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BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations

robomatic 15 Aug 18 - 08:44 PM
robomatic 15 Aug 18 - 08:46 PM
Steve Shaw 15 Aug 18 - 08:48 PM
Rapparee 15 Aug 18 - 10:26 PM
Joe Offer 16 Aug 18 - 02:56 AM
Senoufou 16 Aug 18 - 03:27 AM
Steve Shaw 16 Aug 18 - 05:28 AM
Jim Carroll 16 Aug 18 - 07:15 AM
Jim Carroll 16 Aug 18 - 10:41 AM
robomatic 16 Aug 18 - 06:28 PM
Senoufou 16 Aug 18 - 06:47 PM
Joe Offer 16 Aug 18 - 08:12 PM
Rapparee 16 Aug 18 - 08:45 PM
robomatic 17 Aug 18 - 12:55 AM
Donuel 17 Aug 18 - 05:29 PM
punkfolkrocker 17 Aug 18 - 08:33 PM
Donuel 17 Aug 18 - 10:15 PM
Nigel Paterson 18 Aug 18 - 07:28 AM
Senoufou 18 Aug 18 - 08:14 AM
Steve Shaw 18 Aug 18 - 09:17 AM
Senoufou 18 Aug 18 - 09:24 AM
mg 18 Aug 18 - 01:31 PM
Donuel 18 Aug 18 - 03:48 PM
Joe Offer 18 Aug 18 - 06:11 PM
Rapparee 18 Aug 18 - 11:50 PM
Jim Carroll 19 Aug 18 - 03:27 AM
Jim Carroll 19 Aug 18 - 05:28 AM
Nigel Paterson 19 Aug 18 - 10:46 AM
Donuel 19 Aug 18 - 11:34 AM
Joe Offer 19 Aug 18 - 11:35 AM
Steve Shaw 19 Aug 18 - 12:04 PM
Jim Carroll 19 Aug 18 - 12:22 PM
Senoufou 19 Aug 18 - 12:37 PM
Nigel Paterson 19 Aug 18 - 01:43 PM
Donuel 19 Aug 18 - 03:58 PM
Joe Offer 19 Aug 18 - 06:25 PM
Senoufou 19 Aug 18 - 06:57 PM
Rapparee 19 Aug 18 - 09:33 PM
Joe Offer 20 Aug 18 - 01:22 AM
Senoufou 20 Aug 18 - 02:33 AM
Steve Shaw 20 Aug 18 - 05:19 AM
Nigel Paterson 20 Aug 18 - 05:20 AM
Jim Carroll 20 Aug 18 - 06:35 AM
Donuel 20 Aug 18 - 01:38 PM
keberoxu 20 Aug 18 - 01:47 PM
Donuel 21 Aug 18 - 12:07 PM
Jim Carroll 21 Aug 18 - 12:16 PM
Nigel Paterson 22 Aug 18 - 07:44 AM
Senoufou 22 Aug 18 - 07:51 AM
ollaimh 22 Aug 18 - 01:07 PM

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Subject: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: robomatic
Date: 15 Aug 18 - 08:44 PM

I knew during the Boston scandals that this was just the beginning. Boston folks are no more prone to be abusers or abused than any other localities.

Abuse and coverups have been publicized in Australia in the recent past, and now big time in Philadelphia. We have first class movies closely linked to events which deal with organized abuse and coverup. Primary in my mind are two greats: Philomena. Spotlight.

You do not mess with basic human drives without consequences. Think of the forces within nature which one sublimates at one's peril. Think of grass bursting through sidewalks, of water wearing down rock, of Spock during pan farr. You can legislate, you can regulate, you can perorate, but everyone does it, or there be consequences.

Deuteronomy says thou shalt not muzzle the ox when it treads the grain.

In early church history, priests could have spouses
. It's time to consider giving priests some options. Marry after ordination, get neutered, or join a twelve step program addressing this basic drive.


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Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: robomatic
Date: 15 Aug 18 - 08:46 PM

Sorry.
Did not spell correctly nor describe the phenomenon of Pon farr .


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Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Aug 18 - 08:48 PM

I'll try to get my head round the concept that a man with a predilection for little boys can be cured by his taking a wife.


