Brexit #2

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: DMcG
Date: 29 Dec 18 - 02:16 PM

I wouldn't say Brexit is on holiday: the MPs are, but the clock ticks on regardless. Hence the extra ferries Raggy referred to, and the slightly odd articles about John Redwood's knighthood. In one Guardian article it is claimed the knighthood is being offered to try to sway him vote to support May's deal. Someone has a fevered imagination I think - I see not the slightest chance it would do any such thing.

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Iains
Date: 29 Dec 18 - 02:18 PM

Oh Dear! Irish Government accused of ‘standing idly by’ as UK bolsters ferry links for Brexit

4 hours ago!"Brexit on holiday?" In your dreams laddie!

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/government-accused-of-standing-idly-by-as-uk-bolsters-ferry-links-for-brexit-1.3744328

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 29 Dec 18 - 02:32 PM

All the times David Davis said Brexit would be simple - New Statesman

Liam Fox says Brexit will be 'the easiest thing in history' - The Independent

11 times Brexiteers said Brexit would be easy

Utter, utter, fuckwitted cockwombles.

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Dec 18 - 02:49 PM

Has anybody mentiuoned the disgusting display of humanity by British politicians strutting on camera and telling the world how they are going to keep Britain clean and pure from the infection of refugees Britain is either directly involved in or has acted as armourer for

Can't remember if anybody mentioned of the sixty odd D-type contracts May has demanded be issued to ascertain that the British people are kept in the dark over the emergency plans now being put into place to divert the likely medicine supply crisis that is likely to appear should Britain crash out of Europe
"We've had your vote folks so you can now fuck off"
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Raggytash
Date: 29 Dec 18 - 02:54 PM

No Jim, no one has mentioned D contracts. Do you have any details to share with people here.

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 29 Dec 18 - 03:10 PM

Going from Backwoodsman's link "Liam Fox says Brexit will be 'the easiest thing in history' - The Independent"

What The Independent actually quotes is: This may explain why Liam Fox is so confident, saying on Thursday the Brexit agreement should be “the easiest deal in human history”.

Again, to quote Backwoodsman's link: All the times David Davis said Brexit would be simple - New Statesman
Nowhere in that article does David Davies say that "Brexit would be simple".

I realise that some of the remainers here have a problem with the English language, but they are following the example of those who are trying to sabotage Brexit by misquoting the people actually faced with delivering Brexit.

Brexit should be straightforward, if we weren't faced with the EU team who are trying to prevent an orderly Brexit, or, if they can't prevent it, to make it as expensive for the UK as they can.

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Raggytash
Date: 29 Dec 18 - 03:19 PM

Nigel please !!!

Once again you are arguing semantics, I realise it is important to you but the rest of us understood what Backwoodsman was driving at.

Do you have ANY good news about Brexit for instance.

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: DMcG
Date: 29 Dec 18 - 03:24 PM

We are faced with exactly the EU team we knew we would have when those statements were made. The EU was always going to work in what it perceived in its best interests, which would be financial and political and social and every other interest. Make as much of 'should and 'would' as you like, but the reality was always that, and none of the Leave spokespeople said that as explicitly as they spoke of things being easy.

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 29 Dec 18 - 03:33 PM

The EU team are trying to get the best deal possible for the EU. And by chance, often also for the British people. Not so much for the British government, which is the stumbling block in all of this. If Theresa May would relay her insane red line insisting that she take away the right of Freedom of Movement for the British People, then progress might be made.

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 29 Dec 18 - 05:12 PM

EU team who are trying to prevent an orderly Brexit, or, if they can't prevent it, to make it as expensive for the UK as they can.

I think any objective observer would see more or less the direct opposite. Faced with a devious and fundamentally untrustworthy set of negotiators from the UK, the EU has done it's best to act reasonably and consistently. It has been remarkably ready to do its best to cope with impossibilist demands by the UK. It has whittled down the debt owed by the UK in respect of commitments previously entered it to a fraction of the actual total.

