Brexit #2

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 21 Nov 18 - 02:38 AM

Nitpicking Nigs - don't bother. I realise I mistyped 'employed' three words in to my first sentence.

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 21 Nov 18 - 02:35 AM

Again, he's ampoyed the standard diversionary tactics of the Right, by isolating a tiny part of the whole piece - in this case a single word - and perverted it's meaning within the whole piece in order to give a false impression.

He provides a perfect example of the depths of deceit and dishonesty that the Right is prepared to plumb, in order to misinform and delude anyone feeble-minded enough to fall for their chicanery.

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Nov 18 - 03:22 PM

No, either you can't read or you're deliberately trying to mislead us. Today we've had Stanron with his EU/USSR fake equivalence, now you're trying to pretend that the EU is some kind of evil empire-to-come. It isn't, and you need to look back at your source, properly this time. It's saying the precise opposite of what you think it does.

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Iains
Date: 20 Nov 18 - 03:09 PM

The term empire is used in a highly-philosophical sense in that link
In your mind perhaps. The more discerning of us recognise the words used, the context used and prior statements concerning federalism.

Who do you think you are kidding mr teacher(ex)?

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: DMcG
Date: 20 Nov 18 - 02:13 PM

David Davis proves his worth - again!

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 20 Nov 18 - 02:04 PM

Over 30% of people did not vote. To say that they could not make their minds up is a far less ridiculous statement than they could not be bothered to vote. The truth probably lies somewhere between.

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Nov 18 - 02:03 PM

Sorry, but you can't read. The term empire is used in a highly-philosophical sense in that link, not at all in the sense of a superstate with an emperor, the yarn you're presumably trying to sell us. The piece fully recognises the diversity and individualism (and the sovereignty) of the 28 nations. Have another go and desist from the silly scaremongering.

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Iains
Date: 20 Nov 18 - 01:55 PM

https://uk.ambafrance.org/Europe-must-become-a-peaceful-empire-says-Minister
Not just a federal Europe,but an Empire no less!


Goodbye

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Iains
Date: 20 Nov 18 - 12:18 PM

Over 30% could not make up their minds.


DO NOT MAKE RIDICULOUS STATEMENTS

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 20 Nov 18 - 12:12 PM

Every single one of us rely to a greater or lesser extent on what we are told by other people. We weigh the arguments and, when the option is a simple yes or no such as the referendum, we decide which way to vote. The leave team made a better job of lying to the electorate than the remain team did. Which is why more people voted to leave than to remain. Over 30% could not make up their minds. 30 months later the lies have been exposed and the dirty tricks have been revealed.

I, like everyone else, would like to believe I was right in rejecting the antics of the Farage menagerie but I seriously do hope I was wrong about what will happen. Sadly,every reputable source so far confirms my fears. Not one single argument has been put forth here to help allay them. On last performance I suspect that no such assurances will be forthcoming.

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Iains
Date: 20 Nov 18 - 10:56 AM

Give us a list of people who are for brexit that can match the heavyweights fighting to remain.

The rich man in his castle, the poor man at his gate, Both enfranchised, both votes equal.

Wots Muhamed Ali got to do wiv it?

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: DMcG
Date: 20 Nov 18 - 10:43 AM

Might that be because the only people putting forward 'forecasts' are the relentlessly pessimistic remainers.

So why are no optimistic leavers making forecasts? Apart from Prof Minford, of course, who happily lets much of UK farming fail ....

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 20 Nov 18 - 10:19 AM

From: Raggytash - PM
Date: 20 Nov 18 - 10:04 AM
Iains, no one has, as yet, put forward any grounds for the "optimism" that Brexiteers seem to have about the future of the UK.
Almost without fail the forecasts have been bleakly pessimistic.

Might that be because the only people putting forward 'forecasts' are the relentlessly pessimistic remainers.
The 'forecasts' they were putting forward before the referendum, of an immediate black hole in the budget, mass unemployment, and massive tax rises to immediately follow the referendum if we voted 'leave' were all false.

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Iains
Date: 20 Nov 18 - 10:19 AM

My list is 17,410,742 people. That is bigger than your list, and as you are told repeatedly, that is all that matters!

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 20 Nov 18 - 10:12 AM

Almost 100% of economists are against brexit. A large majority of business leaders want to remain in the EU. Scientists, doctors and university lecturers seem to be, in the main, against brexit.

Who is batting for the leave team?

