Brexit #2

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Dec 18 - 03:16 AM

"There is no extreme left wing on here."
Of course there isn't, there never has been
Easily proved by asking those who believe there is to produce examples, but we know from past experience that would be a waste of time.
There is not really an 'extreme left wing' in Britain - the UK has never really produced one.
The left Parties, many now moribund, have mainly opted for theory rather than action and, as far as I know, have never advocated violence as a policy - cold be wrong, of course, but again, a waste of time asking for examples
Anybody can fling about names - bit more difficult to substantiate the labels they choose to use.

When it comes to right extremism - take your pick
Racism is the jewel in that particular crown
Brexit motivation, Islamophobia, antisemitism-proper (the hatred of Jews), religious and cultural sectarianism.... all advocated, financed and carried out by the right
There extreme poverty rising from the inequality of our society, the debasing of the British people by associating with despots and selling them arms to oppress their subjects, the refusal to provide sanctuary to their victims - that makes British right wing extremism International

There Stan - I've shown you mine, now let's see yours.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 Dec 18 - 03:41 AM

I'm an extreme leftie. I own a big house outright with half an acre of garden with a view of the sea and there are two cars on the driveway, one of them a sports car. Unless you think I don't qualify...

Oh, and there's a bottle of prosecco in the fridge, so I don't qualify as a champagne socialist...

God, I'm confused.

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 10 Dec 18 - 04:09 AM

Meanwhile, in other news, ECJ rules that the UK. can unilaterally cancel Brexit.

Tick, tock, tick, tock....

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 10 Dec 18 - 04:30 AM

Whatever happens we need a deal whereby if the UK government treats the rest of EU like proverbials, UK citizens (not the goverment) must continue to enjoy freedom of movement, the benefits of customs union, and access to structural and cohesion programmes. Uk citizens must have the continued right to take action against the EU if the UK government violates existing and future regulations and treaties.

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Dec 18 - 04:45 AM

" Uk citizens must have the continued right to take action against the EU if the UK government violates existing and future regulations and treaties."
This appears to regard the EU as a single entity, which it is not
If Britain remains in the EU it is just another country with an equal voice in what happens there
The problem from day one of this whole debate has been the "them and us" atmosphere which as dominated
Britain appears never to have shaken off the "I'm the king of the castle" attitude that prevailed throughout the Empire
Brexit was launched largely on the interests of England - "the other lot" hardly fatured in the equation, even to the extent of ignoring the possibility of reawakening violence in Northern Ireland - co-operation, not confrontation is what is needed if anything is going to work
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Dec 18 - 04:45 AM

" Uk citizens must have the continued right to take action against the EU if the UK government violates existing and future regulations and treaties."
This appears to regard the EU as a single entity, which it is not
If Britain remains in the EU it is just another country with an equal voice in what happens there
The problem from day one of this whole debate has been the "them and us" atmosphere which as dominated
Britain appears never to have shaken off the "I'm the king of the castle" attitude that prevailed throughout the Empire
Brexit was launched largely on the interests of England - "the other lot" hardly fatured in the equation, even to the extent of ignoring the possibility of reawakening violence in Northern Ireland - co-operation, not confrontation is what is needed if anything is going to work
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: DMcG
Date: 10 Dec 18 - 05:02 AM

This morning I have heard senior politicians from Labour and the Conservatives saying the ECJ ruling doesn’t change things. Maybe not over the next few days, but if we should get as far as a referendum it is of critical importance, because without it any ‘remain’ option would be speculative: we would have no idea if it was possible at all, or whether we might lose things compared to our current position. That would have been a major debating factor, and is now eliminated

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Iains
Date: 10 Dec 18 - 05:30 AM

At the entrance to the Visitors Centre of the European Parliament, there is a plaque with these words:

    “National sovereignty is the root cause of the most crying evils of our times….The only final remedy for this evil is the federal union of the peoples.”

Federalism is the game plan! Time we was orf!

