Brexit #2

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Jan 19 - 11:38 AM

"I thought only Jim was falling for it now but it seems contagious."
I really have stopped - I heeded what Baccy told me - whoops - what happened there ?
You know what they say - "no sense, no feeling"
Jim

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Jan 19 - 12:33 PM

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Jan 19 - 12:33 PM

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Iains
Date: 04 Jan 19 - 01:04 PM

Ian's, why are you trying to make this a party-issue?

Do not all mps have a vote? Are labour going to abstain when the vote on treason may's deal is put to the commons

Is it a party issue? Is the pope a Catholic?

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 04 Jan 19 - 01:29 PM

As usual, you're talking through your hat. The greedy, nasty Tories caused this disaster, it's their responsibility to sort it out. Nothing to do with any of the other parties (except possibly the terrorist arm of the Conservative Party - the DUP).

Deceitful and spineless. You should hang your head in shame (except, of course, you don't have the grace).

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 04 Jan 19 - 01:49 PM

Sorry DMcG. Just bad timing. My comment was meant much more for Steve and BWM.

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 04 Jan 19 - 01:58 PM

Sorry Dave, just having a bit of fun. It makes me laugh, the way The Nasty Party and their supporters try to turn every disaster they cause by their own incompetenence and deceit back on the Labour Party. Every question JC asks The Praying Mantis at PMQs is responded to with, "Ah but, ah but, what happened when the Labour Party was in power eight years ago?". Just like our resident Right-Wing Extremist, she never answers a question.

Anyway, time to go out and play some music - have a good weekend.

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: DMcG
Date: 04 Jan 19 - 02:11 PM

No problem, DtG. Enjoy the music, BWM! I don't have anything planned until Sunday :(

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Jan 19 - 02:31 PM

"Treason May"
Whatever happened to It's anti British to insult our elected representatives ?
These little Englanders are caricatures
Alf Garnett - where are you when you're needed
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: KarenH
Date: 04 Jan 19 - 02:44 PM

I agree with Dave the Gnome. It's like watching somebody playing with a Jack in the Box toy.

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: KarenH
Date: 04 Jan 19 - 04:01 PM

Sadly, Jim, whom I respect without agreeing with everything he says, together with his 'temper' (his term), are the Jack in the Box.

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 04 Jan 19 - 05:32 PM

Not too much discussion going on here is there - just trading insults.

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Raggytash
Date: 04 Jan 19 - 05:51 PM

I saw a brief bit today that UK universities are very concerned about the negative effects that Brexit could have on them.

I'm lacking access at the moment, due in part to the music having my attention.

Perhaps someone could find a link!

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: KarenH
Date: 05 Jan 19 - 02:11 AM

There is a Guardian article about research projects, staffing etc, EU-based research grants. There is no way the government has the money to replace what the unis seem to have been gaining. But then knowledge is so commodified that once again how far 'we' as opposed to businesses gain is unclear. We'll lose some kudos for sure. And no point in having new cancer treatments unless you can afford the medical fees by the time austerity has finished with the NHS as turned it into a lifestyle advice service as per the aims of the current minister.

https://www.theguardian.com/education/2019/jan/04/a-no-deal-brexit-seriously-threatens-uk-universities

"There are many other serious implications for universities of crashing out of the EU without a deal on 29 March. These span procurement, data protection, the mutual recognition of qualifications and intellectual property. The contribution that universities make to local economies, through employment, services and support for regional supply chains, will also be put in jeopardy. Perhaps most importantly, a no-deal Brexit will compromise the vital research links which benefit wider society, from new cancer treatments to technologies combatting climate change."

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: KarenH
Date: 05 Jan 19 - 02:15 AM

See also The Independent

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/education/education-news/uk-universities-bust-no-deal-brexit-eu-deal-students-finances-bailout-bankruptcy-a8710216.html

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 05 Jan 19 - 03:05 AM

Don't worry, Karen. Someone really clever will be along in a moment to tell you that "It's a sacrifice worth making" in order to 'Take our country back', 'Regain our sovereignty', 'Break free from being ruled by unelected bureaucrats', 'Escape from the undemocratic EU', or any number of other meaningless slogans and sound-bites.

