BS: Johnson shows his colours (again)

Subject: BS: Johnson shows his colours (again)
From: Raggytash
Date: 07 Aug 18 - 12:41 PM

I'm surprised that no-one has yet commented on Johnson latest gaffe, he compared women wearing Birkas to letteboxes and suggest they looked like bank robbers.

Now this wasn't in the "heat" of an interview, this was in his comment page in the Daily Telegraph, he had time to consider what he was writing.

Only a complete moron or xenophobe would make such remarks, it's time to Conservative Party got rid of him.

Subject: RE: BS: Johnson shows his colours (again)
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 Aug 18 - 12:46 PM

They're far more likely to make him their next leader.

Subject: RE: BS: Johnson shows his colours (again)
From: Jack Campin
Date: 07 Aug 18 - 01:06 PM

"Complete moron" is maybe nearer the mark than "xenophobe". In context, it looks like he was making a half-arsed attempt at saying something fairly harmless.

Subject: RE: BS: Johnson shows his colours (again)
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 07 Aug 18 - 01:18 PM

I mentioned it in the Bookshop Hooligans thread, but my post has been removed by the mods. I strongly suspect that, in contrast to their behaviour with regard to the Labour Party and anti-semitism, the MSM won't use this as a reason to speculate on the extent of the Conservative Party's institutional islamophobia.

Subject: RE: BS: Johnson shows his colours (again)
From: Raggytash
Date: 07 Aug 18 - 02:23 PM

If this was a one-off occurrence Jack, I may have agreed with you. However Johnson has a track record of such remarks and similar "gaffes"

But they are not "gaffes" they have serious consequences.

Subject: RE: BS: Johnson shows his colours (again)
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 07 Aug 18 - 03:20 PM

Theresa May will never get rid of anybody, to do so would be to admit she was wrong in the first place, and no matter how bad or stupid they are she dare not upset anyone in her government.

She is a very weak leader, no guts at all.

Dave H

Subject: RE: BS: Johnson shows his colours (again)
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 07 Aug 18 - 03:26 PM

The man may act like an idiot but he is gathering support amongst the increasing number of racists and little Englanders. Farage did it. Johnson is trying the same trick. Hopefully enough people see through it but sadly, looking at some posts on here, we could have stepped back to Germany between the wars.

Subject: RE: BS: Johnson shows his colours (again)
From: The Sandman
Date: 07 Aug 18 - 04:10 PM

What poor calibre the conservative party has to offer

Subject: RE: BS: Johnson shows his colours (again)
From: Peter the Squeezer
Date: 08 Aug 18 - 04:46 AM

What are the opposition doing about it?

Labour is currently into navel gazing, and the electorate will not forget that the Lib-Dems got into bed with Cameron's lot.

We only have to look back less than two years ago to see the decision the citizens of the US collectively made, when faced with the choice between corruption and bigotry.

Boris's remarks say more about him that they say about his targets. He is, and always has been, an attention-seeking opportunist, who will jump on the bandwagon of any populist cause which will give him publicity.

Sadly Dave, you are right. The life forms from the extreme right have been crawling out from beneath their stones in the UK for some time now, and some of the British people seem incapable of avoiding becoming addicted to their poison.

Subject: RE: BS: Johnson shows his colours (again)
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 08 Aug 18 - 05:17 AM

It's unfortunate that his use of these two descriptions has interfered with the message his article was conveying.

Anyone reading the whole article could hardly consider it Islamophobic, but I know that many here will be happy to jump on a bash Boris bandwagon.

Boris was disagreeing with the Danish move to ban the burka. He made it quite clear that wearing the burka, or niqab, in public should be the personal choice of the wearer, and that UK should not follow the actions of some parts of the EU in attempting to impose a ban.

