BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations

Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: keberoxu
Date: 07 Mar 19 - 11:54 AM

How good is your French? If it's good enough,
you can read the link to "Le Progrès,"
which offers some direct courts from
a French-language transcript of the Lyon trial,
in particular the judge's decision of

a guilty verdict for Cardinal Barbarin.

Barbarin announced that he will resign as archbishop of Lyon.

Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: Joe Offer
Date: 07 Mar 19 - 01:22 AM

I don't expect ollaimh to actually read any of those articles I linked to, but he might be able to speak from a position of knowledge if he did. Here's an excerpt from one of those articles - from a Catholic newspaper:

The truth is there are some very sick men in the priesthood that need very serious help and there are some men in the priesthood who are so psychosexually immature or damaged that they have no place in ministry. And the closed, secretive, all-male power structure of the church protected these men and gravely exacerbated the situation.

Satan did not swoop in and use these men as his tools to destroy the church. These men destroyed it all by themselves by enforcing a warped view of sexuality, making the preservation of their patriarchal rule their first priority and trading in cover-ups, lies and institutional blackmail.

But while Francis set out to boldly slay metaphysical dragons, his army of prelates slouched through a four-day slog.

The cardinals, archbishops and other high-ranking clergymen who appeared at the summit's daily press briefings looked at turns exhausted by the weight and bleakness of the situation, embarrassed by their obvious incompetence, confounded by some of their peers' refusal to see why sex abuse is a problem, and generally adrift in the cesspool they have created. It was so dismal that Satan didn't need to creep into the picture.

Survivors and their advocates were right to be disappointed that their basic demands were not met, but anyone listening to these press briefings would not have been surprised. Since all question-and-answer dialogues and working group sessions were off-limits to the press, our only insights into the inner workings of the meeting came from off-the-cuff remarks at these press conferences.

And these comments gave the distinct impression that the bishops who traveled to Rome were nowhere near ready to take action.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: keberoxu
Date: 06 Mar 19 - 08:06 PM

Mere hours until the verdict in Lyon on
Barbarin and about five others.

Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: ollaimh
Date: 06 Mar 19 - 03:00 AM

such interesting articles on child rape, so interesting. a policy will be interesting as well. we can all rest easy that the truly evil have interesting policies and read interesting articles.

Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: Rapparee
Date: 04 Mar 19 - 10:08 PM

Scicluna.

Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: Joe Offer
Date: 04 Mar 19 - 05:33 PM

The National Catholic Reporter (click) is one of my favorite Catholic publications, and it has been reporting the sex abuse crisis almost weekly since 1983. It has an interesting collection of articles that follow up on the recent summit on sexual abuse of children. I think the summit was meant to lay the groundwork for a comprehensive policy, and I expect a "zero tolerance" policy to come out within the next few months. If the end of the year comes and nothing has happened, then I think Pope Francis will have lost all credibility.

I don't put much stock in the attempt to get Roger Cardinal Mahony barred from speaking at the Los Angeles Religious Education Congress late in March. Since the 1970s, Mahony has been one of the most eloquent spokespersons for immigrant workers here in California. I have a ticket to hear his presentation, and I'm looking forward to it.

In the early days of the sex abuse scandal, Mahony dragged his feet and was reluctant to release personnel records and such. But he was one of the first to change course and assist in the criminal prosecution and church punishment of priests who were sex offenders. I think he's a good guy, although the conservatives have worked hard to smear him during his entire career.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: keberoxu
Date: 04 Mar 19 - 10:33 AM

Who is Archbishop Charles Scicluna?
He helped bring the Vatican conference on abuse about,
and he has publicly stated
that the mass media is to be thanked
for bringing the abuse to light.

Atlantic magazine

Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: mg
Date: 03 Mar 19 - 01:35 PM

he is a horrid man. His behavior towards victims was well k own and still pope brought him to vatican to run finances. Why.?? He was not a person with banking credentials afaik. I think it was to snatch him out of australia. Great outcry from oz. A song came out of pells awful behavior.

Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: ollaimh
Date: 02 Mar 19 - 11:29 PM

pell master minded the ellis defsnce, to wit, you can't sue the catholic church because they are not a leagl entity in autralia then he sued ellis for decades to harrass the victim of first sexual abuse, and then the church persecution. a truly monsterous and evil man.

but rose to the top because he stopped at nothing to attack those sexually abuse by the church as children. so another demon in the church of christ.

Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: keberoxu
Date: 02 Mar 19 - 10:54 AM

And even the right-wingers are conflicted
about Cardinal Mahony -- now there is a Mahony Petition out there

Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: keberoxu
Date: 02 Mar 19 - 10:45 AM

America magazine, Jesuits if I read right,
considers the Pell conviction.

"There are elements in the trial of Cardinal Pell that do not easily translate to a U. S. context."

Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: keberoxu
Date: 27 Feb 19 - 04:53 PM

If I read this right,
Pell's sentencing is in two weeks' time,
and he will spend those two weeks in prison,
the judge having revoked his bail.

Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: Rapparee
Date: 26 Feb 19 - 08:13 PM

Perhaps the auto de fe should return. After all, no one expects the Spanish Inquisition!

Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: mg
Date: 25 Feb 19 - 11:08 PM

One down, one of creepiest creeps to go down next. Human vermin and my sincere apologies to vermin.

Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: mg
Date: 25 Feb 19 - 11:05 PM

Lots of Errors. I can't see the screen on my cell phone to correct. Anyway about Pell being brought to the Vatican.

Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: mg
Date: 25 Feb 19 - 11:03 PM

The compass and totally disgusting Pell in Australia has just been convicted. Google news for up-to-date information
I knew about him being accused of something many years ago when he was a seminarian. I did not know about the more recent stuff. I know that he's been totally abusive cruel to victims and their families and I doubt that he tells the truth on All Occasions. He isn't arrogant totally disgusting man perhaps equals by the disgusting man in New York City who also has been cruel to victims. I do not know of any accusations against him with minors. Humanity just got a little bit safer and a little bit more on the right track. This is incredibly good news. I wrote to the pope and copied O'Malley about hell green Brock from Australia under great outcry from Australian to be the number 3 man at the Vatican, handling finances, he is not an international Banker, although he probably has a lot of Banking and Financial experience. But he was brought for some reason to the Vatican.

Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: olddude
Date: 25 Feb 19 - 11:02 PM

Cowboy justice for those creeps I think

Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: keberoxu
Date: 25 Feb 19 - 10:49 PM

The suppression/gag-order has been lifted on the Cardinal Pell verdict now.

guilty verdict

Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: Donuel
Date: 25 Feb 19 - 11:24 AM

The proud papal product from this week of awareness training is a handbook for clergy - 'How not to rape and sodomize children' depending upon your translation.

Bless their hearts

Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: Rapparee
Date: 25 Feb 19 - 10:08 AM

The Southern Baptists (see Jim Carroll's post of February 12), the Latter-Day Saints (Mormons), Anglican, Methodist, several Eastern churches (in which priests can marry, as they can in several instances in the Catholic Church's eastern synods and even the Roman church), and others have all been "shocked and surprised" by finding that sexual abuse is also there. Golly, who would have guessed? And that's just the Christian churches!

Here were I am it seems like every day the news has more sexual abuse reports about teachers, coaches, parents, babysitters, and others -- men AND women. And as we know it's not just an American problem for these religions or occupations or relationships.

But of course our thoughts and prayers are with the victims....

Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: Mossback
Date: 24 Feb 19 - 11:23 AM

Activists for survivors of clerical sexual abuse have reacted furiously after Pope Francis failed to promise a “zero tolerance” approach to paedophile priests and the bishops who cover up their crimes as he closed a landmark summit at the Vatican.

Anne Barrett Doyle, the co-founder of Bishop Accountability, which tracks clergy sex abuse cases, described the speech as “recycled rhetoric”.

“I am utterly stunned,” she told the Guardian. “The pope has undone the tiny bit of progress that possibly was achieved this week. He was defensive, rationalising that abuse happens in all sectors of society. Ironically and sadly, he exhibited no responsibility, no accountability and no transparency.”

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/feb/24/pope-francis-calls-for-all-out-battle-against-abuse-of-children

Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: Donuel
Date: 24 Feb 19 - 11:06 AM

Clergy crimes are considered to be sins that must be forgiven or dealt with internally by the 'hierarchy'.
Have clergy been guilty of sex abuse? embezzlement? murder? BUT not reported to police? of course they have.

I had a clergy like job and paid taxes and obeyed the law with no problem.

Why the fuck shouldn't they.

Instead of reporting criminals to God I think reporting criminals to police is and always should have been a no brainer.

How close will they come in these special Papal meetings to accepting local judicial authority???


Everything else here is just spin

Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Feb 19 - 08:13 AM

Stupid example of self harm by the Poe
Under attack by a bishop for allowing an expelled paedophile back into the hierarchy, he is now indulging in disgusting 'wataboutism' in trying to bail ot the church by claiming that there is more sexual abuse at home than there is in the Church
Of course there is, but family abusers don't carry out their crimes using God and the authority religion gives to the clerical abuser
They who the gods wish to destroy they first make mad
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Feb 19 - 09:10 AM

It is now being suggested that clerical abuse remains a threat and safeguards are needed to prevent it
No longer a historical issue
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: Joe Offer
Date: 22 Feb 19 - 04:51 PM

I get regular emails from a Catholic reform group called Call to Action. This morning's email gave a pretty good summary:

As the Vatican continues its four-day bishops' summit on dealing with sex abuse by priests, this stunning roundup by AP Vatican correspondent Nicole Winfield shows starkly that this is "a global problem that requires a global response":
• Argentina: Pope Francis' home country is beginning to see an eruption of the scandal, with some cases even implicating failures by the pontiff himself.
• Australia: A four-year national investigation found 4,444 people were abused at more than 1,000 Catholic institutions between 1980 and 2015. 7% of Catholic priests in Australia in 1950-2010 were accused of sexually abusing children.
• Chile: Chilean criminal prosecutors have staged a series of raids on the church's secret archives to seize documents. They have opened more than 100 investigations into abusive priests.
• Germany: The German Catholic Church concluded at least 3,677 people were abused by clergy between 1946 and 2014. More than half the victims were 13 or younger and most were boys. Every sixth case involved rape and at least 1,670 clergy were involved. 969 abuse victims were altar boys.
• Ireland: Tens of thousands of children suffered wide-ranging abuses in church-run workhouse-style institutions.
• U.S.: About 70 dioceses and religious orders have released lists of accused priests, according to BishopAccountability.org. Pennsylvania alone found 300 priests sexually abused at least 1,000 children since the 1940s. Prosecutors in more than a dozen states have opened similar investigations.

Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: Jack Campin
Date: 22 Feb 19 - 09:20 AM

I have no doubt that similar networks will be revealed in Protestant churches, in Buddhist and Hindu monasteries, in Moslem schools, as time goes on.

Catholicism is unique in having such a deep hierarchy - Muslim, Jewish and Buddhist education are locally organized, and most Protestant groups don't have many places they could transfer embarrassing employees to. There have been abuse scandals in the Haredi Jewish sect in London and to a lesser extent in Sunni Muslim medreses, but systematic coverups are harder to pull off. My yoga teacher as a kid (who was also a Protestant Sunday School teacher and a scoutmaster) ended up getting a jail sentence for a minor sexual offence, but he had no network behind him - and we kids all knew what he was up to, it was no surprise when he got done.

Hinduism has a gruesome record of child abuse in India. Buddhism rarely involves children in the West - there have been cases of sexually coercive sleaziness on the part of some leaders towards their adult followers, though.

Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Feb 19 - 08:18 AM

WHOLE AREAS YET TO BE EXPLORED
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: Donuel
Date: 22 Feb 19 - 07:27 AM

fortunately you guys win that argument.

Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: Thompson
Date: 22 Feb 19 - 12:52 AM

The idea of castration as a solution to rape assumes that rape is caused by uncontrollable sexual desire. It’s not. Rape is caused by uncontrolled power.

There is a whole network of enablement in the church rapes: the priests’ bosses, who transferred them and concealed their crimes, the hierarchy going right up to the Vatican who colluded in protecting the reputation of the Church by allowing violent, dangerous people free reign to rape (and I have no doubt sometimes kill) children, and the laity who were too deliberately blind or too frightened to even attempt to expose the rapes. Not to mention the Gardaí, who sent away the few who brought complaints with a flea in their ear.

I have no doubt that similar networks will be revealed in Protestant churches, in Buddhist and Hindu monasteries, in Moslem schools, as time goes on.

Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: Rapparee
Date: 21 Feb 19 - 11:11 PM

Sure, sure.

From Findlaw: Critics also question the effectiveness of surgical or chemical castration on sex offenders. Those subjected to castration may retain some sexual function. Even surgically castrated offenders have a small rate of recidivism. Furthermore, testosterone boosting drugs are available that can counteract the effects of castration.

Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: Donuel
Date: 21 Feb 19 - 06:51 PM

please rise for the Honorable Judge Swift Justice
Has the jury reached a unanimous verdict? Yes your honor. What is the verdict? In the count of child sexual abuse we find the Bishop guilty. The sentence is eunufiction. Bailiff, chop off his testicles! The bailiff presents 4 handcuffs a long cord and a huge cleaver. Those who do not want to witness the sentence may now exit the courtroom.
zip swoosh click click click click ow ow ow
WHACK
Let the punishment fit the crime and be a warning to others. This case is now closed.

Next case. There are no next cases.
GREAT

Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: Jack Campin
Date: 21 Feb 19 - 05:33 PM

And it's Poland's turn:

Gdansk bishop's statue pulled down

Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: mg
Date: 21 Feb 19 - 02:58 PM

It is super important for anyone with an interest in the catholic situation to read abuse tracker daily..especially now with the bishops meeting with the pope over this issue. More and more stuff pouring out, and I expect huge numbers of victims to come forward from developing countries. The pope starts out by saying people who constantly criticize the church are friends with the devil. Good job pope. On this issue the pope is worse than worthless..he is damaging and obstructionist. I will continue to constantly criticize..just found my baptismal certificate..signed by a notorious abuser...and I do not consider myself a friend of the devil.

Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: Donuel
Date: 21 Feb 19 - 08:42 AM

Its Draconian for a state to perform castration but I don't see what you see. It is up to the courts to determine cruel and unusual punishment. It is less cruel than execution.

Marduk (8th century BC): Assyrian chief eunuch, eponym of the year 798 BCE in an Assyrian eponym chronicle.[233]
Yariri (8th century BC): regent of Neo-Hittite Carchemish thought to likely be an eunuch.[24]
Aspamistres or Mithridates (5th century BCE): bodyguard of Xerxes I of Persia, and (with Artabanus) his murderer.
Artoxares: an envoy of Artaxerxes I and Darius II of Persia.
Bagoas (4th century BC): prime minister of king Artaxerxes III of Persia, and his assassin. (Bagoas is an old Persian word meaning eunuch.)
Bagoas (4th century BCE): a favorite of Alexander the Great. Influential in changing Alexander's attitude toward Persians and therefore in the king's policy decision to try to integrate the conquered peoples fully into his Empire as loyal subjects. He thereby paved the way for the relative success of Alexander's Seleucid successors and greatly enhanced the diffusion of Greek culture to the East.
Philetaerus (4th/3rd century BC): founder of the Attalid dynasty of Pergamum
Sima Qian (old romanization Ssu-ma Chi'en; 2nd/1st century BC): the first person to have practiced modern historiography – gathering and analyzing both primary and secondary sources in order to write his monumental history of the Chinese Empire.
Ganymedes (1st century BCE): highly capable adviser and general of Cleopatra VII's sister and rival, Princess Arsinoe. Unsuccessfully attacked Julius Caesar three times at Alexandria.
Pothinus (1st century BC): regent for pharaoh Ptolemy XII.
Sporus (1st century BC): an attractive Roman boy who was castrated by, and later married to, Emperor Nero
First millennium AD:

Unidentified eunuch of the Ethiopian court (1st century AD), described in The Acts of the Apostles (chapter 8). Philip the Evangelist, one of the original seven deacons, is directed by the Holy Spirit to catch up to the eunuch's chariot and hears him reading from the Book of Isaiah (chapter 53). Philip explained that the section prophesies Jesus' crucifixion, which Philip described to the eunuch. The eunuch was baptized shortly thereafter.
Cai Lun (old romanization Ts'ai Lun; 1st/2nd century AD): reasonable evidence exists to suggest that he was truly the inventor of paper. At the very least, he established the importance of paper and standardized its manufacture in the Chinese Empire.
Origen: early Christian theologian, allegedly castrated himself based on his reading of the Gospel of Matthew 19:12 (For there are eunuchs, who were born so from their mother's womb: and there are eunuchs, who were made so by men: and there are eunuchs, who have made themselves eunuchs for the kingdom of heaven. He that can take, let him take it.). Despite the fact that the early Christian theologian Tertullian wrote that Jesus was a eunuch, there is no corroboration in any other early source. (The Skoptsy did, however, believe it to be true.)[citation needed]
Eutropius (5th century): only eunuch known to have attained the highly distinguished and very influential position of Roman Consul.
Chrysaphius: chief minister of Eastern Roman Emperor Theodosius II, architect of imperial policy towards the Huns.
Narses (478–573): general of Byzantine emperor Justinian I, responsible for destroying the Ostrogoths in 552 at the Battle of Taginae in Italy and saving Rome for the empire.
Solomon: general and governor of Africa under Justinian I
Staurakios: chief associate and minister of the Byzantine empress Irene of Athens
Ignatius of Constantinople (799–877): twice Patriarch of Constantinople during troubled political times [847–858 and 867–877]. First absolutely unquestioned eunuch saint, recognized by both the Orthodox and Roman Churches. (There are a great many early saints who were probably eunuchs, though few either as influential nor unquestioned as to their castration.)
Yazaman al-Khadim (died 891): Emir of Tarsus and successful commander in the wars against Byzantium
Mu'nis al-Khadim (845/846–933/934): Commander-in-chief of the Abbasid armies between 908 and his death,
Joseph Bringas: chief minister of the Byzantine Empire under Romanos II (959-963).
Second millennium AD:

