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BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations
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Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations From: mg Date: 21 Dec 18 - 07:22 PM in Illinois it has gone from about 168 reported to about 500-700 the attorney general herself is working on. And Pell undoubtedly had financial experience running huge dioceses and abusing victims to prevent them from tapping into resources. But was he capable of dealing with mafia money laundering? International finance? it all sounds so fishy to me and I wrote the pope at the time. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations From: Joe Offer Date: 21 Dec 18 - 07:15 PM I do question ollaimh's report of "another seven hundred priestly rapists of children in michigan." As with most of the recent reports, they are summaries of information that has already been known for years, for the most part. http://bishop-accountability.org/ lists 128 offenders in Michigan. No doubt, the current investigations will find more, but certainly not 700. The truth is bad enough. I don't see why ollaimh feels compelled to inflate it. -Joe- https://www.detroitnews.com/story/news/local/michigan/2018/09/21/schuette-investigation-michigan-priests-sexual-abuse/1378827002/ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations From: Joe Offer Date: 21 Dec 18 - 06:56 PM No, Donuel, mg meant Australia. Pope Francis moved Cardinal George Pell from Australia to the Vatican to take care of the financial mess in the Vatican. By all reports, he did a good job with the finances; but then it turned out that he made an even bigger mess by his coverups and his own sexual misconduct. And that brings up my perennial question - can a person guilty of sexual misconduct do anything of value, or should such a person be shunned as a total reprobate? Is the work of Garrison Keillor and Bill Cosby and Cardinal Pell and so many others, of no value? What should we do with regards to the work they've done? -Joe- https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2018/may/01/who-is-cardinal-george-pell-and-what-is-he-accused-of |
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Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations From: Donuel Date: 21 Dec 18 - 06:39 PM We know you meant Austria. I saw the Pope story. I do not know if he made these declarations by sticky notes, tweets or documents. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations From: mg Date: 21 Dec 18 - 04:36 PM pope has told clerics to turn themselves in and others to stop enabling. I asked why he did not do this the first hour he was pope. And it is not like someone could not figure out this would bankrupt the church..especially when the creepy creep was brought out of Australia to control finances of church...pope says nice things but has failed miserably..not just by not responding properly but by actively saying things to further hurt the abused. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations From: ollaimh Date: 21 Dec 18 - 04:34 PM another seven hundred priestly rapists of children in michigan. they didn't understand what "suffer the little children meant" and the people inside are the enablers, and untill they are jailed as well it won't stop |
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Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations From: Iains Date: 17 Dec 18 - 06:37 AM I cannot understand the rationale of a gagging order in cases of child abuse. Keeping it in the shadows merely encourages a continuation. Cannot make a link for below: (It creates a 'not found' page) An Australian court's gag order is no match for the ... - Washington Post https://www.washingtonpost.com/lifestyle/style/an-australian-courts-gag-order-is-no-mat... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations From: Donuel Date: 16 Dec 18 - 03:04 PM Ever notice the church has narrow stairway to heaven and a Highway to Hell? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations From: keberoxu Date: 16 Dec 18 - 01:41 PM Long before Rome, there was Byzantium. Well before the Catholic Christians, there were the Eastern Orthodox Christians. And not all that much attention, in mass media, goes to revelations of clerical abuse, be it of minors or of grown adults, by Eastern Orthodox clerics. If you look, and one doesn't have all that far to look, the Eastern Orthodox wing of Christianity is also breaking the silence about clerical abuse, as it has been a fact of life in that denomination for a long time, and the cover-ups and bureaucratic power plays have been equally pervasive. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations From: Donuel Date: 16 Dec 18 - 11:42 AM When it comes to sex and the Church it resembles the secular world. Just don't try this at home. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations From: ollaimh Date: 16 Dec 18 - 11:09 AM people like holy joe have studied child abuse for a long time with no answers,because they are worshipping evil and calling it god. they are the enablers who let it happen. they have to be jailed. the abusers have to be jailed. yes serious unishment and not rehabiulitation for the irredeemable because that is what they are irredeemably evil becuase they have spent lifetimes, and centuries looking evil in the face and colcluding it is just a conundrum, a puzzler. the real puzzler is why any one belives in the mad god and the evil churches. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations From: ollaimh Date: 16 Dec 18 - 11:06 AM yes the abuse goes well beyond sex, it is about power butjust as importantly, and usually ignored, it about evil. the demons are inside the gates, the evilest people alive are protecting these abusers because they are a new level of hell on earth. christianity has been devil worshiping since saint augistine of hippo and it only got worse in the middle ages. it has perpetrated mass murder world wide and still is. war criminals like tony blair find god, bush never left god and that god is evil |
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Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations From: Rapparee Date: 15 Dec 18 - 07:57 PM Now there's this. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations From: Big Al Whittle Date: 13 Dec 18 - 02:25 PM Well that's a bit of an odd story by any standards, Jim. Do you remember Oliver? He used to have a bit of time for priests. I said the wrong thing to him once or twice. I think there is a strain of thought that they were sometimes from the poor families themselves, often a long way from home....more to pitied than condemned. Some people have suggested that the only reason the Pope won't let priests be married and have normal sex lives is that it would cost twice as much to employ a married priest. Wrong way to look at it really - that way you get two people working for sod all. You get the vicar's wife doing stuff as well. Plus you get a married man. and everyone knows they never have sexual problems. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations From: Jim Carroll Date: 13 Dec 18 - 12:51 PM The abuse goes gfar beyond sexual and in my opinion was as much an expression of power than of sexual perversion - read about the industial schools or the Magdalene laundries to get examples of largely non-sexual abuse I've told this story before, but it merits re-telling Traveller, Mary Delaney was one of the finest singers we met Both she and her sister were blind from birth - their father managed to get treatment for Mary's sister She was operated on and after te operation, when they removed the dressings, she found she had her sight back - it lasted for a short time but faded again into total blindness When Mary's father told the hospital priest what had occurred he asked, "did you say, thanks be to god? He replied that he had been too excited "That's why she lost her sight again". the priest told him When we met the father we found that guilt had driven him to the bottle and he had become a helpless drunk As far as I am concerned, that goes far beyond abuse and was sheer sadism - a total misuse of religious authority THat is what I was I meant when I referred to "the backing of a supreme being" Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations From: Iains Date: 13 Dec 18 - 11:48 AM Big Al I was brought up a catholic with a secondary education by Jesuits. The scout troop I belonged to was run by the parish priest.In my entire time as a "child" I can honestly say I had not heard of even a rumour of abuse. It obviously happened in many other places-the statistics cannot be denied. That it severely traumatized many of those abused is also beyond dispute. That it destroyed lives and families is not disputed. Having not experienced it first hand I cannot truly imagine the depths of misery experienced by the victims. As a partial aside I was watching a you tube clip recently on Irish males that emigrated to Britain in the 50's and 60's. Many are now in poor health and living in bedsits in places like Birmingham. One of them being interviewed told how he had been abused by a priest in a county home in baltimore. He was then threatened by the senior priest there with dire punishment if he "spoke out of turn" I cannot imagine his feelings of pain, rejection, betrayal and hopelessness in such a situation. It really was a gut wrenching story. No. you are right I cannot understand the betrayal of trust, but I can appreciate how such things can wreck lives, and their individual stories play havoc with the emotions. But this comes nowhere near to appreciating how the victims felt. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations From: Big Al Whittle Date: 13 Dec 18 - 10:32 AM I think the thing is Iain - maybe you don't understand what the betrayal of trust felt like. I came from an orange and green family. There was some sort of family bust up with the priest, and my Mum was the only kid out of four , brought up as a Protestant. I really loved my cousin. He was about a year older than me. Though we went to different churches and different schools. We were very close. I can remember how proud his Mum was and she gave us a photo of him wearing a sash and praying at his first communion. He became a choir boy.When he come round in his new suit. We had to sit round listening to him sing the mass in Latin, and admire him. Of course he went to the teaching brothers school. I was even went on holiday with him one year with the brothers. the teaching brothers . His Mum was proud when he went to Catholic Grammar Scool and got his O levels , all grade one.two years early. They were SO poor, but they totally respectful of the clergy. THey lived in a house in the back streets of St Helens that had been condemned before the 1st world war. These people were as poor as people were allowed to be in 1950's England They gave their love and respect, and they entrusted their child to the care of that church. When thirty years later, I found out how my little cousin whom I loved, had been abused. It broke my heart that people could be so bloody rotten. Its when its under your nose that the stink appals. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations From: Jim Carroll Date: 13 Dec 18 - 07:20 AM Why not answer the points rather than throwing stones at them The Clerics used their religious calling to rape children and the Church used its religious power to hide and continue those rapes Your one liner- dismissals don't count as debate as far as I'm concerned Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations From: Iains Date: 13 Dec 18 - 06:08 AM "no other group has ever had the backing of a supreme being to carry out and hide at least a century of clerical abuse" Why try to deliberately destroy an interesting and important thread by posting arrant nonsense? Are you saying God encourages child abuse? you are a fool! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations From: Jim Carroll Date: 13 Dec 18 - 05:35 AM "It is open as to whether this is deserved or not." It most certainly is not - the world has moved on from this silly argument and the church stands on the brink of extinction due to these know cases of clerical abuse having been deliberately covered up by the hierarchy Whataboutism doesn't wash here - no other group has ever had the backing of a supreme being to carry out and hide at least a century of clerical abuse Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations From: Iains Date: 13 Dec 18 - 05:09 AM There seems to be undercurrent in this thread of hammering the Catholic Church. It is open as to whether this is deserved or not. Catholicism cannot claim the monopoly of clerical abuse claims. It might be better to consider the problem in a wider context. In some countries today it is necessary to be vetted, before being allowed near children. It does not prevent abuse but it must certainly reduce it. There is no excuse for abuse - even historical abuse where social mores may have been slightly more relaxed. But I hear no protest about the 350,000 under age British soldiers that served in WW1 and surely the resulting deaths and severe injuries suffered by them were a far greater abuse. Yet this historical fact is never discussed in terms of abuse, despite the fact that the government of the day relied on their numbers to delay the introduction of conscription. Much of the abuse discussed is historical yet no mention is made of ongoing abuse today Grooming by Asian gangs is a fact,trying to conceal by addressingit as racist abuse is a mockery of justice. Bacha bazi, meaning 'boy play', is a tradition found across Afghanistan, where boys are trained to dance and forced to share sexual "favours". Child soldiers in Africa are suffering abuse. UN peacekeepers are betraying their uniforms and raison d'être by constantly hitting the headlines for child sexual abuse during their various missions. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Child_sexual_abuse_by_UN_peacekeepers It is admirable to highlight historical abuse,but should not the emphasis be on the here and now in order to prevent further cases of abuse? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations From: Jim Carroll Date: 13 Dec 18 - 03:53 AM It is reckoned that the most common occurrences of paedophelia take place within families or known circles of friends and acquaintances. We are discussing institutional sexual deviation here, where powerful an influential State bodies have either ignored the rape o children other than when they have been covered up to protect their position in society - a different ball-game altogether Hopefully, as far as the church goes, that will never be allowed to happen again, but that doesn't mean there isn't a mess still to be uncovered and debts to be paid New cases are still being found and the church is still dragging its feet over paying for their crimes - last year it was reckoned that the Irish Church still owes €1.3 billion in reparation, despite the fact that the State agreed to pay the lions share In behaving the way they have, the church is rapidly losing all credibility and influence, as they should - probably the only positive thing to come out of this sick, sorry mess Ironically, thanks to the Church's behaviour, Ireland now has mixed sex marriage and the same right to pregnancy termination as does the civilised world - next year (hopefully), divorce and women's position in society will be dealt with responsibly without the dead hand of the church influencing any decision That the church threatened politicians who voted 'wrongly' over abortion with excommunication, indicates that they have learned nothing Their behaviour as as much a betrayal of the faithful as it is a drag on modern society as a whole - it is also a gun to their own head Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations From: Big Al Whittle Date: 12 Dec 18 - 09:56 PM 'Does sex with children happen more often in churches or among clergy?' Theres a tendency to look where the light is. One of my oldest friends was in the Quaker Friends Ambulance Corps in World War 2. No longer with us. But he told me that in the arab countries where he served, many families had fairly relaxed attitude to what we would call paedophilia. He was in this home, fairly ordinary arab family home - and old Grandad came in and started playing with the little kid's balls. It seemed to be acceptable behaviour. I dunno - but it seems to be a strain within people. Perhaps some of the trauma victims experience is from our unrelaxed attitude. I've gotten old. I don't know anything about anything any more. My Dad was a cop and used to stake out the bogs in the park arresting people presumably trying to sort out some sort of sex life. I've seen changes in attitudes to sexuality so profound in my lifetime. I can't even begin to guess what will be 'normal' in a few years time. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations From: Joe Offer Date: 12 Dec 18 - 03:10 PM I can't say I know of any religions that promote pedophilia. Most Christian groups have taboos against it, and I'm sure most other religions do, also. Do taboos help? I don't know. Some cultures have promoted the cultivation of young boys for sex - I believe it was fashionable in both Greece and Rome at times. There was a "North American Man-Boy Love Association" (NAMBLA) here in Northern California that was very self-righteous about sex with boys being a good thing for both the men and the boys. Does sex with children happen more often in churches or among clergy? I haven't seen any data to support that, but it certainly gets a lot of press when it happens. It also happens frequently in youth choirs, scout groups, schools, and athletic teams - places where adults have the opportunity for close, trusting, long-term relationships with kids. Those same opportunities happen in church groups. But I think that most of us would say that such close, trusting, long-term relationships are good for kids - they certainly were good for me when I was growing up. The trouble is, such relationships also provide the opportunity for abuse, and we must develop ways to reduce that danger. This is a subject that is very difficult to discuss honestly and dispassionately, because so many strong emotions are involved. The best understanding should come from studies of the victims and the perpetrators of these crimes, and neither of these are in a position to provide information freely. So, despite the eagerness of many to pontificate about the subject, I think there's a lot we just don't understand about all this. -Joe- |
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Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations From: Donuel Date: 12 Dec 18 - 11:40 AM Margaret 'Psy' Cho, a comedian, has put forth that the sentencing of child sexual abuse criminals should not be life in prison because prison sex would be a reward. Instead execution is much more fitting. Executions should be carried out by a "bevy" of very mean women who live together long enough until there cycles match and carry out the execution a week before their cycle. Other people that need to receive a final sentence are Weinstien, Cosby, Trump and all his woman hating enablers. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations From: Jim Carroll Date: 12 Dec 18 - 05:54 AM £Utterly predictable responses" No - just humanist If pedophilia is "Muslim", it must also be "Catholic" and, as it has been found to have taken place in Protestant Churches - "Christian", which would be stupidly bigoted Revelations, of late have disclosed far more Christian pedophilia than "Asian grooming" - Christian clerical abuse of children in these islands dates back at least a century - far longer and far more numerous than that practiced by Asian criminals Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations From: Brian May Date: 12 Dec 18 - 05:21 AM Utterly predictable responses |
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Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations From: Jim Carroll Date: 12 Dec 18 - 02:48 AM The ethnic origins of the'grooming gangs' is totally immaterial - they were a tiny number of criminals and, next to the number of indigenous criminals engaged in similar activities, never featured on the paeophelia scale The press made an issue of the ones of foreign origin and ignored the home-grown ones As it has now become apparent, there were probably more well-known celebrities, members of Parliament and leading businessmen involved in far more series activities, including torture and murder, many who escaped justice because of who and what they were. It was racist to have concentrated on the cultural origins of these few criminals NEW SCANDAL TO HIT THE IRISH FAN Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations From: Steve Shaw Date: 10 Dec 18 - 08:11 PM The so-called grooming gangs didn't come from Asia. Thus your racism. And the vast majority of those men of God don't abuse children. A few of them do, and their institution has been stupid enough to cover for them and put its own