Subject: RE: BS: Johnson shows his colours (again)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Aug 18 - 05:42 AM

It seems to have been forgotten that there is a oung woman journalist languishing in an Iranian prison thanks to Johnson's stating publicly that she was a political activist reather than a journalist
JOHNSON'S VICTIM
Perhaps Britain should offer an exchange of prisoners and do us all a favour?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Johnson shows his colours (again)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Aug 18 - 05:54 AM

Several years ago a leading British Muslim accused the Government of "having a serios problem of Islamophobia within its ranks"
Unlike other parties that have had similar actions made against them, nothing whatever was done.
Johnson's "message" appears to be than nothing ever will be - it is now part of Government psyche and fully acceptable when displayed by leading Tories
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Johnson shows his colours (again)
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 08 Aug 18 - 06:03 AM

Oh, come on, Nigel! Whatever his intention there is no need to be insulting about a woman's choice of clothing. Are you also going to try to excuse his piccanninies and water melon smile remarks?

Johnson gaffes

Maybe he was just trying to make things better for Africa?

Subject: RE: BS: Johnson shows his colours (again)
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 08 Aug 18 - 06:04 AM

Even Baroness Warsi isn't trying to excuse the inexcusable that you'rea excusing, Nigel.

Subject: RE: BS: Johnson shows his colours (again)
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 08 Aug 18 - 06:16 AM

I haven't excused it.
I have pointed out that the general thrust of his article was in favour of allowing women to dress as they wished. But most of the comments seem to be from people who've read the backlash against two very small parts of the article without bothering to actually read the article.

Subject: RE: BS: Johnson shows his colours (again)
From: Thompson
Date: 08 Aug 18 - 06:27 AM

Telling women what to do and what to wear is a popular pastime.

Interesting piece in the New Statesman - I'm not sure if the internet's rapid shrinking into a series of my-country-only islands will stop people outside some small pool from reading this. If so, it's by Paul Mason, who suggests that people like Boris Johnson (and before him Enoch Powell and Margaret Thatcher) are tools of others with an agenda to cause race hatred.
Quote from the article: "Johnson may have calculated that it was better to express mild Islamophobia in order to head off its more extreme forms; to own xenophobia and racism within the Tory party as a way of preventing more violent and extreme expressions of it.
"If so, he was only following the same catastrophic impulse that led Enoch Powell to make his “rivers of blood” speech in 1968, and Margaret Thatcher to express her concern that the country was being “swamped by people with a different culture” ten years later. On both occasions, the use of the racist dog whistle was sold as a way of isolating and defeating fascism; both fed it."
I couldn't personally agree that Boris Johnson is "Someone with a bit of backbone" - he seems to change with the wind.

Subject: RE: BS: Johnson shows his colours (again)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Aug 18 - 06:39 AM

"I haven't excused it."
Yes you have Nigel - you have tried to make a racist comment a virtue by comparing it to the Scandinavian ban
Johnson only made this comparison when he realised he was in trouble - he has refused to withdraw it
He has linked women wearing Burkas with criminality by suggesting they look like "bank robbers"
Anothor of his Tory colleague has gone even further, supporting him, she has linked them with clothing used to cover up domestic violence
A complaint has now been made to the police suggesting it was a hate crime
May, when asked whether his statement was criminal, evaded the question
Your party is a maggot's nest off racists
THis, of course, has long been the case
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Johnson shows his colours (again)
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 08 Aug 18 - 07:01 AM

Boris doesn't have backbone. He bears the imprint of the last person to sit on him. Recently this has been Murdoch and Dacre, but he will back down this time in the face of May. And someone who is scared of May can't be described as having backbone.

Subject: RE: BS: Johnson shows his colours (again)
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 08 Aug 18 - 07:17 AM

Thank you, Jim for proving my point that you are commenting without having read the article:

From: Jim Carroll - PM
Date: 08 Aug 18 - 06:39 AM

"I haven't excused it."
Yes you have Nigel - you have tried to make a racist comment a virtue by comparing it to the Scandinavian ban
Johnson only made this comparison when he realised he was in trouble - he has refused to withdraw it

No! The whole article was in response to the Danish ban on the burka, and saying that we should not even consider implementing a ban here.