This popped up on FarceBook this morning (although it's from July 2018) - I didn't see what the doctor is saying written on the side of a red bus in 2016 though.

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Jan 19 - 03:26 AM

"together with his 'temper'
I don't have much of a temper - certainly not publicly - irritation, yes, impatience - certainly...
A little pointless singling individuals out when, as I pointed out, we are all prone to it at times (can't remember it happening with you Karen and I wouldn't mention it if I had - too even tempered (and good-mannered :-)
Jim

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Jan 19 - 06:10 AM

Thought I'd share this brilliant (in my opinion) analysis of Brexit from this morning's Irish Times; I think is sums up the situation perfectly and makes some remarkable comparisons - some nice analogies too 'my precious'
Jim Carroll

The Irish Like What The British hate about Europe

Bobby McDonagh Opinion
The sad reality is that our mental geography is increasingly different and that we are now set on different trajectories

Although Ireland will be deeply affected by Brexit, we have to an extraordinary extent been unaffected by the Brexit debate. The main arguments and fears of the Brexiteers are essentially alien to us. We don’t share their wish to return to an imagined past. Unlike the UK today, we are confident about our ability to promote our interests in the modern interdepend world.
Xenophobia in Ireland is not on anything like the scale we have recently witnessed in the UK. Nor do we share the insularity of the Brexiteers. Quite remarkably, today it is the UK rather than Ireland which, in the words of the song, thanks God it's surrounded by water.

In Ireland and Britain, we increasingly perceive reality in quite different ways.
The reasons a majority in the UK voted to leave the EU are, paradoxically, the very same reasons that an overwhelming majority in Ireland want to stay. This is ttrue of each of the six main arguments of the Brexiteers.

An attachment to sovereignty was the first and major reason put forward for Brexit. We in Ireland, however, under¬stand sovereignty in the 21st century as something to be judiciously shared rather t0han as a tribal token to be protected from the sunlight like Gollum’s ring in The Hobbit. Gollum’s plaintive words, as he looks for the ring, could almost be those of Jacob Rees-Mogg speaking about British sovereignty: “We wants it. We needs it. Must have the precious. They stole it from us. Sneaky little hobbitses.”

Second, many Brexiteers want to leave the EU because they believe that it will enable Britain to “go global”. Ireland’s desire to be as global as possible, on the contrary, is one of the very reasons we remain committed to the EU. We under¬stand that there is no contradiction between, on the one hand, developing the closest relations with our natural neigh¬bourhood and market and, on the other hand, developing deeper links with the wider word. Indeed we recognise that the EU has the essential negotiating heft to make global reach effective, as reflected most recently in the EU’s major trade deal with Japan.

‘Taking control'
Third, the Brexit slogan about “taking control” was at the heart of the Leave campaign and has echoed across the British public debate ever since. The immense success of that policy has been on daily display at Westminster. Funnily enough, we in Ireland, in common with our other E U partners, are opting to stay in the EU precisely because we want to have control over the issues that affect us. Many issues, from education to health to policing, will, of course, continue to be controlled largely at national level since the EU can only exercise the powers which all member states have agreed to confer on it. Hut in Ireland we understand that if we want to maximise control over the important issues which by definition do not stop at borders - from trade to energy to international crime - these must be addressed on a cross-border basis; and we know the EU remains the most effec-tive cross-border mechanism in the world.

Fourth, many Brexiteers are driven by the idea that they are putting their country first. But so, of course, do we. The real issue is whether national interests are to be defined narrowly and pursued as if the aim is to be masters of our own little world; or whether, as we believe in Ireland, those interests should be defined broadly and pursued in the knowledge that the real world is necessarily one of interdependence, compromise and shared interests.

Fifth, the most emotive argument for some, though not all, Brexiteers has been about keeping foreigners out. In Ireland, we support the principle of free move¬ment of people and welcome the “new Irish” who are building up our economy, enriching our culture and making us proud to be Europeans.

