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BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations

Steve Shaw 12 Nov 18 - 05:49 PM
Joe Offer 12 Nov 18 - 04:34 PM
Thompson 06 Nov 18 - 05:58 PM
mg 06 Nov 18 - 04:05 PM
mg 05 Nov 18 - 12:15 PM
Joe Offer 03 Nov 18 - 04:06 PM
Steve Shaw 03 Nov 18 - 03:01 PM
ollaimh 03 Nov 18 - 02:01 PM
ollaimh 10 Sep 18 - 08:15 PM
Thompson 09 Sep 18 - 09:42 AM
Joe Offer 09 Sep 18 - 02:25 AM
ollaimh 08 Sep 18 - 08:22 PM
Rapparee 06 Sep 18 - 10:23 PM
ollaimh 06 Sep 18 - 04:22 AM
Steve Shaw 01 Sep 18 - 06:28 AM
Rapparee 31 Aug 18 - 10:05 PM
Donuel 31 Aug 18 - 09:54 PM
Bonzo3legs 30 Aug 18 - 05:14 AM
mg 29 Aug 18 - 05:53 PM
Steve Shaw 29 Aug 18 - 04:29 PM
Senoufou 29 Aug 18 - 03:16 PM
Donuel 29 Aug 18 - 02:41 PM
Steve Shaw 29 Aug 18 - 09:59 AM
Donuel 29 Aug 18 - 09:52 AM
Jim Carroll 29 Aug 18 - 04:01 AM
Steve Shaw 28 Aug 18 - 06:29 PM
Donuel 28 Aug 18 - 06:15 PM
mg 28 Aug 18 - 05:51 PM
Bonzo3legs 28 Aug 18 - 03:21 AM
Rapparee 27 Aug 18 - 11:07 PM
mg 27 Aug 18 - 07:58 PM
Joe Offer 27 Aug 18 - 07:36 PM
robomatic 27 Aug 18 - 02:34 PM
Jack Campin 27 Aug 18 - 10:28 AM
Jim Carroll 27 Aug 18 - 09:05 AM
Steve Shaw 27 Aug 18 - 07:02 AM
Steve Shaw 27 Aug 18 - 06:17 AM
Donuel 27 Aug 18 - 05:27 AM
Thompson 27 Aug 18 - 05:19 AM
Steve Shaw 27 Aug 18 - 04:59 AM
Joe Offer 27 Aug 18 - 01:11 AM
mg 26 Aug 18 - 11:46 PM
Rapparee 26 Aug 18 - 11:20 PM
Joe Offer 26 Aug 18 - 11:16 PM
Steve Shaw 26 Aug 18 - 06:55 PM
Joe Offer 26 Aug 18 - 05:05 PM
Joe Offer 26 Aug 18 - 04:43 PM
Jim Carroll 26 Aug 18 - 03:16 PM
mg 26 Aug 18 - 03:11 PM
mg 26 Aug 18 - 01:53 PM

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Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 Nov 18 - 05:49 PM

I think that it's very important to confront honestly all the allegations against clerics in the Church. I haven't got a lot of time for any organised religion, but I know that there are thousands of priests, bishops and nuns, as well as devout Catholic laypersons, who must feel devastated by all this. What a shame that the Church has effectively institutionalised the issue by denial, reluctance to act and covering up. The institution has let Catholicism down big time. What the Church does now is key to the future. We need to see honesty, openness, quick action and contrition. I'm a cradle Catholic, well-lapsed of course, and I've been educated and been an educator for decades in Catholic schools, working with many priests, brothers and nuns. I saw no sex abuse and I can tell you (having worked for a long time in non-Catholic sectors as well) that all those people seemed no better or worse than anyone else. If the issue is not confronted there'll be a gathering storm, even worse than now. In the British Labour Party there were accusations of institutional antisemitism. Almost all Labour members were devastated by the accusations. The party acted quickly and openly and held an enquiry that was very public. The storm has been somewhat staunched, though not completely killed off. That's how it goes. There will always be people out to get you, no matter how hard you try to right the wrongs. The Church has got to do the right thing, quickly and fully in the public eye.


