UK Folk Revival 2018

Subject: RE: UK Folk Revival 2018
From: GUEST,Cj
Date: 10 Sep 18 - 10:37 AM

"Guest Cj, What is the correct accent and pronouncement of the English language?"

Well, in this context, the answer for me personally is one's own...

I know some folk love mid-Atlantic accents, I just never have.

Subject: RE: UK Folk Revival 2018
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 10 Sep 18 - 09:44 AM

Stet

Subject: RE: UK Folk Revival 2018
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 10 Sep 18 - 08:36 AM

GUEST,Derrick - My mrs is Welsh... she'd applaud you for your mistyping...

Subject: RE: UK Folk Revival 2018
From: GUEST,Derrick
Date: 10 Sep 18 - 07:32 AM

OOPs separate English and it.

Subject: RE: UK Folk Revival 2018
From: GUEST,Derrick
Date: 10 Sep 18 - 07:30 AM

Guest Cj, What is the correct accent and pronouncement of the English language?
Most people would say received or Kings/Queens English.
That is a regional English from the Midlands and parts of Southern England which was adopted by the upper classes and academics.
Because those people had a such a high opinion of themselves they considered their speech to be superior to the accents and dialects of the ordinary folk,and therefore correct.
See here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Received_Pronunciation
The only need for a standard English is to ensure you can be understood in all parts of the country.
If everyone in the conversation is familiar with the accent or dialect being spoken be it Geordie or received Englishit doesn't matter,and often adds richness and colour to the conversation.

Subject: RE: UK Folk Revival 2018
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Sep 18 - 07:10 AM

"but a shame to miss the Guthrie anyhow."
It is, but it doesn't have to be
There are far more Guthrie recordings unavailable now than there ever where
We used to sing them on the Aldermaston Marches or on the chara trips to Blackpool to see the lights
Jim

Subject: RE: UK Folk Revival 2018
From: GUEST,Cj
Date: 10 Sep 18 - 06:50 AM

Interesting point Dick made about less Woody Guthrie songs being sang when people began reverting to their own accents. I guess those people picked up on their own local songs, but a shame to miss the Guthrie anyhow.

My view on accents is they're one step away from wearing a C.U. Jimmy or cowboy hat. At best they're unnecessary, at worst, comical, distracting and even offensive...

Subject: RE: UK Folk Revival 2018
From: GUEST,padgett
Date: 10 Sep 18 - 03:01 AM

I still have said 45 vinyl Blow the Man Down ~ Bert Lloyd, Ewan MacColl and Harry H Corbett on Topic recorded by Bill Leader ~ first published 1956

Ray

Subject: RE: UK Folk Revival 2018
From: GUEST,Ake
Date: 09 Sep 18 - 01:25 PM

Jim's mention of Harry H Corbett, reminds me that he was a folkie long before Steptoe, I had(probably still have)an LP on which he was singing shanties!

Subject: RE: UK Folk Revival 2018
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 09 Sep 18 - 11:31 AM

... and more relevant to the current strand of this thread...

Me and the mrs have been listening all afternoon to vintage Blue Beat and Ska...

One song we enjoyed enough to repeat a few times was Derrick Morgan - Don't Call Me Daddy [lyrics]

Now as much as I enjoy it and would love to sing it..

There's no way I could put on a phoney Jamaican accent,
or even singing in my own English accent, go anywhere near the risque race related lyrics in 2018..

Though daresay a minority of ornery anti PC brigade mudcatters probably still would
just out of lefty snowflake baiting devilment...

Subject: RE: UK Folk Revival 2018
From: GUEST,Hootenanny
Date: 09 Sep 18 - 11:30 AM

Dick re your post above

"The downside of the Lomax idea was that young english singers to some extent no longer performed american songs of people like woody guthrie"

They certainly did perform the songs of Woody and others at THE BALLADS & BLUES CLUB both pre and post MacColl's departure. Some even sang English, Irish and Scottish material. I am sure it was so in many other clubs, probably still is. I still sing songs that I learnt from Alan Lomax.