It requires myopia
Finally, many Brexit voters were influ¬enced by the notion of the UK becoming more “independent”. Some even went so far as to call June 23rd, 2016, “Independ¬ence Day”. It requires myopia, when one thinks of say Finland or Lithuania, for any of our British friends to believe that they alone truly value independence. But it reaches full historical amnesia for any British person to believe they need, as Nigel Farage absurdly has done, to remind Ireland of the meaning of independence.
Independence for us is not something to celebrate in lonely isolation; rather it allows us, to use Robert Emmet’s phrase, to take our place among the nations of the earth.
It has become clear that many Irish and British people now have quite different understandings of the world. The sad reality is that our mental geography is increasingly different and that we are now set on different trajectories. The mature Irish response to Brexit may prove to be the most important assertion yet of our psychological independence.

Bobby McDonagh is a former Irish ambassador to the EU, Britain and Italy

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: DMcG
Date: 05 Jan 19 - 06:28 AM

There is a lot of truth in that Jim. Unfortunately part of the way through it says "developing deeper links with the wider word" which is meaningless: the wider world would have made sense. That will be enough for some to dismiss the entire article (*smile*)

I can't really speak for how the Irish see things, having not visited there for years, but the article does cover some of the differences in how I see things when compared to the Leave rhetoric.

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 05 Jan 19 - 06:42 AM

It's a very good article, and one which lays bare the short-sightedness and xenophobic attitudes of the Brexit-Brigade - something those driving the Leave Campaign recognised existed amongst the UK's population, and which they had no compunction in harnessing in order to achieve their self-serving aims.

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 05 Jan 19 - 07:18 AM

And, in a lighter vein, from the pen of Richard Medrington, seen on FarceBook this morning...

An Absurd poem for absurd times

JABBERMOGGY

"Twas brexig, and the slithy gove
    Strategically supported may.
All chumsy were the boris-moves:
    The country’s fate looked grey.

Beware the Jabbermogg my friends!
    Beware the phobious Eeyahrgee!
They pout and spout for their own ends
    And not for you and me.

Dressed in their daily cloaks of mail
    And breastplates of hypocrisy,
They masquerade on Question Time
    As guardians of democracy.

They sing, “Britannia waives the rules!”
    They want to take us back in time
To days that never did exist
    Save in their mothballed minds.

“No deal! No deal!” their reckless spiel,
    “Procure more ships and call their bluff!
Make Brussells wait; no-go-tiate
    Until they’ve had enough.”

Hast thou a plan, O Jabbermogg?
    An actual plan, that we can quote?
‘Cos if you don’t, we hope you won’t
    Oppose a People’s Vote.

‘Twas brexig, and the slithy gove
    Strategically supported may.
All chumsy were the boris-moves:
    The country’s fate looked grey."

Apologies to Lewis Carroll. Thanks to Elspeth Murray for help with word-wrangling and image-mashing.

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Jan 19 - 07:23 AM

"the wider world would have made sense."
Either a typo or a scanning fault - my fault, i'm sure
Doncha love the Gollum comparison - pretty well in line with the brilliant film depiction
Jim

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: DMcG
Date: 05 Jan 19 - 07:35 AM

You are innocent, Jim (Of that anyway!) The typo is in the original article. And a typo is all it is: anyone can see the intended term. It would be rather desparate if opponents used that as a criticism of the article.

I have shared the link to the original with a few people.

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Iains
Date: 05 Jan 19 - 07:37 AM

Chickens are coming home to roost. Whoops! Where is the henhouse?

https://www.independent.ie/business/brexit/outrage-in-uk-at-irish-plans-to-demand-eu-aid-37679728.html

" Conservative MP Jacob Rees-Mogg responded to the report, claiming: "If we leave without a deal, the main culprit will be the obdurate Irish Government's threats about the phantom Border issue."

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: DMcG
Date: 05 Jan 19 - 07:40 AM

Conservative MP Jacob Rees-Mogg responded to the report, claiming: "If we leave without a deal, the main culprit will be the obdurate Irish Government's threats about the phantom Border issue."


As I said, for Brexiteers it is always someone else's fault. They never accept any responsibility.

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: KarenH
Date: 05 Jan 19 - 08:03 AM

Regarding the article above, its denial of racism/zenophobia in The Republic seems ill-founded. There seems to be a view that a) incidents are under-reported and b) the legislation of the country is not fit to deal with the problem.

