Brexit #2

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Sep 18 - 05:59 AM

He's been like a rash all over a couple of threads since he was unbenched, Karen. It didn't do him any good, unfortunately. It's all just silly little sideswipes and pointless links to right-wing blogs and stuff.

I wonder how it would have influenced the vote if the electorate has been told "You might have to go back to paying astronomical roaming charges. You'll definitely get a really poor exchange rate for your pound. Watch that passport expiry! And your driving licence may be invalid. Still want that fortnight in Majorca? It'll cost you!"

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: KarenH
Date: 15 Sep 18 - 05:42 AM

Which silly bugger, Steve? Iains hasn't posted for weeks. Which is good because I find mixed metaphors with an underlying tone of violence rather dull.

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Iains
Date: 15 Sep 18 - 05:33 AM

Just a few positives prior to brexit. Examples you remainiacs all keep bleating for, and when it is presented the ostrich syndrome kicks in!
and you wonder why your asses keep getting kicked?

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Sep 18 - 05:01 AM

Ignore the silly bugger, Dave. He never adds a bloody thing to the conversation.

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 15 Sep 18 - 04:30 AM

Doesn't Harry Cole do the occasional Guido blog? You know, the long term partner of Carrie Symmonds who is now being shagged by Bo...

Oh, never mind :-)

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Iains
Date: 15 Sep 18 - 04:05 AM

Publishing group that includes Elsevier is to move its corporate HQ to London.

https://order-order.com/2018/09/10/anglo-dutch-giant-relx-moves-hq-london/

Chanel is moving staff to its global hub in London

https://order-order.com/2018/09/14/sacre-bleu-chanel-snubs-paris-london/

Spiffing News! and brought by Guido Fawkes, the man with his finger on the political pulse!

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Iains
Date: 14 Sep 18 - 10:38 AM

and he calls himself a well educated scientist?
'aving a larf aren't we?

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 Sep 18 - 07:12 AM

The whole interview is on YouTube. Sadly, I don't have a whole hour to spare in which to learn how to do links, and, such is the limited capacity left on my cerebral hard-drive, I'd have forgotten again how to do it within the day. You'll easily find it if you try.

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: DMcG
Date: 14 Sep 18 - 07:03 AM

On a different matter, there was an interesting article in the Independant a few days ago about Gibraltar.

Our understandable focus on the Irish border
tends to make us lose sight of how this and other overseas groups are affected.

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Stanron
Date: 14 Sep 18 - 06:56 AM

Link please.

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 Sep 18 - 06:45 AM

Actually, Stanron, what was most entertaining about the Gove interview, in which he was clearly rattled by the extremely alert and astute interviewer, came just after the bit you quoted (misquoted, actually, but hey ho - watch out, Nigel's about) when Faisal, appalled by the "experts" quote, accused Gove of Trump politics. Lovely! Listening back to the interview now, it was just about the most cringeworthy display by a politician imaginable, well, apart from anything by the aforementioned Trump. I had to stop after a few minutes for fear of bursting my corset, so I don't know whether Gove actually named any of the "expert" authorities or individual economists he was lambasting.

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 14 Sep 18 - 06:41 AM

I repeat my latest quote, from politics.co.uk

Returning to campaigning may make Farage feel better, because it returns him to the world of gibbering baseless promises rather than technical horror stories, but it actually complements the narrative of his enemies rather than his friends.

Leave campaign = gibbering baseless promises

Remain campaign = technical horror stories

They were both wrong.

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Stanron
Date: 14 Sep 18 - 06:24 AM

So, "My lie is OK because you can't prove what some one else said was not true"?

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 14 Sep 18 - 06:23 AM

That seems to be a a fair quote of what was advertised on the side of the bus.

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 Sep 18 - 06:19 AM

Nothing like on the same scale as "We send the EU £350 million a week. Let's fund the NHS instead." Did I leave anything out of that quote??