Subject: RE: UK Folk Revival 2018
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 09 Sep 18 - 11:13 AM

It was an easy process to rob a provincial kid of his/her regional identity...

As a boy I had the same west country accent as my dad, and everyone else on the estate...

But my mum, an outsider war evacuee from the midlands, had higher aspirations
and kept nagging me to stop saying words like "gurt" and to talk 'properly'...

Then Grammar school gradually turned me, without realising it,
into a correct little gentleman talking like a BBC news reader..

I now sound rubbish if I try to imitate the accent I was born with - just unable to do it..

Subject: RE: UK Folk Revival 2018
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Sep 18 - 08:19 AM

"I am sure I have heard MacColl singing in an Irish accent"
He did - sixty-odd years ago he recorded Rocky Road to Dublin
Hope nobody ever remembers what I was doing that far back

I found Ewan's BBC voice on The Song Carriers a little excruciating at times - he was previously an actor and found it necessary to be adept in many accents - Theatre Workshop provided training for that sort of thing
Harry H Corbett (Steptoe) could speak with a plum in his mouth with the best of them, as could the landlady of The Vic, Barbara Windsor, when she put her mind to it
Jim

Subject: RE: UK Folk Revival 2018
From: GUEST,guessed
Date: 09 Sep 18 - 08:16 AM

And if you listen to the first episode of the Song Carriers, to just the start, you may find yourself thinking, "The Spanish came up with that magnificent sound, and we have Walter Pardon."

Subject: RE: UK Folk Revival 2018
From: GUEST,guessed
Date: 09 Sep 18 - 08:10 AM

I am sure I have heard MacColl singing in an Irish accent.

My problem is with MacColl's speaking voice, as exemplified on the tapes of the critics group and on the 'Song Carriers'. He sounds like somebody who took elocution lessons from a member of the upper class mid 20th century, a sort of almost but not quite 'BBC English', the sort in which a 'creche' is a car accident in Knightsbridge. He certainly did not learn to speak like that on the streets of Salford. 'Seeoot' not suit etc.

Yet this was an era in which people were beginning to object to the marginalisation of Northern accents and voices. But MacColl chose to go with the tones of the establishment.

Subject: RE: UK Folk Revival 2018
From: The Sandman
Date: 09 Sep 18 - 07:49 AM

The downside of the Lomax idea was that young english singers to some extent no longer performed american songs of people like woody guthrie

Subject: RE: UK Folk Revival 2018
From: GUEST,jm bainbridge
Date: 08 Sep 18 - 01:15 PM

Re singing in different accents, I've lived in Ireland and sung songs here for 20 years, on & off. Often Irish or American songs, but have never disguised my Geordie accent.

The only time I do that is when I occasionally sing a Geordie one & soften it a little rather than not be understood at all, or worse still have to explain it in advance- not appropriate in a pub setting, IMHO.

Subject: RE: UK Folk Revival 2018
From: The Sandman
Date: 08 Sep 18 - 04:06 AM

thanks for the info, jim

Subject: RE: UK Folk Revival 2018
From: Will Fly
Date: 08 Sep 18 - 03:49 AM

The question of singing accents has arisen many times here before, and poses some interesting questions.

If you sing in a foreign language - simply because those songs appeal to you musically - it would be surely be very silly not to sing them without attempting the appropriate accent and pronunciation. I happen to love singing some French songs from the 1930s so, when I sing them, I try to do it correctly. French listeners will undoubtedly recognise that my French is occasionally oddly accented (though I have been complimented on my performances). As I recall, Petula Clark had a French song repertoire - married to a Frenchman - and was extremely popular in France, perhaps because of, not in spite of, the "Englishness" in her promunciation.

Now, if you as a singer, are drawn to a songs from a particular culture or country, then in my view that should be the aim - to make those songs sound as naturally from that culture as possible. The problem obviously arises with the UK/US song axis because most people don't assume that UK English and US English can be considered as different languages. To me, singing an American song without inflections that don't nod to its American-ness is foolish. The alternative, to some of the Pronunciation Police, is not to sing these songs at all. But why not? If a song grabs you, sing it.

