Brexit #2

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Aug 18 - 05:05 AM

David,
Not true Keith, the EU ban on British boneless beef exports was lifted in 1999.

The EU lifted the ban but Germany and France continued with it anyway.
The EU found they were acting illegally and when France persisted it was fined, though obviously it never paid.

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 07 Aug 18 - 04:58 AM

And before you say that you were speaking about England, not The UK, my interests are in the UK, not in England.
To an extent, Nigel. Don't forget that over on the other thread you said that if it came to it and the only way to achieve Brexit was to break up the UK, you would support a break up.

I don't recall the comment, but I would imagine it related to the Scottish referendum, and that I favour Brexit. If The Scots would only remain part of UK if the UK remained part of EU then I would be in support of their wish for independence.

Of course, I may have stated it exactly as you show above if the discussion had become heated at that time. But I don't remember that precise quote.

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: The Sandman
Date: 07 Aug 18 - 04:49 AM

Why not have a second referendum

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: DMcG
Date: 07 Aug 18 - 04:45 AM

And before you say that you were speaking about England, not The UK, my interests are in the UK, not in England.
To an extent, Nigel. Don't forget that over on the other thread you said that if it came to it and the only way to achieve Brexit was to break up the UK, you would support a break up.

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: The Sandman
Date: 07 Aug 18 - 04:40 AM

The ban on British beef by EU was not lifted until March 2006!
That give me faith in the integrity of maintaining food quality and concern of the German administrators of Europe, I have crticisms of Europe, but I would rather have the Germans in charge of food than anybody else.

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 07 Aug 18 - 04:37 AM

Voting on whether a single country and culture should be a single entity has always been utter and very dangerous nonsense - partition guarantees a legacy of body-bags for future generations - it always has
What would be oyur reaction if Devon and Cornwall (or more likely Liverpool and The Wirral!) suddenly made a U.D.I.
Would you debate it in terms of breaking England up into pieces or would you describe it as utter nonsense?

You seem to forget we've recently had just that. There was a claim that Scotland wanted to be independent. If the referendum that they held had shown the claim to be true, they would have become independent.
And before you say that you were speaking about England, not The UK, my interests are in the UK, not in England.

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Aug 18 - 04:23 AM

"But that 'intention' must be in the view of the people of the Republic of Ireland."
The "people" had a bloody Civil War over partition - it was only ever accepted because of war fatigue - the famine - the evictions - the forced emigrations - the Land Wars - an Imperialist War - a War for Independence, The Civil War, then permanent immigration...
By 1922, the Irish people had had enough and accepted partition on the understanding it would be a temporary measure
The sectarian repression in the North led to bloody violence in which the British establishment carefully chose its side and became an extension of Northern sectarian oppression takes us right up to our recent lifetimes

Voting on whether a single country and culture should be a single entity has always been utter and very dangerous nonsense - partition guarantees a legacy of body-bags for future generations - it always has
What would be oyur reaction if Devon and Cornwall (or more likely Liverpool and The Wirral!) suddenly made a U.D.I.
Would you debate it in terms of breaking England up into pieces or would you describe it as utter nonsense?
Of course dividin a country up into political or religious pieces is an outrageous action
The Spain/Gibraltar issue is a hangover from Empire as was the farcical Falklands War
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 07 Aug 18 - 04:21 AM

What we need is a government of National Unity, maybe led by Ken Clarke, with the more rational wing of the tory party, LAbour, Lib Dems, SNP, Green, and, if the will come on board, Sinn Fein, to put a stop to this nonsense and put the country back on the right road.

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 07 Aug 18 - 04:11 AM

It wouldn't even be that, John. We've already had a second referendum, on 23 June 2016. That was forced on us by people who have never accepted the result of the first referendum. Of course, they'll pretend that it's all to do with "ever-closer union" and "United States of Europe" bollocks. But that isn't at all where they're coming from. They've been at it since the mid-70s, way before any of that arose. Yet the self-same people, the ones who agitated for forty-odd years for a second referendum, will tell you that we are being undemocratic in calling for a rethink. Yet they called for a rethink even after we remainers won a two-thirds majority. They won by a wafer-thin margin in 2016, unlike us in the seventies, yet according to them it's us who are "undemocratic" in calling for reconsideration.