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Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: Joe Offer
Date: 12 Nov 18 - 04:34 PM

This article quotes the head of SNAP (Survivors Network of those Abused by Priests) as saying nearly one-third of U.S. bishops have been accused of mishandling claims of sexual abuse. I'm guessing that many of those accusations involve bungled situations and not intentional misconduct, so I'm sticking with my ten percent figure for now.

At least in my seminary in the 1960s, we got no training on how to handle complaints of child sexual abuse - that training is now given to all employees and volunteers who work in my diocese. Handling such complaints is not as straightforward as it seems, because the natural inclination is not to believe accusations of sexual misconduct against young priests who seem so nice. Employees and volunteers are now instucted to report all such questions to both law enforcement and church management, and leave the sorting to professionals.

At their meeting this month, the U.S. bishops were set to vote on proposals for dealing with misconduct by bishops. At the last minute, they received a Vatican to postpone that vote until after the international meeting on the subject that will take place early next year. I suppose that makes sense, but such delays are frustrating and disappointing.

-Joe-


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Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: Thompson
Date: 06 Nov 18 - 05:58 PM

What astonishes me is how this happened. 1800 years or so of - mostly - civil behaviour by priests (from which I except Thomas à Becket, whose row with the king was over whether the state or the church should try an abusive priest who killed his victim's father when he objected to his "seduction of his daughter). Anyway, apart from Tom, mostly decent priests and nuns dedicated to service and goodness.

Then… what? Power, I suppose: power over whole societies which didn't dare resist them; the power to imprison women and sell children, and have no one say them nay, under the pretence of "saving" them.


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Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: mg
Date: 06 Nov 18 - 04:05 PM

Recent boston globe article says 30% of living bishops. Even that sounds low. Do we know how many actually reported offensives, say since 2002 or so when at the very least they should have seen the writing on the wall. I think many were trying to protect church assets, and I don't blame them, but some were totally willing (aka pell and others) to be totally cruel to victims..oh dear..so was the pope in chili. I am thinking a bishop in us who reported anything to anybody would be an absolute outlier but I could be wrong. And those international bishops who declared at a synod this just was not a problem in their dioceses are beyond belief.


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Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: mg
Date: 05 Nov 18 - 12:15 PM

I don't think it was not even 10%. Something I read recently said it was now with existing Bishops somewhere between 30 to 50% and and in previous years it seems like almost all of them. I think we need to know what the truth is and if there are Scholars here who have access to this information if we could get a somewhat accurate estimate and that would be good. I think there's no way in hell it's 10%


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Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: Joe Offer
Date: 03 Nov 18 - 04:06 PM

I've been awake for a long time, ollaimh. When I was in the seminary in the 1960s, the Catholic Archdiocese of Milwaukee put us through an extensive [and intrusive and embarrassing] battery of psychological testing and psychiatrist interviews, in an attempt to weed out seminarians who should not be ordained priests because they might be likely to commit sex crimes. Other dioceses were doing similar screening. They believed this would solve the problem.

In the 1970s, Catholic dioceses in the United States built expensive, state-of-the art treatment centers for priests who had problems with addictions and sexual misconduct. They believed this would certainly solve the problem, and they felt safe about reassigning priests to new parishes. That backfired.

At least since the 1980s, my current home diocese of Sacramento has had a standard, immediate response to allegations of sexual misconduct by priests:
  • Report the offending police for criminal investigation
  • Offer counseling to victims
  • Offer no-questions-asked, immediate settlements to victims - $25,000 for lesser offenses, and $40,000 for major offenses like child molestation.
Not every diocese followed this common-sense practice, but many did. It didn't completely solve the problem, but it helped. Since 1986, U.S. insurance companies have refused to insure Catholic dioceses against sexual misconduct by priests, so the dioceses have paid claims out of their own funds. Earlier claims were paid by insurance.

There were some bishops who covered up offenses (some out of fear and some out of malice), but certainly not even ten percent. But if one diocese had a practice of covering up offenses, that could quickly add up to a large number of offending priests and an even larger number of victims. And since bishops get moved around, more dioceses could be affected than there were offending bishops. It didn't seem to matter whether the bishops were liberal or conservative - some of each covered up these crimes, and thus were guilty of crimes themselves.

And of course, many of the crimes were covered up by ecclesiastical functionaries without the bishop knowing. And many crimes were committed that were not covered up. And many other crimes were committed that the victims did not report.

