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BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations

Joe Offer 22 Feb 19 - 04:51 PM
Jack Campin 22 Feb 19 - 09:20 AM
Jim Carroll 22 Feb 19 - 08:18 AM
Donuel 22 Feb 19 - 07:27 AM
Thompson 22 Feb 19 - 12:52 AM
Rapparee 21 Feb 19 - 11:11 PM
Donuel 21 Feb 19 - 06:51 PM
Jack Campin 21 Feb 19 - 05:33 PM
mg 21 Feb 19 - 02:58 PM
Donuel 21 Feb 19 - 08:42 AM
Rapparee 18 Feb 19 - 08:56 PM
Donuel 18 Feb 19 - 05:13 PM
Rapparee 17 Feb 19 - 09:34 AM
Steve Shaw 17 Feb 19 - 09:29 AM
Jim Carroll 17 Feb 19 - 05:56 AM
Rapparee 16 Feb 19 - 10:39 PM
Rapparee 14 Feb 19 - 05:14 PM
Joe Offer 14 Feb 19 - 03:45 PM
ollaimh 14 Feb 19 - 03:33 PM
ollaimh 14 Feb 19 - 03:31 PM
Jim Carroll 12 Feb 19 - 01:46 PM
Donuel 12 Feb 19 - 01:16 PM
John P 12 Feb 19 - 12:06 PM
Dave the Gnome 11 Feb 19 - 08:23 AM
Jim Carroll 11 Feb 19 - 05:17 AM
Joe Offer 11 Feb 19 - 04:09 AM
Joe Offer 11 Feb 19 - 04:02 AM
Mossback 10 Feb 19 - 06:34 PM
Mossback 10 Feb 19 - 06:27 PM
Rapparee 10 Feb 19 - 03:00 PM
ollaimh 10 Feb 19 - 02:47 PM
Donuel 10 Feb 19 - 09:29 AM
Joe Offer 10 Feb 19 - 12:22 AM
Steve Shaw 09 Feb 19 - 07:50 PM
Joe Offer 09 Feb 19 - 06:12 PM
John P 09 Feb 19 - 04:52 PM
John P 09 Feb 19 - 04:45 PM
Jon Freeman 09 Feb 19 - 01:23 PM
Jim Carroll 09 Feb 19 - 01:02 PM
Thompson 09 Feb 19 - 12:40 PM
Raggytash 09 Feb 19 - 12:18 PM
Jim Carroll 09 Feb 19 - 12:17 PM
Joe Offer 09 Feb 19 - 11:58 AM
Raggytash 09 Feb 19 - 11:47 AM
Jim Carroll 09 Feb 19 - 11:33 AM
Joe Offer 09 Feb 19 - 10:47 AM
Jim Carroll 09 Feb 19 - 06:44 AM
Joe Offer 08 Feb 19 - 09:09 PM
Donuel 08 Feb 19 - 07:44 PM
Mrrzy 08 Feb 19 - 11:55 AM

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Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: Joe Offer
Date: 22 Feb 19 - 04:51 PM

I get regular emails from a Catholic reform group called Call to Action. This morning's email gave a pretty good summary:
    As the Vatican continues its four-day bishops' summit on dealing with sex abuse by priests, this stunning roundup by AP Vatican correspondent Nicole Winfield shows starkly that this is "a global problem that requires a global response":
    • Argentina: Pope Francis' home country is beginning to see an eruption of the scandal, with some cases even implicating failures by the pontiff himself.
    • Australia: A four-year national investigation found 4,444 people were abused at more than 1,000 Catholic institutions between 1980 and 2015. 7% of Catholic priests in Australia in 1950-2010 were accused of sexually abusing children.
    • Chile: Chilean criminal prosecutors have staged a series of raids on the church's secret archives to seize documents. They have opened more than 100 investigations into abusive priests.
    • Germany: The German Catholic Church concluded at least 3,677 people were abused by clergy between 1946 and 2014. More than half the victims were 13 or younger and most were boys. Every sixth case involved rape and at least 1,670 clergy were involved. 969 abuse victims were altar boys.
    • Ireland: Tens of thousands of children suffered wide-ranging abuses in church-run workhouse-style institutions.
    • U.S.: About 70 dioceses and religious orders have released lists of accused priests, according to BishopAccountability.org. Pennsylvania alone found 300 priests sexually abused at least 1,000 children since the 1940s. Prosecutors in more than a dozen states have opened similar investigations.


