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BS: UK party conferences

Keith A of Hertford 29 Aug 18 - 05:02 AM
Keith A of Hertford 30 Aug 18 - 12:30 PM
Steve Shaw 30 Aug 18 - 12:51 PM
punkfolkrocker 30 Aug 18 - 01:22 PM
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Keith A of Hertford 31 Aug 18 - 05:07 AM
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peteglasgow 02 Sep 18 - 04:50 AM
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peteglasgow 02 Sep 18 - 05:29 AM
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Big Al Whittle 02 Sep 18 - 05:54 AM
punkfolkrocker 02 Sep 18 - 06:06 AM
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Raggytash 02 Sep 18 - 09:01 AM
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Jim Carroll 02 Sep 18 - 11:09 AM
Keith A of Hertford 02 Sep 18 - 11:22 AM
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Keith A of Hertford 02 Sep 18 - 11:59 AM
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Little Hawk 02 Sep 18 - 01:38 PM
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Backwoodsman 02 Sep 18 - 01:55 PM
Keith A of Hertford 02 Sep 18 - 02:45 PM
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punkfolkrocker 03 Sep 18 - 04:33 AM
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Keith A of Hertford 03 Sep 18 - 05:29 AM
Steve Shaw 03 Sep 18 - 05:59 AM
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punkfolkrocker 03 Sep 18 - 06:02 AM
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Keith A of Hertford 03 Sep 18 - 06:37 AM
Jim Carroll 03 Sep 18 - 06:45 AM
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punkfolkrocker 03 Sep 18 - 07:02 AM
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Dave the Gnome 03 Sep 18 - 04:38 PM
Keith A of Hertford 04 Sep 18 - 04:03 AM
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punkfolkrocker 04 Sep 18 - 05:05 AM
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Keith A of Hertford 04 Sep 18 - 09:47 AM
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Keith A of Hertford 23 Sep 18 - 11:40 AM
peteglasgow 23 Sep 18 - 05:24 PM
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Backwoodsman 24 Sep 18 - 03:15 AM
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Big Al Whittle 26 Sep 18 - 07:39 AM
David Carter (UK) 26 Sep 18 - 08:06 AM
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Big Al Whittle 27 Sep 18 - 02:43 AM
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Iains 27 Sep 18 - 02:48 AM
Steve Shaw 27 Sep 18 - 02:50 AM
Jim Carroll 27 Sep 18 - 04:17 AM
Iains 27 Sep 18 - 04:27 AM
DMcG 27 Sep 18 - 05:37 AM
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Steve Shaw 27 Sep 18 - 05:58 AM
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Jim Carroll 27 Sep 18 - 09:15 AM
Backwoodsman 27 Sep 18 - 09:54 AM
Keith A of Hertford 27 Sep 18 - 10:07 AM
Jim Carroll 27 Sep 18 - 12:49 PM
Jim Carroll 27 Sep 18 - 12:55 PM
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Dave the Gnome 27 Sep 18 - 03:32 PM
Jim Carroll 27 Sep 18 - 03:49 PM
Iains 29 Sep 18 - 05:08 AM
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Jim Carroll 29 Sep 18 - 05:53 AM
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Iains 29 Sep 18 - 06:29 AM
Jim Carroll 29 Sep 18 - 07:28 AM
Jim Carroll 29 Sep 18 - 07:39 AM
Big Al Whittle 29 Sep 18 - 12:13 PM
Jim Carroll 29 Sep 18 - 12:41 PM
Jim Carroll 29 Sep 18 - 12:41 PM
Backwoodsman 29 Sep 18 - 01:38 PM
Backwoodsman 29 Sep 18 - 01:39 PM
Iains 29 Sep 18 - 02:52 PM
bobad 29 Sep 18 - 04:20 PM
Steve Shaw 30 Sep 18 - 06:34 AM
Steve Shaw 30 Sep 18 - 06:36 AM
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Jim Carroll 30 Sep 18 - 07:35 AM
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Jim Carroll 30 Sep 18 - 08:13 AM
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Backwoodsman 30 Sep 18 - 08:58 AM
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Big Al Whittle 30 Sep 18 - 10:14 AM
Raggytash 30 Sep 18 - 10:28 AM
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Raggytash 30 Sep 18 - 11:22 AM
bobad 30 Sep 18 - 12:22 PM
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Dave the Gnome 30 Sep 18 - 12:51 PM
Backwoodsman 30 Sep 18 - 01:02 PM
Big Al Whittle 30 Sep 18 - 01:14 PM
Jim Carroll 30 Sep 18 - 01:25 PM
Big Al Whittle 30 Sep 18 - 04:03 PM
Jim Carroll 01 Oct 18 - 04:28 AM
Iains 01 Oct 18 - 06:09 AM
Steve Shaw 01 Oct 18 - 06:11 AM
Jim Carroll 01 Oct 18 - 07:09 AM
Iains 01 Oct 18 - 07:14 AM
Jim Carroll 01 Oct 18 - 08:10 AM
Steve Shaw 01 Oct 18 - 08:30 AM
Keith A of Hertford 01 Oct 18 - 09:44 AM
Jim Carroll 01 Oct 18 - 11:43 AM
Jim Carroll 01 Oct 18 - 11:43 AM
Jim Carroll 01 Oct 18 - 11:52 AM
Jim Carroll 01 Oct 18 - 11:56 AM
Backwoodsman 01 Oct 18 - 12:23 PM
Big Al Whittle 01 Oct 18 - 03:24 PM
Raggytash 01 Oct 18 - 05:05 PM
Backwoodsman 01 Oct 18 - 06:27 PM
Jim Carroll 01 Oct 18 - 07:25 PM
bobad 01 Oct 18 - 07:55 PM
Jim Carroll 01 Oct 18 - 08:19 PM
Dave the Gnome 02 Oct 18 - 03:39 AM
Backwoodsman 02 Oct 18 - 04:32 AM
Steve Shaw 02 Oct 18 - 04:57 AM
Steve Shaw 02 Oct 18 - 05:40 AM
Jim Carroll 02 Oct 18 - 05:56 AM
Jim Carroll 02 Oct 18 - 06:13 AM
Big Al Whittle 02 Oct 18 - 08:10 AM
Jim Carroll 02 Oct 18 - 08:12 AM
David Carter (UK) 02 Oct 18 - 08:14 AM
Steve Shaw 02 Oct 18 - 08:22 AM
Jim Carroll 02 Oct 18 - 08:36 AM
Big Al Whittle 02 Oct 18 - 09:48 AM
Jim Carroll 02 Oct 18 - 10:04 AM
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Subject: BS: UK party conferences
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 29 Aug 18 - 05:02 AM

For once these promise to be interesting this year.
The Tories are fatally split over Brexit, and a leadership challenge is almost inevitable.
Labour are fatally split over Corbyn's leadership, and have to decide on accepting the full AS definition while dealing with all the current accusations of AS against Corbyn himself.
The Lib Dems alone will be as boring as ever.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK party conferences
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 Aug 18 - 12:30 PM

Mirror today,
"The leading Leaver (Boris) is expected to use the party's annual gathering in Birmingham to steal the limelight at fringe events packed with adoring Brexit-backing activists."

May still says, “I am in this for the long term.”

Meanwhile Labour Jewish MPs seek bodyguards at their conference, as BBC's Laura Kuenssberg did last year, and Momentum want a motion calling for a second referendum on Brexit which the leadership do not want.

Its going to be good.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK party conferences
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 Aug 18 - 12:51 PM

We know what this is intended to be about. Don't engage.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK party conferences
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 30 Aug 18 - 01:22 PM

Also.. the September Sumo Wrestling Tournament.. soon.. don't forget...


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Subject: RE: BS: UK party conferences
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 Aug 18 - 01:35 PM

And the last night of the Proms...


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Subject: RE: BS: UK party conferences
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 Aug 18 - 01:47 PM

Start threads about those things, but this is about the party conferences.
What is your worry? You can just ridicule the Tory conference if you like.
I intend to have a good laugh at both.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK party conferences
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 30 Aug 18 - 01:49 PM

.. just don't anyone ridicule the Sumo...


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Subject: RE: BS: UK party conferences
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 Aug 18 - 01:50 PM

Even the Lib Dems.
They are hoping to change their rules so a non-MP can be leader.
Otherwise the Field is rather small!


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Subject: RE: BS: UK party conferences
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 30 Aug 18 - 01:58 PM

Composite 3. Subsection A....
I move!


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Subject: RE: BS: UK party conferences
From: peteglasgow
Date: 30 Aug 18 - 02:02 PM

anyone know if there are any motions for debate tabled by tory mps who are furious about the party's racist policy on windrush?

how furious are decent tory mps (yes, i know that is an oxymoron) about the lack of an ethical arms policy and this country's support for a brutal saudi regime that sponsors international terrorism?

all this anti-semite garbage re jeremy corbyn started off as a diversion to the above. to the delight (and possible amazement) of the tories and their friends in the labour party they found it was actually a smear that lasted.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK party conferences
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 Aug 18 - 03:36 PM

Some of the Windrush victims were expelled under Labour.
I doubt the issue will be raised in any conference.

Labour governments had foreign and armaments policies identical to Tory governments too.

all this anti-semite garbage re jeremy corbyn started off as a diversion to the above.

No. It all came entirely from within the Labour Party.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK party conferences
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 Aug 18 - 03:43 PM

You're a hero, Pete. And, as I'm not talking to dishonest Keith, would you care to ask him whether Jonathan Sacks or any of the Board of Deputies or Netanyahu are members of the Labour Party? Last time I checked...


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Subject: RE: BS: UK party conferences
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 Aug 18 - 03:46 PM

They took up the issue Steve, but it originated entirely from within the Labour Party.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK party conferences
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 30 Aug 18 - 03:59 PM

ok.. which party leader is the shittest dancer...???


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Subject: RE: BS: UK party conferences
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 Aug 18 - 04:03 PM

May has more chance of winning that than holding on to her job!


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Subject: RE: BS: UK party conferences
From: peteglasgow
Date: 30 Aug 18 - 04:07 PM

i would have thought it was pretty obvious that some jewish people and organisations support the labour party while others oppose it.
what has been less predictable is how many labour mps oppose the party and its leadership.
there has always been a majority within the labour party who support the idea of an ethical arms policy, are anti-nuclear arms and respect international efforts for equality and peace. we are more vocal and successful at different times. as jeremy corbyn has always been at the forefront of this group, and is now party leader we expect this argument to be made more forcefully. the more we mean it, the more opposition from the establishment we should expect, as they see this way of thinking as challenging the status quo and their own privileged position within it.
supporters of the israeli government's illegal treatment of the palestinians are quite right to see the current labour leadership as a threat to their position. and so we get the repetitive and tiresome (attempts) again to discredit the party by throwing increasingly ludicrous abuse.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK party conferences
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 Aug 18 - 04:11 PM

Spot on. And now we have the perennially barking mad Frank Field proving the case for us.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK party conferences
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 Aug 18 - 04:38 PM

Anyway, I'd pit Ed Balls against Theresa May in terpsichorean endeavours any day. Though I don't want to see either of them twerk unless they have at least twelve layers of clothes covering their respective arses...


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Subject: RE: BS: UK party conferences
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 30 Aug 18 - 04:50 PM

Field is right to resign from the Labour party, though he has given the wrong reason. The right reason is that he is, and always has been, a closet tory. He was about to be deselected anyway because of his pitiful behaviour in voting against a Labour amendment on the brexit bill which would have preserved some of our trade and links with Europe. For this, he and the equally pitiful Kate Hoey, do not deserve membership of the Labour party. The alleged antisemitism is entirely a smokescreen.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK party conferences
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 30 Aug 18 - 05:31 PM

Very intolerant David Carter.
Judge not lest ye be judged.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK party conferences
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 Aug 18 - 06:35 PM

Come off it, Al. Field has been a compete arsehole for decades, revelling in his only talent, that of being a total Labour faux-maverick as often as he can manage it. Good riddance. And Hoey is a total arch-Tory if ever there was one. And she's a bit thick too.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK party conferences
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 30 Aug 18 - 09:19 PM

I've got to admit, I don't know much about him.
But I looked him up on wikipedia.
The point is , he's served the Labour Party a long time. He's held the line whilst the left wing of the party has pursued with its usual cocky attitude policies which were anathema to the general public and electoral poison.

As a person dependent, (totally dependent!) on the health service and the welfare state - the perennial problem of the Labour Party is the left wing's inability to grasp the importance of keeping the government out of the hands of the tories. They have far too much fun in opposition. What they really hate about Blair is that he made them confront the realities of wielding power in office.

