Brexit #2

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 08 Jan 19 - 11:05 AM

50!

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Jan 19 - 11:08 AM

Sorry Karen - you're not responding to what asked, which I find disappointing
I have had several years of Ian's abuse, as has many of us here
If my asking him to be stopped (muzzelled - is not comparing hinm to wa wild dog, it is a simple request for he to be stopped from insulting people
I attempted top stop this several years ago by gathering together his insults and putting them up on the threads he had posted them to - didn't work
I asked the mods to stop him - didn't work
I asked him to stop - didn't work
He continues to abuse me (not so much others now)
His insults have now reached the stupid stage of racist attacks (somewhat stupid as He and I are the same race and nationality)
ou want me to accept this politely - sorry - I don't think I have anything to add - in fact I don't think I have anything to add about anything to anybody
I'll leave you to it, I think
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Raggytash
Date: 08 Jan 19 - 11:22 AM

Promise?

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Jan 19 - 11:23 AM

Promise Raggy
Jim

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Iains
Date: 08 Jan 19 - 11:33 AM

byesy bye!

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 08 Jan 19 - 01:46 PM

Now that was a very sensible post. Touch wood.

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: bobad
Date: 08 Jan 19 - 01:48 PM

Wishful thinking.

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Raggytash
Date: 08 Jan 19 - 03:41 PM

Teresa May has suffered a commons defeat today as a result of the perceived chance of the UK leaving the EU with a no-deal scenario.

I suspect this will be the first of several setback for her and the government.

Could someone please link to the article in todays Guardian @Teresa May suffers........ '

Thanks

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: DMcG
Date: 08 Jan 19 - 04:05 PM

Guardian article

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Raggytash
Date: 08 Jan 19 - 04:17 PM

Thanks

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Raggytash
Date: 08 Jan 19 - 04:40 PM

There is another Guardian commentary on Brexit entitled 'The Guardians view on Brexit: the Government has failed - it's time to go back to the people'

It reflects some, if not most, of my views on the subject and is worthy of consideration. I recommend you read it.

Could someone please provide a link.

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 08 Jan 19 - 08:11 PM

The big worry about going back to the people would be that there might be a vote for a no deal Brexit. However the hostility shown by Brexiters to the very notiion is good reason to think that is unlikely. If they believed there was reason to hope for a repeat victory they'd be all for it.

The barrage of claptrap about it being a blow to democracy is hypocritical rubbish. Unfortunately an awful lot of people seem to have actually been taken in by it, including some Remainers. So if a fresh referendum votes to stay, even by a much larger margin than that of 2016, there'll be many who will see that result as illegitimate.

Strange. When an early General Election in 1917 took away from the Tories the Commons majority that had been voted in,supposedly for five years, in 2015, did anyone suggest that was cheating the electorate of 2015 and a betrayal of democracy?

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 08 Jan 19 - 08:47 PM

Many will see it as illegitimate - even though it would represent "the will of the people," to use the favoured brexiteer parlance, even more than before.

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Iains
Date: 09 Jan 19 - 04:34 AM

PM Blair in 2004: "The electorate should be asked for their opinion when all our questions have been answered, when all the details are known, when the legislation has been finally tempered and scrutinised."
The prime minister said the question would be on the treaty, but added that the implications went far wider: "It is time to resolve once and for all whether this country, Britain, wants to be at the centre and heart of European decision-making."

He concluded: "Let the issue be put - and let the battle be joined."

The BBC in 2008 quoting William Hague:
What has really changed between Tony Blair standing at the despatch box and saying let battle be joined in a referendum in April 2004 and the current Prime Minister saying let battle be avoided at any cost and please don't let me be photographed at the signing ceremony? Two things have changed - the general election of 2005 was got out of the way and the government have decided that a referendum cannot be held because they do not think they would win it.
BBC 2013. PM Cameron
David Cameron has said the British people must "have their say" on Europe as he pledged an in/out referendum if the Conservatives win the election.

The prime minister said he wanted to renegotiate the UK's relationship with the EU and then give people the "simple choice" between staying in under those new terms, or leaving the EU.

When the previous three Prime Ministers clearly state they will put the issue to the people, it does not show politicians in an edifying light, when they conspire hellbent on betrayal. Where does that leave democracy?
It is worth repeating the terms of the referendum, many think it contained much more.

Give people the "simple choice" between staying in under those new terms, or leaving the EU.

