 sj |
||
|
||
UK Folk Revival 2018
|
|
|
Subject: RE: UK Folk Revival 2018 From: punkfolkrocker Date: 22 Aug 18 - 01:52 PM Observer - are you certain you are not Keith...??? So... sitting on the bog ruminating... I now recall a band from my mid 1970s teens.. Hedgehog Pie but I can't remember where I would have heard them... John Peel..??? I'm fairly sure I never bought any of their LPs, because the town record shop, and Woolworths carried very limited stock .. the Library had an extensive shelf of Topic LPs, but not much recent folk. Brenda Wooton was popular, I think she was on our local telly a fair bit. Saw her live in concert... Really difficult finding her tracks online for a reminder... I'm off to google any Hedgehog Pie... |
|
Subject: RE: UK Folk Revival 2018 From: GUEST,jag Date: 22 Aug 18 - 01:34 PM How has the number of people, age profile and tradiotionalness of material at festival pub sessions and singarounds changed over the years? What people do, rather than what they pay to listen to. |
|
Subject: RE: UK Folk Revival 2018 From: GUEST,Observer Date: 22 Aug 18 - 01:32 PM What a pity pfr that you cannot provide any examples of this. But let us look at what you've said: I get a distict whiff of you dictating your tastes and opinions more loudly than others here... You might not exactly be saying right now "I order you to comply with my views on folk" .. but we certainly get a sense you would if you could... Have a quick count of relative number of posts to this thread and you will see very clearly who's pushing their opinions more loudly than others This 252 post thread. You pfr have posted 36 times whereas I have only posted 21 times. As to the forum your 3535 posts to my 351. By the way pfr who is the "we" you are referring to in what I suppose passes for that last sentence quoted above?
|
|
Subject: RE: UK Folk Revival 2018 From: Dave the Gnome Date: 22 Aug 18 - 01:03 PM It isn't taken as read by all, Matt. I have reservations and, as I have highlighted, the number of festivals does not seem to be declining as stated at all. Near me (Airedale) there is plenty going on. Whether everyone would class it as folk is another question. |
|
Subject: RE: UK Folk Revival 2018 From: GUEST,MATT MILTON Date: 22 Aug 18 - 12:34 PM Interesting that it's taken as read, as a given, as undisputed truth, by so many posts in this thread that folk clubs are dying. In London I have plenty of folk clubs to attend. The Goose Is Out, Bermondsey Folk Club, Cellar Upstairs, Walthamstow, Musical Traditions, Croydon, among others... You will hear traditional folk songs at all of them. They are in general well attended. Yes, most of the audience is 60+ but it's folk music, what do you expect... there is a smattering of younger people. |
|
Subject: RE: UK Folk Revival 2018 From: punkfolkrocker Date: 22 Aug 18 - 12:20 PM I've heard a fair bit of mudcatian arse singing... |
|
Subject: RE: UK Folk Revival 2018 From: The Sandman Date: 22 Aug 18 - 12:15 PM Idont know about monglian nose flute players ,but i have heard some wonderful bulgarian throat singing |
|
Subject: RE: UK Folk Revival 2018 From: GUEST,Pseudonymous Date: 22 Aug 18 - 12:02 PM Wot Punk Rocker said. :) |
|
Subject: RE: UK Folk Revival 2018 From: punkfolkrocker Date: 22 Aug 18 - 11:15 AM Observer - can't speak for anyone else, but I get a distict whiff of you dictating your tastes and opinions more loudly than others here... You might not exactly be saying right now "I order you to comply with my views on folk" .. but we certainly get a sense you would if you could... We bow to you oh mighty opinion leader.... |
|
Subject: RE: UK Folk Revival 2018 From: Vic Smith Date: 22 Aug 18 - 11:07 AM Vic Smith, the magazine you recommend for our reading started off as The Southern Rag, then became Folk Roots and then became fRoots. There is a progression there for all to see, when does it just become Roots? I am aware of the sequence of names. I have every issue in sequence on a book shelf by my computer and find it a consistently useful research tool - especially as the magazine has a alphabetic list of features from all its 418 issues in its website. May I politely suggest to the Observer that he does some observing? The current direction of the magazine has the British folk music as its core and always has done, Articles in the current issue include musings on the Folk