If there is disquiet amongst the Jewish vote (and there appears to be). How about stop pooh pooh-ing, get the bloody wax out of your ears and LISTEN!

Instead of which, there is rudeness, defiance, aggression, ignorance and relentless stupidity. Jews know about being jews, and what constitutes anti semitism. Just like disabled people know about what constitutes discrimination against them.

Yeh, go on and lose another election and blame it on the media. You might fool yourself. But its bloody tough on the folks who need the welfare state.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK party conferences
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 30 Aug 18 - 11:10 PM

Al - 'Jews' are not a homogenous mass all sharing the same voice and politics...

The serious problem here is right wing jews
pursuing a hostile vindictive vendetta against Corbyn
as an indivividual politician they despise,
and the Labour party as a political party they oppose.
These right wingers are blatantly resorting to obvious ruthless dirty tricks to prevent a Labour victory...

Such right wing Jews within the labour party might just as well be tories
for all the divisive undermining disruption they are causing...

How much they are following an Israeli Government instigated anti labour campaign
should be open to honest debate,
but is instead stifled and shut down by fear of knee jerk accusations of antisemetism...

The sad fall out is that ordinary moderate Jews are caught in the cross fire,
many responding to peer pressure as easily manipulated 'useful idiots', to join in with the anti labour propagandising
...

Even worse, this may all be back firing on our Jewish community,
stoking much more genuine antisemetism amongst the real racists in British society...


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Subject: RE: BS: UK party conferences
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 30 Aug 18 - 11:42 PM

..but as this latest Keith thread is puportedly about UK party conferences.
and supposedly not yet another oportunist pretext of his to dwell and fester in the labour 'Jewish problem'...

it's wiser that we do not get caught in the same old trap of acting like Keith's useful idiots...

Suffice to say, this particular 'problem' is much too complex in it's origins and intentions,
and unusual temporarily convenient alliances between right wing Jews
and traditionally antisemitic tories...

Much too complex for simplistic easy conclusions and accusations...


But far reaching in potential long term real tensions and division it may exacerbate in wider society...


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Subject: RE: BS: UK party conferences
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 31 Aug 18 - 12:02 AM

Al - it's late, I'm sleep deprived and tired.. this should have been one one post, not fragmented like this..

But as I mentioned previously, my mum is half Jewish..

She is 86 and has been a loyal Labour voter all her life since joining the Labour League of Youth.

She is appalled at what some of her father's people are recently doing to destroy the Labour Party...

Particularly those within the party who have apparently lost sight of why they are members,
and the founding priorities of gaining power to defend and improve the quality of life of ordinary less well off British folks...

This is my opinion now [not my mum's]

There seems to be a proxy war being faught on British soil between the Israeli Government
versus pro Palestinian supporters...
Neither side seems to care about the collateral damage to the Labour Party,
or long term welfare of ordinary labour voters, their families, and wider community,
that a Labour victory would hopefully benefit...

A bunch of zealot bastards on both sides of this distracting divisive conflict...


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Subject: RE: BS: UK party conferences
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 31 Aug 18 - 02:04 AM

What they really hate about Blair is that he made them confront the realities of wielding power in office

Oh, come on, Al. You have, at a stroke, just wiped out a proud record of Labour leadership, including Attlee who presided when that very NHS that you rely on was introduced. What most Labour supporters hate about Blair was his mismanagement of the Gulf crisis and swinging too far to the right.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK party conferences
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 31 Aug 18 - 02:07 AM

Well obviously the Jewish vote has been leftist most of the 20th century from the days of Mosley to the plays and new world socialism view of playwrights like Wesker and Jack Rosenthal.

So what's this crap about the Jewish vote not being a homogenous group. The working class Jewish vote has always been an identifiable strain in the electorate. One with a proud tradition.

And at the moment they feel discomfitted. Don't blame it on right wing Jews. Blame it on a guy who has not declared the declared aim of various groups, namely the destruction of the state of Israel, to be utterly shameful.

There was time - within living memory - when every single state bordering Israel declared Israel's destruction as the desired aim. They peppered that part of Africa and the Med with posters showing a big foot kicking Israel out into the sea.

None of the bloody pusssyfooting around like there has been about Brexit. These are vital issues. The bearded bastard needs to speak up loud Loud and memorable. Get a better speech writer. So that people are in no doubt...because the phrases ring in your mind beyond the smear of any snotty Daily Mail hack. From the time of Abraham Lincoln - that's been the job of a good politician.

Frank Field should be wake up call. And not before bloody time.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK party conferences
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 31 Aug 18 - 02:16 AM

Dave, you may find this hard to believe - but poor people were safer under Blair than any tory. Whatever his faults (and God knows he upset me over many issues) I could find it within me to forgive him because I knew while he was in power , my disabled wife would have her needs taken care of. And he had the knack of being re-elected. Once Brown managed to unseat him, we were in the shit.

tHe depredations begin the day tories take power.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK party conferences
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 31 Aug 18 - 02:32 AM

ABANDON HOPE, ALL YE WHO ENTER HERE...


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Subject: RE: BS: UK party conferences
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 31 Aug 18 - 03:58 AM

Al - you let your bitterness cloud your mind and your mood;
and your understanding of the present day state of Labour
and it's friends and foes seems a bit errmm.. unbalanced......

My wife's overwhelmingly increasing workload in a state school,
the attack on her working conditions,
and the tangible climate of fear/stress
began during Blair's reign..

My own experiences on benefits, and trying to acccess adult education
became significantly worse shortly adter he gained power..
It soon became stricter and more coercively authoritarian than even under the tories..

All he did from the start was try to convince global capitalists,
and habitual right wing voters he could out tory the tories...

Of course, at first we were too giddy with the euphoria of a Labour victory
to notice this pernicious negative shift in welfare and public sector working conditions...

Blair laid the groundwork for Cameron and his treachourous liberal lap dogs...
After a few years we cottoned on to that..


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Subject: RE: BS: UK party conferences
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 31 Aug 18 - 04:12 AM

Amen, pfr.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK party conferences
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 31 Aug 18 - 04:26 AM

I've just confirmed this with the wife,
When we moved from London back to the west country 1999/2000
She started a new senior management job in a state primary.
We could go out for a pint and live music most evenings.

A couple of years later there was excitement that cash had been found to equip all school staff
with brand new laptops.
Wow what a great gift...!!!
Then reality dawned.. workload gradually increased as it became an expectation
that she would need to spend time at home using the laptop to catch up
on all the newly introduced beaurocratic pupil evaluations, etc..
Year by year this demand on her home time significantly increased..
Soon enough every week day evening was consumed by an hour or two,
or more of ever demanding homework on the laptop..

The tory/Lib pact was still not to happen for more than a few years..
This all happened and became accepted work practise under Blair.
The tories only capitalised on and set in stone what Blair had brought in so sneakily..

Now her homelife consists almost entirely of school related 'extra' work...
..and staff know they have to like it or lump it or face threat
of 'reapraisal' of their ability to do the job...
It's no secret older more expensive salaried employees are under constant scrutiny
for who can be replaced...

Blair's New Labour Govt started that ball rolling...
Frank Field's vision of a winning Labour Party would in all probability be an even worse nightmare...


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Subject: RE: BS: UK party conferences
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 31 Aug 18 - 04:29 AM

"...but poor people were safer under Blair than any tory."

The gulf between rich and poor widened inexorably under Blair. His Middle East policies were at least in part responsible for inviting terrorism on to our streets. Any other ways he made the poor "safer?"


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Subject: RE: BS: UK party conferences
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 31 Aug 18 - 05:04 AM

Big Al, stop trying to defend Field by invoking the undoubted successes of the Blair government. Frank Field is no Tony Blair, and he was almost as much of a pain in the neck in Blair's day. Antisemitism is a red herring, the issue is Field's digusting support of the brexiteers in the tory party. And his conspiring to scupper a Labour amendment to limit he damage from brexit. He is a disgrace, he should resign, if he chooses to stand as an independent he can, but he should be exposed for the charlatan he really is.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK party conferences
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 31 Aug 18 - 05:07 AM

As Deputy Leader, To Watson must know more about all this than any of us.
he said, "This is a serious loss to the party and I deeply regret Frank's decision. It reflects both the deep divisions in the party and the sense of drift engulfing us. It is a major wake up call. We cannot afford to lose people of such weight and stature."


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Subject: RE: BS: UK party conferences
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 31 Aug 18 - 05:22 AM

BBC on why Field resigned,

"Veteran Labour MP Frank Field has quit the party's group in Parliament, saying the leadership is becoming "a force for anti-Semitism in British politics".
The Birkenhead MP also blamed a "culture of intolerance, nastiness and intimidation" in local parties."


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Subject: RE: BS: UK party conferences
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 31 Aug 18 - 05:24 AM

I am sure that the BBC are reporting accurately what Field is claiming to be his motives.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK party conferences
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 31 Aug 18 - 05:30 AM

no the real shitstorm for teachers started in thatch's regime.
the national curriculum, SAT tests, responsible for your own budget, the money following the market....ring any bells.....keith joseph? Sheila lawlor, tory think tanks....?

Blair was a public school wallah who understood nought of education, education, education, tory nastiness, and much else. Still he knew how to get elected.

There's a definite feeling of crisis, what crisis about you guys....enjoy the next 18 years of tory rule. That's what the last period of indifference to public disquiet, and 'we're left wing perfect people' cost us.

Good old Michael Foot. My Quaker, Green peace, CND parents loved him.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK party conferences
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 31 Aug 18 - 05:34 AM

Keith - if you want this thread to flourish, then try to respect your own commitment to 'balance'

"...this is about the party conferences.
What is your worry? You can just ridicule the Tory conference if you like.
I intend to have a good laugh at both.
"

please try to resist your usual urges...

The BBC is not a paragon of balance it pretends to be...

Field's resignation letter should not be considered a bible like scripture of unquestionable 'truth'..

Perhaps more like the spiteful exit words of an old man with limited shelf life
who can't get his own way with rivals...?????


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Subject: RE: BS: UK party conferences
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 31 Aug 18 - 05:41 AM

Al - odd how my wife'e previously enjoyable rewarding career in schools
only started to sour and become severely stressful after Blair got in...

All the worse now thay are in the uncertain worrying process
of having academy transformation imposed on them...


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Subject: RE: BS: UK party conferences
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 31 Aug 18 - 06:01 AM

Al - and where did you get this daft idea we are all cliched far lefties hell bent on perpetual oposition..

Against the odds, Corbyn surprised us all with his increasing popularlty
and possibilities of election if the tories f@cked up bad enough..

..that is until this conincidently well timed 'Jewish Problem' suddely popped up out of nowhere
to scupper Labour's positive advances towards next government...???

If Corbyn could have rode the popularity and won,
my interest would have been in who he would be mentoring as his younger less 'tainted' succesor...???

will we ever know now...????


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Subject: RE: BS: UK party conferences
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 31 Aug 18 - 06:19 AM

Field knew he had to go. His choice of how he did it was designed to do most damage to the party while trying to make it look like he was being honourable. He was doing no such thing and while most people can see through his cynical use of anti-semitism there will always be those who will either be fooled or pretend they have been for their own aganda.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK party conferences
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 31 Aug 18 - 06:23 AM

Tom Watson is implacably opposed to Corbyn in every regard, and never misses an opportunity to smear him to just the right degree that allows him to hang on to the deputy leadership. If he put as much energy into dissing the Tories as he does into dissing Corbyn, in league with all those other disaffected Blairites and Brownites and the ragbag pro-Bibi bunch that includes the Board Of Deputies, a knackered old ex-Chief Rabbi who should stick to Thought For The Day and a bunch of conspiratorial Israeli right-wing politicians, Labour's chances at the next election would be hugely enhanced. Well they may be anyway, because the country showed last time out that they're impatient with all the personal attacks and would rather actually know what the bloody plans for governing the country are.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK party conferences
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 31 Aug 18 - 06:27 AM

My mum don't like the look of that Tom Watson....

The names Brutus and Judas come to mind...


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Subject: RE: BS: UK party conferences
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 31 Aug 18 - 07:10 AM

For godsake - just ask yourself.....what possible profit could it be to Watson to attack Corbyn?

I worked eight years as s teacher in the inner ring of Brum from 1971. When Denise's condition forced me to abandon my teaching career and become a pro musician, I couldn't get much continuity going because rheumatoid arthritis sets the agenda.

