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BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations

Big Al Whittle 13 Dec 18 - 02:25 PM
Jim Carroll 13 Dec 18 - 12:51 PM
Iains 13 Dec 18 - 11:48 AM
Big Al Whittle 13 Dec 18 - 10:32 AM
Jim Carroll 13 Dec 18 - 07:20 AM
Iains 13 Dec 18 - 06:08 AM
Jim Carroll 13 Dec 18 - 05:35 AM
Iains 13 Dec 18 - 05:09 AM
Jim Carroll 13 Dec 18 - 03:53 AM
Big Al Whittle 12 Dec 18 - 09:56 PM
Joe Offer 12 Dec 18 - 03:10 PM
Donuel 12 Dec 18 - 11:40 AM
Jim Carroll 12 Dec 18 - 05:54 AM
Brian May 12 Dec 18 - 05:21 AM
Jim Carroll 12 Dec 18 - 02:48 AM
Steve Shaw 10 Dec 18 - 08:11 PM
Brian May 10 Dec 18 - 05:49 PM
Big Al Whittle 09 Dec 18 - 01:13 PM
Big Al Whittle 09 Dec 18 - 02:56 AM
Steve Shaw 08 Dec 18 - 08:11 PM
Joe Offer 08 Dec 18 - 07:57 PM
Steve Shaw 08 Dec 18 - 07:38 PM
ollaimh 08 Dec 18 - 07:34 PM
Jim Carroll 05 Dec 18 - 04:39 AM
Steve Shaw 05 Dec 18 - 03:13 AM
ollaimh 05 Dec 18 - 01:31 AM
ollaimh 05 Dec 18 - 01:29 AM
keberoxu 03 Dec 18 - 01:13 PM
keberoxu 30 Nov 18 - 01:58 PM
Donuel 29 Nov 18 - 09:04 PM
keberoxu 29 Nov 18 - 11:07 AM
Steve Shaw 12 Nov 18 - 05:49 PM
Joe Offer 12 Nov 18 - 04:34 PM
Thompson 06 Nov 18 - 05:58 PM
mg 06 Nov 18 - 04:05 PM
mg 05 Nov 18 - 12:15 PM
Joe Offer 03 Nov 18 - 04:06 PM
Steve Shaw 03 Nov 18 - 03:01 PM
ollaimh 03 Nov 18 - 02:01 PM
ollaimh 10 Sep 18 - 08:15 PM
Thompson 09 Sep 18 - 09:42 AM
Joe Offer 09 Sep 18 - 02:25 AM
ollaimh 08 Sep 18 - 08:22 PM
Rapparee 06 Sep 18 - 10:23 PM
ollaimh 06 Sep 18 - 04:22 AM
Steve Shaw 01 Sep 18 - 06:28 AM
Rapparee 31 Aug 18 - 10:05 PM
Donuel 31 Aug 18 - 09:54 PM
Bonzo3legs 30 Aug 18 - 05:14 AM
mg 29 Aug 18 - 05:53 PM

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Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 13 Dec 18 - 02:25 PM

Well that's a bit of an odd story by any standards, Jim.

Do you remember Oliver? He used to have a bit of time for priests. I said the wrong thing to him once or twice. I think there is a strain of thought that they were sometimes from the poor families themselves, often a long way from home....more to pitied than condemned.

Some people have suggested that the only reason the Pope won't let priests be married and have normal sex lives is that it would cost twice as much to employ a married priest.

Wrong way to look at it really - that way you get two people working for sod all. You get the vicar's wife doing stuff as well. Plus you get a married man. and everyone knows they never have sexual problems.