The result was a relatively large number of crimes and victims and a relatively small number of people committing the crimes. There were crimes in every diocese in the United States, and most probably in every diocese in the world. But most bishops did not cover up the crimes, and most Catholics were only slightly aware the crimes were happening.

But yes, I was aware such crimes were happening as far back as the 1960s, and I'm sure almost all priests and bishops were also aware. But I was also aware that even back in the 1960s, Catholic dioceses were doing a lot to prevent and control and respond to crimes of the sexual abuse of children. Those measures failed to prevent all these crimes, and that is a shame and a scandal. Those who committed the sex crimes and the coverups must be investigated, prosecuted, and punished; and the victims must be compensated. We Catholics want this matter to be resolved, settled, and ended. It's our children who were the victims.

-Joe Offer-


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Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 Nov 18 - 03:01 PM

Unfair.


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Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: ollaimh
Date: 03 Nov 18 - 02:01 PM

joe, wake up--from the beginning catholic authorities have done everything they can to kept their criminal activities secret and to protect criminals. they have a long term committment to protecting the most evil people possible and all their adherants are culpibable. it is the worst of the many demoniac christian religions. and you can tell their evil by their willingness to also protect nazis


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Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: ollaimh
Date: 10 Sep 18 - 08:15 PM

abd they need to lat charges or felony child endangerment against all those who knew and did not warn parents at every level. every one who helped treat and didn't warn parents, every one who transfered them and didn't warn, every one who covered up and didn't warm

as for the torturers in the residential school canada just had a royal commission , easily accessed. in the usa the genocide against natives is active with the private army of erik prince going to war against the sacred stone camp opposing the use of native land for the dalp, and of course the american residential schools are still destroying records to cover up their torture illegal medical experiements and rape.   native is the usa still don't have fair access to justice in the courts. ward churchill won a million dollars for wrongfull dismissal at a colorado university and the judgement was set aside by a racist appeal court, and the realy big one is the suit for the blck hills was recognized as valid by the us supreme court but they said they can't have their land, they have to take money. the sioux have so far refused the money and want their land. but treateis signed with the usa are worthless. they void them any time they feel like it. the usa is a genocidal racist state world wide and right at home, while the holy joe's come up with hand wringing and excuses and defend nazis


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Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: Thompson
Date: 09 Sep 18 - 09:42 AM

Popes and bishops deliberately covered up the crimes, and still refer to "sin" and "mistakes" and the like. Here's a graph of how sexual abuser clerics were moved from one place to another (to where they found new victims) in Ireland alone.

It is not alone the rapes and sexual assaults and bullying that were the crime. It is the fact that an organisation conspired to hide these crimes, and to shelter the criminals, while terrifying the victims into silence. The Catholic Church in Ireland (and in many places) is a criminal organisation, whose influence has been malign.


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Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: Joe Offer
Date: 09 Sep 18 - 02:25 AM

This is from a Boston Globe article dated September 2, 2018:

    Time’s up for Pope Francis and the leaders of the Catholic Church.

    Catholics everywhere — and anyone who cares about children — should demand that our criminal justice system start treating the Roman Catholic Church for what many victims believe it is: an international criminal conspiracy to cover up the rape of what in the United States alone might amount to 100,000 children.
    Every attorney general in the country should use their subpoena powers to force the church hierarchy to give up their long-held secrets of clerical crimes. Every state legislature should eliminate the statute of limitations on sexual crimes against children. In every state, clergy should be mandated reporters of alleged sexual abuse....


I think that makes sense. Popes and bishops aren't trained to deal with crime. From the very beginning, this should have been handled by law enforcement and child protection professionals.

-Joe-


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Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: ollaimh
Date: 08 Sep 18 - 08:22 PM

canadian criminal convictions are public record as are the charges agaisnt msgr william lynn. the canadian torturers who were convicted became a cause celebre for the tories. steven harper appealed all the way to the supreme court of canada to try and have their criminal records sealed, against all canadian law. why? because they were good christians and the victims were native. one of harpers dead osing appeals over his views, wasting around fourty million dollars in leagl fees on each such appeal.

in the one over the james bay catholc torturers he showed true pernicious racism which is usually done by dog whistle, but here it was right out in the open. a different law for natives than christians.

so you can hardly miss these convictions if you look for news articel. they are not obscure.

that is the kind of filth these holy joes are enabling and defending.