My previous post was working on the assumption people hadn't read the whole article, but you have proved my point.

Subject: RE: BS: Johnson shows his colours (again)
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 08 Aug 18 - 07:18 AM

Johnson isn't an idiot and he is not even necessarily a xenophobe. He is a dangerous, calculating, power-hungry popularist, playing to the xenophobic gallery.

Subject: RE: BS: Johnson shows his colours (again)
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 08 Aug 18 - 07:27 AM

"Following the landmark ECHR ruling upholding the French and Belgian ban on all public face-masking, the UK must now follow suit by outlawing all garments, including balaclavas, hoodies, etc that obscure or conceal an individual's identity."

And your source is...??

Subject: RE: BS: Johnson shows his colours (again)
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 08 Aug 18 - 07:47 AM

I think the source is Here

But I don't believe that makes it an accurate view of the situation.

From Here

Judges said the nationwide prohibition, which came into effect in 2011, did not violate the rights to private and family life and freedom of religion, or discrimination laws.
The court found Belgium had the right to impose restrictions aiming to ensure the principles of “living together” and the “protection of the rights and freedoms of others”.

The ECHR upholding the right of Belgium imposing a ban is not the same as insisting that other states must impose a ban.

Subject: RE: BS: Johnson shows his colours (again)
From: Thompson
Date: 08 Aug 18 - 07:49 AM

The source of that quote is a change.org petition. But come to think of it, that's a good point - if Boris objects to letterboxlike ladies' wear, does he also object to balaclavas, hoodies, etc? Twill be a cold winter for the noses of hardy British cyclists if so!

I might say that I'm no fan at all of face-coverings, but I'd be of the opinion that the best way to make girls want to wear something is to ban it.

Incidentally, I was invited to dine the other night in a lovely balti place, and the chatty owner told me that those face veils are used in northern India as a way of sheltering from too much sun. I don't know about that - wearing black doesn't seem like a good idea in high sun - but she also said that in the kind of heat they get there, people only go outdoors before noon (or maybe it was earlier) and after five. They're probably good against the accursed midges, anyway. Perhaps I'll take up wearing one on lake walks, see if it works.

Subject: RE: BS: Johnson shows his colours (again)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Aug 18 - 07:52 AM

I read what you wrote and described exactly what you are doing here - you are playing own the significance of Johnson's (The man Who Would be King's) serial racism - he should have been pilloried for this years ago; instead they appointed him Foreign Secretary - two fingers to a decent society, if ever there was one
"He is a dangerous, calculating, power-hungry popularist, playing to the xenophobic gallery."
There's that as well - but deep down, he's a racist bigot
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Johnson shows his colours (again)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Aug 18 - 08:04 AM

playing to the xenophobic gallery.

If he wanted to do that he would have supported the Danish ban and called for it here.
Apart from those two insulting comparisons his whole argument was that no-one had the right to tell women what to wear.

Bans are in place against the veil in France, Belgium, Netherlands, Austria, Denmark, Bulgaria and the German state of Bavaria, all countries that most here want ever closer union with!

Subject: RE: BS: Johnson shows his colours (again)
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 08 Aug 18 - 08:26 AM

Once again a thread falls into the usual barrage of minutiae rather than addressing the issue.

To bring music into it maybe we should post the words for 'here we go again' or, more likely 'Goodbyeeee'

Johnson is a power hungry chancer who will stop at nothing to get to the top. Heaven help us if he does.

Subject: RE: BS: Johnson shows his colours (again)
From: Senoufou
Date: 08 Aug 18 - 08:33 AM

I agree with Keith. Johnson's point was that, despite looking bizarre (cheap joke about letterboxes, which I found quite funny actually) women should not be told what they can or can't wear here in UK.

It seemed to me to be heartening in its tolerance of religious foibles, and supportive of women, not condemnatory of Muslims. He just likes cracking rather off-colour jokes; ill-advised but not, I think, indicative of any innate racism.