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Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: Rapparee
Date: 15 Aug 18 - 10:26 PM

LDS (Mormons).
Baptists.
Methodists.
Mennonite.
Haredim.

And many, many others. It's not only celibacy (none of the above have celibate ministers or leaders), but like rape it's a crime of violence, power, and a violation of trust.


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Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: Joe Offer
Date: 16 Aug 18 - 02:56 AM

I wonder what the Pennsylvania grand jury uncovered that was new information. The report released this week covered 6 of the 8 Catholic dioceses in Pennsylvania. There were 1,000 victims, and 300 priests were accused of the crimes about - 8 percent of the 5,000 priests who served in Pennsylvania during the 70-year period covered by the report. I'm sure that most, if not all, of the crimes have already been exposed, but a study like this gives a clear vision of the scope of the crimes, which is staggering. While the individual crimes may not be new reports, there is certainly new information about the misconduct of bishops in covering up these crimes.

Here's an article about the grand jury report. It's from the National Catholic Reporter, which was the first publication to report incidents of sexual abuse by priests - and it has been reporting this story continuously since 1983:
Grand jury reports on the two other Pennsylvania dioceses (Philadelphia and one other) were completed a while ago.

I would like to see comprehensive investigations like this done in every diocese.

-Joe-


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Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: Senoufou
Date: 16 Aug 18 - 03:27 AM

I think we're confusing sexual frustration due to enforced celibacy and rampant paedophilia.

I had a friend who was the daughter of a very respected Methodist minister. Her parents seemed happy, but for years during her childhood her father had secretly sexually abused her.

I think paedophiles find that being scoutmasters, choirmasters, youth sports coaches, orphanage workers, priests, charity workers in disaster areas abroad etc gives them easy access to vulnerable children.

Once convicted, I wouldn't ever release them again. They present a danger well into their old-age.


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Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Aug 18 - 05:28 AM

Best to take individual cases on their merits, I think.


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Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Aug 18 - 07:15 AM

"Best to take individual cases on their merits, I think."
Me too - without maximum sentencing wwe would have more jails than houses

In my couple-of-years I befriended a music teacher with whom I became very friendly
He once told me that he was becoming extremely worried about his feelings towards some of his young girl pupils
He told me one drunken night that he intended to commit suicide if he ever found he couldn't control those feelings
Because I have always been an admirer of women doesn't mean I am a potential rapist
I've always believed that abuses such as these are mainly a mixture of weakness and abuse of power - as opposite as they may seem.
Clerical did what they did because their position allowed them to; as with the physical abuse mane of those in their care experienced, it was a manifestation of extreme power
Even homosexuality didn't feature in the equation - like same sex in prisons, they availed themselves of what was available to them

I think "evil" is a far too important and useful a word to be overused - Brendan Smythe and his ilk displayed traits of evil, most of the rest were somewhat pathetically weak, and in some ways, victims of their own weaknesses
The real criminals were those who covered the crimes up and allowed them to continue   
One of the few 'good' (reservedly) things to have come out of the whole mess is that the church will vener again be in a position to behave as they did; (hopefully) those days are gone forever
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Aug 18 - 10:41 AM

"In my couple-of-years " -damned keyboard
Should read "In my couple-of-years in London bed-sits"
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: robomatic
Date: 16 Aug 18 - 06:28 PM

Various points taken (what Rapparee, no Scientologists?).

I agree that power can bring out the abuser latent among us.

BUT.

I think more research should be done on the very point I raised. Does institutionalizing celibacy result in derangement of what otherwise would be normal drives. Look at what happens in prisons. Much of the rape that occurs there is among heterosexuals.

I remember a scene from a cop show I saw years ago. A cop is beating the crap out of a wreck of a guilt-riddled molester. The molester is barely able to get the words out: "YOU'RE WORSE than me! I can't help what I do, but YOU CAN!"


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Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: Senoufou
Date: 16 Aug 18 - 06:47 PM

In UK prisons, so my many inmates I worked with told me, there is very little 'rape' going on. None of them had experienced it and none had heard of it happening on the wings either.

If celibate priests cannot control their sexual urges, why do they not make secret assignations with women? (I actually think quite a few do)
Why turn to paedophilia?

And maintaining that paedophile clerics are not evil would I'm sure be met with rage by their victims.
Sexually abusing children IS evil.