reputation above the well-being of those young people. That's how it is. I was born and raised a Catholic, educated for thirteen years in Catholic schools, including seven in a secondary school run by the Salesian Fathers, and taught in a Catholic school run by priests, nuns and brothers for seven years. I didn't see or hear of a single case of sexual abuse of a child, and I assure you that I'm a staunch and vigilant defender of young people, as Joe will tell you in a different context, to do with Catholic education, in which he thinks I'm wrong-headed. The abuses are and were horrendous and the Church dealt with the issue wrong-headedly. But hundreds of millions of Catholics, including thousands of priests, are simply no better or worse than anyone else. I'm an ex-Catholic and a Dawkinsian atheist and would never defend religion, but if you are inclined to be grossly unfair to the vast majority of Catholics without qualification then you are an abuser yourself. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations From: Brian May Date: 10 Dec 18 - 05:49 PM Very interesting to see the response to this thread on the disgusting abuse of children by 'men of God'. A few years back, when I pointed out the increasing disclosures of Asian grooming gangs abusing young (mainly) white girls, I was informed by the worthies here that I was just a racist bigot. In fact many of you were quite aggressive about it. How do you feel now? It's interesting how great swathes of the population turn on the messenger and plumb the depths of denial rather than face the issue. Since my last post on the subject, when I promised this disgusting phenomenon was not going to go away, there have been countless repeats. Just Google 'Asian Grooming Gangs'. Is every response penned by a racist bigot, or is it a simple truth? So for all the (justified) disgust regarding the church behaviour and covers up by the senior clergy, why not spare a thought for the thousands of kids abused in our own back yard. And for those who abused me for pointing it out, may your karma be merciful . . . |
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Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations From: Big Al Whittle Date: 09 Dec 18 - 01:13 PM More revelations...! https://soundcloud.com/denise_whittle/the-day-delaneys-donkey-had |
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Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations From: Big Al Whittle Date: 09 Dec 18 - 02:56 AM Terribly sad business. I've known some wonderful Roman Catholic people. As Jim says, those people deserve so much better. Clinging to mysteries in the name of obedience and mysticism is just so not playing the game. I think its got to the point where basic human decency and humanity should be within the compass of every right thinking person - no exceptions - Popes, Imams....everyone. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations From: Steve Shaw Date: 08 Dec 18 - 08:11 PM Don't let him personalise this, Joe. He's clearly a chap with an agenda. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations From: Joe Offer Date: 08 Dec 18 - 07:57 PM Well, one would expect ollaimh to be confused. Probably never had a rational thought in his body. I've known hundreds of priests in my lifetime, and a few of them were accused of molesting children - maybe as many as 20. I knew nothing about any sexual misconduct of any priest, until the accusations were published in the newspaper. Child sexual abuse is a very difficult crime to detect. It is a crime committed in utmost secrecy. And those secrets are kept for decades, sometimes forever. -Joe- |
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Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations From: Steve Shaw Date: 08 Dec 18 - 07:38 PM Out of order. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations From: ollaimh Date: 08 Dec 18 - 07:34 PM and i have to say that people like joe offer are the real problem. he says we worked with pedophile priests for , was it forty years?< and didn't warn parents who they were? if you knew you have a positive ethical obligation to publicly identify these dangers to children. and there need to be felony child endangerment laws to put peope who fail to warn in jail for significant terms. that is what it will take to stop it. all the hand wringing , talk about helping the pedohiles and rationalizations have achieved northing. we need to jail these enablers first and foremost to make it stop. i would be a great idea to end tax exempt status for churches like the catholic church that so egregiously failed to protect children, especially the racist genocide they perpetrated on native children. these churches are the embodiment of true evil in the world |
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Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations From: Jim Carroll Date: 05 Dec 18 - 04:39 AM The latest examples of te Pope describing homosexuality as "a trend" seems to indicate that the church has learned nothing and probably never will Saves the expense of employing a gravedigger as they seem quite happy to dig their own Ireland faces another holy war in the coming few months as a date has now been decided on a referendum on Divorcee, almost certain to be followed by one to remove the constitutional clause which says "a woman's place in in the home" Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations From: Steve Shaw Date: 05 Dec 18 - 03:13 AM And Joe has called ME an absolutist! :-) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations From: ollaimh Date: 05 Dec 18 - 01:31 AM these evil christians make scientology look good |