In the African countries I've visited (I know Iains has travelled widely there too) most Muslim women do not cover their faces in burkas or anything else. In Cote d'Ivoire, (in the city of Abidjan, not the countryside) one sees the odd lady in full black attire (burka), and even wearing black gloves in the intense heat. The other Muslim women find this silly and unnecessary.

It's quite true that there is nothing in the Koran (which I've read in translation from cover to cover) regarding covering the face. It talks merely about modesty.

Subject: RE: BS: Johnson shows his colours (again)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Aug 18 - 08:37 AM

Thanks Senoufou.

Subject: RE: BS: Johnson shows his colours (again)
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 08 Aug 18 - 08:46 AM

My favourite TV sports are, in no particular order, Boxing, Rugby, Sumo Wrestling,
and Tory Ministerial Leadership Contest Backstabbing...

Our tories - loathe 'em or hate 'em - are world class champion backstabbers
when they get a sniff that their leader is weak and off guard...

That last championship match between Gove and Johnson was an epic backstab to remember for all time...

So looking forward to this latest tournament of no holds barred Machiavellian jostling for position
and treachery from our best match ready tory competitors...

Watch it while it's still free to view on the BBC and ITV...

...sod Sky and BT Sports if they ever get their greedy hands on it...

Subject: RE: BS: Johnson shows his colours (again)
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 08 Aug 18 - 08:49 AM

"I always verify my facts before posting. Others should take up the practice."

When quoting, its best practice to give the source. Without an indication of the source of your quote - or better still, a working link (blue clicky) to that quote - it's nothing more than, as Nigel would say, "your opinion, with no basis in fact". If you're too lazy to give your sources as a matter of good practice, it shouldn't come as a surprise when you're asked to provide them.

It's not rocket science, it's Composition Class 101.

Subject: RE: BS: Johnson shows his colours (again)
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 08 Aug 18 - 08:54 AM

Thanks Eliza.

It's good to see that someone else seems to have actually read the article that's being discussed, rather than just the headlines that others have generated about it.

Subject: RE: BS: Johnson shows his colours (again)
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 08 Aug 18 - 08:54 AM

He just likes cracking rather off-colour jokes; ill-advised but not, I think, indicative of any innate racism.

So you are quite happy with his 'off-colour jokes' about Africa and Africans then Eliza? You do surprise me. To save you going back and following the link I provided here is part of his article criticising Tony Blair.

What a relief it must be for Blair to get out of England. It is said that the Queen has come to love the Commonwealth, partly because it supplies her with regular cheering crowds of flag-waving piccaninnies; and one can imagine that Blair, twice victor abroad but enmired at home, is similarly seduced by foreign politeness.

They say he is shortly off to the Congo. No doubt the AK47s will fall silent, and the pangas will stop their hacking of human flesh, and the tribal warriors will all break out in watermelon smiles to see the big white chief touch down in his big white British taxpayer-funded bird.

Bear in mind this was an article in a the Spectator, just as his latest 'ill-advised' rant was in his column in the Telegraph. These were thought out, planned remarks, not off the cuff comments to his Bullingdon club mates.

The man should have no place in modern day politics.

Subject: RE: BS: Johnson shows his colours (again)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Aug 18 - 08:58 AM

What Johnson actually said, (the bits ignored by detractors)
"So I was a bit surprised to see that on August 1 the Danes joined several other European countries – France, Germany, Austria, Belgium – in imposing a ban on the niqab and the burka – those items of Muslim head-gear that obscure the female face. Already a fine of 1000 kroner – about £120 – has been imposed on a 28-year-old woman seen wearing a niqab in a shopping centre in the north eastern town of Horsholm. A scuffle broke out as someone tried to rip it off her head. There have been demonstrations, on both sides of the argument. What has happened, you may ask, to the Danish spirit of live and let live?"