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Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: Jack Campin
Date: 22 Feb 19 - 09:20 AM

I have no doubt that similar networks will be revealed in Protestant churches, in Buddhist and Hindu monasteries, in Moslem schools, as time goes on.

Catholicism is unique in having such a deep hierarchy - Muslim, Jewish and Buddhist education are locally organized, and most Protestant groups don't have many places they could transfer embarrassing employees to. There have been abuse scandals in the Haredi Jewish sect in London and to a lesser extent in Sunni Muslim medreses, but systematic coverups are harder to pull off. My yoga teacher as a kid (who was also a Protestant Sunday School teacher and a scoutmaster) ended up getting a jail sentence for a minor sexual offence, but he had no network behind him - and we kids all knew what he was up to, it was no surprise when he got done.

Hinduism has a gruesome record of child abuse in India. Buddhism rarely involves children in the West - there have been cases of sexually coercive sleaziness on the part of some leaders towards their adult followers, though.


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Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Feb 19 - 08:18 AM

WHOLE AREAS YET TO BE EXPLORED
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: Donuel
Date: 22 Feb 19 - 07:27 AM

fortunately you guys win that argument.


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Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: Thompson
Date: 22 Feb 19 - 12:52 AM

The idea of castration as a solution to rape assumes that rape is caused by uncontrollable sexual desire. It’s not. Rape is caused by uncontrolled power.

There is a whole network of enablement in the church rapes: the priests’ bosses, who transferred them and concealed their crimes, the hierarchy going right up to the Vatican who colluded in protecting the reputation of the Church by allowing violent, dangerous people free reign to rape (and I have no doubt sometimes kill) children, and the laity who were too deliberately blind or too frightened to even attempt to expose the rapes. Not to mention the Gardaí, who sent away the few who brought complaints with a flea in their ear.

I have no doubt that similar networks will be revealed in Protestant churches, in Buddhist and Hindu monasteries, in Moslem schools, as time goes on.


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Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: Rapparee
Date: 21 Feb 19 - 11:11 PM

Sure, sure.

From Findlaw: Critics also question the effectiveness of surgical or chemical castration on sex offenders. Those subjected to castration may retain some sexual function. Even surgically castrated offenders have a small rate of recidivism. Furthermore, testosterone boosting drugs are available that can counteract the effects of castration.


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Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: Donuel
Date: 21 Feb 19 - 06:51 PM

please rise for the Honorable Judge Swift Justice
Has the jury reached a unanimous verdict? Yes your honor. What is the verdict? In the count of child sexual abuse we find the Bishop guilty. The sentence is eunufiction. Bailiff, chop off his testicles! The bailiff presents 4 handcuffs a long cord and a huge cleaver. Those who do not want to witness the sentence may now exit the courtroom.
zip swoosh click click click click ow ow ow
WHACK
Let the punishment fit the crime and be a warning to others. This case is now closed.

Next case. There are no next cases.
GREAT


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Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: Jack Campin
Date: 21 Feb 19 - 05:33 PM

And it's Poland's turn:

Gdansk bishop's statue pulled down


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Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: mg
Date: 21 Feb 19 - 02:58 PM

It is super important for anyone with an interest in the catholic situation to read abuse tracker daily..especially now with the bishops meeting with the pope over this issue. More and more stuff pouring out, and I expect huge numbers of victims to come forward from developing countries. The pope starts out by saying people who constantly criticize the church are friends with the devil. Good job pope. On this issue the pope is worse than worthless..he is damaging and obstructionist. I will continue to constantly criticize..just found my baptismal certificate..signed by a notorious abuser...and I do not consider myself a friend of the devil.


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Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: Donuel
Date: 21 Feb 19 - 08:42 AM

Its Draconian for a state to perform castration but I don't see what you see. It is up to the courts to determine cruel and unusual punishment. It is less cruel than execution.