So, as the leavers have had to wait forty years for a reconsideration, why do remainers expect one almost immediately?

Thank you for confirming how long there have been calls for a referendum on leaving. That fact may surprise those who keep insisting that the only motivation is reducing immigration.

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 07 Aug 18 - 03:51 AM

Not true Keith, the EU ban on British boneless beef exports was lifted in 1999. What remained until 2006 was a ban on the export of live cattle. And possibly on beef on the bone, which is reasonable, we certainly weren't eating beef on the bone for a long time after the ban on general beef products was lifted.

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 07 Aug 18 - 03:51 AM

"but your comments don't always appear to be consistent."
Not really Nigel
The underlying intention of Ireland has always been to remove a partition that was forced upon them- pride of nation is part of the psyche of the Irish people
But that 'intention' must be in the view of the people of the Republic of Ireland.
You have stated yourself that even within the last decade only 11% of people in Northern Ireland wanted unification.

This is like claiming that there is a clear wish for unification between Spain and Gibraltar, as it's the wish of the majority. That would only be true because of the much larger population in Spain compared with Gibraltar. Gibraltarians overwhelmingly wish to remain part of UK.

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: DMcG
Date: 07 Aug 18 - 03:46 AM

And it is interesting to think what would happen post Brexit. Would the UK impose a ban on its own products? Possible, but I think unlikely. So each importer would choose whether and when to impose a ban on importing, and then we have a long exercise afterwards convincing each of them to drop the ban. I haven't checked but as far as I remember I think there was some EU support and limited compensation for the UK farmers when cattle were destroyed. If so, would the UK government do the same?

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Aug 18 - 03:44 AM

AUGUST 1999
The official end of the export ban is celebrated by farmers as the first consignments of animals due for export are prepared for slaughter and a marketing drive - centred on France - begins.
The farmers are subsequently angered when France and Germany announce they will not lift their bans on British beef because they have further questions over their safety.

NOVEMBER 1999
EU food safety commissioner David Byrne announces the start of legal action against France for refusing to lift the ban.


DECEMBER 1999
French PM Lionel Jospin says his country will not lift the ban and threatens to take the EU to court for trying to force it to take British beef.

FEBRUARY 2000
The European Commission begins legal action against Germany for its failure to lift its ban.

MARCH 2000
Germany agrees to lift its ban but France maintains it will not. Legal action against Paris goes ahead.


The ban on British beef by EU was not lifted until March 2006!

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4785610.stm

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 07 Aug 18 - 03:35 AM

Correctly so Dick, the reason was to prevent the transmission of CJD, and to prevent the presence of CJD in British beef undermining confidence in other European products, including British products.

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: The Sandman
Date: 07 Aug 18 - 03:30 AM

in case we forget, March 27, 1996
The European Commission imposes a world wide ban on all British beef exports.

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: The Sandman
Date: 07 Aug 18 - 02:39 AM

As a nation they seem to be meticulous in their thouroughness.

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: The Sandman
Date: 07 Aug 18 - 02:35 AM

We do not have to go very far back in time, to remember the BSE beef scandal, The one people I would trust to be thorough in maintaining reasonable quality of food are the Germans

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: The Sandman
Date: 07 Aug 18 - 02:31 AM

Both Australia and America are now saying they will only do a deal to supply the UK with food if we drop out standards. Well done brexiteers. Hormone laden beef and chlorinated chicken from now on I suppose."
A strong argument for not eating meat, you are right we should have a right to decnt quality food , and my impression of Germany is that it insists on high standrds of food as much as it can throughout Europe, i
I am not happy to trust Trump or mny other country to insist on as high a standard, it is ridiculous to suggest that everything about Europe is bad.

