BS: Johnson shows his colours (again)

Subject: RE: BS: Johnson shows his colours (again)
From: Iains
Date: 12 Aug 18 - 01:41 PM

Oh Dear! Corbyn has a bit of a headache. Don't think he can creep away from this damming report! and look who is saying it.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6052223/Pressure-mounts-Corbyn-Munich-terrorist-wreath-speech-Holocaust-deniers-wedding.

This will be a bit of meat for the squealers. They seem only capable of
insults recently. They must have thrown all their other toys out of the pram.

Subject: RE: BS: Johnson shows his colours (again)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Aug 18 - 01:33 PM

""and he is good comedy value.."
Used to be - now he's just boring
He knows ***** well why Totynbee's feminist attitude to the berka is not racist- he's long had his answer
He chooses to make it so because he has nothing else to offer
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Johnson shows his colours (again)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Aug 18 - 01:33 PM

""and he is good comedy value.."
Used to be - now he's just boring
He knows ***** well why Totynbee's feminist attitude to the berka is not racist- he's long had his answer
He chooses to make it so because he has nothing else to offer
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Johnson shows his colours (again)
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 12 Aug 18 - 01:25 PM

Should mudcat ban Keith the Berka...???

No of course not... we try to tolerate crackpot zealots,
not because we want to,
but because we respect the principle of diversity - so persevere in putting up with him...

..and he is good comedy value...

Subject: RE: BS: Johnson shows his colours (again)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 Aug 18 - 01:22 PM

Who are you attempting to silence Rag, and why?

Subject: RE: BS: Johnson shows his colours (again)
From: Raggytash
Date: 12 Aug 18 - 01:16 PM

IGNORE!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Johnson shows his colours (again)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 Aug 18 - 01:13 PM

If Johnson's remarks make him a racist Islamophobe, Polly Toynbee is a much worse one.
Is that really what you think?

Likewise Yasmin Alibhai-Brown. She likens women wearing burkas to ravens and supports a national ban!

She is Left Wing and Muslim. A racist Islamophobe? Really?

Or, is this all bollocks and political opportunism, not racism at all?

Subject: RE: BS: Johnson shows his colours (again)
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 12 Aug 18 - 09:42 AM

One of the games I occasionally play
is imagining which politicians look most at home and authentic
in a high ranking n@zi officer's uniform...

All he needs to do is comb his hair...

Subject: RE: BS: Johnson shows his colours (again)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Aug 18 - 09:34 AM

"I cannot recall any outrage expressed when nuns are describes as penguins."
Nuns are not a persecuted group - far from it
Your filth is aimed as a community historically terrorised and abused by citizens of the host nation - from graffiti attacks to 'Paki-bashing'
You come from a long line of abusers
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Johnson shows his colours (again)
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 12 Aug 18 - 09:15 AM

All pretty succinctly summed up in The Rochdale Herald...

Subject: RE: BS: Johnson shows his colours (again)
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 12 Aug 18 - 09:15 AM

All pretty succinctly summed up in The Rochdale Herald...

Subject: RE: BS: Johnson shows his colours (again)
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 Aug 18 - 09:07 AM

Can that be corroborated? :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Johnson shows his colours (again)
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 12 Aug 18 - 08:58 AM

"Nah, not strange. He's boxed himself into a corner. Even his chums here are strangely silent. Embarrassed I should think. I advise Iains not to read his own posts back. He'd curl into a ball and pray that the ground would open up and swallow him."

Which would be rather funny seeing as he is some kind of geologist.

Subject: RE: BS: Johnson shows his colours (again)
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 Aug 18 - 08:46 AM

"...entirely fabricated story..."

Uncorroborated, yes. Entirely fabricated, you can't possibly know. You making things up, definitely.

Subject: RE: BS: Johnson shows his colours (again)
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 Aug 18 - 08:39 AM

Nah, not strange. He's boxed himself into a corner. Even his chums here are strangely silent. Embarrassed I should think. I advise Iains not to read his own posts back. He'd curl into a ball and pray that the ground would open up and swallow him.

Subject: RE: BS: Johnson shows his colours (again)
From: Raggytash
Date: 12 Aug 18 - 08:32 AM

Isn't it rather strange that Iains has posted to this thread nine times already today but will not comment about one of the Tory faithful criticising Johnson. (my post of 07.41)

Subject: RE: BS: Johnson shows his colours (again)
From: Iains
Date: 12 Aug 18 - 08:32 AM

AH Yes! and shaw made much of the entirely fabricated story of Cameron and the pig.

Subject: RE: BS: Johnson shows his colours (again)
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 Aug 18 - 08:06 AM

Or politicians as hippopotamuses...?

Subject: RE: BS: Johnson shows his colours (again)
From: Iains
Date: 12 Aug 18 - 07:52 AM

I cannot recall any outrage expressed when nuns are describes as penguins. You all need to put your false outrage back where it came from - in the gutter.

Subject: RE: BS: Johnson shows his colours (again)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Aug 18 - 07:48 AM

"Your continuous string of lies, gross exaggerations and insults does get rather wearing. "
Yet more thread-closing abuse Iains
I was suggesting that everybody walked away and stopped allowing you turn this into a hate site
I'm having a ball watching you humiliate yourself
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Johnson shows his colours (again)
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 Aug 18 - 07:45 AM

"Why does the Guardian print her stuff?"

The Guardian, as has been repeatedly pointed out to you, fearlessly embraces columnists from the whole of the political spectrum.

Subject: RE: BS: Johnson shows his colours (again)
From: Raggytash
Date: 12 Aug 18 - 07:41 AM

Today former aide to David Cameron, Lord Cooper, has described Johnson as "moral emptiness, casual racism and courting fascism"

There is black and white Iains, whether you choose to accept it is up to you but I does give a pretty good insight into the thinking of even some members of the Conservative Party.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/aug/12/boris-johnson-courting-fascism-says-peer-tory-crisis

Subject: RE: BS: Johnson shows his colours (again)
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 Aug 18 - 07:20 AM

Give up, Iains. You've put yourself in deep disgrace. Stop digging.

Subject: RE: BS: Johnson shows his colours (again)
From: Iains
Date: 12 Aug 18 - 07:00 AM

"Seems we're finished here - now mor oxygen for this bunch of Klansmen eh?"

another promise you will not keep - unfortunately. Your continuous string of lies, gross exaggerations and insults does get rather wearing. Anyone else would be deleted.

Subject: RE: BS: Johnson shows his colours (again)
From: Iains
Date: 12 Aug 18 - 06:40 AM

It is obvious anything that can provide a perceived political advantage to any political party will be milked for all it is worth. Was that not the function of alistair campbell for new labour?
The downside is that if it is played too much the opposition can probably find the spinners doing the exact same thing- As has been demonstrated here.

Subject: RE: BS: Johnson shows his colours (again)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Aug 18 - 06:32 AM

Seems we're finished here - now mor oxygen for this bunch of Klansmen eh?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Johnson shows his colours (again)
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 12 Aug 18 - 06:18 AM

Thanks for that gift proving my point, Iains. Couldn't have asked for more!

Subject: RE: BS: Johnson shows his colours (again)
From: Iains
Date: 12 Aug 18 - 06:11 AM

"It has nothing to do with the burka."
Quite right. It is all to do with the corbynista's distraction techniques taking the heat off Labour's very real problems.


https://www.telegraph.co.uk/opinion/2018/08/11/burka-row-gift-labour/

Corbyn is deeply flawed and will soon be thrown out from the leadership.

Subject: RE: BS: Johnson shows his colours (again)
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 12 Aug 18 - 05:58 AM

Well said Dave. Here's An interesting piece about the tactics of dis- and mis-information being used by the Right to influence the elements of society who are feeble-minded and susceptible to propaganda.

Subject: RE: BS: Johnson shows his colours (again)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Aug 18 - 05:58 AM

Toynbee writes as a feminist, her criticisms have targeted the Christian church and modern fashion
she at not time suggests, as you or your mates have, that the wearers of burkas are bomb toting security risks - it is that disgusting suggestion that makes you the goose-stepping racist that you are
I agree totally with Toynbee's analysis of how women are treated by religious groups and by society in general, but, as was shown by the Danish demonstration, banning anything will have the opposite effect
This is the buisness of Muslims to sort out - not hate-merchants like you and career-ladder climbers like Johnson

You moronic reverting to schoolyard name calling only underlines your instability
Stop turning this forum into another of your hate soapboxes - you want to organise a racist rally - go find a biergarten
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Johnson shows his colours (again)
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 12 Aug 18 - 05:33 AM

I don't know how many times I have said this already. It has nothing to do with the burka. It is Johnson grandstanding to gain support from the far right. It worked for Farage. It worked for Trump. Looking at his apologists on here it has obviously worked for Johnson as well. Hopefully more people can see through his ploy than are fooled by it but his type really believe that you can fool all the people all the time.

Subject: RE: BS: Johnson shows his colours (again)
From: Iains
Date: 12 Aug 18 - 05:29 AM

"There is no sneering at the Burka, as Johnson did,"

From Toynbee the queen of leftist journalists:
"The top-to-toe burka, with its sinister, airless little grille, is more than an instrument of persecution, it is a public tarring and feathering of female sexuality. It transforms any woman into an object of defilement too untouchably disgusting to be seen. It is a garment of lurid sexual suggestiveness: what rampant desire and desirability lurks and leers beneath its dark mysteries? In its objectifying of women, it turns them into cowering creatures demanding and expecting violence and victimisation. Forget cultural sensibilities."

Jim I assume comprehension was a subject you struggled with at school! Sneering is the least of the adjectives I would use to describe your favourite scribes scribblings. How on earth can you reconcile what you said with what she said?

Subject: RE: BS: Johnson shows his colours (again)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Aug 18 - 05:13 AM

Now we have Keith - no stranger to making illegal statements about "culturally implanted" criminals
About time this was nipped in the bud before it becomes a Muslim Watch' clone
Polly Toynbee writes as a feminist - her objection is the way religion - all religions, including Christianity treat women
She actually claims that the only way to give women full freedom is to have a totally secular state
There is no sneering at the Burka, as Johnson did, no suggestion that it covered up wife-beating - as one of his colleagues did - no suggestion it was a terrorist threat as this vicious pait have
Enough
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Johnson shows his colours (again)
From: Iains
Date: 12 Aug 18 - 05:10 AM

You Gov. Ban the burka.
Even Labour supports a ban 42%for 30% against. The squealers are in a minority- just like brexit!


https://yougov.co.uk/news/2016/08/31/majority-public-backs-burka-ban/

Subject: RE: BS: Johnson shows his colours (again)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 Aug 18 - 05:03 AM

Yasmin Alibhai Brown, who IS a leftie, in the Indie,

"Years ago, I warned that the simple headscarf (hijab) was but the first step to full fabric incarceration. I was mocked and disparaged then by Muslim adherents, as well as many on the left. To them, such challenges to cultural practices validate bigotry and threaten liberties. Their laudable concern makes criticism impossibly difficult. Now they are everywhere, ravens, in burka (long cloaks) and niqab (face veils), their little girls scarved and in cumbersome long coats (in training, I am told) for that big day when they too can go into prisons of black polyester. They will be smiling, one mother of four daughters said to me. Or they may be crying, I said, and nobody will see either.

Here is a list of my (16) main objections"

https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/commentators/yasmin-alibhai-brown/yasmin-alibbai-brown-sixteen-reasons-why-i-object-to-this-dangerous-cover-up-2261444.html

Subject: RE: BS: Johnson shows his colours (again)
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 12 Aug 18 - 04:49 AM

Andrew friggin Brigden?? He is Boris's attack dog, not to be taken seriously. And if people want to punish Johnson over brexit, they are right to do so. Johnson and Brigden deserve all the opprobrium they get.

Subject: RE: BS: Johnson shows his colours (again)
From: Iains
Date: 12 Aug 18 - 04:33 AM

"an open attack on Muslim women's dress - come - on - this verges on the illegal - it's the stuff of the Dark Internet."
I wonder what else you do on the dark internet? Just sayin like!

Subject: RE: BS: Johnson shows his colours (again)
From: Iains
Date: 12 Aug 18 - 04:24 AM

OH Dear. Wiki does not agree with you. Tell me shaw, is unfocused the new word of the moment? It does make a change from your quack diagnosis of me I suppose. Equally ridiculous though! The summary of Toynebee came from Editorial Intelligence. Maybe some of the later posters should try it, challenge though it may be.

"You don't really get this, do you, Iains? You're stuffed. You've had the piss taken out of you all day. It's sad that you can't see it. You just keep digging. You're a weirdo and capricious mood-swinger. You're rapidly becoming an irrelevance here. You can't disagree without insulting. That is very odd, as you have given this forum the impression that you're quite an old man, and old men should know better than to behave like a testosterone-ridden teenage internet newbie. I suggest a nice lie down, old chap."
Attack the poster, not the post! The usual attempted bullying by the same motley crowd. Why do you not restrict yourself to the arguments within the thread? Is the idea box empty?

Now the real reason for the Boris Bashing:

Fake outrage

Subject: RE: BS: Johnson shows his colours (again)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 Aug 18 - 04:07 AM

If Johnson's remarks make him a racist Islamophobe, Polly Toynbee is a much worse one.
Is that what you think? Why does the Guardian print her stuff?

Likewise Jasmin Alibhai-Brown who takes the same view.

Or, is this all bollocks and political opportunism, not racism at all?

Subject: RE: BS: Johnson shows his colours (again)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Aug 18 - 03:59 AM

This becomes pointless fellers
Once he behaves like a cornered rat and starts going for the throat you know he is going you have him where he is going to stay and just lash out with his racist vitriol
It seems to me we have two alternatives - we continue feeding him and allow him to continue to use this thread for he hate-platform, giving him "the oxygen of publicity" or we walk away and let him drown in his swill
He's going to close this thread anyway - why give him the satisfaction of blaming someone else for doing so
He has now "Out-Johnsoned Johnson" this may be what our former Foreign Secretary thinks but wouldn't dare to say publicly - an open attack on Muslim women's dress - come - on - this verges on the illegal - it's the stuff of the Dark Internet.
I want no part of this shit - even his mates seem to have run for the hills

Subject: RE: BS: Johnson shows his colours (again)
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 12 Aug 18 - 03:11 AM

Polly Toynbee is not a leftie, nor really a journalist (she writes opinion pieces, she doesn't research), and certainly not the queen of anything.

