Brexit #2

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Stanron
Date: 22 Nov 18 - 04:33 AM

Raise your glasses to the neverendum.

Two years of planning and negotiation, on the brink of an agreement, but wait, we have to test the will of the people again!

Do we have our neverendums yearly, monthly, weekly or daily, or just until you get the result you want?

This approaches one definition of madness.

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 22 Nov 18 - 04:22 AM

Hoist by his own petard!

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 22 Nov 18 - 02:55 AM

"And you are usually so careful about such things! It would be accurate (so far as the term is meaningful) to say that was the will of the people. To insist it is the will is asserting something that is unknown."

Ha! The Biter Bit! Or should I say "The Nitpicker Out-Nitpicked!"?

Nice one, DMcG!

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: DMcG
Date: 22 Nov 18 - 02:42 AM

So, despite all your attempts to re-write history, the 'democratic will' of the UK (according to our system of democracy) is that we will leave the EU.

And you are usually so careful about such things! It would be accurate (so far as the term is meaningful) to say that was the will of the people. To insist it is the will is asserting something that is unknown.

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: DMcG
Date: 22 Nov 18 - 02:12 AM

When you say May is unpopular and could be replaced, Nigel, who did you have in mind to replace her who is more popular?

Recent 'popularity poll'

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 21 Nov 18 - 08:32 PM

Answer the question, Stanron. You are trying to claim that the EU can circumvent vetoes. I asked you for a single example of that having happened during our membership. Thing is, it never has happened. I suggest you find something else to try to scare us with.

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 21 Nov 18 - 08:25 PM

Well, you see, Nigel, you said you couldn't understand why deeply unpopular leaders in democracies are still in office. So I patiently explained to you that we have elections every few years, in these democracies of ours, that help to redress such things. I had to explain to you that we don't have military coups in democracies that remove unpopular leaders. If there's anything else about democracies you don't get, do let me know. I'd be pleased to explain it all to you in words of one syllable.

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Stanron
Date: 21 Nov 18 - 08:24 PM

You think that the future is twaddle?

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 21 Nov 18 - 08:17 PM

"I'm pleased to see you admit that, without our influence, the EU will do stuff of which we do not approve. I have no confidence that an unwanted veto could not be circumvented."

You may have no confidence, old chap, but you can't point to a single instance during our forty-odd years of membership in which any "unwanted veto" of ours, or of anyone else's for that matter, has been circumvented. It's just more twaddle, isn't it, Stanron?

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: bobad
Date: 21 Nov 18 - 07:59 PM

Do you understand democracy?

Hear, hear!

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 21 Nov 18 - 07:43 PM

You don't really understand democracy, do you, Nigel?

Yes, I do.
I understand that in the UK, when a referendum is called, and a majority vote in favour of a given proposition, that is taken as the will of that majority. Our democracy makes no allowance for how those who chose not to vote, or failed (for some reason) to exercise their right to vote, might have voted. So, despite all your attempts to re-write history, the 'democratic will' of the UK (according to our system of democracy) is that we will leave the EU.

Do you understand democracy?

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Stanron
Date: 21 Nov 18 - 07:27 PM

I'm pleased to see you admit that, without our influence, the EU will do stuff of which we do not approve. I have no confidence that an unwanted veto could not be circumvented.

As to half our trade being with the EU, yes we do buy stuff from them, and it's more than they buy from us.

Did you know that if we sell stuff to America, China, Australia or anywhere outside the EU and the ship it is in visits the EU on it's way that is counted as trading with the EU? The same for stuff coming into the UK. Half our trade with them is probably a false figure.

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 21 Nov 18 - 07:14 PM

"It says much for the level of democracy within those countries that they can have 'highly-unpopular leaders'. If they are so democratic, why are those leaders still in place?"

You don't really understand democracy, do you, Nigel? They were popular enough to get elected. They are still in place because their democratic electoral systems have yet to boot them out. But democracy demands that that potential is always there. Perhaps you're implying that unpopular leaders in democracies should be ousted by military coups. I think we should be told...