Farage the toad. Gove the snake. Johnson the bufoon. Rees-Mogg straight from the pages of Lord Snooty.

Come on, leavers. Give us a list of people who are for brexit that can match the heavyweights fighting to remain.

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Raggytash
Date: 20 Nov 18 - 10:04 AM

Iains, no one has, as yet, put forward any grounds for the "optimism" that Brexiteers seem to have about the future of the UK.

Almost without fail the forecasts have been bleakly pessimistic.

Now you may have reasonable grounds for your "optimism" but you have not told us what they are and understandably there are many who consider such grounds do not, in fact, exist.

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Donuel
Date: 20 Nov 18 - 09:54 AM

Dave as human traits go I am often wrong for the right reasons.

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Iains
Date: 20 Nov 18 - 09:51 AM

How do you discuss that which has not yet come to pass? All we have so far is proposals and opinion from very dubious experts. You may wish to work yourself into a frenzy over progressively more outlandish rumours that make a feeble attempt to masquerade as facts. Some of us are more
circumspect in our response to such provocations.
We have been told nothing is agreed   until everything is agreed. Otherwise we walk and keep the 35billion. (which increasingly looks like a fine idea)

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Raggytash
Date: 20 Nov 18 - 09:39 AM

Come on then Iains, you've had 30 months to come up with some positive outcomes for the UK from this situation.

So how about sharing them with us, something you and your co-brexiters, have signally failed to do thus far.

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Iains
Date: 20 Nov 18 - 09:30 AM

In over 2 years there has been nothing positive from experts in this field so we should not expect anything from random people on a folk music forum."

Who are the experts? the likes of mystic Meg? Judging by the major contributors here, there are a number of self proclaimed experts.But then one definition of an expert is: "whoever maketh the most noise".

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Nov 18 - 08:46 AM

Oh, and I forgot to mention, in my response to Stanron, another ever so slight difference between Soviet Russia and the EU. When we leave the EU, the tanks will not come rolling into the streets of our capital city. Hardly a difference worth mentioning, eh, though, Stanron? :-)

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Nov 18 - 08:10 AM

May's two major hurdles appear to be the The DUP have declared that they will not vote for the agreement and the Spanish have said tha they will vote against it in the EU parliament unless the Gibraltar question is clarified
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: DMcG
Date: 20 Nov 18 - 08:02 AM

50, not 59. Small keyboards and large fingers are a pain, you know.

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: DMcG
Date: 20 Nov 18 - 08:01 AM

I wrote a few days ago that The government is fighting hard to ensure it does not have the right to cancel the Article 50 unilaterally. 

The UK Supreme Court has just ruled that the case should be heard by the ECJ as planned at the end of the month.

The government insists it will not withdraw Article 59. That is not the point at issue: they could decide not to withdraw it without needing the ECJ to rule they can't.

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 20 Nov 18 - 07:57 AM

None of them can offer anything DMcG. In over 2 years there has been nothing positive from experts in this field so we should not expect anything from random people on a folk music forum.

I would say that the EU does have its problems and by leaving we are distancing ourselves from, for instance, the very poor treatment that Greece suffered. We will also be able to trade with non EU countries without having to apply tariffs. These are the sort of arguments they should expand on but they don't. I suspect it is because they now realise, like the rest of us, that the costs of these 'benefits' is far greater than the gains.

The current government debacle is not about leaving the EU. They know that is the worse possible outcome. It is about saving face and how they can stay in while pretending that they are still fulfilling the 'will of the people'. Brexit supporters are in the same position. They will just not admit that they were wrong, which is a perfectly human trait.

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: KarenH
Date: 20 Nov 18 - 07:43 AM

I note that the Mail today is referring to Rees-Mogg's 'Lemming Plot'. Little as I like the Mail, you have to acknowledge that they manage to find sound-bites that serve their purpose well.

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: DMcG
Date: 20 Nov 18 - 07:25 AM

If I have this right, Stanron, your hypothesis is that in a decade or two the EU will break up. By leaving now we incur a degree of pain - even Raab and Rees-Mogg agree about that - but the summation of that pain plus its consequences are less than the pain if we waited and fell out with everyone else.

What can you offer to support that hypothesis?

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Raggytash
Date: 20 Nov 18 - 06:30 AM

So Stanron basically you have no idea of what benefits, if any, may result from us leaving the EU.