"I am against a total ban because it is inevitably construed – rightly or wrongly – as being intended to make some point about Islam. If you go for a total ban, you play into the hands of those who want to politicise and dramatise the so-called clash of civilisations; and you fan the flames of grievance. "
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2018/08/05/denmark-has-got-wrong-yes-burka-oppressive-ridiculous-still/

Subject: RE: BS: Johnson shows his colours (again)
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 08 Aug 18 - 08:58 AM

And Nigel, for what it is worth, I have read the article and even if it is well meaning, which I doubt as Johnson is primarily self serving, it that does not excuse his derision of the dress sense of certain women.

Subject: RE: BS: Johnson shows his colours (again)
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 08 Aug 18 - 09:16 AM

Dave,
It would take someone better than myself to be able to claim never to have derided the dress sense of a woman:
"mutton dressed as lamb"
"She shouldn't wear stripes" etc.

As for the other quotes from the Spectator, if you need to go back to 2002 to find something suitably offensive, is it possible he has refined his language in the meantime?

Subject: RE: BS: Johnson shows his colours (again)
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 08 Aug 18 - 09:23 AM

Nogel, neither you nor I are in Johnsons position of power or write in either the Spectator or the Telegraph.

If you like I can find plenty of other 'ill-advised' statements of his from more recently so, no, he has not refined his language.

This lot are from his time as foreign secretary over the last 2 years.

Subject: RE: BS: Johnson shows his colours (again)
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 08 Aug 18 - 09:24 AM

Sorry for the typo.

Subject: RE: BS: Johnson shows his colours (again)
From: peteglasgow
Date: 08 Aug 18 - 09:53 AM

with the exception of senoufou above all commentators i have heard (from the radio and on here) on what asian women should choose to wear have been from middle aged white (presumably-what colour gnome are you, dave?) men. i'd be interested to know what are the views of women who are directly affected by the question and the comments of b johnson and others.

(while of course we can never judge someone entirely on appearances - why do we give any credibility to the likes of johnson, gove, IDS, rees-moog etc. all of them look weird and likely criminals in their expensive suits. in my experience it's the men (and a few women )in suits that you have to watch out for and are most likely to be in the business of stealing from ordinary folk for their own gain)

Subject: RE: BS: Johnson shows his colours (again)
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 08 Aug 18 - 10:30 AM

with the exception of senoufou above all commentators i have heard (from the radio and on here) on what asian women should choose to wear have been from middle aged white (presumably-what colour gnome are you, dave?) men. i'd be interested to know what are the views of women who are directly affected by the question and the comments of b johnson and others.

But if the burka is a symbol of subjugation of Islamic women by the men, then surely these women are the one group who will least be able (or allowed) to express themselves.

Subject: RE: BS: Johnson shows his colours (again)
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 08 Aug 18 - 10:44 AM

anyway... what about ghosts..

should they be expected to remove their sheets under any ban...???

who really wants to see their scary faces in public...

Subject: RE: BS: Johnson shows his colours (again)
From: Senoufou
Date: 08 Aug 18 - 10:57 AM

Dave, our next-door neighbour is always cracking 'off-colour jokes' at the expense of my black husband. He asked him to grin outside in the dark (no street lights here) or he wouldn't see him coming. When we get back from the supermarket, he sometimes asks if he's been to get his consignment of bananas. He gave him a birthday card with a gorilla on the front.
My husband thinks all this is hilarious (so do I) and we're neither of us offended at all. The same neighbour and his wife have been in to help us on many occasions; once or twice we wouldn't have known what to do without their kindness. We're very, very fond of them both.

I sincerely don't believe Johnson meant anything much by his silly jokes. It was, as I said, a bit ill-advised (as Theresa May pointed out) but the end of his pronouncement was in favour of freedom of Muslim women to wear whatever they wish. An admirable sentiment in my opinion.

Subject: RE: BS: Johnson shows his colours (again)
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 08 Aug 18 - 11:39 AM

The perennially popular "Love Thy Neighbour" boxset and movie are still available to buy on DVD...

just saying...