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 21 Nov 18 - 07:06 PM

This latest tack, of demonisation of the EU on the grounds of there being a conspiracy to create an empire, etc. (a strained variation on the theme that we'll get "ever closer union"), has the ring of desperation about it. Even without the UK in the EU, the proposition is completely wacky. And the irony is, following their logic, which I don't, is that the best way to avoid what they're scared of is for the UK to stay in the EU. In the same way, the best way to avoid there being a European army is for the UK to stay in the EU. There's no doubt that the UK leaving the EU will rock Europe. Which is precisely what the world doesn't need right now. As things stand, the EU is by far the safest place on earth for democracy on anything like a global scale. India is chaotic and corrupt. China has a dictator for life and doesn't give a flying shite about human rights. I've just covered half of the world's population. The US as a democracy is dying on its feet. Don't get me started on the Middle East or Brazil. I can't understand people who want to see the demise of the EU. It would be the end of democracy on this planet. There's literally nowhere else. If we stay we can fight all the EU's myriad absurdities from within. Outside, they will do things that we don't want and which will be to our detriment and on which we will have no say. Yet we'll still be doing half our trade with them. Leaving the EU at this juncture would be an incredibly stupid mistake. Only the ideological blind would now support that.

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 21 Nov 18 - 06:43 PM

"Mr Very Angry" is an idiot. Modern-day France and Germany are solid democracies (currently both with highly-unpopular leaders).
It says much for the level of democracy within those countries that they can have 'highly-unpopular leaders'. If they are so democratic, why are those leaders still in place?
In contrast, Mrs May's days may be numbered.

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 21 Nov 18 - 06:40 PM

From: Raggytash
Date: 21 Nov 18 - 02:49 PM
Well, lets see.
Over 4 hours have elapsed since I last posted.
I asked if either Nigel or Iains could provide some positive reason for anyone to subscribe to the UK leaving the EU.
This is not the first time I have asked such a question, in fact I've been asking the same question for 30 months.
Needless to say neither Nigel or Iains have replied to my quite straightforward and simple question.
You have to ask why they cannot, or will not, answer.

Answer?
Maybe you need to re-read your own (most recent) post of 10.13 am:
From: Raggytash - PM
Date: 21 Nov 18 - 10:13 AM
What I find to be so difficult with the point of Brexit as told by people like Iains and Nigel is that they want people to follow them but cannot tell us just where they are going, or just what the future will hold.
They tell us life will eventually be "better" but they cannot quantify what they mean by "better" or even when that eventually will be.
That is akin to being blindfolded and lead by a deaf, mute and blind man on a walk on a narrow cliff top path.
It's probably going to end in disaster.

Maybe there has been no answer (to your question) because you only made a statement of your own opinions. There was (as far as I can see) no question posted.

To fail to ask a question, and then to demean the people who 'fail to answer it' is a very dubious tactic!

As to the analogy of being lead by a blind, deaf, mute, at least he will still have the sense of smell to enable him to lead you away from the shit-pool you've been wallowing in.

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 21 Nov 18 - 04:16 PM

Remarkable how the Brexiteers witter on about the Remain campaign's supposed 'Project Fear', yet all we get from Brexiteers is.....their own version of Project Fear'. Not a positive fact, or even projection, from any of them, just forecasts of doom, doom, doom for the EU's Member States.

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 21 Nov 18 - 04:12 PM

Ideology?

Idiotology, more likely!

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 21 Nov 18 - 03:14 PM

Easy, Raggytash. Ideology.

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Raggytash
Date: 21 Nov 18 - 02:49 PM

Well, lets see.

Over 4 hours have elapsed since I last posted.

I asked if either Nigel or Iains could provide some positive reason for anyone to subscribe to the UK leaving the EU.

This is not the first time I have asked such a question, in fact I've been asking the same question for 30 months.

Needless to say neither Nigel or Iains have replied to my quite straightforward and simple question.

You have to ask why they cannot, or will not, answer.