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Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: Joe Offer
Date: 16 Aug 18 - 08:12 PM

The Fresh Air (click) radio program had an interview last week of filmmaker Jennifer Fox. Fox's movie, "The Tale," as it was called, was based on Fox's own experiences with her male running coach and female horseback riding coach — which Fox considered normal at the time: "I wrote at 13 with no concept of abuse at all," she says. "It was a love story; it was a relationship."

At the time it was happening, Fox felt she was in love with her coaches, although she vomited every time the male coach had sex with her. Fox says it wasn't until she was about 40 years old, that she came to understand that she was being abused all those years ago. This was a shocking revelation to me - that at the time it was happening, many of the victims did not understand the harm that was being done to them. No wonder it took so long for these decades-old crimes to come to light.

It's clear that Fox is still struggling to understand what happened to her and to the teachers she loved and trusted. She felt that these two adults were the only people in the world who loved and understood her - and part of her still feels that way.

This program is worth a listen, but I'm not sure it will be playable outside the U.S.

-Joe-


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Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: Rapparee
Date: 16 Aug 18 - 08:45 PM

I didn't include Scientology because I thought that the problems there were too well known to bother with. I can research it if you like, but it is very rampant and the teachings are odd.


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Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: robomatic
Date: 17 Aug 18 - 12:55 AM

No need, Rapparee.


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Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: Donuel
Date: 17 Aug 18 - 05:29 PM

Sorrow and shame, sorrow and shame.
Vatican response


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Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 17 Aug 18 - 08:33 PM

Is there something in the bible that says it still counts as celibacy if they are only kids...???????????


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Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: Donuel
Date: 17 Aug 18 - 10:15 PM

In this case as many little girls were raped as little boys.


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Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: Nigel Paterson
Date: 18 Aug 18 - 07:28 AM

Some passing thoughts...the Greek Orthodox Church encourages/prefers it's priests to be married. However, if a priest marries, they cannot be appointed a bishop or higher.

I can find no research papers linking celibacy to sexual abuse.

It is likely that individuals who're sexually attracted to children choose occupations like the priesthood because it provides them with a seemingly perfect cover for their activities.

As a former psychotherapist, I have worked with both victim & perpetrator. For the most part, I found the perpetrators to be devious, manipulative & possessing a grossly distorted view of their actions & consequent effects. They know precisely what to say & do to convince health professionals they will not re-offend in order to return to their deviant behaviour. It is a form of sexual addiction, deeply rooted within the psyche of the individual.


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Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: Senoufou
Date: 18 Aug 18 - 08:14 AM

It is preferred that Muslim Imams should be married, according to my husband. Of course, marriage doesn't necessarily guarantee that a man will never desire sex with children. (eg fathers abusing their offspring, in spite of having a wife)

I agree with Nigel above - paedophiles craftily seek out certain professions/volunteering/sports coaching etc positions in order to gain access to children.

I have read that some paedophiles convince themselves that their victims actually 'love' them and enjoy the sex. An idea I find particularly sickening.

I once refused to give a newly-released sexually-abusing father of twin girls in my class an interview about their educational progress unless my headmistress was present. (He was forbidden to live with them of course after his release)
He sat there saying how much he 'loved' his daughters and was 'so proud of them'. I felt sick. He must have read our faces, but he was as brazen as they come. The twins were 12 years old, so his sentence must have been fairly short. They should have thrown away the key. Or shot him.


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Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Aug 18 - 09:17 AM

That wouldn't help.


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Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: Senoufou
Date: 18 Aug 18 - 09:24 AM

I disagree Steve. Six feet under in a wooden box, he'd never be a danger to children ever again.


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Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: mg
Date: 18 Aug 18 - 01:31 PM

Joe...the people who issued the report did not say that most of the abuse has been exposed already. No. What they said was they were sure they had not gotten them all and that many thousands are probably not reported.


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Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: Donuel
Date: 18 Aug 18 - 03:48 PM

I am sure the 300 perpetrators have the distinguishing details of the social psychopath Nigel.

The perps and pervs have unique ideals. Their history however is violent and violating.

The victims are above 1,000 but those affected are probably over 10,000


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Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: Joe Offer
Date: 18 Aug 18 - 06:11 PM

Donuel says: In this case as many little girls were raped as little boys.