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Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: Rapparee
Date: 06 Sep 18 - 10:23 PM

O, do you have citations for those charges? I'd really like to know; I'm not trying to start something.


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Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: ollaimh
Date: 06 Sep 18 - 04:22 AM

and of course remember that most of the criminal convictions in canada for torture, are for catholic priests and their employees for their racist torture, illegal medicval experiments and sexual abuse of the native children for whom they took moral and physical responsibility. this isn't the only evil church but arguably the worst.

these scandals were openly admitted to by the canadian anglican chursh in their quarterly in 1996. catholics have yet to apologize or make sufficeint restitution.

moreover, i advocate strict criminal penalities for not just abuse but for felong child enadnagerment if one does not warn parents of the presence of pedophiles in the employ of the church in their area. as msgr william lynn was convicted(on appeal at last reading)

jim carrol this isn't mob.(an incedibly stupid assertion) it's criminal law . a pilar of ethical society, unlike christianity which is a pilar of evil.

the catholic church has avoided paying damages where ever they can joe. in my area they want to local church members in the acadien pennisula and capre breton to raise the funds to pay law suits rather than the church. more oever in the usa multiple diosesses have stashed their cash in corporate entities such as grave yard maintaince funds. the chicago group has millions stashed thus. enough to cover grave yeard maintaince for the whole country!!! they are doing what ever they can to avoid responsibility. california has stricter laws forcing payment of damages for serious torts. they are only doing t he minimum undet the law. their standard remains thatof --if you can't throw us in jail or prove it in court we have no ethical responsiblites.

the american native residential schools have been caught destroying records of childern who were suing, to avoid payments. so as natives have less access to lawyers few get compensation for rape abuse and illegal medical experiments.

and it is no accident that this chuch made the deal with the nazis, to get control over german education, in return for the catholic centre party supporting hitler's legislating dictatorial powers and made the latern accord with mussolini. crimes for which they will never be forgiven if there is a god. so is it all about nazis? is sure is for the catholic church, not me.


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Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 01 Sep 18 - 06:28 AM

That is an utterly contemptible post, Donuel, and it would be beneath my dignity to respond to its substance. You are completely off-topic. Shame on you for persisting. Drop it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: Rapparee
Date: 31 Aug 18 - 10:05 PM

The Catholic Church, like all of the churches, can only be redeemed by the laity. The clergy have failed, failed for centuries. And whether the clergy like it or not, the laity -- the people -- are the church.


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Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: Donuel
Date: 31 Aug 18 - 09:54 PM

Senofou, My point is that Steve's brand of atheism is on the harsh side, nothing to do with Nuns who I personally found to be a delight to work with.
Examples supporting my opinion are in this thread and extend back for years. He is a very simple man with very simple ideas about atheism that borders on vengeance toward religion. I am glad he feels free enough to express these feelings but there is room for refinement in his heart. Mankind has had to make the best of a bad situation and I am afraid our species is still rather primitive as evidenced by cult leaders like Trump.


btw Steve you say never compare anyone to Hitler but you are wrong.
The more parallels, common language and divisive hatreds there are, the more something should be said.


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Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 30 Aug 18 - 05:14 AM

And as for Hasidic Jews, with their Tel Aviv side locks - randy rabbis and all!!!


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Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: mg
Date: 29 Aug 18 - 05:53 PM

Just when you think they can not get any stupider read what cardinal from new zealand said on abuse tracker...basically they are just discovering people want concrete action and now tnat they understand that by golly, things are going to change.


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Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 Aug 18 - 04:29 PM

My post had absolutely nothing to do with atheism and everything to do with taking people as I find them.

And cheers, Eliza.


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Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: Senoufou
Date: 29 Aug 18 - 03:16 PM

Well Donuel, I don't find Steve's post about nuns anything but interesting and fair-minded. He merely points out that he has known some very nice nuns and that one shouldn't condemn all religious people in holy orders.
He has every right to disassociate himself from religious belief and to voice his strident objections to religious organisations and practices.