Marduk (8th century BC): Assyrian chief eunuch, eponym of the year 798 BCE in an Assyrian eponym chronicle.[233]
Yariri (8th century BC): regent of Neo-Hittite Carchemish thought to likely be an eunuch.[24]
Aspamistres or Mithridates (5th century BCE): bodyguard of Xerxes I of Persia, and (with Artabanus) his murderer.
Artoxares: an envoy of Artaxerxes I and Darius II of Persia.
Bagoas (4th century BC): prime minister of king Artaxerxes III of Persia, and his assassin. (Bagoas is an old Persian word meaning eunuch.)
Bagoas (4th century BCE): a favorite of Alexander the Great. Influential in changing Alexander's attitude toward Persians and therefore in the king's policy decision to try to integrate the conquered peoples fully into his Empire as loyal subjects. He thereby paved the way for the relative success of Alexander's Seleucid successors and greatly enhanced the diffusion of Greek culture to the East.
Philetaerus (4th/3rd century BC): founder of the Attalid dynasty of Pergamum
Sima Qian (old romanization Ssu-ma Chi'en; 2nd/1st century BC): the first person to have practiced modern historiography – gathering and analyzing both primary and secondary sources in order to write his monumental history of the Chinese Empire.
Ganymedes (1st century BCE): highly capable adviser and general of Cleopatra VII's sister and rival, Princess Arsinoe. Unsuccessfully attacked Julius Caesar three times at Alexandria.
Pothinus (1st century BC): regent for pharaoh Ptolemy XII.
Sporus (1st century BC): an attractive Roman boy who was castrated by, and later married to, Emperor Nero
First millennium AD:

Unidentified eunuch of the Ethiopian court (1st century AD), described in The Acts of the Apostles (chapter 8). Philip the Evangelist, one of the original seven deacons, is directed by the Holy Spirit to catch up to the eunuch's chariot and hears him reading from the Book of Isaiah (chapter 53). Philip explained that the section prophesies Jesus' crucifixion, which Philip described to the eunuch. The eunuch was baptized shortly thereafter.
Cai Lun (old romanization Ts'ai Lun; 1st/2nd century AD): reasonable evidence exists to suggest that he was truly the inventor of paper. At the very least, he established the importance of paper and standardized its manufacture in the Chinese Empire.
Origen: early Christian theologian, allegedly castrated himself based on his reading of the Gospel of Matthew 19:12 (For there are eunuchs, who were born so from their mother's womb: and there are eunuchs, who were made so by men: and there are eunuchs, who have made themselves eunuchs for the kingdom of heaven. He that can take, let him take it.). Despite the fact that the early Christian theologian Tertullian wrote that Jesus was a eunuch, there is no corroboration in any other early source. (The Skoptsy did, however, believe it to be true.)[citation needed]
Eutropius (5th century): only eunuch known to have attained the highly distinguished and very influential position of Roman Consul.
Chrysaphius: chief minister of Eastern Roman Emperor Theodosius II, architect of imperial policy towards the Huns.
Narses (478–573): general of Byzantine emperor Justinian I, responsible for destroying the Ostrogoths in 552 at the Battle of Taginae in Italy and saving Rome for the empire.
Solomon: general and governor of Africa under Justinian I
Staurakios: chief associate and minister of the Byzantine empress Irene of Athens
Ignatius of Constantinople (799–877): twice Patriarch of Constantinople during troubled political times [847–858 and 867–877]. First absolutely unquestioned eunuch saint, recognized by both the Orthodox and Roman Churches. (There are a great many early saints who were probably eunuchs, though few either as influential nor unquestioned as to their castration.)
Yazaman al-Khadim (died 891): Emir of Tarsus and successful commander in the wars against Byzantium
Mu'nis al-Khadim (845/846–933/934): Commander-in-chief of the Abbasid armies between 908 and his death,
Joseph Bringas: chief minister of the Byzantine Empire under Romanos II (959-963).
Second millennium AD:

Jia Xian (c. 1010- c. 1070): Chinese mathematician, Invented the Jia Xian triangle for the calculation of square roots and cube roots.
Ly Thuong Kiet (1019–1105): general during the Lý Dynasty in Vietnam. Penned what is considered the first Vietnamese declaration of independence. Regarded as a Vietnamese national hero.
Pierre Abélard (1079–1142): French scholastic philosopher and theologian. Forcibly castrated by his girlfriend's uncle while in bed.
Malik Kafur (fl. 1296–1316): a eunuch slave who became a general in the army of Alauddin Khalji, ruler of the Delhi sultanate.
Zheng He (1371–1433): famous admiral who led huge Chinese fleets of exploration around the Indian Ocean.
Judar Pasha (late 16th century): a Spanish eunuch who became the head of the Moroccan invasion force into the Songhai Empire.
Kim Cheo Seon: one of the most famous eunuchs in Korean Joseon Dynasty, ably served kings in the Joseon dynasty. His life is now the subject of a historical drama in South Korea.
Mohammad Khan Qajar: chief of the Qajar tribe. He became the King/Shah of Persia in 1794 and established the Qajar dynasty.
Zhao Gao: favourite of Qin Shihuangdi, who plotted against Li Si (died 210 BC)
Zhang Rang: head of the infamous "10 Changshi" (Ten attendants) of Eastern Han Dynasty
Huang Hao: eunuch in the state of Shu; also appears in the Romance of the Three Kingdoms
Cen Hun: eunuch in the state of Wu during the Three Kingdoms Period
Gao Lishi: a loyal and trusted friend of Tang emperor Xuanzong
Le Van Duyet: famous 18th-century Vietnamese eunuch, military strategist and government official (not a true eunuch, he was born a hermaphrodite)
Senesino (1686–1758): Italian contralto castrato singer.
Farinelli (1705–1782): Italian soprano castrato singer.
Giusto Fernando Tenducci (c. 1736–1790): Italian soprano castrato singer.
Li Fuguo: The Tang eunuch who began another era of eunuch rule
Yu Chao'en: Tang eunuch who began his "career" as army supervisor
Wang Zhen: first Ming eunuch with much power, see Tumu Crisis
Gang Bing: patron saint of eunuchs in China who castrated himself to demonstrate his loyalty to the Yongle Emperor
Yishiha: admiral in charge of expeditions down the Amur River under the Yongle and Xuande Emperors
Liu Jin: a well-known eunuch despot, member of the Eight Tigers
Wei Zhongxian: most infamous eunuch in Chinese history
Wu Rui: a Chinese eunuch in Lê Dynasty Annam (Vietnam)
Li Lianying: a despotic eunuch of the Qing Dynasty
Thomas P. Corbett/Boston Corbett (1832 – presumed dead 1894): who killed John Wilkes Booth, the assassin of Abraham Lincoln, castrated himself to avoid temptation from prostitutes
Alessandro Moreschi (1858–1922), Italian castrato singer, the only one to make recordings.
Sun Yaoting (1902–1996): last surviving imperial eunuch of Chinese history


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Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: Rapparee
Date: 18 Feb 19 - 08:56 PM

Um, if you study the history of eunuchs in every nation closely you will find that it is not much of a solution.


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Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: Donuel
Date: 18 Feb 19 - 05:13 PM

Eunuchs are a perfectly good solution to certain social problems. Ask the Chinese.


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Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: Rapparee
Date: 17 Feb 19 - 09:34 AM

I guess "defrocked" sounded too much like bullies pulling someone's pants down in the schoolyard.


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Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Feb 19 - 09:29 AM

"laicized"

Whilst conceding that levity has no place in this thread, I should just like to thank you for the opportunity of adding this word to my lexicon!


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Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Feb 19 - 05:56 AM

An article in this mornings Times by an abuse victim is headlined: "Who Knew About the Abuse" - They All Did"
That is the most condemning statement yet and if it is true, the implications are unimaginable
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: Rapparee
Date: 16 Feb 19 - 10:39 PM

It's Mr. McCarrick now -- he was laicized today.


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Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: Rapparee
Date: 14 Feb 19 - 05:14 PM

Joe, a diocesan priest can be excardinated to serve in another diocese or even in another country. While far from common it is not unheard of. It seems to occur more frequently with member of religious orders than diocesan priests.

But extend the discussion to include the abuse of adults, male and female. Include those who are vulnerable, including the sick and handicapped.

I am coming to the conclusion that sexual abuse, whether by clerics, teachers, coaches, scout leaders, or anyone is caused not by a sex drive, but by a lust for and abuse of power, just a rape is.


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Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: Joe Offer
Date: 14 Feb 19 - 03:45 PM

Most parish priests are diocesan priests, who serve their entire careers in one particular geographic diocese. They are rarely transferred to other dioceses, so they are unlikely to transfer across state lines. Religious order priests belong to provinces, which can cover several states or an entire nation, so they can be transferred anywhere within the province.