"That explains why they are so obsessed with free movement, mass immigration and cultural diversity. Those are all instruments for smashing traditional nationhood and creating a new common European citizenship. As the EU’s rulers know only too well, a country without any borders or identity is not a country at all."

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/04/07/the-eu-has-revealed-its-true-nature-a-federalist-monster-that-wi/
And yet there are still denialists!

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 10 Dec 18 - 06:31 AM

Jim's agin it

Iain's for it.

Just thought I'd do condensed version.

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: KarenH
Date: 10 Dec 18 - 06:43 AM

It is silly to say that May's deal is a 'remain' option. Catchy but silly.

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Dec 18 - 06:46 AM

"Just thought I'd do condensed version."
A bit more complicated than that, I'm afraid Al
Ther is nothing wrong with federation as long as it is voluntary and based on mutual co-operation
Our nations have been part of federations at all levels for centuries - The U.N., Nato, Economic, political and military ones, supposedly to create a united effort to make things better... not always the case, of course.
The E.U. is a federation of capitalist states; at present, its aims are to make Capitalism work to the advantage of its members
I believe Capitalism is on the skids and is long past its sell-by date, but until genuine attempts to fix things for all, it'll have to do
Just look at what has emerged as an alternative - Trump, Orban, 'Free' Russia..... all the tinpot fascists that have crawled from the woodwork with their own alternative future
Nice to see Tommy Robinson and his Neo-Nazis out with their banners over the weekend (very little mention of the counter-demonstration though)
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Iains
Date: 10 Dec 18 - 06:48 AM

Big Al are you a minimalist?

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Iains
Date: 10 Dec 18 - 07:07 AM

"Nice to see Tommy Robinson and his Neo-Nazis out with their banners over the weekend (very little mention of the counter-demonstration though)
Actually if you bothered to read the reports there were more counter demonstrators than demonstrators.
From the guardian (you know it is right)
Anti-racist marchers in London claim victory over far-right protest

‘Brexit betrayal’ march led by Tommy Robinson heavily outnumbered by opponents

More made up jimmy bullshit!

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Iains
Date: 10 Dec 18 - 07:20 AM

As reported by Guido
"After days of intense speculation, Sky News are reporting that Theresa May has finally decided to pull tomorrow night’s meaningful vote – despite Number 10 repeatedly insisting for the last few days that it was going ahead and sending numerous ministers on air including Brexit Secretary Stephen Barclay and Michael Gove to insist that it was “100%” happening. “100%” shambolic…"

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 Dec 18 - 07:23 AM

As a larger EU nation, Jim, we have more than an equal share of influence. While we are members there can be no European army and no moves toward the much-derided, dishonestly-invoked "ever-closer union." We have the power of veto over such things. Of course, if we leave we lose that influence, and those things we affect to detest so much are far more likely to come about. As a member of the EU the UK can help to preserve what looks like becoming the last bastion of democracy on the planet (other than disparate, small nations, with apologies to Canada). If Trump gets another term we can forget all about the US holding its place as the Land Of The Free, we have a dictator for life in China who tramples all over human rights, we have Putin ruthlessly trying to turn Russia into an aggressive superpower, we have disgusting regimes all over the Middle East, shambles all over Africa ( thanks to past colonialism) and the far right gaining ascendancy in Brazil.

And now she's put off the vote in Parliament. She's becoming a serious threat to democracy in this country.

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Dec 18 - 07:42 AM

"As a larger EU nation, Jim, we have more than an equal share of influence. "
Absolutely
Huffing off in a huff with the ball only makes us dependent on somebody else - s.f.a. about "standing on our own two feet"
Jim

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Iains
Date: 10 Dec 18 - 07:47 AM

" no moves toward the much-derided, dishonestly-invoked "ever-closer union."

“National sovereignty is the root cause of the most crying evils of our times….The only final remedy for this evil is the federal union of the peoples.”


Do you think they nail the above on the front door purely as a windup?