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Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations From: ollaimh Date: 05 Dec 18 - 01:29 AM joe still has his head in the sand. these are the worse possible abusers and very little has been done, especially in native schools in the usa where it is still the practice to destroy the records of the victims of crime, and then say well they were never here, even thought they have dozens or more witnesses to their attendance. pure racism, from a church that has done deals with racists from day one. it would be nice to kick them out of north america. the destruction of lives they have wreaked on a mass scale is despicable. their apologists wring their hand here and whine we did all we could. all you could do was so inadequate as to be a criminal conspiracy to aid and abbet widespread major criminal activity. it just shows that the gnostic dualists were right. christians are worshiping a devil and calling it god |
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Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations From: keberoxu Date: 03 Dec 18 - 01:13 PM Here is another feature story about the applications of civil RICO to the Church. This story is a few months old, and I missed it at the time. Today, I find this report riveting. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations From: keberoxu Date: 30 Nov 18 - 01:58 PM Former U.S. Prosecutor David Hickton in a recent interview. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations From: Donuel Date: 29 Nov 18 - 09:04 PM mg You mentioned remarks of "I never knew." are unbelievable. These kind of lies are most likely from people who did know but did not commit a heinous act. This helps the liar deal with the ethical dilemma of being a kind of witness but choosing to protect the institution over the victims which is a sin in my book. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations From: keberoxu Date: 29 Nov 18 - 11:07 AM Two things strike me about the article I just read. First, it's front-page news in USA Today which has a wide and diverse population of readers. Second, David Hickton, profiled in the article, started out his life as a Catholic school student who somehow escaped being assaulted and abused, but was surrounded by teammates, literally, who became victims -- and Hickton ended up working as a U. S. Attorney prosecutor. Catholic prosecutor took on his own church |
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Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations From: Steve Shaw Date: 12 Nov 18 - 05:49 PM I think that it's very important to confront honestly all the allegations against clerics in the Church. I haven't got a lot of time for any organised religion, but I know that there are thousands of priests, bishops and nuns, as well as devout Catholic laypersons, who must feel devastated by all this. What a shame that the Church has effectively institutionalised the issue by denial, reluctance to act and covering up. The institution has let Catholicism down big time. What the Church does now is key to the future. We need to see honesty, openness, quick action and contrition. I'm a cradle Catholic, well-lapsed of course, and I've been educated and been an educator for decades in Catholic schools, working with many priests, brothers and nuns. I saw no sex abuse and I can tell you (having worked for a long time in non-Catholic sectors as well) that all those people seemed no better or worse than anyone else. If the issue is not confronted there'll be a gathering storm, even worse than now. In the British Labour Party there were accusations of institutional antisemitism. Almost all Labour members were devastated by the accusations. The party acted quickly and openly and held an enquiry that was very public. The storm has been somewhat staunched, though not completely killed off. That's how it goes. There will always be people out to get you, no matter how hard you try to right the wrongs. The Church has got to do the right thing, quickly and fully in the public eye. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations From: Joe Offer Date: 12 Nov 18 - 04:34 PM This article quotes the head of SNAP (Survivors Network of those Abused by Priests) as saying nearly one-third of U.S. bishops have been accused of mishandling claims of sexual abuse. I'm guessing that many of those accusations involve bungled situations and not intentional misconduct, so I'm sticking with my ten percent figure for now. At least in my seminary in the 1960s, we got no training on how to handle complaints of child sexual abuse - that training is now given to all employees and volunteers who work in my diocese. Handling such complaints is not as straightforward as it seems, because the natural inclination is not to believe accusations of sexual misconduct against young priests who seem so nice. Employees and volunteers are now instucted to report all such questions to both law enforcement and church management, and leave the sorting to professionals. At their meeting this month, the U.S. bishops were set to vote on proposals for dealing with misconduct by bishops. At the last minute, they received a Vatican to postpone that vote until after the international meeting on the subject that will take place early next year. I suppose that makes sense, but such delays are frustrating and disappointing. -Joe- |