Subject: RE: BS: Johnson shows his colours (again)
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Aug 18 - 07:31 PM

Totally unfocused as ever. And Polly Toynbee, as lightweight as they come, was a member of the SDP, the opportunist right-wing shitbags who played a major part in keeping Thatcher in power in the eighties. She even stood for election hoping and failing to become an SDP MP. Perhaps you'd forgotten that and have failed to realise that real lefties regard her as as a charlatan and have no truck with people like her. Just thought I'd mention it. As with all your arguments, there's absolutely no mileage in that one.

Subject: RE: BS: Johnson shows his colours (again)
From: Iains
Date: 11 Aug 18 - 06:20 PM

Running a bit short of counter arguments are we shaw? So off down the usual road of merely being insulting, along with your tame acolytes.

Anyway another little gem from the gruniard. 2001

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2001/sep/28/religion.afghanistan

Toynbee has been described as "the queen of leftist journalists", and in 2008 topped a poll of 100 "opinion makers", carried out by Editorial Intelligence. She was also named the most influential columnist in the UK(2008)

Below is her take on the burka

"The top-to-toe burka, with its sinister, airless little grille, is more than an instrument of persecution, it is a public tarring and feathering of female sexuality. It transforms any woman into an object of defilement too untouchably disgusting to be seen. It is a garment of lurid sexual suggestiveness: what rampant desire and desirability lurks and leers beneath its dark mysteries? In its objectifying of women, it turns them into cowering creatures demanding and expecting violence and victimisation. Forget cultural sensibilities."

I must say you lefties do not mince words when disparaging the burka.
It makes the blond buffoon seem quite innocuous in comparison!

and let us not forget the BBC. Remember this little gem?

Stephen Fry made the same joke as Boris on Have I Got News For You, before Ian Hislop and Paul Merton joined in:

    Stephen Fry: “I just posted something in that.”

    Ian Hislop: “We must stop meeting like this, Camilla.”

    Paul Merton: “Prince Charles is surprised when a pint of Guinness looks at him in a funny way.”

Subject: RE: BS: Johnson shows his colours (again)
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Aug 18 - 05:06 PM

You don't really get this, do you, Iains? You're stuffed. You've had the piss taken out of you all day. It's sad that you can't see it. You just keep digging. You're a weirdo and capricious mood-swinger. You're rapidly becoming an irrelevance here. You can't disagree without insulting. That is very odd, as you have given this forum the impression that you're quite an old man, and old men should know better than to behave like a testosterone-ridden teenage internet newbie. I suggest a nice lie down, old chap.

Subject: RE: BS: Johnson shows his colours (again)
From: Iains
Date: 11 Aug 18 - 04:47 PM

PFR if their hankies were doused in novichock then to believe the government fairy tales, we would have to get rid of the hankies, sticks, bells and likely the morris dancers as well. Then where would we be?

Jim if you cannot tell the difference between a mask and headscarf, and base your argument on that confusion, there is not a whole lot of point in wasting time and patience in order to discuss anything we you. You make out that you have the answer to everything, but your posts suggest you have an understanding of nothing.
quelle surprise!

"If he just wants to take the piss out of folk tradition it is little wonder he gets so many posts deleted"

another that has a staple diet of lemons!

Subject: RE: BS: Johnson shows his colours (again)
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 11 Aug 18 - 04:00 PM

Mind.. i'd be apprehensive of a morris side queuing and crowding around me at a cash point machine...
with their bloody gurt big lethal sticks, and those hankies could be doused in chloroform or even novichok...

Who'd be on the lookout for Russian spies or IS terrorists disguised in plain sight as quintessentially British morris dancers...

I wouldn't blame security officers if they were fooled and let them too close to a sensitive target...

Subject: RE: BS: Johnson shows his colours (again)
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 11 Aug 18 - 03:33 PM

I wonder if they are really morris dancers, it could explain a lot?

So, on a forum dedicated to folk he takes to insulting people by referring to them as folk dancers. Idiotic.

My knees will not put up with Morris dancing too much nowadays but I still play for a Morris side and am proud to say I am still involved with Morris dance.

If he just wants to take the piss out of folk tradition it is little wonder he gets so many posts deleted. Heading the way of his role models Teribus and Akenaton I expect.

Subject: RE: BS: Johnson shows his colours (again)
From: Raggytash
Date: 11 Aug 18 - 03:17 PM

I suppose some progress has been made by this discussion.

Iains referred to Diane Abbott as "abbacus" and not as the usual offensive tag he ascribes to her.

The Abacus was, and still is, a very sophisticated innovation.

Subject: RE: BS: Johnson shows his colours (again)
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 11 Aug 18 - 03:01 PM

My mrs is Welsh Chapel... not muslim...

She knows far more about multi cultural women's wear than I ever will...

she just had a look at that guide "What's the difference between a hijab, niqab and burka?"

with a view to which garments on the list she'd enjoy wearing in public,
though being aware that she could be accused of cultural approptiation if she did...

My wife is obviously not a terrorist - ermmm.. well I'm fairly certain...
unless she belongs to a very dozing Welsh Nationalist sleeper cell
planning a bombing campaign disguised in burkas...???

Subject: RE: BS: Johnson shows his colours (again)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Aug 18 - 02:47 PM

Back to the old insulting Iains
You have neither answer nor shame
You have been given plenty to respond to - all you offer in return is a party political broadcast on behalf of the Tommy Robinson Party
Of course we know what a Burka is
It looks like a combination of a letter bob and a bank robbers outfit - Boris Johnso told us that
It's used to cover up domestic abuse
One of his colleagues told us that
It's probably used to carry bombs for terrorist attacks
You told us that
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Johnson shows his colours (again)
From: Iains
Date: 11 Aug 18 - 02:26 PM

PFR even by using cartoons there are some diehards posting here that obviously have no idea what a burka is, or even what the argument is about. They just like to jump up and down shouting racist and bigot, the same two word descriptor they just have to introduce into every thread when they can no longer follow the discussion.
I suppose it makes something of a change from introducing weeds. Of course there is one here that attacks the strawman constantly, a sign of delusion,lying, or merely attention seeking.
They seem to think inhabiting their socialist bubble insulates them from the threat of terrorism and thus trivialize it every opportunity. But then the way they jump to the defense of the abbacus and corbyn does rather indicate how shallow their appreciation of the real issues is.
Luckily they merely rabbit on a specialized website.It would be rather frightening if their off the wall burbling had any influence on those that have control of our security. Luckily this is obviously not the case. Their abysmal scholarship is firmly grounded in disparagement and denial, rather than research and reasoned argument. But then again what is new about that? It is always the same motley crew. I wonder if they are really morris dancers, it could explain a lot?

Subject: RE: BS: Johnson shows his colours (again)
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 11 Aug 18 - 01:16 PM

.and the news just in... Boris and The Burka...

Subject: RE: BS: Johnson shows his colours (again)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Aug 18 - 01:08 PM

Nice to see you at the rally though Keith
Your friend needs moral support here
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Johnson shows his colours (again)
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Aug 18 - 01:07 PM

He did not carry out an attack using a burqa. The point being made by Iains and others suffering from paranoia is that burqas make them feel uncomfortable or unsafe (not honest, just an excuse for hiding their intolerance, but hey ho). This fellow was running away. People running away from me never make me feel unsafe. Funny, that. A bloke on foot was wearing different clothes in order to run away undetected. Real bank robbers (not in burqas) change cars to run away. Same difference.

Subject: RE: BS: Johnson shows his colours (again)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Aug 18 - 01:06 PM

"One of the (male) 21/7 bombers escaped London dressed in a burka."
That's six out of one thousand six hundred and five billion Muslims
Where's me tin 'at ?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Johnson shows his colours (again)
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 11 Aug 18 - 01:04 PM

"One of the (male) 21/7 bombers escaped London dressed in a burka."


..and how many terrorists and criminals escaped wearing jeans and shirts, or suits and ties etc...

or parkas, or duffel coats, or scarfs and balaclavas...

or big brimmed trilbies and fedoras...?????

or even in a glittery tutu, or stark bollock naked hid in the back seat or boot of a car
crossing the channel...!!!????

Subject: RE: BS: Johnson shows his colours (again)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 11 Aug 18 - 12:54 PM

Jim,
How many Burka wearing women (or men) have been found to have been involved in terrorism

One of the (male) 21/7 bombers escaped London dressed in a burka.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/6378863.stm

Subject: RE: BS: Johnson shows his colours (again)
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 11 Aug 18 - 12:42 PM

Now seems as good a time as any for a trainspotter's guide to

What's the difference between a hijab, niqab and burka?

My own off the cuff silly jokes from a day or 2 ago
bothered me that they may have been based on misconceptions
stemming from my own western 'liberal' lazy ignorance...
most probably founded in childhood viewings of Carry On movies set in the British Empire...???


Also there is currently an interesting debate on repeat on BBC News channel, and streaming on iplayer...

Dateline London

Subject: RE: BS: Johnson shows his colours (again)
From: DMcG
Date: 11 Aug 18 - 12:18 PM

"seen any catholics wearing a burka"

My daughter in law who is a Hindu from Mauritius went along to a Catholic Midnight Mass when she first came here. Her first question was "why are they all dressed as Muslims?"

Subject: RE: BS: Johnson shows his colours (again)
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Aug 18 - 11:22 AM

Or:

Q. Would it be acceptable for Steve Shaw to roam around Bude, beard shaved off, wearing dark glasses, with a blond wig under a baseball cap worn the wrong way round, toting a 23 kg duffel bag?

(Bugger - the shorts and Jesus boots would give me away anyway...)

Subject: RE: BS: Johnson shows his colours (again)
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 11 Aug 18 - 11:18 AM

Subject: RE: BS: Johnson shows his colours (again)
From: Senoufou - PM
Date: 08 Aug 18 - 08:33 AM
...
It's quite true that there is nothing in the Koran (which I've read in translation from cover to cover) regarding covering the face. It talks merely about modesty.

Subject: RE: BS: Johnson shows his colours (again)
From: Iains - PM
Date: 11 Aug 18 - 08:43 AM

"I thought it had already been established that the Koran only says that men and women should dress modestly" Yes I did and it was deleted.

It was Eliza's post I referred to. I have long since stopped taking any notice of your nonsense. Not only insecure but also delusional.

Subject: RE: BS: Johnson shows his colours (again)
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 11 Aug 18 - 11:12 AM

That 60% poll result - Best way to determine how many of them were male Sun readers
would've been to have asked another question at the same time....

"or encourage the wearing in public of an alternative more acceptable female muslim attire
with the eye slit enlarged and lowered to chest level...???"

Subject: RE: BS: Johnson shows his colours (again)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Aug 18 - 11:01 AM

"I would like some even handed moderation to delete this insulting post."
The proof of the pudding Iains
Describing women who wear burkas as "potential killers" is dangerously just that
You continue to do so by suggesting that they might carry them under their clothes
I occasionally carry a duffle bag - does that make me a "potential killer?
Racial, cultural and gender violence has been a problem throughout my life in cities
he incitement to that violence is still with us AND GROWING

Subject: RE: BS: Johnson shows his colours (again)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Aug 18 - 11:01 AM

"I would like some even handed moderation to delete this insulting post."
The proof of the pudding Iains
Describing women who wear burkas as "potential killers" is dangerously just that
You continue to do so by suggesting that they might carry them under their clothes
I occasionally carry a duffle bag - does that make me a "potential killer?
Racial, cultural and gender violence has been a problem throughout my life in cities
he incitement to that violence is still with us AND GROWING

Subject: RE: BS: Johnson shows his colours (again)
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Aug 18 - 10:34 AM

Relax. You'll bust a blood vessel you know.

Subject: RE: BS: Johnson shows his colours (again)
From: Iains
Date: 11 Aug 18 - 10:27 AM

"You are a racist bigot - it is you and your kind who have bred violence and hatred"

I would like some even handed moderation to delete this insulting post.

Subject: RE: BS: Johnson shows his colours (again)
From: Iains
Date: 11 Aug 18 - 10:07 AM

"Hardly a Truman-style atom bomb, eh, and big and heavy"
Why would it need to be?


If you were within 150m of the blast of the tactical weapon mentioned above, you would be very dead regardless.
10,000 REM would likely even zap some of the cockroaches as well.
Have you never noticed Miniaturization, the trend to manufacture ever smaller mechanical, optical and electronic products and devices?
Rumours of suitcase bombs may be just that or may be true. We are not privy to such things.
Prudent planning incorporates the worst case scenario. A jolly good job you ain't in charge is it not?

Subject: RE: BS: Johnson shows his colours (again)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Aug 18 - 09:53 AM

"seen any catholics wearing a burka"
My mother couldn't go to church without covering her head and when she did she was forced to sit on one side of the church with the other women
She couldn't eat meat on Friday and if she wanted to marry someone of another religion in her own church she was forced to agree that any children would be brought up in her faith
All this was abandoned voluntarily without changed laws or threats of prosecution of accusation of being potential terrorists
To have attempted to do any of this would have bred resistance and resentment

You are a racist bigot - it is you and your kind who have bred violence and hatred
The bigots and racists are 'The Enemy within' not those who wish to practice their religion peacefully
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Johnson shows his colours (again)
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Aug 18 - 09:29 AM

Hardly a Truman-style atom bomb, eh, and big and heavy enough to make the woman look like she was eight months' pregnant with sextuplets.