Ao I started doing odd (mostly very odd) supply contracts. I saw inside dozens of schools.

The chaos was well under way by 1985.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK party conferences
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 31 Aug 18 - 07:35 AM

Al - my wife started in the profession 30 odd years ago,
But she honestly has only experienced real increasing decline and stress
in the quality of work culture since 2000...

..and she is one of the stronger of her colleagues who has so far weathered problems
without crumbling, taking extended sick leave for anxiety, or resigning...

The Head did target her for obvious constructive dismissal 5 or 6 years ago,
but she faught back with help from the union rep.

So the school shifted direction and targetted another weaker middle aged member of staff instead...

It is a constant climate of uncertainty and paranoia..

Just about every week she has interactions with members of staff literally crying tears under stress...


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Subject: RE: BS: UK party conferences
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 31 Aug 18 - 07:37 AM

btw... "For godsake - just ask yourself.....what possible profit could it be to Watson to attack Corbyn?"

come on.. we know you are not that naive about politicans and their personal ambitions...???


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Subject: RE: BS: UK party conferences
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 31 Aug 18 - 07:45 AM

He's got you dancing to his obsessive tune again lads
Shame on you for giving this fanatic air time
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: UK party conferences
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 31 Aug 18 - 07:49 AM

Jim - it's ok.. he seems to have scarpered - knock knock ginger like - from his own thread...

In the meantime, Al is presenting interesting stimulus for thought...


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Subject: RE: BS: UK party conferences
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 31 Aug 18 - 08:10 AM

Wel I saw a Head of English terrorised by Chris Woodheads minions into losing the sight in one eye when his blood pressure went through the roof. That was about '89.

Maybe your wife didn't see ensuing chaos, but I bloody did. Entire stockrooms filled with sat tests and the revisions. Schools unable to afford to employ experienced teachers. Every school's budget having to buy from the government a loose leaf folder with fucking stupid demands on the National Curriculum - £18 a time. Junior schools had to buy ten folders for every teacher.Children who couldn't spell their own names required to study two foreign languages.

Mind you if she didn't notice that lot.....


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Subject: RE: BS: UK party conferences
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 31 Aug 18 - 08:43 AM

Al - She started in East London circa 1985,
if she did see any of all that,
as far she is concerned it's been much worse since Blair
and this other current bunch of tories were in charge...

She at least had more evenings and weekends free,
until the demands and increasing workload at home of that bloody school laptop,
and non-stop texts and emails about work when she should be trying to switch off and rest...

We used to have a good active social life until about 15 years ago
But what do I know, I'm just her domestic personal asst...


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Subject: RE: BS: UK party conferences
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 31 Aug 18 - 08:48 AM

"Al is presenting interesting stimulus for thought..."
He does most of the time
Corbyn is no more an anti semite than Keith is a humanitarian
The Israelis have now joined up with the old guard 'New Labour' in order to get rid of Corbyn - every single accusation can be traced to this
Frank Field's Wikin entry reads " Frank Field was named as the 100th-most-influential right-winger in the United Kingdom by the Daily Telegraph.[42] Field supports the return of national service to tackle growing unemployment and instil "a sense of order and patriotism" in Britain's young men and women.[43] "

The dream team of Netanyahu's nutters and Blair's WMD Warriors have targeted Corbyn from the day he pledged support for Palestine - the first accusation was made four weeks after he made that statement

Corbyn is saying nothing many thousands af Jews are saying about Israel
Laast month an INTERNATIONAL CONFERENCE OF JEWS met and agreed that it it was antisemitic to accuse opponents of the regieme as being antisemitic
ISRALI JEWS ARE BEING ARRESTED ON THE STREETS of Israel for opposing Govenment policy
EVEN THE RABBIS ARE AT IT
YOUNG AMERICAN JEWS HAVE TAKEN TO THE STREETS, saying exactly what Corbyn is saying

Keith will respond to none of this - he will cling desperately to a has-been right wing Labour politicians wish to return to the days of new Labour

Useing the Jewish People to defend mass murder and ethnic cleansing is antisemitic in the extreme
It is the behaviour that sent six million Jews to their deaths

The only Jews Keith is interested are those who support extremist right wing policies
It really is time this ****** nonsense was nipped in the bud before we end up with Tommy Robinson as Prime Minister
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: UK party conferences
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 31 Aug 18 - 08:53 AM

well of course its worse. It could only get worse once education was out of the hands of teacher who had to make it work and a political football.

In all that time there was only one decent minister of ed - John Macgregor. And once Thatch realised he was trying to undo the damage Keith Joseph had done - he was sent off to Northern Ireland.

After that it was lickspittle wankers all the way Baker, Clarke etc.

The course was set and it needed a more profound thinker posh boy Blair - education, education, education. my arse.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK party conferences
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 31 Aug 18 - 09:42 AM

look! if i'm wrong JC will win the next election. Let's hope I'm wrong and you're right!


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Subject: RE: BS: UK party conferences
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 31 Aug 18 - 09:56 AM

I'd like my mum to see a labour Govt again before it's too late for her..
She's voted loyaly all her life and never seen labour win anything locally in her part of the South West..
It's always been entrenched tory.. never changing...

Same in the town where I live 15 miles up the road...

Jacob Rees-Mogg's posh arse casts a dark blue shadow over the entire south west peninsula...


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Subject: RE: BS: UK party conferences
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 31 Aug 18 - 10:01 AM

..and I never saw JC as more than a surprising reminder to Labour about actually trying to be a labour party again.
I never expected him to survive even this long.
I really am keen to know who he'd choose as his preferred younger sucessor...

That young Welsh mp who challenged him, didn't seem that bad..
if he hadn't been egged on so prematurely...


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Subject: RE: BS: UK party conferences
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 31 Aug 18 - 11:04 AM

Keith - if you want this thread to flourish, then try to respect your own commitment to 'balance'

My posts are balanced, but the rest of you have made it all about Labour.
Jim has even started on about Israel again!!

I did post Field's own stated reason for leaving. That too was for balance. Many have posted what others claim his reasons to be, but only I have given his reasons according to him.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK party conferences
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 31 Aug 18 - 11:24 AM

ok.. you've done labour..

so now in the spirit of 'balance' give us your best merely reporting 'the facts' on a tory scandal...


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Subject: RE: BS: UK party conferences
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 31 Aug 18 - 11:27 AM

Here's the important fact about Field. Resign? He should have been thrown out - a Red Tory.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK party conferences
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 31 Aug 18 - 12:34 PM

"
Jim has even started on about Israel again!!"
This has never been about anything else
Why should a part founded mby emigre Jews with a centry's track record of opposing any form of racism suddenly (become Jew harets


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Subject: RE: BS: UK party conferences
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 31 Aug 18 - 12:38 PM

as I predicted - you ahve ignored every single point - you were the one who raised the question Jews Keith - nobody else
You an obsessive antisemite


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Subject: RE: BS: UK party conferences
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 31 Aug 18 - 01:13 PM

Of my ten posts only 3 were about Labour only.
The rest of you chose to make it all about Labour.

Jim, Israel has no relevance at all to this thread.
You are just utterly obsessed with it.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK party conferences
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 31 Aug 18 - 01:25 PM

You made it about Israel Keith
"Meanwhile Labour Jewish MPs seek bodyguards at their conference, as BBC's Laura Kuenssberg did last year, and Momentum want a motion calling for a second referendum on Brexit which the leadership do not want."
Any accusaation of antisemitism came with the return of Freinds of Israel with their orders
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: UK party conferences
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 31 Aug 18 - 01:26 PM

Well the thing is Keith = whoever wins the Tory power struggle, its going to be a bloody tory, whatever happens...


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Subject: RE: BS: UK party conferences
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 31 Aug 18 - 02:23 PM

By the way
"You are just utterly obsessed with it."
It is you who has dirplayed your hatred of labour for years
It is you who defended Tory sex pests and peados - claiming there was no evidence
Yet without a single shred of evidence that Corbyn has ever attacked the Jewish people oyu have pursued this issue until you have made yourself the sick joke that you have become
You have even betrayed the country you claim to be proud of by supporting a foreign power's interference in its democratic politics
Now that's what I call being obsessed
Go away Keith
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: UK party conferences
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 31 Aug 18 - 02:37 PM

LAURA KUENSSBERG
AND AGAIN

You do pick your friends, don't you
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: UK party conferences
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 31 Aug 18 - 02:50 PM

"Go away Keith"

Nah Jim, keep him here. At least while he's here he's not stinking up the Brexit thread with his verbal excrement.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK party conferences
From: Little Hawk
Date: 31 Aug 18 - 05:18 PM

One of the things I am quite thankful for is that since I live in Canada, I don't have to worry about all this. Rather, I can just sit back and calmly enjoy the spectacle of my UK compadres savaging each other over their usual rancorous partisan differences.

Lovely. Now, where did I put the chips?


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Subject: RE: BS: UK party conferences
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 31 Aug 18 - 05:22 PM

Our pleasure, LH. Enjoy! ;-)


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Subject: RE: BS: UK party conferences
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 01 Sep 18 - 04:46 AM

Jim, remember I was a Labour voter and hope to be again.
What is your point about Kuenssberg? Mine was just that she needed bodyguards to attend the Labour conference last year. Are you happy with that?

Suppose she is a Tory. Does that make it right?

LH,
UK compadres savaging each other over their usual rancorous partisan differences.

Look again. There is a cadre of like minded zealots on one side, and just me putting the middle of the road majority view on the other.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK party conferences
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Sep 18 - 05:41 AM

"middle of the road "
Brainwashed Iroish Children
Culturally implanted child rapists
Slave Owning travelers

Nuff said
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: UK party conferences
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Sep 18 - 06:21 AM

By the way
You voted for Labour when it was led by the WMD war criminal and you'll only vote for them again when Tommy Robinson becomes leader with Nigel Farage as deputy leader
Moderate my arseum
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: UK party conferences
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 01 Sep 18 - 06:22 AM

In reluctant response to the post of 04.46am, in the interests of honesty and balance (two attributes sorely missing, predictably, of course, from that post), here's the wiki entry on the matter of the bodyguard.

Bodyguard

Charles Moore in The Spectator wrote in July 2017 of being told "informally" that Kuenssberg had received protection from a bodyguard during the 2017 general election. The BBC had believed her safety was under threat because of online abuse considered to be mainly from supporters of Jeremy Corbyn.The BBC refused to comment about the story. The Labour politician Yvette Cooper defended the BBC's political editor: "It’s her job to ask difficult questions. It’s her job to be sceptical about everything we say." By the end of the campaign Kuenssberg was also being abused by Conservative and UKIP supporters.

At the Labour Party conference in Brighton in September 2017, Kuenssberg was accompanied by a man The Times identified as a former soldier who now works in security for a firm used by the BBC. Journalist Jenni Russell, a former BBC editor herself, was quoted in The New York Times about the issue affecting Kuenssberg: “The graphic level of threats to women is quite extraordinary and it’s one of the worst things to have happened in recent British public life.” The bodyguard also accompanied her to the Conservative Party conference in Manchester in October 2017.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK party conferences
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 01 Sep 18 - 07:47 AM

"There is a cadre of like minded zealots on one side, and just me putting the middle of the road majority view on the other."


An outstanding comedy quote of 2018...


too sophisticated to be mere satire...


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Subject: RE: BS: UK party conferences
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 01 Sep 18 - 07:50 AM

I really can't be arsed. As Einstein said, "Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again, and expecting a different result".


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Subject: RE: BS: UK party conferences
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 01 Sep 18 - 08:11 AM

Wow! And Einstein didn't play The Boot and Shoe Club in Leicester....how did he know that?

that's clever!


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Subject: RE: BS: UK party conferences
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 01 Sep 18 - 09:22 AM

BONUS FEATURE: DELETED ALTERNATIVE TAKE...

"There is a cadre of like minded zealots on one side, and just me putting the middle of the road majority view on the other."

Yes, we also have other patients in this secure unit
who sincerely believe they are Napoleon and Winston Churchill...


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Subject: RE: BS: UK party conferences
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 01 Sep 18 - 10:09 AM

I am the only poster here (other than LH) not from the Labour Far Left.

Jim,
You voted for Labour when it was led by the WMD war criminal

I do not agree with that assessment. Under him we won three elections in a row after years in the political wilderness, and since he left we have never won another. Are you content to be permanently in opposition and just a protest party, or do you want to be a force for progressive and caring governance.