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Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations From: Thompson Date: 06 Nov 18 - 05:58 PM What astonishes me is how this happened. 1800 years or so of - mostly - civil behaviour by priests (from which I except Thomas à Becket, whose row with the king was over whether the state or the church should try an abusive priest who killed his victim's father when he objected to his "seduction of his daughter). Anyway, apart from Tom, mostly decent priests and nuns dedicated to service and goodness. Then… what? Power, I suppose: power over whole societies which didn't dare resist them; the power to imprison women and sell children, and have no one say them nay, under the pretence of "saving" them. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations From: mg Date: 06 Nov 18 - 04:05 PM Recent boston globe article says 30% of living bishops. Even that sounds low. Do we know how many actually reported offensives, say since 2002 or so when at the very least they should have seen the writing on the wall. I think many were trying to protect church assets, and I don't blame them, but some were totally willing (aka pell and others) to be totally cruel to victims..oh dear..so was the pope in chili. I am thinking a bishop in us who reported anything to anybody would be an absolute outlier but I could be wrong. And those international bishops who declared at a synod this just was not a problem in their dioceses are beyond belief. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations From: mg Date: 05 Nov 18 - 12:15 PM I don't think it was not even 10%. Something I read recently said it was now with existing Bishops somewhere between 30 to 50% and and in previous years it seems like almost all of them. I think we need to know what the truth is and if there are Scholars here who have access to this information if we could get a somewhat accurate estimate and that would be good. I think there's no way in hell it's 10% |
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Subject: RE: BS: Clerical abuse of kids: More Revelations From: Joe Offer Date: 03 Nov 18 - 04:06 PM I've been awake for a long time, ollaimh. When I was in the seminary in the 1960s, the Catholic Archdiocese of Milwaukee put us through an extensive [and intrusive and embarrassing] battery of psychological testing and psychiatrist interviews, in an attempt to weed out seminarians who should not be ordained priests because they might be likely to commit sex crimes. Other dioceses were doing similar screening. They believed this would solve the problem. In the 1970s, Catholic dioceses in the United States built expensive, state-of-the art treatment centers for priests who had problems with addictions and sexual misconduct. They believed this would certainly solve the problem, and they felt safe about reassigning priests to new parishes. That backfired. At least since the 1980s, my current home diocese of Sacramento has had a standard, immediate response to allegations of sexual misconduct by priests:
There were some bishops who covered up offenses (some out of fear and some out of malice), but certainly not even ten percent. But if one diocese had a practice of covering up offenses, that could quickly add up to a large number of offending priests and an even larger number of victims. And since bishops get moved around, more dioceses could be affected than there were offending bishops. It didn't seem to matter whether the bishops were liberal or conservative - some of each covered up these crimes, and thus were guilty of crimes themselves. And of course, many of the crimes were covered up by ecclesiastical functionaries without the bishop knowing. And many crimes were committed that were not covered up. And many other crimes were committed that the victims did not report. The result was a relatively large number of crimes and victims and a relatively small number of people committing the crimes. There were crimes in every diocese in the United States, and most probably in every diocese in the world. But most bishops did not cover up the crimes, and most Catholics were only slightly aware the crimes were happening. But yes, I was aware such crimes were happening as far back as the 1960s, and I'm sure almost all priests and bishops were also aware. But I was also aware that even back in the 1960s, Catholic dioceses were doing a lot to prevent and control and respond to crimes of the sexual abuse of children. Those measures failed to prevent all these crimes, and that is a shame and a scandal. Those who committed the sex crimes and the coverups must be investigated, prosecuted, and punished; and the victims must be compensated. We Catholics want this matter to be resolved, settled, and ended. It's our children who were the victims. -Joe Offer- |