Which case is this, Donuel? I'm having trouble finding statistical information in the Pennsylvania report. The 887-page report gives a lot of information, but I haven't found a statistical analysis of the data collected in the investigation.

The most comprehensive study I know of, is the 2004 John Jay Report (click) conducted by the John Jay College of Criminal Justice, commissioned by the U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops. For most of the crimes listed, boys were victims about 4 times as often as girls. The introduction to the Pennsylvania report says that most of the 1,000 victims were boys, but that there were also girls.

MG, now that I've looked through the Pennsylvania report, it's clear that the crimes covered by the report had already been dealt with by some sort of settlement or criminal prosecution. The report's introduction says that most likely there were thousands of other cases that were not reported, or for which records had been lost or destroyed.

What this Pennsylvania report does, is a comprehensive study of how dioceses handled the crimes that were reported to them - a study focused not on the abusers, but on the management of the dioceses and their response to this abuse. And it's not a pretty picture. The report covers six dioceses - and not one of these dioceses responded to these crimes in what I would consider to be an admirable fashion. Not one. Maybe they did the right thing under certain bishops but not under others - I haven't gotten to that point yet.

The Archdiocese of Philadelphia was covered in a grand jury investigation a few years ago, and that investigation resulted in convictions of some leaders in the diocese. I don't know what happened in the eighth diocese in the state, which was covered in another grand jury report.

In 2002, the U.S. Catholic bishops set up a fairly good system for preventing and responding to incidents of child sexual abuse by priests and by church employees. It did not, however, set any standards for bishops. This grand jury report is a good start on that path. I wonder how the bishops will respond.

-Joe-

P.S. This is a very long report, but the introduction is of manageable length. Please take the time at least to read the introduction to the Pennsylvania report (click).


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Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: Rapparee
Date: 18 Aug 18 - 11:50 PM

You can find more info, lots more info, here. There's also this.

Celibacy does not, by itself, cause the problems under discussion. Priests have, for centuries, had concubines, mistresses, even wives (e.g., the Bishop of Galway). Chaucer's Host says of the Monk,

Thou woldest han been a trede-foul aright.        
Haddestow as greet a leve, as thou hast might        
To parfourne al thy lust in engendrure,        
Thou haddest bigeten many a creature.


Chaucer was actually not kind to the Prioress, either.

Four years ago, priests' wives and mistresses reminded the Vatican that they actually exist.

I can personally name three or four priests who left the priesthood and married the women they were "seeing" and another who left but did not marry his "friend." The last was seen almost nightly entering her home and leaving in the morning -- people merely smiled and winked. Mind you, all involved were adults! I suspect that if a priest or any religious who abused children would not have had a long lifespan left after the parents found out!


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Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Aug 18 - 03:27 AM

It's interesting to see how the Church are handling he Pope's forthcoming visit to Ireland - not particularly well
Our papers are full of critical articles and letters, mainly from the faithful on his lip-service meaningless apology for decades of clerical abuse and it hasn't helped that Mary McAleese, one of the two most influential Presidents in Irish history has been told that 'there are not tickets' for her to attend the Rally
Mary, a devout Catholic, has now publicly described the appearances at Phoenix Park and Knock as "right-wing rallies"
As far as Ireland is concerned, the Church has been at the crossroads of survival for some time now - crass stupidity and a refusal to face up to responsibility is rapidly becoming the deciding factor.
It isn't helping that they still owe the victims of institution €1.3billion
in agreed reparation
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Aug 18 - 05:28 AM

The Irish immigration department have refused visas to at least five Pakistani priests wishing to attend the Pope's visit on the grounds that "they are not closely enough connected with the event"
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: Nigel Paterson
Date: 19 Aug 18 - 10:46 AM

Donuel, I encountered both psychopathic & sociopathic presentations. The lone operator & those for whom 'sharing' was integral to their pathology. One of my colleagues found it impossible to work with patients who had sexually abused children; a not uncommon reaction. Pædophilia, a psychiatric disorder, is no more 'curable' than homosexuality, despite the actions & beliefs of sections of society. I cling to the hope that there will always be an individual who forms a new understanding of their behaviour; resets the boundaries & establishes the necessary controls to resist the monstrous drive to sexually abuse a child.
                                        Nigel Paterson(former psychotherapist & survivor of 'clerical abuse'.)