Steve, thanks for that information, but the threats to her all came from anti-Semites of the Far Left. Jewish MPs feel the need for protection now from the same area.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK party conferences
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 01 Sep 18 - 10:44 AM

PFR,
"There is a cadre of like minded zealots on one side, and just me putting the middle of the road majority view on the other."
An outstanding comedy quote of 2018...


Fact actually. You are all from the Far Left of politics. I am the only poster from the centre ground.
Although your extreme views are utterly unrepresentative of UK opinion, your group of zealots now dominate all political debate here, just as you totally dominate this thread.

I concede that in non-political threads you are all geniality personified. Try to value diversity of opinion in politics too.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK party conferences
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Sep 18 - 11:00 AM

"I am the only poster here (other than LH) not from the Labour Far Left."
Nobody is from the far leeft - it's a meaning less term aimed usually at Trotskyists
You are from the far right - the Tommy Robinson variety - your track record gives you away
It's about time that yopu cme to terms with the fact that you, of all people, are not in the position to accuse anybody of being an extremists
After some of your pronouncements you'd have been disbarred from giving evidence at the Nuremberg War trials due to 'conflict of interest'
You describe me as being "obsessive" - you count the number of threads you've opened trying to show Corbyn (the least racist and bigoted politician in Parliament today) to b a Jew hater
Give it a rest - nobody here takes you seriously - you've made yuorself a figure of fun
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: UK party conferences
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Sep 18 - 11:07 AM

SOMETHING ELSE FOR YOU TO IGNORE
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: UK party conferences
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 01 Sep 18 - 11:48 AM

Until the last General Election, I'd never voted Labour in my life - I had always voted Liberal, then later Lib-Dem, at every General and Local Election since I became eligible to vote in 1965. In that respect, I feel justified in claiming to be truly of the 'middle ground'.

The perception of an individual's political position depends on the point the perceiver starts from. The problem for a fascist is that, compared to themselves, anyone truly of the 'middle ground' appears to be, comparatively speaking, 'left-wing'.

I recommend the accuser to 'know thyself' before making unjustifiable accusations against those he has never met, and doesn't know from Adam.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK party conferences
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 01 Sep 18 - 01:57 PM

BWM,
I feel justified in claiming to be truly of the 'middle ground'.

No. You have expressed your support for Corbyn and your contempt for Labour Blairites.
You are of the Labour Far Left like all the other posters here.
Like minded zealots all.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK party conferences
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 01 Sep 18 - 01:59 PM

"Try to value diversity of opinion in politics too.
Zealots are unable to do that - that's what make them zealots."


Couldn't agree more. I have experience - frequently repeated - of Brexiteer Zealots making death threats against me because I disagreed with them. It seldom takes very long before they trot out the usual "You're a traitor who should be arrested, marched out, and shot" horse-shit.

People like them are best ignored.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK party conferences
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 01 Sep 18 - 02:02 PM

Keefy - you don't know me. You don't know who I am, where I've been, what I've done - youknow nothing about me. If you really must make an ass of yourself, that's fine by me - feel free. I'll sit here and laugh.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK party conferences
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 01 Sep 18 - 02:15 PM

The comical thing is..

..genuine far left zealots would probably accuse me of being an old white sexist racist f@cist bully...!!!???


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Subject: RE: BS: UK party conferences
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 01 Sep 18 - 02:17 PM

.. and that other condemnation Keith likes making indiscriminate accustions of...


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Subject: RE: BS: UK party conferences
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Sep 18 - 03:11 PM

"You have expressed your support for Corbyn and your contempt for Labour Blairites."
If nothing of your other monstrous garbage confirms your extreme right wing extremism this will do nicely
Corbyn is not an extremist - far from it - he is s left parliamentary politician who has never advocated violent revolution to overthrow the state
He, like many millions of others on this planet is appalled at the ethnic cleansing and mass murder being carried out by Israel AND THAT IS ALL HE HAS EVER BEEN ACCUSED OF - NOBODY HAS ACCUSED HIM OF EXTREME LEFT WING POLITICS OTHER THAN RACIST ATROCITY APPEASING SHITS LIKE YOU
Blair is a war criminal who narrowly avoided being sentenced for lying about non-existent weapons - and you think that's acceptable, do you?
You are the most right wing, inhuman member of this fi=orul - Your hatred of other races, bcultures and communities hangs over this forum like Like a dirty miasma


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Subject: RE: BS: UK party conferences
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 01 Sep 18 - 04:07 PM

And on that note, I reckon this thread has outlived its usefulness (if, indeed, it ever had any). Time to pull the shutters down on it?


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Subject: RE: BS: UK party conferences
From: peteglasgow
Date: 01 Sep 18 - 04:32 PM

i would guess most of us posting on here are too old and world weary to be zealots- and currently distressed and shell-shocked at recent developments. given that 9 out of 10 of europe's most deprived areas are in the uk and we are the most unequal society in the west i would be happy with some modest adjustments. like a proper respect for our public services for a start and an end to grand meaningless gestures like trident and hs2 eg. anyway, it is not much to ask that we scrap austerity , bit of re-nationalisation and an ethical foreign policy. anything that any well-run european country would expect as normal. we've gone a bit american when socialism is a dirty word.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK party conferences
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 01 Sep 18 - 04:33 PM

come on... let's give keith a chance to demonstrate his new found objective balanced approach..

I'm sure he's busily researching his promised anti tory posts...


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Subject: RE: BS: UK party conferences
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 01 Sep 18 - 04:49 PM

I wouldn't give him the steam off my piss...


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Subject: RE: BS: UK party conferences
From: peteglasgow
Date: 01 Sep 18 - 05:03 PM

cool yer boots, comrades. maybe you are left-wing zealots. i increasingly find that i am discussing stuff with people and struggle to find any agreement ('i never thought we would have to fight for the NHS all over again' - 'yeah, but what about about the muslim paedophiles'or 'it's disgusting the way that the palestinians are treated' - 'labour supporting anti-semite!' etc. i feel very mainstream but no one is accepting that these days.

however, i also feel we have to get far more angry with the government and not on these tiresome little threads.

the fact is that the british establishment have been exploiting and brutalising people all over the world - and here from peterloo to the somme to derry. opposing those 'people' is the only reasonable and patriotic thing to do. not left wing-just common decency


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Subject: RE: BS: UK party conferences
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 01 Sep 18 - 07:02 PM

"Steve, thanks for that information, but the threats to her all came from anti-Semites of the Far Left. Jewish MPs feel the need for protection now from the same area."

Lies.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK party conferences
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 01 Sep 18 - 07:36 PM

Never mind Keith! You're most welcome to the steam off my piss.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK party conferences
From: Stanron
Date: 01 Sep 18 - 08:40 PM

peteaberdeen wrote: 9 out of 10 of europe's most deprived areas are in the uk
Wow. Where did that come from?


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Subject: RE: BS: UK party conferences
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 01 Sep 18 - 10:00 PM

'Corbyn is not an extremist - far from it - he is s left parliamentary politician who has never advocated violent revolution to overthrow the state'

that's big of him.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK party conferences
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 02 Sep 18 - 01:19 AM

When we see BBC news headlines speculating on a real split in the Labour party,
then it's obvious the extent to which the tories are pulling the strings,
and depending on divide and rule strategies
to deparately cling to power...

It doesn't matter which individual leads the Labour party,
the mainstream media & right wing bloggers would dig up any excuse to destroy his/her electability...


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Subject: RE: BS: UK party conferences
From: peteglasgow
Date: 02 Sep 18 - 03:53 AM

hi stan, my wife works for the OU and is very keen on her research. unfortunately i'm not and just rely on things i see for myself and - like everyone -on stuff i read on my chosen. anyway, she's down south in lancashire at the moment- i'll ask her about the 9 out of 10 figure when she gets back. in the meantime i think we can take it as read that we have an appalling problem with poverty, homelessness and sheer cruelty in our country's government just now which the tories are ignoring or making worse. feel free to comment on that while anxiously waiting for your reference.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK party conferences
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 Sep 18 - 04:06 AM

When we see BBC news headlines speculating on a real split in the Labour party,
then it's obvious the extent to which the tories are pulling the strings,


But John McDonnell just said that he is worried that the party will split over anti-Semitism? Tories pulling his strings?
Time to stop pretending and denying.

There is a rare meeting of the Jewish Labour Movement today that could be interesting, but on Tuesday the NEC will make a decision about the IHRA definition which could be crucial.
Hope the thread lasts until then.

Meanwhile, according to the Sundays the Tory party is in turmoil with two separate Brexit related schisms about to open.
Watch this space.

BWM,
Keefy - you don't know me.

I know your posts. You post from a Far Left position, supporting the Far Left Corbynites and reviling the Centre Left Blairites.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK party conferences
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 Sep 18 - 04:11 AM

Pete and Stanron, this from the Indy,
https://www.indy100.com/article/are-9-of-the-poorest-regions-in-northern-europe-really-in-the-uk--eJ0axHCqmx


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Subject: RE: BS: UK party conferences
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 02 Sep 18 - 04:27 AM

Keefy, you don't know me. You do know, however, that from 1965 until 2015 I voted for the Liberal/Lib-Dem candidates in every local and general election. You know this for a fact because I've told you. In 2015 and since, I voted Labour in the GEs because I felt that the Lib-Dems had betrayed my vote in 2010 by joining the Tories in a coalition. However, I still vote Lib-Dem in local elections.

Please explain how you reconcile this - the voting record of a lifelong supporter of the middle-ground Liberal/Lib-Dem Party - with your warped accusation that I'm a Far-Left supporter.

As I said earlier, one's perception of another's political position is strongly influenced by one's own starting position. To a Far-Right supporter who verges on being a Fascist, a supporter of a Centrist party may be viewed as Far-Left, but that is simply because of the extremist position of the person making that judgment.

I repeat - before pretending to know others, Know Thyself.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK party conferences
From: peteglasgow
Date: 02 Sep 18 - 04:50 AM

cheers, keith. not quite as straightforward as i heard it then. however, whatever way we look at it, we are in the shit and it's getting worse as we fail to live up to the standards of our north european neighbours.

i wonder if the impending brexit can offer us good news and good governance that will help us reverse our decline? anyone any ideas?


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Subject: RE: BS: UK party conferences
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 02 Sep 18 - 05:09 AM

Pete, a number of us have been asking for several months now if any of our Resident Brexiteers can give us any good news about Brexit, but none have managed to come up with anything so far.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK party conferences
From: peteglasgow
Date: 02 Sep 18 - 05:29 AM

yes, BWM, i know - i was just adding my own polite request to the many others.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK party conferences
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 02 Sep 18 - 05:44 AM

Aaaahh, sorry! :-)


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Subject: RE: BS: UK party conferences
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 02 Sep 18 - 05:54 AM

Well I suppose the good news will be the end of bad news regularly supplied by membership of the EU.

The end of the EU telling us that we cannot 'unfairly' support our own industries.

Got it?

No I don't suppose you will. But as many of us watched British manufacturing being decimated over the last forty years because of our membership of the EU, and paying for the privilege, there has been a build up of steam coming out of our ears.

Little Englanders. Well yes its a lot smaller economy thanks to those bastards.

That's the good news we're looking forward to.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK party conferences
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 02 Sep 18 - 06:06 AM

EU or not....

I seriously suspect Brit industry owners would have shifted prodution to the Far east whatever.
They wouldn't have given a shit about loss to UK jobs and communities...

In 1990 there was surprise that some big brand names were manufacturing in China.
Now it is the established norm...


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Subject: RE: BS: UK party conferences
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 Sep 18 - 08:52 AM

i wonder if the impending brexit can offer us good news and good governance that will help us reverse our decline?

I think so. See Brexit thread. One is enough!


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Subject: RE: BS: UK party conferences
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 Sep 18 - 08:56 AM

BWM,
Please explain how you reconcile this - the voting record of a lifelong supporter of the middle-ground Liberal/Lib-Dem Party - with your warped accusation that I'm a Far-Left supporter.

I would not try, but your support for Far Left Corbynites and vilification of Centre Left Blairites identifies you as of the Far Left.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK party conferences
From: Raggytash
Date: 02 Sep 18 - 09:01 AM

It's true BWM, just as some peoples posting indicates that they are two goose steps to the right of Hilter.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK party conferences
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 02 Sep 18 - 09:06 AM

Keith - so I think it's only fair and about time you took this oportunity
to suggest your best choice
who we should vote for from now on...???


