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Contemporary Traditional Scottish Music?

Johnny J 07 Aug 18 - 06:32 AM
Jim Carroll 07 Aug 18 - 06:34 AM
Johnny J 07 Aug 18 - 06:50 AM
GUEST,kenny 07 Aug 18 - 06:54 AM
Nigel Parsons 07 Aug 18 - 06:58 AM
Johnny J 07 Aug 18 - 07:05 AM
Johnny J 07 Aug 18 - 07:10 AM
GUEST,Captain Swing 07 Aug 18 - 11:25 AM
Johnny J 07 Aug 18 - 11:41 AM
FreddyHeadey 07 Aug 18 - 12:00 PM
FreddyHeadey 07 Aug 18 - 12:07 PM
GUEST,kenny 07 Aug 18 - 12:35 PM
BobKnight 07 Aug 18 - 08:23 PM
punkfolkrocker 07 Aug 18 - 10:48 PM
Dave Hanson 08 Aug 18 - 02:02 AM
GUEST 08 Aug 18 - 06:21 AM
GUEST,Captain Swing 08 Aug 18 - 07:16 AM
punkfolkrocker 08 Aug 18 - 08:03 AM
GUEST,Jack Campin 08 Aug 18 - 08:17 AM
punkfolkrocker 08 Aug 18 - 08:51 AM
Will Fly 08 Aug 18 - 09:08 AM
michaelr 08 Aug 18 - 03:25 PM
FreddyHeadey 09 Aug 18 - 03:57 AM
Jack Campin 09 Aug 18 - 05:34 AM
FreddyHeadey 09 Aug 18 - 07:01 AM
FreddyHeadey 09 Aug 18 - 07:21 AM
GUEST,Richard Robinson 09 Aug 18 - 08:16 AM
GUEST,CJ 09 Aug 18 - 08:39 AM
punkfolkrocker 09 Aug 18 - 08:57 AM
GUEST,Observer 09 Aug 18 - 09:11 AM
punkfolkrocker 09 Aug 18 - 12:33 PM
Tattie Bogle 09 Aug 18 - 07:46 PM
Allan Conn 10 Aug 18 - 02:15 AM
punkfolkrocker 10 Aug 18 - 03:09 AM
Johnny J 10 Aug 18 - 05:38 AM
Tattie Bogle 11 Aug 18 - 09:14 AM
GUEST,Akenaton 11 Aug 18 - 10:03 AM
Will Fly 11 Aug 18 - 10:43 AM
GUEST 11 Aug 18 - 11:38 AM
GUEST,akenaton 11 Aug 18 - 11:39 AM
Will Fly 11 Aug 18 - 11:41 AM
GUEST,kenny 11 Aug 18 - 12:09 PM
punkfolkrocker 11 Aug 18 - 12:52 PM
Will Fly 11 Aug 18 - 01:07 PM
punkfolkrocker 11 Aug 18 - 01:12 PM
GUEST,Akenaton 11 Aug 18 - 01:24 PM
Will Fly 11 Aug 18 - 01:27 PM
GUEST 11 Aug 18 - 01:29 PM
GUEST 11 Aug 18 - 01:37 PM
punkfolkrocker 11 Aug 18 - 01:42 PM
gillymor 11 Aug 18 - 01:45 PM
GUEST,akenaton 11 Aug 18 - 01:46 PM
GUEST,akenaton 11 Aug 18 - 01:52 PM
GUEST,akenaton 13 Aug 18 - 02:12 PM
GUEST,Cj 13 Aug 18 - 04:19 PM
GUEST,Observer 13 Aug 18 - 05:44 PM
GUEST,Guest 13 Aug 18 - 08:18 PM
Will Fly 14 Aug 18 - 03:02 AM
GUEST,akenaton 14 Aug 18 - 03:59 AM
GUEST,Observer 14 Aug 18 - 04:07 AM
Will Fly 14 Aug 18 - 05:29 AM
GUEST,jag 14 Aug 18 - 05:34 AM
Johnny J 14 Aug 18 - 06:28 AM
GUEST,Observer 14 Aug 18 - 06:53 AM
Will Fly 14 Aug 18 - 07:39 AM
gillymor 14 Aug 18 - 08:14 AM
Kenny B (inactive) 14 Aug 18 - 10:16 AM
FreddyHeadey 14 Aug 18 - 10:47 AM
Gallus Moll 14 Sep 18 - 09:29 AM
GUEST,Observer 14 Sep 18 - 02:55 PM
GUEST,DTM 15 Sep 18 - 07:57 AM
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Subject: Contemporary Traditional Scottish Music?
From: Johnny J
Date: 07 Aug 18 - 06:32 AM

Just seen a tweet from the TMSA(Traditional Music and Song Assocation of Scotland) referring to something called

"Contemporary Traditional Scottish Music".

This was retweeted by The Scots Music Group.

