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BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations

Donuel 27 Dec 18 - 03:04 PM
Brian May 26 Dec 18 - 02:04 PM
Rapparee 25 Dec 18 - 10:29 PM
Rapparee 25 Dec 18 - 10:20 PM
leeneia 25 Dec 18 - 12:04 PM
Joe Offer 24 Dec 18 - 04:48 PM
Rapparee 24 Dec 18 - 04:21 PM
Jon Freeman 24 Dec 18 - 03:58 PM
keberoxu 24 Dec 18 - 03:54 PM
keberoxu 24 Dec 18 - 03:41 PM
ollaimh 24 Dec 18 - 02:48 PM
Raggytash 24 Dec 18 - 01:07 PM
ollaimh 24 Dec 18 - 01:01 PM
Jim Carroll 23 Dec 18 - 08:52 AM
Iains 23 Dec 18 - 07:08 AM
mg 22 Dec 18 - 05:42 PM
keberoxu 22 Dec 18 - 03:46 PM
Joe Offer 22 Dec 18 - 02:45 PM
Joe Offer 22 Dec 18 - 01:37 PM
Jim Carroll 22 Dec 18 - 01:08 PM
Jim Carroll 22 Dec 18 - 01:04 PM
Joe Offer 22 Dec 18 - 12:58 PM
Mossback 22 Dec 18 - 09:15 AM
Jim Carroll 22 Dec 18 - 04:03 AM
Joe Offer 21 Dec 18 - 11:56 PM
Mossback 21 Dec 18 - 08:18 PM
Steve Shaw 21 Dec 18 - 08:14 PM
mg 21 Dec 18 - 07:22 PM
Joe Offer 21 Dec 18 - 07:15 PM
Joe Offer 21 Dec 18 - 06:56 PM
Donuel 21 Dec 18 - 06:39 PM
mg 21 Dec 18 - 04:36 PM
ollaimh 21 Dec 18 - 04:34 PM
Iains 17 Dec 18 - 06:37 AM
Donuel 16 Dec 18 - 03:04 PM
keberoxu 16 Dec 18 - 01:41 PM
Donuel 16 Dec 18 - 11:42 AM
ollaimh 16 Dec 18 - 11:09 AM
ollaimh 16 Dec 18 - 11:06 AM
Rapparee 15 Dec 18 - 07:57 PM
Big Al Whittle 13 Dec 18 - 02:25 PM
Jim Carroll 13 Dec 18 - 12:51 PM
Iains 13 Dec 18 - 11:48 AM
Big Al Whittle 13 Dec 18 - 10:32 AM
Jim Carroll 13 Dec 18 - 07:20 AM
Iains 13 Dec 18 - 06:08 AM
Jim Carroll 13 Dec 18 - 05:35 AM
Iains 13 Dec 18 - 05:09 AM
Jim Carroll 13 Dec 18 - 03:53 AM
Big Al Whittle 12 Dec 18 - 09:56 PM

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Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: Donuel
Date: 27 Dec 18 - 03:04 PM

I bet clerical abusers want to go to heaven for the climate but are going to hell for the company they keep.


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Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: Brian May
Date: 26 Dec 18 - 02:04 PM

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-46684638

Even the Home Secretary.

I suppose he's racist too . . .


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Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: Rapparee
Date: 25 Dec 18 - 10:29 PM

I will also point out that there is growing concern over clerical abuse of adults.


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Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: Rapparee
Date: 25 Dec 18 - 10:20 PM

I have completed two different training sessions and a background check by the diocese just so I can be an usher/greeter. Anyone who might be working with children for over an hour per month is required to do this every three years. An adult working with, say, a boy scout troop can't send anyone to a bathroom unless the adult has checked it first and then an older kid must accompany a younger.

This type of requirement has been the rule since 2002.


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Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: leeneia
Date: 25 Dec 18 - 12:04 PM

I agree with you, Joe. Some people are so eager to talk about sexual abuse in the Catholic church, but they never say a word about the many forms of help and charity that the church offers.
===========
My newspaper just ran a series on sexual abuse of teen-age girls in "independent fundamental Baptist churches." Cover-ups seem widespread.

The article got me to thinking. I was raised Lutheran, and in all my activities (Sunday school, Bible school, catechism, confirmation classes, services, parties) I can't remember a single time when I was ever left alone with an adult. (other than my mother or father, of course) This was in three churches in two states.