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Dec 18 - 04:12 AM

"more little jimmie rubbish!"
New Year resolution broken before New Year - tsk - tsk
Can some mod get this feller intoi line and save me having to collect his history of abuse and post it to them please ?
This behaviour should not be tolerated on a debating forum

Of curse they are refugees - you don't need papers to flee a war
Do you think the Jews who fled the Nazis all arrived with "papers"
Stop being so inhumanly stupid
You'll be saying that those who managed to get through should go and sleep rough instead of being given the use of vacant private property, as you did with the Grenfell survivors
Let someone else deal with them doesn't hack it - we are part of the responsibility of what is happening in the world today by either supporting and/or selling arms to scumbags like your friend Assad

Brexit was aimed directly at keeping 'the sick, needy and those in peril' out of Britain, as is being shown by the minister on tele last night
Shortly we are likely to see a wave of refugees from the Yemen, fleeing the effects of British fighter planes sold to the Saudis
Maybe it's time Britain built a Trump/Berlin-type wall, eh Iains ?

"No Jim, no one has mentioned D contracts."
May has demanded confidentiality orders be issued to Medical firm employees who are at present working on plans to deal with what is likely to happen to medical supplies should Britain crash out of Europe - I think 60 have been issued so far
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: KarenH
Date: 30 Dec 18 - 04:12 AM

From today's Observer

Senior Tory and Labour MPs are planning to force the government to delay Brexit by several months to avoid a no-deal outcome if Theresa May fails to get her deal through parliament in January, the Observer has been told.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/dec/29/cross-party-stop-the-clock-hard-brexit-no-deal-29-march

Some good news, then.

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 30 Dec 18 - 04:52 AM

I think only you respond to his nonsense now, Jim. As long as you keep responding he will keep abusing. It is in your hands to stop it.

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 30 Dec 18 - 04:53 AM

What a strange, perverse idea for a Right-Wing Extremist to come up with - that it's a country's responsibility to prevent people from leaving. The former USSR would be proud of him. What next - a concrete wall on the French coast, with border guards shooting 'escapees'?

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Dec 18 - 05:57 AM

"I think only you respond to his nonsense now, Jim."
Had enough of allowing an abusive poster fucking up threads
It takes a special talent to close an obituary thread -time he either stopped or was gone
Jim

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 30 Dec 18 - 06:21 AM

Ha-ha! This will get our Right-Wing Extremist Fuckwit foaming at the gills...

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Iains
Date: 30 Dec 18 - 06:45 AM

"It takes a special talent to close an obituary thread"

Indeed it does Jim. Are you proud of yourself?

Shall I repost your highly offensive comments, so all can see precisely what you are?

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Dec 18 - 06:57 AM

If you wish Iains - as long as you put up exactly what I said in full
Better still, why not tell us where we can find it so we can see the whole nasty incident in all its glory
I had stopped posting and left home when you and your two expelled mates closed Keith's thread
Enough really is enough
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: KarenH
Date: 30 Dec 18 - 08:06 AM

I note that two of the ferry firms involved in the emergency 'No Deal' arrangements are, respectively, Danish and French. This implies that somebody knows at least what taxes will be involved in boat hiring between the UK and the EU.

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Dec 18 - 09:01 AM

Just been announced that Britain is in "CRISIS" - following the small boat that managed to land on our coast a couple of days ago, another six refugees have made it across the Channel through the ring of steel
The Home Secretary has promised he will ascertain that there are enough naval vessels on hand to cope with this massive threat to the freedom and well being of the British People
For crying out loud !!!!

Meanwhile, back at the ranch
The Government have awarded £14 million of the taxpayers money to a shipping company that has no vessels and exists only on paper, in order to deal with the likely problems of delivering goods to Europe after a 'No Deal' Brexit
The port this as yet non-existent fleet is proposing to sail from has insisted that they have neither the facilities nor the capacity to deal with vessels of any significant size

Pity Ealing Studios stopped making comedies - this shower is providing plots that would set the British Film Industry back among the world giants in next to no time
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 30 Dec 18 - 01:49 PM

Rubberboatgate is primarily about Javid positioning himself to make a play for Theresa May's job when she's dumped. Though why anyone would want that is hard to imagine.

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 30 Dec 18 - 04:08 PM

Nothing would surprise me about this bunch of self-serving, deceitful Tory Mo-Fo's...

https://voxpoliticalonline.com/2018/12/30/a-manufactured-migrant-crisis-to-create-anti-eu-sentiment-ahead-of-the-big-brexit-vote

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 30 Dec 18 - 07:05 PM

Not sure that would work. A key part of what is liable to scupper May's "deal" is anti-EU sentiment.