Both of these organisations should really know better. I despair.
:-((                :-((


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Subject: RE: Contemporary Traditional Scottish Music?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Aug 18 - 06:34 AM

"I despair."
Me too
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Contemporary Traditional Scottish Music?
From: Johnny J
Date: 07 Aug 18 - 06:50 AM

To clarify my post, I'm not necessarily criticising the newer music. Some of it is really good.

However, it can only be one or the other.. i.e "traditional" or "contemporary".
The raison d'etre of the two organisations is basically the fostering and promotion of Traditional Scottish music. So I would have expected a better use of language here.


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Subject: RE: Contemporary Traditional Scottish Music?
From: GUEST,kenny
Date: 07 Aug 18 - 06:54 AM

Could it not be "contemporary, but in a traditional style" ? Just askin'. It's a bit difficult to say any more without knowing what it was they were referring to.


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Subject: RE: Contemporary Traditional Scottish Music?
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 07 Aug 18 - 06:58 AM

Without seeing the whole of the tweet it's difficult to even confirm that there's anything there to despair about.
With a heading: "Contemporary Traditional Scottish Music" it could be about contemporary performers of traditional Scottish music.


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Subject: RE: Contemporary Traditional Scottish Music?
From: Johnny J
Date: 07 Aug 18 - 07:05 AM

That could well be what they mean or, perhaps, it might be traditional musicians playing in a contemporary style?

The better younger musicians are actually very versatile and capable of playing various styles of music.
As I say, I actually like a lot of the new music. However, I think it's important not to be too vague or misleading(However, well intentioned) when reporting or describing it to a wider public.
If I hadn't already been following the music myself for such a long time, I wouldn't be sure what to expect.


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Subject: RE: Contemporary Traditional Scottish Music?
From: Johnny J
Date: 07 Aug 18 - 07:10 AM

Sorry, replying to Kenny there. Yes, Nigel, that's another possibility.

I'm not really "despairing", of course. Just my usual wee rant and I've also got a lot of respect for the TMSA(and SMG).

Basically, I'm just wondering if a term such as "Contemporary Traditional Scottish Music" is particularly helpful or useful.
I think not but, hopefully, we could discuss this?


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Subject: RE: Contemporary Traditional Scottish Music?
From: GUEST,Captain Swing
Date: 07 Aug 18 - 11:25 AM

Considering how quickly tunes by the likes of Phil Cunningham have been subsumed into the repertoires of traditional players I can easily understand the term "Contemporary Traditional Scottish Music".

And of course, all tunes that are now traditional were once contemporary. What's the big deal?


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Subject: RE: Contemporary Traditional Scottish Music?
From: Johnny J
Date: 07 Aug 18 - 11:41 AM

Phil Cunningham and many others compose new tunes in a traditional style or idiom.

Many others who may also be traditional players and musicians or have have a background in this music compose new music and partake in projects where the style of music is not remotely like this.

Nothing wrong with them doing this, of course, but a description such as "Contemporary Traditional Scottish Music" is too wide sweeping in my opinion and doesn't really tell us very much.


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Subject: RE: Contemporary Traditional Scottish Music?
From: FreddyHeadey
Date: 07 Aug 18 - 12:00 PM

A few folk artists featured in this year's *#SAYlonglist18* -
Chris Stout & Catriona McKay; Elephant Sessions; Karine Polwart & Pippa Murphy;
plus
Blue Rose Code whose album features several traditional musicians.

Great to see contemporary traditional Scottish music represented!