A couple of articles, including one from today's Independent

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/reports-of-racist-incidents-in-ireland-are-on-the-rise-1.2750542

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/swastika-synagogue-dublin-ireland-gardai-antisemitism-graffiti-vandalism-a8710381.html

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Jan 19 - 08:28 AM

"Regarding the article above, its denial of racism/zenophobia in The Republic seems ill-founded"
You need to qualify that Karen
The only serious recism in Ireland is towards Travellers
Look at the annual numbers and you will see that, despite the rise, they are actually quite low and very much related to the rise in populish which is emanating largely from the Uk
The Brexiters, in particular Farage, have actually targeted Ireland as their next port of call - so far without success

"Conservative MP Jacob Rees-Mogg"
LADIES AND GENTLEMEN - YOUR NEXT PRIME MINISTER
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: KarenH
Date: 05 Jan 19 - 09:33 AM

Sorry but your idea of 'serious racism' and mine are plainly different.

Black Irish citizens twice as likely to experience discrimination, for example. That sounds serious to me.

Almost 20% of Irish citizens believe some races are born less intelligent. That sounds serious to me.

Part of the problem appears to be under-reporting and a lack of suitable legislation.

All sources for this can be found from the Irish TImes article I linked in my previous post, which in my mind counts as 'qualified' enough.

So, with respect, I stand by my view that Jim is incorrectly denying that there is 'serious racism' in Ireland. Without getting into aspects of claims relating to the concept of 'celtic' which even some Irish historians have felt veered over the line into racism. Too idle to get the source book downstairs but obviously it figures.

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: KarenH
Date: 05 Jan 19 - 09:35 AM

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/he-called-me-the-n-word-i-felt-absolutely-terrible-1.3555524?mode=sample&auth-failed=1&pw-origin=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.irishtimes.com%2Fnews%2Fsocial-affairs%2Fhe-called-me-the-n-word-i-felt-absolutely-terrible-1.3555524


This looks serious to me.

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Iains
Date: 05 Jan 19 - 12:10 PM

"The only serious recism in Ireland is towards Travellers "

Simply not supported by the facts!
Steady rise in racist incidents being reported by public.Crime and discrimination was experienced by people from 22 ethnic backgrounds


https://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/steady-rise-in-racist-incidents-being-reported-by-public-1.3659115?mode=sample&au

RepoRts of Racism in iReland - Irish Refugee Council
4th Quarterly Report of iReport.ie. April-May-June 2014

Ethnicity of Victims
A significant number of cases in this period involved racism against people described as Traveller (25%) highlighting a notable increase
in reporting from previous periods. Reports of racism against people identified as Black however remained consistently high, with incidents
against people identifying as Black-African constituting twenty percent of reports, with a further seven percent of reports pertaining to racism against other Black identities. Although twelve percent of reports are reported as happening to White Irish people, all but two were based on visibly mixed ethnicity, racism against someone with whom the victim had a relationship, or ethno-religious prejudices constituting racism. Incidents against Jewish people constituted
ten percent of reports in this quarter, while incidents against Muslims constituted eleven percent, slightly lower than in the last quarter.People of Roma background again experienced 7 percent of cases reported, while the number of cases against people identifying as non-Chinese Asian rose to 11 percent in this quarter.

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Jan 19 - 02:07 PM

The 2014 report HERE
There are seldom reports of racist incidents, certainly no violent ones in the press or the media and we do have a fairly liberal press
No marches or demonstrations, you never see racist graffiti
Of course there's rcism, but it has not reached visibe proportions
The major rise has followed Brexit

The racist backstop here is in the NORTH
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Jan 19 - 02:07 PM

The 2014 report HERE
There are seldom reports of racist incidents, certainly no violent ones in the press or the media and we do have a fairly liberal press
No marches or demonstrations, you never see racist graffiti
Of course there's rcism, but it has not reached visibe proportions
The major rise has followed Brexit

The racist backstop here is in the NORTH
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Iains
Date: 05 Jan 19 - 05:42 PM

"Of course there's rcism, but it has not reached visibe proportions
The major rise has followed Brexit"
Seeing as Brexit has yet to occur,you are obviously talking rubbish, as well as jumping from the Republic to Northern Ireland. In the Republic your assertion, that after the brexit vote racism increased, is simply incorrect! You are obviously talking about the Republic because your first link was launched in Dublin.