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 21 Nov 18 - 02:33 PM

"Mr Very Angry" is an idiot. Modern-day France and Germany are solid democracies (currently both with highly-unpopular leaders). In order to create an "empire" they would have to act as a single sovereign power (impossible, I'd say, as that would require their own democracies to be ditched) and sweep aside 26 other democracies, each of which is highly individualistic and possessed of national pride, in order to reign over them. Well we'd have to endure the collapse of western civilisation to get anywhere near anything like that. The structure of the EU simply does not permit moves in that direction, what with powers of veto all over the place and a constitution that requires unanimous consensus on all major issues. Quite frankly, it's just ridiculous talk. I suppose it makes an unrefreshing change from hearing about "having our laws imposed on us by unelected bureaucrats in Brussels." I'd say the chances of your fearmongering prediction coming about are around 0.00001 percent. And with the UK in the EU, 0.000001 percent.

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Nov 18 - 01:19 PM

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Nov 18 - 01:18 PM

"The laddie is a little behind the curve on this one!"
Which appears to be a confirmation that you don't wish to participate in this discussion
You wer asked again to substantiate your accusations
I suggest you don't make them again if you have no intention of backing them up

Good analysis of the catastrophic BOMBARDIER pull out from Northern Ireland as the shape of things to come in Brexit Britain AFTER LATEST ANNOUNCEMENT
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Iains
Date: 21 Nov 18 - 01:16 PM

"If you don't wish to be part of this discussion - piss off"
Most erudite!

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Iains
Date: 21 Nov 18 - 01:10 PM

As Mr very angry said:
"Over the Millennia Europe, or rather other Continental nations, have suffered as either Francophone or Germanic nations have sought to build 'Empires' in Europe by violence. Over the last three centuries - approximately - us Brits have spent blood and treasure defending victim nations from one or other of these Teutonic or Latin aggressors, most notably twice in the 20th Century. Now we have the combination of the French and German bureaucracies (they have realised that they can dispense with the strutting would be Emperors of earlier times) seeking to build another Empire. You can be sure that this will end in tears. And Brexit might be the catalyst that stops this grand folly. And why would any real Brit want to be enslaved to such a construct?"

Very well summarised in my view!

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Iains
Date: 21 Nov 18 - 12:59 PM

The laddie is a little behind the curve on this one!
https://order-order.com/2018/11/20/french-finance-minister-calls-europe-become-empire/

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Nov 18 - 11:36 AM

Typos - "the refuge of a moron, tp paraphrase
You have been asked on innumerable occasions to substantiate your abusive claims - you refuse to do so
To say you have been found wanting would be to understate
You would need a very large box to talk down to the smallest of us here, which is what you always attempt to do - very much like the Wizard of Oz with his Big megaphone from behind a screen   
If you don't wish to be part of this discussion - piss off
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Iains
Date: 21 Nov 18 - 11:18 AM

arumnet?? Is that to use in our fisheries nicked by the EU?

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Nov 18 - 11:03 AM

"First one must demonstrate that the argument has been understood."
Stop making excuses
You do this every time, first you disparage the arumnet without replying then you insult the poster, as you are doing now
It's about time you manned up and took part in this discussion instead of avoiding it with insults you are not in the position to make
Man up for christs sake
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 21 Nov 18 - 10:19 AM

Is it really too much to ask that quotes from others' posts are made in quotation marks and italicised?

I manage to do it, so it really isn't that difficult, and it would save those of us with real lives interminable time trying to make sense of posts, who said what, yadda, yadda.

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Raggytash
Date: 21 Nov 18 - 10:13 AM

What I find to be so difficult with the point of Brexit as told by people like Iains and Nigel is that they want people to follow them but cannot tell us just where they are going, or just what the future will hold.

They tell us life will eventually be "better" but they cannot quantify what they mean by "better" or even when that eventually will be.

That is akin to being blindfolded and lead by a deaf, mute and blind man on a walk on a narrow cliff top path.

It's probably going to end in disaster.

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Iains
Date: 21 Nov 18 - 10:13 AM

First one must demonstrate that the argument has been understood.
As you frequently demonstrate your inability to understand(as above) any further discussion is obviously an exercise in futility.