https://mobile.twitter.com/TMSAScotland/status/1026761933440131072?ref_src=twsrc




~~~~~~~~~~~~
" ... Boasting a lucrative £20,000 prize for the winner and nine runner up prizes of £1,000 each, the award celebrates, promotes and rewards the most outstanding Scottish albums released each year.

Albums of the Day
Everyday from Monday 6 August until Sunday 19 August we'll be sharing our Albums of the Day on social media using #SAYlonglist18"

On The Longlist

Best Girl Athlete
Best Girl Athlete

Blue Rose Code
The Water of Leith

Adam Holmes and The Embers
Midnight Milk

BABE
Kiss & Tell

Catholic Action
In Memory Of

Chris Stout and Catriona McKay
Bare Knuckle

Elephant Sessions
All We Have Is Now

Franz Ferdinand
Always Ascending

Golden Teacher
No Luscious Life

Happy Meals
Full Ashram Devotional Ceremony (Volumes IV - VI)

Karine Polwart with Pippa Murphy
A Pocket of Wind Resistance

Kobi Onyame
Gold

Martha Ffion
Sunday Best

Mogwai
Every Country's Sun

Neon Waltz
Strange Hymns

Out Lines
Conflats

Pronto Mama
Any Joy

Siobhan Wilson
There Are No Saints

The Spook School
Could It Be Different?

Young Fathers
Cocoa Sugar

https://www.sayaward.com


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Subject: RE: Contemporary Traditional Scottish Music?
From: FreddyHeadey
Date: 07 Aug 18 - 12:07 PM

here's a Stout\McKay track

Bare Knuckle
https://youtu.be/IGByokenWlA


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Subject: RE: Contemporary Traditional Scottish Music?
From: GUEST,kenny
Date: 07 Aug 18 - 12:35 PM

If that's what they're talking about, it's contemporary Scottish music - damn all traditional music in there that I'm aware of.


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Subject: RE: Contemporary Traditional Scottish Music?
From: BobKnight
Date: 07 Aug 18 - 08:23 PM

I write new songs in Traditional style, or if you prefer, contemporary songs in traditional style. Thread title is a bit convoluted.


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Subject: RE: Contemporary Traditional Scottish Music?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 07 Aug 18 - 10:48 PM

errrrmmm... wouldn't Contemporary and Traditional cancel each other out...???

..so it's just Scottish Music then....


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Subject: RE: Contemporary Traditional Scottish Music?
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 08 Aug 18 - 02:02 AM

I once had a blistering arguement with someone on the session.org message board who said he had composed several ' traditional tunes ' he failed to grasp the difference between contemporary and traditional, he seemed to think that composing in a traditional style made it traditional.

Dave H


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Subject: RE: Contemporary Traditional Scottish Music?
From: GUEST
Date: 08 Aug 18 - 06:21 AM

D'oh. Why should the terms contemporary and traditional cancel each other out? Tradition doesn't just mean old... traditions continue in the contemporary era.


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Subject: RE: Contemporary Traditional Scottish Music?
From: GUEST,Captain Swing
Date: 08 Aug 18 - 07:16 AM

I couldn't agree more Guest. A tradition must continue to evolve if it is to remain a tradition so in that sense it must be 'of the time' i.e. contemporary.

In the 70s we talked about contemporary folk. This usually meant singer/songwriters with guitars ranging from Paul Simon and Dylan to locals performing newly crafted songs, often love songs. It's interesting that for the most part (Dylan not included) those songs have remained as they are and have not evolved or have disappeared from view. On the other hand the trad songs we were sing have continued, changed, been presented in different formats etc. So the trad songs remain more contemporary than the ex-contemporary songs which, for the most part sound dated (Paul Simon not included).


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Subject: RE: Contemporary Traditional Scottish Music?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 08 Aug 18 - 08:03 AM

GUEST - in essence.. labeling music for any purpose, academic or marketing,
never ending mudcat disputes, or whatever else...

can ultimately end up just being complete pedantic bollocks...

see my name....


[it used to be punkfolkfunkdiscorocker until I started getting to fat to dance...]


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Subject: RE: Contemporary Traditional Scottish Music?
From: GUEST,Jack Campin
Date: 08 Aug 18 - 08:17 AM

I don't see a problem with the term, and it does fit people like Phil Cunningham and Chris Stout.

It does NOT describe Eddi Reader, Karine Polwart or Franz Ferdinand. (Whether it applies to Blue Rose Code I have no idea - I'm so sick of seeing spammed adverts for them that I will never listen to anything they do if I can help it).


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Subject: RE: Contemporary Traditional Scottish Music?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 08 Aug 18 - 08:51 AM

Well I know I definitely typed "too"...

but any mysterious things can happen when previewing and editing in the mudcat typing box...


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Subject: RE: Contemporary Traditional Scottish Music?
From: Will Fly
Date: 08 Aug 18 - 09:08 AM

There are a lot of good, modern tunes - not just in Scotland - which follow the styles and formats of traditional tunes, and fit neatly into sessions and similar gatherings. Andy Cutting, Phil Cunningham, John Kirkpatrick and Chris Wood are examples of composers writing in the idiom.

Unlike all the squabblings about folk song, their tunes - and old and modern tunes from other countries (think Cape Breton, American old-time, etc.) can mesh seamlessly at sessions. If the tunes get the feet tapping and our spirits rising, we don't really give a toss about provenance.


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Subject: RE: Contemporary Traditional Scottish Music?
From: michaelr
Date: 08 Aug 18 - 03:25 PM

Capercaillie, and more recently Julie Fowlis, have created contemporary arrangements of traditional tunes and Gaelic songs. To great effect, IMO.


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Subject: RE: Contemporary Traditional Scottish Music?
