in 1974 to put them into a cake.

LEAVER: Yes, but that cake has got icing on it. Nobody said there was going to be icing on it.

REMAINER: Icing is good.

LEAVER: And there are raisins in it. I don’t like raisins. Nobody mentioned raisins. I demand another vote.

DAVID CAMERON ENTERS.

DAVID CAMERON: OK.

DAVID CAMERON SCARPERS.

LEAVER: Right, where’s my omelette?

REMAINER: I told you, the eggs are in the cake.

LEAVER: Well, get them out.

EU: It’s our cake.

JEREMY CORBYN: Yes, get them out now.

REMAINER: I have absolutely no idea how to get them out. Don’t you know how to get them out?

LEAVER: Yes! You just get them out and then you make an omelette.

REMAINER: But how?! Didn’t you give this any thought?

LEAVER: Saboteur! You’re talking eggs down. We could make omelettes before the eggs went into the cake, so there’s no reason why we can’t make them now.

THERESA MAY: It’s OK, I can do it.

REMAINER: How?

THERESA MAY: There was a vote to remove the eggs from the cake, and so the eggs will be removed from the cake.

REMAINER: Yeah, but…

LEAVER: Hang on, if we take the eggs out of the cake, does that mean we don’t have any cake? I didn’t say I didn’t want the cake, just the bits I don’t like.

EU: It’s our cake.

REMAINER: But you can’t take the eggs out of the cake and then still have a cake.

LEAVER: You can. I saw the latest Bake Off and you can definitely make cakes without eggs in them. It’s just that they’re horrible.

REMAINER: Fine. Take the eggs out. See what happens.

LEAVER: It’s not my responsibility to take the eggs out. Get on with it.

REMAINER: Why should I have to come up with some long-winded incredibly difficult chemical process to extract eggs that have bonded at the molecular level to the cake, while somehow still having the cake?

LEAVER: You lost, get over it.

THERESA MAY: By the way, I’ve started the clock on this.

REMAINER: So I assume you have a plan?

THERESA MAY: Actually, back in a bit. Just having another election.

REMAINER: Jeremy, are you going to sort this out?

JEREMY CORBYN: Yes. No. Maybe.

EU: It’s our cake.

LEAVER: Where’s my omelette? I voted for an omelette.

REMAINER: This is ridiculous. This is never going to work. We should have another vote, or at least stop what we’re doing until we know how to get the eggs out of the cake while keeping the bits of the cake that we all like.

LEAVER/MAY/CORBYN: WE HAD A VOTE. STOP SABOTAGING THE WILL OF THE PEOPLE. EGGSIT MEANS EGGSIT.

REMAINER: Fine, I’m moving to France. The cakes are nicer there.

LEAVER: You can’t. We’ve taken your freedom of movement.


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Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: DMcG
Date: 17 Oct 18 - 05:44 AM

That's awful news, Keith. I will post to the other thread as well.


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Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 17 Oct 18 - 05:37 AM

No more from me folks.
See my chemotherapy thread.
keith.


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Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: DMcG
Date: 17 Oct 18 - 05:36 AM

The ambiguity was all in the destination after voting leave. Many a couple has amicably agreed to go out for the evening then ended up sitting grumpily in front of the TV at home because they could not agree where they would go out *to*. Deciding to leave something or voting for change is easy: the hard part is always agreeing what the change should be.


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Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Iains
Date: 17 Oct 18 - 05:30 AM

Until we have some signed agreements with the EU, both sides are going to post more and more scary scenarios in order to attempt to change and enforce Mp's opinion to their particular stance. It is hard to discuss potential outcomes until negotiations have made some progress and tangible outcomes can be given some kind of precision. Until that time the argument swings back and forth with no progress. One thing we can be sure of, It will not be a land of milk and honey on one side nor off to hell in a handcart on the other. The outcomes so far discussed are but possibilities.

The referendum was a simple cross to one of two questions:
The ballot paper which will allow voters to cast their vote on the future of the UK's relationship with the EU has been published by the government. It asks people if they would like to remain or leave the European Union and to choose their option by placing a cross in one of two boxes

It seemed pretty unambiguous to me at the time. There was no requirement to justify the vote. There was in my view no degrees of leaving. We were to remain
shackled or not shackled, not partially shackled(as seems a strong
possibility)

My feeling is that the democratic vote will be betrayed yet again by our weasel mps. Where this will lead is anybodies guess. The fact we have been/are fighting wars in several countries without public discussion of consent admirably demonstrates the utter contempt Mps have for their electorate and their opinions.


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Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 17 Oct 18 - 05:08 AM

"Cheerfully ignoring the fact that many people were calling for us to leave the EU long before the slogans were written, or the big red bus even thought about."

Ah, you're right, I'd forgotten about the lengthy propaganda campaign in the Express, Torygraph, and The Daily Heil, fighting the corner for their immensely wealthy, tax-avoiding owners.

And there's nothing 'cheerful' about the utter debacle we've been landed with by the Leave voters.


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Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 17 Oct 18 - 04:40 AM

Not just the economic effects.