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Subject: RE: BS: UK party conferences
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Sep 18 - 11:09 AM

who we should vote for from now on...???"
Do you think you should be asking someone who believes all Musilims are implanted to rape children ?
To you really want Tommy Robinson (or worse) as Prime Minister?
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: UK party conferences
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 Sep 18 - 11:22 AM

It's true BWM, just as some peoples posting indicates that they are two goose steps to the right of Hilter.

Name just one, with just one example of a post.

Keith - so I think it's only fair and about time you took this oportunity
to suggest your best choice
who we should vote for from now on...???


Always the centre ground. Hopefully Labour will return to it and start winning again.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK party conferences
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Sep 18 - 11:24 AM

Keith
If you ever refer to any of these people here as an extremist again I will dredge up ebvery on#bscent#r extremist statement you have ever made - as far back as you care to go - you'd better believe that
You are the only extremist here - you are responding to nothing people are saying, you are simply using this site as an extremist soapbox
Enough really is enough
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: UK party conferences
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 02 Sep 18 - 11:52 AM

Chill, Jim. He demonstrates, ever more clearly with every post he inflicts on this forum, that he is a troll, a nasty piece of work, and a fuckwit. Let him run his mouth off - his vile obnoxiousness is here in black and white for all to see.

The best way to deal with him is to treat him with the contempt he deserves and ignore him.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK party conferences
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 Sep 18 - 11:59 AM

As I said, vote for the Centre, not extremists of the Left or Right.
Which Centre ground politicians do you identify with BWM?
Frank Field?


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Subject: RE: BS: UK party conferences
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Sep 18 - 12:12 PM

As promised Keith
Plenty more where this came From
Jim Carroll


Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Keith A of Hertford - PM
Date: 13 Feb 11 - 07:10 AM
Don I do now " believe that all male Pakistani Muslims have a culturally implanted tendency" but only because of the testimony of all those knowledgeable people, and always acknowledging that only a tiny minority succumb.
Do you dismiss all that just because it does not fit your preconceptions, or do you have some powerful evidence to the contrary that you have not shared with us?


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Subject: RE: BS: UK party conferences
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Sep 18 - 12:22 PM

Chill, Jim. He demonstrates
Nop Baccy
Every ti#me the word "exremist" appeaes in his postings I will help him out by giving an exaample of the term
As I said, enough is enough
He's
not discussiong - he's attention seekinbg
I'd rather put my pennies in an Oxfam box if I wnt to help the needy
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: UK party conferences
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 02 Sep 18 - 12:23 PM

Keith - so suggest a centre party existing right now you and we can vote for
in a potentially very soon snap election...???


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Subject: RE: BS: UK party conferences
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 02 Sep 18 - 12:27 PM

Fair point Jim.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK party conferences
From: Little Hawk
Date: 02 Sep 18 - 01:38 PM

Too bad Chongo Chimp is not a resident of England. Just think what illuminating and incisive comments he could add to this fascinating discussion.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK party conferences
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 02 Sep 18 - 01:41 PM

Frank Field is not a centre ground politician, he parrots the racism of the far right on immigration and brexit. Do not call Frank Field a Blairite. Frank Field is no Tony Blair, and even though Blair was wrong on the invasions of Iraq and Afghanistan, he did a lot of good domestically. Frank Field is not fit to be mentioned in the same sentence.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK party conferences
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 02 Sep 18 - 01:55 PM

"As I said, vote for the Centre, not extremists of the Left or Right.
Which Centre ground politicians do you identify with BWM?"


And as I said, for virtually the whole of my adult life I have voted for Liberal/Lib-Dem candidates - candidates for the party of the middle ground. I have never voted for any 'extremists', nor could I have if I'd wanted to, because there has never been an 'extremist' candidate of either stamp standing in my local constituency - not in parliamentary elections, nor in local elections.

For the same reasons, it is immaterial 'which centre-ground politicians' I may or may not 'identify with' - i, like you and every other voter in the UK, can only vote for a candidate standing in the local constituency/LA Ward in which I reside.

You do understand how the UK Electoral System works, don't you?


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Subject: RE: BS: UK party conferences
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 Sep 18 - 02:45 PM

BWM,
Frank Field has been elected as Labour MP for Birkenhead for 40 years and has been in the party longer than Corbyn.
He is left Wing, though not Far Left.
Like the Labour Blairites he is Centre Left, just as you claim to be.

Whatever your history you now show nothing but contempt for such politicians, and support the Far Left.

Name a Centre politician you approve of.
Name one you think too far Left.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK party conferences
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Sep 18 - 03:09 PM

From the DAILY TELEGRAPH'S Top hundred right wing politicians

. FRANK FIELD
Labour MP for Birkenhead
It may be odd to include a Labour MP on a right wingers list, but Field holds great influence over the development of Conservative policy on pensions and social security issues. Attempts have been made to tempt him to defect, so far without effect.


From a constituency member
“He has always got his own way so this is sort of like throwing his toys out the pram because things haven’t been going the way he likes recently,” says the 50-year-old. “There were times in the past where I thought he was actually a Conservative – you just couldn’t tell the difference with some of the stuff he was coming out with about immigration. This is about career politics, not about us locally.”

Personal sdviser to Margaret Thatcher
"Two nights before the Conservative Party leadership election in November 1990, he visited then Prime Minister Margaret Thatcher at 10 Downing Street. He advised her that her time as Prime Minister was drawing to a close and that she should back John Major to take over the role. His reason for doing so was that he felt that her Conservative colleagues would not tell her straight that she could not win a leadership contest. Following this meeting, he was smuggled out of Downing Street's back door. Two days later Margaret Thatcher supported John Major for the post, and Major went on to become Prime Minister.[12]"

Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: UK party conferences
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 02 Sep 18 - 03:44 PM

Keith, I've tried to put my position to you in a clear and concise manner. I'm under no obligation to explain myself to you (or anyone else for that matter) but I've tried very hard to clarify my position in a series of civilised posts.

You, on the other hand, continue to harrass me with your totally unfounded insinuations, and demands that I 'identify with' political figures whom you hold in contempt. You refuse to accept my freely-given explanation of my political affiliations over a 50+ year period, and your insinuation appears to be that I'm lying.

You are a nobody, you have no authority here, and you have no right to demand that I 'name a centre politician that you approve of'.

You are a hooligan, a troll, a thread-wrecker, and a snivelling cry-baby who scuttles off, snotty-nosed and dummy in hand, when things don't go your way. In short, you are a contemptible piece of shit.

Now FUCK OFF.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK party conferences
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 02 Sep 18 - 04:09 PM

"....who scuttles off, snotty nosed and dummy in hand, to the Mods when things don't go your way."


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Subject: RE: BS: UK party conferences
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 Sep 18 - 04:24 AM

I never go to the mods.
Of course I challenged your ludicrous claim to be at the centre when all your posted views are Far Left.

Tory turmoil intensifies today as Boris attacks May's Brexit performance.
Labour appears now to be finally ready to accept the IHRA definition tomorrow. (The one you said was defunct years ago Steve.)


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Subject: RE: BS: UK party conferences
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 03 Sep 18 - 04:33 AM

Giving in and accepting the imposition of something you think is not good enough,
flawed, or just stupid or wrong,
is something politicians are forced to do from time to time ..

..all a normal part of the game of politics and diplomacy...


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Subject: RE: BS: UK party conferences
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 03 Sep 18 - 05:05 AM

basically, listening to other folks and accepting a [pragmatic] compromise...


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Subject: RE: BS: UK party conferences
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 Sep 18 - 05:29 AM

Do you think IHRA is " not good enough, flawed, or stupid or wrong, " ?


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Subject: RE: BS: UK party conferences
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 Sep 18 - 05:59 AM

Labour accepted the "definition" (wrong-headedly in my view, but hey ho, your setup doesn't always have to do everything your way) a long time ago. The argument is over a single "example" which is clearly intended to stem free speech and criticism of the actions of the Israeli regime. There's an excellent letter in today's Guardian sent on behalf of all 13 members of the Joint List, the alliance of Arab parties in the Knesset, which praises Corbyn as a principled man who opposes racism and who aspires for peace and justice, and which rails against the "definition" which includes anti-Zionism as well as antisemitism and which the current bunch of dishonest dissenters are trying to use to unseat Corbyn.

And I put "definition" in quotes not because I'm doing an akenaton but because it is quite simply not a definition of antisemitism in any sense that fair-minded people would accept. And I don't care how many bloody countries or "decent democracies" have adopted it. Principle trumps all such considerations.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK party conferences
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Sep 18 - 06:02 AM

World criticism of IHRA
"Although internationally recognised by many groups, the working definition of antisemitism has been criticised by some as too broad, and conflating anti-Zionism with antisemitism."

Any definition that defends political groups needs to be kicked into touch - it the equivalent of describing criticism of Thatcher as anti-British or that of Hitler 'anti German' - utter nonsense
No definition should seek to defend either nation or party - in including Zionism it breaches that convention

Once again, by definition, the Israelis who describe it antisemitic to criticise Israel, as have many Israeli statesmen, including their Justice Minister, have already breached this new definition and are, according to its stipulated conditions, 'antisemitic'
Holding Jews collectively responsible for actions of the state of Israel.

Refusing to sign a document which is being abused by The State which claims to represent The Jewish People is not antisemitic, it is in the interests of the Jewish People.
Israel's greatest antisemitic crime to date is to accuse Jews who don't support Government behavior as "self-loathing" non or lesser - Jews
Antisemitism doesn't get any worse than that

You should know all this Keith - you have supported every single atrocity that has been carries out by the various right wing regimes in Israel and you have called Jews like Jewish nurse, Ellen Seigal, who eye-witnessed the Sabra Shatila massacre "liars" - you claim she could not possibly have witnessed what she gave aa signed testimony to having seen
You are an ex#tremist fanatic, which makes your accusations utterly ludicrous    Give it a rest
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: UK party conferences
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 03 Sep 18 - 06:02 AM

General consensus is - you are...



personally I think IHRA is... CENSORED to avoid the usual Keith nonsense...


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Subject: RE: BS: UK party conferences
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 03 Sep 18 - 06:05 AM

Steve & Jim - grrrrr..

Take 2:

"Do you think IHRA is " not good enough, flawed, or stupid or wrong, " ?"


General consensus is - you are...


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Subject: RE: BS: UK party conferences
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 Sep 18 - 06:37 AM

Well, it looks like Labour is finally going to accept it as everyone else already has.
Funny how no-one else had any problem over it.

Will it be enough to quell the unrest in the party though?

Momentum are proposing "open selection" at the conference. That will make it possible to remove all those troublesome MPs and complete the takeover.

I hope this thread makes it to the conferences!


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Subject: RE: BS: UK party conferences
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Sep 18 - 06:45 AM

As I said - yuo choose what to believe and ignore evertho#ing else anybody has to say which contradict it
You use this forum as your own personal Nuremberg Rally
I've had mu#y fun this morning
Now do what Baccy suggests and do us a favour - we rally aren't qualified to deal with somebody with your problems
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: UK party conferences
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 Sep 18 - 06:51 AM

A rally of one Jim?
I am just putting the middle of the road view, and the only one willing to do that against a whole mob of you Far Left extremists who otherwise totally dominate and momopolise all discussion.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK party conferences
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 Sep 18 - 06:52 AM

monopolise!


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Subject: RE: BS: UK party conferences
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 03 Sep 18 - 07:02 AM

Keith - still waiting for a recomendation for the centre party you will vote for,
and presumably would be keen for us to as well...

..and your anti 'tory 'balance' is a lttle on the week side..
Got anything stronger to attack them with...???

Remember, you wanted this thread to demonstrate how balanced you are...


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Subject: RE: BS: UK party conferences
From: Raggytash
Date: 03 Sep 18 - 07:06 AM

Strange, although I sometimes disagree with various posters on here, there is only one who I would classify as an extremist.

Punkfolkrocker has explained at length his voting history, I would describe that as centre, although the Lib-Dems did veer towards the right. However one poster considers him to be extreme left wing.

Having said that some people consider the Daily Mail to be left wing, 13% of people if I recall correctly.

So what we have here is a group of people who are mainly central with leaning slightly either to the left or right of that and ONE extremist.

I leave it to you to guess who it is!


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Subject: RE: BS: UK party conferences
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 03 Sep 18 - 07:12 AM

Raggy - it's BWM who was the cuddly liberal... not me..

I've not been liberal since O level Govt & Politics when I was too young to vote...

..apart from betrayed tactical voting for those treacherous liberals who immediately kissed Cameron's ring...


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Subject: RE: BS: UK party conferences
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 03 Sep 18 - 07:19 AM

I'm mainly moderately left of centre,
though further left on some issues,
but even further right than many tories on law 'n' order...