From: FreddyHeadey
Date: 09 Aug 18 - 03:57 AM

I'm sitting on the fence.

What about this from Tom Kitching
"... Progressing the tradition is not just acceptable, but essential. Playing solely in the manner of what went before is re-enactment, not tradition. Successful traditions survive by changing a little, year-on-year to remain relevant to their practitioners and audiences. Something can only be traditional if it has an element of re-invention and progression about it. Otherwise, you are the musical equivalent of the Sealed Knot. Again, there’s nothing wrong with this, but such performance should be labelled re-enactment, not tradition.

Every previous generation of traditional musicians in England learned from the generation that went before them. My generation are the first to have the luxury of the knowledge of more than one generation to learn from. However, the people that inspired me to take it up are the revivalists, and their music is that which I largely seek to build on, shape and alter. I will know I’ve made it as a musician (Unlikely, I concede!) if the following generation takes my music as the standard to overthrow. All creative arts live in a state of destruction and re-invention. To remain relevant, traditional music must be free to do the same.

The traditional musician sits on the fulcrum between past and future.
They know where their music came from, and they will shape it and alter it with total freedom of expression. The best ideas will be heard by the next generation who will repeat the process. This act is the folk process that so polished the songs and tunes collected in the past and allowed them to survive. Restrict it and you kill traditional music."

more >
https://buskengland.wordpress.com/2018/07/20/the-sacred-cows-of-the-english-tradition-and-how-best-to-slaughter-them/


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Subject: RE: Contemporary Traditional Scottish Music?
From: Jack Campin
Date: 09 Aug 18 - 05:34 AM

Tom Kitching is only a name to me, I've no idea what he does. What kind of music was he trying to promote with that vague waffle?


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Subject: RE: Contemporary Traditional Scottish Music?
From: FreddyHeadey
Date: 09 Aug 18 - 07:01 AM

As a little diversion but I'm not sure it deserves its own thread

Folk musicians playing a modern "classical" piece with an orchestra :

Composer Sally Beamish, fiddler Chris Stout and harpist Catriona McKay on 'Seavaigers'
https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p03g4728 (14 minutes)


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Jack, I'll get back to you after I've googled a few links.


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Subject: RE: Contemporary Traditional Scottish Music?
From: FreddyHeadey
Date: 09 Aug 18 - 07:21 AM

Tom Kitching

? slightly rockish folk instrumentals ?

Bay of Flies
https://youtu.be/zTUwwmddIEQ 

Cobblers Hornpipe
https://youtu.be/SRPwZlcBz8E 

& with the band Pilgrims Way
https://youtu.be/niH074YILJ8 

fiddle class
https://youtu.be/VjWSeEa_7N4?t=1m25s

session
https://youtu.be/H6kC54k7teE 


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Subject: RE: Contemporary Traditional Scottish Music?
From: GUEST,Richard Robinson
Date: 09 Aug 18 - 08:16 AM

I like that comment about re-enactment societies.

"Tradition is the preservation of fire, not the worship of ashes" - credited by The Internet to probably Gustav Mahler.


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Subject: RE: Contemporary Traditional Scottish Music?
From: GUEST,CJ
Date: 09 Aug 18 - 08:39 AM

My problem with this:

" Successful traditions survive by changing a little, year-on-year to remain relevant to their practitioners and audiences. Something can only be traditional if it has an element of re-invention and progression about it. Otherwise, you are the musical equivalent of the Sealed Knot. "

Is that almost every single time, the "re-invention and progression" involves bringing on board a really uninspired version of another genre. So, pub rock guitars or basic drum programming. And then, as a music fan, I don't hear it and think "Wow! They're stretching the definition of what could be called the tradition!" I just think - "Wow. They've made themselves sound like an average pub band from 1975. How progressive. How inventive."

Sure, do something different with the music - play the pub rock if that's what inspires you - but don't pretend it's reinvention. It's pouring a bad curry on an average pizza. Doesn't make anything better, just makes you fat.


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Subject: RE: Contemporary Traditional Scottish Music?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 09 Aug 18 - 08:57 AM

"It's pouring a bad curry on an average pizza. Doesn't make anything better, just makes you fat."

.. but it makes a great cold leftovers breakfast the morning after...


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Subject: RE: Contemporary Traditional Scottish Music?
From: GUEST,Observer
Date: 09 Aug 18 - 09:11 AM

"I just think - "Wow. They've made themselves sound like an average pub band from 1975. How progressive. How inventive."

Sure, do something different with the music - play the pub rock if that's what inspires you - but don't pretend it's reinvention. It's pouring a bad curry on an average pizza. Doesn't make anything better, just makes you fat."


Well stated GUEST,CJ

If that is indeed what you think makes a good breakfast pfr, then no wonder your dancing days are over due to your weight and probably explains the amount of time you seem to spend sat on the toilet. Ain't lifestyle choices a bitch.

I'd say that with regard to songs Brian McNeill does an excellent job of writing songs with historical themes in a traditional style. Bob Knight above also writes and performs "new" material written in a traditional style very, very well.


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Subject: RE: Contemporary Traditional Scottish Music?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 09 Aug 18 - 12:33 PM

GUEST,Observer - Apparently most seated folk venues will not permit me to bring in a donna kebab & chips,
and a portable lightweight commode...

what's wrong with the world - it's WC gone mad...