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Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Dec 18 - 12:51 PM

The abuse goes gfar beyond sexual and in my opinion was as much an expression of power than of sexual perversion - read about the industial schools or the Magdalene laundries to get examples of largely non-sexual abuse

I've told this story before, but it merits re-telling
Traveller, Mary Delaney was one of the finest singers we met
Both she and her sister were blind from birth - their father managed to get treatment for Mary's sister
She was operated on and after te operation, when they removed the dressings, she found she had her sight back - it lasted for a short time but faded again into total blindness
When Mary's father told the hospital priest what had occurred he asked, "did you say, thanks be to god?
He replied that he had been too excited
"That's why she lost her sight again". the priest told him
When we met the father we found that guilt had driven him to the bottle and he had become a helpless drunk

As far as I am concerned, that goes far beyond abuse and was sheer sadism - a total misuse of religious authority
THat is what I was I meant when I referred to "the backing of a supreme being"
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: Iains
Date: 13 Dec 18 - 11:48 AM

Big Al I was brought up a catholic with a secondary education by Jesuits. The scout troop I belonged to was run by the parish priest.In my entire time as a "child" I can honestly say I had not heard of even a rumour of abuse. It obviously happened in many other places-the statistics cannot be denied. That it severely traumatized many of those
abused is also beyond dispute. That it destroyed lives and families is not disputed. Having not experienced it first hand I cannot truly imagine the depths of misery experienced by the victims.
As a partial aside I was watching a you tube clip recently on Irish males that emigrated to Britain in the 50's and 60's. Many are now in poor health and living in bedsits in places like Birmingham. One of them being interviewed told how he had been abused by a priest in a county home in baltimore. He was then threatened by the senior priest there with dire punishment if he "spoke out of turn" I cannot imagine his feelings of pain, rejection, betrayal and hopelessness in such a situation. It really was a gut wrenching story.

No. you are right I cannot understand the betrayal of trust, but I can appreciate how such things can wreck lives, and their individual stories play havoc with the emotions. But this comes nowhere near to appreciating how the victims felt.


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Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 13 Dec 18 - 10:32 AM

I think the thing is Iain - maybe you don't understand what the betrayal of trust felt like.

I came from an orange and green family. There was some sort of family bust up with the priest, and my Mum was the only kid out of four , brought up as a Protestant.

I really loved my cousin. He was about a year older than me. Though we went to different churches and different schools. We were very close.

I can remember how proud his Mum was and she gave us a photo of him wearing a sash and praying at his first communion. He became a choir boy.When he come round in his new suit. We had to sit round listening to him sing the mass in Latin, and admire him. Of course he went to the teaching brothers school. I was even went on holiday with him one year with the brothers. the teaching brothers .

His Mum was proud when he went to Catholic Grammar Scool and got his O levels , all grade one.two years early. They were SO poor, but they totally respectful of the clergy. THey lived in a house in the back streets of St Helens that had been condemned before the 1st world war.

These people were as poor as people were allowed to be in 1950's England They gave their love and respect, and they entrusted their child to the care of that church.

When thirty years later, I found out how my little cousin whom I loved, had been abused. It broke my heart that people could be so bloody rotten. Its when its under your nose that the stink appals.


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Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Dec 18 - 07:20 AM

Why not answer the points rather than throwing stones at them
The Clerics used their religious calling to rape children and the Church used its religious power to hide and continue those rapes
Your one liner- dismissals don't count as debate as far as I'm concerned
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: Iains
Date: 13 Dec 18 - 06:08 AM

"no other group has ever had the backing of a supreme being to carry out and hide at least a century of clerical abuse"

Why try to deliberately destroy an interesting and important thread by posting arrant nonsense? Are you saying God encourages child abuse? you are a fool!


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Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Dec 18 - 05:35 AM

"It is open as to whether this is deserved or not."
It most certainly is not - the world has moved on from this silly argument and the church stands on the brink of extinction due to these know cases of clerical abuse having been deliberately covered up by the hierarchy
Whataboutism doesn't wash here - no other group has ever had the backing of a supreme being to carry out and hide at least a century of clerical abuse
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: Iains
Date: 13 Dec 18 - 05:09 AM

There seems to be undercurrent in this thread of hammering the Catholic Church. It is open as to whether this is deserved or not.
Catholicism cannot claim the monopoly of clerical abuse claims.
It might be better to consider the problem in a wider context. In some countries today it is necessary to be vetted, before being allowed near children. It does not prevent abuse but it must certainly reduce it.
There is no excuse for abuse - even historical abuse where social mores may have been slightly more relaxed.
But I hear no protest about the 350,000 under age British soldiers that
served in WW1 and surely the resulting deaths and severe injuries suffered by them were a far greater abuse. Yet this historical fact is never discussed in terms of abuse, despite the fact that the government of the day relied on their numbers to delay the introduction of conscription.
Much of the abuse discussed is historical yet no mention is made of ongoing abuse today
Grooming by Asian gangs is a fact,trying to conceal by addressingit as racist abuse is a mockery of justice.
Bacha bazi, meaning 'boy play', is a tradition found across Afghanistan, where boys are trained to dance and forced to share sexual "favours".
Child soldiers in Africa are suffering abuse.
UN peacekeepers are betraying their uniforms and raison d'être by constantly hitting the headlines for child sexual abuse during their various missions. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Child_sexual_abuse_by_UN_peacekeepers
It is admirable to highlight historical abuse,but should not the emphasis be on the here and now in order to prevent further cases of abuse?