Subject: RE: UK Folk Revival 2018
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Sep 18 - 08:15 PM

"What is wrong with you lot? "
Apologies - on my part
A knee-jerk response to what I consider uncalled-far bad manners
I'm quite enjoying this discussion
"for the direction of the UK FOLK REVIVAL in the late 1960s?"
Not completely Dick, but he did help instigate the BBC collecting campaign and suggested that British singers used it as a source for their material
I was at the symposium for MacColl's 70th and sat in on the public dise#cussiion between Ewan and Lomax
It was obvious that they had anormous respect for each other - quite rightly IMO
Jim

Subject: RE: UK Folk Revival 2018
From: GUEST,Cj
Date: 07 Sep 18 - 07:52 PM

Thanks Jim,I appreciate the detailed response.

I've never had a problem with folk singing in their own accent. The opposite for me, I cannot stand Americanisms or Oirish etc. I find they're faintly ridiculous and detract from the song. Hence my take on EM's Scots vocal. But I can see where you're coming from re his parents and the rest.

Subject: RE: UK Folk Revival 2018
From: GUEST,Joe G
Date: 07 Sep 18 - 04:14 PM

What is wrong with you lot? Can't you just have a civil discussion? It's no wonder so many people have abandoned Mudcat

Subject: RE: UK Folk Revival 2018
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Sep 18 - 03:29 PM

"Let's not stoop to using the same techniques."
Squalid as ever Vic
I've come to expect nothing else sadly
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: UK Folk Revival 2018
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Sep 18 - 03:22 PM

From Vic - still in Corsica
To be fair, Dick, that is not what he said. People jump on him when he twists others' words. Let's not stoop to using the same techniques.

Subject: RE: UK Folk Revival 2018
From: The Sandman
Date: 07 Sep 18 - 02:22 PM

So Alan Lomax was responsible for the direction of the UK FOLK REVIVAL in the late 1960s?

Subject: RE: UK Folk Revival 2018
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Sep 18 - 12:52 PM

"As you're well aware, a of people, myself included, have issues with EM's Scottish accent."
No problem
I've never heard to many people mention Ewan's Scottish accent within the Critics'Singers Club circle
At that time many people were inging in a whole variety of accents - American, Mummerset - 'Oirish' Mock-Scots'...
Let's face it, most of us were townies singing country songs
There's a myth that Ewan insisted you only sang in your own accent - he lived in London and sang Scots songs - Peggy sang songs from every corner of the U.S. ... they would be daft to have insisted on something they didn't do
The idea of singing songs from your own national cultures came from Alan Lomax, who visted Britain and found everybody (including Ewan and Bert) trying to soun#d like Guthrie or Leadbelly
He accused them of neglecting their own national cultures and they fell into line

Ewan was born of Scottish parents who lived among other Scots families in Salford and took in Scottish lodgers - he would would guess have has a Salford/Scottish accent as a child
When I moved to London he and Peggy gave me a bed for a month and I spent a great deal of time taking to Ewan's mother, Betsy, who lived with them - I quite often had problems understanding the conversation when we gathered together for meals - Ewan lapsed into the accent he grew up with
I come from Liverpool and have been away for over half a century, yet when I talk to family members I slip back into a broad Liverpool accent (to the great amusement of Pat)
Ewaan learned a number of his songs from his parents, so when he decided to sing publicly, he adopted a deliberately neutral accent in order to put them across to an English audience, pretty much as actors do - as a ballad lover, I'm grateful he did
I'm not a Scot, but I've never had any trouble understanding his songs

The Critics Group was set up at the request of a number of singers who weren't happy with what was happy with the club scene
They asked Ewan to hold classes - he refused and instead, evolved a method whereby the members worked on each others singing
Someone would give a performance of say 3 - 4- 5... however many songs, the group would comment on the performance, what worked, what didn't.. and how they singing could be improved
A decision would be reached mutually which particular aspect of the singing might be worked on by members throwing in suggestions, suggestions would be tried and the singer would go off and decide what worked for him/her
Usually, they were asked to bring the song back several weeks later to see whether further work was needed
The system ascertained that everybody in attendance benefited by being required to take part - it worked, often brilliantly

One of the things I took away from the group is that, despite any other problems I may have had, I have never - ever - felt nervous singing in from#nt of an audience.