Subject: RE: BS: Johnson shows his colours (again)
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Aug 18 - 09:25 AM

Rees-Mogg is attempting to elevate the enquiry to the status of a "trial" so that he can then claim that Boris "can't get a fair trial" because of prejudicial statements made in advance of the enquiry by Theresa May and others. This ploy isn't original. It was raised earlier in the week by a Johnson supporter whose name I can't remember (I was fuming in the southbound M6 20-mile roadworks at the time).

Just been listening to Any Answers on Radio 4. The phone-ins in this topic are absolutely dismal, some akin to hate speech. I'm almost giving up any hope for humanity.

Subject: RE: BS: Johnson shows his colours (again)
From: Iains
Date: 11 Aug 18 - 09:23 AM

" Is there room for one under that dress"
The warhead of the U.S. Davy Crockett tactical nuclear recoilless rifle projectile weighed a mere 23 kg. That was back in the days of the cold war.
What do you think?

Subject: RE: BS: Johnson shows his colours (again)
From: DMcG
Date: 11 Aug 18 - 09:00 AM

"A Conservative Party investigation into Boris Johnson is a "show trial" and is being used to stop him becoming leader, Jacob Rees-Mogg has claimed" (BBC)

Well, yes, I suppose. If someone is a possible leader it is sensible to be asking the question "Is this contender a fit and proper person to lead the country?" That is exactly what we should be doing, Jacob. And shutting your eyes to possible problems is exactly what we should not be doing.

Subject: RE: BS: Johnson shows his colours (again)
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Aug 18 - 08:55 AM

"It only took 2 atomic bombs to kill 90,000–146,000 people in Hiroshima and 39,000–80,000 people in Nagasaki."

I'm not aware of any burqa-wearing woman, either here or in Pakistan, or even a burqa-wearing man or a non-binary personage, having been nabbed in possession of an atomic bomb. Is there room for one under that dress? Gosh, you really do feel threatened, don't you?

Subject: RE: BS: Johnson shows his colours (again)
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Aug 18 - 08:46 AM

I suppose because the casual and superficial equating that goes on is that it's Muslim women who are seen wearing them. There's a tendency to suppose that people wearing garb associated with a religion such as cassocks, dog collars, kippahs, turbans, etc, are somehow more devoutly attached to their religion. That would work in many people's minds with burqas=Islam.

Subject: RE: BS: Johnson shows his colours (again)
From: Iains
Date: 11 Aug 18 - 08:43 AM

"I thought it had already been established that the Koran only says that men and women should dress modestly" Yes I did and it was deleted.


"therefore the burka is cultural rather than religious"

seen any catholics wearing a burka? Your argument is of your usual standard. As they say "tell it to the marines"

"Yet you describe women wearing burkas as "potential killers"
No! more of your made up shit jimmy.

"How many Burka wearing women (or men) have been found to have been involved in terrorism - five in Pakistan wasn't it?"
A crying shame you cannot read!
It only took 2 atomic bombs to kill 90,000–146,000 people in Hiroshima and 39,000–80,000 people in Nagasaki.


Do you really think the number is critical- how sad!

Subject: RE: BS: Johnson shows his colours (again)
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 11 Aug 18 - 08:32 AM

I thought it had already been established that the Koran only says that men and women should dress modestly and therefore the burka is cultural rather than religious. Why then the sudden spate of equating it with Islam?

Subject: RE: BS: Johnson shows his colours (again)
From: Iains
Date: 11 Aug 18 - 08:30 AM

I have no doubt God feels the same about the burka

Subject: RE: BS: Johnson shows his colours (again)
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Aug 18 - 08:25 AM

I should like to know what men in frocks fondling little boys or idiots attacking women for their dress has to do with religion. I doubt whether God thinks so.

Subject: RE: BS: Johnson shows his colours (again)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Aug 18 - 08:21 AM

THere has been a demonstration in Denmark over the ban on the burka
It is calculated that only 150 women in the country follow the tradition, but now Muslim women are pledging themselves to take up the tradition in protest
Non-Muslim onlookers interviewed condemned the ban outright
The fascist politician who instigated the ban (compared to Johnson in the interview) said that he doesn't "want the streets Copenhagen full of burka- wearing women as are the streets of England"
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Johnson shows his colours (again)
From: Thompson
Date: 11 Aug 18 - 08:12 AM

Talking of religion, the BBC World Service's Thought for the Day this morning was about Johnson's 'joke'. Very interesting little piece.

Subject: RE: BS: Johnson shows his colours (again)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Aug 18 - 08:07 AM

Jake-the-Snake Mogg comes out in support of Johnson's racism
Great, great, great - two worms with one stone!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Johnson shows his colours (again)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Aug 18 - 07:53 AM

"the burka and beating the drum for Islam (that has Jihadis)"
Personally I have no time for either but racist shits who use them to denigrate entire communities sicken me
"you clearly despise the catholic church "
Wrog again - i despise the uses the Catholic (or an) church has been put to to commit appalling crimes and and to cover up the activities of criminals
THe church is now being forced to confine itself to spiritual matters and to be answerable to its behaviour - I welcome that
"because a minority of priests are sexual predators"
How many Burka wearing women (or men) have been found to have been involved in terrorism - five in Pakistan wasn't it?
How much of a minority would you calculate that to be?
Yet you describe women wearing burkas as "potential killers"
Innumerate as well as bigoted, I would say, wouldn't you
Come back when you can justify your racist claims (on second thoughts - don't because you can't)
Considering that fact that Johnson's party has now been forced to carry out an enquiry into his behaviour - how do you think people with your twisted, hate-filled views would be dealt with?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Johnson shows his colours (again)
From: Iains
Date: 11 Aug 18 - 07:51 AM

Raggy. Because religion has caused more deaths than any other cause and secondly it is the most widespread form of bigotry in Europe.

To make my own position clear I have no problem with Islam, or any other religion, unlike some other recent posters.

Subject: RE: BS: Johnson shows his colours (again)
From: Raggytash
Date: 11 Aug 18 - 07:39 AM

Iains, I am puzzled by part of your last post. Why is a religious bigot far worse than any other bigot.

Subject: RE: BS: Johnson shows his colours (again)
From: Iains
Date: 11 Aug 18 - 07:30 AM

Jim you seem to be full of the joys of spring concerning the burka and beating the drum for Islam (that has Jihadis)
and yet you clearly despise the catholic church and use every opportunity to attack it (because a minority of priests are sexual predators)

Not very even handed is it?
Why would that be.

Are not all religions treated equally, insofar as they do not impact the lives of others? Obviously not, in your world view.

This makes it very difficult to pay any attention to any post of yours, because not only are you bigoted(to use your favourite insult), but far worse you are clearly a religious bigot.

Subject: RE: BS: Johnson shows his colours (again)
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Aug 18 - 07:12 AM

"Protective?" Heheh...

Subject: RE: BS: Johnson shows his colours (again)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Aug 18 - 07:12 AM

"DO I detect the usual whiff of hypocrisy?"
Only if you smell your own arse and those of your compatriots
Why protect any religious symbol - because it's important to somebody, that's why ?
Fashion statement
MEN
WOMEN
YOUR GUESS IS AS GOOD AS MINE

This is becoming real hard-core stuff racist contempt now - even beyond Johnson's mindlessness
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Johnson shows his colours (again)
From: Iains
Date: 11 Aug 18 - 07:12 AM

"Your rabid Islamophobia puts Corbyn's criticisms of Israel in the shade"

Jim if you cannot tell the difference between an item of clothing and a religion it merely demonstrates your abject stupidity.
I suggest you try therapy and give up the chewing of lemons.

Subject: RE: BS: Johnson shows his colours (again)
From: Iains
Date: 11 Aug 18 - 06:52 AM

Steve Shaw - PM
Date: 21 Mar 13 - 09:17 PM

As for laying down ultimatums to the Godhead, well why not? He's not that bloody perfect himself, is he? I mean, just look at all the death, misery, disease, famine, drought and manifold other destructions he so eagerly visits on us all, just because a dame bit into his precious bloody apple. Vindictive sod! And no bloody room for a woman in the triumvirate, is there! (Mind you, perhaps he jibs at the thought of a woman sitting on his right hand.

So why protective of the burka Shaw, you demonstrate your contempt for religion above, and the burka can hardly be describes as a fashion statement?

DO I detect the usual whiff of hypocrisy?

Subject: RE: BS: Johnson shows his colours (again)
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Aug 18 - 06:36 AM

So you dredged up a case from Pakistan. Wow. How relevant. Now tell us about any in our neck of the woods, you know, the place where you say you personally feel so threatened. And my question about the poll has nothing to do with brexit. You simply can't address the points being put to you here so you attempt irrelevant diversions (and have the cheek to chastise me for weeds and recipes). You're having your little moody this morning, aren't you? Can't respond so you lash out with your predictably boorish insults. What do you really think the sixty percent would say if asked WHY they'd ban the veil? Do you think that most of the reasons you'd hear would be palatable even to you? Incidentally, making rules for cultures other than your own about what they should wear in public places, just to make YOU feel more comfortable, is classic racism. I heard a chap complaining that the fellow in the Trooping Of The Colour who wore a turban instead of a busby should either conform to British tradition or go back to where he came from (he actually came from West Bromwich, born and bred, when I looked it up). Tell me: do you think that Jews in Israel should be banned from wearing the kippah in public places? After all, they may be making some of the non-Jewish citizens of Israel feel uncomfortable... Personally I'd like to see grown men banned from wearing baseball caps backwards. Well not really.

Subject: RE: BS: Johnson shows his colours (again)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Aug 18 - 06:32 AM

"But here is a starter for 10"
Five men in Pakistan from a world population of how many?
Now there's a real threat
Would you claim the many hundreds of priests who have been found to have raped children under their care grounds for claiming religion a threat to our way of life?
You give no evidence because none exists
"Your argument is asinine."
Your arguments and nor becoming abusive
"proscribed terrorist organisations"
I don't see a single mention of "burka" on your link
"potential killers."
This is outright bigoted racism now
Burka wearing women "potential killers - this is sick, sick, sick
About time this was stopped as a potential racist soapbox, I think
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Johnson shows his colours (again)
From: Iains
Date: 11 Aug 18 - 06:27 AM

"Your rabid Islamophobia puts Corbyn's criticisms of Israel in the shade"
Jim if anyone else hurled insults around the way you do they would be banned. Who is endlessly protecting you and why?





A sufficiency to make my point.




https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/terrorism-in-the-uk/10438195/The-runaway-terrorist-his-burka-disguise-and-a-compensation

https://www.express.co.uk/news/world/709459/Burka-clad-women-shot-dead-by-police-to-thwart-suspected-terror-attack
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/jul/11/chad-suicide-bomber-ndjamena-market

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4579806/Several-wounded-attacks-Iran-parliament-tomb-reports.html

Subject: RE: BS: Johnson shows his colours (again)
From: Iains
Date: 11 Aug 18 - 05:39 AM

" I'd suggest that any pollster asking people whether the veil should be banned should be required to ask those who say yes a supplementary question"
You can suggest til you are blue in the face dear boy, I can assure you no one will listen. Brexit polls wanted an answer to one question. Do you think it is a multiple choice? Your argument is asinine.

"Give us a list from, say, the last twenty years, of all the incidents involving a veiled Muslim woman either threatening or attacking someone in a public place using the veil as cover."
Make your own list.As kevin would say"I am not your slave!"
But here is a starter for 10

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/5048629/gunmen-in-burkas-massacre-nine-and-wound-35-in-pakistan/

and of course the list below has a distinctly Arabic flavour

proscribed terrorist organisations

I always credited you with a little more sense than to advocate a dress that enables freedom of movement of potential killers.
Better hope you lefty hubble bubble cocoon of false security never has an encounter with reality. It could be fatal.

Subject: RE: BS: Johnson shows his colours (again)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Aug 18 - 05:38 AM

""Polls on the subject of wearing the burka suggest 60% of voters support it's ban.""
Which would be about in line with the surveyspolls that shows that nearly that percentage of British people hold and have expressed racist views
Now even Sen is at is sadly - at one time Johnson was not intending to insult Muslim people, now he is right in what he said about "letterboxes in bank-raiding gear"
Sad - sad - sad
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Johnson shows his colours (again)
From: Senoufou
Date: 11 Aug 18 - 05:24 AM

My husband says if I get any more wrinkles, and lose the last few teeth I possess, he'll get me a burka to wear when we go out. Cheeky thing.

Subject: RE: BS: Johnson shows his colours (again)
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Aug 18 - 05:16 AM

"There is also the element of trust. I feel uncomfortable being in the vicinity of masked people, they pose a potential threat that I have no way of quantifying. If people want to be in public places, I want to see their faces."

Give us a list from, say, the last twenty years, of all the incidents involving a veiled Muslim woman either threatening or attacking someone in a public place using the veil as cover. My advice to you would be to move to a place without Muslim women, then you wouldn't feel so threatened. Or just stay out of those public places in which those women who worry you so much are simply going about their business in a thoroughly law-abiding way. To muddy a well-known phrase or saying, you're neurotic and they're not out to get you.

"Polls on the subject of wearing the burka suggest 60% of voters support it's ban."

Well apart from the fact that this statement ("Polls suggest...") is classic weasel words (look it up), I'd suggest that any pollster asking people whether the veil should be banned should be required to ask those who say yes a supplementary question: "Why?" I think you'd find the responses embarrassing. Or maybe you wouldn't want to know.

Subject: RE: BS: Johnson shows his colours (again)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Aug 18 - 04:59 AM

Keep it up Iains
Your rabid Islamophobia puts Corbyn's criticisms of Israel in the shade
Your soapbox puts your politics in the shade
Let's see if your couple of friends follow your lead - if they do you'll have the makings of a rally - then you can hire Tommy Robinson as a speaker
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Johnson shows his colours (again)
From: Iains
Date: 11 Aug 18 - 04:47 AM

Senoufou an excellent find and provides a neat summary of the problem.