mind you.. I also enjoy an occasional haggis with curry sauce...


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Subject: RE: Contemporary Traditional Scottish Music?
From: Tattie Bogle
Date: 09 Aug 18 - 07:46 PM

At Sidmouth Folk Week, where Scotland has been represented by a good selection of artists, who have been billed on various concerts as "Sounds of Modern Scotland": this is perhaps a better term than the one in contention here, and seems to cover what is being played in Scotland now, whether traditional, contemporary but in traditional style, or verging on the punkfolkrock. It doesn't mean, to me, at least, that it's all modern music.
And as Will has said, it is perfectly possible to make up a set of tunes to include both very old and very new ones. and unless you knew them beforehand, sometimes hard to tell if they were written in the 1700s or just last week, if the modern composer has tried to write in the traditional idiom.


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Subject: RE: Contemporary Traditional Scottish Music?
From: Allan Conn
Date: 10 Aug 18 - 02:15 AM

"Whether it applies to Blue Rose Code I have no idea" Jack to be fair to Ross Wilson (ie Blue Rose Code) he doesn't claim to be a folk or traditional artist. In his bio on his FB page he specifically classes himself as a "genre dodger". He just plays his music. The article in question says that several folk musicians play on his latest album but likewise so do several jazz musicians.


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Subject: RE: Contemporary Traditional Scottish Music?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 10 Aug 18 - 03:09 AM

The thing is... generally, do non musicians care more about definitions than musicians do...???


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Subject: RE: Contemporary Traditional Scottish Music?
From: Johnny J
Date: 10 Aug 18 - 05:38 AM

"do non musicians care more about definitions than musicians do...??? "

Those who seem to care most are those who are in the business of "selling" the music in some way.
Whether it may commercial tour promotors, record/music sales etc, festival organisers and even some of the artists themselves. One of Lau's earlier earlier projects was called "Reiventing The Reel" which everyone else except me at the time thought was a really clever wheeze.

Also many reviewers and writers will also use fancy descriptions and jargon to convey or "sell" their opinions. Again, they may write some very clever and imaginative stuff but the reader will still be left none the wiser.

That's my main point really. There's no point in "labelling", describing, or defining anything unless the person(s) for whom it is intended becomes better informed as a result.
A term like "Contemporary Traditional Scottish Music" is just too ambigous, in my opinion. I had a pretty good idea of what they meant but only because I already know the ethos of The TMSA themselves. A casual reader or member of the general public who doesn't follow the music to the same extent will not.

I remember when the term "Americana" first became fashionable. All manner of music was being promoted with this description. Everything from singer song writers, to old time American genres, also blue grass, and Country and Western music. As a definition, it was and still is meaningless unless you actually know and trust the actual promotors, journalists, radio presenters etc and realising from where they are coming.

In my opinion, it is important that listeners and potential audience members have, at least, a rough idea of what to expect when they are considering whether or not to purchase concerts tickets, albums etc from musicians and singers with whom they are less familiar. It's not as if very much of this music gets played on the radio or is featured on main stream media in general. So, we have to rely on specialist organisations and publications to a great extent. While it is much easier to "Google" information and even recordings, streamings etc these days, this is still a time consuming process. We shouldn't really need to have to "research" every single artist and/or their music before going to a gig.


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Subject: RE: Contemporary Traditional Scottish Music?
From: Tattie Bogle
Date: 11 Aug 18 - 09:14 AM

Re your last paragraph Johnny Jay, even going to see your (previously) favourite artistes is no guarantee that they will play the sort of music for which they are famed and you loved: once they start forming new bands and doing "contemporary traditional", pushing the boundaries into jazz and rock'n'roll ........yes, there have been a few surprises and disappointments this last week !!


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Subject: RE: Contemporary Traditional Scottish Music?
From: GUEST,Akenaton
Date: 11 Aug 18 - 10:03 AM

"Those who seem to care most are those who are in the business of "selling" the music in some way."
As usual, Johnny makes a succinct point, few performers or even audiences really "care" for the music in the way that the older performers did and their enthusiasm was transmitted to audiences through the medium of the music...Early groups like the Islanders, the Humblebums,Alex Campbell, Matt McGinn,Hamish Imlach, etc used to often perform just for the sheer love of it.
They became local heros to all who attended their performances and became good friends of many.
Folk music was a social movement.....until the politicos moved in.


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Subject: RE: Contemporary Traditional Scottish Music?
From: Will Fly
Date: 11 Aug 18 - 10:43 AM

I know scores of excellent musicians in the folk and related music styles, who love the music that they play - who play with huge enthusiasm and skill - who communicate that enthusiasm to those around them. Some are amateur, some are professional, some inhabit both worlds from time to time. For all of them, the first imperative is love of the music.

If you believe that there are only a few people like this, then you should get out more and stop trying to make political capital out of your own beliefs.

Music is not all TV and the broadcast media - just in case you'd forgotten. When I think of the musicians that I meet and play with regularly in my locality alone, then I consider your comments to be an insult to both old and young generations of performers.