Ewan also developed a series of singing, voice, relaxation and breathing exercises to develop and expand the voice still work for me nearly half a century later
Most of the meetings were recorded - I have copies here
Jim

Subject: RE: UK Folk Revival 2018
From: GUEST,Joe G
Date: 07 Sep 18 - 12:39 PM

Actually Disgusted Mozart may well be considered as classical but most Beethoven would be more accurately named as Romantic. Sibelius & Mahler late romantic, Stavinsky neo classical, Schoenberg serial, John Adams Minimalist but most people call this classical ( the only genre of those I have listed that I don't enjoy). I have the sense to be able to choose between the sub genres so why can't died in the wool folkies do the same with folk?

Subject: RE: UK Folk Revival 2018
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 07 Sep 18 - 11:37 AM

funkyolkpicker - allow me to help you with your new name...

"The Funkyeggpicklers" sounds more like a shite festival blues jam band...

Subject: RE: UK Folk Revival 2018
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 07 Sep 18 - 11:33 AM

Errrmm... I never mentioned Cliff...???

Btw.. I got a biology O level - I know definitions can come in handy sometimes...

Subject: RE: UK Folk Revival 2018
From: GUEST,funkyolkpicker
Date: 07 Sep 18 - 11:15 AM

PFR,
Cliff Richard is not jazz, Cliff is not blues.
Neither would I expect a Cliff fan to sit through Blues. there has to be definitions because it is impossible to please everybody, so people have to have some idea of what music is on offer and expect to get what is advertised.

Subject: RE: UK Folk Revival 2018
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 07 Sep 18 - 10:53 AM

errr... on closer scrutiny that wiki has neglected to mention 'boring blues' and 'crap blues'..

..very popular sub genres jammed by smug tedious wannabes of all ages
at pubs and social gatherings wherever duller musicians gather...

Subject: RE: UK Folk Revival 2018
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 07 Sep 18 - 10:43 AM

I'll have some of that...

Subject: RE: UK Folk Revival 2018
From: GUEST,Wiki information about Blues
Date: 07 Sep 18 - 10:36 AM

Blues
Stylistic origins        
Work songs spirituals folk music[1]
Cultural origins        Late 19th century, Deep South, United States
Typical instruments        
Guitar piano harmonica bass drums blues harp slide guitar xylophone
Derivative forms        
Bluegrass jazz jug band ragtime rock and roll country
Subgenres
Boogie-woogie classic female blues country blues electric blues jump blues piano blues
(complete list)
Fusion genres
Blues rock gospel blues punk blues rhythm and blues soul blues
Regional scenes
British blues Canadian blues Chicago blues Delta blues Detroit blues hill country blues Kansas City blues Louisiana blues Memphis blues New Orleans blues Piedmont blues St. Louis blues swamp blues Texas blues West Coast blues
Other topics
List of genres list of musicians list of standards origins

Blues is a music genre and musical form originated by African Americans in the Deep South of the United States around the end of the 19th century. The genre developed from roots in African musical traditions, African-American work songs, and spirituals Blues incorporated spirituals, work songs, field hollers, shouts, chants, and rhymed simple narrative ballads. The blues form, ubiquitous in jazz, rhythm and blues and rock and roll, is characterized by the call-and-response pattern, the blues scale and specific chord progressions, of which the twelve-bar blues is the most common. Blue notes (or "worried notes"), usually thirds or fifths flattened in pitch, are also an essential part of the sound. Blues shuffles or walking bass reinforce the trance-like rhythm and form a repetitive effect known as the groove.

Blues as a genre is also characterized by its lyrics, bass lines, and instrumentation. Early traditional blues verses consisted of a single line repeated four times. It was only in the first decades of the 20th century that the most common current structure became standard: the AAB pattern, consisting of a line sung over the four first bars, its repetition over the next four, and then a longer concluding line over the last bars. Early blues frequently took the form of a loose narrative, often relating the racial discrimination and other challenges experienced by African-Americans.