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Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Dec 18 - 03:53 AM

It is reckoned that the most common occurrences of paedophelia take place within families or known circles of friends and acquaintances.

We are discussing institutional sexual deviation here, where powerful an influential State bodies have either ignored the rape o children other than when they have been covered up to protect their position in society - a different ball-game altogether
Hopefully, as far as the church goes, that will never be allowed to happen again, but that doesn't mean there isn't a mess still to be uncovered and debts to be paid
New cases are still being found and the church is still dragging its feet over paying for their crimes - last year it was reckoned that the Irish Church still owes €1.3 billion in reparation, despite the fact that the State agreed to pay the lions share
In behaving the way they have, the church is rapidly losing all credibility and influence, as they should - probably the only positive thing to come out of this sick, sorry mess
Ironically, thanks to the Church's behaviour, Ireland now has mixed sex marriage and the same right to pregnancy termination as does the civilised world - next year (hopefully), divorce and women's position in society will be dealt with responsibly without the dead hand of the church influencing any decision
That the church threatened politicians who voted 'wrongly' over abortion with excommunication, indicates that they have learned nothing

Their behaviour as as much a betrayal of the faithful as it is a drag on modern society as a whole - it is also a gun to their own head
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 12 Dec 18 - 09:56 PM

'Does sex with children happen more often in churches or among clergy?'

Theres a tendency to look where the light is.

One of my oldest friends was in the Quaker Friends Ambulance Corps in World War 2. No longer with us. But he told me that in the arab countries where he served, many families had fairly relaxed attitude to what we would call paedophilia.

He was in this home, fairly ordinary arab family home - and old Grandad came in and started playing with the little kid's balls. It seemed to be acceptable behaviour.

I dunno - but it seems to be a strain within people.
Perhaps some of the trauma victims experience is from our unrelaxed attitude.

I've gotten old. I don't know anything about anything any more. My Dad was a cop and used to stake out the bogs in the park arresting people presumably trying to sort out some sort of sex life. I've seen changes in attitudes to sexuality so profound in my lifetime.

I can't even begin to guess what will be 'normal' in a few years time.


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Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: Joe Offer
Date: 12 Dec 18 - 03:10 PM

I can't say I know of any religions that promote pedophilia. Most Christian groups have taboos against it, and I'm sure most other religions do, also. Do taboos help? I don't know.

Some cultures have promoted the cultivation of young boys for sex - I believe it was fashionable in both Greece and Rome at times. There was a "North American Man-Boy Love Association" (NAMBLA) here in Northern California that was very self-righteous about sex with boys being a good thing for both the men and the boys.

Does sex with children happen more often in churches or among clergy? I haven't seen any data to support that, but it certainly gets a lot of press when it happens. It also happens frequently in youth choirs, scout groups, schools, and athletic teams - places where adults have the opportunity for close, trusting, long-term relationships with kids. Those same opportunities happen in church groups. But I think that most of us would say that such close, trusting, long-term relationships are good for kids - they certainly were good for me when I was growing up. The trouble is, such relationships also provide the opportunity for abuse, and we must develop ways to reduce that danger.

This is a subject that is very difficult to discuss honestly and dispassionately, because so many strong emotions are involved. The best understanding should come from studies of the victims and the perpetrators of these crimes, and neither of these are in a position to provide information freely. So, despite the eagerness of many to pontificate about the subject, I think there's a lot we just don't understand about all this.

-Joe-


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Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: Donuel
Date: 12 Dec 18 - 11:40 AM

Margaret 'Psy' Cho, a comedian, has put forth that the sentencing of child sexual abuse criminals should not be life in prison because prison sex would be a reward. Instead execution is much more fitting.