So, for diocesan priests, the "employer" is the bishop of that particular diocese. For religious orders, the "employer" is the provincial (leader) of that particular province.

-Joe-


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Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: ollaimh
Date: 14 Feb 19 - 03:33 PM

john p makes an excellent point. not only have the kept transfering sex offender priests they have transfered money around to avoid properly attained legal judgements against them for damages. it is a crime syndicate. this now requires a rico prosecution .


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Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: ollaimh
Date: 14 Feb 19 - 03:31 PM

yeah when our christian friends are raping children(and nuns) they have something wrong with them. they believe the devil is god, and follow all the evil ideas from their imaginary friend. know them y the fruit they bear


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Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Feb 19 - 01:46 PM

It seems from a report i The Irish Times this moorning that clerical abuse by TEXAN BAPTISTS is now becoming a major issue
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: Donuel
Date: 12 Feb 19 - 01:16 PM

Contrition is a rare but not unheard of historic event. I use Nazi war fugitives as an example.

Self imposed contrition belongs in the same world as; self incarceration, self punishment, self execution, self imposed restitution and confession.


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Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: John P
Date: 12 Feb 19 - 12:06 PM

Joe, the reason I thought the Federal government should be involved is because the Catholic Church transferred rapists to other states in order to avoid prosecution. They have been running an interstate crime ring.

What I would like to see is a civil suite against the church and all of it's subsidiaries for more money than the church has. Take every penny, every building, every business, everything. And put everyone who knew anything about the rapes in prison.


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Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 11 Feb 19 - 08:23 AM

Makes a tragedy of the 'joke' my old boss used to tell.


What pleasure does a monk get?

Nun!


Pre PC days of course and in the early 70's I found it funny. It now seems pretty sick :-(


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Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Feb 19 - 05:17 AM

This morning's Irish Times reports that the sexual abuse of nuns was first brought to the attention of The Vatican in 1992, nothing was done and the report was shelved
The excuse now being given is that it was thought to be "only happening in Third World Countries" - it cites Arica (bad enough), but it transpires that Italy was mentioned as one of the problem countries
One wonders where this will go now
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: Joe Offer
Date: 11 Feb 19 - 04:09 AM

....and, as always, I continue to be mystified by Donuel. Don, what's 12 May about?


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Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: Joe Offer
Date: 11 Feb 19 - 04:02 AM

But then, I think Jerry Rasmussen will tell you how wonderful the American Baptists have been for him, so it's hard to tie down who's who. Jimmy Carter has been a Southern Baptist, but he has been strongly critical of them - as I am strongly critical about many things in my Catholic Church.

Most Sundays, I have a wonderful time, but sometimes I get pissed off. Friday, I had a great time playing Scrabble with a wonderful nun, and Saturday I got pissed off at a nun who was as inconsiderate as she usually is. And Sunday, the choir director was bitchy but nice later, and I had a great time hanging out with a bunch od old people and working with some young people, and the priest who is usually a pain in the ass wasn't so bad this time. Sounds like real life, doesn't it?

This whole sex abuse issue has never been easy for me to sort out. No, it shouldn't happen in a church, but the ugly reality is, that it does. I haven't figured out yet how to deal with it. But it's still there, and it's still ugly.

But every Friday, I play Scrabble with an 87-yr-old Mercy nun, and it's always wonderful and I love that woman with all my heart. And every Sunday, I sing my little heart out at Mass With a choir that has too many Trump supporters in the men's section and a lot of brilliant women who don't like Trump. And then I spend time with a lot of people I love. And the sex abuse scandal seems very far away, although I know it's still there.


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Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: Mossback
Date: 10 Feb 19 - 06:34 PM

Then too, the Houston Chronicle article should come as no surprise considering the several Evangelical denominations are composed of hypocrite fundamentalist lunatics who have replaced Jesus with Trump.


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Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: Mossback
Date: 10 Feb 19 - 06:27 PM

That's only one of several horrors the Southern Baptists are responsible for - but it could be worse: there are the Conservative Baptists and the Primitive Baptists et. al.


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Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: Rapparee
Date: 10 Feb 19 - 03:00 PM

And now...ladies and gentlemen...direct from The Houston Chronicle!