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Jan 19 - 04:39 AM

I promised I wasn't going to post again, and that was my intention, but I've been around so long that I feel I couldn't go without a last goodbye to those I've come to like and respect

It's always disturbed me that this forum has been used by a few as a platform for hatred and racist bigotry and I was disturbed when an attempt was made separate these subjects from this topic - Brexit - which, I believe, was sold on the basis of stopping foreigners from coming to Britain
These vicious outlooks gave us not only Brexit, Trump, Orban... et al, but a sharp rise in support for Neo Fascism throughout the world - including ethnic cleansing in the Middle and Far East - as MacColl's song nearly says, "Hitler Ain't Dead" - he's found Populism as a way of crawling to the top.
I was strongly opposed to Raggy's banishing refugees and asyylum seekers from this thread and, with I little difficulty, managed to persuade a Mod that they were as closely stuck together as are a lump of dog-shit to the sole of a shoe, and was happy to slog away

Ironically, the thread that Raggy opened to divert us away is now being used as a hate-platform against the Travelling people - people who have occupied a major part of mine and Pat's lives for about half a century - From Jeannie Robertson and the Stewarts, who were among those who introduced us to Traditional singing, to the thirty odd pleasurable and educational years we spent recording Travellers in the UK - all now energetically being depicted as "slave owners", thieves, disease ridden and untrustworthy anachronisms not fit for human society

I have always been unhappy that the Mods allowed a member of this forum to mount a several-years- long insult campaign against fellow Mudcatters, but I came to consider his abuse a conformation that my arguments were striking home
I was appalled when they did nothing when he upped his game into making the attacks against me racist - Anti Irish (rather stupid, as I am far more British than I am Irish - but racists tend not to be very bright)   

What has upset me the most has been when members of this form who I have come to like and respect, lumped my opposition to all this with his behavior and asked me to stop posting to this thread - and welcomed my message when I said I would

Anyway - didn't want to go without saying 'Goodbye and Thanks for the Fish' - it really has been a pleasure
I would be hypocritical to wish you all the best - maybe 'I wish you all you wish me' would be more appropriate
This will probably be deleted - perhaps it should be, but I hope enough of my friends see it before it is   
Jim
By the way - I will wear Iains "byesy bye!" and Bobad's "Wishful thinking." as badges of honour - both are exponents of everything I believe to be going wrong with today's society

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 09 Jan 19 - 04:49 AM

There is really no need for drastic action, Jim. Things offend and upset me as much as they do you (I am the son of one of those thieving, trouble making, scrounging, job-taking immigrants, remember) but I have found the way to reduce it that will eventually eliminate it. I have told you many times to talk round them and completely ignore the more stupid posts. Try it for a while.

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Iains
Date: 09 Jan 19 - 05:46 AM

This will probably be deleted - perhaps it should be

Cannot happen soon enough!

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 09 Jan 19 - 06:09 AM

What DtG said.

Jim, there really is no point arguing ad infinitum with those whose wiring is so completely fucked-up (suck it up, Nigs and Iains) that they feel compelled and permitted to preach their bigoted message anywhere they choose. You cannot 'win' with these people and, by continuing to argue with them, rather than preventing them from spouting their vileness, you both encourage and enable them in their endeavours.

Ignore them. It's perfectly obvious to anyone reading this and the other threads they infest what they are, and there is no need for anyone else to comment. They are what they are, and they will continue to expose their obnoxious personae whether you argue with them or not.

Talk around them, but don't talk to them. That will disturb them far more than losing your rag and allowing them to get a huge hard-on from winding you up.

Now, any good news about BrexShit?

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Jan 19 - 06:17 AM

"Cannot happen soon enough!"

                                  :-) :-) :-)

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: KarenH
Date: 09 Jan 19 - 06:48 AM

Backwoodsman, I give up trying to talk sense into Jim.

As I have said before he cannot or will not accept the fact that his posts come across as insulting and unpleasant.

He asked me for quotations. I provided them while predicting accurately that he would try to argue that they were not abusive, an argument I don't believe even he would accept in an objective way as some of his comments on song lyrics have demonstrated that he is capable of understanding how language works.

He represents himself as a misunderstood crusader, but for me being a jack in the box toy for provocative right=wing posters to amuse themselves with does not further his cause and puts people off. And the latest post in which he seems to feel himself betrayed by his allies seems to show that sadly, he still doesn't get it.

I never believed for one moment he would stay away, and was not prepared to humour him by asking him to return. Sadly, I am guessing that if Jim stayed away Iains would find another mug on another thread to wind up. Then maybe we might get some more interesting discussion.