Jia Xian (c. 1010- c. 1070): Chinese mathematician, Invented the Jia Xian triangle for the calculation of square roots and cube roots.
Ly Thuong Kiet (1019–1105): general during the Lý Dynasty in Vietnam. Penned what is considered the first Vietnamese declaration of independence. Regarded as a Vietnamese national hero.
Pierre Abélard (1079–1142): French scholastic philosopher and theologian. Forcibly castrated by his girlfriend's uncle while in bed.
Malik Kafur (fl. 1296–1316): a eunuch slave who became a general in the army of Alauddin Khalji, ruler of the Delhi sultanate.
Zheng He (1371–1433): famous admiral who led huge Chinese fleets of exploration around the Indian Ocean.
Judar Pasha (late 16th century): a Spanish eunuch who became the head of the Moroccan invasion force into the Songhai Empire.
Kim Cheo Seon: one of the most famous eunuchs in Korean Joseon Dynasty, ably served kings in the Joseon dynasty. His life is now the subject of a historical drama in South Korea.
Mohammad Khan Qajar: chief of the Qajar tribe. He became the King/Shah of Persia in 1794 and established the Qajar dynasty.
Zhao Gao: favourite of Qin Shihuangdi, who plotted against Li Si (died 210 BC)
Zhang Rang: head of the infamous "10 Changshi" (Ten attendants) of Eastern Han Dynasty
Huang Hao: eunuch in the state of Shu; also appears in the Romance of the Three Kingdoms
Cen Hun: eunuch in the state of Wu during the Three Kingdoms Period
Gao Lishi: a loyal and trusted friend of Tang emperor Xuanzong
Le Van Duyet: famous 18th-century Vietnamese eunuch, military strategist and government official (not a true eunuch, he was born a hermaphrodite)
Senesino (1686–1758): Italian contralto castrato singer.
Farinelli (1705–1782): Italian soprano castrato singer.
Giusto Fernando Tenducci (c. 1736–1790): Italian soprano castrato singer.
Li Fuguo: The Tang eunuch who began another era of eunuch rule
Yu Chao'en: Tang eunuch who began his "career" as army supervisor
Wang Zhen: first Ming eunuch with much power, see Tumu Crisis
Gang Bing: patron saint of eunuchs in China who castrated himself to demonstrate his loyalty to the Yongle Emperor
Yishiha: admiral in charge of expeditions down the Amur River under the Yongle and Xuande Emperors
Liu Jin: a well-known eunuch despot, member of the Eight Tigers
Wei Zhongxian: most infamous eunuch in Chinese history
Wu Rui: a Chinese eunuch in Lê Dynasty Annam (Vietnam)
Li Lianying: a despotic eunuch of the Qing Dynasty
Thomas P. Corbett/Boston Corbett (1832 – presumed dead 1894): who killed John Wilkes Booth, the assassin of Abraham Lincoln, castrated himself to avoid temptation from prostitutes
Alessandro Moreschi (1858–1922), Italian castrato singer, the only one to make recordings.
Sun Yaoting (1902–1996): last surviving imperial eunuch of Chinese history

Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: Rapparee
Date: 18 Feb 19 - 08:56 PM

Um, if you study the history of eunuchs in every nation closely you will find that it is not much of a solution.

Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: Donuel
Date: 18 Feb 19 - 05:13 PM

Eunuchs are a perfectly good solution to certain social problems. Ask the Chinese.

Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: Rapparee
Date: 17 Feb 19 - 09:34 AM

I guess "defrocked" sounded too much like bullies pulling someone's pants down in the schoolyard.

Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Feb 19 - 09:29 AM

"laicized"

Whilst conceding that levity has no place in this thread, I should just like to thank you for the opportunity of adding this word to my lexicon!

Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Feb 19 - 05:56 AM

An article in this mornings Times by an abuse victim is headlined: "Who Knew About the Abuse" - They All Did"
That is the most condemning statement yet and if it is true, the implications are unimaginable
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: Rapparee
Date: 16 Feb 19 - 10:39 PM

It's Mr. McCarrick now -- he was laicized today.

Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: Rapparee
Date: 14 Feb 19 - 05:14 PM

Joe, a diocesan priest can be excardinated to serve in another diocese or even in another country. While far from common it is not unheard of. It seems to occur more frequently with member of religious orders than diocesan priests.

But extend the discussion to include the abuse of adults, male and female. Include those who are vulnerable, including the sick and handicapped.

I am coming to the conclusion that sexual abuse, whether by clerics, teachers, coaches, scout leaders, or anyone is caused not by a sex drive, but by a lust for and abuse of power, just a rape is.

Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: Joe Offer
Date: 14 Feb 19 - 03:45 PM

Most parish priests are diocesan priests, who serve their entire careers in one particular geographic diocese. They are rarely transferred to other dioceses, so they are unlikely to transfer across state lines. Religious order priests belong to provinces, which can cover several states or an entire nation, so they can be transferred anywhere within the province.

So, for diocesan priests, the "employer" is the bishop of that particular diocese. For religious orders, the "employer" is the provincial (leader) of that particular province.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: ollaimh
Date: 14 Feb 19 - 03:33 PM

john p makes an excellent point. not only have the kept transfering sex offender priests they have transfered money around to avoid properly attained legal judgements against them for damages. it is a crime syndicate. this now requires a rico prosecution .

Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Feb 19 - 01:46 PM

It seems from a report i The Irish Times this moorning that clerical abuse by TEXAN BAPTISTS is now becoming a major issue
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: Donuel
Date: 12 Feb 19 - 01:16 PM

Contrition is a rare but not unheard of historic event. I use Nazi war fugitives as an example.

Self imposed contrition belongs in the same world as; self incarceration, self punishment, self execution, self imposed restitution and confession.

Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: John P
Date: 12 Feb 19 - 12:06 PM

Joe, the reason I thought the Federal government should be involved is because the Catholic Church transferred rapists to other states in order to avoid prosecution. They have been running an interstate crime ring.

What I would like to see is a civil suite against the church and all of it's subsidiaries for more money than the church has. Take every penny, every building, every business, everything. And put everyone who knew anything about the rapes in prison.

Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 11 Feb 19 - 08:23 AM

Makes a tragedy of the 'joke' my old boss used to tell.


What pleasure does a monk get?

Nun!


Pre PC days of course and in the early 70's I found it funny. It now seems pretty sick :-(

Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Feb 19 - 05:17 AM

This morning's Irish Times reports that the sexual abuse of nuns was first brought to the attention of The Vatican in 1992, nothing was done and the report was shelved
The excuse now being given is that it was thought to be "only happening in Third World Countries" - it cites Arica (bad enough), but it transpires that Italy was mentioned as one of the problem countries
One wonders where this will go now
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: Joe Offer
Date: 11 Feb 19 - 04:09 AM

....and, as always, I continue to be mystified by Donuel. Don, what's 12 May about?

Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: Joe Offer
Date: 11 Feb 19 - 04:02 AM

But then, I think Jerry Rasmussen will tell you how wonderful the American Baptists have been for him, so it's hard to tie down who's who. Jimmy Carter has been a Southern Baptist, but he has been strongly critical of them - as I am strongly critical about many things in my Catholic Church.

Most Sundays, I have a wonderful time, but sometimes I get pissed off. Friday, I had a great time playing Scrabble with a wonderful nun, and Saturday I got pissed off at a nun who was as inconsiderate as she usually is. And Sunday, the choir director was bitchy but nice later, and I had a great time hanging out with a bunch od old people and working with some young people, and the priest who is usually a pain in the ass wasn't so bad this time. Sounds like real life, doesn't it?

This whole sex abuse issue has never been easy for me to sort out. No, it shouldn't happen in a church, but the ugly reality is, that it does. I haven't figured out yet how to deal with it. But it's still there, and it's still ugly.

But every Friday, I play Scrabble with an 87-yr-old Mercy nun, and it's always wonderful and I love that woman with all my heart. And every Sunday, I sing my little heart out at Mass With a choir that has too many Trump supporters in the men's section and a lot of brilliant women who don't like Trump. And then I spend time with a lot of people I love. And the sex abuse scandal seems very far away, although I know it's still there.

Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: Mossback
Date: 10 Feb 19 - 06:34 PM

Then too, the Houston Chronicle article should come as no surprise considering the several Evangelical denominations are composed of hypocrite fundamentalist lunatics who have replaced Jesus with Trump.

Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: Mossback
Date: 10 Feb 19 - 06:27 PM

That's only one of several horrors the Southern Baptists are responsible for - but it could be worse: there are the Conservative Baptists and the Primitive Baptists et. al.

Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: Rapparee
Date: 10 Feb 19 - 03:00 PM

And now...ladies and gentlemen...direct from The Houston Chronicle!

Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: Donuel
Date: 10 Feb 19 - 09:29 AM

Well Joe, so far your alibi for May 12th is holding up. :^/

Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: Joe Offer
Date: 10 Feb 19 - 12:22 AM

I think that most people don't commit crime, because crime doesn't make sense to them - it does not fit into their philosophy of life, if you will. The fear of punishment has something to do with it, but I think that most people don't commit crime because crime is senseless and absurd to them.

So, the people who DO commit crime, very often have something wrong with them. I think an awful lot of them, are able to make themselves believe they are doing the right thing. Authority telling them otherwise, will have very little effect on them.

As for the coverups, I think it's a number of things. One is the liability, which has reached an outrageous extreme. If a middle manager (bishop) has to pay millions of dollars in reparation for an action he had no knowledge of, that burden may be just too much to take and may drive a weak person to coverup - and most middle managers are weak persons. Another reason is mistaken loyalty to a priest who "couldn't possibly do anything so horrible." Or some sort of insensitive that elitist bishops have to the lower classes. Or any number of other reasons that need to be explored.

I don't usually like people who are in management, and I've rarely met a Catholic bishop I've admired - but I have to admit that some priests and bishops that I HAVE admired, have committed these horrible crimes nonetheless.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 Feb 19 - 07:50 PM

I don't need to be told by anyone not to commit crime or do anything else that's plainly injurious to anyone else. The question is, how do I know?

Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: Joe Offer
Date: 09 Feb 19 - 06:12 PM

Wait! Wait! Wait!

Obama is now the one responsible for the sex crimes committed by Catholic priests, mostly before the year 2002?

For the most part, the crimes committed were crimes against state law, and not under federal jurisdiction. Of course the same question of jurisdiction applies to the Catholic Church, where the offenses all fell within the jurisdiction of the local diocese.

If the local jurisdiction fails to prosecute, then someone from the local area must file a complaint with a higher authority. That's the standard way it works. There is no automatic national or international oversight, either in the U.S. government or in the Vatican. Local authorities are expected to deal with local issues.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: John P
Date: 09 Feb 19 - 04:52 PM

I am heartily sick of all the right wing assholes complaining about what a bad president Obama was, but the Catholic sex crimes are one place where he seriously dropped the ball. And we are still fumbling it. If any other multi-national corporation was shown to be officially engaged in a massive child-rape conspiracy, we would have hired an army of lawyers and raided every office in the country, and confiscated every piece of paper and every computer hard drive. We wouldn't still be wringing our hands about it. We'd be watching hundreds of high-ranking corporate executives go to jail.

Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: John P
Date: 09 Feb 19 - 04:45 PM

Raggytash: I can assure you Joe I, and I would suggest most people, refrain from crime because we are told by "authorities" not to commit crime.

That's actually rather scary. I know that I don't commit crimes for the simple reason that it is wrong to do so. For anyone who thinks civilization is a good thing, committing crimes is irrational. If I wanted to commit a crime, I'm smart enough to figure out how to do it without getting caught.

Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 09 Feb 19 - 01:23 PM

They are supposed to show us how to live our lives free from sin and to resist temptation at all times.

I’m not sure about that Raggy. My own take is that churches can recognise our fallibility and I like the (Anglican) book of Common Prayer lines:

We have left undone those things which we ought to have done; And we have done those things which we ought not to have done;

It’s true of me and likely true of most…

But that’s mostly a digression. Whereas it might be recognised that we, the people, sin, churches and their officials are expected to be our (for want of a better term) “moral guides” and follow these “high standards” themselves. I suppose it can be quite a shock to learn that priests have been involved in things abominable. I guess I could speculate that might add to the temptation to cover things up although, obviously, that is not the way.

The only way forwards is openness, acknowledging crimes and dealing with such matters according to the law of the land(s).

Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Feb 19 - 01:02 PM

RELUCTANCE TO INVESTIGATE A "GLOBAL ISSUE"
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: Thompson
Date: 09 Feb 19 - 12:40 PM

America too - and I have no doubt also other, civilised countries.

"In a statement issued Thursday, the Leadership Conference of Women Religious, the largest association representing nuns in the U.S., said that while this problem is prevalent mostly in developing countries — there have been many cases in Africa, and last year a nun in India accused a priest of repeatedly raping her between 2014 and 2016 — it has gone on in the U.S., too.

"The conference specifically referenced a 1996 study from St. Louis University that indicated, "there were sisters in the United States who had suffered some form of sexual trauma by Catholic priests. Often those sisters did not share this information even with their own communities." "

Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: Raggytash
Date: 09 Feb 19 - 12:18 PM

What !!

I can assure you Joe I, and I would suggest most people, refrain from crime because we are told by "authorities" not to commit crime.

Which planet do you live on??

Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Feb 19 - 12:17 PM

It's not the crime, which, as you say can happen anywhere
It's the long tern facilitating by covering up those crimes by the hierarchy that is destroying the church from within
They are still acting like an organisation that doesn't have the good sense to come in from the rain - the Bishop Barros fiasco being typical
Personally I don't care less about the fate of the Church, but I care about my friends and relatives who would be deeply distressed should it collapse in the manner it is set fair to do
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: Joe Offer
Date: 09 Feb 19 - 11:58 AM

But that's not the reality, Raggytash. Your contention shows a lack of understanding of crime, particularly sex crimes. People don't refrain from crime, just because some authority tells them not to do it. For the most part, crime is best dealt with by criminal prosecution.

Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: Raggytash
Date: 09 Feb 19 - 11:47 AM

"why not in the church"

Simple Joe, because the church(es) are supposed to be beyond reproach. They are supposed to show us how to live our lives free from sin and to resist temptation at all times.

Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Feb 19 - 11:33 AM

"In a statement issued Thursday, the Leadership Conference of Women Religious, the largest association representing nuns in the U.S., said that while this problem is prevalent mostly in developing countries — there have been many cases in Africa, and last year a nun in India accused a priest of repeatedly raping her between 2014 and 2016 — it has gone on in the U.S., too."
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: Joe Offer
Date: 09 Feb 19 - 10:47 AM

The sexual abuse of nuns by priests has happened frequently in various African nations. I also recall a case in Ohio. I'm sure there are more.
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/2019/02/07/pope-reveals-nun-abuse-but-u-s-activists-say-problem-isnt-new/2804109002/

Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Feb 19 - 06:44 AM

"It happens everywhere, so why not in churches?"
The 'divine' power of the church reaches far beyond that of any secular organisation so any attempts at comparison are totally irrelevant
One of the effects of revelations such as these has been to loosen the once almost unassailable power of the church - the last battle appears to be over the Church's continuing control over childrens' minds via the education system - hopefully that will be sorted out this year
If church supporters haven't realised the damage being done by the church's intransigence and evasion the destruction of their church will be down to them

To my knowledge, the rape and sexual abuse of nuns has never been raised as an issue publicly - if it had been it would have exploded as violently as has clerical child abuse and Magdalene slavery   
An at least "thirty year old" cover-up, it would appear
When will they ever learn ?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: Joe Offer
Date: 08 Feb 19 - 09:09 PM

A report came out in the New York Times the other day that priests had sexually abused nuns. This is something that I've known about for maybe thirty years - it has been discussed at length in Catholic newspapers like America and National Catholic Reporter. I am disgusted and embarrassed that this sort of thing would happen in my church, but the reality is that it DOES happen - that it's almost certain to happen in an organization with 1.2 billion members. It happens everywhere, so why not in churches?

A friend of mine posted the NY Times article on Facebook and urged his Catholic friends to leave their church, and here's how I responded:

Maybe you can't understand this, but please try. I see each new exposure of misconduct as a step forward, not as a reason for leaving. I have known of these issues all my life, and I have fought against this sort of malfeasance for years. When it is brought to light and especially when it is prosecuted, I see that as a victory.
But I am still Catholic because that's who I am. To leave, would be to betray myself. So I will remain a Catholic, and will continue to work to fix what's wrong with Catholicism.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: Donuel
Date: 08 Feb 19 - 07:44 PM

Nuns are fun but Priests are creeps.

Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: Mrrzy
Date: 08 Feb 19 - 11:55 AM

Ah ha ha in gory ha ha whew hee hee...

Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: ollaimh
Date: 08 Feb 19 - 12:57 AM

the pope just admitted that priests used nuns for sex slaves, they cover themselves in gory one more time.

Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: Donuel
Date: 27 Dec 18 - 03:04 PM

I bet clerical abusers want to go to heaven for the climate but are going to hell for the company they keep.

Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: Brian May
Date: 26 Dec 18 - 02:04 PM

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-46684638

Even the Home Secretary.

I suppose he's racist too . . .

Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: Rapparee
Date: 25 Dec 18 - 10:29 PM

I will also point out that there is growing concern over clerical abuse of adults.

Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: Rapparee
Date: 25 Dec 18 - 10:20 PM

I have completed two different training sessions and a background check by the diocese just so I can be an usher/greeter. Anyone who might be working with children for over an hour per month is required to do this every three years. An adult working with, say, a boy scout troop can't send anyone to a bathroom unless the adult has checked it first and then an older kid must accompany a younger.

This type of requirement has been the rule since 2002.

Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: leeneia
Date: 25 Dec 18 - 12:04 PM

I agree with you, Joe. Some people are so eager to talk about sexual abuse in the Catholic church, but they never say a word about the many forms of help and charity that the church offers.
===========
My newspaper just ran a series on sexual abuse of teen-age girls in "independent fundamental Baptist churches." Cover-ups seem widespread.

The article got me to thinking. I was raised Lutheran, and in all my activities (Sunday school, Bible school, catechism, confirmation classes, services, parties) I can't remember a single time when I was ever left alone with an adult. (other than my mother or father, of course) This was in three churches in two states.

I just wrote a letter to the editor and said that. I also said to parents that if they belong to a church where a minister has kids alone in his office, then they should change churches.

Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: Joe Offer
Date: 24 Dec 18 - 04:48 PM

Yeah, I suppose the Catholic church at Ballyferriter is a valuable asset. It should be torn down and the property sold to developers who can build cute little prefab houses. Right?

Yes, there are justifications for bankrupting the Catholic Church. There are also consequences. All those mostly-empty "assets" cost a lot to maintain, so that tourists can come in and take selfies. Those old churches don't really function all that well for services that are suited to the times, but there's a raucous outcry from people who don't go to church, every time an old church closes or is modernized.

We Catholics acknowledge all the damage that was done by criminal priests in years past, but we also know that the vast majority of our priests were not guilty of these crimes. For most crimes, the guilty parties are the ones held responsible, and almost all agree that the criminals should pay the price of their crime. But in this case, it's different. The price is being paid by people who were mostly unaware of the crimes at the time they were happening. And because Catholic parishes have "assets," there are people lining up to collect those assets.

There's no question that we who are current members of the Catholic Church do have a share in the responsibility for reparations, but where does that responsibility end? When can we stop paying and go on with life?

Our parish just cut our music director from 40 to 12 hours per week - the congregation is shrinking, and there just wasn't enough money to pay her. We need a new roof, and that will cost $100,000. We thought our diocese paid for all those offenses at about the time they were reported, at about $100,000 per victim. But then came 2002 and the big reports of dioceses that hadn't paid, and we had to pay another million bucks per victim. We cut staff and closed buildings and learned to live on an austerity budget, but we still haven't recovered enough to pay a fulltime music director a living wage.

And yes, there are some dioceses who tried to evade their financial responsibility for the crimes their priests committed, and people are looking at us who already paid and thinking we owe more money.

And yeah, it does seem to me that there are some people who seek to take advantage of this crisis to put us out of business because they think we're evil, but we're not. We run homeless shelters and soup kitchens and food banks, and we are the strongest voice for justice for immigrants in the U.S. We want to get on with that work, and we are getting weary of those who dwell on the crimes a small minority of our priests committed in the last millennium.

So, yeah, go tear down the church and build cute little houses all over Ballyferriter, if that's what you want to do. We'd be better off without all those "assets."

-Joe Offer-

P.S. to ollaimh: My name is Joe, not "Holy Joe." You can take your honorifics and stick them up your ass. Merry Christmas.

Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: Rapparee
Date: 24 Dec 18 - 04:21 PM

Oh, I think
the laity is aware of
what is going on.

Moreover, I think the laity is going to force significant change no matter what the Vatican does...and I don't mean by withholding collection monies.

Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 24 Dec 18 - 03:58 PM

http://www.buildingsofireland.ie/niah/search.jsp?type=record&county=KE&regno=21304201

Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: keberoxu
Date: 24 Dec 18 - 03:54 PM

Of the two hundred - plus churches which were shut down by the Archdiocese of Boston, they have met with many varied fates.

The town of Wellesley had a church right on Route no. 9, which is not only a main commuter/connector route but is prime commercial real estate with everything from local businesses to state-of-the-art shopping malls. That particular church was a recent comer; some people moved to Wellesley who wanted a Catholic parish to worship in, and the church that was built was, honestly, a sort of cookie cutter church, nothing historical or unique.

Route no. 9 isn't going anyplace. The church, however, was literally razed down to the parking-lot foundation. You would never know that it had been there in the first place. Something else, and it is something commercial that is going to make money, is being built where the church stood.

The church which waked and buried Jack Kerouac back in the day, in his native Lowell, may have been a faithful reproduction of a Western-European continental style of architecture, so not terribly original, but the photos of the interior -- they were breathtaking in their beauty and elegance, with the Romanesque arches and all. The building is still standing. It is condominiums now.

I never looked inside -- Lowell is a ways away from me. I only saw those photographs on the webpages which the Archdiocese of Boston dedicated to 'real estate for sale.'

So many more ...

Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: keberoxu
Date: 24 Dec 18 - 03:41 PM

Iains' attempted link -- it didn't work for me either --
was a pageholder for
Saint Vincent's Catholic Church in Ballyferriter, build in 1865.

I'll see if I can construct a functional link.

St. Vincent's Catholic Church

Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: ollaimh
Date: 24 Dec 18 - 02:48 PM

religious fanatics raping children is such a complicated issue, it's so had to understand, the complexities make stopping it impossible, becuase to stop that, you'd lose money, and power and most of all the ego maniacs who deny deflect and diminish would have to examine their own evil. can't let that happen.. too complicated.

torturing native children, it's just so complicated, gotta defend that and never never never apologize. i guess we can see why the persecutions of nazis is so unfair. they were complicated as well. doing evil is so much clearly and fun, doing good ... well that's complicated. so who cares

Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: Raggytash
Date: 24 Dec 18 - 01:07 PM

Iains, unfortunately your link doesn't work. I'm curious as I know Ballyferriter reasonably well and would be interested in reading it.

Could you possibly resubmit it.

Thanks

Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: ollaimh
Date: 24 Dec 18 - 01:01 PM

holy joe will always question because holy joe will always find complicated reasons to do nothing. these are the enablers who need to be jailed, and untill people who endanger children by not warning parents of known pedophiles are jailed for felony child endangerment then the problem will not end.

the catholic church was the worst in the genocide of native children and now wants to hold the record for pedophilia. they remain the only church to not apologize for the native children's genocide.

but they are holy men. thr gnostic dualists were right. mainstream christianity worships devils and calls it god

Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Dec 18 - 08:52 AM

"Payment started long ago"
The Pope vicious turned on Pell's accusers
This is the problem wwith all you're arguments Joe - they skirt around the part that the Church heirarch played in all this and is still playing
Exactly, and religious groups still owe victims €1.3 billion and appear to be hoping that they'll die before it is paid
We are now living in a situation where Irish people are being turned out on the streets if their mortgages are a few months overdue
It's not as if your church is hard-up now, is it?
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: Iains
Date: 23 Dec 18 - 07:08 AM

Ballyferriter looks like a useful asset to me.


http://www.buildingsofireland.ie/niah/search.jsp?type=record&county=KE®no=21304201

Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: mg
Date: 22 Dec 18 - 05:42 PM

Denial? How about the pope himself in Chili calling abusees liars or a similar word. I do think a lot of the coverup is a huge shame about sex period...between newlyweds etc. A physical disgust at women and a subconscious belief that at least it was only altar boys and not vile womankind. Also a desire to protect assets of the church..which might be great in the vatican but in ballyferriter or mumbai they might be struggling at best.

Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: keberoxu
Date: 22 Dec 18 - 03:46 PM

Now His Holiness goes on the record as saying "turn yourselves in."

Something about the barn door comes to mind.

Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: Joe Offer
Date: 22 Dec 18 - 02:45 PM

And Jim, you say something about "the church stating (starting?) to pay the reparation it owes." Payment started long ago, and the Catholic Church has paid billions worldwide. And Catholics in Ireland have also paid substantial reparations. This has created a huge financial crisis all over the Catholic Chutch. But no, the debt is not paid in full.

Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: Joe Offer
Date: 22 Dec 18 - 01:37 PM

Well, yeah, Jim, I suppose Pell did deny his wrongdoing - but the Vatican sent him home to Australia for trial. And yes, there are still new "exposures" - but the majority are added details of crimes that have already been reported. But when reports of incidents are made, the majority of Catholics and Catholic officials no longer deny them.

And when the divorce referendum passes in Ireland (and I believe it will), the majority of Catholics will be voting in favor, and there will be many priests and a few bishops voting in favor of the referendum alongside them.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Dec 18 - 01:08 PM

Sorry Joe - we're in the middle of watching the churches reputation disappearing down the pan daily here in Ireland and it still acts as if it has influence - education - pregnant termination - same sex marriage
Next year we'll have the divorce referendum and women's place in society - it's on the cards which side they will be on
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Dec 18 - 01:04 PM

"Give me one recent example of denial"
New exposures are coming out every day Joe
You don't need recent ones - you can't deal with the old ones
Pell wasn't exactly that long ago, when the pope went to war with the people
The church stating to pay the reparation it owes might help
People are waiting for signs of genuine contrition, not platitudes
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: Joe Offer
Date: 22 Dec 18 - 12:58 PM

Mossback, I have no desire to do battle with you. Cool it. Now. What you're trying to pick a fight about, is immaterial.

Jim Carroll says: How longer are church people going to deny that this is now a major problem- are they not aware of the self-harm they are doing to their faith?

Give me one recent example of denial, Jim. Catholics, including church leaders, have acknowledged the reality and impact of this problem for a long, long, time.

But nobody denies this stuff, Jim.

As for the Illinois report, I'll wait and see. Seems to me that at this point, it would be unlikely that the attorney general would be able to uncover "about 500 of the allegations [that] had never before been disclosed to the public." (Chicago Tribune). http://bishop-accountability.org/ lists 265 Illinois priests as offenders, and I'm sure the number of offenses is many times 265.

I'll wait for more information on the Illinois report, which is described as "preliminary."

Whatever the case, it's a huge number of offenders and a far larger number of offenses. But I do think that Illinois will turn out like Pennsylvania - that most of the offenses and offenders have been known of by the public for many years.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: Mossback
Date: 22 Dec 18 - 09:15 AM

what Garrison Keillor did, other than it was something sexual involving a woman [emphasis mine]

Actually, you don't "know" that he did that at all.

This article lays out some important points:

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/dec/22/rape-joke-metoo-movement-career-repercussions

Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Dec 18 - 04:03 AM

The at least 500 cover-ups in Illinois was covered by our news station yesterday
How longer are church people going to deny that this is now a major problem- are they not aware of the self-harm they are doing to their faith?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: Joe Offer
Date: 21 Dec 18 - 11:56 PM

I have no idea what Garrison Keillor did, other than it was something sexual involving a woman; and it was a surprise and a disappointment to me that he was banished from public radio. And yes, it appears that his work has been made invisible, like the work of Bill Cosby and whatever Cardinal Pell did.

My question is not about the comparative guilt of these three men - but I do think that the banishment of their work was comparable. My question is whether their accomplishments must be made invisible and never spoken of favorably. The same thing seems to be happening with Harvey Weinstein movies, despite the fact that most of the people involved in production of those movies were totally innocent - and some were victims of Weinstein's malicious conduct.

We've had a thread that had a lot of traffic over the years. I started it in 2008, asking about hymn writer Ernest Sands. Over the 8-year life of the thread, we learned that Ernest Sands had been a Catholic priest, that he had molested children, and that he eventually committed suicide. Most likely, he was a very troubled man, but he wrote two hymns that remain very popular in the Catholic Church and other denominations. One is a catchy song in 5/4 time called "Sing of the Lord's Goodness." The other is "Song of Farewell," a very moving interpretation of the ancient "In Paradisum" prayer that closes Catholic funerals:

May the choirs of angels come to greet you
May they lead you to Paradise.
May the Lord enfold you in His mercy,
May you find eternal life.

There's real power and real compassion in that song. It's a wonderful song, and I think the author's horrible sexual misconduct cannot detract from the song.

But it's a difficult thing to consider the art of someone who has conducted himself horribly in "real life." I don't think there are easy answers.
-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: Mossback
Date: 21 Dec 18 - 08:18 PM

Placing Garrison Keillor in the same category as Bill Cosby and Cardinal Pell - even if the accusations against him were true, which was never proven - is a VERY cheap shot.

Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 21 Dec 18 - 08:14 PM

"Is the work of Garrison Keillor and Bill Cosby and Cardinal Pell and so many others, of no value? What should we do with regards to the work they've done?"

I think the only answer to this is that you can do what you like. In another thread there's been some chat about Wagner, whose views about Jews were utterly despicable. For me, that means I'll have nothing to do with his music, won't listen to it on the radio, won't have it in the house. But my hero Daniel Barenboim, a Jew who hates what Israel is doing to the Palestinians, took Wagner's music to Israel and took the flak. I can say I think he was wrong-headed, but hey, that's just my opinion. To me, there's something about sexual predators, especially the ones who target children, that makes me immediately want to dismiss anything else they've achieved. But that's me, and if you see things differently that's fine with me as well. As far as attacks on Catholic clergy go, let's just make sure that we attack the institution in its failings. Let's not tar the whole clergy with the misdeeds of a minority. I've been involved with Catholicism babe, child, boy and man for most of my life. Not any more (even though we've just dispatched my dad in as thoroughly a Catholic manner as you could wish for). I'm one of them thar militant atheists these days. But I've known hundreds of Catholics, pupils, students, nuns, priests, brothers, teachers and even Bishop bloody Victor (who I got the better of). I've even shaken hands with Cardinal Hume. To a man or woman, they are no better or worse than anyone else. So just make bloody sure that your long knives are reserved for the actual buggers who deserve them, that's all I'm saying.

Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: mg
Date: 21 Dec 18 - 07:22 PM

in Illinois it has gone from about 168 reported to about 500-700 the attorney general herself is working on. And Pell undoubtedly had financial experience running huge dioceses and abusing victims to prevent them from tapping into resources. But was he capable of dealing with mafia money laundering? International finance? it all sounds so fishy to me and I wrote the pope at the time.

Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: Joe Offer
Date: 21 Dec 18 - 07:15 PM

I do question ollaimh's report of "another seven hundred priestly rapists of children in michigan." As with most of the recent reports, they are summaries of information that has already been known for years, for the most part. http://bishop-accountability.org/ lists 128 offenders in Michigan. No doubt, the current investigations will find more, but certainly not 700. The truth is bad enough. I don't see why ollaimh feels compelled to inflate it.

-Joe-

https://www.detroitnews.com/story/news/local/michigan/2018/09/21/schuette-investigation-michigan-priests-sexual-abuse/1378827002/

Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: Joe Offer
Date: 21 Dec 18 - 06:56 PM

No, Donuel, mg meant Australia. Pope Francis moved Cardinal George Pell from Australia to the Vatican to take care of the financial mess in the Vatican. By all reports, he did a good job with the finances; but then it turned out that he made an even bigger mess by his coverups and his own sexual misconduct.
And that brings up my perennial question - can a person guilty of sexual misconduct do anything of value, or should such a person be shunned as a total reprobate? Is the work of Garrison Keillor and Bill Cosby and Cardinal Pell and so many others, of no value? What should we do with regards to the work they've done?

-Joe-

https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2018/may/01/who-is-cardinal-george-pell-and-what-is-he-accused-of

Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: Donuel
Date: 21 Dec 18 - 06:39 PM

We know you meant Austria. I saw the Pope story. I do not know if he made these declarations by sticky notes, tweets or documents.

Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: mg
Date: 21 Dec 18 - 04:36 PM

pope has told clerics to turn themselves in and others to stop enabling. I asked why he did not do this the first hour he was pope. And it is not like someone could not figure out this would bankrupt the church..especially when the creepy creep was brought out of Australia to control finances of church...pope says nice things but has failed miserably..not just by not responding properly but by actively saying things to further hurt the abused.

Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: ollaimh
Date: 21 Dec 18 - 04:34 PM

another seven hundred priestly rapists of children in michigan. they didn't understand what "suffer the little children meant"

and the people inside are the enablers, and untill they are jailed as well it won't stop

Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: Iains
Date: 17 Dec 18 - 06:37 AM

I cannot understand the rationale of a gagging order in cases of child abuse. Keeping it in the shadows merely encourages a continuation.

Cannot make a link for below: (It creates a 'not found' page)
An Australian court's gag order is no match for the ... - Washington Post
https://www.washingtonpost.com/lifestyle/style/an-australian-courts-gag-order-is-no-mat...

Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: Donuel
Date: 16 Dec 18 - 03:04 PM

Ever notice the church has narrow stairway to heaven and a Highway to Hell?

Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: keberoxu
Date: 16 Dec 18 - 01:41 PM

Long before Rome, there was Byzantium.
Well before the Catholic Christians, there were
the Eastern Orthodox Christians.

And not all that much attention, in mass media,
goes to revelations of clerical abuse,
be it of minors or of grown adults,
by Eastern Orthodox clerics.

If you look, and one doesn't have all that far to look,
the Eastern Orthodox wing of Christianity
is also breaking the silence about clerical abuse,
as it has been a fact of life in that denomination for a long time,
and the cover-ups and bureaucratic power plays
have been equally pervasive.

Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: Donuel
Date: 16 Dec 18 - 11:42 AM

When it comes to sex and the Church it resembles the secular world.
Just don't try this at home.

Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: ollaimh
Date: 16 Dec 18 - 11:09 AM

people like holy joe have studied child abuse for a long time with no answers,because they are worshipping evil and calling it god. they are the enablers who let it happen. they have to be jailed. the abusers have to be jailed. yes serious unishment and not rehabiulitation for the irredeemable because that is what they are irredeemably evil becuase they have spent lifetimes, and centuries looking evil in the face and colcluding it is just a conundrum, a puzzler. the real puzzler is why any one belives in the mad god and the evil churches.

Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: ollaimh
Date: 16 Dec 18 - 11:06 AM

yes the abuse goes well beyond sex, it is about power butjust as importantly, and usually ignored, it about evil.   the demons are inside the gates, the evilest people alive are protecting these abusers because they are a new level of hell on earth. christianity has been devil worshiping since saint augistine of hippo and it only got worse in the middle ages. it has perpetrated mass murder world wide and still is. war criminals like tony blair find god, bush never left god and that god is evil

Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: Rapparee
Date: 15 Dec 18 - 07:57 PM

Now there's this.

Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 13 Dec 18 - 02:25 PM

Well that's a bit of an odd story by any standards, Jim.

Do you remember Oliver? He used to have a bit of time for priests. I said the wrong thing to him once or twice. I think there is a strain of thought that they were sometimes from the poor families themselves, often a long way from home....more to pitied than condemned.

Some people have suggested that the only reason the Pope won't let priests be married and have normal sex lives is that it would cost twice as much to employ a married priest.

Wrong way to look at it really - that way you get two people working for sod all. You get the vicar's wife doing stuff as well. Plus you get a married man. and everyone knows they never have sexual problems.

Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Dec 18 - 12:51 PM

The abuse goes gfar beyond sexual and in my opinion was as much an expression of power than of sexual perversion - read about the industial schools or the Magdalene laundries to get examples of largely non-sexual abuse

I've told this story before, but it merits re-telling
Traveller, Mary Delaney was one of the finest singers we met
Both she and her sister were blind from birth - their father managed to get treatment for Mary's sister
She was operated on and after te operation, when they removed the dressings, she found she had her sight back - it lasted for a short time but faded again into total blindness
When Mary's father told the hospital priest what had occurred he asked, "did you say, thanks be to god?
He replied that he had been too excited
"That's why she lost her sight again". the priest told him
When we met the father we found that guilt had driven him to the bottle and he had become a helpless drunk

As far as I am concerned, that goes far beyond abuse and was sheer sadism - a total misuse of religious authority
THat is what I was I meant when I referred to "the backing of a supreme being"
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: Iains
Date: 13 Dec 18 - 11:48 AM

Big Al I was brought up a catholic with a secondary education by Jesuits. The scout troop I belonged to was run by the parish priest.In my entire time as a "child" I can honestly say I had not heard of even a rumour of abuse. It obviously happened in many other places-the statistics cannot be denied. That it severely traumatized many of those
abused is also beyond dispute. That it destroyed lives and families is not disputed. Having not experienced it first hand I cannot truly imagine the depths of misery experienced by the victims.
As a partial aside I was watching a you tube clip recently on Irish males that emigrated to Britain in the 50's and 60's. Many are now in poor health and living in bedsits in places like Birmingham. One of them being interviewed told how he had been abused by a priest in a county home in baltimore. He was then threatened by the senior priest there with dire punishment if he "spoke out of turn" I cannot imagine his feelings of pain, rejection, betrayal and hopelessness in such a situation. It really was a gut wrenching story.

No. you are right I cannot understand the betrayal of trust, but I can appreciate how such things can wreck lives, and their individual stories play havoc with the emotions. But this comes nowhere near to appreciating how the victims felt.

Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 13 Dec 18 - 10:32 AM

I think the thing is Iain - maybe you don't understand what the betrayal of trust felt like.

I came from an orange and green family. There was some sort of family bust up with the priest, and my Mum was the only kid out of four , brought up as a Protestant.

I really loved my cousin. He was about a year older than me. Though we went to different churches and different schools. We were very close.

I can remember how proud his Mum was and she gave us a photo of him wearing a sash and praying at his first communion. He became a choir boy.When he come round in his new suit. We had to sit round listening to him sing the mass in Latin, and admire him. Of course he went to the teaching brothers school. I was even went on holiday with him one year with the brothers. the teaching brothers .

His Mum was proud when he went to Catholic Grammar Scool and got his O levels , all grade one.two years early. They were SO poor, but they totally respectful of the clergy. THey lived in a house in the back streets of St Helens that had been condemned before the 1st world war.

These people were as poor as people were allowed to be in 1950's England They gave their love and respect, and they entrusted their child to the care of that church.

When thirty years later, I found out how my little cousin whom I loved, had been abused. It broke my heart that people could be so bloody rotten. Its when its under your nose that the stink appals.

Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Dec 18 - 07:20 AM

Why not answer the points rather than throwing stones at them
The Clerics used their religious calling to rape children and the Church used its religious power to hide and continue those rapes
Your one liner- dismissals don't count as debate as far as I'm concerned
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: Iains
Date: 13 Dec 18 - 06:08 AM

"no other group has ever had the backing of a supreme being to carry out and hide at least a century of clerical abuse"

Why try to deliberately destroy an interesting and important thread by posting arrant nonsense? Are you saying God encourages child abuse? you are a fool!

Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Dec 18 - 05:35 AM

"It is open as to whether this is deserved or not."
It most certainly is not - the world has moved on from this silly argument and the church stands on the brink of extinction due to these know cases of clerical abuse having been deliberately covered up by the hierarchy
Whataboutism doesn't wash here - no other group has ever had the backing of a supreme being to carry out and hide at least a century of clerical abuse
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: Iains
Date: 13 Dec 18 - 05:09 AM

There seems to be undercurrent in this thread of hammering the Catholic Church. It is open as to whether this is deserved or not.
Catholicism cannot claim the monopoly of clerical abuse claims.
It might be better to consider the problem in a wider context. In some countries today it is necessary to be vetted, before being allowed near children. It does not prevent abuse but it must certainly reduce it.
There is no excuse for abuse - even historical abuse where social mores may have been slightly more relaxed.
But I hear no protest about the 350,000 under age British soldiers that
served in WW1 and surely the resulting deaths and severe injuries suffered by them were a far greater abuse. Yet this historical fact is never discussed in terms of abuse, despite the fact that the government of the day relied on their numbers to delay the introduction of conscription.
Much of the abuse discussed is historical yet no mention is made of ongoing abuse today
Grooming by Asian gangs is a fact,trying to conceal by addressingit as racist abuse is a mockery of justice.
Bacha bazi, meaning 'boy play', is a tradition found across Afghanistan, where boys are trained to dance and forced to share sexual "favours".
Child soldiers in Africa are suffering abuse.
UN peacekeepers are betraying their uniforms and raison d'être by constantly hitting the headlines for child sexual abuse during their various missions. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Child_sexual_abuse_by_UN_peacekeepers
It is admirable to highlight historical abuse,but should not the emphasis be on the here and now in order to prevent further cases of abuse?

Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Dec 18 - 03:53 AM

It is reckoned that the most common occurrences of paedophelia take place within families or known circles of friends and acquaintances.

We are discussing institutional sexual deviation here, where powerful an influential State bodies have either ignored the rape o children other than when they have been covered up to protect their position in society - a different ball-game altogether
Hopefully, as far as the church goes, that will never be allowed to happen again, but that doesn't mean there isn't a mess still to be uncovered and debts to be paid
New cases are still being found and the church is still dragging its feet over paying for their crimes - last year it was reckoned that the Irish Church still owes €1.3 billion in reparation, despite the fact that the State agreed to pay the lions share
In behaving the way they have, the church is rapidly losing all credibility and influence, as they should - probably the only positive thing to come out of this sick, sorry mess
Ironically, thanks to the Church's behaviour, Ireland now has mixed sex marriage and the same right to pregnancy termination as does the civilised world - next year (hopefully), divorce and women's position in society will be dealt with responsibly without the dead hand of the church influencing any decision
That the church threatened politicians who voted 'wrongly' over abortion with excommunication, indicates that they have learned nothing

Their behaviour as as much a betrayal of the faithful as it is a drag on modern society as a whole - it is also a gun to their own head
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 12 Dec 18 - 09:56 PM

'Does sex with children happen more often in churches or among clergy?'

Theres a tendency to look where the light is.

One of my oldest friends was in the Quaker Friends Ambulance Corps in World War 2. No longer with us. But he told me that in the arab countries where he served, many families had fairly relaxed attitude to what we would call paedophilia.

He was in this home, fairly ordinary arab family home - and old Grandad came in and started playing with the little kid's balls. It seemed to be acceptable behaviour.

I dunno - but it seems to be a strain within people.
Perhaps some of the trauma victims experience is from our unrelaxed attitude.

I've gotten old. I don't know anything about anything any more. My Dad was a cop and used to stake out the bogs in the park arresting people presumably trying to sort out some sort of sex life. I've seen changes in attitudes to sexuality so profound in my lifetime.

I can't even begin to guess what will be 'normal' in a few years time.

Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: Joe Offer
Date: 12 Dec 18 - 03:10 PM

I can't say I know of any religions that promote pedophilia. Most Christian groups have taboos against it, and I'm sure most other religions do, also. Do taboos help? I don't know.

Some cultures have promoted the cultivation of young boys for sex - I believe it was fashionable in both Greece and Rome at times. There was a "North American Man-Boy Love Association" (NAMBLA) here in Northern California that was very self-righteous about sex with boys being a good thing for both the men and the boys.

Does sex with children happen more often in churches or among clergy? I haven't seen any data to support that, but it certainly gets a lot of press when it happens. It also happens frequently in youth choirs, scout groups, schools, and athletic teams - places where adults have the opportunity for close, trusting, long-term relationships with kids. Those same opportunities happen in church groups. But I think that most of us would say that such close, trusting, long-term relationships are good for kids - they certainly were good for me when I was growing up. The trouble is, such relationships also provide the opportunity for abuse, and we must develop ways to reduce that danger.

This is a subject that is very difficult to discuss honestly and dispassionately, because so many strong emotions are involved. The best understanding should come from studies of the victims and the perpetrators of these crimes, and neither of these are in a position to provide information freely. So, despite the eagerness of many to pontificate about the subject, I think there's a lot we just don't understand about all this.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: Donuel
Date: 12 Dec 18 - 11:40 AM

Margaret 'Psy' Cho, a comedian, has put forth that the sentencing of child sexual abuse criminals should not be life in prison because prison sex would be a reward. Instead execution is much more fitting.

Executions should be carried out by a "bevy" of very mean women who live together long enough until there cycles match and carry out the execution a week before their cycle. Other people that need to receive a final sentence are Weinstien, Cosby, Trump and all his woman hating enablers.

Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Dec 18 - 05:54 AM

£Utterly predictable responses"
No - just humanist
If pedophilia is "Muslim", it must also be "Catholic" and, as it has been found to have taken place in Protestant Churches - "Christian", which would be stupidly bigoted
Revelations, of late have disclosed far more Christian pedophilia than "Asian grooming" - Christian clerical abuse of children in these islands dates back at least a century - far longer and far more numerous than that practiced by Asian criminals
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: Brian May
Date: 12 Dec 18 - 05:21 AM

Utterly predictable responses

Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Dec 18 - 02:48 AM

The ethnic origins of the'grooming gangs' is totally immaterial - they were a tiny number of criminals and, next to the number of indigenous criminals engaged in similar activities, never featured on the paeophelia scale
The press made an issue of the ones of foreign origin and ignored the home-grown ones
As it has now become apparent, there were probably more well-known celebrities, members of Parliament and leading businessmen involved in far more series activities, including torture and murder, many who escaped justice because of who and what they were.
It was racist to have concentrated on the cultural origins of these few criminals

NEW SCANDAL TO HIT THE IRISH FAN
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 Dec 18 - 08:11 PM

The so-called grooming gangs didn't come from Asia. Thus your racism.

And the vast majority of those men of God don't abuse children. A few of them do, and their institution has been stupid enough to cover for them and put its own reputation above the well-being of those young people. That's how it is. I was born and raised a Catholic, educated for thirteen years in Catholic schools, including seven in a secondary school run by the Salesian Fathers, and taught in a Catholic school run by priests, nuns and brothers for seven years. I didn't see or hear of a single case of sexual abuse of a child, and I assure you that I'm a staunch and vigilant defender of young people, as Joe will tell you in a different context, to do with Catholic education, in which he thinks I'm wrong-headed. The abuses are and were horrendous and the Church dealt with the issue wrong-headedly. But hundreds of millions of Catholics, including thousands of priests, are simply no better or worse than anyone else. I'm an ex-Catholic and a Dawkinsian atheist and would never defend religion, but if you are inclined to be grossly unfair to the vast majority of Catholics without qualification then you are an abuser yourself.

Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: Brian May
Date: 10 Dec 18 - 05:49 PM

Very interesting to see the response to this thread on the disgusting abuse of children by 'men of God'.

A few years back, when I pointed out the increasing disclosures of Asian grooming gangs abusing young (mainly) white girls, I was informed by the worthies here that I was just a racist bigot.

In fact many of you were quite aggressive about it.

How do you feel now? It's interesting how great swathes of the population turn on the messenger and plumb the depths of denial rather than face the issue.

Since my last post on the subject, when I promised this disgusting phenomenon was not going to go away, there have been countless repeats.

Just Google 'Asian Grooming Gangs'. Is every response penned by a racist bigot, or is it a simple truth?

So for all the (justified) disgust regarding the church behaviour and covers up by the senior clergy, why not spare a thought for the thousands of kids abused in our own back yard.

And for those who abused me for pointing it out, may your karma be merciful . . .

Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 09 Dec 18 - 01:13 PM

More revelations...!


https://soundcloud.com/denise_whittle/the-day-delaneys-donkey-had

Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 09 Dec 18 - 02:56 AM

Terribly sad business. I've known some wonderful Roman Catholic people. As Jim says, those people deserve so much better.

Clinging to mysteries in the name of obedience and mysticism is just so not playing the game.

I think its got to the point where basic human decency and humanity should be within the compass of every right thinking person - no exceptions - Popes, Imams....everyone.

Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 08 Dec 18 - 08:11 PM

Don't let him personalise this, Joe. He's clearly a chap with an agenda.

Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: Joe Offer
Date: 08 Dec 18 - 07:57 PM

Well, one would expect ollaimh to be confused. Probably never had a rational thought in his body.

I've known hundreds of priests in my lifetime, and a few of them were accused of molesting children - maybe as many as 20. I knew nothing about any sexual misconduct of any priest, until the accusations were published in the newspaper.

Child sexual abuse is a very difficult crime to detect. It is a crime committed in utmost secrecy. And those secrets are kept for decades, sometimes forever.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 08 Dec 18 - 07:38 PM

Out of order.

Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: ollaimh
Date: 08 Dec 18 - 07:34 PM

and i have to say that people like joe offer are the real problem. he says we worked with pedophile priests for , was it forty years?< and didn't warn parents who they were? if you knew you have a positive ethical obligation to publicly identify these dangers to children. and there need to be felony child endangerment laws to put peope who fail to warn in jail for significant terms. that is what it will take to stop it.

all the hand wringing , talk about helping the pedohiles and rationalizations have achieved northing. we need to jail these enablers first and foremost to make it stop.

i would be a great idea to end tax exempt status for churches like the catholic church that so egregiously failed to protect children, especially the racist genocide they perpetrated on native children. these churches are the embodiment of true evil in the world

Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Dec 18 - 04:39 AM

The latest examples of te Pope describing homosexuality as "a trend" seems to indicate that the church has learned nothing and probably never will
Saves the expense of employing a gravedigger as they seem quite happy to dig their own
Ireland faces another holy war in the coming few months as a date has now been decided on a referendum on Divorcee, almost certain to be followed by one to remove the constitutional clause which says "a woman's place in in the home"
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 05 Dec 18 - 03:13 AM

And Joe has called ME an absolutist! :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: ollaimh
Date: 05 Dec 18 - 01:31 AM

these evil christians make scientology look good

Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: ollaimh
Date: 05 Dec 18 - 01:29 AM

joe still has his head in the sand. these are the worse possible abusers and very little has been done, especially in native schools in the usa where it is still the practice to destroy the records of the victims of crime, and then say well they were never here, even thought they have dozens or more witnesses to their attendance. pure racism, from a church that has done deals with racists from day one.

it would be nice to kick them out of north america.

the destruction of lives they have wreaked on a mass scale is despicable. their apologists wring their hand here and whine we did all we could. all you could do was so inadequate as to be a criminal conspiracy to aid and abbet widespread major criminal activity.

it just shows that the gnostic dualists were right. christians are worshiping a devil and calling it god

Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: keberoxu
Date: 03 Dec 18 - 01:13 PM

Here is another feature story about the applications of civil RICO to the Church.

This story is a few months old, and I missed it at the time.
Today, I find this report riveting.

Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: keberoxu
Date: 30 Nov 18 - 01:58 PM

Former U.S. Prosecutor David Hickton in a recent interview.

Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: Donuel
Date: 29 Nov 18 - 09:04 PM

mg You mentioned remarks of "I never knew." are unbelievable.
These kind of lies are most likely from people who did know but did not commit a heinous act. This helps the liar deal with the ethical dilemma of being a kind of witness but choosing to protect the institution over the victims which is a sin in my book.

Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: keberoxu
Date: 29 Nov 18 - 11:07 AM

Two things strike me about the article I just read.