I suppose you also cannot believe the IPCC has no political agenda?

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: KarenH
Date: 10 Dec 18 - 07:51 AM

A The 'short sellers' are already betting on disasters after Brexit. And guess what, some of them actively support Brexit.


https://www.theguardian.com/business/2018/dec/10/hedge-funds-make-big-bets-against-post-brexit-uk-economy

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 10 Dec 18 - 08:09 AM

It surprises me not one bit that an article from the Torygraph dated the April before the referendum is so full of anti-EU spite. It does surprise me that anyone fell for the lie that the EU was about to take over the UK because a slogan written by a British politician is displayed in a visitors centre. Now that It is obvious that the whole campaign was based on scare stories and lies it is even more surprising that some are still repeating the same tactics. Sad.

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Iains
Date: 10 Dec 18 - 08:13 AM

You obviously cannot differentiate between a slogan and clear statement of intent. SAD!

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Dec 18 - 08:15 AM

Interesting debate ahead
Despite the "Lady Haw-Haw' posters on the pro-Brexit march, so far May has come out as the most principled of the whole circus
She has to call a Parliamentary vote, she has already been told by the E.U. that there is no more room for compromise and the push for a second referendum is now coming from both sides
Throw into the mix that the E.U. has said that Britain can change its mind about leaving....
More exciting than 'Line of Duty'
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Iains
Date: 10 Dec 18 - 08:34 AM

Do you seriously think the eunatics wish to stop at Federalism? They are after world governance!
Quote by Paul Watson, a founder of Greenpeace: "It doesn't matter what is true, it only matters what people believe is true."
Quote by Ottmar Edenhoffer, high level UN-IPCC official: "We redistribute de facto the world's wealth by climate policy...Basically it's a big mistake to discuss climate policy separately from the major themes of globalization...One has to free oneself from the illusion that international climate policy is environmental policy. This has almost nothing to do with environmental policy anymore."
Quote by Dixy Lee Ray, former liberal Democrat governor of State of Washington, U.S.: "The objective, clearly enunciated by the leaders of UNCED, is to bring about a change in the present system of independent nations. The future is to be World Government with central planning by the United Nations. Fear of environmental crises - whether real or not - is expected to lead to – compliance”
Quote by UN's Commission on Global Governance: "The concept of national sovereignty has been immutable, indeed a sacred principle of international relations. It is a principle which will yield only slowly and reluctantly to the new imperatives of global environmental cooperation."
Quote by David Shearman, an IPCC Assessor for 3rd and 4th climate change reports: "Government in the future will be based upon . . . a supreme office of the biosphere. The office will comprise specially trained philosopher/ecologists. These guardians will either rule themselves or advise an authoritarian government of policies based on their ecological training and philosophical sensitivities. These guardians will be specially trained for the task."

Quotes by H.L. Mencken, famous columnist: "The whole aim of practical politics is to keep the populace alarmed — and hence clamorous to be led to safety — by menacing it with an endless series of hobgoblins, all of them imaginary." And, "The urge to save humanity is almost always only a false face for the urge to rule it."

Seems some have a clear agenda. Up to you whether you give it any credence.

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: KarenH
Date: 10 Dec 18 - 08:40 AM

Seems like a good idea to me. We all live on one planet, whose resources we are fast destroying.

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Dec 18 - 08:59 AM

"Seems like a good idea to me"
Me too
You must remember that you are responding to someone who advocates that Global warming is a product of 'fake news'
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Dec 18 - 08:59 AM

"Seems like a good idea to me"
Me too
You must remember that you are responding to someone who advocates that Global warming is a product of 'fake news'
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 10 Dec 18 - 09:06 AM

Did anyone else realise that the opinion of a British politician in the 1930s had now been adopted by the EU as part of its mission statement! Or is someone telling us porkies? :-)

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Iains
Date: 10 Dec 18 - 09:07 AM

you are responding to someone who advocates that Global warming is a product of 'fake news'
Another stunning example of your inability to understand plain english.
The contribution of CO2 to global warming is unquantified and the models inexact. Try paying attention!