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Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: Donuel
Date: 19 Aug 18 - 11:34 AM

There is hope for the innate wiring and understanding of the brain to change because where there is life there is hope. For the throng of society it takes too long for the deranged to change.
Onward and upward Nigel.


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Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: Joe Offer
Date: 19 Aug 18 - 11:35 AM

Nigel, if paedophilia is an incurable disorder, how should law enforcement respond to it? Is life in prison the only answer? If it is a disorder, is it a crime?


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Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Aug 18 - 12:04 PM

Surely the point of imprisonment should be to remove people from society who are a danger, and try to rehabilitate them...


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Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Aug 18 - 12:22 PM

"Is life in prison the only answer?"
It isn't any answer Joe, it's a combination of forcible suppression and revenge
Rather than helping sexual aberrations it adds to them
Until this whole affair is discussed in full and all possible causes examined by qualified people it will remain a major problem

I don't think the hierarchy of the Church is within a million miles of allowing that to happen - two much unwashed dirty linen
Meanwhile, the Church continues to fight to hold onto its old influence
They ahre clinging onto their grip on education and are opposing moves to outlaw the demanding of Baptismal certificates, despite the widespread shortages of schools.
The are still opposing the referendum result on same sex couples and the Pope (or his gofers) has made it clear that homesexuals are not welcome at his knees-up.
The Bishops have issued an edict that Church run hospitals should defy the law and refuse to carry our pregnancy terminations - this has, to some degree, spread to secular hospitals
The Church seems to be declaring war on the Government and the will of the Irish people
If only the Pope still had an army eh?
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: Senoufou
Date: 19 Aug 18 - 12:37 PM

If paedophilia is a disorder, and the 'sufferers' of it are not criminals, it is still surely imperative to exclude them from society in some form of closed institution.
Somewhere rather like Broadmoor.

Children's safety and protection should be paramount.

I watched a recent documentary about paedophiles in a USA prison. They had had endless therapy by specialists, yet were still considered to be a danger and unfit for release.

I'm so sorry Nigel that you have been a victim of sexual abuse.


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Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: Nigel Paterson
Date: 19 Aug 18 - 01:43 PM

This longish article in Wikipedia lays out current thinking regarding pædophilia from a psychiatric point of view:
               Article

To Donuel, most surely, where there is life there is hope. Your elegant prose: "For the throng of society it takes too long for the deranged to change". This is painfully true..."Lock 'em up & throw away the key...chemical castration, etc, etc.. "Today's society demands instant solutions; society must be protected & rightly so.
      
To Joe & Steve, law enforcement & mental health professionals need a protocol that alerts an integrated team. Imprisonment combined with rehabilitation has been the stated aim in the US & UK for a good long time, but the results are very uneven with too many, catastrophic releases, often exacerbated by offenders not taking prescribed medication.

I haven't looked into the research, but I suspect genetics will play an increasingly important rôle.

I have training & experience & anecdotes aplenty... answers have I none, but these measured exchanges are a microcosm of the macrocosmic debate, alluded to by Jim.

I fear the cost of 'getting it right' would be astronomical.


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Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: Donuel
Date: 19 Aug 18 - 03:58 PM

Joe In the DC area this tragedy orbits around Mr. Wurle who has a high rank in the GOD Business and resides in town. So we get so see many local stories, confessions and victim statements that probably do not leave the area.
I am not saying the victims are equally male and female however the perpetrators and accessory criminals are exclusively male.


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Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: Joe Offer
Date: 19 Aug 18 - 06:25 PM

I've studied this issue of child sexual abuse for a long, long time, and I still have no answers. I started wondering about it when I was a Catholic seminary student in the late 1960s. We had to go through an extensive battery of tests, concluding with an interview with a psychiatrist. And then one Monday morning, 9 of my classmates were gone - with no explanation. They tended to be the weird guys in the class, so we surmised their removal had something to do with sexual problems. The diocese said they were doing testing to make sure that no "problem people" made it into the priesthood.

And then in the 1970s, many U.S. Catholic dioceses sank millions of dollars into state-of-the-art treatment centers for priests. The psychiatrists who ran the centers told the bishops that priests with sex or alcohol or mental problems would be fully cured after 6 to 12 months of residential treatment. The returning priests were certified as ready for duty, and the bishops believed them.