"If these communities were a risk it would have shown in the behaviour of those living there"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terrorism_in_the_United_Kingdom#/media/File:Terrorist_incidents_map_of_the_United_Kingdom_1970-201

Subject: RE: BS: Johnson shows his colours (again)
From: Senoufou
Date: 11 Aug 18 - 04:33 AM

There was a really funny cartoon in yesterday's Daily Mail.

A couple were sat on sun-loungers on the beach, reading the paper. One said, "It says here Boris Johnson is on holiday. I wonder where he is?"
Not far away lay a lone holidaymaker in a burka, with a mop of blonde floppy hair poking out of the veil!

Subject: RE: BS: Johnson shows his colours (again)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Aug 18 - 04:24 AM

THere you go proing my point Ians
This has never been about Johnson never meaning to insult Muslims - it has always been about Muslims being 'The Enemy Within'
The leading Muslim who claimed that the Tories had a major Islamophobic problem had it about right

The Muslim communities in Britain are law abiding, industrious and willing to integrate (compare them to holidaymaking Brits ho have made some of the most beautiful spots on this planet drunken, violent hell-holes)

If these communities were a risk it would have shown in the behaviour of those living there
You people are pedling racism and bigotry without evidence - it is you who are the threat to society

As I said, this is where this agrument should have been from day one
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Johnson shows his colours (again)
From: Iains
Date: 11 Aug 18 - 04:08 AM

Isn't it amazing how this argument has done a screeching u-turn from "Johnson didn't mean to insult Muslims and really supports their wearing their traditional dress" - to " "Well really, these people are quite likely to be carrying bombs and weapons so they should be banned"

Polls on the subject of wearing the burka suggest 60% of voters support it's ban.
It is not traditional Islamic dress, it is the dress of a small(though increasing)minority.
To argue such people may be carrying guns or weapons is facile, and totally avoids the true issue.

Identification cannot be carried out while wearing a mask and similarly communications is restricted when facial expression cannot be read.
(The argument that caused controversy with jack straw and essentially the argument advanced by the )

There is also the element of trust. I feel uncomfortable being in the vicinity of masked people, they pose a potential threat that I have no way of quantifying. If people want to be in public places, I want to see their faces.

I suppose the arguments are a very good way of deflecting argument away from labour's civil war.

Subject: RE: BS: Johnson shows his colours (again)
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 11 Aug 18 - 03:27 AM

Jack Straw has had a problem with Muslims since his NUS days when he couldn't achieve the popularity that Tariq Ali did.

Subject: RE: BS: Johnson shows his colours (again)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Aug 18 - 03:23 AM

Isn't it amazing how this argument has done a screeching u-turn from "Johnson didn't mean to insult Muslims and really supports their wearing their traditional dress" - to " "Well really, these people are quite likely to be carrying bombs and weapons so they should be banned"
People like Johnson certainly open the door for the closet racist bigots - certainly on this forum anyway
Why didn't you Tories say what you belived in the fist place - it really would have saved so much time?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Johnson shows his colours (again)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 11 Aug 18 - 03:10 AM

Jim,
Why are you people defending racist when you have busted a gut claiming that criticism of an extremist state is "antisemitic" ?

No-one here has ever claimed any such thing. Why pretend?

Steve, I have never lied about Wheatcroft or anything else. I quoted him in full before giving an abbreviated quote. It was too long to keep repeating in full. No deception.
If you have missed the "dyke boots" story just google it. Everyone else knows what it is about. It was only a few weeks ago.

Subject: RE: BS: Johnson shows his colours (again)
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 Aug 18 - 06:55 PM

You're the best popper of balloons on this forum by a country mile, pfr. Kudos! :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Johnson shows his colours (again)
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 10 Aug 18 - 06:44 PM

I guess most average folks have better things to do than devote their time to trawling the internet
for any slightest tidbit of historical social media quotes and news reports
that can be manipulated for biased political purposes...

Though it's obviously easier if well financed right wing research groups are already doing the donkey work,
and serving up their findings in scripted easy to use packages...???

Subject: RE: BS: Johnson shows his colours (again)
From: Iains
Date: 10 Aug 18 - 05:57 PM

and our little labour matey Jack Straw:


http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/politics/5413470.stm

Hark the Herald angels sing, but no squawking from the usual culprits!

Subject: RE: BS: Johnson shows his colours (again)
From: Iains
Date: 10 Aug 18 - 05:49 PM

OOPS1 Look what your faithful friend guido has found


https://order-order.com/2018/08/08/thornberry-i-wouldnt-let-a-woman-in-a-burka-look-after-my-child/

Where was the outrage then?

Subject: RE: BS: Johnson shows his colours (again)
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 Aug 18 - 05:17 PM

No hoops, Keith. I'm simply asking you to support your rather enigmatic and vague reference. Either you can or you can't. Of course, years ago, when I asked you to corroborate your Wheatcroft lie, you got into a right old quagmire over it. Perhaps that's why you're being a bit reticent when it comes to supporting your current claim when asked to. Let's see how you get on.

Subject: RE: BS: Johnson shows his colours (again)
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 10 Aug 18 - 04:53 PM

..all religious garb can look daft.. even faiths/cults that just wear jeans and Tee shirts...

..and we can also have a good giggle at pagans who worship in their birthday suits...


No religion should be excepted from good natured spoofing...


seems fair to me...

But I really doubt there's anything good natured about Boris's intentions...

Subject: RE: BS: Johnson shows his colours (again)
From: bobad
Date: 10 Aug 18 - 04:06 PM

"Jews look like they’ve got a pancake on their head."

Crêpe, surely.

Subject: RE: BS: Johnson shows his colours (again)
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 10 Aug 18 - 02:59 PM

Some tories are shameless in desperately courting back voters who fled to ukip and even further rightwards...

Subject: RE: BS: Johnson shows his colours (again)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Aug 18 - 02:43 PM

WHAT JOHNSON'S TORY COLLEGUES THINK
It seems only Mudcat's reddest of rednecks support him
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Johnson shows his colours (again)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Aug 18 - 02:40 PM

"https://www.pinterest.co.uk/purl2525/big-dyke-boots/">DYKE BOOTS
THis wat-aboutism is avoiding the issue that an ex Foreign Secretary and aspiring Prime Minister is a raving racist with a track record
Why are you people defending racist when you have busted a gut claiming that criticism of an extremist state is "antisemitic" ?

"That assumes that only Muslim women wear burqas"
So you are claiming that Johnson was implying that all wearers of burkas are terrorist suspects
Better and batter
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Johnson shows his colours (again)
From: Kenny B (inactive)
Date: 10 Aug 18 - 02:36 PM

I wonder if this is appropriate A Dykers Compliments tae Her Neebors

Subject: RE: BS: Johnson shows his colours (again)
From: Iains
Date: 10 Aug 18 - 02:25 PM

More hoops!

Subject: RE: BS: Johnson shows his colours (again)
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 10 Aug 18 - 02:22 PM

Have you read the Guardian article, Nigel? Can you give us the quote in context? If it was used in the same way as Johnson used it then I would certainly complain about that as well. However, whoever used the phrase, it is still wrong. You are just trying to misdirect the discussion because you know you are wrong.

Subject: RE: BS: Johnson shows his colours (again)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 Aug 18 - 02:03 PM

Hoops!

Subject: RE: BS: Johnson shows his colours (again)
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 Aug 18 - 01:58 PM

"...describe the shoes of a lesbian subordinate as, "dyke boots" ?"

Context, please.

Subject: RE: BS: Johnson shows his colours (again)
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 Aug 18 - 01:56 PM

Widen contexts for all you're worth, Al, but the obstinate fact is that he very carefully constructed a piece of writing that was intended to appeal to base instincts in order to increase his appeal. In so doing he engendered a hardening of racist attitudes against Muslim women. And he did it calculatedly.

Subject: RE: BS: Johnson shows his colours (again)
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 10 Aug 18 - 01:55 PM

"Boris is just a backbencher."

spell checkers.. what a laugh.. clearly that was intended as "bacteria"...???

Subject: RE: BS: Johnson shows his colours (again)
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 10 Aug 18 - 01:48 PM

After all this fuss, us true blue Brits should also consider discouraging
wearing of Bee Keeping and Fencing head gear...

Never know who might be hiding inside them and plotting acts of terror...

Amazon have recently been flogging off very cheap complete Bee Keeper's outfits..
Now any Tom, Dick, or Abdul can afford to wear them freely in the streets of our vulnerable Cities...

Subject: RE: BS: Johnson shows his colours (again)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 Aug 18 - 01:45 PM

Was it OK for Labour's Shadow Minister for Women and Equalities to describe the shoes of a lesbian subordinate as, "dyke boots" ?

Boris is just a backbencher.

Subject: RE: BS: Johnson shows his colours (again)
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 10 Aug 18 - 12:37 PM

These are the same countries Steve that gave Khomeini refuge, when his own countrymen would have strung him up on sight.

Thus enabling him in time, to set up an iniquitous murderous regime where exchanges of opinion like this are forbidden.

Some issues do not really yield to analysis when terms like 'racist' are being slung around. I have found.

Blessed are the simplistic, for them every issue will be remorselessly simplified.

Subject: RE: BS: Johnson shows his colours (again)
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 10 Aug 18 - 12:33 PM

After the Guardian gave a harsh editorial on Tuesday about the 'Letter-box' expression, The Spectator points out that The Guardian used the same expression back in 2013.

Oh dear!

Subject: RE: BS: Johnson shows his colours (again)
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 10 Aug 18 - 12:30 PM

Another one to ignore, Steve.

Subject: RE: BS: Johnson shows his colours (again)
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 Aug 18 - 12:26 PM

No, he didn't say that. Just that they look like bank robbers.

Give over, Nigel. You're making a fool of yourself here.

Subject: RE: BS: Johnson shows his colours (again)
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 10 Aug 18 - 12:17 PM

"because it masks the identity of the wearer."
That would imply, as Johnson and others have, that there is a prominence of criminality among the wearers That would be racialis in itself - there is no such an indication.

That assumes that only Muslim women wear burqas: Guardian
OrBBC News

But, Boris Johnson did not state, nor imply, that "there is a prominence of criminality among wearers".

Subject: RE: BS: Johnson shows his colours (again)
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 Aug 18 - 12:12 PM

"The only reason that countries ban the face veil is because it masks the identity of the wearer."

Absolute rubbish. I can mask my identity by wearing a beard, shaving my beard, dyeing my beard, wearing a false beard, growing my hair, shaving my hair, dyeing my hair, having a Mohican, wearing different glasses every day, wearing sunglasses, wearing a wig, wearing any one of hundreds of styles of hat, changing my clothes, pretending to be crippled, putting my hand in front of my face, blacking up, wearing weird makeup, or adopting a permutation of several or more of the above. The reason countries ban veils is because racists in that country have made that decision. It's the application of cultural imperialism levelled against minorities. This is what is often termed a free country and it's none of any casual observer's business what a woman wears as long as it doesn't breach the debatable laws of decency. There may be exceptional circumstances where it's necessary to require a woman briefly to show her face. That would be rare and, when it happens, it can be handled gently and sensitively (and in private and by women only). Otherwise, we mind our own business and show enough respect to not compare women with letter boxes or bank robbers.

Subject: RE: BS: Johnson shows his colours (again)
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 10 Aug 18 - 12:08 PM

No, I wouldn't leap to his defence.

Subject: RE: BS: Johnson shows his colours (again)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Aug 18 - 12:06 PM

"because it masks the identity of the wearer."
That would imply, as Johnson and others have, that there is a prominence of criminality among the wearers
That would be racialis in itself - there is no such an indication.
That fact is that the Muslim communities have been identified as peaceful, law-abiding and industrious
A few years ago a survey showed them more than willing to integrate into British life
Johnson and Britain's history of 'Paki-bashing' and racial harassment and violence (all go hand in hand) place the blame squarely on the indigenous population Ex foreign secretaries struttin' their racist stuff are just what Britain needs given the sharp rise of racist incidents after the Brexit vote - I don't ****** think!!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Johnson shows his colours (again)
From: DMcG
Date: 10 Aug 18 - 11:55 AM

Side stepping the point there, don't you think?, Nigel? Yes he is unlikely to say such a thing but if he did I doubt if many would leap his defence. And I suspect you would not either.

Subject: RE: BS: Johnson shows his colours (again)
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 10 Aug 18 - 11:50 AM

As John McDonnell began training to be a catholic priest, I doubt he would feel able to criticise anyone's choice of headwear.

Subject: RE: BS: Johnson shows his colours (again)
From: DMcG
Date: 10 Aug 18 - 11:40 AM

That may indeed be how you would react, Nigel. But I suspect Mark steel in his mocking Independent article was closer to the mark saying how most would behave:

One MP who supports Johnson, Andrew Bridgen, said "Boris was just starting a debate" and I’m sure he’d take exactly the same attitude if John McDonnell said "Jews look like they’ve got a pancake on their head."

Subject: RE: BS: Johnson shows his colours (again)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Aug 18 - 11:21 AM

"my reactions would be much the same."
Then you would be stansding on the scaffold alongside Corbyn
"Comments on clothing choices are not attacks on those wearing the clothing."
Coparing them to bank-robber attire and clothing to hide domestic violence, as members of your harty have is downright racial insulting - that's why Johnson is being investigated by your party
The Conservatives were accused of being Islamophobic by a leading Muslim three years ago - they have done nothing about it
Can yuo wonder why?

Of course Jonson is a racist - you've chosen to to totally ignore his track record - Sen at least has put it down to off color humour
Thanks - I got the answer I expected
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Johnson shows his colours (again)
From: Iains
Date: 10 Aug 18 - 10:51 AM

The only reason that countries ban the face veil is because it masks the identity of the wearer.

It is bizaare that the person that hijacks threads to talk about wine, wandering and weeds now feels he has the right to dictate the direction threads go.