Awards, on Katy Spicer CEO of the EFDSS. Articles on interesting folk newcomers Thom Ashcroft and Nick Hart, the folk dance band Banter, Rowan Rheingans, Jim Moray's new folk-rock band False Lights, Martin Hayes and The Gloaming, A look back at Dobells and other folk records shops from the 1960s, a retrospective on Buffy St, Marie, Cath & Phil Tyler, as well as a massive inclusive list of the UK's folk festivals with all the contact details. Name me a British magazine that has a wider coverage of folk music. What the magazine does not believe - and I am fully agree with its policy - is that folk and traditional music stops at Dover. I often despair of the Brexity Little Englander views that I see expressed by this country's Mudcatters. Some years ago, I was depressed to read on this board that he didn't read fRoots any more because it was "full on Mongolian Nose Flute players." No, this was not Boris Johnson, but someone who has contributed to this thread. |
|
Subject: RE: UK Folk Revival 2018 From: punkfolkrocker Date: 22 Aug 18 - 11:06 AM I have vague memories of buying Bob Pegg & Nick Strutt LPs when I was 15 or 16.. and that'd be after mainstream chart band Lindisfarne hooked us teens into folk... In fact Lindisfarne splinter group Jack The Lad were as important an influence as Wilko era Dr Feelgood... ..probably not 'folk' enough though.. eh...??? Sod the old miseries... In 1975 Jack the Lad were in my estimation a crucial proto punk band, and definitely one of the earliest 'punk folk' bands... They were youngish folkies who were aggressive and exciting in concert... an antidote to the usual run-of-the-mill insipid folkies we saw on the telly... |
|
Subject: RE: UK Folk Revival 2018 From: GUEST,Pseudonymous Date: 22 Aug 18 - 11:03 AM Thank you. This thread is providing some useful suggested listening/show going. :) |
|
Subject: RE: UK Folk Revival 2018 From: GUEST,Observer Date: 22 Aug 18 - 11:00 AM a tendency to assert that people are making claims that nobody appears to be making Interesting Psued but this is what GUEST, Voices of the people did write: I refuse to put up with any high and mighty self-appointed critics dictating what music I should or shouldn't be listening to Having read that, or better still GUEST, Voices of the people's entire post, are you honestly trying to tell us that he was not complaining about being DICTATED to? Good luck with that, but that dog won't hunt. Use of Italics are a very good way of highlighting what words are not my own. |
|
Subject: RE: UK Folk Revival 2018 From: Dave the Gnome Date: 22 Aug 18 - 10:59 AM We saw Bellowhead in Grassington on their final tour. Amazing live performance. Support band were Louis Barabbas and the Bedlam Six. Well worth a listen as well. |
|
Subject: RE: UK Folk Revival 2018 From: GUEST,Pseudonymous Date: 22 Aug 18 - 10:58 AM Count Arthur Strong: too much coffee to be articulate today. I have an Oyster Band LP somewhere (bought at some folk do decades ago). That's fun. |
|
Subject: RE: UK Folk Revival 2018 From: Dave the Gnome Date: 22 Aug 18 - 10:56 AM Of course I did :-) Tull, Fairport, Steeleye, Mr Fox. You name 'em, I like 'em. Even been known to listen to Pentangle and Magna Carta occasionally :-D |
|
Subject: RE: UK Folk Revival 2018 From: GUEST,Pseudonymous Date: 22 Aug 18 - 10:55 AM And I am afraid I got to Bellowhead (mentioned above in this thread) via the theme music to the TV show Count Arthur Clark, which I liked because of its rhythms and quirkiness. I'm still annoyed I can't find it on iTunes. |
|
Subject: RE: UK Folk Revival 2018 From: GUEST,Pseudonymous Date: 22 Aug 18 - 10:49 AM Hello Dave The context and tone were different. :) Don't suppose you liked 'Liege and Lief' as well? |
|
Subject: RE: UK Folk Revival 2018 From: Dave the Gnome Date: 22 Aug 18 - 10:35 AM Sorry Pseudonymous. I used caps in my reply to you as well. I probably started a trend ;-) |
|