I am not surprised by this. Since the referendum I have not seen a positive forecast from any source whatsoever.

What I have seen is a government in absolute turmoil unable to agree a common strategy to any part of our leaving that will be of benefit to all parts of the UK.

What you, and all the others, can only promise is "pie in the sky"

(with apologies to Joel Emmanuel Hagglund)

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 20 Nov 18 - 06:27 AM

So, as Stanron has fallen at the first hurdle, can any of our other Brexiteer Bright-Sparks give us some actual benefits we will all feel the benefit of after we leave the EU? Guesswork and desperate hopes don't count.

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 20 Nov 18 - 06:22 AM

As I thought, and suggested earlier, you aren't giving us any solid, tangible benefits which we will all feel after Brexit because you can't.

Why am I not surprised?

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Nov 18 - 06:19 AM

"The collapse can be attributed to the financial incompetence which followed a political dogma that suppressed individual initiative and enterprise."
On the contrary; The Soviet Union collapse was aimed at by outside nations who feared 'The Domino effect) from the day it wa established
The "financial incompetence" transformed the former Russian Empire semi-feudal group of countries into a contender on the world stage in four decades, industrialising the State and even throwing missiles into Space, being the first nation to do so (which probably had more to do with their downfall than "industrial incompetence had) - all this, despite massive losses in two world wars and a Civil War which drew in 14 invading foreign armies fighting on the side of the opponents.
The Soviet Union was set up to develop the "initiative" of all its people to the full - one of the rights written into its constitution was "homes for all", rather than our situation which is "homes for those who can afford them"
The downfall of the S.U was due in part to bad, ruthless leadership, but given their starting point, they didn't do to badlly on the world stage, and they did so with the overwhelming support of the people - even in the most oppressive times of Stalin's rule
The same goes for China, who was worse than Tsarist Russia when they started out - overwhelmingly semi-feudal -t a world leader in less than thirty years.
No entrepreneur or fortune seeking enterprise wold ever have started on that path - no profit in it
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Iains
Date: 20 Nov 18 - 06:18 AM

Care to take a little wager on that last statement?

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Nov 18 - 06:16 AM

"Not exactly the same of course..."

Well not quite. The EU comprises 28 sovereign democracies which all must abide by strict human rights standards and the rule of law. In terms of domestic laws, the states are independent. They must abide by laws and regulations to do with trade, tarriffs, quality and welfare standards and environmental considerations that have to be agreed by the democratically-arrived at decisions of all member states, and there is the power of veto, especially by larger states such as the UK, over major issues such as the founding of a European army. The vast bulk of domestic laws in this country have nothing to do with the EU, and in money terms about one percent of our GDP is tied up with the EU. So yes, Stanron, apart from all that we're just like the USSR, aren't we?

In other words, before you post such twaddle here, do bear in mind that you're not talking to a bunch of idiots. Thank you.

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Stanron
Date: 20 Nov 18 - 06:06 AM

So kind of you to describe your own question as damned. The main benefit of being out is that when it all goes pear shaped we will suffer less.

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: DMcG
Date: 20 Nov 18 - 06:02 AM

In am happy to accept the caveat that we will only assess whether motorways are being as lorry parks if there has been no strike in France in the preceding week, or other agreed period. Once the strike has been over for that period, can we then use it as one criteria of success or otherwise of Brexit?

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 20 Nov 18 - 05:56 AM

Very interesting guesswork, Stanron, but your response is the standard Righty-tactic of deflection, and in no way answers the question. So answer the damn question!

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Stanron
Date: 20 Nov 18 - 05:52 AM

Backwoodsman wrote: "Yes. It's about to happen."

Perhaps you could expand on that, and explain to us precisely the benefits we will all experience when it's happened?

Remember the USSR? A union of eastern European states that collapsed after almost seventy years. The collapse can be attributed to the financial incompetance which followed a political dogma that suppressed individual initiative and enterprise.

I see signs that the EU is becoming a kind of western European equivalent to the USSR. Not exactly the same of course but it has it's own dogma, and we have all seen the inflexibile adherence to that, and there is plenty of evidence of financial incompetance.

I'd say that the EU will collapse, or at least change significantly, in the next twenty years. The sooner we are out the better.

Incidentally, remembering that the extreme Left in UK politics has always been Communist, it isn't surprising that they are the strongest supporters of what is now happening in Europe.