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Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: ollaimh
Date: 10 Feb 19 - 02:47 PM

kick out all those who committed sex offences, and other offences, and ll those who aided and abbetted, and start over, and give away the money to charities for the victims. that would be a spiritual organization. otherwise the usual demon worshipers who think thier demon is god.


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Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: Donuel
Date: 10 Feb 19 - 09:29 AM

Well Joe, so far your alibi for May 12th is holding up. :^/


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Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: Joe Offer
Date: 10 Feb 19 - 12:22 AM

I think that most people don't commit crime, because crime doesn't make sense to them - it does not fit into their philosophy of life, if you will. The fear of punishment has something to do with it, but I think that most people don't commit crime because crime is senseless and absurd to them.

So, the people who DO commit crime, very often have something wrong with them. I think an awful lot of them, are able to make themselves believe they are doing the right thing. Authority telling them otherwise, will have very little effect on them.

As for the coverups, I think it's a number of things. One is the liability, which has reached an outrageous extreme. If a middle manager (bishop) has to pay millions of dollars in reparation for an action he had no knowledge of, that burden may be just too much to take and may drive a weak person to coverup - and most middle managers are weak persons. Another reason is mistaken loyalty to a priest who "couldn't possibly do anything so horrible." Or some sort of insensitive that elitist bishops have to the lower classes. Or any number of other reasons that need to be explored.

I don't usually like people who are in management, and I've rarely met a Catholic bishop I've admired - but I have to admit that some priests and bishops that I HAVE admired, have committed these horrible crimes nonetheless.

-Joe-


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Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 Feb 19 - 07:50 PM

I don't need to be told by anyone not to commit crime or do anything else that's plainly injurious to anyone else. The question is, how do I know?


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Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: Joe Offer
Date: 09 Feb 19 - 06:12 PM

Wait! Wait! Wait!

Obama is now the one responsible for the sex crimes committed by Catholic priests, mostly before the year 2002?

For the most part, the crimes committed were crimes against state law, and not under federal jurisdiction. Of course the same question of jurisdiction applies to the Catholic Church, where the offenses all fell within the jurisdiction of the local diocese.

If the local jurisdiction fails to prosecute, then someone from the local area must file a complaint with a higher authority. That's the standard way it works. There is no automatic national or international oversight, either in the U.S. government or in the Vatican. Local authorities are expected to deal with local issues.

-Joe-


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Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: John P
Date: 09 Feb 19 - 04:52 PM

I am heartily sick of all the right wing assholes complaining about what a bad president Obama was, but the Catholic sex crimes are one place where he seriously dropped the ball. And we are still fumbling it. If any other multi-national corporation was shown to be officially engaged in a massive child-rape conspiracy, we would have hired an army of lawyers and raided every office in the country, and confiscated every piece of paper and every computer hard drive. We wouldn't still be wringing our hands about it. We'd be watching hundreds of high-ranking corporate executives go to jail.


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Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: John P
Date: 09 Feb 19 - 04:45 PM

Raggytash: I can assure you Joe I, and I would suggest most people, refrain from crime because we are told by "authorities" not to commit crime.

That's actually rather scary. I know that I don't commit crimes for the simple reason that it is wrong to do so. For anyone who thinks civilization is a good thing, committing crimes is irrational. If I wanted to commit a crime, I'm smart enough to figure out how to do it without getting caught.


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Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 09 Feb 19 - 01:23 PM

They are supposed to show us how to live our lives free from sin and to resist temptation at all times.

I’m not sure about that Raggy. My own take is that churches can recognise our fallibility and I like the (Anglican) book of Common Prayer lines:
We have left undone those things which we ought to have done; And we have done those things which we ought not to have done;

It’s true of me and likely true of most…

But that’s mostly a digression. Whereas it might be recognised that we, the people, sin, churches and their officials are expected to be our (for want of a better term) “moral guides” and follow these “high standards” themselves. I suppose it can be quite a shock to learn that priests have been involved in things abominable. I guess I could speculate that might add to the temptation to cover things up although, obviously, that is not the way.

The only way forwards is openness, acknowledging crimes and dealing with such matters according to the law of the land(s).


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Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Feb 19 - 01:02 PM

RELUCTANCE TO INVESTIGATE A "GLOBAL ISSUE"
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: Thompson
Date: 09 Feb 19 - 12:40 PM

America too - and I have no doubt also other, civilised countries.