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Nov 18 - 09:52 AM

"Infantile nonsense ! Yup! A fine summary of your post"
Prove it with argument, not with your infantile insulting - as is your wont
Your hit and run cowardice is becoming tedious
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Nov 18 - 09:28 AM

I think it worth reiterating that Europe is a collection of capitalist states working together to benefit their system - not to change it into something else
It is knee-jerk crassness to bring "communism" into the equation
Any "communist" worth his/her salt wouldn't be working for their ideals by supporting Europe
As far as I am concerned, Europe serves the people of the countries involved as well as any capitalist state will in the present situation
It is significant that those who dragged Britain into Brexit were Ultra rights like Farage, using ultra right arguments - "it's all the fault of those foreigners" -
The ultra-right have prospered by the populaism used to get Britain out, with the inevitable result; a rise in racism and the the re-emergence of long-dead policies and parties
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Iains
Date: 21 Nov 18 - 09:17 AM

Dpmn't know who this is aimed at but, as far a I know, nobody here had ever proplosed the replacing of the present British system wita communist one
Reds under the bed has no place her unless you are prepared to substantiate your accusations with examples
Won't homd my breat
Infantile nonsense ! Yup! A fine summary of your post. Always helps when you understand what has been said before jumping in,
A forlorn hope, I am sure.

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 21 Nov 18 - 08:23 AM

And to save Nitpicking Nigs the trouble...I meant 'Righty'.

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 21 Nov 18 - 08:22 AM

"Isn't it wildly optimistic to expect those who are Communist in all but name to disagree with the demise of the nation state?"

Isn't it wildly optimistic to expect those who are Righy-Extremists to eschew hysterical McCarthyism?

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Nov 18 - 08:21 AM

"Isn't it wildly optimistic to expect those who are Communist in all but name to disagree with the demise of the nation state?"
Dpmn't know who this is aimed at but, as far a I know, nobody here had ever proplosed the replacing of the present British system wita communist one
Reds under the bed has no place her unless you are prepared to substantiate your accusations with examples
Won't homd my breat
As far as the crass "nobody knows, let's wait and see" stupidity
Ant leadership who takes such a radical step as adopting a policy that will leave the nation in the dark (for trenty ****** years) has no right to describe themselves as leaders - the quoted phrase "lemmings" in today's press is more appropriate
Nobody can predict the nuts and bolts of future economical or political events, but in order to plan policy, a general direction has to be mapped out.
Can't wait for the next buget speech when the chancelor stands up and tells the nation - This is what we are going to do - no idea if it'll work or not"
Infantile nonsense !
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 21 Nov 18 - 08:17 AM

Emmanuel Macron has a term of five years as the President of France, at the end of which he can be replaced. He will have no lasting influence on whether or not the EU becomes a federal government but, by remaining in the EU, the UK can prevent that happening by virtue of our elevated status within the 28 Member-States, and our Veto.

The Brexit foisted on the majority of the British public by a small minority in a badly-flawed, advisory-only Referendum is, effectively, permanent.

The Brexit that The Praying Mantis is trying to push us toward will keep us tied to the EU, subject to many of its rules and regulations, but with no say in the formulation and application of those things.

The alternative Brexit to that proposed by The Praying Mantis - the 'No-Deal' hard Brexit - will leave us at the mercy of the US and China - effectively a vassal-state, reliant on them for trade, but too small and weak to influence the terms of trade agreements in our favour.

Time to abandon the whole stupid escapade, reverse A50, and remain with our friends in the EU.

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Iains
Date: 21 Nov 18 - 08:16 AM

Except should of course be excerpt( before the pedants awake!)

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Iains
Date: 21 Nov 18 - 08:11 AM

https://unherd.com/2018/11/even-superforecasters-dark-brexit/

Predictions are hard, especially about the future, as Niels Bohr may have said. But that doesn’t stop people making them.

Except:"He had nearly 300 pundits make an average of 100 predictions each, and then saw how well they did over the coming months."

"What he found was that pundits’ calibration, on average, was no better than random guessing – or, as Tetlock described it, “than a dart-throwing chimpanzee”.

That sez all you need to know on the subject!

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Stanron
Date: 21 Nov 18 - 08:05 AM

Isn't it wildly optimistic to expect those who are Communist in all but name to disagree with the demise of the nation state?