First, it's front-page news in USA Today which has a wide and diverse population of readers.

Second, David Hickton, profiled in the article, started out his life as a Catholic school student who somehow escaped being assaulted and abused, but was surrounded by teammates, literally, who became victims -- and Hickton ended up working as a U. S. Attorney prosecutor.

Catholic prosecutor took on his own church

Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 Nov 18 - 05:49 PM

I think that it's very important to confront honestly all the allegations against clerics in the Church. I haven't got a lot of time for any organised religion, but I know that there are thousands of priests, bishops and nuns, as well as devout Catholic laypersons, who must feel devastated by all this. What a shame that the Church has effectively institutionalised the issue by denial, reluctance to act and covering up. The institution has let Catholicism down big time. What the Church does now is key to the future. We need to see honesty, openness, quick action and contrition. I'm a cradle Catholic, well-lapsed of course, and I've been educated and been an educator for decades in Catholic schools, working with many priests, brothers and nuns. I saw no sex abuse and I can tell you (having worked for a long time in non-Catholic sectors as well) that all those people seemed no better or worse than anyone else. If the issue is not confronted there'll be a gathering storm, even worse than now. In the British Labour Party there were accusations of institutional antisemitism. Almost all Labour members were devastated by the accusations. The party acted quickly and openly and held an enquiry that was very public. The storm has been somewhat staunched, though not completely killed off. That's how it goes. There will always be people out to get you, no matter how hard you try to right the wrongs. The Church has got to do the right thing, quickly and fully in the public eye.

Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: Joe Offer
Date: 12 Nov 18 - 04:34 PM

This article quotes the head of SNAP (Survivors Network of those Abused by Priests) as saying nearly one-third of U.S. bishops have been accused of mishandling claims of sexual abuse. I'm guessing that many of those accusations involve bungled situations and not intentional misconduct, so I'm sticking with my ten percent figure for now.

At least in my seminary in the 1960s, we got no training on how to handle complaints of child sexual abuse - that training is now given to all employees and volunteers who work in my diocese. Handling such complaints is not as straightforward as it seems, because the natural inclination is not to believe accusations of sexual misconduct against young priests who seem so nice. Employees and volunteers are now instucted to report all such questions to both law enforcement and church management, and leave the sorting to professionals.

At their meeting this month, the U.S. bishops were set to vote on proposals for dealing with misconduct by bishops. At the last minute, they received a Vatican to postpone that vote until after the international meeting on the subject that will take place early next year. I suppose that makes sense, but such delays are frustrating and disappointing.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: Thompson
Date: 06 Nov 18 - 05:58 PM

What astonishes me is how this happened. 1800 years or so of - mostly - civil behaviour by priests (from which I except Thomas à Becket, whose row with the king was over whether the state or the church should try an abusive priest who killed his victim's father when he objected to his "seduction of his daughter). Anyway, apart from Tom, mostly decent priests and nuns dedicated to service and goodness.

Then… what? Power, I suppose: power over whole societies which didn't dare resist them; the power to imprison women and sell children, and have no one say them nay, under the pretence of "saving" them.

Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: mg
Date: 06 Nov 18 - 04:05 PM

Recent boston globe article says 30% of living bishops. Even that sounds low. Do we know how many actually reported offensives, say since 2002 or so when at the very least they should have seen the writing on the wall. I think many were trying to protect church assets, and I don't blame them, but some were totally willing (aka pell and others) to be totally cruel to victims..oh dear..so was the pope in chili. I am thinking a bishop in us who reported anything to anybody would be an absolute outlier but I could be wrong. And those international bishops who declared at a synod this just was not a problem in their dioceses are beyond belief.

Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: mg
Date: 05 Nov 18 - 12:15 PM

I don't think it was not even 10%. Something I read recently said it was now with existing Bishops somewhere between 30 to 50% and and in previous years it seems like almost all of them. I think we need to know what the truth is and if there are Scholars here who have access to this information if we could get a somewhat accurate estimate and that would be good. I think there's no way in hell it's 10%

Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: Joe Offer
Date: 03 Nov 18 - 04:06 PM

I've been awake for a long time, ollaimh. When I was in the seminary in the 1960s, the Catholic Archdiocese of Milwaukee put us through an extensive [and intrusive and embarrassing] battery of psychological testing and psychiatrist interviews, in an attempt to weed out seminarians who should not be ordained priests because they might be likely to commit sex crimes. Other dioceses were doing similar screening. They believed this would solve the problem.

In the 1970s, Catholic dioceses in the United States built expensive, state-of-the art treatment centers for priests who had problems with addictions and sexual misconduct. They believed this would certainly solve the problem, and they felt safe about reassigning priests to new parishes. That backfired.

At least since the 1980s, my current home diocese of Sacramento has had a standard, immediate response to allegations of sexual misconduct by priests:

• Report the offending police for criminal investigation
• Offer counseling to victims
• Offer no-questions-asked, immediate settlements to victims - $25,000 for lesser offenses, and $40,000 for major offenses like child molestation.

Not every diocese followed this common-sense practice, but many did. It didn't completely solve the problem, but it helped. Since 1986, U.S. insurance companies have refused to insure Catholic dioceses against sexual misconduct by priests, so the dioceses have paid claims out of their own funds. Earlier claims were paid by insurance.

There were some bishops who covered up offenses (some out of fear and some out of malice), but certainly not even ten percent. But if one diocese had a practice of covering up offenses, that could quickly add up to a large number of offending priests and an even larger number of victims. And since bishops get moved around, more dioceses could be affected than there were offending bishops. It didn't seem to matter whether the bishops were liberal or conservative - some of each covered up these crimes, and thus were guilty of crimes themselves.

And of course, many of the crimes were covered up by ecclesiastical functionaries without the bishop knowing. And many crimes were committed that were not covered up. And many other crimes were committed that the victims did not report.

The result was a relatively large number of crimes and victims and a relatively small number of people committing the crimes. There were crimes in every diocese in the United States, and most probably in every diocese in the world. But most bishops did not cover up the crimes, and most Catholics were only slightly aware the crimes were happening.

But yes, I was aware such crimes were happening as far back as the 1960s, and I'm sure almost all priests and bishops were also aware. But I was also aware that even back in the 1960s, Catholic dioceses were doing a lot to prevent and control and respond to crimes of the sexual abuse of children. Those measures failed to prevent all these crimes, and that is a shame and a scandal. Those who committed the sex crimes and the coverups must be investigated, prosecuted, and punished; and the victims must be compensated. We Catholics want this matter to be resolved, settled, and ended. It's our children who were the victims.

-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 Nov 18 - 03:01 PM

Unfair.

Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: ollaimh
Date: 03 Nov 18 - 02:01 PM

joe, wake up--from the beginning catholic authorities have done everything they can to kept their criminal activities secret and to protect criminals. they have a long term committment to protecting the most evil people possible and all their adherants are culpibable. it is the worst of the many demoniac christian religions. and you can tell their evil by their willingness to also protect nazis

Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: ollaimh
Date: 10 Sep 18 - 08:15 PM

abd they need to lat charges or felony child endangerment against all those who knew and did not warn parents at every level. every one who helped treat and didn't warn parents, every one who transfered them and didn't warn, every one who covered up and didn't warm

as for the torturers in the residential school canada just had a royal commission , easily accessed. in the usa the genocide against natives is active with the private army of erik prince going to war against the sacred stone camp opposing the use of native land for the dalp, and of course the american residential schools are still destroying records to cover up their torture illegal medical experiements and rape.   native is the usa still don't have fair access to justice in the courts. ward churchill won a million dollars for wrongfull dismissal at a colorado university and the judgement was set aside by a racist appeal court, and the realy big one is the suit for the blck hills was recognized as valid by the us supreme court but they said they can't have their land, they have to take money. the sioux have so far refused the money and want their land. but treateis signed with the usa are worthless. they void them any time they feel like it. the usa is a genocidal racist state world wide and right at home, while the holy joe's come up with hand wringing and excuses and defend nazis

Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: Thompson
Date: 09 Sep 18 - 09:42 AM

Popes and bishops deliberately covered up the crimes, and still refer to "sin" and "mistakes" and the like. Here's a graph of how sexual abuser clerics were moved from one place to another (to where they found new victims) in Ireland alone.

It is not alone the rapes and sexual assaults and bullying that were the crime. It is the fact that an organisation conspired to hide these crimes, and to shelter the criminals, while terrifying the victims into silence. The Catholic Church in Ireland (and in many places) is a criminal organisation, whose influence has been malign.

Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: Joe Offer
Date: 09 Sep 18 - 02:25 AM

This is from a Boston Globe article dated September 2, 2018:

Time’s up for Pope Francis and the leaders of the Catholic Church.

Catholics everywhere — and anyone who cares about children — should demand that our criminal justice system start treating the Roman Catholic Church for what many victims believe it is: an international criminal conspiracy to cover up the rape of what in the United States alone might amount to 100,000 children.
Every attorney general in the country should use their subpoena powers to force the church hierarchy to give up their long-held secrets of clerical crimes. Every state legislature should eliminate the statute of limitations on sexual crimes against children. In every state, clergy should be mandated reporters of alleged sexual abuse....

I think that makes sense. Popes and bishops aren't trained to deal with crime. From the very beginning, this should have been handled by law enforcement and child protection professionals.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: ollaimh
Date: 08 Sep 18 - 08:22 PM

canadian criminal convictions are public record as are the charges agaisnt msgr william lynn. the canadian torturers who were convicted became a cause celebre for the tories. steven harper appealed all the way to the supreme court of canada to try and have their criminal records sealed, against all canadian law. why? because they were good christians and the victims were native. one of harpers dead osing appeals over his views, wasting around fourty million dollars in leagl fees on each such appeal.

in the one over the james bay catholc torturers he showed true pernicious racism which is usually done by dog whistle, but here it was right out in the open. a different law for natives than christians.

so you can hardly miss these convictions if you look for news articel. they are not obscure.

that is the kind of filth these holy joes are enabling and defending.

Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: Rapparee
Date: 06 Sep 18 - 10:23 PM

O, do you have citations for those charges? I'd really like to know; I'm not trying to start something.

Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: ollaimh
Date: 06 Sep 18 - 04:22 AM

and of course remember that most of the criminal convictions in canada for torture, are for catholic priests and their employees for their racist torture, illegal medicval experiments and sexual abuse of the native children for whom they took moral and physical responsibility. this isn't the only evil church but arguably the worst.

these scandals were openly admitted to by the canadian anglican chursh in their quarterly in 1996. catholics have yet to apologize or make sufficeint restitution.

moreover, i advocate strict criminal penalities for not just abuse but for felong child enadnagerment if one does not warn parents of the presence of pedophiles in the employ of the church in their area. as msgr william lynn was convicted(on appeal at last reading)

jim carrol this isn't mob.(an incedibly stupid assertion) it's criminal law . a pilar of ethical society, unlike christianity which is a pilar of evil.

the catholic church has avoided paying damages where ever they can joe. in my area they want to local church members in the acadien pennisula and capre breton to raise the funds to pay law suits rather than the church. more oever in the usa multiple diosesses have stashed their cash in corporate entities such as grave yard maintaince funds. the chicago group has millions stashed thus. enough to cover grave yeard maintaince for the whole country!!! they are doing what ever they can to avoid responsibility. california has stricter laws forcing payment of damages for serious torts. they are only doing t he minimum undet the law. their standard remains thatof --if you can't throw us in jail or prove it in court we have no ethical responsiblites.

the american native residential schools have been caught destroying records of childern who were suing, to avoid payments. so as natives have less access to lawyers few get compensation for rape abuse and illegal medical experiments.

and it is no accident that this chuch made the deal with the nazis, to get control over german education, in return for the catholic centre party supporting hitler's legislating dictatorial powers and made the latern accord with mussolini. crimes for which they will never be forgiven if there is a god. so is it all about nazis? is sure is for the catholic church, not me.

Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 01 Sep 18 - 06:28 AM

That is an utterly contemptible post, Donuel, and it would be beneath my dignity to respond to its substance. You are completely off-topic. Shame on you for persisting. Drop it.

Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: Rapparee
Date: 31 Aug 18 - 10:05 PM

The Catholic Church, like all of the churches, can only be redeemed by the laity. The clergy have failed, failed for centuries. And whether the clergy like it or not, the laity -- the people -- are the church.

Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: Donuel
Date: 31 Aug 18 - 09:54 PM

Senofou, My point is that Steve's brand of atheism is on the harsh side, nothing to do with Nuns who I personally found to be a delight to work with.
Examples supporting my opinion are in this thread and extend back for years. He is a very simple man with very simple ideas about atheism that borders on vengeance toward religion. I am glad he feels free enough to express these feelings but there is room for refinement in his heart. Mankind has had to make the best of a bad situation and I am afraid our species is still rather primitive as evidenced by cult leaders like Trump.


btw Steve you say never compare anyone to Hitler but you are wrong.
The more parallels, common language and divisive hatreds there are, the more something should be said.

Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 30 Aug 18 - 05:14 AM

And as for Hasidic Jews, with their Tel Aviv side locks - randy rabbis and all!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: mg
Date: 29 Aug 18 - 05:53 PM

Just when you think they can not get any stupider read what cardinal from new zealand said on abuse tracker...basically they are just discovering people want concrete action and now tnat they understand that by golly, things are going to change.

Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 Aug 18 - 04:29 PM

My post had absolutely nothing to do with atheism and everything to do with taking people as I find them.

And cheers, Eliza.

Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: Senoufou
Date: 29 Aug 18 - 03:16 PM

Well Donuel, I don't find Steve's post about nuns anything but interesting and fair-minded. He merely points out that he has known some very nice nuns and that one shouldn't condemn all religious people in holy orders.
He has every right to disassociate himself from religious belief and to voice his strident objections to religious organisations and practices.

I got to know personally, through my prison work, a small convent of IBMV nuns (Institute of the Blessed Virgin Mary) who were involved with inmates in prison.
They ran all sorts of cookery and art classes for the offenders, and were kind, funny and sensible women of all ages.
I was often invited to tea in their small terraced house, and they were very pleasant to me.
They didn't wear habits, just ordinary clothes but with a small cross on a chain round their necks.
I even attended a 'house Mass' there and, despite being C of E, felt most welcome.

Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: Donuel
Date: 29 Aug 18 - 02:41 PM

My observance is from multiple posts. The reason I attempt to spar with you is because you are rational and a gentleman. In the spirit of refining dissent against small minded adherence to biblical 'fact' and repression of modern truth, there is space for the modern atheist to thrive. There is a less brazen and rude path you could follow to allow modern truths to self reform religion instead of inflaming the issue needlessly. I do not think it is a lost cause to create points of agreement rather than stress the most contentious arguments.

In a separate matter both my wife and I assisted Sister Mary Beth in Vatican research under Pope John on topics from Astronomy to Witchcraft in the modern age at Boston College.

Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 Aug 18 - 09:59 AM

Don't be so bloody rude and obnoxious. The post was honest.

Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: Donuel
Date: 29 Aug 18 - 09:52 AM

Steve your brand of atheism is so grating and obnoxious you probably do more harm than good. Most atheists are of the 'I just don't give a shit brand'. Your total evangelical bull shit brand of atheism doesn't impress anyone, bores everyone and makes you a very sad sounding person who is far from being a Renaissance man.

Your fellow atheist Donuel. - and definately not a fence sitter.
(just tugging your coat tails)

I'm sure we have all worked with Nuns on some level

Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Aug 18 - 04:01 AM

" she had clearly been working on her ugliness for years, and she looked catholic fierce!!!"
Every bit as vicious as the rapists and abusers Bozo - well done
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 28 Aug 18 - 06:29 PM

I worked with a lot of nuns when I taught in the East End of London in a Catholic school for seven years in the 1970s. I found them to be down-to-earth and pragmatic on the whole, expedient even, working as they were with some of the most deprived children in the country. Like any bunch of people, they were a mixed bunch. Old Sister Helen was seen as a harridan by the kids but she had a twinkle in her eye and I loved her despite her wilful nature. Sister Christine was a lovely, young, humanitarian person, a bridge between the older nuns and the kids. Sister Theresa was the head of the school and she was lovely with both staff and children, though she had her red lines and crossing her was unwise. She got me a council flat by encouraging me to go down the housing department in Poplar and lie in my teeth about my residency credentials. She told me to say that I lived in Pope John House, the nuns' house in Poplar, which I'd never even been to. She and I both got away with it and I got my flat! I hasten to add that plenty were available at the time so I didn't diddle anyone else out of somewhere to live - it was just a matter of defeating bureaucracy. That was seven years in Poplar, following seven years in a Catholic secondary school in Bolton, run by the Salesian order. Looking back, I can recall some rather antediluvian attitudes to lots of things, as well as some pretty rotten teaching, but in all those fourteen years of very close contact with Catholicism I didn't see or hear of any sexual abuse nor of any untoward, for its time, physical abuse or cruelty. I'm not saying this to defend in the least the depredations of those thousands of abusive priests, and, you know me, I'm no defender either of Catholicism or of any other faith. They're all total bullshit as far as I'm concerned. But let's just be fair to all those non-abusers, the vast majority I believe, who have the wellbeing of their charges to heart first and foremost. Please?

Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: Donuel
Date: 28 Aug 18 - 06:15 PM

If early detection means segregating 'weird guys' from anything and everything I suggest banning all members who ever posted in this BS section and have all males systematically Bobbitized.

no? Well then how about teaching the evils of a conspiracy of silence   to kids and adults alike.

Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: mg
Date: 28 Aug 18 - 05:51 PM

in abuse tracker today it says some nuns in scotland have been arrested.

Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 28 Aug 18 - 03:21 AM

We walked past a nun in Modra, Slovakia on Sunday - she had clearly been working on her ugliness for years, and she looked catholic fierce!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: Rapparee
Date: 27 Aug 18 - 11:07 PM

Verify, verify, verify. Take nothing for granted. Never assume. Don't be afraid to find out the truth. Let the chips fall where they may.

It's the only way to find out in this and everything.

Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: mg
Date: 27 Aug 18 - 07:58 PM

It is definitely homophobic and that should be addressed. But is it true or is it not true? Not the homophobia but the actions or inactions of the pope. Read abuse tracker each and every day. Today some horrible stuff coming out about nuns in a Vermont orphanage. Terrible sadism. And if there is any group of men forming any sort of mafia, clean them out. If you can. Mafias are not easy to break up and the real mafia has had links with highups in vatican for some time. Do not focus on what vigano's motives are. Is it true or is it not true? It was common gossip if not knowledge for some time about McCarrick. I knew it. If something needs to be rooted out, and abuse of seminarians needs to be, then go for it. If Donald Trump told y ou about it, check it out and follow through. If Mickey Mouse did, check it out and follow through. All this diversion about what Vigano's is trying to pull is probably true, but if what he says is true, and I think it is, about the pope..I can't follow all of his people he names...then check it out, verify it and insist on him behaving like at least a capable administrator.

Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: Joe Offer
Date: 27 Aug 18 - 07:36 PM

Steve Shaw says:

1. I would like to see is the Church ruthlessly and publicly outing every priest who is known to be or suspected to be a child abuser, now or in the past, dead or alive, all details handed to the police.
2. And all good Catholics, the Pope included, should disown the sainting of John Paul II, during whose long rule thousands of people continued to suffer abuse at the hands of his priests.

I'd agree with you on both, Steve. I think the Catholic Church is finally answering your first request quite well in most places. I never have had any respect for John Paul II, but I'm afraid I'm in the minority in the Catholic Church on that. I often find the Catholic Church to be alarmingly conservative, and John Paul II fit in well with that. Sometimes, I'm not so sure how well I fit in.

A little more on the letter from former Papal Nuncio Vigano that mg referred to - this morning, National Public Radio said Vigano's letter was homophobic and full of discrepancies.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: robomatic
Date: 27 Aug 18 - 02:34 PM

This latest contretemps leaves me at a loss for words (almost). It seems we are in an age where many of the established institutions we look to for ideological leadership are being challenged, and justifiably so. And even if you leave off the 'ideo' there is a real attack on logical leadership as well, from many sides of the media.
We are left with the principles and not the symbols, and it will be interesting to see if we can make do with the principles alone. People seem to need guides and representatives, 'icons' of the principles as steers and guides.

Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: Jack Campin
Date: 27 Aug 18 - 10:28 AM

In Scotland there have been as many reports of non-sexual abuse of children by nuns in orphanages - violent and degrading abuses of power.

My wife was talking to a nun she knew about this a while back. That nun actually wanted to be one. She thought that most the sadistic behaviour came from conscripts - women who were forced into becoming nuns by their families, which happened fairly often among the Catholic bourgeoisie until about a generation ago. They spent their entire adult lives resenting the situation they'd been forced into and making sure that as many people as possible suffered for it.

Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Aug 18 - 09:05 AM

"I'm not convinced that Francis has done anything wrong."
It's not a case of him doing wrong Joe - rather, he is being accused of doing nothing other than offering lip service to an ongoing crime

There's a very peceptive cartoom in this morning's Times showing The Pope high on a elevated platform with a hammer and chisel carving a huge statue made up of teh words, "Grave scandal, Pain and Shame, Corruption Repellant Clerical abuse"
The plinth reads "WORDS"
Next to him is an empty entitles "ACTIONS" - totally empty!
Sums it all up perfectly really

Irish Minister, Katherine Zappone has presented The Pope with The Governments summation of the scandal and what needs to be done in reparation - if I were a betting man I'd be queuing at the betting shop to place my bet on that one

Throughout his visit thousands of protestors have been demanding to know the names of members of the church hierarchy who colluded to hide what was going on and allowed it to continue - their pleass have been greeted with total silence
Outrageously, past Governments agreed to share the financial burden of reparation with the church out of our taxes (outrageous enough)
This is made more outrageous by the fact that the church still owes €1.3 BILLION OF ITS AGREED PORTION
It really isn't helping its case for all its public rallies, which, it is reckoned, will have cost Ireland €20,000,000
Utter madness
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Aug 18 - 07:02 AM

I never think that comparing anyone with Nazis is ever, ever helpful.

Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Aug 18 - 06:17 AM

If we all flail about intemperately over this, justice will not be done. The Church must be seen to be totally ruthless about cutting out every piece of that rot and it must be done publicly. I see little sign of this, unfortunately. The Pope goes to a Catholic country, smiles and waves a lot, does a big Mass and produces a litany of requests for forgiveness. That just fills me with gloom. He either takes this by the scruff or else the Church doesn't survive. Is that strong enough for you? Again, two things. First, the vast majority of ordinary Catholics, including priests, are not complicit in this. The Church is not a democracy so it relies on the people at the top to act. Sadly, I think most of the top men may well be complicit, by their silence if nothing else. Ordinary Catholics haven't got the power to shake up the hierarchy and the latter have plenty of backwoodsmen supporting them. Second, individual cases of abuse may range from isolated bouts of fondling through clothes in the vestry to out-and-out serial anal child rape over decades. Cover-ups range from a momentary turning of a blind eye to years of lying, conspiracy and shuffling evil men around the country to protect them from justice. Sorry to be so explicit, but the point is that we simply can't lock up every single perpetrator as if they've all done the same thing. Throwing-away-the-key syndrome for all is redolent of lynching, only with white gloves on, to misquote the Pope. But let's out them, every single one. They don't deserve privacy or protection. That's the beginning of the solution.

Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: Donuel
Date: 27 Aug 18 - 05:27 AM

When the policy remains to be a tight lipped silence, cover up and transfer of the guilty life long employees...
NO CLAIM THAT ABUSES AND RAPE HAVE ENDED, CAN BE BELIEVED.
I am shocked the rotten silence is still pervasive and goes to the top.


Eventual payback may be worse than imagined.
Anti Franciscans in the church will happily sell out the current Pope in exchange for corrupt business as usual at their own peril.

Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: Thompson
Date: 27 Aug 18 - 05:19 AM

"Best to take individual cases on their merits"? No. Not when an institution is riddled through and through with rot.

Before anyone shouts "Godwin!" may I make the comparison to the Nazis. This is like saying it's best to take every case of Jewish people being deported, robbed, tortured, murdered "on its merits".

The Catholic Church's hierarchy, from lay people to ordinary nuns and priests to Reverend Mothers, bishops, cardinals and popes, has been complicit in protecting abusers - like the priest,https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/news/catholic-church-helped-priest-accused-abu, who, instead of being investigated by police, was moved to drive the train at the Magic Kingdom in Disney World - a place where hundreds of thousands of children were available.

Not that the police were necessarily any less forelock-tugging and complicit.

Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Aug 18 - 04:59 AM

Well I'm a very simple man, Joe. So what I would like to see is the Church ruthlessly and publicly outing every priest who is known to be or suspected to be a child abuser, now or in the past, dead or alive, all details handed to the police. We want to see a gritty willingness to stop the rot, not a lot of simpering requests for forgiveness. And all good Catholics, the Pope included, should disown the sainting of John Paul II, during whose long rule thousands of people continued to suffer abuse at the hands of his priests. His canonisation revealed entirely the wrong kind of intent.

Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: Joe Offer
Date: 27 Aug 18 - 01:11 AM

Here's an article from the liberal National Catholic Reporter about the letter from former papal nuncio Vigano about McCarrick:

https://www.ncronline.org/news/accountability/former-ambassador-vigano-accuses-vatican-covering-mccarrick-scandal-years

And here's an article in the right-wing National Catholic Register, which includes the text of the Vigano letter:

http://www.ncregister.com/daily-news/ex-nuncio-accuses-pope-francis-of-failing-to-act-on-mccarricks-abuse

The National Catholic Register, owned by EWTN (Eternal Word Television Network), regularly publishes diatribes against Pope Francis from the notorious Cardinal Burke. Seems to me the publication has been working to depose Francis for quite some time.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: mg
Date: 26 Aug 18 - 11:46 PM

First of all everyone read the letter and do some background checking. Mccarrick was functioning as a cardinal until last month I think the pope should act when he hears about crimes and unsavory activities certainly a month Bishops and Cardinals or anyone really. What he did in Chile to abuse survivors and their supporters was awful. Bringing pal to Vatican when his cruelty to survivors was very well-known and very offencive to Australians who was off his lack of really doing much about the abuse situation has been horrifying he needs to appoint a powerful woman such as Mary mcaleese or she needs to just take the reins and run things. He is either inept or conspiratorial on this issue. I don't know what the problem is but it is very very serious. And I like them. But he's awful at this.

Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: Rapparee
Date: 26 Aug 18 - 11:20 PM

Okay, I've actually, really, truly walked in a minefield. We drove into it by accident and I had to "ground guide" the truck back out by walking backwards. Oh, yes -- there were four people in the back of the truck and the driver in front.

First, you are very, very careful where you put your feet.
Second, you move very, very slowly.
Thirdly, you pray a lot even if you're not especially religious.
Fourthly, that evening you get stinkin' drunk.

Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: Joe Offer
Date: 26 Aug 18 - 11:16 PM

What should he do, Steve? The fact of the matter, is that the child sexual abuse has dropped dramatically in the Catholic Church worldwide since 2000, that national councils of bishops have developed tough and consistent programs of dealing with abusers and preventing abuse, and that billions of reparations have been paid.

It does appear that the church agreed to pay millions of Euros of reparations in Ireland and that it has not completely paid that debt. Most of the bishops guilty of coverups have retired, died, or been sacked - which is what happens when an organization is led by old men.
What else needs to be done?

The center of the problem, sexual abuse of children, has largely been stopped.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Aug 18 - 06:55 PM

Seems to me, Joe, that he's actually refused to walk the minefield. He's done an awful lot of asking for forgiveness, etc., but that is simply circumventing the minefield that is properly his responsibility to walk through. We want to know what he's going to DO. And that is more than just the business of Roman Catholics. Perhaps you could enlighten us as to who the people are in the background who have turned him into a yet another papal man of marble.

Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: Joe Offer
Date: 26 Aug 18 - 05:05 PM

McCarrick is 88 years old. He retired from his position as Archbishop in 2006, and became ineligible to vote as a cardinal at the age of 80. Francis became Pope just five years ago, and yet people are trying to crucify Francis for not taking action against McCarrick.
I'm sorry, but I think McCarrick is a non-issue at this point.
-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: Joe Offer
Date: 26 Aug 18 - 04:43 PM

I'm not convinced that Francis has done anything wrong. He's walking a minefield, so he's not likely to make anybody happy. This is a horrible mess, and it's hard to see how anybody could solve it.
-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Aug 18 - 03:16 PM

His statement blamed the priests and the bishops and left his own house totally untouched - no word of the billion or so still owed to the victims
Mary McAleese was spot on - mealy-mouthed right wing ranting
Let them sink - they've blown their chances
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: mg
Date: 26 Aug 18 - 03:11 PM

He names a lot of names. And he goes on about the gay mafia. I personally am fine with every priest being gay, as long as around half are women. If they have adult partners in voluntary relationships, I do not care. None of my business. Now regardless of orientation, there are things you do not get to do. This is not conservative/liberal...it is lies against truth, willing against unwilling sex, decent versus corrupt dealings. It has all been cracked open today although the stench has been around for years. I don't want the pope to resign but someone else must be his executor in terms of the child abuse situation...and I don't know who that would be. Parolin seems creepy somehow. And I hope Vigano's health remains good. He mentions two bishops?? who died "prematurely" and something about a bishop?? dying "unexpectedly" or some other word. Since we had a pope in my lifetime who died "unexpectedly" along with many other of his cohorts, we should keep an eye on things. I hope someone reviews Milwaukee like they did Pittsburgh and Boston and looks at a current cardinal who is elsewhere now but seems to be keeping a low profile.

Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: mg
Date: 26 Aug 18 - 01:53 PM

The news today is going to end the church as we know it which is been in tatters for some time. Archbishop vigano has written a letter to the world saying the pope knew about mcgarrick's trouble with seminarians. As in coercive sex. I knew about this credibly accused Behavior years and years ago. There is no excuse. It does not matter how the politics pan out. The truth is the truth regardless of who exposes it. He is in Ireland right now saying nice words about something. He cannot weasel out of this. I like this post. But something is really really really wrong here. I think this problem is so embedded that only Massive Action by women will help and it will totally restructure the church. Read up on Mary Magdalene because that is more the beginnings of the church then the weird Saint Paul. Doing this on my cell phone so forgive any errors. Read all you can about this. It is probably equivalent to Martin Luther

Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Aug 18 - 03:06 AM

We went to Dublin for our regular 'fix' of films, which included the extremely sad and anger-inducing 'Apostasy', concerning the Jehovah's Witnesses refusal to allow the use of blood transfusions and their inhuman 'disfellowshipping' (forbidding contact with) 'fallen members'
It is a frighteningly depressing film describing inhuman abuse every bit as evil as clerical rape - its horror lay in its unsensational 'ordinariness'
Thank God I don'r believe in him!   
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: Rapparee
Date: 25 Aug 18 - 10:39 PM

As a member of the Knights of Columbus, I received the following by email the other day. As a side note, the K of C sells life insurance as one of its principal "missions" -- no, I don't have any from them. My main job is to be the drill instructor for the "Honor Guard" (if you've seen them, they're the guys in funny hats with swords and capes).

    August 21, 2018

    Worthy Chaplains and Dear Brother Knights,

    The issues that have come to light concerning sexual abuse by Archbishop Theodore McCarrick and in the Pennsylvania Grand Jury Report are cause for grave concern among Catholics and Brother Knights. Many feel deeply betrayed by those whom they long held in high regard. Such concerns are shared not just in the United States, but in Europe, Latin America and elsewhere.

    These sins of commission and omission have sent the Church we love, the Church we serve and the Church that Jesus Christ established into convulsions. Sadly, the disgrace not only is borne by the perpetrators, it hurts us all, as does the silence of shepherds who have ignored the cries of their flocks.

    There are many wonderful and faithful laborers in the vineyard of the Lord among our priests and bishops. However, it is clear that in addition to devastating criminal acts, we have seen many other moral failings by clergy that represent a crisis of commitment to the Gospel.

    Too often the needs of victims have been subordinated to a distorted sense of mercy toward the perpetrators or an instinct for clerical self-preservation. The sexual acts — both criminal and non-criminal — highlight the need to recover a respect for and a renewed commitment to the priestly promises of celibacy.
   
    The Knights of Columbus has supported the pastoral and charitable work of our bishops and priests since our founding by the Venerable Father Michael McGivney. We understand that the priest should lead the parish and the bishop should be the center of unity in a diocese. But we — like all Catholics — are painfully aware of the wreckage that ensues when elements of this leadership are abdicated by evil actions whether directly perpetrated or covered up.

    Now, the Knights of Columbus — laymen, priests and chaplains together — will have an important role to play in rebuilding the Church. We must commit the Knights of Columbus to work for repentance, reform and rebuilding of the Church.

    Repentance should include a full accounting of the misdeeds by those who have committed them. Archbishop McCarrick and others at fault owe us a full account of their actions, motivations and cover-ups. After years of having us confess to them, it is now time for them to come clean about what they have done and what they have failed to do.

    This will also help increase the recognition that clerical sexual abuse is a global problem that must be addressed at the highest levels of the Catholic Church. Moreover, priests and bishops who refuse to live according to their promises of celibacy should be removed from public ministry, not out of retribution, but for the protection of the faithful and to prevent future variations of the scandal we now suffer.

    Reform must include many good ideas that have been proposed, such as a full and complete investigation of sexual abuse led by an independent commission that includes laity; complete transparency by the Catholic hierarchy into all matters of criminal sexual misconduct past or future; an expansion of the zero tolerance policy to include sexual activity or misconduct by clerics including bishops, and by seminarians; and a call for faithfulness by all members of the clergy, including bishops. There must also be an independent ethics hotline for reporting of criminal and other conduct at odds with Catholic teaching on the clerical state of life; and there must be protections against retaliation.

    Such reforms will be difficult for a Church largely unused to them, and we must support our bishops and our priests in embracing these reforms in order to rebuild.

    We can help to rebuild our Church in several ways. Above all else, Knights — and our chaplains — must embrace love of God and love of neighbor. This is Christ’s great commandment and the founding mission of our Order. It is also exactly the opposite of the rejection of God and exploitation of neighbor that our Church has witnessed in these scandals.

    Shortly before becoming Pope Benedict XVI, Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger decried the “filth” in the Church “even among those, who in the priesthood, ought to belong totally” to Christ. He also provided the antidote, stating at other times that what the Church needs now more than anything else is “saints.” Pope Francis reiterated Pope Benedict’s sentiments in his letter on Aug. 20.

    In the days ahead, the Knights of Columbus will help renew our Church on a national level through a Novena of Masses in reparation for these sins that have so grievously wounded the Body of Christ. I take this opportunity to ask that you offer this Novena of Masses for our Church at your earliest opportunity.
   
    Beginning in November, the Knights of Columbus will sponsor, in cooperation with the Shrine of St. Jean Vianney in Ars, France, a national tour of the relic of the heart of this great patron saint of priests. In the coming weeks, I will share more details with you about this initiative.