I got to know personally, through my prison work, a small convent of IBMV nuns (Institute of the Blessed Virgin Mary) who were involved with inmates in prison.
They ran all sorts of cookery and art classes for the offenders, and were kind, funny and sensible women of all ages.
I was often invited to tea in their small terraced house, and they were very pleasant to me.
They didn't wear habits, just ordinary clothes but with a small cross on a chain round their necks.
I even attended a 'house Mass' there and, despite being C of E, felt most welcome.


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Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: Donuel
Date: 29 Aug 18 - 02:41 PM

My observance is from multiple posts. The reason I attempt to spar with you is because you are rational and a gentleman. In the spirit of refining dissent against small minded adherence to biblical 'fact' and repression of modern truth, there is space for the modern atheist to thrive. There is a less brazen and rude path you could follow to allow modern truths to self reform religion instead of inflaming the issue needlessly. I do not think it is a lost cause to create points of agreement rather than stress the most contentious arguments.

In a separate matter both my wife and I assisted Sister Mary Beth in Vatican research under Pope John on topics from Astronomy to Witchcraft in the modern age at Boston College.


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Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 Aug 18 - 09:59 AM

Don't be so bloody rude and obnoxious. The post was honest.


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Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: Donuel
Date: 29 Aug 18 - 09:52 AM

Steve your brand of atheism is so grating and obnoxious you probably do more harm than good. Most atheists are of the 'I just don't give a shit brand'. Your total evangelical bull shit brand of atheism doesn't impress anyone, bores everyone and makes you a very sad sounding person who is far from being a Renaissance man.

Your fellow atheist Donuel. - and definately not a fence sitter.
(just tugging your coat tails)

I'm sure we have all worked with Nuns on some level


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Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Aug 18 - 04:01 AM

" she had clearly been working on her ugliness for years, and she looked catholic fierce!!!"
Every bit as vicious as the rapists and abusers Bozo - well done
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 28 Aug 18 - 06:29 PM

I worked with a lot of nuns when I taught in the East End of London in a Catholic school for seven years in the 1970s. I found them to be down-to-earth and pragmatic on the whole, expedient even, working as they were with some of the most deprived children in the country. Like any bunch of people, they were a mixed bunch. Old Sister Helen was seen as a harridan by the kids but she had a twinkle in her eye and I loved her despite her wilful nature. Sister Christine was a lovely, young, humanitarian person, a bridge between the older nuns and the kids. Sister Theresa was the head of the school and she was lovely with both staff and children, though she had her red lines and crossing her was unwise. She got me a council flat by encouraging me to go down the housing department in Poplar and lie in my teeth about my residency credentials. She told me to say that I lived in Pope John House, the nuns' house in Poplar, which I'd never even been to. She and I both got away with it and I got my flat! I hasten to add that plenty were available at the time so I didn't diddle anyone else out of somewhere to live - it was just a matter of defeating bureaucracy. That was seven years in Poplar, following seven years in a Catholic secondary school in Bolton, run by the Salesian order. Looking back, I can recall some rather antediluvian attitudes to lots of things, as well as some pretty rotten teaching, but in all those fourteen years of very close contact with Catholicism I didn't see or hear of any sexual abuse nor of any untoward, for its time, physical abuse or cruelty. I'm not saying this to defend in the least the depredations of those thousands of abusive priests, and, you know me, I'm no defender either of Catholicism or of any other faith. They're all total bullshit as far as I'm concerned. But let's just be fair to all those non-abusers, the vast majority I believe, who have the wellbeing of their charges to heart first and foremost. Please?


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Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: Donuel
Date: 28 Aug 18 - 06:15 PM

If early detection means segregating 'weird guys' from anything and everything I suggest banning all members who ever posted in this BS section and have all males systematically Bobbitized.

no? Well then how about teaching the evils of a conspiracy of silence   to kids and adults alike.


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Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: mg
Date: 28 Aug 18 - 05:51 PM

in abuse tracker today it says some nuns in scotland have been arrested.


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Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 28 Aug 18 - 03:21 AM

We walked past a nun in Modra, Slovakia on Sunday - she had clearly been working on her ugliness for years, and she looked catholic fierce!!!


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Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: Rapparee
Date: 27 Aug 18 - 11:07 PM

Verify, verify, verify. Take nothing for granted. Never assume. Don't be afraid to find out the truth. Let the chips fall where they may.