Executions should be carried out by a "bevy" of very mean women who live together long enough until there cycles match and carry out the execution a week before their cycle. Other people that need to receive a final sentence are Weinstien, Cosby, Trump and all his woman hating enablers.


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Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Dec 18 - 05:54 AM

£Utterly predictable responses"
No - just humanist
If pedophilia is "Muslim", it must also be "Catholic" and, as it has been found to have taken place in Protestant Churches - "Christian", which would be stupidly bigoted
Revelations, of late have disclosed far more Christian pedophilia than "Asian grooming" - Christian clerical abuse of children in these islands dates back at least a century - far longer and far more numerous than that practiced by Asian criminals
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: Brian May
Date: 12 Dec 18 - 05:21 AM

Utterly predictable responses


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Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Dec 18 - 02:48 AM

The ethnic origins of the'grooming gangs' is totally immaterial - they were a tiny number of criminals and, next to the number of indigenous criminals engaged in similar activities, never featured on the paeophelia scale
The press made an issue of the ones of foreign origin and ignored the home-grown ones
As it has now become apparent, there were probably more well-known celebrities, members of Parliament and leading businessmen involved in far more series activities, including torture and murder, many who escaped justice because of who and what they were.
It was racist to have concentrated on the cultural origins of these few criminals

NEW SCANDAL TO HIT THE IRISH FAN
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 Dec 18 - 08:11 PM

The so-called grooming gangs didn't come from Asia. Thus your racism.

And the vast majority of those men of God don't abuse children. A few of them do, and their institution has been stupid enough to cover for them and put its own reputation above the well-being of those young people. That's how it is. I was born and raised a Catholic, educated for thirteen years in Catholic schools, including seven in a secondary school run by the Salesian Fathers, and taught in a Catholic school run by priests, nuns and brothers for seven years. I didn't see or hear of a single case of sexual abuse of a child, and I assure you that I'm a staunch and vigilant defender of young people, as Joe will tell you in a different context, to do with Catholic education, in which he thinks I'm wrong-headed. The abuses are and were horrendous and the Church dealt with the issue wrong-headedly. But hundreds of millions of Catholics, including thousands of priests, are simply no better or worse than anyone else. I'm an ex-Catholic and a Dawkinsian atheist and would never defend religion, but if you are inclined to be grossly unfair to the vast majority of Catholics without qualification then you are an abuser yourself.


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Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: Brian May
Date: 10 Dec 18 - 05:49 PM

Very interesting to see the response to this thread on the disgusting abuse of children by 'men of God'.

A few years back, when I pointed out the increasing disclosures of Asian grooming gangs abusing young (mainly) white girls, I was informed by the worthies here that I was just a racist bigot.

In fact many of you were quite aggressive about it.

How do you feel now? It's interesting how great swathes of the population turn on the messenger and plumb the depths of denial rather than face the issue.

Since my last post on the subject, when I promised this disgusting phenomenon was not going to go away, there have been countless repeats.

Just Google 'Asian Grooming Gangs'. Is every response penned by a racist bigot, or is it a simple truth?

So for all the (justified) disgust regarding the church behaviour and covers up by the senior clergy, why not spare a thought for the thousands of kids abused in our own back yard.

And for those who abused me for pointing it out, may your karma be merciful . . .


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Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 09 Dec 18 - 01:13 PM

More revelations...!


https://soundcloud.com/denise_whittle/the-day-delaneys-donkey-had


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Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 09 Dec 18 - 02:56 AM

Terribly sad business. I've known some wonderful Roman Catholic people. As Jim says, those people deserve so much better.

Clinging to mysteries in the name of obedience and mysticism is just so not playing the game.

I think its got to the point where basic human decency and humanity should be within the compass of every right thinking person - no exceptions - Popes, Imams....everyone.


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Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 08 Dec 18 - 08:11 PM

Don't let him personalise this, Joe. He's clearly a chap with an agenda.


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Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: Joe Offer
Date: 08 Dec 18 - 07:57 PM

Well, one would expect ollaimh to be confused. Probably never had a rational thought in his body.