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 31 Dec 18 - 05:19 AM

I think thats right Jim, Javid has seen Trump sending troops to the Mexican border, and think that this plays right with the sewer press and their readers. Maybe he is right, but it is the lowest form of politics. Meanwhile Williamson thinks that British Standing in the world can be restored by constructing more military bases. Standing with whom, exactly?

As others have said, it is a far right coup, appealing to the basest of emotions in the same way that Mosley and Powell did.

Sadly, my Irish ancestry is two generations too far back to give me the right of an Irish passport. Otherwise my application would have been in some time ago.

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: DMcG
Date: 31 Dec 18 - 06:15 AM

I am undecided - still! - whether to apply for a Irish passport. I have Irish citizenship, which is more important, providing the rules don't change. I may apply in the next few weeks, but in practice it would be more symbolic than anything else, since my wife is not entitled to one and we usually travel together. ,

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: KarenH
Date: 31 Dec 18 - 07:00 AM

Will this Dublin agreement apply after Brexit.

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: DMcG
Date: 31 Dec 18 - 07:05 AM

Of course, the countries of the Schengen Area, by removing borders, are giving the appearance of a single country, so arguably the Schengen Area is the 'country' of first landfall.

As our famed demander of precision, I am sure you realise you cannot just change the legal definition of what is and is not a country for your convenience. The Schengen Area is not a country.

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 31 Dec 18 - 07:15 AM

I was not attempting to change a legal definition. Maybe instead of 'arguably' I should have written "it could be argued that". This does not mean that I was making that argument.
The lack of internal borders make it very difficult for France or Germany to identify the first place of landfall for these migrants. This is a problem of the EU's own making. UK kept out of Schengen, and so retains an ability to attempt to control borders. We can see (in most cases) where those crossing the channel started from, and so should be able to return them.

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: DMcG
Date: 31 Dec 18 - 07:30 AM

Whether it is could be argued or not is beside the point: I could argue black is white, but I would still be wrong. The Schengen area simply is not a country and any argument that is it might be so regarded is simply false. And I suggest that by raising the Schengen area you were making that argument.

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 31 Dec 18 - 11:31 AM

And, in beast 'Nitpicking Nigs' mode, I'll just point out that it's 'superseded' - no 'c'.
So glad I got a good education - I might resort to the occasional expletive, but at least I can spell properly.

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Raggytash
Date: 31 Dec 18 - 11:33 AM

Once again can I remind posters that this thread is about Brexit.

I will open another thread about refugees and asylum seekers so you continue your discussions there.

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Iains
Date: 31 Dec 18 - 01:25 PM

The linked article above: GlobalPost

GlobalPost provides original international reporting rooted in integrity, accuracy, independence and powerful storytelling.
aka Once upon a time!

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 31 Dec 18 - 02:06 PM

Plus, of course, Old Haddock-Face's '70 million Turks waiting to invade the UK'. More Brexit bollocks.

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Iains
Date: 31 Dec 18 - 02:19 PM

Fact:    a thing that is known or proved to be true.
Opinion: a view or judgement formed about something, not based on fact or knowledge.

Posting the identical article twice does not alter the fact that it is voicing opinions unlike the font of truth Guido, whose content is factual. As can easily be verified.


Now for some facts that are not derived from scare stories


http://csi.nuff.ox.ac.uk/?p=1153
I think I would have preferred a rephrasing of some of the questions but classing sociology as a science is stretching the definition a little in my book, so perhaps I should not be surprised.

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 31 Dec 18 - 08:05 PM

Now into the fourth year of the Phony Brexit War. Happy landings...

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Jan 19 - 03:46 AM

Is it my imagination, or has some unseen hand moved some postings to a thread I have no intention of posting to ?
To separate Brexit, immigration and the refugees is artificial is nonsensical and to do so is stupid
Keeping foreigners out of Britain was the sole objective of Brexit - it was its raison d'être - it had no other purpose
The effects of this objective were felt immediately after the vote was taken; a sharp rise in racist incidents, a steady rise of open displays of racism - culminating in Britain now being put of a war footing to keep refugees fleeing from our wars out
To keep these incidents apart from Brexit is to rip the heart out of this discussion
I shall continue to post my thoughts to this thread and hope no censorious hand prevents me from doing so
Happy New Year all; or most of you! (New Year Resolution not to be nice to Nazties
Jim
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/brexit-hate-crime-eu-citizens-xenophobia-racism-police-bracing-march-2019-article-50-a8590921.html

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: DMcG
Date: 01 Jan 19 - 04:12 AM

Life is more complicated than that, Iains. You also have the selection of which facts you choose to report and the way in which you report them. An entirely factual report can - and frequently is - spun to tell a story to match an opinion. Guido does this all the time, as do many others. If A and B both occur, reporting just A, just B, A as if it causes B and A as if it is caused by B are four distinctly different 'factual'stories.