Subject: RE: BS: Johnson shows his colours (again)
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 10 Aug 18 - 10:45 AM

From: Jim Carroll - PM
Date: 10 Aug 18 - 10:04 AM
Simple question Nigel
Would you be making the same "few lines" claims if Johnson had chosen the Orthodox Jewish People as his target - if not, why not

As one of those often on your side of arguments would say: "Hoops"

However I'll respond.
If Boris had chosen the clothing choices of orthodox Jews as a target, my reactions would be much the same. That would not be targeting the Jews, just targeting their clothing.
Similarly if he targeted the Turbans of the Sikhs, as many did when the requirement was brought in for wearing helmets on motorcycles.

Comments on clothing choices are not attacks on those wearing the clothing.

I can often be seen in cassock and surplice. If someone says the clothing looks like a girl's clothing, that is their opinion.
When I was much younger I was told it made me look angelic. Looks can be deceiving.

Subject: RE: BS: Johnson shows his colours (again)
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 10 Aug 18 - 10:39 AM

I saw that FB piece too, Dave. Very well written, and every word the indisputable truth.

Subject: RE: BS: Johnson shows his colours (again)
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 10 Aug 18 - 10:30 AM

Something posted by a friend on Facebook. Sorry to lift it verbatim if you read this Geoff but you put it far better than me.

NONE of this is about the Burkha. It is about Johnson's deliberate use of insulting language and mockery of people who belong to a different culture/race/religion.
Johnson couldn't care less what muslims wear. The whole purpose of his article was to establish himself politically amongst the racist right wing (in the same way that trump and farage did).
He has just returned from meetings with Steve Bannon - the founder of the Far-Right propoganda and fake news publication, Breibart.The man who planned Trump's racist and lying presidential campaign. Boris is simply following the blueprint laid down by Bannon to court the racists in his personal bid for power.

I would have just said weasel words from a true snake and shown little wonder that the biggest snake on here has shown his support.

Subject: RE: BS: Johnson shows his colours (again)
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 10 Aug 18 - 10:22 AM

Calling people that wear one letterboxes and bank robbers is yet another

The comments were about how people looked. Boris didn't describe people as letterboxes and bank robbers.
For the benefit of those who haven't read the original (I accept that some have) here are the two passages:

If you tell me that the burka is oppressive, then I am with you. If you say that it is weird and bullying to expect women to cover their faces, then I totally agree – and I would add that I can find no scriptural authority for the practice in the Koran. I would go further and say that it is absolutely ridiculous that people should choose to go around looking like letter boxes; and I thoroughly dislike any attempt by any – invariably male – government to encourage such demonstrations of “modesty”, notably the extraordinary exhortations of President Ramzan Kadyrov of Chechnya, who has told the men of his country to splat their women with paintballs if they fail to cover their heads.

And:

If a constituent came to my MP’s surgery with her face obscured, I should feel fully entitled – like Jack Straw – to ask her to remove it so that I could talk to her properly. If a female student turned up at school or at a university lecture looking like a bank robber then ditto: those in authority should be allowed to converse openly with those that they are being asked to instruct. As for individual businesses or branches of government – they should of course be able to enforce a dress code that enables their employees to interact with customers; and that means human beings must be able to see each other’s faces and read their expressions. It’s how we work.

All that seems to me to be sensible. But such restrictions are not quite the same as telling a free-born adult woman what she may or may not wear, in a public place, when she is simply minding her own business.

Subject: RE: BS: Johnson shows his colours (again)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Aug 18 - 10:04 AM

Simple question Nigel
Would you be making the same "few lines" claims if Johnson had chosen the Orthodox Jewish People as his target - if not, why not
I understand if you don't wish to rely, nut I think everyone here with take your silence as a resounding "NO"
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Johnson shows his colours (again)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 Aug 18 - 10:01 AM

I can only repeat that disagreeing with the burka is one thing. Calling people that wear one letterboxes and bank robbers is yet another.

It says he thinks they look silly.
That is not vilification. It would not matter if it was any other garment, but he should have been aware of the sensitivities surrounding it.
If he wanted to be inflamatory he could have just supported the position of the main EU countries on this.

Senoufou, he made a good and popular London Mayor didn't he.

Subject: RE: BS: Johnson shows his colours (again)
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 10 Aug 18 - 09:59 AM

Steve and Dave - absolutely spot on.

As ever, we have the usual defenders of the indefensible here doing their thing, and once again defending the indefensible. It's less about the actual words which that blond POS used, it's the intent in his using them that is so utterly abhorrent. In the BrexShit campaign, he knew that the 'Take Back Control' bollocks he spouted at the end of every sentence he uttered in public would work to galvanise the Union-Flag-Boxers, British-Bulldog-Tattoo, Little-Englanders, and in his 'Burqa' article he knew that the 'letterbox' and 'bank-robber' references would have precisely the same effect.

He's a rabble-rouser, nothing more, nothing less - a disgrace to UK politics in general, and to his party in particular. The Conservative Party should turf him out.

Subject: RE: BS: Johnson shows his colours (again)
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 10 Aug 18 - 09:48 AM

One of the reasons I don't go into pubs any more.

Subject: RE: BS: Johnson shows his colours (again)
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 10 Aug 18 - 09:45 AM

I can only repeat that disagreeing with the burka is one thing. Calling people that wear one letterboxes and bank robbers is yet another. If someone was to do that in a pub, I would probably go and sit elsewhere. Unfortunately that is not an option as Johnson is at every table in every pub in the land.

Subject: RE: BS: Johnson shows his colours (again)
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 Aug 18 - 09:42 AM

The rest of the article (yes, I've read it) is totally irrelevant here except in the minds of you valiant but misguided Johnson supporters (I'm trying to be kind). Letter box and bank robbers were the whole point. They were not off-the-cuff careless remarks. They were not slips of the tongue when the mic was accidentally left switched on. They were premeditated, proofread and editorially-vetted words and you can bet your life that Johnson was asked if he really wanted them to stand before the article was published. He meant them to provoke exactly the tide of racism that's sweeping the country right now and they were calculated to appeal in the most vulgar and populist manner to the Islamophobic low-life in this country. If you had any sense you would dissociate yourself from him. You are demeaning yourself by defending him.

Subject: RE: BS: Johnson shows his colours (again)
From: Raggytash
Date: 10 Aug 18 - 09:37 AM

Likening women wearing burqua's to letterboxes and bankrobbers only "appears" to be discriminatory does it Nigel.

What planet do you live on!?!

Subject: RE: BS: Johnson shows his colours (again)
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 10 Aug 18 - 09:29 AM

Steve Shaw:
No!
The discussion now is following the original article by Boris.
He did not make comments against the wearers of veils (burqas/niqabs) he supported their use by those who wish to use them.
He did come out in opposition to UK following Denmark in imposing a ban on such clothing.

It is not the people here (in the current discussion) ignoring what Boris said, it is you, concentrating on a couple of phrases which, when stated out of context, appear to be discriminatory.

Subject: RE: BS: Johnson shows his colours (again)
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 Aug 18 - 09:08 AM

See what I mean, folks? He's got you into a free-rambling discussion about veils, instead of a discussion about his intemperate remarks. He's won the battle with you. This isn't about whether and when and why Muslim women wear or don't wear veils or about issues at airports, etc. It's about the precise words he used in a premeditated and calculated article in a major publication. Now we are having a relatively civilised discussion here with an eye over our shoulders for fear of excoriation or deletion over political incorrectness. You won't be getting that in the pubs, clubs, workplaces and homes of this sceptred isle. There'll be plenty of free-flowing anti-burqa and anti-Muslim chatter going on the length and breath of the nation, all arising from Boris's remarks. He is doing immense damage. He knew what he was doing all right and shame on the people on this forum who are defending him. If you think he was right, you're a racist just like him. If you think he's just a good-natured oafish fellow with a bit of a loose gob, you're a sucker.

Subject: RE: BS: Johnson shows his colours (again)
From: Senoufou
Date: 10 Aug 18 - 08:43 AM

Thompson, they had exactly that system in Tripoli Airport when I had to stop over in transit. A veiled woman official dealt with us ladeeez in a separate room, while the men were dealt with elsewhere.

Subject: RE: BS: Johnson shows his colours (again)
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 10 Aug 18 - 07:59 AM

You can definitely sing and play the guitar better than Bozo, Al! ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Johnson shows his colours (again)
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 10 Aug 18 - 07:52 AM

To be honest - I really don't think Boris confines his sneering to any particular group.

I can sneer better than him anyway.

Subject: RE: BS: Johnson shows his colours (again)
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 10 Aug 18 - 07:41 AM

Funnily enough, Thompson, I work with a few women who wear traditional Muslim dress but do not wear a veil. I once saw one go outside and don a veil. When I asked her, purely out of interest, why she wore the veil outside she replied it was to 'annoy the blokes trying to oggle her'! I found it hilarious. There are also one or two who I have seen on a night out on the town with traditional dress and bright coloured mini-dresses over the top :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Johnson shows his colours (again)
From: Thompson
Date: 10 Aug 18 - 06:25 AM

Passport control should be simple enough - just have a separate queue with a room staffed by women where veiled women could go in and have their faces checked against their passports. It would probably be slower than the other queues, but it would be an option.
Banks are disappearing anyway - they're not worth robbing any more because they hardly keep any cash on the premises. Most banking is done online or by phone.
It's interesting that the veil had virtually disappeared in a more liberal era, but has reappeared - to some extent as a protest garment - in the current era of angry populism.
I don't think most of the populism is actually a left-right thing @Senoufou

Subject: RE: BS: Johnson shows his colours (again)
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 10 Aug 18 - 06:17 AM

If it was a case of Johnson sneering a Jewish traditionalists styles of dress and hair, those defending this would be throwing the rope over the "antisemitism" tree ready for a lynching

and blaming Jeremy Corbyn :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Johnson shows his colours (again)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Aug 18 - 05:43 AM

This is a matter of an ex foreign secretary taking the piss out of traditional dress - it is diversive to make it a security issue
If it was a case of Johnson sneering a Jewish traditionalists styles of dress and hair, those defending this would be throwing the rope over the "antisemitism" tree ready for a lynching
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Johnson shows his colours (again)
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 10 Aug 18 - 05:21 AM

Guidance on how to treat women wearing clothing that covers their face

Subject: RE: BS: Johnson shows his colours (again)
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 10 Aug 18 - 05:18 AM

Yes, Nigel, it is complicated.

You may have read the article as vilifying the garment but many used it as an excuse to have a go at Muslims. You do not vilify the wearer but you do vilify the man who "is in a position of power over her". Instead of just saying that none of us fully understand it why not try to understand it? That way we may be in a better position to comment and to argue against repressive traditions more effectively.

Worth a try surely?

Subject: RE: BS: Johnson shows his colours (again)
From: Iains
Date: 10 Aug 18 - 05:13 AM

How do you verify who is coming through passport control if you cannot see the face. You cannot use a bank wearing a crash helmet, because it obscures the face.
Many west african countries are banning the burka on the grounds it represents a terrorist threat. These are largely Islamic countries!
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/05/02/west-african-states-with-181-million-muslims-support-banning-the/

Far more worrying to me is the fact that the Met Commissoner Cressida Dick asked her officers to probe Boris Johnson's burqas comments.
To make this a very public announcement displays to me an overtly political stance. Does the police state soon follow?

Subject: RE: BS: Johnson shows his colours (again)
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 10 Aug 18 - 04:58 AM

The choice to wear the garment is the womans and hers alone. It is fine to disagree but never OK to vilify them for it.

Dave,
I would fully agree with that, if I believed that the choice was the woman's alone. But (from all I've read) in many cases it is not the woman's choice, but that of her husband/father, or whatever male figure is in a position of power over her.
And yes, the wearers shouldn't be vilified for it, but I read the article as vilifying the garment, not the wearers.

In Cardiff recently I saw two (presumably) Islamic ladies in full length robes, with hair covered, but with faces visible having a 'natter'. There did not appear to be any Islamic men on the bus, but the women didn't seem bothered by my presence, or that of others.
Before leaving the bus they both replaced their face coverings, presumably as they risked then being seen by their own men.

It is not a simple matter of dress preferences, and I doubt if any of us fully understand it.

Subject: RE: BS: Johnson shows his colours (again)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Aug 18 - 04:14 AM

He's already made OVERTURES

I've always liked Michael Portillo.
You know his father was a Spanish Commie of course

"I think Boris would make a good PM."
Given the standards of morality of this Government and their clownish incompetence, I think he would make a perfect Tory leader - but a misogynist racist buffoon leading Britain - shame on you Sen - you really do disappoint me
Perhaps you can say why you support him - maybe he has been sadly misjudged and didn't say what he has been quoted as saying?
I WONDER WOULD SHE AGREE WITH YOU?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Johnson shows his colours (again)
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 10 Aug 18 - 03:42 AM

How long before Trump persuades Farrage to join the tory party as Plan B...???

[or perhaps his preferred Plan A...!!!???]

Subject: RE: BS: Johnson shows his colours (again)
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 10 Aug 18 - 03:27 AM

Johnson could not care less about the Burka. The issue is not about clothing, it is about his carefully chosen use of language to dehumanise people as 'letter boxes' and 'bank robbers'. The choice to wear the garment is the womans and hers alone. It is fine to disagree but never OK to vilify them for it.

It is quite significant that he just returned from a meeting with Steve Bannon, the man who planned Trumps campaign of populist racism and lies. If he succeeds in his bid to lead the country I shall consider emigrating as well, Eliza. Hopefully not enough people have been fooled by him but given the threats and hate mail that Lord Sheikh, president of the Conservative Muslim Forum, has received since asking for Johnson to apologise, I have serious reservations.

Subject: RE: BS: Johnson shows his colours (again)
From: Senoufou
Date: 10 Aug 18 - 02:58 AM

I've always liked Michael Portillo.

I think Boris would make a good PM.

(I'm now going to emigrate to Ivory Coast for about two years while the resultant flak aimed at the batty old Tory biddie ricochets around on this thread) ;)

Subject: RE: BS: Johnson shows his colours (again)
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 10 Aug 18 - 02:48 AM

He doesn't strike me as a liability to his party. A liability to Theresa May possibly.