I'd suggest that makes me a reasonably average centrist labour voter...


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Subject: RE: BS: UK party conferences
From: Raggytash
Date: 03 Sep 18 - 07:25 AM

Sorry Punkfolkrocker my error ......... better say sorry to Backwoodsman as well !!!!


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Subject: RE: BS: UK party conferences
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 03 Sep 18 - 10:44 AM

Raggy - No probs.. I'll always be too leftwing or rightwing for the average nutter zealot...

..who firmly believe themselves to be the only true non extremists...


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Subject: RE: BS: UK party conferences
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Sep 18 - 10:47 AM

There oyou go again Keith
Typos and personal the abuse you constantly complain about
These fellers can waste their time - I'm w#quite satisfied you've just driven another nail in your coffin on this thread
Your past fellow extremists have been given the boo0t, now only you is left in the bunker

"momopolise all discussion."
Bit unfortunate after you tried to take the pisds out of my typo, don'cha think
Pathetic
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: UK party conferences
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 Sep 18 - 12:07 PM

PFR,
Keith - still waiting for a recomendation for the centre party you will vote for,

Tricky, and Brexit which is neither Left, Right or Centre is an over-riding issue now anyway.

I can only say what I have done. I voted Labour when it was on the Centre ground, but they moved away.
The Tory leadership now is still much closer to the Centre than the Labour leadership, though much of Labour's PLP remains at the Centre.

If Momentum and Corbyn fall, I will be voting Labour again.
If, as seems likely, the Tory leadership changes and moves further Right I will have a real problem.
Then there is Brexit!


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Subject: RE: BS: UK party conferences
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 Sep 18 - 12:50 PM

I never voted for Blair or Brown or Kinnock. I voted LibDem every time.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK party conferences
From: DMcG
Date: 03 Sep 18 - 01:09 PM

Far lefter that I am, I voted Tory for Blair's second term.

But that was primarily because the Tory candidate who had been ousted by Blair's first term was a hard working, constituency minded MP, who rebelled against his party occasionally, whereas the Labour replacement was a do nothing rubber stamp.

These things are more layered than the labels often bandied about would suggest.

(On the other hand, I have just come back from Russia ... maybe I am far left after all)


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Subject: RE: BS: UK party conferences
From: Iains
Date: 03 Sep 18 - 01:15 PM

"Your past fellow extremists have been given the boo0t, now only you is left in the bunker"

Who might they be?


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Subject: RE: BS: UK party conferences
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Sep 18 - 01:50 PM

"Who might they be?"
Ask nicely and I might t5ell you
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: UK party conferences
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Sep 18 - 02:45 PM

Hope you don't think I was referring to you Iains - I wasn't
I assumed you'd just dissipated like a fart in the fresh air
jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: UK party conferences
From: Raggytash
Date: 03 Sep 18 - 04:26 PM

Some on here have considered that the constant attacks on Corbyn do not have much substance.

A very interesting article can be found at tinyurl.com/y7lo4zp8

Very interesting indeed, but some will say not too surprising.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK party conferences
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 03 Sep 18 - 04:38 PM

I am only away a couple of days and it has all happened again! Sorry lads but you have fallen for it again. I am disappointed:-( We all know very well this is just the attention he craves. Just don't give it to him. You know it makes sense :-)


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Subject: RE: BS: UK party conferences
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 Sep 18 - 04:03 AM

Both our main parties are in crisis and the leaders under attack from all sides, and Dave wants to shut down discussion.

What is happening this month will shape our future for years to come.
Start your own thread if you can not bare to see me as the OP, but this is a forum. If you do not like discussions you have a choice.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK party conferences
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 04 Sep 18 - 04:06 AM

Very interesting article Raggy. Perhaps our resident pro-Israel lobby (which is bobad and Iains, not specifically Keith) would care to comment.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK party conferences
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 Sep 18 - 04:22 AM

Rag's article is a disgusting and anti-Semitic lie.
Ordinary, decent long standing Labour members and MPs complained about the anti-Semitism they have experienced from within the party.

It is outrageous to suggest that they are acting as paid agents of a foreign government.

It is an familiar old trope to claim that Jews engage in international conspiracies to subvert democracy. I am appalled that people here are taken in by it.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK party conferences
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 04 Sep 18 - 05:05 AM

"It is an familiar old trope to claim that Jews engage in international conspiracies to subvert democracy. I am appalled that people here are taken in by it."

..and of course no Jews ever conspire for their own advantage...???

utter bollocks.. all peoples can and do...

IsraeliGovt regime wants it's cake and eat it...
If you suspect/detect a blatant conspiracy right under your noses,
you got to lump it and pretend it's not happening
if Jews are involved, even if caught red handed....????????


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Subject: RE: BS: UK party conferences
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 04 Sep 18 - 05:16 AM

Keith - there is a stark qualitative difference between far right hate speach
their paranoid racist theories regarding Jewish conspiracies...

and some Jewish zealots actively conspiring in the real world for the the benefits of Israel Govt regime,
and being held to account if reasonably suspected of doing so...

Even worse if they cynically exploit the far right conspiracy theories as cover and a get out of jail card..


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Subject: RE: BS: UK party conferences
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 04 Sep 18 - 05:33 AM

Keith - take this on board...

There may be links between powerful brutal Russian Jewish Mafia and Israeli Govt...!!!

Now this recent conspiracy theory might be complete baseless nutjob fantasy...

Or there may be real truth in it...

Whatever, the mere possibility indicates the extent of real world deep and dark tangled webs
of international mutually beneficial shady alliances and activities...

True or not... a person has to be really gullible or devious to adhere strictly to pro Israeli propaganda...

.. or form that matter, any other nation's, or political/religious agency's self serving propaganda...

So Keith which are you...???


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Subject: RE: BS: UK party conferences
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 04 Sep 18 - 05:34 AM

3 in a row [now 4].. time for breakfast..


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Subject: RE: BS: UK party conferences
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 04 Sep 18 - 05:37 AM

5 - "form" should obviously be "for"...


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Subject: RE: BS: UK party conferences
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 Sep 18 - 06:01 AM

Long standing Jewish Labour members and MPs lie about experiencing anti-Semitism, at the bidding of foreign government.
You will not find that anti-Semitic trope published in any reputable outlet.
You will never see it in the Guardian.
You will never hear any Labour spokesman suggesting it.
Peter Willsman said something much less ant-Semitic and what happened?
https://www.theguardian.com/news/2018/jul/31/corbyn-ally-says-jewish-trump-fanatics-make-up-antisemitism-claims

Wiki on Middle East Eye,
"Despite Hearst's denial of affiliation between the MEE and any governments or organizations, several members of the Muslim Brotherhood are affiliated with the Middle East Eye.[3][4]
Additionally, according to The Guardian, the MEE has been noted by Saudi Arabia as a news outlet funded by Qatar (both directly and indirectly);[5] the Qatari government is regarded as a supporter of the Muslim Brotherhood and Hamas. On 22 June 2017, during the 2017–18 Qatar diplomatic crisis, Saudi Arabia, the United Arab Emirates (UAE), Egypt and Bahrain, as part of a list of 13 demands, demanded that Qatar close the Middle East Eye, which was seen as sympathetic to the Muslim Brotherhood. The Middle East Eye denied it has ever received Qatari funds"


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Subject: RE: BS: UK party conferences
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 04 Sep 18 - 06:24 AM

Keith - stop grasping at distractions...

I've not bothered reading that link yet..
and if I do it will be as ever with a guarded sceptical eye..
I'll judge it's validity for myself, thank you...

Just now I was talking in broader terms, as well you know...


btw.. "Long standing Jewish Labour members and MPs lie about experiencing anti-Semitism, at the bidding of foreign government."

How can any of us know if there is any truth in this...

I'm not a member of Labour party inner circles.
But my gut feeling is I am suspicious that some of the Jewish community being given air time on BBC news
could be exagerating and blowing things up out of proportion..

I definitely felt that even more so when Margaret Hodge was interevied 2 day ago...

She came over as a shallow, vindictive, self important, self-obsessed, spoilt old princess - with a massive grudge...

I felt no sense that she was a plausible Labour politician who I could vote for if she were a local candidate...


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Subject: RE: BS: UK party conferences
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Sep 18 - 06:38 AM

Keith is now posting the same meaningless racist message on two threads at the same time - that the Arab voice is not to be believed

For Keith, anything to do with Saudi Arabia id untrustworthy - bit it is fine to sell them fighter planes to bomb the shit out of the Yemenis - which he has openly supported
He needs to make up his mind

It is about time that the people accusing the Labour Party of antisemitism specified a#ecxactly what they are accusing them of - accusing Israel f crimes against humanity is a statement of facts - not antisemitism
WHEN HAS THE LABOUR PARTY OR A SIGNIFICANT NUMBER OF ITS MEMBERS EVER ATTACKECKED THE JEWISH PEOPLE? - HISTORICALLY, THAT HAS BEEN THE DOMAIN OF THE TORY PARTY AND THE RIGHT IN GENERAL
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: UK party conferences
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Sep 18 - 07:20 AM

"Long standing Jewish Labour members and MPs lie about experiencing anti-Semitism, at the bidding of foreign government.
You will not find that anti-Semitic trope published in any reputable outlet."

Not antisemitic at all. Long-standing Jewish Labour members and MPs are just as capable of lying or exaggerating as any other MP or member of any other setup...unless you're elevating Jews to be more moral than everyone else and incapable of lying and that we must never suggest otherwise lest we be branded antisemites ...do tell us! And you're saying "bidding." I could suggest instead that the more accurate expression could be "in informal league with," but then you'd accuse me of saying that all Jews are conspirators and that makes me an antisemite...

See how free speech and criticism of the Israeli regime are being constrained?

Here's what the originator of the definition, Kenneth Stern, now has to say about its abuse (from wiki):

The main drafter of the working definition and its examples, Kenneth S. Stern, has not critised the definition, but has cautioned against the free speech implications of its use as a legal tool. In 2011, he co-authored an article about how the 'Working Definition' was being abused in Title VI cases, because it was being employed in an attempt to "restrict academic freedom and punish political speech." He stated that even when these cases were lost "they chilled pro-Palestinian expression" and "McCarthy-like" usage. In November 2017, Stern explained to the US House of Representatives that the definition has been abused on various US university campuses. He warned that it could "restrict academic freedom and punish political speech" and questioned whether definitions created by minority groups should be legislatively enshrined, giving as one of several examples:

"Imagine a definition designed for Palestinians. If "Denying the Jewish people their right to selfdetermination, and denying Israel the right to exist" is antisemitism, then shouldn't "Denying the Palestinian people their right to self-determination, and denying Palestine the right to exist" be anti-Palestinianism? Would they then ask administrators to police and possibly punish campus events by pro-Israel groups who oppose the two state solution, or claim the Palestinian people are a myth?"

He states that the definition was created with data collectors in mind. "I encouraged the Department of State's first Special Envoy for Antisemitism to promote the definition as an important tool. He used it effectively as the framework for a report on global antisemitism." He added: "approaches to antisemitism that endorse and promote academic freedom are more likely to work, in part because they underscore the academy’s goal of increasing knowledge and promoting critical thinking.... approaches that explain academic freedom away or harm it will not only fail, they make the problem worse."


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Subject: RE: BS: UK party conferences
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 Sep 18 - 08:02 AM

Why is this powerful story not told by any reputable publication or broadcaster?
Because it is a racist lie and there would be a prosecution.

The claim is that all those highly respected and longserving
Labour people, Jews and non Jews, are lying about their own experience and doing it in the service of Israel.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK party conferences
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 04 Sep 18 - 08:36 AM

Keith - I have read that long link, and it does get a bit dense to read and bogged down by the end.
I could only skim a few of the top reader comments...

But much of it is essentially what I have come to conclude for myself,
simply by relying on my own experience, informed hunches, and judgement.

My educated opinion is that the writer seems credible, objective,
and the article has well researched journalistic integrity...

Your knee jerk condemnation of this article,
yet again exposes your intolerance as a petty pin-headed arse-licker
of the depotic Israeli Govt regime...

Btw.. thanks.. I wouldn't have bothered finding time to read it if you hadn't started bleating about it...


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Subject: RE: BS: UK party conferences
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 04 Sep 18 - 08:36 AM

Strangely enough, I also advised Margaret Thatcher to fuck off.