It's the only way to find out in this and everything.


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Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: mg
Date: 27 Aug 18 - 07:58 PM

It is definitely homophobic and that should be addressed. But is it true or is it not true? Not the homophobia but the actions or inactions of the pope. Read abuse tracker each and every day. Today some horrible stuff coming out about nuns in a Vermont orphanage. Terrible sadism. And if there is any group of men forming any sort of mafia, clean them out. If you can. Mafias are not easy to break up and the real mafia has had links with highups in vatican for some time. Do not focus on what vigano's motives are. Is it true or is it not true? It was common gossip if not knowledge for some time about McCarrick. I knew it. If something needs to be rooted out, and abuse of seminarians needs to be, then go for it. If Donald Trump told y ou about it, check it out and follow through. If Mickey Mouse did, check it out and follow through. All this diversion about what Vigano's is trying to pull is probably true, but if what he says is true, and I think it is, about the pope..I can't follow all of his people he names...then check it out, verify it and insist on him behaving like at least a capable administrator.


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Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: Joe Offer
Date: 27 Aug 18 - 07:36 PM

Steve Shaw says:
  1. I would like to see is the Church ruthlessly and publicly outing every priest who is known to be or suspected to be a child abuser, now or in the past, dead or alive, all details handed to the police.
  2. And all good Catholics, the Pope included, should disown the sainting of John Paul II, during whose long rule thousands of people continued to suffer abuse at the hands of his priests.
I'd agree with you on both, Steve. I think the Catholic Church is finally answering your first request quite well in most places. I never have had any respect for John Paul II, but I'm afraid I'm in the minority in the Catholic Church on that. I often find the Catholic Church to be alarmingly conservative, and John Paul II fit in well with that. Sometimes, I'm not so sure how well I fit in.

A little more on the letter from former Papal Nuncio Vigano that mg referred to - this morning, National Public Radio said Vigano's letter was homophobic and full of discrepancies.

-Joe-


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Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: robomatic
Date: 27 Aug 18 - 02:34 PM

This latest contretemps leaves me at a loss for words (almost). It seems we are in an age where many of the established institutions we look to for ideological leadership are being challenged, and justifiably so. And even if you leave off the 'ideo' there is a real attack on logical leadership as well, from many sides of the media.
We are left with the principles and not the symbols, and it will be interesting to see if we can make do with the principles alone. People seem to need guides and representatives, 'icons' of the principles as steers and guides.


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Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: Jack Campin
Date: 27 Aug 18 - 10:28 AM

In Scotland there have been as many reports of non-sexual abuse of children by nuns in orphanages - violent and degrading abuses of power.

My wife was talking to a nun she knew about this a while back. That nun actually wanted to be one. She thought that most the sadistic behaviour came from conscripts - women who were forced into becoming nuns by their families, which happened fairly often among the Catholic bourgeoisie until about a generation ago. They spent their entire adult lives resenting the situation they'd been forced into and making sure that as many people as possible suffered for it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Aug 18 - 09:05 AM

"I'm not convinced that Francis has done anything wrong."
It's not a case of him doing wrong Joe - rather, he is being accused of doing nothing other than offering lip service to an ongoing crime

There's a very peceptive cartoom in this morning's Times showing The Pope high on a elevated platform with a hammer and chisel carving a huge statue made up of teh words, "Grave scandal, Pain and Shame, Corruption Repellant Clerical abuse"
The plinth reads "WORDS"
Next to him is an empty entitles "ACTIONS" - totally empty!
Sums it all up perfectly really

Irish Minister, Katherine Zappone has presented The Pope with The Governments summation of the scandal and what needs to be done in reparation - if I were a betting man I'd be queuing at the betting shop to place my bet on that one

Throughout his visit thousands of protestors have been demanding to know the names of members of the church hierarchy who colluded to hide what was going on and allowed it to continue - their pleass have been greeted with total silence
Outrageously, past Governments agreed to share the financial burden of reparation with the church out of our taxes (outrageous enough)
This is made more outrageous by the fact that the church still owes €1.3 BILLION OF ITS AGREED PORTION
It really isn't helping its case for all its public rallies, which, it is reckoned, will have cost Ireland €20,000,000
Utter madness
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Aug 18 - 07:02 AM

I never think that comparing anyone with Nazis is ever, ever helpful.