The thing about Boris - he instinctively knows how to connect with the tory voter. The party would be more successful under him.

Just as it would have been under Hesseltine and Portillo. Princes over the water in their own time. The grey men of the tory central office call the shots.

I think maybe they'd like Corbyn to sort out the mess created by the referendum. Or at least eat the resultant shit sandwich for them. I think we see ahead a period Tory leaders like Rees Mogg, Hunt, even Davis - people no one would vote for unless Corbyn is found in bed with a choirboy.

Subject: RE: BS: Johnson shows his colours (again)
From: Thompson
Date: 09 Aug 18 - 03:34 PM

Lol! Love the herring piece!

Subject: RE: BS: Johnson shows his colours (again)
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 09 Aug 18 - 12:47 PM

are you a tory ?

Subject: RE: BS: Johnson shows his colours (again)
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 09 Aug 18 - 11:14 AM

Citing one country's legislation is not an excuse for a public figure to use insulting directed towards one group of people who apply customs in relation to how they observe their faith, especially where the former may be based upon complex (but not necessarily valid) responses to national issues, while the latter either inadvertently, or deliberately - which I think is the case for Johnson - seeks to normalise individual racist behaviours.

Subject: RE: BS: Johnson shows his colours (again)
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 09 Aug 18 - 10:56 AM

It's worth considering how Boris is also cunningly courting far right racists back into voting tory [ie..him ideally]
by playing along with their inverted ideology that it is the 'so called' foreign liberal democracies like Denmark
who are actually the real intolerant dictatorships,
whilst the alt right are the only real true upholders of 'freedom' in our modern era...

Yes he certainly knew what he was trying to achieve for himself with this carefully premeditated article...

Whether it works out as intended depends on who is the most ruthlessly effective backstabber contender
amongst his tory leadership rivals..

Subject: RE: BS: Johnson shows his colours (again)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Aug 18 - 08:24 AM

It seems Johnson is now being regarded as a liability by his party
This has yet to reach some of his supporters here
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Johnson shows his colours (again)
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 Aug 18 - 08:20 AM

Absolutely spot-on, pfr, and concisely put (unlike wot I seem to manage...).

Subject: RE: BS: Johnson shows his colours (again)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Aug 18 - 08:16 AM

"In todays newspapers it is reported that Johnson is to face an enquiry into his remarks. "
It's just been announced on the news that an enquiry will take place - apparently the source for this was Downing Street
jimm Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Johnson shows his colours (again)
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 09 Aug 18 - 08:10 AM

Boris speaks with forked tongue - he wants his cake and eat it - he is a duplicitous tory of the most cynical kind...

Of course he would position himself as not being a racist with any intention to ban muslim cultural dress,
whilst at the same time giving overt signals to real racists
that he is the mainstream politician they can feel most comfortable voting for...

Subject: RE: BS: Johnson shows his colours (again)
From: Raggytash
Date: 09 Aug 18 - 07:48 AM

In todays newspapers it is reported that Johnson is to face an enquiry into his remarks. There is a report on the Guardians on-line page but unfortunately it will not link for some reason.

Subject: RE: BS: Johnson shows his colours (again)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Aug 18 - 05:59 AM

"They should be read in the context of the whole article,"
No they shouldn't Nigel - they should be read in context of Johnson's serial racism

THis is the man you are bending over backward to defend

1. On Hillary Clinton, Telegraph 2007
She's got dyed blonde hair and pouty lips, and a steely blue stare, like a sadistic nurse in a mental hospital.

2. On Bashar Al-Assad, Telegraph March 2016
Hooray, I say. Bravo – and keep going.

3. On black people, 2010
What a relief it must be for Blair to get out of England. It is said that the Queen has come to love the Commonwealth, partly because it supplies her with regular cheering crowds of flag-waving piccaninnies.

4. On his time as editor of Spectator
Johnson was heavily criticised back in 2008 about a Spectator article which was published when he was editor of the publication. Ken Livingston and a black lawyer accused him of condoning racism after he allowed an article to be published which said:
Orientals ... have larger brains and higher IQ scores. Blacks are at the other pole.

5. On Barack Obama, The Sun April 2006
The part-Kenyan President [has an] ancestral dislike of the British empire – of which Churchill had been such a fervent defender.

6. On Malaysian women attending university, 2013
At the World Islamic Economic Forum Malaysian Prime Minister Najib Razak said that 68 per cent of women were going to be attending university, to which Johnson quipped:

[Female students went to university because they] have got to find men to marry.

7. On the EU and the Nazis, The Sunday Telegraph 2016
Johnson claimed that the past 2,000 years had seen failed attempts to recreate the "golden age" of the Roman Empire.

Napoleon, Hitler, various people tried this out, and it ends tragically. The EU is an attempt to do this by different methods.

8. On Turkish president Tayyip Erdogan, The Spectator, May 2016
There was a young fellow from Ankara
Who was a terrific wankerer.
Till he sowed his wild oats
With the help of a goat
But he didn’t even stop to thankera.

9. On Eurosceptics
I can hardly condemn Ukip as a bunch of boss-eyed, foam-flecked euro hysterics, when I have been sometimes not far short of boss-eyed, foam-flecked hysteria myself.

10. On voting Conservative
Voting Tory will cause your wife to have bigger breasts and increase your chances of owning a BMW

They say he is shortly off to the Congo. No doubt the AK47s will fall silent, and the pangas will stop their hacking of human flesh, and the tribal warriors will all break out in Watermelon smiles to see the big white chief touch down in his big white British taxpayer-funded bird.

The problem is not that we were once in charge, but that we are not in charge any more... Consider Uganda, pearl of Africa, as an example of the British record. … the British planted coffee and cotton and tobacco, and they were broadly right... If left to their own devices, the natives would rely on nothing but the instant carbohydrate gratification of the plantain. You never saw a place so abounding in bananas: great green barrel-sized bunches, off to be turned into matooke. Though this dish (basically fried banana) was greatly relished by Idi Amin, the colonists correctly saw that the export market was limited... The best fate for Africa would be if the old colonial powers, or their citizens, scrambled once again in her direction; on the understanding that this time they will not be asked to feel guilty.

Chinese cultural influence is virtually nil, and unlikely to increase… Indeed, high Chinese culture and art are almost all imitative of western forms: Chinese concert pianists are technically brilliant, but brilliant at Schubert and Rachmaninov. Chinese ballerinas dance to the scores of Diaghilev. The number of Chinese Nobel prizes won on home turf is zero, although there are of course legions of bright Chinese trying to escape to Stanford and Caltech… It is hard to think of a single Chinese sport at the Olympics, compared with umpteen invented by Britain, including ping-pong, I’ll have you know, which originated at upper-class dinner tables and was first called whiff-whaff. The Chinese have a script so fiendishly complicated that they cannot produce a proper keyboard for it.

IN FULL _ THIS MAKES FASCINATING READING

The man is a misogynistic racist moron
Personally I hope he gets's to be Prime Minister - that will put paid to the Tories ever being taken seriously
Rees Mogg will do that job equally as well

All academic now
If Trump gets his way the actions of all nations will be DECIDED elsewhere
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Johnson shows his colours (again)
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 Aug 18 - 05:53 AM

It doesn't matter what else he wrote in the article, and he knew that when he wrote it. He's a politician, Nigel. He knew full well that the letter box/bank robber bits would be pounced on and would add to his much-required notoriety. He's a keen observer of Trump's shallow populism, and has learned that you can say whatever you like because even more people will love you for it and you can always say something different tomorrow. In this case those throwaway words were intended to pander to and give succour to the closet and not-so-closet Islamophobes in this country. I notice that several of the Tory specimens of that kind crawled out of the woodwork to defend him. Kudos to Sayeeda Warsi and Dominic Grieve for expressing what appeared to be their genuine outrage, and you won't often find me praising Tories in that way. Johnson's deviousness worked on a member of my family and he certainly seems to have worked his magic on you. Don't be so gullible.

Subject: RE: BS: Johnson shows his colours (again)
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 09 Aug 18 - 05:53 AM

Yes, let us look at the context.

An individuial poster on an obscure minority interest music forum had a laugh at Boris Johnson's expense.

A major player in the government currently ruling the UK and columnist in a an international newspaper had a laugh at the expense of millions of women.

Are you seriously trying to tell us it is the same situation, Nigel?

Subject: RE: BS: Johnson shows his colours (again)
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 09 Aug 18 - 05:24 AM

I saw irony in the remark, not fun. It's like quoting the Bible, innit, Keith. So easy to pluck a bit out of its context in order to misuse it. Dishonest as ever.

Just like the "Letter-box" and "Bank robbers" bits. They should be read in the context of the whole article, which came out strongly against banning the burka, while also making the point that is not a religious requirement, but is a means of keeping Islamic women "in their place" by the male dominated Islamic culture.

Subject: RE: BS: Johnson shows his colours (again)
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 09 Aug 18 - 04:47 AM

Don't fall for it BWM. You know that path leads to madness :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Johnson shows his colours (again)
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 Aug 18 - 04:46 AM

I saw irony in the remark, not fun. It's like quoting the Bible, innit, Keith. So easy to pluck a bit out of its context in order to misuse it. Dishonest as ever.

Subject: RE: BS: Johnson shows his colours (again)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 Aug 18 - 04:38 AM

I just find it hysterically funny that an overweight blob with no appreciation of the value of a decent haircut, and with the sartorial elegance of a sack of shit tied round the middle,

Yes, and it is OK to make fun of his obesity, dress sense and haircut.
His and anyone else's.

Subject: RE: BS: Johnson shows his colours (again)
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 Aug 18 - 04:38 AM

The minute we start squabbling about what Ofsted say about face-coverings or about whether Muslim teachers should be allowed to wear them is the minute that Johnson has achieved his aim of injecting a little more Islamophobia into the argument. Muslim teachers' face-coverings in classrooms is a virtual non-issue that, should it ever arise, can be dealt with gently and amicably at local level. But he's got us bringing it up as though it was a serious and sinister matter. Nice one, Boris. The man has form and the injection of those remarks into his article was racist.

Subject: RE: BS: Johnson shows his colours (again)
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 09 Aug 18 - 04:37 AM

The letterbox and bank robber 'jokes' are the key point, Eliza. While it is fine amongst friends and family, no-one in Johnson's position should make such crass comments. If he really wanted to defend their right to dress as they want, mocking that dress seems a very odd way to do it. As I keep saying however, he is not trying to help anyone but himself.

And thanks for confirming that you do not feel bullied.

Subject: RE: BS: Johnson shows his colours (again)
From: Senoufou
Date: 09 Aug 18 - 04:29 AM

One or two points:-

Johnson hasn't in any way been telling others how to dress. On the contrary, he defends their right to dress how they wish, in opposition to Denmark, France et al. Why are people missing this important point while getting bogged down in letterbox jokes?

Our neighbour's funny banter is and never has been directed at my husband's religion, merely at his (very) black appearance and ethnicity. I described the rejoinders in order to demonstrate that being over-sensitive when the underlying attitude is one of friendliness, kindness and affection is counter-productive and achieves little.

Thank you Keith, it's good to know that you agree with me.

I find Boris's appearance endearing and amusing. In the opening ceremony of the 2012 Olympic Games, he shone as a typical bumbling, dishevelled and eccentric Englishman. However, I also think he's very astute and intelligent.

Although I don't know any poster on here personally, I'm very fond indeed of all the regulars on Mudcat. All are entitled to their opinions, but I don't like savage, unpleasant name-calling. Fortunately, nobody has ever directed such stuff at me.

Just to stir the pot a bit more, early yesterday evening our neighbour was out the front tinkering with his tractor when my husband, wearing his African baggy trousers and tunic, emerged to water our tubs. Neighbour called over, "Wot! Hev yew got yer pyjamas ahn orlreddy?" Husband fell about laughing.
When husband's father died last year, neighbour flung his arms around him and hugged him very lovingly while he sobbed on his shoulder. There's no racism there, believe me.

Subject: RE: BS: Johnson shows his colours (again)
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 09 Aug 18 - 04:13 AM

Whether its Johnson or the head of OFSTED, asking people to conform to their cultural norms where these conflict with the cultural norms of the people themselves is unwarranted interference.

Subject: RE: BS: Johnson shows his colours (again)
From: Thompson
Date: 09 Aug 18 - 04:07 AM

The trouble with Boris Johnson is that he's an attention-seeker - a noticebox, as our mothers used to say. He'd do or say anything if it got him attention. And that's not what you want in an MP or a prime minister, in my opinion. What you want is quiet steadiness, intelligent consistency and humanity.

Subject: RE: BS: Johnson shows his colours (again)
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 09 Aug 18 - 04:04 AM

I hope you do not feel bullied by either me or Steve, Eliza. I cannot see anything in our posts that you could construe as that but maybe you read them differently. Feel free to point out any that you are intimidated by. I am sure that your comment

I do wish people would let the so-called 'victims of racism' defend themselves if they want to. It's belittling to assume they're too weak to speak.

Applies to anyone trying to speak for you as well!

D.

Subject: RE: BS: Johnson shows his colours (again)
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 09 Aug 18 - 03:55 AM

I just find it hysterically funny that an overweight blob with no appreciation of the value of a decent haircut, and with the sartorial elegance of a sack of shit tied round the middle, feels qualified to tell others how to dress.

Glass-houses, stones.

Subject: RE: BS: Johnson shows his colours (again)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 Aug 18 - 03:44 AM

I agree Senoufou, and I object to the blatant bullying by Steve and Dave of anyone who dares disagree with their extreme views.

Subject: RE: BS: Johnson shows his colours (again)
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 09 Aug 18 - 03:39 AM

PFR:


a] Ken Clarke - obviously, though he would only be a stopgap

b] Andrew Brigden - Johnson's bulldog, Johnson but without the subtlety

Subject: RE: BS: Johnson shows his colours (again)
From: Senoufou
Date: 09 Aug 18 - 03:13 AM

Your close family member, Steve, concurs with the Head of Ofsted, who in 2016 warned that any school in which staff covered their faces would have its Ofsted rating downgraded. He added that one needs to be able to see the face of a communicator and also that of the pupils.
As a teacher I agree completely with that.