I wonder if was me or Frank Field who managed to sway her opinion in the end.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK party conferences
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Sep 18 - 08:46 AM

We've gone off half-cock about this on two threads. I got a bit confused. The Hertford Troll is brainlessly posting the same demented posts on two threads. Why don't we abandon antisemitism on this thread and confine it to the one that actually has antisemitism in the title. Far more sensible. I'm not sensible but I'm doing that anyway.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK party conferences
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 04 Sep 18 - 08:54 AM

Steve - I haven't got round to reading that thread yet.
When I looked at it briefly around 6am I was so relieved someone else had started it,
and it looked like Keith hadn't infested it yet...

I was hoping I might be keeping him occupied here until I started reading the new thread...

Oh well... I'll need to grit my teeth if I do start reding it later...


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Subject: RE: BS: UK party conferences
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 04 Sep 18 - 09:32 AM

"Why don't we abandon antisemitism on this thread and confine it to the one that actually has antisemitism in the title. Far more sensible."

What would be infinitely more sensible would be to ignore that half-wit altogether. You know it makes sense.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK party conferences
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 Sep 18 - 09:47 AM

The Hertford Troll is brainlessly posting the same demented posts on two threads.

The link has been posted on both threads.
It is lies. If there was any evidence it would be reported in the normal way.
Publishing such lies here or in any decent country would be considered a hate crime.

Defending it does none of you any credit.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK party conferences
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 04 Sep 18 - 10:08 AM

Keith - I looked up the biog of that article's writer.
I can't check yours - but in comparison,
it's very unlikely you are anywhere credible or qualified enough to even sharpen his pencils...


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Subject: RE: BS: UK party conferences
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Sep 18 - 11:04 AM

NO SPECIFIC ACCUSATIONS - NO CASE =NATURAL JUSTICE   
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: UK party conferences
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 05 Sep 18 - 04:06 AM

Times today,
"Boris Johnson will address up to a thousand Conservative Party delegates on the eve of Theresa May’s keynote conference speech next month. In a move that will cause discomfort,"

Not looking good for May. Also EU has rejected her Brexit proposal but is warming to that of David Davis who resigned over May's rejection of it.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK party conferences
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 Sep 18 - 11:40 AM

UKIP and the Lib Dems have had their conferences, but nobody noticed.
This week it is Labour.
There will be a debate on Tuesday about Brexit. Corbyn and Watson are said to be anti a "people's vote" but 86% of members are in favour and 90% want to Remain so presumably they will win.

I doubt that Labour voters are represented by those members and it may cost them in an election.
Should be interesting.

Corbyn was interviewed by Andrew Marr. I expect you all saw it.
Most of the interview was about Corbyn's alleged anti-Semitism.

It is reported that a Labour MP who has criticised Corbyn (Margaret Hodge?) will require armed police protection at conference!


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Subject: RE: BS: UK party conferences
From: peteglasgow
Date: 23 Sep 18 - 05:24 PM

a friend of mine is the local delegate to the conference - i asked him 'how is it going, marra?' 'like the 80s' - 'excellent'


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Subject: RE: BS: UK party conferences
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Sep 18 - 02:32 AM

If we tried interminably to maintain a heated thread at all costs about abortion murdering babies, or what bastards the Catholic clergy all are, or what gullible idiots the God Squad are for not being atheists, the moderators here would be down like a ton of bricks. I think it's high time this forum treated attempts by the couple of obsessive and hypocritical maniacs here who try to turn every thread about UK politics into an antisemitism thread in exactly the same way. We have been there, done it and got the ten t-shirts. Enough.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK party conferences
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 24 Sep 18 - 03:04 AM

Corbyn of course was correct in that "the establishment of the state of Israel was in agreement with the United Nations and its borders were defined." And these borders were defined in UN resolution 181. And it is to those borders which Israel needs to return if there is to be a just settlement in the middle east.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK party conferences
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 24 Sep 18 - 03:15 AM

David, you're absolutely correct, but I strongly advise against encouraging Boob-ad and his ilk. That road leads to insanity.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK party conferences
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Sep 18 - 03:28 AM

Israel isn't a "racist endeavour" - it never has been - it is the actions of its leadership in claiming they are acting on behalf of the Jewish people that has given rise to such accusations - it makes the Israeli administration 'antisemitic' by definition
The various administrations have corrupted the ideals that led to the setting up of the State and introduced the kind of politics that made the setting up of the State a necessity after the Holocaust
No state should be judged by its leadership no matter how corrupt or evil
Corbyn is the only political leader in Britain to have recognised the plight of the Palestinian people and supported their right to remain in their homes - that is to his credit and in this respect, he shames the rest of the world who have remained silent over the continuing atrocities and human rights abuses
LATEST LARGELY UNREPORTED ATROCITIES
It remains to be seen whetheer he will live up to his apparent humanity
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: UK party conferences
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Sep 18 - 03:40 AM

SOBERING STATISTICS FROM A RELIABLE SOURCE ON THE QUESTION
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: UK party conferences
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Sep 18 - 05:04 AM

It's there as a topic and there are large demonstrations in the streets of Liverpool protesting the actions of the regime
Censorship is second nature to these people
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: UK party conferences
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 24 Sep 18 - 05:28 AM

I reckon this week will be more interesting than usual...

Enjoy! (as they say at The Harvester....)


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Subject: RE: BS: UK party conferences
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 24 Sep 18 - 07:56 AM

John McDonnell finishes a brilliant, inspiring speech setting out a vision and policies for making the country a far better place for every man, woman and child to live in.

Within five minutes, that fuckwit Tory shill on 'Daily Politics', Jo Coburn, drags 'Corbyn anti-semitism' into the conversation about that speech.

Fuckwitted propaganda for other fuckwits to fall for.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK party conferences
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Sep 18 - 09:58 AM

"a Jewish MP requires police protection at the Labour conference"
"Luciana Berger, MP for Liverpool Wavertree and former director of Labour Friends of Israel and the London Jewish Forum, read, or paid someone else to read, every comment Jeremy Corbyn had ever made on Twitter, going right back to 2012. Finally, her determination paid off, she struck gold and found ONE SENTENCE with which to try and bring down her own party leader right before the May by-elections – a comment defending a dodgy mural he’d ‘not even looked at properly!’

Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: UK party conferences
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Sep 18 - 12:26 PM

It's exceptionally noticeable that she ensures that press cameras are present as she swaggers proudly through the streets with a copper by her side. Jaysus, some of you blokes are just massive suckers.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK party conferences
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Sep 18 - 01:48 PM

Your photo shows armed police outside the conference
The "escort" is not armed

ARMED POLICE AT PARTY CONFERENCE

MORE

SNIPERS

EVEN THE LIB DEMS

Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: UK party conferences
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Sep 18 - 01:52 PM

SHAPE OF THINGS TO COME - SHORTLY


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Subject: RE: BS: UK party conferences
From: Raggytash
Date: 24 Sep 18 - 03:27 PM

It is more than a little surprising that a poster who claim he agrees that "good manners cost nothing" then goes one to describe other posters as "Labour Fuckwits"

Is it me alone who finds this distorted and illogical?


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Subject: RE: BS: UK party conferences
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Sep 18 - 04:27 PM

Armed or unarmed, it is new and unprecedented for an ordinary MP to need police protection at her own party conference.
The police would not provide it without very good reason.

Do not blame her that her policeman is plain to see or that the whole media zooms in on such an amazing sight.
It is a great story. Of course they will.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK party conferences
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Sep 18 - 04:44 PM

Only your kind of press, Mail, Express, Sun. Proper papers would take a far more measured view. Like I said, you're just a massive sucker. Nothing like a good old piece of tabloid senastionalism to keep our Keifie happy in his permanent state of feeble-minded confirmation bias.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK party conferences
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 25 Sep 18 - 03:25 AM

And omigod how weak I am.

I must not feed the trolls.
I must not feed the trolls.
I must not feed the trolls.
I must not feed the trolls.
(and 96 more times...)


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Subject: RE: BS: UK party conferences
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Sep 18 - 04:40 AM

THIS FELLER [those who have been deleted from the thread . . . ]OBVIOUSLY HAS NO INTENTION OF TAKING PART IN RATIONAL DEBATE AND IS INCAPABLE OF POSTING WITHOUT A STRING OF ABUSE - CAN I SUGGEST HE IS TOTALLY IGNORED
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: UK party conferences
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 25 Sep 18 - 04:44 AM

Suggest it as many times as you like, Jim! ;-)


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Subject: RE: BS: UK party conferences
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 25 Sep 18 - 05:06 AM

I think anyone who gives an iota of credence to anything 'Semen' Staines trots out, really is a gullible dickwadi. That Basic Training indoctrination certainly worked on Pte Parts, didn't it?

Jim, Steve, I'm guessing you've never served in HM Forces? The bluster, insults, and provocation is standard lower-ranks tactics in an effort to gain advantage over their intellectual superiors - it's what passes for 'debate' between them. Best let him rant on, and without further comment. Blowhard barrack-room lawyers hate being ignored.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK party conferences
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Sep 18 - 05:08 AM

"Suggest it as many times as you like, Jim!"
Definition
psychopath noun
a person suffering from chronic mental disorder with abnormal or violent social behaviour.
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: UK party conferences
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 25 Sep 18 - 05:24 AM

"Jim, Steve, I'm guessing you've never served in HM Forces?"

Nearest I came was when my application to join the Cubs was turned down due to the fact that I was a leftie atheist republican...


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Subject: RE: BS: UK party conferences
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Sep 18 - 05:41 AM

Think 'Norman Bates, Steve
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: UK party conferences
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 25 Sep 18 - 07:00 AM

Relax, Jim - he knows no better. It's just barrack-room lawyer, lower-ranks, childish, provocative behaviour. I laughed at it then, I'm still laughing at it.

Let it go - it's says considerably more about him than it does about me.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK party conferences
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 25 Sep 18 - 07:45 AM

Gotta be firm here. I'm going to try the following:

1. Ignore everything posted by Iains and Keith.

2. If possible, post something relevant to the thread after they've posted but without referring to any points they make.

3. Do not refer to them by name.

4. Don't make points that may appear to be responses to something they've said.

In short, cut them dead. Completely. They get what they want not by making constructive arguments but by provoking. As soon as we respond they win. They're both sick in the head. So let's try harder, eh?

Starting... NOW! :-)


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Subject: RE: BS: UK party conferences
From: Jack Campin
Date: 25 Sep 18 - 09:18 AM

I'm viewing this in descending chronological order so I'm not seeing the crap. Anyway: there are a few lists on the web purporting to catalogue well-known people with Tourette's, and they are all either over-inclusive (bloated by wishful-thinking self-reports or dodgy historical diagnoses based on urban folklore) or populated by people I've never heard of. David Beckham features on some of them, but he doesn't have it - he has OCD, which is an entirely different condition which sometimes co-occurs with Tourette's.

It's not at all clear how common Tourette's is. Not only could I not name any famous sufferer, I've never met anyone at all who clearly had it, though I've met many people with conditions with a reputation for being a lot rarer. The higher incidence estimates have to be wrong.

Unpleasant thing to have, anyway. I've had occasional vocal tics myself in the past, but nothing like what Tourette's sufferers have to put up with.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK party conferences
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Sep 18 - 10:34 AM

"Threads that descend into personal attack like this are often closed."
If Iains hasn't got the message by now, he never will
You weren't talking about Iains?
Sorry, my mistake
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: UK party conferences
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Sep 18 - 10:53 AM

Until you address those facts specifically there is no proven serious problem of Labour party members attacking of the Jewish people

There is according to the Labour Jews who have complained about it.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK party conferences
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 25 Sep 18 - 11:03 AM

Mad as hatters, all three of 'em.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK party conferences
From: Jeri
Date: 25 Sep 18 - 11:28 AM

If this gets closed, it's not the people you hate who got it closed.
It's ALL of you who chose to talk about each other rather than the thread subject.

Of course, bobad pointed you all at the usual "antisemitism" crap, so that might do it too.

Possibly some combination. In any case, you'll drop the thread subject in favor of the brawl, and the thread will get closed, and you will all blame whoever it is you hate.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK party conferences
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Sep 18 - 11:30 AM

"There is according to the Labour Jews who have complained about it."
The Labour Party has thousands of Jewish members
Why aren't they complaining
The few that have a vested interest in doing so as the links you have ben given prove

You are choosing which Jews to believe on teh basis of your own prejudices
Why are you totally unable to describe in detail what the "serious problem" is
You are relying totally on the hearsay of the few.