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: KarenH
Date: 09 Jan 19 - 06:50 AM

Sorry, the word 'mug' was insulting, though if Jim had written it he would be denying that. I maybe should have said 'victim'.

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Jan 19 - 07:03 AM

What's the point Baccy - you can see the rection from Karen here and from his posting on the other hread Iains sees no harm in his tirades racist tirades against Travellers
I really don't with to be associated with a forum that gives a platform to this filth
Jim

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Iains
Date: 09 Jan 19 - 07:42 AM

"racist tirades against Travellers"?
Let me be the first to congratulate you on your departure. We may attract more people below the line as a result. The way you play the victim is an embarrassment.

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 09 Jan 19 - 07:58 AM

"The electorate should be asked for their opinion when all our questions have been answered, when all the details are known, when the legislation has been finally tempered and scrutinised."

For once Tony Blair was spot on in laying down the basic terms for a referendum on this issue. Though of course he was talking about a referendum that could only have taken place if the proposed EU Constitution had still been there to vote about.

And this quote sums up the things that were completely lacking in Cameron's botched referendum. It is bizarre for it to be deployed by an opponent of a fresh "people's vote" when it actually serves to lay down the basic requirements for such a vote.

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 09 Jan 19 - 08:08 AM

@KarenH - thanks for your response to my post, very interesting. I'm thinking on your post for a while, not at all in disagreement with you, but I need to consider the content of any reply I may, or may not, make, and how to deliver it.

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Jan 19 - 08:16 AM

"The way you play the victim is an embarrassment."And the way you have used this forum is sickening
It is not the first time that this forum has overstepped the line of illegality on the issue of racism, taking refuge in the immunity that the internet allows to direct hate mail at racial and cultural groups , but you are the most persistent and in my experience, the one who has targeted one of the most vulnerable cultural groups in Britain
I saw up close over thirty years, the misery and the harm resulting on racism towards Travellers... demonstrations, firebombings, harassment, physical assault and state persecution of people who showed only friendship and generosity towards our quest for songs and tales
Your latest crusade is the straw that broke the camels back for me
If my going draws in more of your ilk, in a sad way, my point will have been made
Off out for some fresh air
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Iains
Date: 09 Jan 19 - 08:18 AM

It helps to complete Mr Blairs little gem: the implications went far wider: "It is time to resolve once and for all whether this country, Britain, wants to be at the centre and heart of European decision-making."

The issue of being in or out of the EU did not go away on account of the constitution no longer being an issue. The core issue was to remain or stay.
and looking at the clip below out is better than in!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=noR_7BOeU20

Is Macron not a globalist with all that it entails?

You may not agree with the content but it covers some awkward ground.

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: bobad
Date: 09 Jan 19 - 08:23 AM

I promised I wasn't going to post again

Lololol!!!

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 09 Jan 19 - 08:30 AM

Obviously the issue of being in or out of the EU is very much still with us. And it is also obvious that the 2016 referendum did not determine that. That is the very basis for the case that a fresh popular vote is needed, and this time on a clear choice, rather than a fuzzy and ambiguous one like last time.

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 09 Jan 19 - 08:46 AM

Rats leaving the sinking ship

This is now, not in the future. It is a direct result of the UK saying it will leave the EU. Things will get worse if and when we do leave.

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Iains
Date: 09 Jan 19 - 09:43 AM

The London Economic (TLE) is a left-wing digital newspaper.
Guido's leftwing counterpart. Does that mean we have to treat everything it says with the uttermost contempt?

and refusing to respond to his more egregiously silly posts (which in my book would automatically include any with reference to Guido Fawkes)

Sauce for the goose............... !

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 Jan 19 - 10:11 AM

"Is Macron not a globalist with all that it entails?"

While we are a member of be EU, Macron can attempt only to impose French policies on behalf of France that are nothing to do with the EU. Should he attempt to impose globalist policies that do impinge on the EU, the UK won't let him. We have the veto. So, whatever your point is, it falls. I don't know how many times I have to say this: flagging up issues that have no chance of coming about while the UK is a member is nobbut vacuous, pointless scaremongering. You are a leaver ignorantly straying on to remain territory without realising it. You'd be a damn sight more relevant if you were flagging up the undesirable things that could come about once we leave that can't happen now. A European army, for example, which we've vetoed. Maybe even moves towards your dreaded "ever-closer union." We will have no say in those two areas, among many others. And to add insult to injury, we would have to be part of that army and we'd be even more adrift from the EU should they come about. And with no control. Enjoy your new-found "sovereignty." Perhaps Trump or China or Vlad The Lad would let you have a little bit if you grovel nicely.

