Brexit #2

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 19 Nov 18 - 10:53 AM

And before Nitpicking Nigs, The Scourge of the Fourth Form, jumps in with his playground antics - I know I missed an 'f' out of 'dumbfuck'. I'll take 100 lines, if it makes him feel better about himself.

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Stanron
Date: 19 Nov 18 - 10:55 AM

I do hope I live to see in a years time who, if anyone, actually eats humble pie.

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: DMcG
Date: 19 Nov 18 - 10:59 AM

I have said before, Stanron, that I hope I am wrong about how this is going and will certainly eat humble pie if it goes well. I set out below what I mean by "going well" in a conversation with Keith.

Will you?

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Iains
Date: 19 Nov 18 - 11:17 AM

Good to see the leftards keepimg up a string of abuse instead of rational argument. Must be due to the pack mentality!

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Stanron
Date: 19 Nov 18 - 11:31 AM

DMcG wrote: I set out below what I mean by "going well" in a conversation with Keith.

Will you?

Date and time of this? The problem with answering the 'will you?' question is that if Brexit actually occurs, and we actually agree that it has occurred we would then have to agree as to whether it has gone well or not.

I happily predict that if Brexit occurs Labour will claim it to be a disaster in order to make political capital even if, by my view, it is a success.

If this happens we could both decide that we do not need to eat any pie at all.

Gregs will be livid.

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Nov 18 - 12:17 PM

" In the 1930s it supported appeasement."
As did the British Government, even to the extent of members of the Royal family supporting the Nazis and teaching The Queen, as a child to give the Nazi salute

"In the 1940s it supported nationalisation."
To pay for the promises of "a home fit for heroes to live in"

The CBI has followed the lead of various Tory governments every step of the way - i oy object to this why the fuuck do you support Tory Policy as you do?

The rest speaks fro itself - Brexit has proved a shambls from day one and not one of those attemting to depose May has come up with an alternative

A right little fascist, your uido - but we knew that
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: DMcG
Date: 19 Nov 18 - 12:41 PM

DMcG wrote: I set out below what I mean by "going well" in a conversation with Keith.

Will you?
Date and time of this? The ....If this happens we could both decide that we do not need to eat any pie at all

That's sounding very like a 'no', you know, Stanron.

To be precise, Keith and I were only talking about the 'no-deal' case. As to the date and time, it is earlier in this very thread. I said 'below', which is a bit confusing because it depends how you read the threads, but 'earlier' is clear enough. And it was based on fairly measurable things, like whether the motorways are being used as lorry parks three months after March 29th 2019.

For 'a deal', I am not sure there is too much measureable we could address within a year, given nothing much is likely to change before the end of the transition.

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Nov 18 - 12:42 PM

"keepimg up a string of abuse instead of rational argument. Must be due to the pack mentality!
Are so stupid as not to realise how your abusive post complaining about abuse only underlines your own abusive stupidity
For Christs' sake - grow up
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Nov 18 - 12:42 PM

"keepimg up a string of abuse instead of rational argument. Must be due to the pack mentality!
Are so stupid as not to realise how your abusive post complaining about abuse only underlines your own abusive stupidity
For Christs' sake - grow up
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: DMcG
Date: 19 Nov 18 - 12:59 PM

Thinking about it, Stanron, there is no need to refer back to my conversation with Keith. I am quite happy if you suggest a list of things as measurable as whether the lorry parks are in use on such a date, that you are happy to use as tests of whether Brexit is a success or not. They need to be precise and measurable - things management theory refers to as S.M.A.R.T. rather than vague things like

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: DMcG
Date: 19 Nov 18 - 01:01 PM

Oops! .... like exchange rates where causes are challengable.

I may not agree the whole list, but with luck there will be enough be can both agree to.

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Raggytash
Date: 19 Nov 18 - 03:15 PM

Gentlemen,

Once again can I remind you of my opening post when I asked that people refrained from personal abuse and stuck firmly to the topic of the thread.

Please ..........

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Nov 18 - 03:48 PM

"But if all the leavers change their minds and vote "Remain" where will this sudden flash of 'intelligence' come from?
Answer me that!"

No sudden flash of intelligence required. We've wlll had two and a half years of learning-curve brexiteer bullshit to inform us. We know a lot more now, in particular about all those issues that the June 23 2016 brexit brigade thought would be so easy. The Irish border, for example. And they won't all change their minds. Some of them will though. Which is what you're scared of.

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Nov 18 - 03:49 PM

We've all had. Tsk.