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 14 Sep 18 - 06:18 AM

From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 Sep 18 - 05:42 AM
We negotiate the outstanding money we are committed to paying once we leave. The continual gloss put on that by leavers, that the EU is insisting/forcing/penalising/punishing us/doing it as a deterrent to other member states, is a complete misrepresentation of the position. As I recall, we negotiated our commitment down to that forty billion from a much higher initial figure. I do understand that leavers want to use any stick they can find to beat the EU with. This is not one of them.

As I recall, a certain Steve Shaw did not believe we should be negotiating that sum at all, but paying the much higher figure which the EU had, apparently, plucked from thin air.

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Stanron
Date: 14 Sep 18 - 06:12 AM

Still you remainiacs hide behind partial Quotes. The full quote said that people were fed up with experts WHO KEEP GETTING IT WRONG.

Nah. Let's delete the last five words and tell lies with partial truth.

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 Sep 18 - 05:42 AM

We negotiate the outstanding money we are committed to paying once we leave. The continual gloss put on that by leavers, that the EU is insisting/forcing/penalising/punishing us/doing it as a deterrent to other member states, is a complete misrepresentation of the position. As I recall, we negotiated our commitment down to that forty billion from a much higher initial figure. I do understand that leavers want to use any stick they can find to beat the EU with. This is not one of them.

If we leave with no deal, there will still be money to be paid. And, if the Tory Chancellor is to be believed, whatever we pay to leave will be dwarfed by the cost of the hit to our economy. Then there's Mark Carney... Still you brexiteers are so fed up with "experts," aren't you?

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: DMcG
Date: 14 Sep 18 - 05:18 AM

one thing ministers seem to forget was that the original EU figure was much higher and it only came down the current figure as part of the negotiations. If we leave with "no deal" and remembering nothing is agreed until everything is agreed, the EU's willingness to accept the current figure is also void.

So it is feasible what we have to pay for leaving with no deal is higher, not lower.

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Stanron
Date: 14 Sep 18 - 05:13 AM

Fine. Who was talking about a fine? The end.

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 Sep 18 - 05:09 AM

That is not a fine. That is to meet our legal (and moral) obligations.

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Stanron
Date: 14 Sep 18 - 04:53 AM

Steve Shaw wrote

They are not "insistent on making the UK pay a price."

Nothing happened in negotiations until the UK agreed to a 'Divorce Bill'.

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Sep 18 - 09:14 PM

"The easiest if the EU were not insistent on making the UK pay a price for leaving pour encourager les autres"

They are not "insistent on making the UK pay a price." They are simply sticking to the rules. We are not a special case. There's more than a touch of the little Englander "you do know who I am, don't you?" about your attitude, Nigel.

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: DMcG
Date: 13 Sep 18 - 02:17 PM

Not so, Nigel, or at least not in my opinion.   If both sides were committed to maintaining the same standards and regulations etc - which is why he said it should be easy - then I agree it might be easy. But the UK was clear it wanted to diverge from that, so whatever agreement was put in place would have to deal with that divergence. And differences like that are why such deals take years and are not simple.

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 13 Sep 18 - 02:10 PM

From: DMcG - PM
Date: 13 Sep 18 - 08:03 AM
The 'rose garden'I was referring to was the same Liam Fox saying the EU trade deal "should be the easiest in human history."
Seems a good example of irrational positivity to me.

But he's right. it should be the easiest deal: The easiest if the EU were not insistent on making the UK pay a price for leaving pour encourager les autres

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: DMcG
Date: 13 Sep 18 - 08:03 AM

The 'rose garden'I was referring to was the same Liam Fox saying the EU trade deal "should be the easiest in human history."

Seems a good example of irrational positivity to me.

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 13 Sep 18 - 06:20 AM

Good article in politics.co.uk

Remain is the only part of the political spectrum which looks alive

There is one phrase I love and while I know it is cherry picking, I love it :-)

Returning to campaigning may make Farage feel better, because it returns him to the world of gibbering baseless promises rather than technical horror stories, but it actually complements the narrative of his enemies rather than his friends.