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Subject: RE: Contemporary Traditional Scottish Music?
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Aug 18 - 11:38 AM

Oh I get out alright Will and at most venues the focal point is the CD stall. This after paying over the odds to hear uninspiring, introverted rubbish, without any audience participation of any kind, other than the surrendering of their cash.
Fortunately,(for some performers) the audiences of today seem to comprise of an "arty, middle class intelligencia", who have been conditioned into the acceptance of masochism.
I have noted your comments and in my opinion the stuff produced by many (not all)of todays performers is an insult to traditional and contemporary music.....and the real characters who brought it back to the people.
Tough, but true.


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Subject: RE: Contemporary Traditional Scottish Music?
From: GUEST,akenaton
Date: 11 Aug 18 - 11:39 AM

Lest there be any misunderstanding, that was masell


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Subject: RE: Contemporary Traditional Scottish Music?
From: Will Fly
Date: 11 Aug 18 - 11:41 AM

All I can say is that we move in very different musical circles.

"Tough but true" - crap and untrue.

Enough said.


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Subject: RE: Contemporary Traditional Scottish Music?
From: GUEST,kenny
Date: 11 Aug 18 - 12:09 PM

"Folk music was a social movement.....until the politicos moved in".
And when, exactly was that, and who are / were these "politicos"? Actually, please define what you mean by a "politico" ?


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Subject: RE: Contemporary Traditional Scottish Music?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 11 Aug 18 - 12:52 PM

I'll just say that I can partially agree with and see validity in both Ake's and Will's statements...
and don't see any necessity for a punch up between them, or their gangs of mates...

..does that make me an ineffectual liberal fence sitter...???

well... I wouldn't say so on my past record of healthy assertive intolerance
of wishy washy middle class numpties...


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Subject: RE: Contemporary Traditional Scottish Music?
From: Will Fly
Date: 11 Aug 18 - 01:07 PM

The man insults my many musician friends - including many on this forum.


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Subject: RE: Contemporary Traditional Scottish Music?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 11 Aug 18 - 01:12 PM

anyone can insult me as a musician much as they like...

and they will when I eventually upload my musical irritant to the middle class folkie establishment...


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Subject: RE: Contemporary Traditional Scottish Music?
From: GUEST,Akenaton
Date: 11 Aug 18 - 01:24 PM

I pay my money and say as I see fit. If you or your friends feel insulted then you must fit into my scenario of modern "folk music".
The great social movement which took place during the revival and afterwards really drew people of all ages and classes together, whether it was shedding a tear for the wee lassie deserted and pregnant, or liftin' the roof aff with a rousing chorus....folks were actively encouraged to participate......now they are urged to decorum and shepherded to the CD stall.


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Subject: RE: Contemporary Traditional Scottish Music?
From: Will Fly
Date: 11 Aug 18 - 01:27 PM

You're an idiot. Do you think that the hundreds of musicians who play the music they love - for the love of it - fit into your particular world view?


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Subject: RE: Contemporary Traditional Scottish Music?
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Aug 18 - 01:29 PM

My old Uncle used tae say ....."Ye cannae insult me, ah'm far too ignorant" :0)


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Subject: RE: Contemporary Traditional Scottish Music?
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Aug 18 - 01:37 PM

A wise man, that uncle.


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Subject: RE: Contemporary Traditional Scottish Music?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 11 Aug 18 - 01:42 PM

Will - I have great respect for you as an individual musician and mentor..

..and I'm very sparing and selective with respect...

Ake, despite being a politically dubious pariah,
can occasionally make points worth considering,
that should not just be dismissed out of hand
because of who he is and what he says on certain sensitive social issues...

I also get the impression that middle class folkies champion Trad Folk's history
as the music of the common people,
while finding real working class folks to be too chavvy and vulgar
for their delicate sensitivities...


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Subject: RE: Contemporary Traditional Scottish Music?
From: gillymor
Date: 11 Aug 18 - 01:45 PM

You're being trolled, Will. He's been cashiered from the B.S. Section so he's stirring up shit in the Music section. Pathetic.


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Subject: RE: Contemporary Traditional Scottish Music?
From: GUEST,akenaton
Date: 11 Aug 18 - 01:46 PM

Aye, he left school at fourteen and worked as a labourer all his days, but he was the wisest man I've ever known.


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Subject: RE: Contemporary Traditional Scottish Music?
From: GUEST,akenaton
Date: 11 Aug 18 - 01:52 PM

Couldn't agree more PFR(except for the "dubious pariah"bit)...naethin' jubius aboot me!!

You're wasted on BS, mixin' we the likes o' Gilly.....puir sowl! :0(


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Subject: RE: Contemporary Traditional Scottish Music?
From: GUEST,akenaton
Date: 13 Aug 18 - 02:12 PM

It appears ever more evident that "Folk Music" is becoming just another niche sector of the music industry, to be exploited until it loses any claim to be a social movement.
A precious jewel bartered for a handful of rice.


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Subject: RE: Contemporary Traditional Scottish Music?