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Iains
Date: 19 Nov 18 - 05:26 PM

A right little fascist, your uido? - but we knew that.
No. It is what you like to label him as. Let me help you. Fascism = As an economic system, fascism is socialism with a capitalist veneer. The word derives from fasces, the Roman symbol of collectivism and power: a tied bundle. Sounds more like a definition of the loony leftards to me!

Care to point out a flaw in his statements, in my post above?

You are getting very boring constantly attacking the messenger because you cannot deny the message. Do you not get tired of repeating the same approach? You do not convince anyone with half an active brain cell.
Why do you not attempt adult argument, or does that present too much of a challenge?

An interesting aside from guido. Why lefties are totally unable to grasp economics, and thus totally unfit to govern. They escape to la la land in their infancy. As shown below.

https://order-order.com/2018/11/19/left-wing-students-demand-nus-spending-response-5-4m-deficit/

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Nov 18 - 06:10 PM

Don't respond, Jim.

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: bobad
Date: 19 Nov 18 - 06:14 PM

Yes, Don't respond, Jim, lest you make yourself look more a fool.

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Nov 18 - 07:48 PM

Corbyn's Sky interview was quite impressive and sure-footed. I disagree with Jezza on lots of things, but his emphasis on protecting jobs (real ones), workers' rights on both sides of the Channel and on environmental issues was good to hear. The interviewer was not one to take prisoners but she never got the better of him.

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 19 Nov 18 - 09:48 PM

"Once again can I remind you of my opening post when I asked that people refrained from personal abuse and stuck firmly to the topic of the thread."

It would be far easier to 'stick firmly to the topic of the thread' if our resident Right-Wing Extremist would stop trying to drag it away from Brexit, and turning it into an anti-Labour, pro-Conservative party-propaganda-piece. Typical of the diversionary tactics of the Right when the paucity of their arguments, and the untenability of their position on any given subject, are exposed.

So...after two-and-a-half years of floundering by our incompetent and clueless Brexit negotiators, is there any good news about Brexit yet?

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Stanron
Date: 19 Nov 18 - 10:25 PM

Yes. It's about to happen.

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 20 Nov 18 - 01:38 AM

"Yes. It's about to happen."

Perhaps you could expand on that, and explain to us precisely the benefits we will all experience when it's happened?

But I'll bet you can't.

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 20 Nov 18 - 02:17 AM

Take your time, think carefully about it, and then give us a list of benefits we will all feel from leaving the EU. Not airy-fairy nonsense like "Take our country back", or "Make our own laws" - 'we' won't take anything back, and 'we' won't make laws, those are the province of politicians and their immensely-wealthy puppeteers, and anything they do will be for their benefit, not ours - but real, solid, tangible benefits that will positively impact the daily lives of every man, woman, and child in the UK.

It's not a trick question - it's the question those of us who voted Remain have been asking the Leavers from the very start of the referendum campaign. And we're still waiting for answers.

Over to you Stanron......we won't hold our breath.

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Nov 18 - 02:48 AM

"Don't respond, Jim."
Little point Baccy
This feller started off as a bullying wannabe and has turned into an unresponsive Troll who has no interest in either the subject or what others have to say
He doesn't need my, or anybody's responses he has Guido and fellow-Troll Bobad to keep him warm
If this thread is to continue as it should (especially this week) can I suggest that nobody rises to their abuses - their erudition will hardly be missed and their are far more interesting things happening for us to be dealing with dysfunctional children
Onwards and upward
Jim

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 20 Nov 18 - 03:12 AM

"Don't respond, Jim."

Ha! That was Steve, Jim! :-)
But I agree with him....

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Nov 18 - 03:37 AM

Thought you would - you usually do
Hope you don't think I don't appreciate having so many guardian angels reminding me that too much makes you go blind :-)
Jim

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Nov 18 - 05:06 AM

He doesn't agree with me about dogshite, Jim! :-)

I see that the hard-right Tory brexiteers have failed to garner the support needed to bring on a no-confidence vote. The idiots don't seem to realise that their recent tactics have served only to bring her sympathy and strengthen her. No doubt there will be some flaking away of Commons opposition to the deal. The tactic will be to blame MPs who vote against the deal for threatening a no-deal brexit, with the disastrous consequences that would entail. Of course, she has the option of going for another public vote...

Unlike the predictions made in late 1914, this one won't be over by Christmas...