Many elements, such as the call-and-response format and the use of blue notes, can be traced back to the music of Africa. The origins of the blues are also closely related to the religious music of the Afro-American community, the spirituals. The first appearance of the blues is often dated to after the ending of slavery and, later, the development of juke joints. It is associated with the newly acquired freedom of the former slaves. Chroniclers began to report about blues music at the dawn of the 20th century. The first publication of blues sheet music was in 1908. Blues has since evolved from unaccompanied vocal music and oral traditions of slaves into a wide variety of styles and subgenres. Blues subgenres include country blues, such as Delta blues and Piedmont blues, as well as urban blues styles such as Chicago blues and West Coast blues. World War II marked the transition from acoustic to electric blues and the progressive opening of blues music to a wider audience, especially white listeners. In the 1960s and 1970s, a hybrid form called blues rock developed, which blended blues styles with rock music.

Subject: RE: UK Folk Revival 2018
From: GUEST,Disgusted
Date: 07 Sep 18 - 10:23 AM

punkfolkrocker   you decide to go to a Jazz Club? Chris Barber is the advertised guest, Cliff Richard walks on stage would you stay and say, jolly good its not Jazz, but I do not care about definitions or trade descriptions, I am going to have an orgasm watching Cliff sing Summer holiday.

Subject: RE: UK Folk Revival 2018
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 07 Sep 18 - 10:07 AM

Disgusted - What an orderly life you must lead...

Shhh.. careful everybody... try not to challenge Disgusted's expectations...

Subject: RE: UK Folk Revival 2018
From: GUEST,Disgusted
Date: 07 Sep 18 - 09:47 AM

Rock and Roll is a derivative of blues.
There is nothing conservative about definitions according to the dictionary, definition can mean the degree of distinctness in outline of an object, image, or sound.
Good enjoyable music frequently falls into a definition, for example Mozart concertos are classified as Classical, Beethoven concertos are classified as Classical, Rock around the Clock is classified as Rock and Roll,Robert Johnson is defined as a Delta Blues singer.
If i want to hear Blues and see it advertised as blues,I do not want to hear a Cliff Richard impersonator, neither do I want to hear a heavy metal band or a rock band like Status Quo.
If I open a can of Tomatoes I do not want to find it contains Corned Beef
If I see punk rock advertised, I do not expect to hear a Country and Irish band or a band doing covers of The Spice Girls.

Subject: RE: UK Folk Revival 2018
From: GUEST,Cj
Date: 07 Sep 18 - 09:41 AM

Jim,

Been meaning to ask this for a while, please don't view it as trolling.

As you're well aware, a of people, myself included, have issues with EM's Scottish accent.

And, a lot of people, and I'm not one of these, have an issue with the Critics Group, which as far as I can gather, was partially in existence for people to comment and criticise other member's singing.

So the question is ~ at such meetings, do you recall anyone ever mentioning EM's Scottish accent, and if so, how did he respond?

I imagine this may open the usual tin of worms, but it's asked in good faith.

Subject: RE: UK Folk Revival 2018
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Sep 18 - 09:29 AM

All music needs defining if we are going to discuss it PFK
The fact that any form of definition was abandoned destroyed an extremely robust folk scene
How about a list of types of music you would expect to hear oat a folk club
If you can make such a list, you are guilty of defining music - bit of a Catch 22 really
Jim

Subject: RE: UK Folk Revival 2018
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 07 Sep 18 - 09:22 AM

..and because good enjoyable music does not always / often fit precisely
within the narrow confines of nice tidy conservative 'definitions'...

Subject: RE: UK Folk Revival 2018
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 07 Sep 18 - 08:58 AM

Dunno, Dick. As I said I am not a blues aficionado but as an example McGuinness Flint's 'When I'm dead and gone' was covered. Tom McGuinness still plays with the Blues Band so there is a tentative connection.

Status Quo play predominatley 12 bar and most (all?) rock and roll is 12 bar so I don't think 12 bar is the main measure of blues.

Subject: RE: UK Folk Revival 2018
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 07 Sep 18 - 08:51 AM

Because over much more than half a century many thousands of pop hits have foundations in blues...