I've known hundreds of priests in my lifetime, and a few of them were accused of molesting children - maybe as many as 20. I knew nothing about any sexual misconduct of any priest, until the accusations were published in the newspaper.

Child sexual abuse is a very difficult crime to detect. It is a crime committed in utmost secrecy. And those secrets are kept for decades, sometimes forever.

-Joe-


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Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 08 Dec 18 - 07:38 PM

Out of order.


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Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: ollaimh
Date: 08 Dec 18 - 07:34 PM

and i have to say that people like joe offer are the real problem. he says we worked with pedophile priests for , was it forty years?< and didn't warn parents who they were? if you knew you have a positive ethical obligation to publicly identify these dangers to children. and there need to be felony child endangerment laws to put peope who fail to warn in jail for significant terms. that is what it will take to stop it.

all the hand wringing , talk about helping the pedohiles and rationalizations have achieved northing. we need to jail these enablers first and foremost to make it stop.

i would be a great idea to end tax exempt status for churches like the catholic church that so egregiously failed to protect children, especially the racist genocide they perpetrated on native children. these churches are the embodiment of true evil in the world


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Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Dec 18 - 04:39 AM

The latest examples of te Pope describing homosexuality as "a trend" seems to indicate that the church has learned nothing and probably never will
Saves the expense of employing a gravedigger as they seem quite happy to dig their own
Ireland faces another holy war in the coming few months as a date has now been decided on a referendum on Divorcee, almost certain to be followed by one to remove the constitutional clause which says "a woman's place in in the home"
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 05 Dec 18 - 03:13 AM

And Joe has called ME an absolutist! :-)


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Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: ollaimh
Date: 05 Dec 18 - 01:31 AM

these evil christians make scientology look good


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Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: ollaimh
Date: 05 Dec 18 - 01:29 AM

joe still has his head in the sand. these are the worse possible abusers and very little has been done, especially in native schools in the usa where it is still the practice to destroy the records of the victims of crime, and then say well they were never here, even thought they have dozens or more witnesses to their attendance. pure racism, from a church that has done deals with racists from day one.

it would be nice to kick them out of north america.

the destruction of lives they have wreaked on a mass scale is despicable. their apologists wring their hand here and whine we did all we could. all you could do was so inadequate as to be a criminal conspiracy to aid and abbet widespread major criminal activity.

it just shows that the gnostic dualists were right. christians are worshiping a devil and calling it god


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Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: keberoxu
Date: 03 Dec 18 - 01:13 PM

Here is another feature story about the applications of civil RICO to the Church.

This story is a few months old, and I missed it at the time.
Today, I find this report riveting.


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Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: keberoxu
Date: 30 Nov 18 - 01:58 PM

Former U.S. Prosecutor David Hickton in a recent interview.


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Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: Donuel
Date: 29 Nov 18 - 09:04 PM

mg You mentioned remarks of "I never knew." are unbelievable.
These kind of lies are most likely from people who did know but did not commit a heinous act. This helps the liar deal with the ethical dilemma of being a kind of witness but choosing to protect the institution over the victims which is a sin in my book.


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Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: keberoxu
Date: 29 Nov 18 - 11:07 AM

Two things strike me about the article I just read.

First, it's front-page news in USA Today which has a wide and diverse population of readers.

Second, David Hickton, profiled in the article, started out his life as a Catholic school student who somehow escaped being assaulted and abused, but was surrounded by teammates, literally, who became victims -- and Hickton ended up working as a U. S. Attorney prosecutor.

Catholic prosecutor took on his own church


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Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 Nov 18 - 05:49 PM

I think that it's very important to confront honestly all the allegations against clerics in the Church. I haven't got a lot of time for any organised religion, but I know that there are thousands of priests, bishops and nuns, as well as devout Catholic laypersons, who must feel devastated by all this. What a shame that the Church has effectively institutionalised the issue by denial, reluctance to act and covering up. The institution has let Catholicism down big time. What the Church does now is key to the future. We need to see honesty, openness, quick action and contrition. I'm a cradle Catholic, well-lapsed of course, and I've been educated and been an educator for decades in Catholic schools, working with many priests, brothers and nuns. I saw no sex abuse and I can tell you (having worked for a long time in non-Catholic sectors as well) that all those people seemed no better or worse than anyone else. If the issue is not confronted there'll be a gathering storm, even worse than now. In the British Labour Party there were accusations of institutional antisemitism. Almost all Labour members were devastated by the accusations. The party acted quickly and openly and held an enquiry that was very public. The storm has been somewhat staunched, though not completely killed off. That's how it goes. There will always be people out to get you, no matter how hard you try to right the wrongs. The Church has got to do the right thing, quickly and fully in the public eye.