Subject: RE: BS: Johnson shows his colours (again)
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 09 Aug 18 - 01:27 AM

Interesting one. PFR.

Best from our point of view or the prosperity of the tory party.

I think I'd say Boris would say all the things that tick the boxes with the traditional tory vote.

Jacob Rees Mogg would say almost the same things but get about half the votes. Total charisma bypass.

Subject: RE: BS: Johnson shows his colours (again)
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 08 Aug 18 - 09:41 PM

Here's a question for us non tories...

Who would be their best next leader...???

a] as a fairly OK person, best of a bad lot, liable to cause least problems for us average folks...

or

b] likely to f@ck up so badly, the tories will implode and need to call an early election...

Subject: RE: BS: Johnson shows his colours (again)
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 08 Aug 18 - 08:34 PM

the thing is, i dislike Boris intensely. Anyone who edits The Spectator has to be a right wing shit.

But he hasn't succeeded in anything, except making those left of ghengis khan look like unrepresentative lentil chewing lefties. They rise to it every time.

Subject: RE: BS: Johnson shows his colours (again)
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 08 Aug 18 - 07:52 PM

This was no innocent piece of banter from a man who we all know has form. He knows bloody well that his remarks play very well with a certain type of Islamophobe in this country. I was discussing this with a very close family member today. After sort of agreeing that it's OK for people to wear whatever they like, etc., she then blurted out that she would "never allow any child of hers to be taught by a woman wearing one of those." Well, as far as I know there has not been such an issue, at least one that hasn't been amicably resolved. Therefore Boris has achieved his goal with her, that she should think there's something sinister about a woman who chooses (or whose husband has chosen for her) to hide her face. In microcosm that represents the deliberate damage that Johnson has set out to cause. And, Senoufou, I know you're a Tory and a fan of Boris. But it doesn't mean that your critical faculties have to be sent away on holiday. Your man has gone a little way towards making anti-Muslim hate speech more acceptable. That isn't very nice and the nasty thing is that that is exactly what he's set out to do. You should take a leaf out of Sayeeda Warsi's book.

Subject: RE: BS: Johnson shows his colours (again)
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 08 Aug 18 - 07:52 PM

From Maajid Nawaz:-


This is the uniform of medieval patriarchal tyranny. It victim-blames women for their beauty. Where this is enforced it symbolises violent misogyny. I’m not advocating banning this monstrosity but I refuse to defend it. It deserves to be ridiculed. Not the women inside it.

Women defending this have Stockholm syndrome. Liberals defending this are akin to conservatives defending the confederate flag. It is not racist to challenge religion (which is an idea, not a race). It is our civic duty. It is not offensive to remind everyone that this isn’t normal. It is offensive to advocate for this to become normalised.

Subject: RE: BS: Johnson shows his colours (again)
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 08 Aug 18 - 06:12 PM

This man criticised the way Muslim women dress!!

Subject: RE: BS: Johnson shows his colours (again)
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 08 Aug 18 - 05:14 PM

Just watching the news and can now answer Pete's question. No it is not all white males. It is men and women from the across the cultural spectrum in the UK who agree that his statements were inflammatory and bigoted. One comment was that it is nothing to do with the dress and all to do with Boris. I agree with that.

Oh, and us Gnomes don't do colour apart from our waistcoat :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Johnson shows his colours (again)
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 08 Aug 18 - 03:06 PM

Just wondering how regularly tory ministers are drug tested...???

They all seem to show symptoms of suspiciously over confident megalomania and invincibility...

Subject: RE: BS: Johnson shows his colours (again)
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 08 Aug 18 - 03:02 PM

Best to just ignore those sniping from the sidelines. The alternative will just get the thread closed, which is what they probably want.

Subject: RE: BS: Johnson shows his colours (again)
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 08 Aug 18 - 02:50 PM

Sayeeda Warsi has stated clearly why Johnson's comments are unacceptable. She seems far too decent to be a tory.

Subject: RE: BS: Johnson shows his colours (again)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Aug 18 - 02:47 PM

Leave th Part if Johnson became PM of course
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Johnson shows his colours (again)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Aug 18 - 02:31 PM

A leading Tory has just declared that he would leave the party
May and her colleagues are demanding Johnson should apologise - he refuses
Those who believe Johnson is using this racism to jockey for power have just been vindicated by two Brummie Johnson supporters who praise his racism as "Just what ewe think - you never what's behind those maskes - they could be men - we'd vote for him tomorrow"
Brexit populism rides again
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Johnson shows his colours (again)
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 08 Aug 18 - 02:25 PM

We're definitely warming up for the tory leadership contest...

Subject: RE: BS: Johnson shows his colours (again)
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 08 Aug 18 - 02:21 PM

We agree, Bonz!

Subject: RE: BS: Johnson shows his colours (again)
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 08 Aug 18 - 02:17 PM

Johnson is a lying shit of the worst order.

Subject: RE: BS: Johnson shows his colours (again)
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 08 Aug 18 - 02:06 PM

Your next door neighbour has an audience of 2, Eliza. Johnson has an audience of millions. Your neighbour knows you will not take offence. Johnson knows that some people will and is purposely provocative to further his own ends. I know you are an intelligent person and will be very surprised if you cannot see the difference. The fact that he is a leading member of your chosen party should not be an excuse for gross insensitivity.

One of your colleagues on here refers to those to the left of the political spectrum as leftards and calls another intelligent woman Abbototamus because of her weight and ethnic background. Would you excuse that as well?

Subject: RE: BS: Johnson shows his colours (again)
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 08 Aug 18 - 02:04 PM

Sen - If you search youtube for "Curry and Chips" [6 episodes]...

you should find a prime example of 'robust' racist
banter between characters who can barely tolerate each other
but are factory work mates..

This was considered too unacceptable even in 1968...

..and unbroadcastable now 50 years later...

It was not however crass bigoted mainstream sit-com humour,
but intended as anarchic satire from the pens of Johnny Speight and Spike Milligan...

The satire proved too clever for unsophisticated audiences who took the humour at face value
as a reflection of normal British culture...
I can vouch for that, as I was 9 watching it with my provincial council estate family...

...As Boris demonstrates, this issue is all too complex even in our 'more enlightened' 21st century Britain...

As long as your husband gives back as good as he gets and takes the piss out of honky next door...

[we were also big fans of Love Thy Neighbour...]

Subject: RE: BS: Johnson shows his colours (again)
From: Senoufou
Date: 08 Aug 18 - 01:41 PM

My husband is an intelligent and aware person. If he were at all offended by anyone's remarks, he's more than capable of objecting on his own behalf.
But he's not offended. It's just banter, and he actually enjoys it.
He's insightful enough to know what their true feelings are, and that they like him enormously.

They aren't elderly at all, they're aged about 50 (much younger than us!).

I do wish people would let the so-called 'victims of racism' defend themselves if they want to. It's belittling to assume they're too weak to speak.

Subject: RE: ks BS: Johnson shows his colours (again)
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 08 Aug 18 - 12:33 PM

I looked for links for latest research into what ghosts faces look like under their sheets,
but Google Assist AI told me it was too stupid and to stop wasting her time...

I replied it was for a serious discussion on mudcat,
but she just laughed scornfully in a robotic cackle
and told me to go away in language
I will not repeat here...

Subject: RE: BS: Johnson shows his colours (again)
From: Raggytash
Date: 08 Aug 18 - 12:08 PM

Senoufou, I'd be inclined to have a very quiet word with my neighbour if I were you.

I suspect he is elderly and possibly doesn't realise that some people could take offense.

My Father who died over 30 years ago was a good man, he would help anyone at any time, irrespective of creed or colour, but he sometimes
made what I cosidered to be racist remarks which we argued about, sometimes vehemently.

I do not consider him to have been a racist but his comments were not acceptable in the 1980's and they are would certainly not be considered accepatble today.

In his position as a Member of Parliament and supposably a well educate man Johnson DOES know better, however he opens his mouth without thinking.

On this, and other occasions, he had the time to consider his remarks and the effect they would have and I can only assume he is a boorish oaf.

Subject: RE: BS: Johnson shows his colours (again)
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 08 Aug 18 - 11:58 AM

Roy Chubby Brown is still available...

Subject: RE: BS: Johnson shows his colours (again)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Aug 18 - 11:54 AM

Sorry Sen
If you believe that "off-colour jokes" are permissible from leading members of the Government, that we occupy different 'right and wrong' areas
An ex foreign secretary and aspiring Prime Minister who refers to "watermelon smiles" and compares traditional religious dress to "letter boxes" and "bank raiders" - c'mon!!
Perhaps the Tories should have apponted Bernard Manning Prime Minister when they had the chance
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Johnson shows his colours (again)
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 08 Aug 18 - 11:39 AM

The perennially popular "Love Thy Neighbour" boxset and movie are still available to buy on DVD...

just saying...

Subject: RE: BS: Johnson shows his colours (again)
From: Senoufou
Date: 08 Aug 18 - 10:57 AM

Dave, our next-door neighbour is always cracking 'off-colour jokes' at the expense of my black husband. He asked him to grin outside in the dark (no street lights here) or he wouldn't see him coming. When we get back from the supermarket, he sometimes asks if he's been to get his consignment of bananas. He gave him a birthday card with a gorilla on the front.
My husband thinks all this is hilarious (so do I) and we're neither of us offended at all. The same neighbour and his wife have been in to help us on many occasions; once or twice we wouldn't have known what to do without their kindness. We're very, very fond of them both.

I sincerely don't believe Johnson meant anything much by his silly jokes. It was, as I said, a bit ill-advised (as Theresa May pointed out) but the end of his pronouncement was in favour of freedom of Muslim women to wear whatever they wish. An admirable sentiment in my opinion.

Subject: RE: BS: Johnson shows his colours (again)
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 08 Aug 18 - 10:44 AM

anyway... what about ghosts..

should they be expected to remove their sheets under any ban...???

who really wants to see their scary faces in public...

Subject: RE: BS: Johnson shows his colours (again)
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 08 Aug 18 - 10:30 AM

with the exception of senoufou above all commentators i have heard (from the radio and on here) on what asian women should choose to wear have been from middle aged white (presumably-what colour gnome are you, dave?) men. i'd be interested to know what are the views of women who are directly affected by the question and the comments of b johnson and others.

But if the burka is a symbol of subjugation of Islamic women by the men, then surely these women are the one group who will least be able (or allowed) to express themselves.

Subject: RE: BS: Johnson shows his colours (again)
From: peteglasgow
Date: 08 Aug 18 - 09:53 AM

with the exception of senoufou above all commentators i have heard (from the radio and on here) on what asian women should choose to wear have been from middle aged white (presumably-what colour gnome are you, dave?) men. i'd be interested to know what are the views of women who are directly affected by the question and the comments of b johnson and others.

(while of course we can never judge someone entirely on appearances - why do we give any credibility to the likes of johnson, gove, IDS, rees-moog etc. all of them look weird and likely criminals in their expensive suits. in my experience it's the men (and a few women )in suits that you have to watch out for and are most likely to be in the business of stealing from ordinary folk for their own gain)

Subject: RE: BS: Johnson shows his colours (again)
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 08 Aug 18 - 09:24 AM

Sorry for the typo.

Subject: RE: BS: Johnson shows his colours (again)
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 08 Aug 18 - 09:23 AM

Nogel, neither you nor I are in Johnsons position of power or write in either the Spectator or the Telegraph.

If you like I can find plenty of other 'ill-advised' statements of his from more recently so, no, he has not refined his language.

This lot are from his time as foreign secretary over the last 2 years.

Subject: RE: BS: Johnson shows his colours (again)
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 08 Aug 18 - 09:16 AM

Dave,
It would take someone better than myself to be able to claim never to have derided the dress sense of a woman:
"mutton dressed as lamb"
"She shouldn't wear stripes" etc.

As for the other quotes from the Spectator, if you need to go back to 2002 to find something suitably offensive, is it possible he has refined his language in the meantime?

Subject: RE: BS: Johnson shows his colours (again)
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 08 Aug 18 - 08:58 AM

And Nigel, for what it is worth, I have read the article and even if it is well meaning, which I doubt as Johnson is primarily self serving, it that does not excuse his derision of the dress sense of certain women.

Subject: RE: BS: Johnson shows his colours (again)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Aug 18 - 08:58 AM

What Johnson actually said, (the bits ignored by detractors)
"So I was a bit surprised to see that on August 1 the Danes joined several other European countries – France, Germany, Austria, Belgium – in imposing a ban on the niqab and the burka – those items of Muslim head-gear that obscure the female face. Already a fine of 1000 kroner – about £120 – has been imposed on a 28-year-old woman seen wearing a niqab in a shopping centre in the north eastern town of Horsholm. A scuffle broke out as someone tried to rip it off her head. There have been demonstrations, on both sides of the argument. What has happened, you may ask, to the Danish spirit of live and let live?"

"I am against a total ban because it is inevitably construed – rightly or wrongly – as being intended to make some point about Islam. If you go for a total ban, you play into the hands of those who want to politicise and dramatise the so-called clash of civilisations; and you fan the flames of grievance. "
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2018/08/05/denmark-has-got-wrong-yes-burka-oppressive-ridiculous-still/

Subject: RE: BS: Johnson shows his colours (again)
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 08 Aug 18 - 08:54 AM

He just likes cracking rather off-colour jokes; ill-advised but not, I think, indicative of any innate racism.

So you are quite happy with his 'off-colour jokes' about Africa and Africans then Eliza? You do surprise me. To save you going back and following the link I provided here is part of his article criticising Tony Blair.

What a relief it must be for Blair to get out of England. It is said that the Queen has come to love the Commonwealth, partly because it supplies her with regular cheering crowds of flag-waving piccaninnies; and one can imagine that Blair, twice victor abroad but enmired at home, is similarly seduced by foreign politeness.