    We will also continue to strengthen and rebuild our Church at the level of our families and parishes through our Building the Domestic Church program. Its twin elements of imbuing families with faith and strengthening parish life are critical to providing a Catholic Church that rebuilds based on the Gospel principles of love of God and love of neighbor. Together with our recently announced “Faith In Action” initiative, we will strive to make our parishes truly become, in the words of Pope Francis, “a family of families.”

    Now is the time for all brother Knights to stand steadfast in faith, as Catholics and as gentlemen. We will assist priests, bishops and our fellow Catholics in helping the Church chart a course for the future that puts Christ at the center, so that truly we may say, “Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven.”

    This is the moment in which Knights — including in a special way our priest members — can be part of a great renewal for good in our Church. And as we strive to follow the Lord more closely in the days ahead, may he deliver us from every evil and in his mercy graciously grant his Church peace and unity.

    In closing, know that your faithful witness and sacrifice can bring inspiration and hope to millions of your fellow Catholics. It will be needed in the days ahead more than ever before. And to every priest and bishop whose commitment and dedication to our Order and to our Church has been faithful and exemplary, please accept my gratitude in both a personal way and on behalf of the Knights of Columbus.

    Let each one of us prayerfully invoke the intercession of the Blessed Virgin Mary, so that in the words of St. Maximilian Kolbe, our hearts would be cleansed and themselves become immaculate, similar and like unto her own heart.

    Fraternally,

    Carl A. Anderson
    Supreme Knight

Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: keberoxu
Date: 25 Aug 18 - 12:18 PM

So His Holiness has arrived in Dublin and is off to Knock.
Sunday approaches...

Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: keberoxu
Date: 24 Aug 18 - 03:32 PM

I read that Dublin expects a rally on Sunday with a march. One of the Magdalene Laundry sites is on the route of the march.
Wonder if this will be big?

Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: Joe Offer
Date: 22 Aug 18 - 11:59 PM

I stated above what my diocese in Sacramento, California, did, but let me say it again: They offered victims counseling and a $25,000 or $40,000 no-questions-asked settlement, and reported incidents to police for criminal investigation. Many other dioceses did the same thing. They handled the matter honestly and with compassion. Many other dioceses did this, but far too many played games and tried to deny problems and avoid paying any compensation.

When the shit hit the fan in 2002, it all blew up in their faces. Dealing with victims became a bidding war, and finally the price went up to $1 million per victim. Our diocese had to come up with an additional $1 million for each victim, although those victims had already been compensated many years before. Many dioceses couldn't pay, so they ended up selling off assets and filing bankruptcy. I don't know how many victims have not been compensated, but I get the impression that has been settled for the most part in the U.S.

But there were some bishops who did some really devious things to cover up these crimes and to avoid compensation. For the most part, these bishops got away without punishment - although a few were convicted. This grand jury investigation in Pennsylvania finally gets to the heart of what the bishops were doing or not doing there. For the most part, the guilty parties have already died or retired, but I'm sure some heads will roll before this is done. And most likely, there will be grand jury investigations in other states.

If all dioceses had done what mine did half a century ago, I would imagine this would not be the scandal that it is today.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: mg
Date: 22 Aug 18 - 11:49 PM

i do not trust any treatment for any violent behavior that relies on someone taking his/her medications. yea..sure... i am for voluntary surgery, both castration and brain surgery to make sure that they can not and would have absolutely no desire or ability to hurt anyone any way. then and only then should they be allowed out of jail...or put in a nicer part of jail...if they could be perfectly made safe and hopefully have a somewhat pleasant life...i want to stop future crimes and i don't require that people be miserable forever if they choose a safe and permanent and irreversible solution.

and about the pope. he has done nothing, but worse, he has abused victims. read up on everything about the situation in Chile...i can not believe he is innocent here.

Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 22 Aug 18 - 11:28 PM

He has a one-track mind, Steve, and it always comes back to Nazis.

Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 22 Aug 18 - 01:37 PM

We're more civilised than that. Sorry. And this just won't do:

"...most of the senior people should be charged with felony child endangerment and jailed for life."

Fine if you'd said that they should be charged, tried, and, if found guilty, severely punished. Instead, you indulge in lynch mob speak. If our justice system can't be measured and balanced, it isn't a justice system at all. And you know me: I'm definitely no defender of the Catholic Church. I know this much, though: there are some good people therein.

Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: ollaimh
Date: 22 Aug 18 - 01:13 PM

and evil apologist who say "who is to blame?" are as bad as the child rapists. the whole organization is to blame for decades, probably centuries, of cover up of major crimes. when all the administrators who knew but did nothing adequate to see the rapists jailed should also be jailed. then they will stop the cover up.. once pedophiles know thr raping children church isn't a safe haven they will not have the protection they need to commit these vile crimes.

anyone who looking into these issues and studied them and worked within the church for the last several decades is complicit, most of those should be jailed for life. the apologists, rationalizers, hand wringers and cover up people are to blame. time for strict felony child endagermaent prosecutions nation wide until they lock up the lot of them for life.(and i note some of those aiders and abetters are nazi cover up people as well)

Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: ollaimh
Date: 22 Aug 18 - 01:07 PM

you can always count on our friends who aid and abet pedophiles coming out with spin to tell us all it was some bad apples, or that only a few did it. well the truth is the whole organization is complicit in a massive criminal conspiracy to cover up these major felonies and most of the senior people should be charged with felony child endangerment and jailed for life. nothing else will create a safe space for children in this corrupt and evil organization. msgr william lynne was on appeal for his pennslyvannia conviction for felony child endangerment. i hope the state wins that lynne was convicted not for child abuse but for his cover up, and not informing the parents in his area of the presence of pedophile priests.

look up the marcial case. he raped children in the hundreds for decades but raised millions for the rc (raping children) church. it's every where in that organizaton. they have a culture of cover up of major crimes. lock then up!!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: Senoufou
Date: 22 Aug 18 - 07:51 AM

That's most interesting Nigel.
I hope the victims of the other 70% who do re-offend are happy about that.

Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: Nigel Paterson
Date: 22 Aug 18 - 07:44 AM

I read the full text of the Pope's letter. In English it has the overtones of translation & as such, may suffer from under or over-nuancing. Quite how it will lead to fundamental change is beyond my ken at the moment

   The following abstract, despite it's age, remains pertinent. Copied from 'Psychiatry on Line'.


Are Sex Offenders Treatable? A Research Overview

Linda S. Grossman, Ph.D., Brian Martis, M.D., and Christopher G. Fichtner, M.D.
Published Online:1 Mar 1999https://doi.org/10.1176/ps.50.3.349

Abstract:

OBJECTIVE: Recent legislation in several states providing for civil commitment and preventive detention of sexually violent persons has stirred legal, clinical, and public policy controversies. The mandate for psychiatric evaluation and treatment has an impact on public mental health systems, requiring clinicians and public administrators to direct attention to treatment options. It is a common view that no treatments work for disorders involving sexual aggression. The authors examine this assumption by reviewing research on the effectiveness of treatment for adult male sex offenders. METHODS: MEDLINE was searched for key reviews and papers published during the years 1970 through 1998 that presented outcome data for sex offenders in treatment programs, individual case reports, and other clinically and theoretically important information. RESULTS: Although rigorous research designs are difficult to achieve, studies comparing treated and untreated sex offenders have been done. Measurement of outcome is flawed, with recidivism rates underestimating actual recurrence of the pathological behavior. Outcome research suggests a reduction in recidivism of 30 percent over seven years, with comparable effectiveness for hormonal and cognitive-behavioral treatments. Institutionally based treatment is associated with poorer outcome than outpatient treatment, and the nature of the offender's criminal record is an important prognostic factor. CONCLUSIONS: Although treatment does not eliminate sexual crime, research supports the view that treatment can decrease sex offense and protect potential victims. However, given the limitations in scientific knowledge and accuracy of outcome data, as well as the potential high human costs of prognostic uncertainty, any commitment to a social project substituting treatment for imprisonment of sexual aggressors must be accompanied by vigorous research.

Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Aug 18 - 12:16 PM

Every single headline response in our press to this visit has been a negative one
That has never happened in my lifetime
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: Donuel
Date: 21 Aug 18 - 12:07 PM

yep but there are some named guys who are stone walling.

Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: keberoxu
Date: 20 Aug 18 - 01:47 PM

I suppose you all already know about the latest
People Of God letter from the Vatican?

Here's a link.

dated 20 August 2018

Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: Donuel
Date: 20 Aug 18 - 01:38 PM

Joe I bow to your expertise in this area of study and that we think along different pathways.I wanted to tell you I have an unhatched idea that links the desperation of behavior in WWII and the behavior of caretakers. The concept is still unformed but I'm putting it out there anyway.

Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Aug 18 - 06:35 AM

Two cardinals have now pulled out of the Child Protection Conference in Dublin to face their own demons
Jim Caarroll

Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: Nigel Paterson
Date: 20 Aug 18 - 05:20 AM

Apologies to my American friends if you've already seen this. I hope it plays on both sides of the Atlantic.
             Press release

Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Aug 18 - 05:19 AM

We will not have justice if we paint everyone with the same broad brush, fail to take each case on its merits and judge a case from a long distance whilst far less in command of the facts of the case that those who are paid to investigate and prosecute it. And we will not have justice if we single out a particular kind of offender for throwing away the key.

Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: Senoufou
Date: 20 Aug 18 - 02:33 AM

ONE YEAR in jail??? One measly year?? You get that for shoplifting/dangerous driving here. He should have been given at least seven or eight years, and Sex Offenders Register for life.

However, there seems to be a policy of lenient sentencing for pervy priests. That 'Father' Tony McSweeney (the one I met and was blessed by) who abused boys in a children's home and had hundreds of images on his computer was given only three years.

Even as old men, paedophiles can still offend. At what age does a man become unable to have sexual feelings?

Nah. Don't let them out. Keep them inside and keep children safe.

Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: Joe Offer
Date: 20 Aug 18 - 01:22 AM

Hi, Rap - yes, there were nuns who molested students, too. My wife went to a Catholic high school in Rhode Island that had some residential students, and the resident students said there were some nuns they had to watch out for, because they'd make sexual advances.

In the late 1980s, I was friends with a priest in the Catholic Committee on Scouting in Sacramento. This priest, a member of the Salvatorian order, had been a scoutmaster while he served as a priest on a previous assignment in Alabama, and he was a strong supporter of the Boy Scouts while he was in Sacramento. For a while, I attended the Sacramento parish where this guy was pastor. He did an excellent job as a priest. He interacted with people well, and he made sense when he talked. He was nice to my kids, but the opportunity didn't arise for him to have much interaction with my kids.

I lost track of him when he transferred to Wisconsin in 2001. And then his name was in the news late last year:

Priest LED Away in Handcuffs after Judge Hands down 1-year Sentence for Sexual Contact with Child

By Ashley Luthern
Milwaukee Journal Sentinel
December 15, 2017

The Rev. Robert R. Marsicek, 75, who had been the subject of numerous complaints from parents over the years and escaped a criminal charge in 2013, appeared in Milwaukee Circuit Court on Thursday.
It started when she was in first grade, when she still had her baby teeth. Robert Marsicek, a priest she trusted, repeatedly molested her at a Catholic school in Wauwatosa. "My little self thought it was OK and I thought that this was normal," she said.
The girl, now 16, told a Milwaukee County Circuit Court judge how she cried herself to sleep or didn't sleep at all. She developed anxiety. She thought of hurting herself, even ending her life.
"I began to realize that he chose this for himself," she said. "He did this to me and I did not ask for it."
She asked Judge Mark A. Sanders to put Marsicek behind bars, even though prosecutors had recommended probation as part of a plea agreement.
Marsicek, 76, was convicted of touching the girl while at Pius X Parish and school in Wauwatosa between 2007 and 2011.
The girl told police the priest, known as "Father Bob," had grabbed her buttocks, touched her breast and reached under her jumper to "pat" her vagina on different occasions, according to the criminal complaint.
"I would love to see him spend the rest of his life in jail," she said. "I was told that he wouldn't because he's 'too old,' but why should I care about his age when he didn't care about mine?
"I will always have what he did to me in the back of my mind," she said.
Sanders listened intently and then, to the surprise of many in the courtroom, he sentenced Marsicek to one year in jail.
"Over a period of years, you repeatedly took sexual advantage of a young child — that by itself is grave conduct," Sanders told the priest. "It wasn't penetrative sex, it wasn't physically abusive sex, but there is no other way to describe it."
His conduct was compounded because he was a priest, Sanders said.
"It's not just an adult who has preyed upon the trust of a young child, but it is an adult who brings the weight of the church with them," he said. "The consequence of that is remarkable."
Marsicek originally faced three felony counts of first-degree sexual assault of a child but entered an agreement with prosecutors to plead guilty to fourth-degree sexual assault, a misdemeanor that involves sexual touching.
Marsicek apologized for his actions in court. His attorney and several others also spoke on his behalf, detailing his prior good work as a priest.
But Sanders said those deeds are now "tainted."
Marsicek was removed from ministry at St. Pius X Catholic Parish in Wauwatosa, Mother of Good Counsel Parish and School in Milwaukee and Wauwatosa Catholic School in 2013 after a teacher at Wauwatosa Catholic reported that Marsicek inappropriately touched a young girl.
At the time, Marsicek maintained he was just being affectionate and that any inappropriate touching was inadvertent. Since then, he has been placed on a "safety plan" through his religious order that includes counseling and ensuring he does not have contact with minors. He is still a priest.

Marsicek had a history of questionable contact with children during his 12 years at St. Pius X and had been counseled repeatedly by the archdiocese and his religious order, the Society of the Divine Savior, or Salvatorians, to stop touching them, according to documents obtained by police in 2013.

The sentence of jail time sends an important message to Marsicek and to the public, said Peter Isely of the Survivors Network of those Abused by Priests (SNAP).
"He's going to feel what it's like to have his freedom confined and taken from him, in the way that he took it from this young child," Isely said. "It is a prison for many survivors when these things happen to them."

So, I don't know what to think or what to say. This was somebody I knew and trusted, and I thought I would be more likely than others to pick up on misconduct by priests - but I didn't suspect anything, and it's clear that very few people had any reason to suspect him.

This line bothered me: "His attorney and several others also spoke on his behalf, detailing his prior good work as a priest." I think it's true, that he did good work and had a positive effect on many people. He was a good guy, and I liked him a lot. But his crimes invalidated all the good that he might have accomplished, because the people he helped now feel betrayed. But still, I hope that something happens that puts things back in order for him. I don't know what that will be.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: Rapparee
Date: 19 Aug 18 - 09:33 PM

I don't see any way at this time to treat pedophiles so that they are "cured." A person convicted of pedophilia can, I think, only be segregated from society, given whatever treatment is available, and left in a comfortable (albeit spartan) environment. No chance to interact with children -- a life of "prayer and penance" if you will. Perhaps when they are old they can be released under supervision.

The Pennsylvania report shows that many of the offenders are dead. Such action were not unknown to the Church and I think that much of the disgust and horror of the laity and everyone stems from the Church's refusal to acknowledge these crimes and simply shunt the offender around.

Nuns are not exempt. They, too, did their share of abuse and I don't mean slapping hands. Read the reports in the Bishop Accountability website I posted earlier. And they, too, were shunted around....

Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: Senoufou
Date: 19 Aug 18 - 06:57 PM

UK prisons strictly segregate sex offenders from other inmates. They have their own wing, and even on Visits they sit in completely separated areas.
There are at least eight prisons here which are solely for sex offenders. (for example, HM Prison Bure, on the site of the old RAF airfield at Coltishall, Norfolk with over 500 inmates.)
And while they're locked in there they aren't harming or ruining the lives of children.

Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: Joe Offer
Date: 19 Aug 18 - 06:25 PM

I've studied this issue of child sexual abuse for a long, long time, and I still have no answers. I started wondering about it when I was a Catholic seminary student in the late 1960s. We had to go through an extensive battery of tests, concluding with an interview with a psychiatrist. And then one Monday morning, 9 of my classmates were gone - with no explanation. They tended to be the weird guys in the class, so we surmised their removal had something to do with sexual problems. The diocese said they were doing testing to make sure that no "problem people" made it into the priesthood.

And then in the 1970s, many U.S. Catholic dioceses sank millions of dollars into state-of-the-art treatment centers for priests. The psychiatrists who ran the centers told the bishops that priests with sex or alcohol or mental problems would be fully cured after 6 to 12 months of residential treatment. The returning priests were certified as ready for duty, and the bishops believed them.

But then in the mid-1980s, the independent weekly National Catholic Reporter (NCR) began to publish articles about sexual abuse by priests. It wasn't until a 2002 Boston Globe series of articles, that the abuse scandal came to the knowledge of the general public. The U.S. Catholic bishops began discussing the problem in 1985, but did not come up with procedures for responding until after the Globe articles in 2002. Until 2002, each individual diocese followed its own procedures. My Sacramento diocese and many others offered victims counseling and a $25,000 or $40,000 no-questions-asked settlement, and reported incidents to police for criminal investigation. But many dioceses did all sorts of game-playing and coverups to evade responsibility. But overall, the U.S. Catholic Church has handled the problem reasonably well since 2002.

But there still really aren't any answers or understanding. Nigel says paedophilia is an incurable disorder, and I tend to believe him. But if that's the case, how does one respond to this disorder? Certainly, our primary obligation is to protect children from sexual abuse. But if the offender can't help himself, then certainly he deserves some level of compassion. Life in prison would remove the offender from the opportunity to commit crime, but prison inmates known to have abused children are often murdered or raped by other inmates.