Subject: RE: UK Folk Revival 2018 From: Vic Smith Date: 22 Aug 18 - 10:33 AM Al Whittle wrote - Froots in a way is rather like Sidmouth thirty or forty years ago. Very international minded. Reliant on record company adverts and the like. OK let's test this claim against the facts:- Number of pages in current fRoots (No. 418) - 148 pages Number of adverts taken by record companies - 1 page (inside cover for World Circuit Records) (There is one other that I happen to know is a freebie for a small company devoted to specialist British traditional releases) Number of pages of current album reviews - 17 pages (Is the editor mad to devote so much space to an industry that gives him minimal support or is he just trying to keep his readers informed?) Number of pages of adverts for folk music festivals/clubs/tours - 25 pages Number of pages of adverts for world music events/festivals - 3 pages If we don't have some relationship between claims and facts, I'll have to get my friend in the White House to make another FAKE NOOS tweet! |
|
Subject: RE: UK Folk Revival 2018 From: GUEST,Pseudonymous Date: 22 Aug 18 - 10:29 AM Guest, 10.05 am. I suspect that you might get on quite well with Jim Carroll as you appear to share a tendency to assert that people are making claims that nobody appears to be making as a way of (I suppose) trying to advance your own position. The rather 'emotional' use of italics and block capitals suggest a shared sensibility/temperament. |
|
Subject: RE: UK Folk Revival 2018 From: Dave the Gnome Date: 22 Aug 18 - 10:21 AM Results of my Google searches. UK folk festivals 2017 - About 31,000,000 results (0.67 seconds) UK folk festivals 2007 - About 14,100,000 results (0.71 seconds) UK folk festivals 1997 - About 7,200,000 results (0.75 seconds) As I said earlier, unscientific. But it matters not as we have already shown that on the database of http://ukfolkfestivals.co.uk there are 100 more festivals in England today than there was in 2010. A bit different to your bold statement that Folk Festivals are disappearing. If you can find something factual to back up that the general trend is a reduction in the number of Folk Festivals I am willing to listen. |
|
Subject: RE: UK Folk Revival 2018 From: GUEST,Observer Date: 22 Aug 18 - 10:14 AM GUEST,For DtG, Date: 22 Aug 18 - 09:26 AM, I had a quick look at your link. Rather a misrepresentation as they list festivals NOT specifically Folk Festivals. A number of them in places I know have got no musical dimension to them at all. |
|
Subject: RE: UK Folk Revival 2018 From: GUEST,Observer Date: 22 Aug 18 - 10:05 AM UK folk festivals 2017 - on Google gives 5,420,000 results UK folk festivals 2007 - on Google gives 46,900,000 results UK folk festivals 1997 - on Google gives 43,700,000 results IF the above are of any significance at all, then there is a marked and sharp decline from 2013 onward (2014 - 38,300,000: 2015 - 20,400,000 & 2016 - 7,820,000). GUEST, Voices of the future: No one is TELLING you to do anything, neither are they DICTATING anything to anyone. No-one is insulting the current generation's legitimacy and value as creative artists. What is in dispute is whether or not there is any legitimacy in the claim, by others, that they are folk artists. You ask, "How dare they consider themselves to have such superior taste and judgement". Possibly because THEY, and Jim Carroll in particular, have spent decades, researching, collecting and participating in the folk music of the British Isles and object quite rightly to just any modern popular music genres being "lumped into" folk music as a catch all. Quite a number of bands have been mentioned in this thread as examples. It is worthwhile taking a look at how those bands describe themselves - FOLK is not the first thing that you see when they themselves describe what music they play. Folk does get a mention as a guiding influence and source of inspiration. THAT does not make them folk artists and who books them to play where is totally irrelevant. Vic Smith, the magazine you recommend for our reading started off as The Southern Rag, then became Folk Roots and then became fRoots. There is a progression there for all to see, when does it just become Roots? |
|
Subject: RE: UK Folk Revival 2018 From: Dave the Gnome Date: 22 Aug 18 - 10:04 AM What do you mean they WERE good fun, Pseudonymous? They still ARE :-) |
|
Subject: RE: UK Folk Revival 2018 From: GUEST,Hootenanny Date: 22 Aug 18 - 09:56 AM From Jim Carroll; "I buggered off the scene fifty years ago" In which case what qualifies you to cast judgement on what is current? I asked a similar question of you some years ago on another thread when you admitted that your knowledge of a particular happening in a club some six years or so before you were on the scene was not from being there but knowing someone who was. Is this a similar situation? "Since I came to this music it has been an unspoken convention that you do not attack our traditional singers (our benefactors), not in public and certainly not when they are dead" Sounds like it is yet more from your own fertile imagination. |