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Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: Joe Offer
Date: 12 Nov 18 - 04:34 PM

This article quotes the head of SNAP (Survivors Network of those Abused by Priests) as saying nearly one-third of U.S. bishops have been accused of mishandling claims of sexual abuse. I'm guessing that many of those accusations involve bungled situations and not intentional misconduct, so I'm sticking with my ten percent figure for now.

At least in my seminary in the 1960s, we got no training on how to handle complaints of child sexual abuse - that training is now given to all employees and volunteers who work in my diocese. Handling such complaints is not as straightforward as it seems, because the natural inclination is not to believe accusations of sexual misconduct against young priests who seem so nice. Employees and volunteers are now instucted to report all such questions to both law enforcement and church management, and leave the sorting to professionals.

At their meeting this month, the U.S. bishops were set to vote on proposals for dealing with misconduct by bishops. At the last minute, they received a Vatican to postpone that vote until after the international meeting on the subject that will take place early next year. I suppose that makes sense, but such delays are frustrating and disappointing.

-Joe-


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Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: Thompson
Date: 06 Nov 18 - 05:58 PM

What astonishes me is how this happened. 1800 years or so of - mostly - civil behaviour by priests (from which I except Thomas à Becket, whose row with the king was over whether the state or the church should try an abusive priest who killed his victim's father when he objected to his "seduction of his daughter). Anyway, apart from Tom, mostly decent priests and nuns dedicated to service and goodness.

Then… what? Power, I suppose: power over whole societies which didn't dare resist them; the power to imprison women and sell children, and have no one say them nay, under the pretence of "saving" them.


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Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: mg
Date: 06 Nov 18 - 04:05 PM

Recent boston globe article says 30% of living bishops. Even that sounds low. Do we know how many actually reported offensives, say since 2002 or so when at the very least they should have seen the writing on the wall. I think many were trying to protect church assets, and I don't blame them, but some were totally willing (aka pell and others) to be totally cruel to victims..oh dear..so was the pope in chili. I am thinking a bishop in us who reported anything to anybody would be an absolute outlier but I could be wrong. And those international bishops who declared at a synod this just was not a problem in their dioceses are beyond belief.


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Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: mg
Date: 05 Nov 18 - 12:15 PM

I don't think it was not even 10%. Something I read recently said it was now with existing Bishops somewhere between 30 to 50% and and in previous years it seems like almost all of them. I think we need to know what the truth is and if there are Scholars here who have access to this information if we could get a somewhat accurate estimate and that would be good. I think there's no way in hell it's 10%


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Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: Joe Offer
Date: 03 Nov 18 - 04:06 PM

I've been awake for a long time, ollaimh. When I was in the seminary in the 1960s, the Catholic Archdiocese of Milwaukee put us through an extensive [and intrusive and embarrassing] battery of psychological testing and psychiatrist interviews, in an attempt to weed out seminarians who should not be ordained priests because they might be likely to commit sex crimes. Other dioceses were doing similar screening. They believed this would solve the problem.

In the 1970s, Catholic dioceses in the United States built expensive, state-of-the art treatment centers for priests who had problems with addictions and sexual misconduct. They believed this would certainly solve the problem, and they felt safe about reassigning priests to new parishes. That backfired.

At least since the 1980s, my current home diocese of Sacramento has had a standard, immediate response to allegations of sexual misconduct by priests:
  • Report the offending police for criminal investigation
  • Offer counseling to victims
  • Offer no-questions-asked, immediate settlements to victims - $25,000 for lesser offenses, and $40,000 for major offenses like child molestation.
Not every diocese followed this common-sense practice, but many did. It didn't completely solve the problem, but it helped. Since 1986, U.S. insurance companies have refused to insure Catholic dioceses against sexual misconduct by priests, so the dioceses have paid claims out of their own funds. Earlier claims were paid by insurance.