But then in the mid-1980s, the independent weekly National Catholic Reporter (NCR) began to publish articles about sexual abuse by priests. It wasn't until a 2002 Boston Globe series of articles, that the abuse scandal came to the knowledge of the general public. The U.S. Catholic bishops began discussing the problem in 1985, but did not come up with procedures for responding until after the Globe articles in 2002. Until 2002, each individual diocese followed its own procedures. My Sacramento diocese and many others offered victims counseling and a $25,000 or $40,000 no-questions-asked settlement, and reported incidents to police for criminal investigation. But many dioceses did all sorts of game-playing and coverups to evade responsibility. But overall, the U.S. Catholic Church has handled the problem reasonably well since 2002.

But there still really aren't any answers or understanding. Nigel says paedophilia is an incurable disorder, and I tend to believe him. But if that's the case, how does one respond to this disorder? Certainly, our primary obligation is to protect children from sexual abuse. But if the offender can't help himself, then certainly he deserves some level of compassion. Life in prison would remove the offender from the opportunity to commit crime, but prison inmates known to have abused children are often murdered or raped by other inmates.

So, I just don't know how our society should respond to this crime of child sexual abuse.

This Pennsylvania report is challenging to read. Responses by the Catholic dioceses to Child sex abuse have not been uniform. Sometimes, the response is compassionate and appropriate, sometimes it's confused and clumsy, sometimes it's callous and cold, and sometimes it appears that church officials were just plain running scared and didn't know what to do.

It's a mess, and the mess hasn't been fixed yet. Nobody knows how to fix the mess, so who's to blame?

-Joe-


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Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: Senoufou
Date: 19 Aug 18 - 06:57 PM

UK prisons strictly segregate sex offenders from other inmates. They have their own wing, and even on Visits they sit in completely separated areas.
There are at least eight prisons here which are solely for sex offenders. (for example, HM Prison Bure, on the site of the old RAF airfield at Coltishall, Norfolk with over 500 inmates.)
And while they're locked in there they aren't harming or ruining the lives of children.


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Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: Rapparee
Date: 19 Aug 18 - 09:33 PM

I don't see any way at this time to treat pedophiles so that they are "cured." A person convicted of pedophilia can, I think, only be segregated from society, given whatever treatment is available, and left in a comfortable (albeit spartan) environment. No chance to interact with children -- a life of "prayer and penance" if you will. Perhaps when they are old they can be released under supervision.

The Pennsylvania report shows that many of the offenders are dead. Such action were not unknown to the Church and I think that much of the disgust and horror of the laity and everyone stems from the Church's refusal to acknowledge these crimes and simply shunt the offender around.

Nuns are not exempt. They, too, did their share of abuse and I don't mean slapping hands. Read the reports in the Bishop Accountability website I posted earlier. And they, too, were shunted around....


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Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: Joe Offer
Date: 20 Aug 18 - 01:22 AM

Hi, Rap - yes, there were nuns who molested students, too. My wife went to a Catholic high school in Rhode Island that had some residential students, and the resident students said there were some nuns they had to watch out for, because they'd make sexual advances.

In the late 1980s, I was friends with a priest in the Catholic Committee on Scouting in Sacramento. This priest, a member of the Salvatorian order, had been a scoutmaster while he served as a priest on a previous assignment in Alabama, and he was a strong supporter of the Boy Scouts while he was in Sacramento. For a while, I attended the Sacramento parish where this guy was pastor. He did an excellent job as a priest. He interacted with people well, and he made sense when he talked. He was nice to my kids, but the opportunity didn't arise for him to have much interaction with my kids.