I just wrote a letter to the editor and said that. I also said to parents that if they belong to a church where a minister has kids alone in his office, then they should change churches.


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Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: Joe Offer
Date: 24 Dec 18 - 04:48 PM

Yeah, I suppose the Catholic church at Ballyferriter is a valuable asset. It should be torn down and the property sold to developers who can build cute little prefab houses. Right?

Yes, there are justifications for bankrupting the Catholic Church. There are also consequences. All those mostly-empty "assets" cost a lot to maintain, so that tourists can come in and take selfies. Those old churches don't really function all that well for services that are suited to the times, but there's a raucous outcry from people who don't go to church, every time an old church closes or is modernized.

We Catholics acknowledge all the damage that was done by criminal priests in years past, but we also know that the vast majority of our priests were not guilty of these crimes. For most crimes, the guilty parties are the ones held responsible, and almost all agree that the criminals should pay the price of their crime. But in this case, it's different. The price is being paid by people who were mostly unaware of the crimes at the time they were happening. And because Catholic parishes have "assets," there are people lining up to collect those assets.

There's no question that we who are current members of the Catholic Church do have a share in the responsibility for reparations, but where does that responsibility end? When can we stop paying and go on with life?

Our parish just cut our music director from 40 to 12 hours per week - the congregation is shrinking, and there just wasn't enough money to pay her. We need a new roof, and that will cost $100,000. We thought our diocese paid for all those offenses at about the time they were reported, at about $100,000 per victim. But then came 2002 and the big reports of dioceses that hadn't paid, and we had to pay another million bucks per victim. We cut staff and closed buildings and learned to live on an austerity budget, but we still haven't recovered enough to pay a fulltime music director a living wage.

And yes, there are some dioceses who tried to evade their financial responsibility for the crimes their priests committed, and people are looking at us who already paid and thinking we owe more money.

And yeah, it does seem to me that there are some people who seek to take advantage of this crisis to put us out of business because they think we're evil, but we're not. We run homeless shelters and soup kitchens and food banks, and we are the strongest voice for justice for immigrants in the U.S. We want to get on with that work, and we are getting weary of those who dwell on the crimes a small minority of our priests committed in the last millennium.

So, yeah, go tear down the church and build cute little houses all over Ballyferriter, if that's what you want to do. We'd be better off without all those "assets."

-Joe Offer-

P.S. to ollaimh: My name is Joe, not "Holy Joe." You can take your honorifics and stick them up your ass. Merry Christmas.


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Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: Rapparee
Date: 24 Dec 18 - 04:21 PM

Oh, I think
the laity is aware of
what is going on.

Moreover, I think the laity is going to force significant change no matter what the Vatican does...and I don't mean by withholding collection monies.


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Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 24 Dec 18 - 03:58 PM

http://www.buildingsofireland.ie/niah/search.jsp?type=record&county=KE&regno=21304201


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Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: keberoxu
Date: 24 Dec 18 - 03:54 PM

Of the two hundred - plus churches which were shut down by the Archdiocese of Boston, they have met with many varied fates.

The town of Wellesley had a church right on Route no. 9, which is not only a main commuter/connector route but is prime commercial real estate with everything from local businesses to state-of-the-art shopping malls. That particular church was a recent comer; some people moved to Wellesley who wanted a Catholic parish to worship in, and the church that was built was, honestly, a sort of cookie cutter church, nothing historical or unique.

Route no. 9 isn't going anyplace. The church, however, was literally razed down to the parking-lot foundation. You would never know that it had been there in the first place. Something else, and it is something commercial that is going to make money, is being built where the church stood.

The church which waked and buried Jack Kerouac back in the day, in his native Lowell, may have been a faithful reproduction of a Western-European continental style of architecture, so not terribly original, but the photos of the interior -- they were breathtaking in their beauty and elegance, with the Romanesque arches and all. The building is still standing. It is condominiums now.

I never looked inside -- Lowell is a ways away from me. I only saw those photographs on the webpages which the Archdiocese of Boston dedicated to 'real estate for sale.'

So many more ...


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Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: keberoxu
Date: 24 Dec 18 - 03:41 PM

Iains' attempted link -- it didn't work for me either --
was a pageholder for
Saint Vincent's Catholic Church in Ballyferriter, build in 1865.

I'll see if I can construct a functional link.