|
Subject: RE: UK Folk Revival 2018 From: GUEST,Pseudonymous Date: 22 Aug 18 - 09:55 AM "I can think of no better way to put young people off folk for life than to play them Walter Pardon singing Cupid the Ploughboy." Jim Carroll has been 'throwing his toys out of the pram' about this on another thread. Sometimes I worry about his blood pressure: all this high dudgeon and anger (as it appears to be from his posts) cannot be good for him. It isn't good for anyone. And it isn't going to persuade anybody to listen to or enjoy Pardon or to go to a traditional club. It seems to me more likely to put people off. Cupid the Ploughboy was the first Pardon song I listened to, chosen at random from the selection available free on Spotify. I have to say that I didn't like it, and judging from what I know about the musical tastes of most young people, few of them would. So that is why I made the comment I did. And I think I should be permitted to make an honest comment to that effect without being harangued in an unpleasant manner. If there are young people happy to sing such songs in such a style then fine, though I am suspecting that these youngsters may be a fairly middle class lot. Not that there is anything wrong with being middle class. But it isn't for me. I find the lyrics peculiar. The idea of a ploughboy named after a classical god striking me as strange and unlikely. I don't like the tune, especially as the difficulty of singing it after what, for the sake of simplicity, I will call a 'key change' towards the end apparently results in Pardon starting the second verse on a different note from the one used in starting the first verse. It has no rhythm. There is no sense of natural speech patterns in the way the words are 'sung', in the sense that emphasis is put on unexpected words. You can tell that the singer is elderly, it seems to me. None of this, I feel, is likely to appeal to the young of today's ethnically diverse UK. Nor would being expected to treat either singer or song with some sort of quasi-religious reverence be much of an encouragment. Hands off Jethro Tull! They were good fun:) |
|
Subject: RE: UK Folk Revival 2018 From: Dave the Gnome Date: 22 Aug 18 - 09:54 AM That is very useful. Thanks Jon. Earliest picture - 31 July 2010 - 132 Folk Festivals in England on the database. Latest picture - 232 Folk Festivals in England on the database. Even allowing for what Jon points out and the the picture being blurred by some not being removed etc., I think that pretty much puts that one to bed. |
|
Subject: RE: UK Folk Revival 2018 From: GUEST,Jon Date: 22 Aug 18 - 09:45 AM You could try this Dave. It only goes back as far as 2010. It's possible more festivals got added as the site got better known and, if it's anything like folk club listings, people tend to be better at getting new events added than closed ones removed but it might still give a reasonable picture... |
|
Subject: RE: UK Folk Revival 2018 From: Big Al Whittle Date: 22 Aug 18 - 09:41 AM yes its puzzling. weymouth folk club will be on tonight , as it is every wednesdays at The Sailors Return down by the harbour at Weymouth. Get there after 8pm, you'll be lucky to get a seat -unless they recognise you as a singer - then a seat will be passed over the heads of those present for you. All kinds of music is welcomed - beginners get a warm welcome. The Weymouth Folk Festival is in June and the streets round the harbour are thronged with dancers and there two performance stages. If you say there's a decline, I suppose there must be. What is it that's supposed to have declined. Things have changed - that I will grant you. Sidmouth used to be far more international than it is now. There less gigs in folk clubs for professional singers. On the other hand - there are far more live music/acoustic music gigs in pubs than ever before. So actually more professional folk/acoustic musicians. Froots in a way is rather like Sidmouth thirty or forty years ago. Very international minded. Reliant on record company adverts and the like. So it promotes what it promotes - but it doesn't really reflect the clubs or the festivals. That's not to say it's wrong. Just that its a bit disassociated with the groundswell of folk music activity. |