There were some bishops who covered up offenses (some out of fear and some out of malice), but certainly not even ten percent. But if one diocese had a practice of covering up offenses, that could quickly add up to a large number of offending priests and an even larger number of victims. And since bishops get moved around, more dioceses could be affected than there were offending bishops. It didn't seem to matter whether the bishops were liberal or conservative - some of each covered up these crimes, and thus were guilty of crimes themselves.

And of course, many of the crimes were covered up by ecclesiastical functionaries without the bishop knowing. And many crimes were committed that were not covered up. And many other crimes were committed that the victims did not report.

The result was a relatively large number of crimes and victims and a relatively small number of people committing the crimes. There were crimes in every diocese in the United States, and most probably in every diocese in the world. But most bishops did not cover up the crimes, and most Catholics were only slightly aware the crimes were happening.

But yes, I was aware such crimes were happening as far back as the 1960s, and I'm sure almost all priests and bishops were also aware. But I was also aware that even back in the 1960s, Catholic dioceses were doing a lot to prevent and control and respond to crimes of the sexual abuse of children. Those measures failed to prevent all these crimes, and that is a shame and a scandal. Those who committed the sex crimes and the coverups must be investigated, prosecuted, and punished; and the victims must be compensated. We Catholics want this matter to be resolved, settled, and ended. It's our children who were the victims.

-Joe Offer-


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Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 Nov 18 - 03:01 PM

Unfair.


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Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: ollaimh
Date: 03 Nov 18 - 02:01 PM

joe, wake up--from the beginning catholic authorities have done everything they can to kept their criminal activities secret and to protect criminals. they have a long term committment to protecting the most evil people possible and all their adherants are culpibable. it is the worst of the many demoniac christian religions. and you can tell their evil by their willingness to also protect nazis


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Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: ollaimh
Date: 10 Sep 18 - 08:15 PM

abd they need to lat charges or felony child endangerment against all those who knew and did not warn parents at every level. every one who helped treat and didn't warn parents, every one who transfered them and didn't warn, every one who covered up and didn't warm

as for the torturers in the residential school canada just had a royal commission , easily accessed. in the usa the genocide against natives is active with the private army of erik prince going to war against the sacred stone camp opposing the use of native land for the dalp, and of course the american residential schools are still destroying records to cover up their torture illegal medical experiements and rape.   native is the usa still don't have fair access to justice in the courts. ward churchill won a million dollars for wrongfull dismissal at a colorado university and the judgement was set aside by a racist appeal court, and the realy big one is the suit for the blck hills was recognized as valid by the us supreme court but they said they can't have their land, they have to take money. the sioux have so far refused the money and want their land. but treateis signed with the usa are worthless. they void them any time they feel like it. the usa is a genocidal racist state world wide and right at home, while the holy joe's come up with hand wringing and excuses and defend nazis


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Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: Thompson
Date: 09 Sep 18 - 09:42 AM

Popes and bishops deliberately covered up the crimes, and still refer to "sin" and "mistakes" and the like. Here's a graph of how sexual abuser clerics were moved from one place to another (to where they found new victims) in Ireland alone.

It is not alone the rapes and sexual assaults and bullying that were the crime. It is the fact that an organisation conspired to hide these crimes, and to shelter the criminals, while terrifying the victims into silence. The Catholic Church in Ireland (and in many places) is a criminal organisation, whose influence has been malign.


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Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: Joe Offer
Date: 09 Sep 18 - 02:25 AM

This is from a Boston Globe article dated September 2, 2018:

    Time’s up for Pope Francis and the leaders of the Catholic Church.

    Catholics everywhere — and anyone who cares about children — should demand that our criminal justice system start treating the Roman Catholic Church for what many victims believe it is: an international criminal conspiracy to cover up the rape of what in the United States alone might amount to 100,000 children.
    Every attorney general in the country should use their subpoena powers to force the church hierarchy to give up their long-held secrets of clerical crimes. Every state legislature should eliminate the statute of limitations on sexual crimes against children. In every state, clergy should be mandated reporters of alleged sexual abuse....


I think that makes sense. Popes and bishops aren't trained to deal with crime. From the very beginning, this should have been handled by law enforcement and child protection professionals.