I lost track of him when he transferred to Wisconsin in 2001. And then his name was in the news late last year:


    Priest LED Away in Handcuffs after Judge Hands down 1-year Sentence for Sexual Contact with Child

    By Ashley Luthern
    Milwaukee Journal Sentinel
    December 15, 2017

    The Rev. Robert R. Marsicek, 75, who had been the subject of numerous complaints from parents over the years and escaped a criminal charge in 2013, appeared in Milwaukee Circuit Court on Thursday.
    It started when she was in first grade, when she still had her baby teeth. Robert Marsicek, a priest she trusted, repeatedly molested her at a Catholic school in Wauwatosa. "My little self thought it was OK and I thought that this was normal," she said.
    The girl, now 16, told a Milwaukee County Circuit Court judge how she cried herself to sleep or didn't sleep at all. She developed anxiety. She thought of hurting herself, even ending her life.
    "I began to realize that he chose this for himself," she said. "He did this to me and I did not ask for it."
    She asked Judge Mark A. Sanders to put Marsicek behind bars, even though prosecutors had recommended probation as part of a plea agreement.
    Marsicek, 76, was convicted of touching the girl while at Pius X Parish and school in Wauwatosa between 2007 and 2011.
    The girl told police the priest, known as "Father Bob," had grabbed her buttocks, touched her breast and reached under her jumper to "pat" her vagina on different occasions, according to the criminal complaint.
    "I would love to see him spend the rest of his life in jail," she said. "I was told that he wouldn't because he's 'too old,' but why should I care about his age when he didn't care about mine?
    "I will always have what he did to me in the back of my mind," she said.
    Sanders listened intently and then, to the surprise of many in the courtroom, he sentenced Marsicek to one year in jail.
    "Over a period of years, you repeatedly took sexual advantage of a young child — that by itself is grave conduct," Sanders told the priest. "It wasn't penetrative sex, it wasn't physically abusive sex, but there is no other way to describe it."
    His conduct was compounded because he was a priest, Sanders said.
    "It's not just an adult who has preyed upon the trust of a young child, but it is an adult who brings the weight of the church with them," he said. "The consequence of that is remarkable."
    Marsicek originally faced three felony counts of first-degree sexual assault of a child but entered an agreement with prosecutors to plead guilty to fourth-degree sexual assault, a misdemeanor that involves sexual touching.
    Marsicek apologized for his actions in court. His attorney and several others also spoke on his behalf, detailing his prior good work as a priest.
    But Sanders said those deeds are now "tainted."
    Marsicek was removed from ministry at St. Pius X Catholic Parish in Wauwatosa, Mother of Good Counsel Parish and School in Milwaukee and Wauwatosa Catholic School in 2013 after a teacher at Wauwatosa Catholic reported that Marsicek inappropriately touched a young girl.
    At the time, Marsicek maintained he was just being affectionate and that any inappropriate touching was inadvertent. Since then, he has been placed on a "safety plan" through his religious order that includes counseling and ensuring he does not have contact with minors. He is still a priest.

    Marsicek had a history of questionable contact with children during his 12 years at St. Pius X and had been counseled repeatedly by the archdiocese and his religious order, the Society of the Divine Savior, or Salvatorians, to stop touching them, according to documents obtained by police in 2013.

    The sentence of jail time sends an important message to Marsicek and to the public, said Peter Isely of the Survivors Network of those Abused by Priests (SNAP).
    "He's going to feel what it's like to have his freedom confined and taken from him, in the way that he took it from this young child," Isely said. "It is a prison for many survivors when these things happen to them."


So, I don't know what to think or what to say. This was somebody I knew and trusted, and I thought I would be more likely than others to pick up on misconduct by priests - but I didn't suspect anything, and it's clear that very few people had any reason to suspect him.

This line bothered me: "His attorney and several others also spoke on his behalf, detailing his prior good work as a priest." I think it's true, that he did good work and had a positive effect on many people. He was a good guy, and I liked him a lot. But his crimes invalidated all the good that he might have accomplished, because the people he helped now feel betrayed. But still, I hope that something happens that puts things back in order for him. I don't know what that will be.

-Joe-


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Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: Senoufou
Date: 20 Aug 18 - 02:33 AM

ONE YEAR in jail??? One measly year?? You get that for shoplifting/dangerous driving here. He should have been given at least seven or eight years, and Sex Offenders Register for life.

However, there seems to be a policy of lenient sentencing for pervy priests. That 'Father' Tony McSweeney (the one I met and was blessed by) who abused boys in a children's home and had hundreds of images on his computer was given only three years.

Even as old men, paedophiles can still offend. At what age does a man become unable to have sexual feelings?

Nah. Don't let them out. Keep them inside and keep children safe.