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Iains
Date: 21 Nov 18 - 07:57 AM

This is how Der Spiegel analyses Macron:
But he now wants to transform the elite project into a citizens' project and is proposing reasonable steps toward democratic self-empowerment of European citizens against the national governments who stand in each other's way in the European Council.
Call it federalism, call it empire, it is a vow to destroy the nation state. That in a nutshell is the problem! Tell me stevie, where is your national veto in the nightmare above? Answers on a postcard please!

You can bend it, twist it, shake it but those are weasel words he uses. If you wish to interpret his words through a happy clappy pinky fog of lefty ideology that is your affair. Some of us prefer to think for ourselves

http://www.spiegel.de/international/europe/juergen-habermas-on-the-european-vision-of-emmanuel-macron-a-1174721.html

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: DMcG
Date: 21 Nov 18 - 07:47 AM

The twenty year timeframe misses the differences between succeeding and failing. You may not be able to tell if something is success until it has completed every stage, but you can detect failures much much earlier. If we used a space flight as an analogy you cannot say it has succeeded until the very end, but there are lots of points - launch, first stage separation, reaching orbit and so on.

And that is true of most things: you can detect something had failed/not-yet-failed many times and much earlier than the eventual success.

So you can see if Brexit is on course for success at least monthly over that 20 year period.

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Nov 18 - 05:33 AM

"Let us revisit the question in 20 years and see who was correct"
Sums up Brexit perfectly - nobody knows what will happen -
Economists have predicted that the adverse effects of Brexit will take this long to stabilise (if they ever do) - no responsible economic system can possibly survive on that basis, as the economists have stated over and over again - they need to plan.

Pause for a list of how many bad policies the Economists have backed from Guido the Gobshite
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 21 Nov 18 - 05:30 AM

Righty-Toadie is as Righty-Toadie does, Steve.
By their righteous stupidity (and their brown noses) shall ye know them.

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 21 Nov 18 - 04:59 AM

Perhaps you should look up the word "empire" in a dictionary, then tell us (not forgetting, of course, that the power of veto exists in the EU) how precisely you think an EU ""empire" could ever come about. Aspirational calls for such an entity have about as much credibility as the calls by extremist Islamists for the destruction of Israel. In other words, not a cat in hell's chance. As for a pan-European army, let me repeat for the umpteenth time: while the UK remains a member of the EU, that army can never come about. We've vetoed it. You're indulging in rather brainless and deceitful scaremongering. Finally, as for my analysis, at least I'm giving you one. There's no analysis from you, merely the chunderings of a right-wing blogger and unsupported links. You don't try very hard at all, except for your diligent and constant resort to confirmation bias.

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Iains
Date: 21 Nov 18 - 03:48 AM

Macron the muppet.

https://www.nationalreview.com/2018/11/emmanuel-macron-pan-european-army-crackpot-idea/

and from the gruniard:
History suggests an EU that could evolve into a new Holy Roman Empire: a confederation of states, some big, some small, some little more than cities, like Monaco, San Remo and Lichtenstein.

France calls for EU 'empire' and warns of euro break-up in next crisis
https://www.telegraph.co.uk › Business
Napoleon dictatorship RETURNS: France sparks OUTRAGE as as ...
https://www.express.co.uk › News › World
The EU Is Looking Like Europe's Next Failed Empire - Bloomberg
https://www.bloomberg.com/...09.../the-eu-is-looking-like-europe-s-next-failed-empir...
French Minister Wants EU to Become 'Empire' - Sputnik International
https://sputniknews.com/.../201811121069731439-french-minister-european-empire/

More than a couple of headlines suggest shaw's restricted analysis is away with the faeries. The usual posturing from the loopy left.

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 21 Nov 18 - 03:42 AM

In twenty years' time I'll almost certainly be pushing up the daisies and I won't give a damn. But my children will, and it's their future I care about - probably Right-Royally fucked-over by you Righty toadies-to-the-wealthy who voted to enable their tax-avoidance schemes.

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Iains
Date: 21 Nov 18 - 03:29 AM

Let us revisit the question in 20 years and see who was correct. I am confident!