From: GUEST,Cj
Date: 13 Aug 18 - 04:19 PM

"Is becoming"?

It became that many, many decades ago.

But like every other genre, it has plenty enough "folk" who do it for the music, still.

When something becomes popular, it gets monetized, simple. And some people, brigands all, love both the music and the money, damn their eyes.


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Subject: RE: Contemporary Traditional Scottish Music?
From: GUEST,Observer
Date: 13 Aug 18 - 05:44 PM

"even going to see your (previously) favourite artistes is no guarantee that they will play the sort of music for which they are famed and you loved: once they start forming new bands and doing "contemporary traditional", pushing the boundaries into jazz and rock'n'roll"

Anyone performing music that can be described as jazz or rock'n'roll has got no business at all in trying to con an audience by referring to what they play as being "traditional Scottish music" contemporary or not. I can see Akenaton's point and I believe that Will Fly is sincere in what he says, but the facts would seem to support the view that the "folk club" scene and "folk music" is dying a death in the UK.


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Subject: RE: Contemporary Traditional Scottish Music?
From: GUEST,Guest
Date: 13 Aug 18 - 08:18 PM

The thread title is a perfect oxymoron - or perhaps that is what the question mark is implying?


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Subject: RE: Contemporary Traditional Scottish Music?
From: Will Fly
Date: 14 Aug 18 - 03:02 AM

the facts would seem to support the view that the "folk club" scene and "folk music" is dying a death in the UK

Not in my part of the world (Sussex), where I could be out at a club, a session or a singaround in my area almost every night of the week. Domestic and other arrangements have intervened this week; but for those, after my pub gig on Sunday afternoon, I could have been at a session up the road from me in my village, at a village singaround a few miles away on Monday evening. I'm missing singaround/sessions on Tuesday (tonight) and tomorrow and, if I wanted it, a workshop and folk club evening on Saturday because I'll be away on holiday.

As I said in an earlier post, I know many very talented, local musicians who play at these places, for fun, for love of the music and for the occasion. I don't question the fact that there may be less productive musical areas in the country - and the folk club scene has diminished. The real point I was making was - and is - that these people play music together for the joy it brings them and others. This is my personal experience - come down here and see it for yourself.


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Subject: RE: Contemporary Traditional Scottish Music?
From: GUEST,akenaton
Date: 14 Aug 18 - 03:59 AM

One of the problems is the shift away from the vocal side to purely instrumental music, This leads to little groups of people who are reasonably proficient playing to/with themselves.
Unlike Ireland, we no longer have a strong dance tradition to back this up.
Public participation was the magic ingredient in the revival and the need to connect socially is there and still very necessary.
Will has a point of sorts, but would be well advised to moderate his language if he wishes to advance it.
If Guest Observer sees my point in this discussion then I know I must be on the right road, as his/her views have my utmost respect on most subjects.


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Subject: RE: Contemporary Traditional Scottish Music?
From: GUEST,Observer
Date: 14 Aug 18 - 04:07 AM

Do they play a lot of "Contemporary Traditional Scottish Music" down in Sussex Will? That is after all what this thread is about. From personal experience I know that in the neighbouring county of Hampshire it was rarely performed. The norm there was sixties pop songs and covers of the output of various well known singer/songwriters who were trying their damnedest to write a 'pop' song but failed so they called it "folk". I believe that you have clearly stated in a previous post on another thread that you do not tend to perform "traditional" material.


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Subject: RE: Contemporary Traditional Scottish Music?
From: Will Fly
Date: 14 Aug 18 - 05:29 AM

We play and sing a mixture of traditional songs and tunes from a variety of places. I play in a ceilidh band; I have Scottish, Irish and English roots, as it happens, and two other members of the band are Scottish - so what we play is very varied, with lots of good Scottish material. Sussex also has a number of musicians with Swedish connections, so a lot of Swedish tunes have strayed comfortably into the area - and very good they are.

Lewes, of course, was the home of two excellent clubs - one of which ran successfully for many years, but ceased with the retirement of Vic Smith of this parish. The remaining club, run by a team led by Valmai Goodyear and Bryan Creer (The Snail to you) is going strong, with a packed calendar of day workshops and evening performances from performers both national and local.

The Lewes club also has two excellent volumes of tunes from Sussex - "Lewes Favourites" - 285 tunes in all. A quote from the website:

The tunes are now available as two books, price £10 for Volume 1 (180 tunes) and £12 for Volume 2 (105 tunes)illustrated with dance notations from Sussex manuscripts, anecdotes, photographs of the habitats where they flourish and an index of the combinations in which they are often played. Click here for ordering details.   Alternatively, you can obtain them in various computerised forms. Discreet tape recorders are welcome [at the tunes practice sessions] if you don't read music.

Get the picture?

If idiotic, blanket statements about a whole genre of music are made on this forum, and insulting remarks about performers - with no supporting evidence other than opinion - then I reserve the right to call the maker of that statement an idiot.


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Subject: RE: Contemporary Traditional Scottish Music?
From: GUEST,jag
Date: 14 Aug 18 - 05:34 AM

As someone said yesterday in another mudcat discussion "When something becomes popular, it gets monetized".