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Aug 18 - 08:16 PM

"but your comments don't always appear to be consistent."
Not really Nigel
The underlying intention of Ireland has always been to remove a partition that was forced upon them- pride of nation is part of the psyche of the Irish people
Since Independence (of sorts) in 1922 the Irish have been dependent on friendly nations with its nearest neighbour, mainly as a plane to emigrate to with a practial chance of returning home easily, so they adopted a 'don't rock the boat' pragmatism
An example of this is the fact that up to twenty years ago there has only been one major work Ireland's greatest disaster - the Famine, which was written in the 1960s by an Englishwoman - no point of rubing our neighbour's noses in what they did
The blossoming of the Irish Economy - 'The Celtic Tiger' (thanks to the E.U.) largely removed that dependency (the 150th anniversary saw a landslide of serious and uncomfortably frank books on Irish history under British rule.
These things are never straightforward
Now Brexit has made Britain a liability - hence the return to the old dream of a United Ireland
I am in no way a nationalist, but I hope I live to see that one
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Aug 18 - 07:55 PM

"Sacred shitless" sounds like the deification of a bad bout of constipation. Actually I think I'd be scared shitless of a bout of sacred shitlessness. I'll have a rethink and let you know.

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Aug 18 - 07:26 PM

"Apologies, 'second referendum' should have been 'a further referendum on whether to accept the deal the government and EU have agreed on, or a 'hard Brexit' with no deal'."

It wouldn't even be that, John. We've already had a second referendum, on 23 June 2016. That was forced on us by people who have never accepted the result of the first referendum. Of course, they'll pretend that it's all to do with "ever-closer union" and "United States of Europe" bollocks. But that isn't at all where they're coming from. They've been at it since the mid-70s, way before any of that arose. Yet the self-same people, the ones who agitated for forty-odd years for a second referendum, will tell you that we are being undemocratic in calling for a rethink. Yet they called for a rethink even after we remainers won a two-thirds majority. They won by a wafer-thin margin in 2016, unlike us in the seventies, yet according to them it's us who are "undemocratic" in calling for reconsideration. Of course, they will tell you how much things changed over those forty-odd years. Well I'll tell you summat. Things have changed a damn sight more than that in the last two years. But the brexiteers are scared shitless of a rethink, and they're sacred shitless of what's going to happen to this country. In that, I suppose, there's common ground with us remainers, if nowt else.

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 06 Aug 18 - 06:19 PM

Both Australia and America are now saying they will only do a deal to supply the UK with food if we drop out standards. Well done brexiteers. Hormone laden beef and chlorinated chicken from now on I suppose.

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 06 Aug 18 - 04:42 PM

From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Aug 18 - 12:28
Don't suppose you'd like to place a bet on the result now
As far as Ireland is concerned - there has always been a desire to unite -

According to an earlier post there has not always been a desire for unification (in the North at least).

From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Aug 18 - 10:10 AM
"An easy claim to make, but virtually impossible to back up without a referendum."
The subject has been surveyed constantly over the last few years
It was estimated nine years ago that only 11% of the Northern Irish people wanted a United Ireland

I fully accept that your knowledge of the Irish peoples is greater than mine, but your comments don't always appear to be consistent.

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Aug 18 - 12:28 PM

"Yes, and surveys showed that UK would vote to remain in EU, and Trump would not be president."
That was before people got a chance to see the results of Britain leaving Europe
Don't suppose you'd like to place a bert on the result now
As far as Ireland is concerned - there has always been a desire to unite - Why wouldn't there be, Ireland is Ireland whatever the Empire chose to call it?
In the North, the population shift alone has made unity a forgone conclusion - now it's only the diehards that wish to remain part of Britain and even they are now realising the implications of doing so - business and the economy is alredy feeling the effects of this idiocy
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 06 Aug 18 - 12:03 PM

Apologies, 'second referendum' should have been 'a further referendum on whether to accept the deal the government and EU have agreed on, or a 'hard Brexit' with no deal'.

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 06 Aug 18 - 12:00 PM

Isn't it rather telling that, when a second referendum is mooted, these BrexShiteers never react by saying, "Bring it on, we won before, and we'll win again!"?

They're bricking it.

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 06 Aug 18 - 10:27 AM

Yes, and surveys showed that UK would vote to remain in EU, and Trump would not be president.
You can no longer trust polls (if you ever could) to give an accurate position on events.
Either people mislead the polls, or they are not set up to query a representative minority.