"In a statement issued Thursday, the Leadership Conference of Women Religious, the largest association representing nuns in the U.S., said that while this problem is prevalent mostly in developing countries — there have been many cases in Africa, and last year a nun in India accused a priest of repeatedly raping her between 2014 and 2016 — it has gone on in the U.S., too.

"The conference specifically referenced a 1996 study from St. Louis University that indicated, "there were sisters in the United States who had suffered some form of sexual trauma by Catholic priests. Often those sisters did not share this information even with their own communities." "


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Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: Raggytash
Date: 09 Feb 19 - 12:18 PM

What !!

I can assure you Joe I, and I would suggest most people, refrain from crime because we are told by "authorities" not to commit crime.

Which planet do you live on??


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Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Feb 19 - 12:17 PM

It's not the crime, which, as you say can happen anywhere
It's the long tern facilitating by covering up those crimes by the hierarchy that is destroying the church from within
They are still acting like an organisation that doesn't have the good sense to come in from the rain - the Bishop Barros fiasco being typical
Personally I don't care less about the fate of the Church, but I care about my friends and relatives who would be deeply distressed should it collapse in the manner it is set fair to do
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: Joe Offer
Date: 09 Feb 19 - 11:58 AM

But that's not the reality, Raggytash. Your contention shows a lack of understanding of crime, particularly sex crimes. People don't refrain from crime, just because some authority tells them not to do it. For the most part, crime is best dealt with by criminal prosecution.


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Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: Raggytash
Date: 09 Feb 19 - 11:47 AM

"why not in the church"

Simple Joe, because the church(es) are supposed to be beyond reproach. They are supposed to show us how to live our lives free from sin and to resist temptation at all times.


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Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Feb 19 - 11:33 AM

"In a statement issued Thursday, the Leadership Conference of Women Religious, the largest association representing nuns in the U.S., said that while this problem is prevalent mostly in developing countries — there have been many cases in Africa, and last year a nun in India accused a priest of repeatedly raping her between 2014 and 2016 — it has gone on in the U.S., too."
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: Joe Offer
Date: 09 Feb 19 - 10:47 AM

The sexual abuse of nuns by priests has happened frequently in various African nations. I also recall a case in Ohio. I'm sure there are more.
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/2019/02/07/pope-reveals-nun-abuse-but-u-s-activists-say-problem-isnt-new/2804109002/


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Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Feb 19 - 06:44 AM

"It happens everywhere, so why not in churches?"
The 'divine' power of the church reaches far beyond that of any secular organisation so any attempts at comparison are totally irrelevant
One of the effects of revelations such as these has been to loosen the once almost unassailable power of the church - the last battle appears to be over the Church's continuing control over childrens' minds via the education system - hopefully that will be sorted out this year
If church supporters haven't realised the damage being done by the church's intransigence and evasion the destruction of their church will be down to them

To my knowledge, the rape and sexual abuse of nuns has never been raised as an issue publicly - if it had been it would have exploded as violently as has clerical child abuse and Magdalene slavery   
An at least "thirty year old" cover-up, it would appear
When will they ever learn ?
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: Joe Offer
Date: 08 Feb 19 - 09:09 PM

A report came out in the New York Times the other day that priests had sexually abused nuns. This is something that I've known about for maybe thirty years - it has been discussed at length in Catholic newspapers like America and National Catholic Reporter. I am disgusted and embarrassed that this sort of thing would happen in my church, but the reality is that it DOES happen - that it's almost certain to happen in an organization with 1.2 billion members. It happens everywhere, so why not in churches?

A friend of mine posted the NY Times article on Facebook and urged his Catholic friends to leave their church, and here's how I responded:
    Maybe you can't understand this, but please try. I see each new exposure of misconduct as a step forward, not as a reason for leaving. I have known of these issues all my life, and I have fought against this sort of malfeasance for years. When it is brought to light and especially when it is prosecuted, I see that as a victory.
    But I am still Catholic because that's who I am. To leave, would be to betray myself. So I will remain a Catholic, and will continue to work to fix what's wrong with Catholicism.

-Joe-


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Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: Donuel
Date: 08 Feb 19 - 07:44 PM

Nuns are fun but Priests are creeps.


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Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
From: Mrrzy
Date: 08 Feb 19 - 11:55 AM

Ah ha ha in gory ha ha whew hee hee...


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