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Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Aug 18 - 06:17 AM

If we all flail about intemperately over this, justice will not be done. The Church must be seen to be totally ruthless about cutting out every piece of that rot and it must be done publicly. I see little sign of this, unfortunately. The Pope goes to a Catholic country, smiles and waves a lot, does a big Mass and produces a litany of requests for forgiveness. That just fills me with gloom. He either takes this by the scruff or else the Church doesn't survive. Is that strong enough for you? Again, two things. First, the vast majority of ordinary Catholics, including priests, are not complicit in this. The Church is not a democracy so it relies on the people at the top to act. Sadly, I think most of the top men may well be complicit, by their silence if nothing else. Ordinary Catholics haven't got the power to shake up the hierarchy and the latter have plenty of backwoodsmen supporting them. Second, individual cases of abuse may range from isolated bouts of fondling through clothes in the vestry to out-and-out serial anal child rape over decades. Cover-ups range from a momentary turning of a blind eye to years of lying, conspiracy and shuffling evil men around the country to protect them from justice. Sorry to be so explicit, but the point is that we simply can't lock up every single perpetrator as if they've all done the same thing. Throwing-away-the-key syndrome for all is redolent of lynching, only with white gloves on, to misquote the Pope. But let's out them, every single one. They don't deserve privacy or protection. That's the beginning of the solution.


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Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: Donuel
Date: 27 Aug 18 - 05:27 AM

When the policy remains to be a tight lipped silence, cover up and transfer of the guilty life long employees...
NO CLAIM THAT ABUSES AND RAPE HAVE ENDED, CAN BE BELIEVED.
I am shocked the rotten silence is still pervasive and goes to the top.


Eventual payback may be worse than imagined.
Anti Franciscans in the church will happily sell out the current Pope in exchange for corrupt business as usual at their own peril.


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Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: Thompson
Date: 27 Aug 18 - 05:19 AM

"Best to take individual cases on their merits"? No. Not when an institution is riddled through and through with rot.

Before anyone shouts "Godwin!" may I make the comparison to the Nazis. This is like saying it's best to take every case of Jewish people being deported, robbed, tortured, murdered "on its merits".

The Catholic Church's hierarchy, from lay people to ordinary nuns and priests to Reverend Mothers, bishops, cardinals and popes, has been complicit in protecting abusers - like the priest,https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/news/catholic-church-helped-priest-accused-abu, who, instead of being investigated by police, was moved to drive the train at the Magic Kingdom in Disney World - a place where hundreds of thousands of children were available.

Not that the police were necessarily any less forelock-tugging and complicit.


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Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Aug 18 - 04:59 AM

Well I'm a very simple man, Joe. So what I would like to see is the Church ruthlessly and publicly outing every priest who is known to be or suspected to be a child abuser, now or in the past, dead or alive, all details handed to the police. We want to see a gritty willingness to stop the rot, not a lot of simpering requests for forgiveness. And all good Catholics, the Pope included, should disown the sainting of John Paul II, during whose long rule thousands of people continued to suffer abuse at the hands of his priests. His canonisation revealed entirely the wrong kind of intent.


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Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: Joe Offer
Date: 27 Aug 18 - 01:11 AM

Here's an article from the liberal National Catholic Reporter about the letter from former papal nuncio Vigano about McCarrick:
And here's an article in the right-wing National Catholic Register, which includes the text of the Vigano letter:
The National Catholic Register, owned by EWTN (Eternal Word Television Network), regularly publishes diatribes against Pope Francis from the notorious Cardinal Burke. Seems to me the publication has been working to depose Francis for quite some time.

-Joe-


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Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: mg
Date: 26 Aug 18 - 11:46 PM

First of all everyone read the letter and do some background checking. Mccarrick was functioning as a cardinal until last month I think the pope should act when he hears about crimes and unsavory activities certainly a month Bishops and Cardinals or anyone really. What he did in Chile to abuse survivors and their supporters was awful. Bringing pal to Vatican when his cruelty to survivors was very well-known and very offencive to Australians who was off his lack of really doing much about the abuse situation has been horrifying he needs to appoint a powerful woman such as Mary mcaleese or she needs to just take the reins and run things. He is either inept or conspiratorial on this issue. I don't know what the problem is but it is very very serious. And I like them. But he's awful at this.