Enjoy.

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 Sep 18 - 04:50 AM

DMcG,
Fox said,
“We have to say there are great opportunities that come from Brexit but that is not a guarantee that everything is going to be rosy on the other side.
“Let’s not have an irrational positivity, but look at the opportunities and look in a balanced way at the pluses we can control. We will be subjected to the same global pressures as before.”

Of course the same global pressures will apply whether we are in or out.
No-one ever claimed that all the problems of the world would disappear.
Us leaving will not change the whole world!

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 Sep 18 - 04:44 AM

David, Labour were first to use that term when they were in government and committed to reducing immigration too.

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: DMcG
Date: 12 Sep 18 - 02:05 PM

From the Times:

Leaving the European Union would not guarantee a rosy economic future for the UK, the international trade secretary Liam Fox has admitted.

In a frank assessment of Britain’s prospects Dr Fox said that fellow Brexiteers needed to beware of succumbing to "irrational positivity".


All together now:
"I beg your pardon,
I never promised you a rose garden..."

..
Oh, we did.

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 12 Sep 18 - 01:45 PM

And Farage, thanks Karen, how could I have forgotten him. He may not be an MP, but he is an MEP, so he has achieved representation (even if he has wilfully refused to carry it out).

And Theresa May is the architect of the "hostile environment" policy. And she is after all Prime Minister now. Now you may not regard a hostile environment as a policy of the far right, but there, Keith, you and I will have to differ.

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 Sep 18 - 01:34 PM

No Far Right anti-immigrant party has reached Parliament here, unlike France, Belgium, Germany, Holland, Denmark, Sweden, Poland, Hungary, Austria, and Italy where they are major parties and dangerously close to achieving government.

And you people want ever closer union with them!

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: KarenH
Date: 12 Sep 18 - 01:00 PM

Re far right representation: The BNP has had some success at local government level, and both Nick Griffin and Andrew Bron were MEPs. And then there is Farage, of course. Before that the NF also had some local government success, and some Tories defected to them so they indirectly gained representation.

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 12 Sep 18 - 12:48 PM

"The Far Right have not gained any representation here"??? What the hell are Boris, and Rees Mogg doing in parliament then? And Andrew Brigden. And Loathsome Leadsome. The far right are in government, Raab is pretty far right. May is not capable of standing up to them.

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 Sep 18 - 07:45 AM

I will never forget seeing open racist abuse on a pavement café the day they announced Brexit

We have a long way to go to catch up with the major EU states on racism.
Muslim women are banned from covering their face in France, Belgium, Denmark and Holland.
Not on one day, but all the time.

The Far Right have not gained any representation here, but are aggressively gaining legitimacy in France, Belgium, Germany, Holland, Denmark, Sweden, Poland, Hungary, Austria, Italy,.....

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: bobad
Date: 12 Sep 18 - 07:30 AM

Please tell me something horrible about the other side, I'll believe anything.

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Iains
Date: 12 Sep 18 - 07:14 AM

If you cannot play the race card, play the brexiteer stupidity card.
Remember those in favour of brexit could make similar observations about remainiacs. But they do not.

Compare with the bell curve, and where the majority lie for intelligence. Constant swearing and insult hurling does not suggest remainiacs lie to the right of said bell curve. What does that say about stupidity and referendum majorities?

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: KarenH
Date: 12 Sep 18 - 06:18 AM

While I would be more than happy to agree that there was a lot of racism behind the anti-EU vote, I can also see that some people (eg Kate Hoey and the RMT union too, I believe) opposed the EU on genuine constitutional/democratic deficit grounds. Let us not forget that some on the left opposed our initial membership on leftist grounds.

I will never forget seeing open racist abuse on a pavement café the day they announced Brexit (some about a person having the cheek in the view of the racist to wear a Sari in this country, and some from a waiter in the next door café who believed 'we' were 'going to get our jobs back').

And though the democratic deficit points may sometimes be made in an exaggerated way, there is a problem in this areas. One could also point to the way Greece was treated.