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 Dec 18 - 09:16 AM

"The only final remedy for this evil is the federal union of the peoples.”

Read my lips for the umpteenth time. While we are members of the EU, this can never happen. We have the power of veto to prevent it every step of the way. Have you got it yet?

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Iains
Date: 10 Dec 18 - 09:34 AM

Jean-Claude Juncker
“Of course there will be transfers of sovereignty. But would I be intelligent to draw the attention of public opinion to this fact?,

Hooray for sheople!

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 Dec 18 - 09:42 AM

We can cede no sovereignty unless we agree to it. We'll be ceding a damn sight more once we leave, and over that we will have no choice.

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Dec 18 - 09:52 AM

"Try paying attention!"
Try to get your head around the fact that nobody wants top talk to tyyou because of your persistent appalling behavior
You have recently raised the question of bullying elsewhere rather disgustingly but you have made it a statement of identity
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 10 Dec 18 - 09:58 AM

He has nothing but insults, bluster and ill concealed propaganda, Steve. That has been obvious for a long time. Don't engage with him and we can continue to laugh at it without him being suspended again.

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Iains
Date: 10 Dec 18 - 10:09 AM

"You have recently raised the question of bullying elsewhere rather disgustingly but you have made it a statement of identity"
A bit of totally unnecessary thread drift there and you were certainly not smelling of roses on it. DO you have to repeatedly drag in irrelevancies from other threads to construct you argument? Have you ever considered simply keeping quiet. You frequently promise to, but pop back up again like a turd in a punch bowl.

You keep posting outright lies, I will continue to correct you. Simples!

What country can preserve its liberties if its rulers are not warned from time to time that their people preserve the spirit of resistance? Let them take arms. Thomas Jefferson

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Iains
Date: 10 Dec 18 - 11:34 AM

Even the squeaker is upsetting Treason May.

From the all seeing eye of guido of course

https://order-order.com/2018/12/10/bercows-bombshell-bollocking/

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: DMcG
Date: 10 Dec 18 - 12:52 PM

Can we expect Nigel to explain that the fall in the pound is nothing to do with Brexit?

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 10 Dec 18 - 01:05 PM

"Try to get your head around the fact that nobody wants top talk to tyyou because of your persistent appalling behavior
You have recently raised the question of bullying elsewhere rather disgustingly but you have made it a statement of identity"

So, why do you keep responding to the twunt, Jim?

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Dec 18 - 01:37 PM

"So, why do you keep responding to the twunt, Jim?"
In the hope he might either clean up his act or go away
I have no wish to disbar anybody from this forum - but I have no intention of entering into discussion with this brain dead
I see no harm in reminding people what he is while he persists - Don't want him whingeing about being bullied when somebody else's passing is being commemorated, do we ?
Finished for now
Jim

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 10 Dec 18 - 01:43 PM

It would appear that in putting off Tuesday's vote in the Commons Theresa May be following the example of the Sufi teacher Nasruding in a similar predicament.

Nasrudin was caught in the act and sentenced to die. Hauled up before the king, he was asked by the Royal Presence: "Is there any reason at all why I shouldn't have your head off right now?" To which he replied: "Oh, King, live forever! Know that I, the mullah Nasrudin, am the greatest teacher in your kingdom, and it would surely be a waste to kill such a great teacher. So skilled am I that I could even teach your favorite horse to sing, given a year to work on it." The king was amused, and said: "Very well then, you move into the stable immediately, and if the horse isn't singing a year from now, we'll think of something interesting to do with you."
As he was returning to his cell to pick up his spare rags, his cellmate remonstrated with him: "Now that was really stupid. You know you can't teach that horse to sing, no matter how long you try." Nasrudin's response: "Not at all. I have a year now that I didn't have before. And a lot of things can happen in a year. The king might die. The horse might die. I might die.