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Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: Rapparee
Date: 26 Aug 18 - 11:20 PM

Okay, I've actually, really, truly walked in a minefield. We drove into it by accident and I had to "ground guide" the truck back out by walking backwards. Oh, yes -- there were four people in the back of the truck and the driver in front.

First, you are very, very careful where you put your feet.
Second, you move very, very slowly.
Thirdly, you pray a lot even if you're not especially religious.
Fourthly, that evening you get stinkin' drunk.


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Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: Joe Offer
Date: 26 Aug 18 - 11:16 PM

What should he do, Steve? The fact of the matter, is that the child sexual abuse has dropped dramatically in the Catholic Church worldwide since 2000, that national councils of bishops have developed tough and consistent programs of dealing with abusers and preventing abuse, and that billions of reparations have been paid.

It does appear that the church agreed to pay millions of Euros of reparations in Ireland and that it has not completely paid that debt. Most of the bishops guilty of coverups have retired, died, or been sacked - which is what happens when an organization is led by old men.
What else needs to be done?

The center of the problem, sexual abuse of children, has largely been stopped.

-Joe-


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Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Aug 18 - 06:55 PM

Seems to me, Joe, that he's actually refused to walk the minefield. He's done an awful lot of asking for forgiveness, etc., but that is simply circumventing the minefield that is properly his responsibility to walk through. We want to know what he's going to DO. And that is more than just the business of Roman Catholics. Perhaps you could enlighten us as to who the people are in the background who have turned him into a yet another papal man of marble.


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Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: Joe Offer
Date: 26 Aug 18 - 05:05 PM

McCarrick is 88 years old. He retired from his position as Archbishop in 2006, and became ineligible to vote as a cardinal at the age of 80. Francis became Pope just five years ago, and yet people are trying to crucify Francis for not taking action against McCarrick.
I'm sorry, but I think McCarrick is a non-issue at this point.
-Joe-


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Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: Joe Offer
Date: 26 Aug 18 - 04:43 PM

I'm not convinced that Francis has done anything wrong. He's walking a minefield, so he's not likely to make anybody happy. This is a horrible mess, and it's hard to see how anybody could solve it.
-Joe-


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Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Aug 18 - 03:16 PM

His statement blamed the priests and the bishops and left his own house totally untouched - no word of the billion or so still owed to the victims
Mary McAleese was spot on - mealy-mouthed right wing ranting
Let them sink - they've blown their chances
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: mg
Date: 26 Aug 18 - 03:11 PM

He names a lot of names. And he goes on about the gay mafia. I personally am fine with every priest being gay, as long as around half are women. If they have adult partners in voluntary relationships, I do not care. None of my business. Now regardless of orientation, there are things you do not get to do. This is not conservative/liberal...it is lies against truth, willing against unwilling sex, decent versus corrupt dealings. It has all been cracked open today although the stench has been around for years. I don't want the pope to resign but someone else must be his executor in terms of the child abuse situation...and I don't know who that would be. Parolin seems creepy somehow. And I hope Vigano's health remains good. He mentions two bishops?? who died "prematurely" and something about a bishop?? dying "unexpectedly" or some other word. Since we had a pope in my lifetime who died "unexpectedly" along with many other of his cohorts, we should keep an eye on things. I hope someone reviews Milwaukee like they did Pittsburgh and Boston and looks at a current cardinal who is elsewhere now but seems to be keeping a low profile.


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Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: mg
Date: 26 Aug 18 - 01:53 PM

The news today is going to end the church as we know it which is been in tatters for some time. Archbishop vigano has written a letter to the world saying the pope knew about mcgarrick's trouble with seminarians. As in coercive sex. I knew about this credibly accused Behavior years and years ago. There is no excuse. It does not matter how the politics pan out. The truth is the truth regardless of who exposes it. He is in Ireland right now saying nice words about something. He cannot weasel out of this. I like this post. But something is really really really wrong here. I think this problem is so embedded that only Massive Action by women will help and it will totally restructure the church. Read up on Mary Magdalene because that is more the beginnings of the church then the weird Saint Paul. Doing this on my cell phone so forgive any errors. Read all you can about this. It is probably equivalent to Martin Luther


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