-Joe-


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Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: ollaimh
Date: 08 Sep 18 - 08:22 PM

canadian criminal convictions are public record as are the charges agaisnt msgr william lynn. the canadian torturers who were convicted became a cause celebre for the tories. steven harper appealed all the way to the supreme court of canada to try and have their criminal records sealed, against all canadian law. why? because they were good christians and the victims were native. one of harpers dead osing appeals over his views, wasting around fourty million dollars in leagl fees on each such appeal.

in the one over the james bay catholc torturers he showed true pernicious racism which is usually done by dog whistle, but here it was right out in the open. a different law for natives than christians.

so you can hardly miss these convictions if you look for news articel. they are not obscure.

that is the kind of filth these holy joes are enabling and defending.


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Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: Rapparee
Date: 06 Sep 18 - 10:23 PM

O, do you have citations for those charges? I'd really like to know; I'm not trying to start something.


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Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: ollaimh
Date: 06 Sep 18 - 04:22 AM

and of course remember that most of the criminal convictions in canada for torture, are for catholic priests and their employees for their racist torture, illegal medicval experiments and sexual abuse of the native children for whom they took moral and physical responsibility. this isn't the only evil church but arguably the worst.

these scandals were openly admitted to by the canadian anglican chursh in their quarterly in 1996. catholics have yet to apologize or make sufficeint restitution.

moreover, i advocate strict criminal penalities for not just abuse but for felong child enadnagerment if one does not warn parents of the presence of pedophiles in the employ of the church in their area. as msgr william lynn was convicted(on appeal at last reading)

jim carrol this isn't mob.(an incedibly stupid assertion) it's criminal law . a pilar of ethical society, unlike christianity which is a pilar of evil.

the catholic church has avoided paying damages where ever they can joe. in my area they want to local church members in the acadien pennisula and capre breton to raise the funds to pay law suits rather than the church. more oever in the usa multiple diosesses have stashed their cash in corporate entities such as grave yard maintaince funds. the chicago group has millions stashed thus. enough to cover grave yeard maintaince for the whole country!!! they are doing what ever they can to avoid responsibility. california has stricter laws forcing payment of damages for serious torts. they are only doing t he minimum undet the law. their standard remains thatof --if you can't throw us in jail or prove it in court we have no ethical responsiblites.

the american native residential schools have been caught destroying records of childern who were suing, to avoid payments. so as natives have less access to lawyers few get compensation for rape abuse and illegal medical experiments.

and it is no accident that this chuch made the deal with the nazis, to get control over german education, in return for the catholic centre party supporting hitler's legislating dictatorial powers and made the latern accord with mussolini. crimes for which they will never be forgiven if there is a god. so is it all about nazis? is sure is for the catholic church, not me.


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Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 01 Sep 18 - 06:28 AM

That is an utterly contemptible post, Donuel, and it would be beneath my dignity to respond to its substance. You are completely off-topic. Shame on you for persisting. Drop it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: Rapparee
Date: 31 Aug 18 - 10:05 PM

The Catholic Church, like all of the churches, can only be redeemed by the laity. The clergy have failed, failed for centuries. And whether the clergy like it or not, the laity -- the people -- are the church.


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Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: Donuel
Date: 31 Aug 18 - 09:54 PM

Senofou, My point is that Steve's brand of atheism is on the harsh side, nothing to do with Nuns who I personally found to be a delight to work with.
Examples supporting my opinion are in this thread and extend back for years. He is a very simple man with very simple ideas about atheism that borders on vengeance toward religion. I am glad he feels free enough to express these feelings but there is room for refinement in his heart. Mankind has had to make the best of a bad situation and I am afraid our species is still rather primitive as evidenced by cult leaders like Trump.


btw Steve you say never compare anyone to Hitler but you are wrong.
The more parallels, common language and divisive hatreds there are, the more something should be said.


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Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 30 Aug 18 - 05:14 AM

And as for Hasidic Jews, with their Tel Aviv side locks - randy rabbis and all!!!


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Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: mg
Date: 29 Aug 18 - 05:53 PM

Just when you think they can not get any stupider read what cardinal from new zealand said on abuse tracker...basically they are just discovering people want concrete action and now tnat they understand that by golly, things are going to change.


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