Fact:"Although there have been no reports of an increase of racist incidents in Ireland following the Brexit referendum, there are reports of a constant level of racism present within Irish society. Young, dark-skinned men—especially asylum seekers—seem to be major targets for online abuse on Irish news sites."
(The European Commission: Migrant Integration Information and good practices)
Why do you keep making assertions that are so easily disproved? Have you ever considered checking your facts before posting?

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: DMcG
Date: 06 Jan 19 - 04:27 AM

YouGov poll on impact of supporting Brexit on Labour

Ok, polls are polls, but the commentary on this is, I think, broadly right. What Labour decides to do (assuming May's deal is voted down) will probably determine its chances of winning the next election. As if often the case, it cannot guarantee to win, but it could guarantee to lose.

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Iains
Date: 06 Jan 19 - 05:55 AM

DMcG I do not know why you linked to a yougov survey. According to Jim Carroll (Date: 10 Sep 18 - 08:27 PM )
"- it's a 'survey' from a multi-million stock-exchange marketed company named You-gov with Conservative Party connections whose surveys are all carried out on the internet"
or at least that is the response I received when quoting it one time. My feeling is that like many surveys, it may attempt accuracy,but does not always achieve it.


I suspect labour takes a heartland hammering next time around if they betray brexit. After all brexit support is an integral part of their manifesto, unless they are deceiving their electorate.
What happens after the vote will probably be a sea change of British politics, and Corbyn will be between a rock and a hard place.(as will May)

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: KarenH
Date: 06 Jan 19 - 06:48 AM

Today's Observer reports a survey showing that 'remain' is now ahead of No Deal by 18 points, but ahead of May's deal by even more. The comment is to the effect that views are polarised, with little chance of agreement. Well done, David Cameron.

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Jan 19 - 06:53 AM

"This looks serious to me."
Iains has made my point perfectly Karen - no report of an increase of actual attacks but an increase in on-line ones
On line attacks are usually impossible to trace and uantify in terms of people
It takes one organisation to organise say twenty of its computer-owning supporters to start a hate campaign, which then shows up on the figures as a large increase in racist incidents
If Russia can swing Brexit and the US elections, any tinpot 'Blueshit wannabe outfit in Ireland can impact on racism statistics - they have a roving diplomat now in the form of Farage
France is having the same problem now with the rise of Vox
All this can be confidently chalked up to Brexit, which led the way
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Jan 19 - 07:13 AM

Labour's position on Brexit is total opposition to the May botched deal. Once the deal is voted down, Labour wants a general election. They may get that by tabling a motion of no confidence in the government. If that fails, I should think that Labour would support a new referendum. If that happens and the electorate votes to remain, that is NOT the Labour Party "betraying brexit." As a member of the party I feel frustrated that Corbyn has not been far more assertive in setting out the party's stance, and that will come back to bite him. But let's not forget that the party in charge of brexit is the Tory party. There are people here who ridicule and dismiss Corbyn, so I find it odd that they are braying for him to reveal his stance, which you'd have thought would be of no interest to them, at least until he gets power. I have a feeling that increasing numbers of one-time leavers are now losing courage and are secretly hoping for no-brexit. If that is achieved they'll be accusing us of betraying brexit, undermining democracy, etc, whilst at the same time breathing a quiet sigh of relief.

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: DMcG
Date: 06 Jan 19 - 07:38 AM

As a Labour member as well, I don't find Labour's position quite that clear, Steve. Yes, they oppose May's deal. Yes, they want a general election. But if one is called, what will the manifesto say about Brexit? I fear it might go with this exit-with-a-better-deal-than-may nonsense.

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Jan 19 - 08:20 AM

If Labour is now led by a genuine Socialist, as I believe it might be, they are caught between a rock and a hard place
The E.U. is a collection of capitalist states seeking to make the best of a failing system and that is what they are being asked to support
I very much doubt if I would have voted remain in my more passionate youth - why should I have ever supported an association of states based on a system defending wealth, power, privilege and greed which I find abhorrent ?
I believe supporting stay to be a short term measure - a way to steer the death of a system so that too many people don't suffer
Lets face it, the EU isn't going to do anything to lighten the load on its subjects
As things stand at the moment THIS IS THE ONLY ALTERNATIVE ON THE TABLE
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Jan 19 - 09:26 AM

I've just now been discussing exactly that with Mrs Steve, DMcG. Emily Thornberry was asked about it at lunchtime and was utterly unconvincing. "We'd go back to the EU for a better deal and if the people don't like it they can vote us down," etc. Load of old waffle and not what I'd call an alternative.