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Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Aug 18 - 05:19 AM

We will not have justice if we paint everyone with the same broad brush, fail to take each case on its merits and judge a case from a long distance whilst far less in command of the facts of the case that those who are paid to investigate and prosecute it. And we will not have justice if we single out a particular kind of offender for throwing away the key.


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Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: Nigel Paterson
Date: 20 Aug 18 - 05:20 AM

Apologies to my American friends if you've already seen this. I hope it plays on both sides of the Atlantic.
             Press release


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Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Aug 18 - 06:35 AM

Two cardinals have now pulled out of the Child Protection Conference in Dublin to face their own demons
Jim Caarroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: Donuel
Date: 20 Aug 18 - 01:38 PM

Joe I bow to your expertise in this area of study and that we think along different pathways.I wanted to tell you I have an unhatched idea that links the desperation of behavior in WWII and the behavior of caretakers. The concept is still unformed but I'm putting it out there anyway.


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Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: keberoxu
Date: 20 Aug 18 - 01:47 PM

I suppose you all already know about the latest
People Of God letter from the Vatican?

Here's a link.

dated 20 August 2018


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Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: Donuel
Date: 21 Aug 18 - 12:07 PM

yep but there are some named guys who are stone walling.


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Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Aug 18 - 12:16 PM

Every single headline response in our press to this visit has been a negative one
That has never happened in my lifetime
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: Nigel Paterson
Date: 22 Aug 18 - 07:44 AM

I read the full text of the Pope's letter. In English it has the overtones of translation & as such, may suffer from under or over-nuancing. Quite how it will lead to fundamental change is beyond my ken at the moment

   The following abstract, despite it's age, remains pertinent. Copied from 'Psychiatry on Line'.


Are Sex Offenders Treatable? A Research Overview

Linda S. Grossman, Ph.D., Brian Martis, M.D., and Christopher G. Fichtner, M.D.
Published Online:1 Mar 1999https://doi.org/10.1176/ps.50.3.349

Abstract:

OBJECTIVE: Recent legislation in several states providing for civil commitment and preventive detention of sexually violent persons has stirred legal, clinical, and public policy controversies. The mandate for psychiatric evaluation and treatment has an impact on public mental health systems, requiring clinicians and public administrators to direct attention to treatment options. It is a common view that no treatments work for disorders involving sexual aggression. The authors examine this assumption by reviewing research on the effectiveness of treatment for adult male sex offenders. METHODS: MEDLINE was searched for key reviews and papers published during the years 1970 through 1998 that presented outcome data for sex offenders in treatment programs, individual case reports, and other clinically and theoretically important information. RESULTS: Although rigorous research designs are difficult to achieve, studies comparing treated and untreated sex offenders have been done. Measurement of outcome is flawed, with recidivism rates underestimating actual recurrence of the pathological behavior. Outcome research suggests a reduction in recidivism of 30 percent over seven years, with comparable effectiveness for hormonal and cognitive-behavioral treatments. Institutionally based treatment is associated with poorer outcome than outpatient treatment, and the nature of the offender's criminal record is an important prognostic factor. CONCLUSIONS: Although treatment does not eliminate sexual crime, research supports the view that treatment can decrease sex offense and protect potential victims. However, given the limitations in scientific knowledge and accuracy of outcome data, as well as the potential high human costs of prognostic uncertainty, any commitment to a social project substituting treatment for imprisonment of sexual aggressors must be accompanied by vigorous research.


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Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: Senoufou
Date: 22 Aug 18 - 07:51 AM

That's most interesting Nigel.
I hope the victims of the other 70% who do re-offend are happy about that.


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Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: ollaimh
Date: 22 Aug 18 - 01:07 PM

you can always count on our friends who aid and abet pedophiles coming out with spin to tell us all it was some bad apples, or that only a few did it. well the truth is the whole organization is complicit in a massive criminal conspiracy to cover up these major felonies and most of the senior people should be charged with felony child endangerment and jailed for life. nothing else will create a safe space for children in this corrupt and evil organization. msgr william lynne was on appeal for his pennslyvannia conviction for felony child endangerment. i hope the state wins that lynne was convicted not for child abuse but for his cover up, and not informing the parents in his area of the presence of pedophile priests.

look up the marcial case. he raped children in the hundreds for decades but raised millions for the rc (raping children) church. it's every where in that organizaton. they have a culture of cover up of major crimes. lock then up!!!!


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