I can imagine a skilled Neanderthal singer and bone flute player being being enticed to a party in the cave further down the cliff by the promise of a belly full of mammoth steak.

People, including poor people, "making money" out of their skills seems to be a late 20th century (so in the this context "second revival") concern.


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Subject: RE: Contemporary Traditional Scottish Music?
From: Johnny J
Date: 14 Aug 18 - 06:28 AM

Re the thread title "Contemporary Traditional Scottish Music?"

It could have been more specific but they don't give you much space to elaborate in the title section.

However, within my first two or three posts I hoped that I had clarified my intentions sufficiently. The thread wasn't intended to be about the actual music itself whatever we decided the description meant but more the use of language. To me, such a term is certainly misleading, uninformative, and as others have stated, an oxymoron.

With all forms of music, there is some I like and some I don't for various reasons but that's not my main concern here. Obviously, discussions will "drift" but I'm a little saddened that this thread has now just become a slanging match against younger musicians and also between some members.


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Subject: RE: Contemporary Traditional Scottish Music?
From: GUEST,Observer
Date: 14 Aug 18 - 06:53 AM

Well Will I guess you just have to go on what people write and take it at face value. By the way this was you writing the following wasn't it:

Will Fly
Date: 20 May 18 - 11:45 AM

I couldn't agree more, Jim - I don't sing traditional "UK" songs because, on the whole, they simply just don't appeal to me. To be honest, I'm far more interested in melody, harmony, rhythm, musical form, technique and similar matters than in words - which is why I favour playing tunes over singing.

Having said that, I'm a great fan of 1930s popular song - sneered at, I'm afraid, by some on this forum as "Tin Pan Alley - from masters such as Kern, Gershwin, Warren, etc. I suppose, at heart, I'm just an old jazzer. Bob Copper once told me that his dad's favourite, non-folk, song was "Brother, Can You Spare A Dime" - so I'm not in bad company. :-)


By way of a casual observation, the above does not quite match up with your last contribution to this thread, where apparently you:

1. "play and sing a mixture of traditional songs and tunes from a variety of places."

2. "play in a ceilidh band;" [Not many old "Jazzers" do that]

3. "have Scottish, Irish and English roots, as it happens," Congratulations Will I would imagine that would make you exactly the same as the vast majority of the population of these islands and means absolutely nothing as does the fact that "two other members of the band are Scottish"


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Subject: RE: Contemporary Traditional Scottish Music?
From: Will Fly
Date: 14 Aug 18 - 07:39 AM

I've spent 50+ years playing and singing a wide variety of music, from folk to jug band music, jazz, rock'n roll, funk/soul and back traditional tunes in a ceilidh band and at sessions and singarounds - sometimes simultaneously.

I'm quite open about what I play and why I play it.Go to my YouTube channel and check out what I do - which includes many, many lessons for beginners and a wide variety of music. Check out my website for the free transcriptions for solo guitar and tenor guitar. It's sometimes invidious having to nail one's colours blatantly to the mast, but there you go.

Your turn.

You asked if we play contemporary traditional Scottish music down in Sussex. Yes, we do, amongst other things, because the background that some of us grew up in, was Scottish. I was brought up in Glasgow. Lots of traditional Scottish melodies of unknown origin, some by known composers such as Scott Skinner, and some modern takes on the style. Would you call Phil Cunningham, Tom Anderson "contemporary"? What about the more modern take on Scottish songs by people like Old Blind Dogs, who I think are excellent.

Anyway, I'm away to France now, for a fortnight of food, sun, sea and - with a bit of luck - some Breton tunes in the company of excellent musicians. You can talk among yourselves.


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Subject: RE: Contemporary Traditional Scottish Music?
From: gillymor
Date: 14 Aug 18 - 08:14 AM

Will is out in the real world playing music and very generously sharing his vast repertoire, expertise and overall musicality with the rest of us and I,for one, am grateful. He's hardly deserving of the arrogant, condescending nitpickery going on here.


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Subject: RE: Contemporary Traditional Scottish Music?
From: Kenny B (inactive)
Date: 14 Aug 18 - 10:16 AM

Excellent post Gillymor
Enjoy yourself in France Will


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Subject: RE: Contemporary Traditional Scottish Music?
From: FreddyHeadey
Date: 14 Aug 18 - 10:47 AM

wot gillymor said

+ 1

(in the absence of a 'like' button)


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Subject: RE: Contemporary Traditional Scottish Music?
From: Gallus Moll
Date: 14 Sep 18 - 09:29 AM

it is completely pointless attempting to respond to GUEST observer - a tedious troll. Ignoring him seems to work!


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Subject: RE: Contemporary Traditional Scottish Music?
From: GUEST,Observer
Date: 14 Sep 18 - 02:55 PM

Whatever Gallus - surprised at the belated reaction to my 4 posts in a 70 post thread to which you have contributed nothing - by the way how's that search going for Laning's Eskimo's remark. It is also very easy to ignore somebody when you have absolutely no answers to the points raised. Keep mumpin' on Gallus itis highly amusing.


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Subject: RE: Contemporary Traditional Scottish Music?
From: GUEST,DTM
Date: 15 Sep 18 - 07:57 AM

"If it's no' Scottish, it's crap" - Michael Myers character from Saturday Night Live. Just a wee quote to try and lighten things up on this thread. ;-)

The bottom line? Music is music, whether traditional, contemporary or hybrid. It's really each to their own.


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