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Aug 18 - 10:10 AM

"An easy claim to make, but virtually impossible to back up without a referendum."
The subject has been surveyed constantly over the last few years
It was estimated nine years ago that only 11% of the Northern Irish people wanted a United Ireland - a survey two years ago indicated that this had leapt up to 48%
A recent survey has now suggested that a hard Brexit would increase that to 58%
An indication of the accuracy of this is that the DUP no longer have aan overll majority and could be outvoted by the three other parties gareeing to vote against them
Last yra in The Republic the figure for a United Ireland had leapt from around 25% to a little under half the population - more recent reports suggest that something like 65% of the Irish people enthusiastically support the idea
Brexit has done a wonderful job in this respect
The main beneficiaries of the Brexit fiasco in both the North and the South have been Sinn Fein, who are now serious Government contenders
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: The Sandman
Date: 06 Aug 18 - 10:00 AM

re unification of ireland would solve the border problem

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 06 Aug 18 - 09:28 AM

Re-unification of Ireland: That's now the majority wish#

An easy claim to make, but virtually impossible to back up without a referendum.

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Aug 18 - 07:27 AM

"(assuming the Republic want to accept them)"
That's now the majority wish#
A second vote is not in question -
THe second vote over Brexit has been called for because of the shamblic handling of the negotiations, the revelations of the damage that is likely to be done to Britain and the extremist xenophobic policy that a significant enough minority of the British people were persuaded to vote to leave.
Given all these factors, it would be totally undemocratic not to allow a second vote on Brexit - if Governments can change their mind - why not the voters
None of these factors are comparable in any way to a national group being given the right to vote for full independence of their own country
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: DMcG
Date: 06 Aug 18 - 07:07 AM

Peter Hoskins has tweeted:

Pound hits 11 month low against the U.S. dollar after Liam Fox’s warning of a no-deal Brexit.
Wonder if the Telegraph will do a front page like they did on Mark Carney, when sterling was pretty much unchanged? 

We can't control what the Telegraph does, but we can wonder if the people who were critical of Carney will be equally crutical of Liam Fox.

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: j0_77
Date: 05 Aug 18 - 10:55 PM

@Raggytash and SBP-Cooperator
Well I have no idea, but suspect that it will work out in the usual inter British way, just like it was back in the day. Used be a joke that there is a border between the UK and ROI, because in effect the only thing they stopped travelers for was liquor and tobacco. No passports or any of that sort of silly thing. They were, for most of us, happy times.

But there is enormous changes to property value in the ROI. Some cities are as expensive as UK, so be ready to dosh up a lot of loot if buying a home. Yet there remain bargains in the countryside just like you'll find in the UK.

Retiring there is somewhat of an industry as lots go from here, and Australia etc. I suspect Co. Clare prices are a bit of a shock, - music business and so on- but then who wants to move to a cosmopolitan community even if in Ireland? I certainly would not want that.

Yet I think this BrokesIt will bring folks to their senses and get a better deal for the UK than is now on the table, including retaining the relaxed UK / ROI relationship, so nothing will change for retiring from there to the wee green island.

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 05 Aug 18 - 07:00 PM

From: Jim Carroll - PM
Date: 05 Aug 18 - 09:58 AM
Ironically, it appears that Brexit is the straw the broke the camel's back for Northern Ireland
The gap between those who wish to continue to be part of Britain and those who want a United Ireland has shrunk to an unbelievable extent, turning a long-held wish into a distinct possibility

Fine, give the people of Northern Ireland a vote on whether they wish to continue as part of the UK, or seek to become part of the Republic of Ireland (assuming the Republic want to accept them).
But make it a 'one off' vote, which will commit them for an extended period, and don't allow for a second vote if things don't go the way the EU would like.

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 05 Aug 18 - 02:53 PM

that's the only kind of maniac to be chained to....

who wants to be chained to a maniac who eats his sprouts, remembers your birthday, and shows his wild streak by drinking Earl Grey during The Antiques Road Show.

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: peteglasgow
Date: 05 Aug 18 - 01:25 PM

even when the maniac has the power.....and suicidal tendencies?

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 05 Aug 18 - 01:13 PM

'chained to a maniac'.....I like that!

a pleasing image!

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 05 Aug 18 - 12:59 PM

So j0_77, are you going to give me a legally binding document which will entitle me to move when I retire in 8-9 years?