Subject: RE: UK Folk Revival 2018
From: The Sandman
Date: 07 Sep 18 - 07:55 AM

how can blues include pop songs ,ridiculous , generally they have a 12 bar sructure some jazz groups do interesting imporovisation over 12 bars , but if it is called folk and blues that is what it should be

Subject: RE: UK Folk Revival 2018
From: Brian Peters
Date: 04 Sep 18 - 08:12 AM

When I'm talking about people from whom Cecil Sharp notated songs, I probably have sometimes referred to them as 'Sharp's singers'. It's just shorthand - no implication of 'ownership'.

Subject: RE: UK Folk Revival 2018
From: GUEST,guessed
Date: 04 Sep 18 - 06:32 AM

"What are you on?"

PG Tips, as it happens.

A person who claimed to have recorded somebody that it turns out they did not record and who claims that ornamented singing lacks ornamentation doesn't seem to be on strong ground when it comes to the credibility stakes, however long they were involved in the scene.

Subject: RE: UK Folk Revival 2018
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 04 Sep 18 - 06:11 AM

Out of interest I was at the Fleetwood Folk and Blues festival over the weekend. Blues seems suffers from the same phenomenon that people have mentioned about folk on here - IE, some bands are playing covers of pop songs which can be loosely described as blues. I don't really know enough about that genre to know if the aficionados see it as a problem.

I did see some wonderful folk music from both paid artists at concerts and others in both singarounds and music sessions.

Subject: RE: UK Folk Revival 2018
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Sep 18 - 06:07 AM

For the information of anybody interested in digging up corpses
"both are famous for not leaving the CP after the Russian invasion of Hungary."
According to their biographers, MacColl left the Communist Party during the War and never rejoined; The last reference to Lloy'd's being a member was 1948 when he was turned down for a job in Picture Post by Hulton Press
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: UK Folk Revival 2018
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Sep 18 - 05:00 AM

"So in fact you didn't actually 'record' her yourself then?"
For crying out loud - what are you on?

You want to make this a right wing rant - I suggest you open a thread on the other secr#tion
Corpse kicking has become the major sport of folkies who have very little else to offer - especially when their knowledge#dge seldom rises above 'Wiki' level
Over and out (with you at least)
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: UK Folk Revival 2018
From: GUEST,guessed
Date: 03 Sep 18 - 04:52 AM

'I was even lucky enough to be introduced to and record one of Zoltan Kodaly's singers in Hungary - she sang us a Hungarian version of 'The Cruel Mother' (unaccompanied, as it happens)'

So in fact you didn't actually 'record' her yourself then? See, sometimes it is worth asking a question or two.

1968, so a couple of years after you got interested in folk and probably while you were still in the Critics Group run by MacColl. One of the few of that generation who can remember the 60s, and no doubt much the better for it!

We guessed either MacColl or Lloyd might come into the story as both are famous for not leaving the CP after the Russian invasion of Hungary. Assuming Budapest Radio would have been state run.


Wiki says this about Hungarian music at the time:

For the first half of the 20th century, Bartók and Kodály were potent symbols for a generation of composers, especially Kodály. Starting in about 1947, a revival in folk choir music began, ended as an honest force by 1950, when state-run art became dominant with the rise of Communism. Under Communism, "commitment and ideological affiliation (were) measured by the musical style of a composer; the ignominious adjectives 'formalistic' and 'cosmopolitan' gain currency ... (and the proper Hungarian style was) identified with the major mode, the classical aria, rondo or sonata form, the chord sequences distilled" from Kodály's works.

Subject: RE: UK Folk Revival 2018
From: GUEST,guessed
Date: 03 Sep 18 - 04:15 AM

Thanks for the account. As for 'making a thing', come on, Jim, you 'make a thing' out of err, things, yourself. Frequently. Love the witty sarcasm on the topic, and so early in the day, too!

Subject: RE: UK Folk Revival 2018
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Sep 18 - 04:01 AM

Sould read
" (please don't be silly) and brought their (yes - I think they did own it!) recording equipment