Subject: RE: BS: Johnson shows his colours (again)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Aug 18 - 11:54 AM

Sorry Sen
If you believe that "off-colour jokes" are permissible from leading members of the Government, that we occupy different 'right and wrong' areas
An ex foreign secretary and aspiring Prime Minister who refers to "watermelon smiles" and compares traditional religious dress to "letter boxes" and "bank raiders" - c'mon!!
Perhaps the Tories should have apponted Bernard Manning Prime Minister when they had the chance
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Johnson shows his colours (again)
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 08 Aug 18 - 11:58 AM

Roy Chubby Brown is still available...

Subject: RE: BS: Johnson shows his colours (again)
From: Raggytash
Date: 08 Aug 18 - 12:08 PM

Senoufou, I'd be inclined to have a very quiet word with my neighbour if I were you.

I suspect he is elderly and possibly doesn't realise that some people could take offense.

My Father who died over 30 years ago was a good man, he would help anyone at any time, irrespective of creed or colour, but he sometimes
made what I cosidered to be racist remarks which we argued about, sometimes vehemently.

I do not consider him to have been a racist but his comments were not acceptable in the 1980's and they are would certainly not be considered accepatble today.

In his position as a Member of Parliament and supposably a well educate man Johnson DOES know better, however he opens his mouth without thinking.

On this, and other occasions, he had the time to consider his remarks and the effect they would have and I can only assume he is a boorish oaf.

Subject: RE: ks BS: Johnson shows his colours (again)
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 08 Aug 18 - 12:33 PM

I looked for links for latest research into what ghosts faces look like under their sheets,
but Google Assist AI told me it was too stupid and to stop wasting her time...

I replied it was for a serious discussion on mudcat,
but she just laughed scornfully in a robotic cackle
and told me to go away in language
I will not repeat here...

Subject: RE: BS: Johnson shows his colours (again)
From: Senoufou
Date: 08 Aug 18 - 01:41 PM

My husband is an intelligent and aware person. If he were at all offended by anyone's remarks, he's more than capable of objecting on his own behalf.
But he's not offended. It's just banter, and he actually enjoys it.
He's insightful enough to know what their true feelings are, and that they like him enormously.

They aren't elderly at all, they're aged about 50 (much younger than us!).

I do wish people would let the so-called 'victims of racism' defend themselves if they want to. It's belittling to assume they're too weak to speak.

Subject: RE: BS: Johnson shows his colours (again)
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 08 Aug 18 - 02:04 PM

Sen - If you search youtube for "Curry and Chips" [6 episodes]...

you should find a prime example of 'robust' racist
banter between characters who can barely tolerate each other
but are factory work mates..

This was considered too unacceptable even in 1968...

..and unbroadcastable now 50 years later...

It was not however crass bigoted mainstream sit-com humour,
but intended as anarchic satire from the pens of Johnny Speight and Spike Milligan...

The satire proved too clever for unsophisticated audiences who took the humour at face value
as a reflection of normal British culture...
I can vouch for that, as I was 9 watching it with my provincial council estate family...

...As Boris demonstrates, this issue is all too complex even in our 'more enlightened' 21st century Britain...

As long as your husband gives back as good as he gets and takes the piss out of honky next door...

[we were also big fans of Love Thy Neighbour...]

Subject: RE: BS: Johnson shows his colours (again)
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 08 Aug 18 - 02:06 PM

Your next door neighbour has an audience of 2, Eliza. Johnson has an audience of millions. Your neighbour knows you will not take offence. Johnson knows that some people will and is purposely provocative to further his own ends. I know you are an intelligent person and will be very surprised if you cannot see the difference. The fact that he is a leading member of your chosen party should not be an excuse for gross insensitivity.

One of your colleagues on here refers to those to the left of the political spectrum as leftards and calls another intelligent woman Abbototamus because of her weight and ethnic background. Would you excuse that as well?

Subject: RE: BS: Johnson shows his colours (again)
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 08 Aug 18 - 02:17 PM

Johnson is a lying shit of the worst order.