|
Subject: RE: UK Folk Revival 2018 From: Dave the Gnome Date: 22 Aug 18 - 09:32 AM Thanks Guest. I had seen that and it looks very healthy. It would be nice if we could compare it to the picture 10 years ago. |
|
Subject: RE: UK Folk Revival 2018 From: GUEST,For DtG Date: 22 Aug 18 - 09:26 AM UK Folkk festivals I think this gives a reasonable picture for 2018 for the UK not perfect but a reasonable approximation (too many variables in the "hits) |
|
Subject: RE: UK Folk Revival 2018 From: GUEST,Voices of the future Date: 22 Aug 18 - 09:21 AM All very interesting, but I refuse to put up with any high and mighty self-appointed critics dictating what music I should or shouldn't be listening to; or insulting our generation's legitimacy and value as creative folk artists. How dare they consider themselves to have such superior taste and judgement, that they can dismiss and disparage all performers who do not conform to their fusty puritanical spartan aesthetics. Especially when they are so obviously clueless about the modern popular music genres they are so sneeringly handing down judgement on. |
|
Subject: RE: UK Folk Revival 2018 From: Dave the Gnome Date: 22 Aug 18 - 08:35 AM Just out of interest and very unscientific I did a search on 'uk folk festivals 2017' and it returned 30 million results. The search for 'uk folk festivals 2007' returned 13 million. Not sure what that tells us :-) |
|
Subject: RE: UK Folk Revival 2018 From: Dave the Gnome Date: 22 Aug 18 - 08:31 AM I accept that things called folk clubs are in decline but they are not disappearing. They are simply morphing into other things. Be that music sessions, open mic nights or folk music at other venues. I am not sure about festivals. Does anyone have some hard facts about this? How many festivals were there in 2017 as opposed to 2007 for instance? Are you allowing for folk music being played at other festivals? I know that Glastonbury has some good folk music on because a friend of mine performs folk music there with his band. Just because a couple of festivals have made the news by folding does not mean there is a general decline. I am sorry for those who feel that they have lost something. My folk cup is overflowing but unfortunately, try as I may, I cannot seem to share any of it. |
|
Subject: RE: UK Folk Revival 2018 From: GUEST,guest Date: 22 Aug 18 - 08:27 AM "That night taught me what Folk Music is, the power it has to make people rediscover lost emotions." Folk music? ALL music for God's sake!!!! |
|
Subject: RE: UK Folk Revival 2018 From: GUEST,akenaton Date: 22 Aug 18 - 08:19 AM My objection to modern "folk music" loosely based on the tradition is that it is so bloody boring, the emotion lost, the story lost, participation discouraged. Modern "Folk Music" has become simply a gilded frame within which young and not so young wannabee's exhibit their just about average musical skills. To some this may be "clever" and designed to attract an audience who's knowledge has been honed on "Big Brother", "Love Island and Facebook; but oh how I long to hear a singer who really feels what the song or tune is all about and can transmit that feeling to an audience who are receptive and capable of absorption. In my youth I was a fan of beat music and dancing, when purely by chance I dropped into a little hotel on my way to the Saturday dance. In the lounge I sat with a pint to listen to a few campers who were singing and playing, when they had finished one of their songs, a young lassie came from a dim corner of the room and sat on the arm of my chair......She sang me a song of love and betrayal which touched me deeply and does so to this day. When she finished, no one cheered or whooped, there was complete silence .....we all knew that we had been honoured to have been present and it was not simply a song, but the girl's soul that we heard speak that night. I later found out that the girl had just come back from Ewan MacColl's singers Club.....and she went on to become one of the most respected singers and teachers in Scotland. That night taught me what Folk Music is, the power it has to make people rediscover lost emotions. Absolutely nothing to do with marketing, celebrity, or mass appeal, Folk music is basically a personal thing, some of us unfortunately are unable to respond to anything musical without the armour of virtue signalling. Dilution is a sin. |