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 Jan 19 - 10:29 AM

TLE? Never heard of it. Had a quick look. Won't be quoting from it any time soon. Has anyone else here? If not, I don't see your point about geese, whatever that meant. Just heard a faint echo of your mate Mr Woodcock there!

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 09 Jan 19 - 10:56 AM

What on earth is wrong with being a globalist?

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Mossback
Date: 09 Jan 19 - 11:40 AM

Well, in the US of A, at least, "globalist" is a right-wing dog-whistle for "Jew".

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 09 Jan 19 - 11:45 AM

Ok, didn't know that. Even so, I see nothing wrong inbeing one.

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Iains
Date: 09 Jan 19 - 01:06 PM

"Rats leaving the sinking ship" is a link to an article in The London Economic (TLE), a left-wing digital newspaper.

"TLE? Never heard of it. Had a quick look. Won't be quoting from it any time soon. Has anyone else here? "

Obviously Dave the Gnome has or he would not have provided the link
- PM Date: 09 Jan 19 - 08:46 AM

The actual title of the original article was:
$1 trillion leaves British shores ahead of Brexit D-day.

Needless to say no evidence is provided to back up the assertion!

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 09 Jan 19 - 01:31 PM

I have quoted from The London Economic a few times, Steve. It is a good counter to nonsense from right wing sources and about as biased :-)

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 Jan 19 - 01:56 PM

I'll keep an eye on it then. At first sight it seems to be somewhat more measured than the usual, ranting outpourings of Giddy Faux.

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 09 Jan 19 - 02:07 PM

It is pretty good, Steve, but remember that all publications show some bias. It is always worth quoting as a cure for an overdose of faux giddiness though :-)

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Iains
Date: 09 Jan 19 - 02:10 PM

What on earth is wrong with being a globalist?
A few postings on the subject covering a wide spetrum

https://www.reddit.com/r/OutOfTheLoop/comments/5f880y/what_is_globalism_and_why_does_the_altright_view/
views both strongly in favour and against. Interesting views on Unions and mega Corporations.

What it all means is largely dependent on who is in the driving seat.

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Iains
Date: 09 Jan 19 - 02:54 PM

The BBC is popping up above the parapet with an unusually honest appraisal of squeaker Bercow. He apparently acted contrary to the advice of the Commons Clerk, Sir David Natzler.

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-parliaments-46810616

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: DMcG
Date: 09 Jan 19 - 03:51 PM

I posted this on the precious thread:

====
Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG - PM 
Date: 17 Jan 18 - 09:18 AM 

I have to say I have been impressed with Dominic Grieve throughout the debates this week. He has spoken with great clarity and considered insight
=====

Apart from that time he was persuaded not to vote for his own amendment, my view has not changed.

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 09 Jan 19 - 04:07 PM

Whether Bercow acted in accord with the advice he was given by the Commons Clerk is not the relevant thing. It would appear he acted in accordance with the wishes of the House, and that is his job.

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: KarenH
Date: 09 Jan 19 - 06:50 PM

In some things one has to think 'globally'. We all live on one planet with finite resources and an increasingly devastated natural world. 'Think globally, act locally'.

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 Jan 19 - 08:52 PM

Those brexiteers who are attacking John Bercow...wassup with them! The amendment was carried, even though they thought it shouldn't have been brought. So why can't they just accept the will of the 308/650 people? After all, I've been told to accept the will of the 38% (a far weaker percentage) of the people, even though I think the vote should never have been called - and told to accept it, what's more, by the self-same buggers who are attacking the Speaker!

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 10 Jan 19 - 03:00 AM

You're wasting your time, Steve - it's absolutely useless presenting logic to BrexShiteers, and you'll frazzle their brains and cause their Union-Flag boxers to spontaneously combust with a complicated concept like yours.

But, as someone said earlier, sauce, goose, gander....

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: DMcG
Date: 10 Jan 19 - 03:04 AM

A very belated word of caution. If there were to be a second referendum and Remain wants to win it, characterizing Leave voters as all idiots, racists, illogical, devious scumbags and so on is not a very good way of proceeding.

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 10 Jan 19 - 03:17 AM

No worse than them telling me - as they have on a number of occasions, one of them in the past few weeks on another forum - that I'm a 'traitor who should be arrested, marched out and shot' because I voted Remain. If those loons want to be taken seriously, they should stop that kind of nonsense.

As someone said earlier, 'sauce', 'goose', 'gander'...

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 10 Jan 19 - 03:29 AM

And 2500!