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Iains
Date: 20 Nov 18 - 05:50 AM

A Ratner moment as the mail morphs into the gruniard.

https://www.conservativewoman.co.uk/the-mails-gerald-ratner-moment/

Or as a former avid reader tweets:
Started buying the Telegraph this week after 30 years buying the Mail. Will miss Quentin Letts but the new editorial no longer chimes with me, might as well be the Guardian.

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 20 Nov 18 - 05:31 AM

To be precise, Keith and I were only talking about the 'no-deal' case. As to the date and time, it is earlier in this very thread. I said 'below', which is a bit confusing because it depends how you read the threads, but 'earlier' is clear enough. And it was based on fairly measurable things, like whether the motorways are being used as lorry parks three months after March 29th 2019.
As a measure of the effects of Brexit, it needs to be made clear that the above is (presumably) talking about 'semi-permanent' use of the motorways as lorry parks. Let it be clear whether it is because of Brexit, rather than because of strikes in France

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Nov 18 - 05:06 AM

He doesn't agree with me about dogshite, Jim! :-)

I see that the hard-right Tory brexiteers have failed to garner the support needed to bring on a no-confidence vote. The idiots don't seem to realise that their recent tactics have served only to bring her sympathy and strengthen her. No doubt there will be some flaking away of Commons opposition to the deal. The tactic will be to blame MPs who vote against the deal for threatening a no-deal brexit, with the disastrous consequences that would entail. Of course, she has the option of going for another public vote...

Unlike the predictions made in late 1914, this one won't be over by Christmas...

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Nov 18 - 03:37 AM

Thought you would - you usually do
Hope you don't think I don't appreciate having so many guardian angels reminding me that too much makes you go blind :-)
Jim

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 20 Nov 18 - 03:12 AM

"Don't respond, Jim."

Ha! That was Steve, Jim! :-)
But I agree with him....

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Nov 18 - 02:48 AM

"Don't respond, Jim."
Little point Baccy
This feller started off as a bullying wannabe and has turned into an unresponsive Troll who has no interest in either the subject or what others have to say
He doesn't need my, or anybody's responses he has Guido and fellow-Troll Bobad to keep him warm
If this thread is to continue as it should (especially this week) can I suggest that nobody rises to their abuses - their erudition will hardly be missed and their are far more interesting things happening for us to be dealing with dysfunctional children
Onwards and upward
Jim

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 20 Nov 18 - 02:17 AM

Take your time, think carefully about it, and then give us a list of benefits we will all feel from leaving the EU. Not airy-fairy nonsense like "Take our country back", or "Make our own laws" - 'we' won't take anything back, and 'we' won't make laws, those are the province of politicians and their immensely-wealthy puppeteers, and anything they do will be for their benefit, not ours - but real, solid, tangible benefits that will positively impact the daily lives of every man, woman, and child in the UK.

It's not a trick question - it's the question those of us who voted Remain have been asking the Leavers from the very start of the referendum campaign. And we're still waiting for answers.

Over to you Stanron......we won't hold our breath.

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 20 Nov 18 - 01:38 AM

"Yes. It's about to happen."

Perhaps you could expand on that, and explain to us precisely the benefits we will all experience when it's happened?

But I'll bet you can't.

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Stanron
Date: 19 Nov 18 - 10:25 PM

Yes. It's about to happen.

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 19 Nov 18 - 09:48 PM

"Once again can I remind you of my opening post when I asked that people refrained from personal abuse and stuck firmly to the topic of the thread."

It would be far easier to 'stick firmly to the topic of the thread' if our resident Right-Wing Extremist would stop trying to drag it away from Brexit, and turning it into an anti-Labour, pro-Conservative party-propaganda-piece. Typical of the diversionary tactics of the Right when the paucity of their arguments, and the untenability of their position on any given subject, are exposed.

So...after two-and-a-half years of floundering by our incompetent and clueless Brexit negotiators, is there any good news about Brexit yet?

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Nov 18 - 07:48 PM

Corbyn's Sky interview was quite impressive and sure-footed. I disagree with Jezza on lots of things, but his emphasis on protecting jobs (real ones), workers' rights on both sides of the Channel and on environmental issues was good to hear. The interviewer was not one to take prisoners but she never got the better of him.

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: bobad
Date: 19 Nov 18 - 06:14 PM

Yes, Don't respond, Jim, lest you make yourself look more a fool.

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Nov 18 - 06:10 PM

Don't respond, Jim.