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 01 Jan 19 - 04:22 AM

"Keeping foreigners out of Britain was the sole objective of Brexit - it was its raison d'être - it had no other purpose"

Sorry Jim, but that's completely wrong.

The sole purpose of Brexit was, and is, to allow a small number of immensely wealthy individuals, families, and businesses to avoid becoming subject to the EU Anti-Tax-Avoidance and Evasion regulations which come into force in, IIRC, May 2019, and which would, amongst other things, make them pay tax in the country in which their income and profits are earned.

The rabidly xenophobic Leave campaign was the carefully thought-out tool which those with everything to gain from Leaving used to persuade the easily-influenced, the feeble minded, the disenfranchised, and the Union-Flag-wavers - those with little or nothing to gain - to vote for a result which would guarantee the ability of that small cadre of immensely wealthy people to continue their Tax-Avoidance activities.

The fact that the end of March 2019 is the date set for our departure from the EU is no coincidence, it is essential in order that those who drove, and are still driving, the Leave campaign - the tax-exiles (some not even British!) and tax-avoiding businessmen who give the Tory Party its instructions, and who gave Haddock-Face, Bozo, and Gove The Little Scottish Viper their direction in the Leave campaign - are able to continue to avoid paying taxes in this country on their vast earnings in this country.

Never, in the field of U.K. Politics, have so many been so successfully deceived by so few.

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: DMcG
Date: 01 Jan 19 - 04:33 AM

I somewhat agree, Backwoodsman. The xenophobia was a useful tool of the Leave campaign, rather than the prime reason.

Where I differ is that I don't think there was a sole reason. Taxation was a factor, but not the only one. The ability to increase profit by dropping some of the EU regulations was another, and that is largely independent of taxation.

Leavers are in a far better position to say why they voted as they did, but I am fairly confident that there is no single reason that would have given a majority: that came from a number of different reasons.

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 01 Jan 19 - 04:46 AM

You could be right, Mac, but I think the role of the Tax-Avoiders/Evaders - the Murdochs, Rothermeres, and others (e.g. Rees-Mogg, Redwood and their kind) - should not be underestimated. There are dark forces, very dark forces indeed, afoot in, and behind, the corridors of The Palace of Westminster.

Telling their target-voters to vote Leave because they want to carry on stashing their wealth in tax-havens wouldn't work, would it? But "Look out, that foreigner's coming to steal your job/benefits/overload the NHS/overturn UK law and replace it with Sharia/groom and rape your daughters" certainly did.

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Jan 19 - 04:47 AM

"Sorry Jim, but that's completely wrong."
We..eeel !!!
Think I ma have put it badly

No argument with what you say about the reason for them in charge to leave Europe - of course it is as you say - all moves such as this are motivated by such reasons.
I'm referring to why the idea was taken up by a significant enough minority of the population to be passed
It was sold and bought on a racist ticket - a classic case of divide and rule

Whether rabid ranters such as the one strutting his stuff on the other thread like it or not, Britain is now a solidly multi-racial and multi-cultural society - in essence, it always has been - Britain could never have become as wealthy and powerful as it did without having to ponce off other nations and cultures - "The Empire on which the sun never sets, they called it ("and the blood never dries", they usually forgot to add)
The incoming of the ex colonials after the fall of the Empires was inevitable - it provided the great and good with a perfect scapegoat to maintain power - while we were fighting each other we were ignoring what they were doing

Things like Brexit never have a singe purpose
Jim

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Jan 19 - 04:48 AM

Nicely cross/posted Mac
Jim

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Jan 19 - 05:39 AM

This is a perfect example of how this garbage is used
From the bginning, this feller has been insisting - abusively - that immigration has nothing whatever to do with Brexit
Now, in one mighty bound, he's out of his closet in full Tommy Robinson mode - from taking our jobs and houses and a drain on the health service to Sharia Law - The Full Monty
It's long been acknowledged that The National Health Service would have collapsed without immigrant Labour, Immigrants have been a benifit to, not a drain on British society
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Iains
Date: 01 Jan 19 - 07:57 AM

"From the bginning, this feller has been insisting - abusively - that immigration has nothing whatever to do with Brexi"

would you care to point out where? or is it yet another "once upon a time" jimmie story? Go on! try to prove me wrong!