St. Vincent's Catholic Church


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Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: ollaimh
Date: 24 Dec 18 - 02:48 PM

religious fanatics raping children is such a complicated issue, it's so had to understand, the complexities make stopping it impossible, becuase to stop that, you'd lose money, and power and most of all the ego maniacs who deny deflect and diminish would have to examine their own evil. can't let that happen.. too complicated.

torturing native children, it's just so complicated, gotta defend that and never never never apologize. i guess we can see why the persecutions of nazis is so unfair. they were complicated as well. doing evil is so much clearly and fun, doing good ... well that's complicated. so who cares


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Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: Raggytash
Date: 24 Dec 18 - 01:07 PM

Iains, unfortunately your link doesn't work. I'm curious as I know Ballyferriter reasonably well and would be interested in reading it.

Could you possibly resubmit it.

Thanks


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Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: ollaimh
Date: 24 Dec 18 - 01:01 PM

holy joe will always question because holy joe will always find complicated reasons to do nothing. these are the enablers who need to be jailed, and untill people who endanger children by not warning parents of known pedophiles are jailed for felony child endangerment then the problem will not end.

the catholic church was the worst in the genocide of native children and now wants to hold the record for pedophilia. they remain the only church to not apologize for the native children's genocide.

but they are holy men. thr gnostic dualists were right. mainstream christianity worships devils and calls it god


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Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Dec 18 - 08:52 AM

"Payment started long ago"
The Pope vicious turned on Pell's accusers
This is the problem wwith all you're arguments Joe - they skirt around the part that the Church heirarch played in all this and is still playing
Exactly, and religious groups still owe victims €1.3 billion and appear to be hoping that they'll die before it is paid
We are now living in a situation where Irish people are being turned out on the streets if their mortgages are a few months overdue
It's not as if your church is hard-up now, is it?
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: Iains
Date: 23 Dec 18 - 07:08 AM

Ballyferriter looks like a useful asset to me.


http://www.buildingsofireland.ie/niah/search.jsp?type=record&county=KE®no=21304201


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Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: mg
Date: 22 Dec 18 - 05:42 PM

Denial? How about the pope himself in Chili calling abusees liars or a similar word. I do think a lot of the coverup is a huge shame about sex period...between newlyweds etc. A physical disgust at women and a subconscious belief that at least it was only altar boys and not vile womankind. Also a desire to protect assets of the church..which might be great in the vatican but in ballyferriter or mumbai they might be struggling at best.


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Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: keberoxu
Date: 22 Dec 18 - 03:46 PM

Now His Holiness goes on the record as saying "turn yourselves in."

Something about the barn door comes to mind.


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Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: Joe Offer
Date: 22 Dec 18 - 02:45 PM

And Jim, you say something about "the church stating (starting?) to pay the reparation it owes." Payment started long ago, and the Catholic Church has paid billions worldwide. And Catholics in Ireland have also paid substantial reparations. This has created a huge financial crisis all over the Catholic Chutch. But no, the debt is not paid in full.


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Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: Joe Offer
Date: 22 Dec 18 - 01:37 PM

Well, yeah, Jim, I suppose Pell did deny his wrongdoing - but the Vatican sent him home to Australia for trial. And yes, there are still new "exposures" - but the majority are added details of crimes that have already been reported. But when reports of incidents are made, the majority of Catholics and Catholic officials no longer deny them.

And when the divorce referendum passes in Ireland (and I believe it will), the majority of Catholics will be voting in favor, and there will be many priests and a few bishops voting in favor of the referendum alongside them.

-Joe-


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Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Dec 18 - 01:08 PM

Sorry Joe - we're in the middle of watching the churches reputation disappearing down the pan daily here in Ireland and it still acts as if it has influence - education - pregnant termination - same sex marriage
Next year we'll have the divorce referendum and women's place in society - it's on the cards which side they will be on
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Dec 18 - 01:04 PM

"Give me one recent example of denial"
New exposures are coming out every day Joe
You don't need recent ones - you can't deal with the old ones
Pell wasn't exactly that long ago, when the pope went to war with the people
The church stating to pay the reparation it owes might help
People are waiting for signs of genuine contrition, not platitudes
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: Joe Offer
Date: 22 Dec 18 - 12:58 PM

Mossback, I have no desire to do battle with you. Cool it. Now. What you're trying to pick a fight about, is immaterial.

Jim Carroll says: How longer are church people going to deny that this is now a major problem- are they not aware of the self-harm they are doing to their faith?