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 20 Nov 18 - 05:31 AM

To be precise, Keith and I were only talking about the 'no-deal' case. As to the date and time, it is earlier in this very thread. I said 'below', which is a bit confusing because it depends how you read the threads, but 'earlier' is clear enough. And it was based on fairly measurable things, like whether the motorways are being used as lorry parks three months after March 29th 2019.
As a measure of the effects of Brexit, it needs to be made clear that the above is (presumably) talking about 'semi-permanent' use of the motorways as lorry parks. Let it be clear whether it is because of Brexit, rather than because of strikes in France

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Iains
Date: 20 Nov 18 - 05:50 AM

A Ratner moment as the mail morphs into the gruniard.

https://www.conservativewoman.co.uk/the-mails-gerald-ratner-moment/

Or as a former avid reader tweets:
Started buying the Telegraph this week after 30 years buying the Mail. Will miss Quentin Letts but the new editorial no longer chimes with me, might as well be the Guardian.

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Stanron
Date: 20 Nov 18 - 05:52 AM

Backwoodsman wrote: "Yes. It's about to happen."

Perhaps you could expand on that, and explain to us precisely the benefits we will all experience when it's happened?

Remember the USSR? A union of eastern European states that collapsed after almost seventy years. The collapse can be attributed to the financial incompetance which followed a political dogma that suppressed individual initiative and enterprise.

I see signs that the EU is becoming a kind of western European equivalent to the USSR. Not exactly the same of course but it has it's own dogma, and we have all seen the inflexibile adherence to that, and there is plenty of evidence of financial incompetance.

I'd say that the EU will collapse, or at least change significantly, in the next twenty years. The sooner we are out the better.

Incidentally, remembering that the extreme Left in UK politics has always been Communist, it isn't surprising that they are the strongest supporters of what is now happening in Europe.

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 20 Nov 18 - 05:56 AM

Very interesting guesswork, Stanron, but your response is the standard Righty-tactic of deflection, and in no way answers the question. So answer the damn question!

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: DMcG
Date: 20 Nov 18 - 06:02 AM

In am happy to accept the caveat that we will only assess whether motorways are being as lorry parks if there has been no strike in France in the preceding week, or other agreed period. Once the strike has been over for that period, can we then use it as one criteria of success or otherwise of Brexit?

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Stanron
Date: 20 Nov 18 - 06:06 AM

So kind of you to describe your own question as damned. The main benefit of being out is that when it all goes pear shaped we will suffer less.

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Nov 18 - 06:16 AM

"Not exactly the same of course..."

Well not quite. The EU comprises 28 sovereign democracies which all must abide by strict human rights standards and the rule of law. In terms of domestic laws, the states are independent. They must abide by laws and regulations to do with trade, tarriffs, quality and welfare standards and environmental considerations that have to be agreed by the democratically-arrived at decisions of all member states, and there is the power of veto, especially by larger states such as the UK, over major issues such as the founding of a European army. The vast bulk of domestic laws in this country have nothing to do with the EU, and in money terms about one percent of our GDP is tied up with the EU. So yes, Stanron, apart from all that we're just like the USSR, aren't we?

In other words, before you post such twaddle here, do bear in mind that you're not talking to a bunch of idiots. Thank you.

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Iains
Date: 20 Nov 18 - 06:18 AM

Care to take a little wager on that last statement?

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Nov 18 - 06:19 AM

"The collapse can be attributed to the financial incompetence which followed a political dogma that suppressed individual initiative and enterprise."
On the contrary; The Soviet Union collapse was aimed at by outside nations who feared 'The Domino effect) from the day it wa established
The "financial incompetence" transformed the former Russian Empire semi-feudal group of countries into a contender on the world stage in four decades, industrialising the State and even throwing missiles into Space, being the first nation to do so (which probably had more to do with their downfall than "industrial incompetence had) - all this, despite massive losses in two world wars and a Civil War which drew in 14 invading foreign armies fighting on the side of the opponents.
The Soviet Union was set up to develop the "initiative" of all its people to the full - one of the rights written into its constitution was "homes for all", rather than our situation which is "homes for those who can afford them"
The downfall of the S.U was due in part to bad, ruthless leadership, but given their starting point, they didn't do to badlly on the world stage, and they did so with the overwhelming support of the people - even in the most oppressive times of Stalin's rule
The same goes for China, who was worse than Tsarist Russia when they started out - overwhelmingly semi-feudal -t a world leader in less than thirty years.
No entrepreneur or fortune seeking enterprise wold ever have started on that path - no profit in it
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 20 Nov 18 - 06:22 AM

As I thought, and suggested earlier, you aren't giving us any solid, tangible benefits which we will all feel after Brexit because you can't.

Why am I not surprised?

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 20 Nov 18 - 06:27 AM

So, as Stanron has fallen at the first hurdle, can any of our other Brexiteer Bright-Sparks give us some actual benefits we will all feel the benefit of after we leave the EU? Guesswork and desperate hopes don't count.