Jim, no-one is pretending that the EU is the paragon of all that is good in the world. Is unwieldy, gigantist and riddled with absurd policies. However, it insists on democracy, the rule of law and on human rights in all its member states. Countries which abide by those standards rarely go to war with each other and that has proved to be the case. It insists on high standards in food production and animal welfare, better than almost anywhere else. It pushes for better environmental standards. It allows people to move freely to find work and new places to live. Looking at the world today, in which we have dictatorships in huge countries with aggressive tendencies such as China and Russia, a resurgence of the far right in South America and in the US (where democracy itself is under threat) and despotic regimes all kvetch the Middle East, Europe is qlmostbthe last bastion of denocracy

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Jan 19 - 09:29 AM

Sorry, hadn't finished. Wrong button hit. ...and despotic regimes all over the Middle East, Europe is almost the last bastion of democracy among major political blocs. The fight to overturn capitalism will have to wait. Principles are fine but the urgent interests of this country and the whole of the EU are at stake.

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Jan 19 - 09:39 AM

"However, it insists on democracy"
Not really Steve, it's states pay lip service to democracy jut as we do - how can an an association of capitalist states do other?
The well being of the people of Greece went flying out of the window not so long ago because a democratically elected government couldn't paqy its debts - not muc democracy towards the cradle of democracy there
As far as I am concerned, it's the best thing on offer at the moment - if we forget that we're kidding ourselves
Jim

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Jan 19 - 10:31 AM

Sorry Steve - I dn't finish either
"The fight to overturn capitalism will have to wait."
It doesn't work like that - nobody has ever "set out to destroy capitalism" and won
Systems die when they have run their natural course and can no longer sustain themselves - both Russia and China are prime examples - both were the result of World wars, though it took longer for the Chinese left to get their act together

All the indications now - increasing poverty in Britain widening of the gap between haves and have nos, the option of take whatever job is on offer or do without, the massive contradiction that, wherever there is work, accommodation is so expensive that workers can't afford to live there, no longer having a base of a national industrial system which means that we can never be self-supporting... are all signs of dying system.
If the people's representatives don't do something about it, there are plenty more that will - enough examples of that - even in the E.U. to show that to be the case
GOOD SONG THIS (DESPITE THE SPELLING MISTAKE
Jim

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 06 Jan 19 - 11:40 AM

Labour could quite easily get a better deal than May by dropping her absurd red lines. Most of which lines are to the detriment of the British People. Labour could get a BINO deal which us in the Customs Union, Single Market, Euratom, Horizon2020, Erasmus and the ECJ, but we would be out of the EU and everybody would be happy.

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: DMcG
Date: 06 Jan 19 - 11:45 AM

That may have been possible, David C. But the patience of the EU has been worn very thin. It is quite possible they decide they have appeased the UK enough. After all, eventually even if Labour won the next election, in time another Tory government would be in power and want to start all over again.

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: KarenH
Date: 06 Jan 19 - 11:47 AM

I wish David Carter's hopes were well-founded, but I would be surprised if the EU gave up on freedom of movement. And people like Roos Moggie would be furious about the ECJ.

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Jan 19 - 12:55 PM

The DUP have confirmed they will not accept May's deal and describe it as "Toxic" - no better experts on poison, I suppose!
I suppose this means anther £Billion bung from the taxpayers' coffers
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 06 Jan 19 - 01:45 PM

Karen,

I do not want to lose Freedom of Movement. I see the efforts of May to give this away, even to insist that is give away, as treason. That is the one red line above all others which I want May to drop.

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 06 Jan 19 - 01:47 PM

Corbyn of course, would need to stand up to McCluskey, who seems not to value Freedom of Movement for his members, even to denigrate them for desiring it.