"And, who knows? Maybe the horse will sing."

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: The Sandman
Date: 12 Dec 18 - 02:12 AM

As long as May does not dance . she really does look like a puppet when trying

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 12 Dec 18 - 02:32 AM

Pretty much sums the whole farrago up....

https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/andy-serkis-theresa-may-brexit_uk_5c0d9209e4b0a606a9a9f08f?skj&guccounter=1

---

That doesn't seem to load in the U.S. after redirect. Try https://www.facebook.com/WeWantsIt/. --mudelf

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: DMcG
Date: 12 Dec 18 - 03:19 AM

So the letters are in and there is a confidence in May. I wonder if this will persuade Labour to trigger a confidence vote in the government? Meanwhile the SNP are trying to trigger one (Or as close to it as they can.)

Yes, another quiet week on the House.

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: DMcG
Date: 12 Dec 18 - 03:23 AM

A genuine question here. Yesterday during the S024 debate there were various promises a made to the House about the meaningful vote process. Presumably these were made on the part of the government and so still apply whoever is leader. Or were they statements of her commitments and so not applicable if there is a change of leader?

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Iains
Date: 12 Dec 18 - 04:34 AM

Progress at last. If Treason May survives I will be very disappointed.
We should really depose the partisan pipsqueak bercow as well.
Perhaps we will get brexit back on course, though not without difficulty.
Even the US ambassador to the EU thinks they are obstructionist,
Guido, of course

It comes as no surprise that there is an Interfada in France and to a lesser extent Belgium. Very interesting to see the EU symbol displayed prominently on the armoured cars deployed in Paris.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/dantedisparte/2018/12/10/the-gilet-jaunes-movement-risks-becoming-europes-intifida/#1c0b187758c5
'Twould appear (B?)anker Macron>

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Iains
Date: 12 Dec 18 - 04:54 AM

(Try again)
It would appear Macron's globalist march to federalism is not shared by his hapless subjects!!

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 Dec 18 - 05:34 AM

There can be no march to federalism while the UK is a member of the EU. Do you ever listen?
As for getting brexit "back" on track, do remind us as to when it was ever on track in the first place.

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 12 Dec 18 - 05:35 AM

At school we used to sing this song about the EU.

'EU would valiant be gainst all disaster..'

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Dec 18 - 05:46 AM

This says it all really
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/tommy-robinson-free-protest-nazi-salutes-london-violence-police-arrests-attacks-prison-a8393566.html
The Times has a large photo across two pages of two more of Robinson's supporters, carrying "Crash out and pay nothing" banners doing exactly the same
This is where it has been from day one
Of course, they are only exercising their "right to free speech" that some hold so dear !
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Dec 18 - 06:57 AM

"'EU would valiant be gainst all disaster..'"
Hw about the Liverpool Lullaby which starts, - "EUR a mucky kid"

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: KarenH
Date: 12 Dec 18 - 07:02 AM

'Crash out and pay nothing'. Against this made idea is the argument that we have legal obligations to pay something. Who would want to deal with or trust a nation that failed to meet such obligations? How would paying nothing encourage the EU to trust or trade with us in future?

On the current US administration's dislike of the EU, and its oppositions to standards and regulations, which it likes to see as nothing but barriers to trade (in items such as chlorinated chicken etc), this is well-known. As is US-based support for the right.

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: KarenH
Date: 12 Dec 18 - 07:36 AM

If May loses the vote of confidence convention has it that she stays until she can find somebody who can get a majority in the House of Commons. Given that the Tories don't have a clear majority, this presumably means somebody whom the DUP will support. This leads to the backstop question again.

The backstop question seems intractable to me. If we leave the customs union and the single market, then Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland will be in different economic areas, operating under different rules. Customs checks at the border seem inevitable unless the whole of the UK is in the same system.

This conflicts with the 'Good Friday' peace agreement.