For those who think that this will only affect the economy, a pretty good summary by Melvyn Bragg in the House of Lords the other day. It is a direct link to the Hansard record and the rest of the debate follows. I have only skimmed the rest but what I have seen does not seem to allay fears in any meaningful way.


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Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 17 Oct 18 - 04:31 AM

You can certainly fool Brexit voters - all it took was a few slogans and a red bus.

Cheerfully ignoring the fact that many people were calling for us to leave the EU long before the slogans were written, or the big red bus even thought about.


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Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: DMcG
Date: 17 Oct 18 - 02:12 AM


The EU wants Northern Ireland to leave the UK and stay in the EU.


No it doesn't. It says the best way of avoiding a hard border is to work to the same rules on goods, but it is not proposing any change to the governance, or that NI should make payments to the EU, or that it must have free movement or anything else about the EU. It would not be part of the EU if the proposal was adopted.

It makes as much, if not more, sense for the Irish Republic to leave the EU and join the UK. Look where the trade goes

The Republic is a self governing independent country within the EU that will do what it thinks is in its own best interests. Having fought to gain that independence from the UK it is hardly likely to give it up to help Brexiteers out.


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Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 16 Oct 18 - 04:47 PM

You can certainly fool Brexit voters - all it took was a few slogans and a red bus.


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Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 16 Oct 18 - 04:38 PM

Oh, and the heading of the John Major bit:
I have made no false promises on Brexit – I’m free to tell you the truth

Despite that, at no time does he actually claim to be telling us the truth. He is just pushing his own opinions. But some people will read the headline, and assume that everything he says is incontrovertible truth.

I think Lincoln got it right:
"You can fool all the people some of the time, and some of the people all the time, but you cannot fool all the people all the time."


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Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 16 Oct 18 - 04:32 PM

From the John Major link:
For centuries, our state schemed and plotted to prevent all Europe uniting against us. Now, we have chosen to turn our back on all Europe. A long line of former statesmen will be turning in their graves.

No, there was never a 'united Europe' looking to oppose England/UK. There were dictators (would be European leaders) such as Napoleon & Hitler who were only stopped from unifying (by force) the countries of Europe, who found England/UK (together with others) were standing against them. The EU, as a political force, seems to be unifying Europe (To the disadvantage of some of its members e.g. Greece) but the people (majority of the electorate who could be bothered to vote) of UK have, by referendum, decided that that is not something which the UK should be part of.


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Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Iains
Date: 16 Oct 18 - 04:27 PM

Raggytash presumably you voted. Let us see you answer your own questions.

The only facts I needed was the proven intransigence of the EU and the headlong rush to federalism. We needed to take back control of our country

Note the correct spelling of country.


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Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 16 Oct 18 - 04:19 PM

How would Ireland being in the commonwealth change anything?


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Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: DMcG
Date: 16 Oct 18 - 04:18 PM

No one in the real world - including Iains - just uses facts. They use facts, and balance of probabilities, and judgement of risks, and considered opinions. It would be impossible to drive, for example, without continually assessing the risks whether a pedestrian is about to step into the road. Waiting until that becomes a fact would guarantee an accident.


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Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Stanron
Date: 16 Oct 18 - 04:17 PM

The EU wants Northern Ireland to leave the UK and stay in the EU. It makes as much, if not more, sense for the Irish Republic to leave the EU and join the UK. Look where the trade goes.


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Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: The Sandman
Date: 16 Oct 18 - 04:11 PM

I suppose there is another alternative ireland joins the common wealth, unlikely, mean while if sinn fein took their seats at westminst the uk might have a governmentnew


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Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Stanron
Date: 16 Oct 18 - 04:11 PM

Oh that cheered me up. John Major, who was so good for the Conservative party that he led to Tony Blair's landslide victory and thirteen years of Labour Party ineptness. And we are supposed to take anything he says seriously! Wonderful.


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Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Raggytash
Date: 16 Oct 18 - 04:09 PM

It's interesting (to a point) that you prefer FACTS Iains.

So tell me what FACTS did you have when you chose to vote leave, what FACTS did you have about the future of the UK.

What FACTS did you have about the prosperity of our country.

What FACTS did you have about a whole plethora of issues that have been raised by Brexit.

Speaking for myself I didn't have any facts, I listened to both sides of the discussion and after much deliberation I decided on the information available at the time that we would be better off, as a nation, to stay within the EU.

Nothing has been shown since that time to dissuade me from that position, if anything the more details of the repercussions of us leaving are revealed, the more I think that I made the correct choice.


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Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Iains
Date: 16 Oct 18 - 03:49 PM

Not much point in responding to his OPINIONS. You may dance upon a pin if you wish, I prefer facts.


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Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: DMcG
Date: 16 Oct 18 - 03:32 PM

Very good opinion piece by John Major

I don't expect any response to the points he makes, naturally.


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Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Iains
Date: 16 Oct 18 - 02:37 PM

It is also extremely foolish to select a limited possibility from a plethora of possible outcomes and present it as fact. English offers a vast vocabulary enabling a precision to be given to statements. Why does the left never avail themselves of this facility?


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