So, I just don't know how our society should respond to this crime of child sexual abuse.

This Pennsylvania report is challenging to read. Responses by the Catholic dioceses to Child sex abuse have not been uniform. Sometimes, the response is compassionate and appropriate, sometimes it's confused and clumsy, sometimes it's callous and cold, and sometimes it appears that church officials were just plain running scared and didn't know what to do.

It's a mess, and the mess hasn't been fixed yet. Nobody knows how to fix the mess, so who's to blame?

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: Donuel
Date: 19 Aug 18 - 03:58 PM

Joe In the DC area this tragedy orbits around Mr. Wurle who has a high rank in the GOD Business and resides in town. So we get so see many local stories, confessions and victim statements that probably do not leave the area.
I am not saying the victims are equally male and female however the perpetrators and accessory criminals are exclusively male.

Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: Nigel Paterson
Date: 19 Aug 18 - 01:43 PM

This longish article in Wikipedia lays out current thinking regarding pædophilia from a psychiatric point of view:
               Article

To Donuel, most surely, where there is life there is hope. Your elegant prose: "For the throng of society it takes too long for the deranged to change". This is painfully true..."Lock 'em up & throw away the key...chemical castration, etc, etc.. "Today's society demands instant solutions; society must be protected & rightly so.
      
To Joe & Steve, law enforcement & mental health professionals need a protocol that alerts an integrated team. Imprisonment combined with rehabilitation has been the stated aim in the US & UK for a good long time, but the results are very uneven with too many, catastrophic releases, often exacerbated by offenders not taking prescribed medication.

I haven't looked into the research, but I suspect genetics will play an increasingly important rôle.

I have training & experience & anecdotes aplenty... answers have I none, but these measured exchanges are a microcosm of the macrocosmic debate, alluded to by Jim.

I fear the cost of 'getting it right' would be astronomical.

Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: Senoufou
Date: 19 Aug 18 - 12:37 PM

If paedophilia is a disorder, and the 'sufferers' of it are not criminals, it is still surely imperative to exclude them from society in some form of closed institution.
Somewhere rather like Broadmoor.

Children's safety and protection should be paramount.

I watched a recent documentary about paedophiles in a USA prison. They had had endless therapy by specialists, yet were still considered to be a danger and unfit for release.

I'm so sorry Nigel that you have been a victim of sexual abuse.

Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Aug 18 - 12:22 PM

"Is life in prison the only answer?"
It isn't any answer Joe, it's a combination of forcible suppression and revenge
Rather than helping sexual aberrations it adds to them
Until this whole affair is discussed in full and all possible causes examined by qualified people it will remain a major problem

I don't think the hierarchy of the Church is within a million miles of allowing that to happen - two much unwashed dirty linen
Meanwhile, the Church continues to fight to hold onto its old influence
They ahre clinging onto their grip on education and are opposing moves to outlaw the demanding of Baptismal certificates, despite the widespread shortages of schools.
The are still opposing the referendum result on same sex couples and the Pope (or his gofers) has made it clear that homesexuals are not welcome at his knees-up.
The Bishops have issued an edict that Church run hospitals should defy the law and refuse to carry our pregnancy terminations - this has, to some degree, spread to secular hospitals
The Church seems to be declaring war on the Government and the will of the Irish people
If only the Pope still had an army eh?
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Aug 18 - 12:04 PM

Surely the point of imprisonment should be to remove people from society who are a danger, and try to rehabilitate them...

Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: Joe Offer
Date: 19 Aug 18 - 11:35 AM

Nigel, if paedophilia is an incurable disorder, how should law enforcement respond to it? Is life in prison the only answer? If it is a disorder, is it a crime?

Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: Donuel
Date: 19 Aug 18 - 11:34 AM

There is hope for the innate wiring and understanding of the brain to change because where there is life there is hope. For the throng of society it takes too long for the deranged to change.
Onward and upward Nigel.

Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: Nigel Paterson
Date: 19 Aug 18 - 10:46 AM

Donuel, I encountered both psychopathic & sociopathic presentations. The lone operator & those for whom 'sharing' was integral to their pathology. One of my colleagues found it impossible to work with patients who had sexually abused children; a not uncommon reaction. Pædophilia, a psychiatric disorder, is no more 'curable' than homosexuality, despite the actions & beliefs of sections of society. I cling to the hope that there will always be an individual who forms a new understanding of their behaviour; resets the boundaries & establishes the necessary controls to resist the monstrous drive to sexually abuse a child.
                                        Nigel Paterson(former psychotherapist & survivor of 'clerical abuse'.)

Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Aug 18 - 05:28 AM

The Irish immigration department have refused visas to at least five Pakistani priests wishing to attend the Pope's visit on the grounds that "they are not closely enough connected with the event"
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Aug 18 - 03:27 AM

It's interesting to see how the Church are handling he Pope's forthcoming visit to Ireland - not particularly well
Our papers are full of critical articles and letters, mainly from the faithful on his lip-service meaningless apology for decades of clerical abuse and it hasn't helped that Mary McAleese, one of the two most influential Presidents in Irish history has been told that 'there are not tickets' for her to attend the Rally
Mary, a devout Catholic, has now publicly described the appearances at Phoenix Park and Knock as "right-wing rallies"
As far as Ireland is concerned, the Church has been at the crossroads of survival for some time now - crass stupidity and a refusal to face up to responsibility is rapidly becoming the deciding factor.
It isn't helping that they still owe the victims of institution €1.3billion
in agreed reparation
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: Rapparee
Date: 18 Aug 18 - 11:50 PM

You can find more info, lots more info, here. There's also this.

Celibacy does not, by itself, cause the problems under discussion. Priests have, for centuries, had concubines, mistresses, even wives (e.g., the Bishop of Galway). Chaucer's Host says of the Monk,

Thou woldest han been a trede-foul aright.        
Haddestow as greet a leve, as thou hast might        
To parfourne al thy lust in engendrure,        
Thou haddest bigeten many a creature.

Chaucer was actually not kind to the Prioress, either.

Four years ago, priests' wives and mistresses reminded the Vatican that they actually exist.

I can personally name three or four priests who left the priesthood and married the women they were "seeing" and another who left but did not marry his "friend." The last was seen almost nightly entering her home and leaving in the morning -- people merely smiled and winked. Mind you, all involved were adults! I suspect that if a priest or any religious who abused children would not have had a long lifespan left after the parents found out!

Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: Joe Offer
Date: 18 Aug 18 - 06:11 PM

Donuel says: In this case as many little girls were raped as little boys.

Which case is this, Donuel? I'm having trouble finding statistical information in the Pennsylvania report. The 887-page report gives a lot of information, but I haven't found a statistical analysis of the data collected in the investigation.

The most comprehensive study I know of, is the 2004 John Jay Report (click) conducted by the John Jay College of Criminal Justice, commissioned by the U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops. For most of the crimes listed, boys were victims about 4 times as often as girls. The introduction to the Pennsylvania report says that most of the 1,000 victims were boys, but that there were also girls.

MG, now that I've looked through the Pennsylvania report, it's clear that the crimes covered by the report had already been dealt with by some sort of settlement or criminal prosecution. The report's introduction says that most likely there were thousands of other cases that were not reported, or for which records had been lost or destroyed.

What this Pennsylvania report does, is a comprehensive study of how dioceses handled the crimes that were reported to them - a study focused not on the abusers, but on the management of the dioceses and their response to this abuse. And it's not a pretty picture. The report covers six dioceses - and not one of these dioceses responded to these crimes in what I would consider to be an admirable fashion. Not one. Maybe they did the right thing under certain bishops but not under others - I haven't gotten to that point yet.

The Archdiocese of Philadelphia was covered in a grand jury investigation a few years ago, and that investigation resulted in convictions of some leaders in the diocese. I don't know what happened in the eighth diocese in the state, which was covered in another grand jury report.

In 2002, the U.S. Catholic bishops set up a fairly good system for preventing and responding to incidents of child sexual abuse by priests and by church employees. It did not, however, set any standards for bishops. This grand jury report is a good start on that path. I wonder how the bishops will respond.

-Joe-

P.S. This is a very long report, but the introduction is of manageable length. Please take the time at least to read the introduction to the Pennsylvania report (click).

Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: Donuel
Date: 18 Aug 18 - 03:48 PM

I am sure the 300 perpetrators have the distinguishing details of the social psychopath Nigel.

The perps and pervs have unique ideals. Their history however is violent and violating.

The victims are above 1,000 but those affected are probably over 10,000

Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: mg
Date: 18 Aug 18 - 01:31 PM

Joe...the people who issued the report did not say that most of the abuse has been exposed already. No. What they said was they were sure they had not gotten them all and that many thousands are probably not reported.

Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: Senoufou
Date: 18 Aug 18 - 09:24 AM

I disagree Steve. Six feet under in a wooden box, he'd never be a danger to children ever again.

Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Aug 18 - 09:17 AM

That wouldn't help.

Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: Senoufou
Date: 18 Aug 18 - 08:14 AM

It is preferred that Muslim Imams should be married, according to my husband. Of course, marriage doesn't necessarily guarantee that a man will never desire sex with children. (eg fathers abusing their offspring, in spite of having a wife)

I agree with Nigel above - paedophiles craftily seek out certain professions/volunteering/sports coaching etc positions in order to gain access to children.

I have read that some paedophiles convince themselves that their victims actually 'love' them and enjoy the sex. An idea I find particularly sickening.

I once refused to give a newly-released sexually-abusing father of twin girls in my class an interview about their educational progress unless my headmistress was present. (He was forbidden to live with them of course after his release)
He sat there saying how much he 'loved' his daughters and was 'so proud of them'. I felt sick. He must have read our faces, but he was as brazen as they come. The twins were 12 years old, so his sentence must have been fairly short. They should have thrown away the key. Or shot him.

Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: Nigel Paterson
Date: 18 Aug 18 - 07:28 AM

Some passing thoughts...the Greek Orthodox Church encourages/prefers it's priests to be married. However, if a priest marries, they cannot be appointed a bishop or higher.

I can find no research papers linking celibacy to sexual abuse.

It is likely that individuals who're sexually attracted to children choose occupations like the priesthood because it provides them with a seemingly perfect cover for their activities.

As a former psychotherapist, I have worked with both victim & perpetrator. For the most part, I found the perpetrators to be devious, manipulative & possessing a grossly distorted view of their actions & consequent effects. They know precisely what to say & do to convince health professionals they will not re-offend in order to return to their deviant behaviour. It is a form of sexual addiction, deeply rooted within the psyche of the individual.

Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: Donuel
Date: 17 Aug 18 - 10:15 PM

In this case as many little girls were raped as little boys.

Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 17 Aug 18 - 08:33 PM

Is there something in the bible that says it still counts as celibacy if they are only kids...???????????

Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: Donuel
Date: 17 Aug 18 - 05:29 PM

Sorrow and shame, sorrow and shame.
Vatican response

Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: robomatic
Date: 17 Aug 18 - 12:55 AM

No need, Rapparee.

Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: Rapparee
Date: 16 Aug 18 - 08:45 PM

I didn't include Scientology because I thought that the problems there were too well known to bother with. I can research it if you like, but it is very rampant and the teachings are odd.

Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: Joe Offer
Date: 16 Aug 18 - 08:12 PM

The Fresh Air (click) radio program had an interview last week of filmmaker Jennifer Fox. Fox's movie, "The Tale," as it was called, was based on Fox's own experiences with her male running coach and female horseback riding coach — which Fox considered normal at the time: "I wrote at 13 with no concept of abuse at all," she says. "It was a love story; it was a relationship."

At the time it was happening, Fox felt she was in love with her coaches, although she vomited every time the male coach had sex with her. Fox says it wasn't until she was about 40 years old, that she came to understand that she was being abused all those years ago. This was a shocking revelation to me - that at the time it was happening, many of the victims did not understand the harm that was being done to them. No wonder it took so long for these decades-old crimes to come to light.

It's clear that Fox is still struggling to understand what happened to her and to the teachers she loved and trusted. She felt that these two adults were the only people in the world who loved and understood her - and part of her still feels that way.

This program is worth a listen, but I'm not sure it will be playable outside the U.S.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: Senoufou
Date: 16 Aug 18 - 06:47 PM

In UK prisons, so my many inmates I worked with told me, there is very little 'rape' going on. None of them had experienced it and none had heard of it happening on the wings either.

If celibate priests cannot control their sexual urges, why do they not make secret assignations with women? (I actually think quite a few do)
Why turn to paedophilia?

And maintaining that paedophile clerics are not evil would I'm sure be met with rage by their victims.
Sexually abusing children IS evil.

Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: robomatic
Date: 16 Aug 18 - 06:28 PM

Various points taken (what Rapparee, no Scientologists?).

I agree that power can bring out the abuser latent among us.

BUT.

I think more research should be done on the very point I raised. Does institutionalizing celibacy result in derangement of what otherwise would be normal drives. Look at what happens in prisons. Much of the rape that occurs there is among heterosexuals.

I remember a scene from a cop show I saw years ago. A cop is beating the crap out of a wreck of a guilt-riddled molester. The molester is barely able to get the words out: "YOU'RE WORSE than me! I can't help what I do, but YOU CAN!"

Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Aug 18 - 10:41 AM

"In my couple-of-years " -damned keyboard
Should read "In my couple-of-years in London bed-sits"
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Aug 18 - 07:15 AM

"Best to take individual cases on their merits, I think."
Me too - without maximum sentencing wwe would have more jails than houses

In my couple-of-years I befriended a music teacher with whom I became very friendly
He once told me that he was becoming extremely worried about his feelings towards some of his young girl pupils
He told me one drunken night that he intended to commit suicide if he ever found he couldn't control those feelings
Because I have always been an admirer of women doesn't mean I am a potential rapist
I've always believed that abuses such as these are mainly a mixture of weakness and abuse of power - as opposite as they may seem.
Clerical did what they did because their position allowed them to; as with the physical abuse mane of those in their care experienced, it was a manifestation of extreme power
Even homosexuality didn't feature in the equation - like same sex in prisons, they availed themselves of what was available to them

I think "evil" is a far too important and useful a word to be overused - Brendan Smythe and his ilk displayed traits of evil, most of the rest were somewhat pathetically weak, and in some ways, victims of their own weaknesses
The real criminals were those who covered the crimes up and allowed them to continue   
One of the few 'good' (reservedly) things to have come out of the whole mess is that the church will vener again be in a position to behave as they did; (hopefully) those days are gone forever
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Aug 18 - 05:28 AM

Best to take individual cases on their merits, I think.

Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: Senoufou
Date: 16 Aug 18 - 03:27 AM

I think we're confusing sexual frustration due to enforced celibacy and rampant paedophilia.

I had a friend who was the daughter of a very respected Methodist minister. Her parents seemed happy, but for years during her childhood her father had secretly sexually abused her.

I think paedophiles find that being scoutmasters, choirmasters, youth sports coaches, orphanage workers, priests, charity workers in disaster areas abroad etc gives them easy access to vulnerable children.

Once convicted, I wouldn't ever release them again. They present a danger well into their old-age.

Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: Joe Offer
Date: 16 Aug 18 - 02:56 AM

I wonder what the Pennsylvania grand jury uncovered that was new information. The report released this week covered 6 of the 8 Catholic dioceses in Pennsylvania. There were 1,000 victims, and 300 priests were accused of the crimes about - 8 percent of the 5,000 priests who served in Pennsylvania during the 70-year period covered by the report. I'm sure that most, if not all, of the crimes have already been exposed, but a study like this gives a clear vision of the scope of the crimes, which is staggering. While the individual crimes may not be new reports, there is certainly new information about the misconduct of bishops in covering up these crimes.

Here's an article about the grand jury report. It's from the National Catholic Reporter, which was the first publication to report incidents of sexual abuse by priests - and it has been reporting this story continuously since 1983:

https://www.ncronline.org/news/accountability/grand-jury-over-300-priests-accused-sexual-assault-covered-bishops

Grand jury reports on the two other Pennsylvania dioceses (Philadelphia and one other) were completed a while ago.

I would like to see comprehensive investigations like this done in every diocese.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: Rapparee
Date: 15 Aug 18 - 10:26 PM

LDS (Mormons).
Baptists.
Methodists.
Mennonite.
Haredim.

And many, many others. It's not only celibacy (none of the above have celibate ministers or leaders), but like rape it's a crime of violence, power, and a violation of trust.

Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Aug 18 - 08:48 PM

I'll try to get my head round the concept that a man with a predilection for little boys can be cured by his taking a wife.

Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: robomatic
Date: 15 Aug 18 - 08:46 PM

Sorry.
Did not spell correctly nor describe the phenomenon of Pon farr .

Subject: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: robomatic
Date: 15 Aug 18 - 08:44 PM

I knew during the Boston scandals that this was just the beginning. Boston folks are no more prone to be abusers or abused than any other localities.

Abuse and coverups have been publicized in Australia in the recent past, and now big time in Philadelphia. We have first class movies closely linked to events which deal with organized abuse and coverup. Primary in my mind are two greats: Philomena. Spotlight.

You do not mess with basic human drives without consequences. Think of the forces within nature which one sublimates at one's peril. Think of grass bursting through sidewalks, of water wearing down rock, of Spock during pan farr. You can legislate, you can regulate, you can perorate, but everyone does it, or there be consequences.

Deuteronomy says thou shalt not muzzle the ox when it treads the grain.

In early church history, priests could have spouses
. It's time to consider giving priests some options. Marry after ordination, get neutered, or join a twelve step program addressing this basic drive.