|
Subject: RE: UK Folk Revival 2018 From: GUEST,Observer Date: 22 Aug 18 - 08:18 AM Question asked by someone else earlier - "What latest folk revival". Folk Clubs disappearing. Folk Festivals disappearing. |
|
Subject: RE: UK Folk Revival 2018 From: Dave the Gnome Date: 22 Aug 18 - 08:12 AM I used to take it when it was Folk Roots, Vic. If I remember rightly I felt it had lost its way and stopped my subscription years back but I may give it another try. |
|
Subject: RE: UK Folk Revival 2018 From: Vic Smith Date: 22 Aug 18 - 07:57 AM You might even take up reading fRoots! |
|
Subject: RE: UK Folk Revival 2018 From: Dave the Gnome Date: 22 Aug 18 - 07:06 AM I'll look them up. This is what a folk forum should be for :-) Maybe the expansion of awareness brought on by the internet globalising music has a bearing on the latest folk revival? |
|
Subject: RE: UK Folk Revival 2018 From: GUEST,JoeG Date: 22 Aug 18 - 06:57 AM Spot on Al I'll check out Hanggai Dave - i quite like a bit of Mongolian folk rock - do you know Huun Huur Tu and Yat Kha? Well worth a listen if not |
|
Subject: RE: UK Folk Revival 2018 From: Big Al Whittle Date: 22 Aug 18 - 06:55 AM In fact my Dad would have said, that's not proper food... |
|
Subject: RE: UK Folk Revival 2018 From: Big Al Whittle Date: 22 Aug 18 - 06:52 AM I went to a Chinese restaurant yesterday. Some people would say its not proper food... |
|
Subject: RE: UK Folk Revival 2018 From: Dave the Gnome Date: 22 Aug 18 - 06:30 AM My lad came across a Mongolian Folk Rock band called Hanggai and put me on to them. Well worth a listen. Of course some would say it is not folk ;-) |
|
Subject: RE: UK Folk Revival 2018 From: Big Al Whittle Date: 22 Aug 18 - 06:30 AM You say you're not disparaging Jim. But you say that you know what the folk culture of our islands is, and all these other people (many of us having spent a lifetime in folk clubs) know nowt. Its so dismissive. So negative. If the music you love has such inherent strengths (and I believe it does). It really does not gain from shit slinging like this. In fact, it detracts - and sends out ALL the wrong messages. History will decide what is our folksong. You are not the arbiter in this matter, Neither is some bloody silly 1954 committee of interested parties. |
|
Subject: RE: UK Folk Revival 2018 From: GUEST,Joe G Date: 22 Aug 18 - 06:20 AM Yes that is very true. A friend who thought he didn't like folk came across the band Talisk on Spotify and is now exploring the vast quantity of folk on the platform. Not sure if he will reach Walter but you never know! |
|
Subject: RE: UK Folk Revival 2018 From: Dave the Gnome Date: 22 Aug 18 - 06:10 AM The start of my slippery slope to folk Music was Jethro Tull :-) Nowadays the slide is even easier. If you listen to something on Spotify or any of the popular music streaming sites you get suggestions for what you may like. Someone listening to Bellowhead or Mumford and Sons is likely to be sent on a voyage of discovery that could well end at Walter Pardon! |
|
Subject: RE: UK Folk Revival 2018 From: GUEST,Joe G Date: 22 Aug 18 - 06:05 AM I disagree with your first comment Jim. Introducing someone to folk music via a band like, for example, Bellowhead, doesn't mean that they will never get to enjoy more traditionally presented material. When I got into classical music I didn't start with the 'hard stuff' like chamber music I worked my way in via Johann Strauss and Tchaikovsky with their big tunes. |
|
Subject: RE: UK Folk Revival 2018 From: Jim Carroll Date: 22 Aug 18 - 05:31 AM "but there is truth in the comment made" THere - it's catching The worst you can do with anything is to pretend it is something else leaving people to find out it wasn't what you told them it was I wes lucky to find that out before I buggered off the scene fifty years ago We came to the music because we liked it for what it was - any foundation we build for it has to be based on that "Jim. Is criticism of the song permitted?" Of course it is, but not in terms of criticising the singer, which is what you have done here I've just made my point about this behavior and it's consequences on the 'Roud book' thread I'm off for some fresh air Jim |
| Share Thread: |