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Raggytash
Date: 20 Nov 18 - 06:30 AM

So Stanron basically you have no idea of what benefits, if any, may result from us leaving the EU.

I am not surprised by this. Since the referendum I have not seen a positive forecast from any source whatsoever.

What I have seen is a government in absolute turmoil unable to agree a common strategy to any part of our leaving that will be of benefit to all parts of the UK.

What you, and all the others, can only promise is "pie in the sky"

(with apologies to Joel Emmanuel Hagglund)

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: DMcG
Date: 20 Nov 18 - 07:25 AM

If I have this right, Stanron, your hypothesis is that in a decade or two the EU will break up. By leaving now we incur a degree of pain - even Raab and Rees-Mogg agree about that - but the summation of that pain plus its consequences are less than the pain if we waited and fell out with everyone else.

What can you offer to support that hypothesis?

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: KarenH
Date: 20 Nov 18 - 07:43 AM

I note that the Mail today is referring to Rees-Mogg's 'Lemming Plot'. Little as I like the Mail, you have to acknowledge that they manage to find sound-bites that serve their purpose well.

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 20 Nov 18 - 07:57 AM

None of them can offer anything DMcG. In over 2 years there has been nothing positive from experts in this field so we should not expect anything from random people on a folk music forum.

I would say that the EU does have its problems and by leaving we are distancing ourselves from, for instance, the very poor treatment that Greece suffered. We will also be able to trade with non EU countries without having to apply tariffs. These are the sort of arguments they should expand on but they don't. I suspect it is because they now realise, like the rest of us, that the costs of these 'benefits' is far greater than the gains.

The current government debacle is not about leaving the EU. They know that is the worse possible outcome. It is about saving face and how they can stay in while pretending that they are still fulfilling the 'will of the people'. Brexit supporters are in the same position. They will just not admit that they were wrong, which is a perfectly human trait.

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: DMcG
Date: 20 Nov 18 - 08:01 AM

I wrote a few days ago that The government is fighting hard to ensure it does not have the right to cancel the Article 50 unilaterally. 

The UK Supreme Court has just ruled that the case should be heard by the ECJ as planned at the end of the month.

The government insists it will not withdraw Article 59. That is not the point at issue: they could decide not to withdraw it without needing the ECJ to rule they can't.

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: DMcG
Date: 20 Nov 18 - 08:02 AM

50, not 59. Small keyboards and large fingers are a pain, you know.

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Nov 18 - 08:10 AM

May's two major hurdles appear to be the The DUP have declared that they will not vote for the agreement and the Spanish have said tha they will vote against it in the EU parliament unless the Gibraltar question is clarified
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Nov 18 - 08:46 AM

Oh, and I forgot to mention, in my response to Stanron, another ever so slight difference between Soviet Russia and the EU. When we leave the EU, the tanks will not come rolling into the streets of our capital city. Hardly a difference worth mentioning, eh, though, Stanron? :-)

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Iains
Date: 20 Nov 18 - 09:30 AM

In over 2 years there has been nothing positive from experts in this field so we should not expect anything from random people on a folk music forum."

Who are the experts? the likes of mystic Meg? Judging by the major contributors here, there are a number of self proclaimed experts.But then one definition of an expert is: "whoever maketh the most noise".

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Raggytash
Date: 20 Nov 18 - 09:39 AM

Come on then Iains, you've had 30 months to come up with some positive outcomes for the UK from this situation.

So how about sharing them with us, something you and your co-brexiters, have signally failed to do thus far.

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Iains
Date: 20 Nov 18 - 09:51 AM

How do you discuss that which has not yet come to pass? All we have so far is proposals and opinion from very dubious experts. You may wish to work yourself into a frenzy over progressively more outlandish rumours that make a feeble attempt to masquerade as facts. Some of us are more
circumspect in our response to such provocations.
We have been told nothing is agreed   until everything is agreed. Otherwise we walk and keep the 35billion. (which increasingly looks like a fine idea)

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Donuel
Date: 20 Nov 18 - 09:54 AM

Dave as human traits go I am often wrong for the right reasons.

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Raggytash
Date: 20 Nov 18 - 10:04 AM

Iains, no one has, as yet, put forward any grounds for the "optimism" that Brexiteers seem to have about the future of the UK.

Almost without fail the forecasts have been bleakly pessimistic.

Now you may have reasonable grounds for your "optimism" but you have not told us what they are and understandably there are many who consider such grounds do not, in fact, exist.