They say he is shortly off to the Congo. No doubt the AK47s will fall silent, and the pangas will stop their hacking of human flesh, and the tribal warriors will all break out in watermelon smiles to see the big white chief touch down in his big white British taxpayer-funded bird.

Bear in mind this was an article in a the Spectator, just as his latest 'ill-advised' rant was in his column in the Telegraph. These were thought out, planned remarks, not off the cuff comments to his Bullingdon club mates.

The man should have no place in modern day politics.

Subject: RE: BS: Johnson shows his colours (again)
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 08 Aug 18 - 08:54 AM

Thanks Eliza.

It's good to see that someone else seems to have actually read the article that's being discussed, rather than just the headlines that others have generated about it.

Subject: RE: BS: Johnson shows his colours (again)
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 08 Aug 18 - 08:49 AM

"I always verify my facts before posting. Others should take up the practice."

When quoting, its best practice to give the source. Without an indication of the source of your quote - or better still, a working link (blue clicky) to that quote - it's nothing more than, as Nigel would say, "your opinion, with no basis in fact". If you're too lazy to give your sources as a matter of good practice, it shouldn't come as a surprise when you're asked to provide them.

It's not rocket science, it's Composition Class 101.

Subject: RE: BS: Johnson shows his colours (again)
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 08 Aug 18 - 08:46 AM

My favourite TV sports are, in no particular order, Boxing, Rugby, Sumo Wrestling,
and Tory Ministerial Leadership Contest Backstabbing...

Our tories - loathe 'em or hate 'em - are world class champion backstabbers
when they get a sniff that their leader is weak and off guard...

That last championship match between Gove and Johnson was an epic backstab to remember for all time...

So looking forward to this latest tournament of no holds barred Machiavellian jostling for position
and treachery from our best match ready tory competitors...

Watch it while it's still free to view on the BBC and ITV...

...sod Sky and BT Sports if they ever get their greedy hands on it...

Subject: RE: BS: Johnson shows his colours (again)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Aug 18 - 08:37 AM

Thanks Senoufou.

Subject: RE: BS: Johnson shows his colours (again)
From: Senoufou
Date: 08 Aug 18 - 08:33 AM

I agree with Keith. Johnson's point was that, despite looking bizarre (cheap joke about letterboxes, which I found quite funny actually) women should not be told what they can or can't wear here in UK.

It seemed to me to be heartening in its tolerance of religious foibles, and supportive of women, not condemnatory of Muslims. He just likes cracking rather off-colour jokes; ill-advised but not, I think, indicative of any innate racism.

In the African countries I've visited (I know Iains has travelled widely there too) most Muslim women do not cover their faces in burkas or anything else. In Cote d'Ivoire, (in the city of Abidjan, not the countryside) one sees the odd lady in full black attire (burka), and even wearing black gloves in the intense heat. The other Muslim women find this silly and unnecessary.

It's quite true that there is nothing in the Koran (which I've read in translation from cover to cover) regarding covering the face. It talks merely about modesty.

Subject: RE: BS: Johnson shows his colours (again)
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 08 Aug 18 - 08:26 AM

Once again a thread falls into the usual barrage of minutiae rather than addressing the issue.

To bring music into it maybe we should post the words for 'here we go again' or, more likely 'Goodbyeeee'

Johnson is a power hungry chancer who will stop at nothing to get to the top. Heaven help us if he does.

Subject: RE: BS: Johnson shows his colours (again)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Aug 18 - 08:04 AM

playing to the xenophobic gallery.

If he wanted to do that he would have supported the Danish ban and called for it here.
Apart from those two insulting comparisons his whole argument was that no-one had the right to tell women what to wear.

Bans are in place against the veil in France, Belgium, Netherlands, Austria, Denmark, Bulgaria and the German state of Bavaria, all countries that most here want ever closer union with!

Subject: RE: BS: Johnson shows his colours (again)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Aug 18 - 07:52 AM

I read what you wrote and described exactly what you are doing here - you are playing own the significance of Johnson's (The man Who Would be King's) serial racism - he should have been pilloried for this years ago; instead they appointed him Foreign Secretary - two fingers to a decent society, if ever there was one
"He is a dangerous, calculating, power-hungry popularist, playing to the xenophobic gallery."
There's that as well - but deep down, he's a racist bigot
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Johnson shows his colours (again)
From: Thompson
Date: 08 Aug 18 - 07:49 AM

The source of that quote is a change.org petition. But come to think of it, that's a good point - if Boris objects to letterboxlike ladies' wear, does he also object to balaclavas, hoodies, etc? Twill be a cold winter for the noses of hardy British cyclists if so!

I might say that I'm no fan at all of face-coverings, but I'd be of the opinion that the best way to make girls want to wear something is to ban it.

Incidentally, I was invited to dine the other night in a lovely balti place, and the chatty owner told me that those face veils are used in northern India as a way of sheltering from too much sun. I don't know about that - wearing black doesn't seem like a good idea in high sun - but she also said that in the kind of heat they get there, people only go outdoors before noon (or maybe it was earlier) and after five. They're probably good against the accursed midges, anyway. Perhaps I'll take up wearing one on lake walks, see if it works.

Subject: RE: BS: Johnson shows his colours (again)
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 08 Aug 18 - 07:47 AM

I think the source is Here

But I don't believe that makes it an accurate view of the situation.

From Here

Judges said the nationwide prohibition, which came into effect in 2011, did not violate the rights to private and family life and freedom of religion, or discrimination laws.
The court found Belgium had the right to impose restrictions aiming to ensure the principles of “living together” and the “protection of the rights and freedoms of others”.

The ECHR upholding the right of Belgium imposing a ban is not the same as insisting that other states must impose a ban.

Subject: RE: BS: Johnson shows his colours (again)
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 08 Aug 18 - 07:27 AM

"Following the landmark ECHR ruling upholding the French and Belgian ban on all public face-masking, the UK must now follow suit by outlawing all garments, including balaclavas, hoodies, etc that obscure or conceal an individual's identity."

And your source is...??

Subject: RE: BS: Johnson shows his colours (again)
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 08 Aug 18 - 07:18 AM

Johnson isn't an idiot and he is not even necessarily a xenophobe. He is a dangerous, calculating, power-hungry popularist, playing to the xenophobic gallery.

Subject: RE: BS: Johnson shows his colours (again)
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 08 Aug 18 - 07:17 AM

Thank you, Jim for proving my point that you are commenting without having read the article:

From: Jim Carroll - PM
Date: 08 Aug 18 - 06:39 AM

"I haven't excused it."
Yes you have Nigel - you have tried to make a racist comment a virtue by comparing it to the Scandinavian ban
Johnson only made this comparison when he realised he was in trouble - he has refused to withdraw it

No! The whole article was in response to the Danish ban on the burka, and saying that we should not even consider implementing a ban here.

My previous post was working on the assumption people hadn't read the whole article, but you have proved my point.

Subject: RE: BS: Johnson shows his colours (again)
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 08 Aug 18 - 07:01 AM

Boris doesn't have backbone. He bears the imprint of the last person to sit on him. Recently this has been Murdoch and Dacre, but he will back down this time in the face of May. And someone who is scared of May can't be described as having backbone.

Subject: RE: BS: Johnson shows his colours (again)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Aug 18 - 06:39 AM

"I haven't excused it."
Yes you have Nigel - you have tried to make a racist comment a virtue by comparing it to the Scandinavian ban
Johnson only made this comparison when he realised he was in trouble - he has refused to withdraw it
He has linked women wearing Burkas with criminality by suggesting they look like "bank robbers"
Anothor of his Tory colleague has gone even further, supporting him, she has linked them with clothing used to cover up domestic violence
A complaint has now been made to the police suggesting it was a hate crime
May, when asked whether his statement was criminal, evaded the question
Your party is a maggot's nest off racists
THis, of course, has long been the case
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Johnson shows his colours (again)
From: Thompson
Date: 08 Aug 18 - 06:27 AM

Telling women what to do and what to wear is a popular pastime.

Interesting piece in the New Statesman - I'm not sure if the internet's rapid shrinking into a series of my-country-only islands will stop people outside some small pool from reading this. If so, it's by Paul Mason, who suggests that people like Boris Johnson (and before him Enoch Powell and Margaret Thatcher) are tools of others with an agenda to cause race hatred.
Quote from the article: "Johnson may have calculated that it was better to express mild Islamophobia in order to head off its more extreme forms; to own xenophobia and racism within the Tory party as a way of preventing more violent and extreme expressions of it.
"If so, he was only following the same catastrophic impulse that led Enoch Powell to make his “rivers of blood” speech in 1968, and Margaret Thatcher to express her concern that the country was being “swamped by people with a different culture” ten years later. On both occasions, the use of the racist dog whistle was sold as a way of isolating and defeating fascism; both fed it."
I couldn't personally agree that Boris Johnson is "Someone with a bit of backbone" - he seems to change with the wind.

Subject: RE: BS: Johnson shows his colours (again)
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 08 Aug 18 - 06:16 AM

I haven't excused it.
I have pointed out that the general thrust of his article was in favour of allowing women to dress as they wished. But most of the comments seem to be from people who've read the backlash against two very small parts of the article without bothering to actually read the article.

Subject: RE: BS: Johnson shows his colours (again)
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 08 Aug 18 - 06:04 AM

Even Baroness Warsi isn't trying to excuse the inexcusable that you'rea excusing, Nigel.

Subject: RE: BS: Johnson shows his colours (again)
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 08 Aug 18 - 06:03 AM

Oh, come on, Nigel! Whatever his intention there is no need to be insulting about a woman's choice of clothing. Are you also going to try to excuse his piccanninies and water melon smile remarks?

Johnson gaffes

Maybe he was just trying to make things better for Africa?

Subject: RE: BS: Johnson shows his colours (again)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Aug 18 - 05:54 AM

Several years ago a leading British Muslim accused the Government of "having a serios problem of Islamophobia within its ranks"
Unlike other parties that have had similar actions made against them, nothing whatever was done.
Johnson's "message" appears to be than nothing ever will be - it is now part of Government psyche and fully acceptable when displayed by leading Tories
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Johnson shows his colours (again)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Aug 18 - 05:42 AM

It seems to have been forgotten that there is a oung woman journalist languishing in an Iranian prison thanks to Johnson's stating publicly that she was a political activist reather than a journalist
JOHNSON'S VICTIM
Perhaps Britain should offer an exchange of prisoners and do us all a favour?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Johnson shows his colours (again)
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 08 Aug 18 - 05:17 AM

It's unfortunate that his use of these two descriptions has interfered with the message his article was conveying.

Anyone reading the whole article could hardly consider it Islamophobic, but I know that many here will be happy to jump on a bash Boris bandwagon.

Boris was disagreeing with the Danish move to ban the burka. He made it quite clear that wearing the burka, or niqab, in public should be the personal choice of the wearer, and that UK should not follow the actions of some parts of the EU in attempting to impose a ban.

Subject: RE: BS: Johnson shows his colours (again)
From: Peter the Squeezer
Date: 08 Aug 18 - 04:46 AM

What are the opposition doing about it?

Labour is currently into navel gazing, and the electorate will not forget that the Lib-Dems got into bed with Cameron's lot.

We only have to look back less than two years ago to see the decision the citizens of the US collectively made, when faced with the choice between corruption and bigotry.

Boris's remarks say more about him that they say about his targets. He is, and always has been, an attention-seeking opportunist, who will jump on the bandwagon of any populist cause which will give him publicity.

Sadly Dave, you are right. The life forms from the extreme right have been crawling out from beneath their stones in the UK for some time now, and some of the British people seem incapable of avoiding becoming addicted to their poison.

Subject: RE: BS: Johnson shows his colours (again)
From: The Sandman
Date: 07 Aug 18 - 04:10 PM

What poor calibre the conservative party has to offer

Subject: RE: BS: Johnson shows his colours (again)
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 07 Aug 18 - 03:26 PM

The man may act like an idiot but he is gathering support amongst the increasing number of racists and little Englanders. Farage did it. Johnson is trying the same trick. Hopefully enough people see through it but sadly, looking at some posts on here, we could have stepped back to Germany between the wars.

Subject: RE: BS: Johnson shows his colours (again)
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 07 Aug 18 - 03:20 PM

Theresa May will never get rid of anybody, to do so would be to admit she was wrong in the first place, and no matter how bad or stupid they are she dare not upset anyone in her government.

She is a very weak leader, no guts at all.

Dave H

Subject: RE: BS: Johnson shows his colours (again)
From: Raggytash
Date: 07 Aug 18 - 02:23 PM

If this was a one-off occurrence Jack, I may have agreed with you. However Johnson has a track record of such remarks and similar "gaffes"

But they are not "gaffes" they have serious consequences.

Subject: RE: BS: Johnson shows his colours (again)
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 07 Aug 18 - 01:18 PM

I mentioned it in the Bookshop Hooligans thread, but my post has been removed by the mods. I strongly suspect that, in contrast to their behaviour with regard to the Labour Party and anti-semitism, the MSM won't use this as a reason to speculate on the extent of the Conservative Party's institutional islamophobia.

Subject: RE: BS: Johnson shows his colours (again)
From: Jack Campin
Date: 07 Aug 18 - 01:06 PM

"Complete moron" is maybe nearer the mark than "xenophobe". In context, it looks like he was making a half-arsed attempt at saying something fairly harmless.

Subject: RE: BS: Johnson shows his colours (again)
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 Aug 18 - 12:46 PM

They're far more likely to make him their next leader.

Subject: BS: Johnson shows his colours (again)
From: Raggytash
Date: 07 Aug 18 - 12:41 PM

I'm surprised that no-one has yet commented on Johnson latest gaffe, he compared women wearing Birkas to letteboxes and suggest they looked like bank robbers.

Now this wasn't in the "heat" of an interview, this was in his comment page in the Daily Telegraph, he had time to consider what he was writing.

Only a complete moron or xenophobe would make such remarks, it's time to Conservative Party got rid of him.