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Raggytash
Date: 05 Aug 18 - 12:34 PM

Jo77, "they did and they do"

the question is really "will they" post Brexit

Some of us have concerns that they might say "bugger off"

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: j0_77
Date: 05 Aug 18 - 12:24 PM

Re: David Carter (UK). "It would be even better were they to say that English people who want to be in Europe can come and live there."

Well they did, and they do! I have many a time met folks who moved, especially after the Maggie blankety blank Thatcher assault on the Black Country.

A great example is Katie Taylor, you should read her life story. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Katie_Taylor#Education

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: The Sandman
Date: 05 Aug 18 - 11:18 AM

Yes it does not look good, bullshit on both sides , a new uk government in my opinion would be an improvement. but time will tell

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: peteglasgow
Date: 05 Aug 18 - 11:06 AM

scotland too, will not be around for long. iain mcwhirter in the herald recently described the situation for the scottish parliament as 'like being chained to a lunatic' it won't be easy to get away though, the forces of unionism on both sides of the irish sea are strong and aggressive.

for those of us left after brexit in what's left of the UK it doesn't look good. i've always been a socialist and just despair of the current political scene. what hope is there for peace and progressive politics these days?

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Aug 18 - 09:58 AM

Ironically, it appears that Brexit is the straw the broke the camel's back for Northern Ireland
The gap between those who wish to continue to be part of Britain and those who want a United Ireland has shrunk to an unbelievable extent, turning a long-held wish into a distinct possibility
Even former leader of the DUP, PETER ROBINSON has said that his party need to discuss Unity
It seems that the predictions that Brexit could lead to the break-up of the U.K. had some foundation
That is a major problem for May's "Conservative and Unionist Party" as without the D.U.Ps support they can't survive in Government
It's an ill wind.... as they say
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 05 Aug 18 - 08:42 AM

Big Al says:

"Surely the EU should be a great rallying point for Irish people. One subject, they can be united about telling England to bugger off, once and for all.

Sod off England! We want to be in Europe!"

It would be even better were they to say that English people who want to be in Europe can come and live there.

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 05 Aug 18 - 08:37 AM

Thompson, your proposal might make sense, were it not for the fact that fish can swim across the boundary between different country's territorial waters. And they can't read signs telling them when they are about to swim into the waters of a rapacious country which does not adhere to the common fisheries policy.

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 05 Aug 18 - 08:35 AM

McDonalds use producers from everywhere they operate, which is just about everywhere. I havn't a clue what point you are trying to make.

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Thompson
Date: 05 Aug 18 - 05:05 AM

To my mind the Common Fisheries Policy of the EU has been very bad for fish stocks and conservation. If shores were treated like land and each country could fish its own shores it would be a lot easier to conserve fish because you could see who's responsible if a particular area's stocks went down.

Policies like the quotas that ended up with fishermen throwing tons of dead fish back into the sea are just disgusting and have ruined Atlantic fisheries.

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: The Sandman
Date: 05 Aug 18 - 04:59 AM

Jim meaningless to you but not to Dairy farmers, are you denying that there was a winelake or butter mountain asnd now an over production of milk.
David, stop being silly McDonalds say they use european producers, do you also deny there was a wine lake?

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Aug 18 - 04:23 AM

The North Sea was overfished of herring at the time MacColl was making 'Singing the Fishing' at the beginning of the sixties
The fishermen the team recorded said that over and over again and commented bitterly on the effect it had had on the East Coast fishing towns
Parallel Universe about sums it up
Maybe the E.U. started W.W.1 - wouldn't put it past them!!
Dick
Your large, randomly gathered cut-'n-pastes are meaningless as they represent the views only of an unknown reporter working for a little known American publication with links to Europe's main opponent, Wall Street
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 05 Aug 18 - 03:48 AM

Backwoodsman,
"Our fleet was not plundering, it was fishing sustainably in international waters which Iceland suddenly claimed as its own"
That's not how the Icelandic government saw it.

They did not accuse us of "plundering." They just wanted to extend their territorial waters from the then accepted 50 miles to 200 miles in order to expand their own fleet and increase their catch.

David,
The UK fishing industry has been all but destroyed by overfishing by British fishermen. The EU has attempted to conserve stocks. If the British fishermen are let loose again there will be no fish left in the North Sea within 10 years.

I disagree. I do not believe that statement can be justified.