I'm sure there were decent people who believed the stuff about how money that is spent on the EC would be used for public services including local councils instead (which I did not; this government is ideologically committed to tax and local services cuts).

Ironic, since the right always objected to Europe because it involved the social chapter, workers' rights, working time directives and other stuff that eroded the sort of 'freedoms' beloved of the right.

What happens won't just be about the sort of 'deal' we get with Europe, or the reductions in food standards to be expected in future trade deals, or the changes in power structures with companies able to take governments to courts in some proposals, it will be about who is in power at the time and their politics.

So while I'm sure a lot of dim people voted Brexit on racist grounds, feelings whipped up by Farage and his ilk and sure to get worse given Bannon's involvement in European politics, I don't think you can call them all thick!

But those who imagined there would be a lot more money to spend on stuff for ordinary people are in for a disappointment. And this is without the loss of scientific co-operation, EU based security, EU grants and subsidies which benefited a great many of the Brexit-voting communities and so on.

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: DMcG
Date: 12 Sep 18 - 02:21 AM

If we pass with a deal, everything depends on what the deal is, Stanron, but I agree with Steve than whether either he or I can buy wine is approaching the bottom of the list of concerns.

But let's imagine 'no-deal' instead. The Whitehall auditors have found Defra is not ready. The side deals Raab seeks for airlines are reliant on the EU countries breaking ranks, and to top it off the police are preparing for civil disorder (andJavit will not rule out the idea this could last three months.

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 11 Sep 18 - 02:11 AM

"Backwoodsman. As fine a man as ever bestrode this planet."

Gawrsh Steve, you ole flatterer, you sure can toyn a goyl's head! :-) ;-)

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 Sep 18 - 08:28 PM

I'm at a loss as to why you think that the only priorities I have are my wine and my holidays. It may seem a little odd to you Tories, but some of us lefties have a little more than self-interest on our minds.

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Stanron
Date: 10 Sep 18 - 07:51 PM

Steve, let's pretend that come next March 29, my birthday as it happens, we exit the EU with a deal that is passed by Parliament and rubber stamped by the Lords, what then? I am assuming that you will still be able to buy your favourite wines from your usual supermarkets, still be able to go on foreign holidays and all that. Will it still be a disaster?

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 Sep 18 - 07:31 PM

Backwoodsman. As fine a man as ever bestrode this planet.

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Stanron
Date: 10 Sep 18 - 07:17 PM

Who's John?

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 Sep 18 - 07:07 PM

From John's link:

"Make no mistake about this, it was a mostly racist vote. This is why presenting facts to leavers makes no difference. You think you’re discussing Brexit with them, but they’re not. You are simply wasting your time. This also explains perfectly why Leavers are not angry about being lied to and basically getting scammed. It still gave exactly what they wanted."

Couldn't agree more. And, speaking for John and me I reckon (sorry, John!), it's precisely why we regard leave voters as feeble-minded.

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 Sep 18 - 07:02 PM

Barnier is a scallywag who blows with the wind. There has been no progress. Of course he wants a deal. But he won't accept Chequers without compromise. The Tories won't accept Chequers as they think it's already a massive compromise. I'd love you to tell me how the twain will meet. It's a shambles. We're in big trouble.

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 10 Sep 18 - 06:20 PM

Says it all....

https://inktank.fi/i-spent-a-day-on-pro-brexit-facebook-pages-this-is-what-i-discovered/

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Raggytash
Date: 10 Sep 18 - 06:15 PM

I suppose that depends on the deal ........

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Stanron
Date: 10 Sep 18 - 05:53 PM

Anyone seen tomorrow's headlines?

Barnier says deal possible in 6 to 8 weeks.

Are we still all doomed?

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Donuel
Date: 10 Sep 18 - 10:29 AM

I missed an appointment by 10 days and I said "Lets not nit pick".
I was charged $30 for a missed appointment.

Brexit will probably happen late at an extra expense.