Give me one recent example of denial, Jim. Catholics, including church leaders, have acknowledged the reality and impact of this problem for a long, long, time.

But nobody denies this stuff, Jim.

As for the Illinois report, I'll wait and see. Seems to me that at this point, it would be unlikely that the attorney general would be able to uncover "about 500 of the allegations [that] had never before been disclosed to the public." (Chicago Tribune). http://bishop-accountability.org/ lists 265 Illinois priests as offenders, and I'm sure the number of offenses is many times 265.

I'll wait for more information on the Illinois report, which is described as "preliminary."

Whatever the case, it's a huge number of offenders and a far larger number of offenses. But I do think that Illinois will turn out like Pennsylvania - that most of the offenses and offenders have been known of by the public for many years.

-Joe-


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Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: Mossback
Date: 22 Dec 18 - 09:15 AM

what Garrison Keillor did, other than it was something sexual involving a woman [emphasis mine]

Actually, you don't "know" that he did that at all.

This article lays out some important points:

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/dec/22/rape-joke-metoo-movement-career-repercussions


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Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Dec 18 - 04:03 AM

The at least 500 cover-ups in Illinois was covered by our news station yesterday
How longer are church people going to deny that this is now a major problem- are they not aware of the self-harm they are doing to their faith?
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: Joe Offer
Date: 21 Dec 18 - 11:56 PM

I have no idea what Garrison Keillor did, other than it was something sexual involving a woman; and it was a surprise and a disappointment to me that he was banished from public radio. And yes, it appears that his work has been made invisible, like the work of Bill Cosby and whatever Cardinal Pell did.

My question is not about the comparative guilt of these three men - but I do think that the banishment of their work was comparable. My question is whether their accomplishments must be made invisible and never spoken of favorably. The same thing seems to be happening with Harvey Weinstein movies, despite the fact that most of the people involved in production of those movies were totally innocent - and some were victims of Weinstein's malicious conduct.

We've had a thread that had a lot of traffic over the years. I started it in 2008, asking about hymn writer Ernest Sands. Over the 8-year life of the thread, we learned that Ernest Sands had been a Catholic priest, that he had molested children, and that he eventually committed suicide. Most likely, he was a very troubled man, but he wrote two hymns that remain very popular in the Catholic Church and other denominations. One is a catchy song in 5/4 time called "Sing of the Lord's Goodness." The other is "Song of Farewell," a very moving interpretation of the ancient "In Paradisum" prayer that closes Catholic funerals:
    May the choirs of angels come to greet you
    May they lead you to Paradise.
    May the Lord enfold you in His mercy,
    May you find eternal life.
There's real power and real compassion in that song. It's a wonderful song, and I think the author's horrible sexual misconduct cannot detract from the song.

But it's a difficult thing to consider the art of someone who has conducted himself horribly in "real life." I don't think there are easy answers.
-Joe-


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Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: Mossback
Date: 21 Dec 18 - 08:18 PM

Placing Garrison Keillor in the same category as Bill Cosby and Cardinal Pell - even if the accusations against him were true, which was never proven - is a VERY cheap shot.


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Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 21 Dec 18 - 08:14 PM

"Is the work of Garrison Keillor and Bill Cosby and Cardinal Pell and so many others, of no value? What should we do with regards to the work they've done?"

I think the only answer to this is that you can do what you like. In another thread there's been some chat about Wagner, whose views about Jews were utterly despicable. For me, that means I'll have nothing to do with his music, won't listen to it on the radio, won't have it in the house. But my hero Daniel Barenboim, a Jew who hates what Israel is doing to the Palestinians, took Wagner's music to Israel and took the flak. I can say I think he was wrong-headed, but hey, that's just my opinion. To me, there's something about sexual predators, especially the ones who target children, that makes me immediately want to dismiss anything else they've achieved. But that's me, and if you see things differently that's fine with me as well. As far as attacks on Catholic clergy go, let's just make sure that we attack the institution in its failings. Let's not tar the whole clergy with the misdeeds of a minority. I've been involved with Catholicism babe, child, boy and man for most of my life. Not any more (even though we've just dispatched my dad in as thoroughly a Catholic manner as you could wish for). I'm one of them thar militant atheists these days. But I've known hundreds of Catholics, pupils, students, nuns, priests, brothers, teachers and even Bishop bloody Victor (who I got the better of). I've even shaken hands with Cardinal Hume. To a man or woman, they are no better or worse than anyone else. So just make bloody sure that your long knives are reserved for the actual buggers who deserve them, that's all I'm saying.