I believe the argument is about uncontrolled immigration. This is probably a proposition a little too subtle for you. You really do spout some rubbish at times. What on earth has sharia law got to do with the subject? How many more bits of other threads are you going to drag in to pad out your ludicrous postings?
Migration figures are notoriously difficult to calculate, for illegal immigrants it is pure guesswork.
Jack Dromey, Deputy General of the Transport and General Workers Union and Labour Party treasurer, suggested in May 2006 that there could be around 500,000 illegal workers. He called for a public debate on whether an amnesty should be considered. Analysis suggests that if the migrants granted amnesty were given access to healthcare and other benefits, the net cost to the exchequer would be £5.530 billion annually. As the food industry claims to feed around 10 million more than the official figures show, the estimated cost of an amnesty could be considerably higher. We are very lucky we live in a society where roadside ID checks are not the norm, as in the Irish Republic. The downside is that an unknown number of ghost illegal immigrants exist under the radar.

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Jan 19 - 08:38 AM

"Sorry Jim, but that's completely wrong."
Nope - been there, done that
a search of "leftie garbage" should do the trick
Here isn't and has never been "uncontrolled immigration" - a racist myth
If there had, Britain and all wealthier countries would be crammed full of immigrants seeking a better life
If my points are ludicrous, they should be easy to shoot down - "I see no drones", as Nelson would have said if he'd been around
We owe the third World big time - we manipulated their economies, their politics and their cultures to serve the Empire and we made sure the former Colonies were in 'A safe pair of hands' when we left - what is happening now in Pakistan is as good as example as any of the mess we left behind

Morally, we should be committed to accepting refugees from dictatorships we helped to set up and continued to support with arms and money - our contradictory attitude to The Arab Spring is another pretty good example of our indifference and self interest

As far as economic migrants are concerned, we fill our shops with goods produced under near-slave conditions, and so become part of those horrific conditions.

You mentioned Sharia Law - an abhorrent practice, but no less horrific than letting Christian clergymen loose to rape children - very few religious groups can take the high-ground when it comes to the treatment of women
These practices will only end when action is taken within the societies, and that will be don by persuasion and international encouragement, not using them as a weapon to besmear and eject foreigners from Britain, as your lot constantly do

Roadside ID checks - Hitler must be tap-dancing in his bunker - what a frighteningly nasty brave new world you aspire to
This mornings 'Times' (Irish edition) welcomes the fact (in large headlines) that 10,000 people gained Irish citizenship here last year - beats 'Rule Britannia' any day of the week   

Feel free to deal with any of these suggestions in as much detail as you wish, but do so as an adult with a modicum of intelligence that has been, so far missing from your postings
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Jan 19 - 08:40 AM

That should have begun "would you care to point out where? " - thought I'd copied and pasted it
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: KarenH
Date: 01 Jan 19 - 09:21 AM

Jim is right about 'uncontrolled immigration'. It's one of those weasel phrases.

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 01 Jan 19 - 10:03 AM

There is no "uncontrollled immigration". The last time we had uncontrolled immigration was in the dark ages, when the anglo-saxons came over. And the point about the "immigrant workers" is that they are workers. They are working and contributing to society, both through their productivity and through their taxes, which mostly they pay.

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 01 Jan 19 - 11:08 AM

Keeping foreigners out of Britain was the sole objective of Brexit - it was its raison d'être - it had no other purpose
The effects of this objective were felt immediately after the vote was taken; a sharp rise in racist incidents, a steady rise of open displays of racism - culminating in Britain now being put of a war footing to keep refugees fleeing from our wars out

Okay. Jim finally made a statement that makes sense as to why immigration is a component of Brexit - certainly Farage had his eye on excluding a whole group of people we know he has abhored and discriminated against for years when he got behind the vote.

But this doesn't mean that the whole conversation can or should shift over to the topic of immigration. And stop the name calling and insults. I'm tired of the ad hominem attacks that don't further the conversation but do ratchet up the anger.

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Jan 19 - 01:04 PM

Thanks for that S.L.R.
New Year's Res - must try harder
Happy New Year
Jim