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Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: mg
Date: 21 Dec 18 - 07:22 PM

in Illinois it has gone from about 168 reported to about 500-700 the attorney general herself is working on. And Pell undoubtedly had financial experience running huge dioceses and abusing victims to prevent them from tapping into resources. But was he capable of dealing with mafia money laundering? International finance? it all sounds so fishy to me and I wrote the pope at the time.


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Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: Joe Offer
Date: 21 Dec 18 - 07:15 PM

I do question ollaimh's report of "another seven hundred priestly rapists of children in michigan." As with most of the recent reports, they are summaries of information that has already been known for years, for the most part. http://bishop-accountability.org/ lists 128 offenders in Michigan. No doubt, the current investigations will find more, but certainly not 700. The truth is bad enough. I don't see why ollaimh feels compelled to inflate it.

-Joe-

https://www.detroitnews.com/story/news/local/michigan/2018/09/21/schuette-investigation-michigan-priests-sexual-abuse/1378827002/


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Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: Joe Offer
Date: 21 Dec 18 - 06:56 PM

No, Donuel, mg meant Australia. Pope Francis moved Cardinal George Pell from Australia to the Vatican to take care of the financial mess in the Vatican. By all reports, he did a good job with the finances; but then it turned out that he made an even bigger mess by his coverups and his own sexual misconduct.
And that brings up my perennial question - can a person guilty of sexual misconduct do anything of value, or should such a person be shunned as a total reprobate? Is the work of Garrison Keillor and Bill Cosby and Cardinal Pell and so many others, of no value? What should we do with regards to the work they've done?

-Joe-

https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2018/may/01/who-is-cardinal-george-pell-and-what-is-he-accused-of


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Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: Donuel
Date: 21 Dec 18 - 06:39 PM

We know you meant Austria. I saw the Pope story. I do not know if he made these declarations by sticky notes, tweets or documents.


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Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: mg
Date: 21 Dec 18 - 04:36 PM

pope has told clerics to turn themselves in and others to stop enabling. I asked why he did not do this the first hour he was pope. And it is not like someone could not figure out this would bankrupt the church..especially when the creepy creep was brought out of Australia to control finances of church...pope says nice things but has failed miserably..not just by not responding properly but by actively saying things to further hurt the abused.


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Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: ollaimh
Date: 21 Dec 18 - 04:34 PM

another seven hundred priestly rapists of children in michigan. they didn't understand what "suffer the little children meant"

and the people inside are the enablers, and untill they are jailed as well it won't stop


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Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: Iains
Date: 17 Dec 18 - 06:37 AM

I cannot understand the rationale of a gagging order in cases of child abuse. Keeping it in the shadows merely encourages a continuation.

Cannot make a link for below: (It creates a 'not found' page)
An Australian court's gag order is no match for the ... - Washington Post
https://www.washingtonpost.com/lifestyle/style/an-australian-courts-gag-order-is-no-mat...


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Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: Donuel
Date: 16 Dec 18 - 03:04 PM

Ever notice the church has narrow stairway to heaven and a Highway to Hell?


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Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: keberoxu
Date: 16 Dec 18 - 01:41 PM

Long before Rome, there was Byzantium.
Well before the Catholic Christians, there were
the Eastern Orthodox Christians.

And not all that much attention, in mass media,
goes to revelations of clerical abuse,
be it of minors or of grown adults,
by Eastern Orthodox clerics.

If you look, and one doesn't have all that far to look,
the Eastern Orthodox wing of Christianity
is also breaking the silence about clerical abuse,
as it has been a fact of life in that denomination for a long time,
and the cover-ups and bureaucratic power plays
have been equally pervasive.


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Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: Donuel
Date: 16 Dec 18 - 11:42 AM

When it comes to sex and the Church it resembles the secular world.
Just don't try this at home.


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Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: ollaimh
Date: 16 Dec 18 - 11:09 AM

people like holy joe have studied child abuse for a long time with no answers,because they are worshipping evil and calling it god. they are the enablers who let it happen. they have to be jailed. the abusers have to be jailed. yes serious unishment and not rehabiulitation for the irredeemable because that is what they are irredeemably evil becuase they have spent lifetimes, and centuries looking evil in the face and colcluding it is just a conundrum, a puzzler. the real puzzler is why any one belives in the mad god and the evil churches.


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Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: ollaimh
Date: 16 Dec 18 - 11:06 AM

yes the abuse goes well beyond sex, it is about power butjust as importantly, and usually ignored, it about evil.   the demons are inside the gates, the evilest people alive are protecting these abusers because they are a new level of hell on earth. christianity has been devil worshiping since saint augistine of hippo and it only got worse in the middle ages. it has perpetrated mass murder world wide and still is. war criminals like tony blair find god, bush never left god and that god is evil


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Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: Rapparee
Date: 15 Dec 18 - 07:57 PM

Now there's this.


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Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 13 Dec 18 - 02:25 PM

Well that's a bit of an odd story by any standards, Jim.

Do you remember Oliver? He used to have a bit of time for priests. I said the wrong thing to him once or twice. I think there is a strain of thought that they were sometimes from the poor families themselves, often a long way from home....more to pitied than condemned.

Some people have suggested that the only reason the Pope won't let priests be married and have normal sex lives is that it would cost twice as much to employ a married priest.

Wrong way to look at it really - that way you get two people working for sod all. You get the vicar's wife doing stuff as well. Plus you get a married man. and everyone knows they never have sexual problems.


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Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Dec 18 - 12:51 PM

The abuse goes gfar beyond sexual and in my opinion was as much an expression of power than of sexual perversion - read about the industial schools or the Magdalene laundries to get examples of largely non-sexual abuse

I've told this story before, but it merits re-telling
Traveller, Mary Delaney was one of the finest singers we met
Both she and her sister were blind from birth - their father managed to get treatment for Mary's sister
She was operated on and after te operation, when they removed the dressings, she found she had her sight back - it lasted for a short time but faded again into total blindness
When Mary's father told the hospital priest what had occurred he asked, "did you say, thanks be to god?
He replied that he had been too excited
"That's why she lost her sight again". the priest told him
When we met the father we found that guilt had driven him to the bottle and he had become a helpless drunk

As far as I am concerned, that goes far beyond abuse and was sheer sadism - a total misuse of religious authority
THat is what I was I meant when I referred to "the backing of a supreme being"
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: Iains
Date: 13 Dec 18 - 11:48 AM

Big Al I was brought up a catholic with a secondary education by Jesuits. The scout troop I belonged to was run by the parish priest.In my entire time as a "child" I can honestly say I had not heard of even a rumour of abuse. It obviously happened in many other places-the statistics cannot be denied. That it severely traumatized many of those
abused is also beyond dispute. That it destroyed lives and families is not disputed. Having not experienced it first hand I cannot truly imagine the depths of misery experienced by the victims.
As a partial aside I was watching a you tube clip recently on Irish males that emigrated to Britain in the 50's and 60's. Many are now in poor health and living in bedsits in places like Birmingham. One of them being interviewed told how he had been abused by a priest in a county home in baltimore. He was then threatened by the senior priest there with dire punishment if he "spoke out of turn" I cannot imagine his feelings of pain, rejection, betrayal and hopelessness in such a situation. It really was a gut wrenching story.

No. you are right I cannot understand the betrayal of trust, but I can appreciate how such things can wreck lives, and their individual stories play havoc with the emotions. But this comes nowhere near to appreciating how the victims felt.


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Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 13 Dec 18 - 10:32 AM

I think the thing is Iain - maybe you don't understand what the betrayal of trust felt like.

I came from an orange and green family. There was some sort of family bust up with the priest, and my Mum was the only kid out of four , brought up as a Protestant.

I really loved my cousin. He was about a year older than me. Though we went to different churches and different schools. We were very close.

I can remember how proud his Mum was and she gave us a photo of him wearing a sash and praying at his first communion. He became a choir boy.When he come round in his new suit. We had to sit round listening to him sing the mass in Latin, and admire him. Of course he went to the teaching brothers school. I was even went on holiday with him one year with the brothers. the teaching brothers .

His Mum was proud when he went to Catholic Grammar Scool and got his O levels , all grade one.two years early. They were SO poor, but they totally respectful of the clergy. THey lived in a house in the back streets of St Helens that had been condemned before the 1st world war.

These people were as poor as people were allowed to be in 1950's England They gave their love and respect, and they entrusted their child to the care of that church.

When thirty years later, I found out how my little cousin whom I loved, had been abused. It broke my heart that people could be so bloody rotten. Its when its under your nose that the stink appals.


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Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Dec 18 - 07:20 AM

Why not answer the points rather than throwing stones at them
The Clerics used their religious calling to rape children and the Church used its religious power to hide and continue those rapes
Your one liner- dismissals don't count as debate as far as I'm concerned
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: Iains
Date: 13 Dec 18 - 06:08 AM

"no other group has ever had the backing of a supreme being to carry out and hide at least a century of clerical abuse"

Why try to deliberately destroy an interesting and important thread by posting arrant nonsense? Are you saying God encourages child abuse? you are a fool!


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Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Dec 18 - 05:35 AM

"It is open as to whether this is deserved or not."
It most certainly is not - the world has moved on from this silly argument and the church stands on the brink of extinction due to these know cases of clerical abuse having been deliberately covered up by the hierarchy
Whataboutism doesn't wash here - no other group has ever had the backing of a supreme being to carry out and hide at least a century of clerical abuse
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: Iains
Date: 13 Dec 18 - 05:09 AM

There seems to be undercurrent in this thread of hammering the Catholic Church. It is open as to whether this is deserved or not.
Catholicism cannot claim the monopoly of clerical abuse claims.
It might be better to consider the problem in a wider context. In some countries today it is necessary to be vetted, before being allowed near children. It does not prevent abuse but it must certainly reduce it.
There is no excuse for abuse - even historical abuse where social mores may have been slightly more relaxed.
But I hear no protest about the 350,000 under age British soldiers that
served in WW1 and surely the resulting deaths and severe injuries suffered by them were a far greater abuse. Yet this historical fact is never discussed in terms of abuse, despite the fact that the government of the day relied on their numbers to delay the introduction of conscription.
Much of the abuse discussed is historical yet no mention is made of ongoing abuse today
Grooming by Asian gangs is a fact,trying to conceal by addressingit as racist abuse is a mockery of justice.
Bacha bazi, meaning 'boy play', is a tradition found across Afghanistan, where boys are trained to dance and forced to share sexual "favours".
Child soldiers in Africa are suffering abuse.
UN peacekeepers are betraying their uniforms and raison d'être by constantly hitting the headlines for child sexual abuse during their various missions. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Child_sexual_abuse_by_UN_peacekeepers
It is admirable to highlight historical abuse,but should not the emphasis be on the here and now in order to prevent further cases of abuse?


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Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Dec 18 - 03:53 AM

It is reckoned that the most common occurrences of paedophelia take place within families or known circles of friends and acquaintances.

We are discussing institutional sexual deviation here, where powerful an influential State bodies have either ignored the rape o children other than when they have been covered up to protect their position in society - a different ball-game altogether
Hopefully, as far as the church goes, that will never be allowed to happen again, but that doesn't mean there isn't a mess still to be uncovered and debts to be paid
New cases are still being found and the church is still dragging its feet over paying for their crimes - last year it was reckoned that the Irish Church still owes €1.3 billion in reparation, despite the fact that the State agreed to pay the lions share
In behaving the way they have, the church is rapidly losing all credibility and influence, as they should - probably the only positive thing to come out of this sick, sorry mess
Ironically, thanks to the Church's behaviour, Ireland now has mixed sex marriage and the same right to pregnancy termination as does the civilised world - next year (hopefully), divorce and women's position in society will be dealt with responsibly without the dead hand of the church influencing any decision
That the church threatened politicians who voted 'wrongly' over abortion with excommunication, indicates that they have learned nothing

Their behaviour as as much a betrayal of the faithful as it is a drag on modern society as a whole - it is also a gun to their own head
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 12 Dec 18 - 09:56 PM

'Does sex with children happen more often in churches or among clergy?'

Theres a tendency to look where the light is.

One of my oldest friends was in the Quaker Friends Ambulance Corps in World War 2. No longer with us. But he told me that in the arab countries where he served, many families had fairly relaxed attitude to what we would call paedophilia.

He was in this home, fairly ordinary arab family home - and old Grandad came in and started playing with the little kid's balls. It seemed to be acceptable behaviour.

I dunno - but it seems to be a strain within people.
Perhaps some of the trauma victims experience is from our unrelaxed attitude.

I've gotten old. I don't know anything about anything any more. My Dad was a cop and used to stake out the bogs in the park arresting people presumably trying to sort out some sort of sex life. I've seen changes in attitudes to sexuality so profound in my lifetime.

I can't even begin to guess what will be 'normal' in a few years time.


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