You have been given detailed argument in those links - where is yours?
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: UK party conferences
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Sep 18 - 11:47 AM

ANOTHER VERY DETAILED JEWISH VIEW THAT WILL BE IGNORED

These are very detailed arguments suggesting specifically wy these accusations are being made - they are all by Jews

That their opinions are being ignored is indicative that this has nothing to do with antisemitism - rather, it is very much a part of the anti-BDS campaign
Fel free to prove that this isn't the case - hearsay claims don't hack it, I'm afraid
Jim Carroll

How about a comment on Torty Antisemitism - or deesn't consorting with anti-semitic politicians count as Antisemitism

https://medium.com/@jrschlosberg/the-tories-links-to-anti-semitism-can-no-longer-be-ignored-by-labour-in-spite-of-the-deafening-8d32173349e0

Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: UK party conferences
From: Raggytash
Date: 25 Sep 18 - 11:54 AM

I have for the most part refrained from commenting on this thread but the last post from Iains is just too stupid to be ignored.

Iains do you really not recognise spin when you read it, even as it is in this case "ultra" spin.

I should feel sorry for your naivety ....... for some reason I cannot raise my concern so much.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK party conferences
From: Iains
Date: 25 Sep 18 - 12:31 PM

How peculiar even the gruniard carries the story. I wonder what tomorrow's headlines will make of it all?
As I first said Corbyn and co outwatted. Live with it!


https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/sep/25/labour-unexpectedly-drops-plan-for-female-co-deputy-leader    (5 hours ago)


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Subject: RE: BS: UK party conferences
From: Raggytash
Date: 25 Sep 18 - 12:48 PM

The most telling line in that report was a quote from one of the delegates of the West Wirral branch who initially tabled the motion.

She said " there has been disturbing reports that those who want to divide our party .. want to use this as a way to do it"

So the idea that Corbyn was "outwatted" is somewhat if not totally erroneous.

Are you really THAT naive Iains, really ?


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Subject: RE: BS: UK party conferences
From: Iains
Date: 25 Sep 18 - 01:12 PM

Raggytash I really have no interest in the Labour party as you have no doubt gathered. However I do take an interest in the way they are splintering. You may attempt to dismiss it all as spin. I know better.
And as for accusations of naivety, well you can use the term in order to excuse your lack of analysis if you wish, but the reality remains unchanged. As do the accusations of that which must not be mentioned.
According to the Independant it could cost them the next election.
Personally I think many other additional problems would cost them an election.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK party conferences
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Sep 18 - 01:12 PM

"" there has been disturbing reports that those who want to divide our party .. want to use this as a way to do it"
Got there before I did
Of course this is what it's about
Those opposing the Labour Party (well-represented here) would have been up on their chairs screaming "tokenism" had it gone the other way
The last thing they can be accused of it defending the rights of women
THIUS SAYS WHAT NEEDS TO BE SAID about how women are regarded in Parliament
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: UK party conferences
From: Iains
Date: 25 Sep 18 - 01:27 PM

Well if you lefties had a leader that was little more than a token twat he might take control and help establish and dominate the agenda.
He comes across, to me, as a drone, with a fast approaching winter about to kick his ass out of the hive.

If John Major was caricatured as a grey man, Jeremy of the allotment could only be the invisible man.
He has the personality of a squashed cockroach.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK party conferences
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Sep 18 - 01:31 PM

How profound!!!
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: UK party conferences
From: Iains
Date: 25 Sep 18 - 02:44 PM

Not purely my view. The summary below of 2 years ago hardly sings his praises.


https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/the-media-isnt-jeremy-corbyns-problem-his-personality-is-a7331021.html


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Subject: RE: BS: UK party conferences
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Sep 18 - 02:56 PM

Personality - really !!
Is that what politics is to you?
Maybe it's time fpr "Westminster's Got Talent"
Personality or not, Corbyn, stll a relative newcomer, has turned British politics round, won masses of support in his own party, increased its mebreship beyond all expectations and forced the Tories to rely on Bribing an iffy party to stay in Government
Give me principles above "personality" any day
NOT PURELY MY VIEW

IRISH VIEW PROBABLY OF NO INTEREST TO SOME


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Subject: RE: BS: UK party conferences
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Sep 18 - 03:00 PM

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/jun/16/a-shock-to-the-system-how-jeremy-corbyn-changed-the-rules-of-british-politics

RULE CHANGER

FURTHER AFIELD

Just think what he would have achieved if had had "personality!!

You are joking, aren't you
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: UK party conferences
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Sep 18 - 03:00 PM

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/jun/16/a-shock-to-the-system-how-jeremy-corbyn-changed-the-rules-of-british-politics

RULE CHANGER

FURTHER AFIELD

Just think what he would have achieved if had had "personality!!

You are joking, aren't you
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: UK party conferences
From: Iains
Date: 25 Sep 18 - 03:24 PM

"jeremy-corbyn-changed-the-rules-of-british-politics"

How's That? He is still in opposition and the local council elections in May were hardly a landslide. And the labour conference is hardly a study in peace and light.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK party conferences
From: Raggytash
Date: 25 Sep 18 - 03:31 PM

For crying out lous Iains, if there is one party who have VERY serious divisions it is the Conservative party.

Some opt for remain, some opt for a"soft" Brexit, some favour the "Chequers" proposal, some want a "hard" Brexit, some want a "no deal' Brexit.

That is just the divisions on ONE topic and the most worrying part of of that is they are the party in power.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK party conferences
From: Iains
Date: 25 Sep 18 - 03:48 PM

Just think how much worse it would be if Corbyn and his clots were in charge. They do not know if they even have a position on brexit!


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Subject: RE: BS: UK party conferences
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 25 Sep 18 - 04:13 PM

Right, twats.

I do not use the words "fuck" or "fucking" ever on this forum. But I am, just for this one post (Jesus forgive me), going to make a glorious exception. A glorious FUCKING exception. So fucking stand by for fucking blasting, you fucking eejits. Are you fucking ready? Right. Here I fucking go:

Do NOT respond in any fucking way, fucking shape, or fucking form, to ANYFUCKINGTHING that those two inveterate fuckers, fucking Keith and fucking Iains, ever fucking post. Do NOT fucking give the fuckers the fucking succour of your fucking attention whatsofuckingever. Just completely fucking ignore the fucking fuckers. Fucking do as I fucking say and these two no-good, fucking demented fuckpigs will get so fucking fed up that they will eventually fuck off. It may fucking take fucking time but it'll be fucking worth it. And Jim, this means you. It means all of us, for fuck's fucking sake, but Jim, it fucking especially means you.

Right. All fuck off back to your fucking 'oles...

I'm just off to confession now. First time in forty fucking years. Is there a clean fucking priest about...?


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Subject: RE: BS: UK party conferences
From: Raggytash
Date: 25 Sep 18 - 04:22 PM

I seem to recall I suggested such a thing about a year ago.

Since December I have replied directly to one particular poster, very politely, on ONE occasion.

Much as I find Nigel and Iains to be diametrically opposed to me on most subjects they do, occasionally, post something of merit.

Unlike the other one.

If Iains would refrain from his abuse it would help matters a great deal.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK party conferences
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 25 Sep 18 - 04:40 PM

Nah! Don't agree! He's a useless git who we should totally ignore even when he's "trying" to be nice and "trying" to be normal. It will ALWAYS end in tears. He's burned his bridges a thousand times over. Just look at his last week's "contributions." I bloody wish the mods would. He's pure poison, mate. Still...


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Subject: RE: BS: UK party conferences
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 25 Sep 18 - 04:49 PM

i really wish you'd stop fighting and talk about the conference.

i think its really fascinating, and the whole situation is in flux and its anyones guess what happens next.

will corbyn promise a second referendum - will may risk another election...

bloody fascinating!


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Subject: RE: BS: UK party conferences
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 25 Sep 18 - 06:20 PM

The absolute LAST thing Labour need is a GE. Why should they clear up the Tories' mess? The Tories got us into this whole Brexit disaster, let them see it through to the bitter end. Then, when the electorate realise what a bunch of bell-ends the Tories are, and how they've completely shafted all but the most wealthy, they will be unelectable for a generation at least.

Every cloud has a silver lining.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK party conferences
From: Raggytash
Date: 25 Sep 18 - 07:11 PM

I suspect you may be right Backwoodsman, who would want to take on the poisoned chalice of Brexit.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK party conferences
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Sep 18 - 08:00 PM

"Just think how much worse it would be if Corbyn and his clots were in charge."
Rather than your stupidly abusive comments you really need to come to terms with what is happening to British Politics
Brexit is a shambles - the government can no longer rely on support from its own MPs, the alternatives to May are infinitely worse and they don't dare hold a second referendum because that would be the end of the Conservative Party so Britain is faced with (at the very least) an uncertain economic future
You're kippered, good and proper and all you are able to to is hurl stupid, chidiah insults
You fool nobody but yourself
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: UK party conferences
From: Iains
Date: 25 Sep 18 - 08:13 PM

"the alternatives to May are infinitely worse "

Thus You agree Corbyn is a clot.

What on earth are you complaining about then?


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Subject: RE: BS: UK party conferences
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Sep 18 - 02:09 AM

I can bloomin' say no bloomin' more about that bloomin' issue, except to bloomin' say that what I blinkin' said hasn't blinkin' worked as yet. Jim's still blinkin' at it and the flippin' oddie squaddie is still getting his flippin' rocks off on it. And Al, I'm flippin' trying. Your flippin' tactic is to tell it flippin' straight and I'm flippin' with you, but it hasn't blasted worked as blasted yet so I'm just blasted trying something blasted different to get us back on blasted track. Just heard that flamin' buffoon Graham flamin' Stringer sanctiflaminmoniously telling us what a flamin' democrat he is for wanting to "respect" the referendum result. Well I flamin' think that there was nothing democratic about that flamin' referendum to flamin' respect. It was just about the most undemocratic bleedin' process I've ever had the misfortune to witness in our politics. So bugger that!


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Subject: RE: BS: UK party conferences
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 26 Sep 18 - 02:19 AM

"Mr. Churchill, the last thing you need is to become PM now. Why should you clear up Mr. Chamberlain's mess. Let him see it through to the bitter end, let that Mr. Hitler take over the country. Then people will see that you were right, and Mr. Chamberlain will be out of power for a generation."


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Subject: RE: BS: UK party conferences
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 26 Sep 18 - 02:29 AM

Apples v. Oranges.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK party conferences
From: Mr Red
Date: 26 Sep 18 - 03:10 AM

the faithful spout faith to the faithfull.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK party conferences
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Sep 18 - 03:22 AM

The Tories won't stop brexit but Labour could well put a spanner in the works. Risky.

A general election would, in my view, put the Tories back in. I don't think people will vote for change, including for a Labour Party that's split, in times of turnoil. Risky. However, we live in interesting times. But go for the election anyway, say I.

A rerun of the referendum (which is how the brexit brigade would portray it) would, at best, yield a close result for remain, which I don't think would solve anything at all in the long term. Risky!

What I'd like to see and what I've hoped for isn't going to happen, a sudden influx of common sense into our political class that would make everyone see that brexit is going to ruin this country and must be reversed, a huge consensus. Unfortunately, most politicians are more worried watching their backs than acting in the national interest.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK party conferences
From: Iains
Date: 26 Sep 18 - 03:47 AM

A forced general election would trash the present Labour party. Bring it on I say!

A new poll by BMG Research for Huffington Post has found that just 16% of Brits favour remaining in the EU when presented with all the options

Sky News has found that 71% of people think Jeremy Corbyn is not competent to negotiate Brexit, compared to just 22% thinking he is competent. Views of the Labour Party as a whole aren’t much better, with 68% of people thinking the party is not competent, and just 25% thinking it is.

YouGov have found that more people see the Labour Party as racist than the Tories. Despite his repeated claims to be an “anti-racist campaigner”, twice as many Brits think Jeremy Corbyn is racist (20%) than think the same for Theresa May (11%).

The same poll found that 30% of Brits think Jeremy Corbyn is an anti-Semite, compared to just 5% who believe Theresa May to be. Intriguingly, the same number of Brits see Theresa May and Jeremy Corbyn as Islamophobic, at 9% each…

and the loony left are still convinced they have the dream ticket!
Or perhaps, judging by some of the hysterics above, reality is slowly intruding into the bubble of myth, fantasy and dream weaving they like to surround themselves with.

Upward and Onward (as they say!)


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Subject: RE: BS: UK party conferences
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 26 Sep 18 - 03:52 AM

I think you're pretty much spot-on there Steve.

The entire barrage of smears and distortions being directed at Labour in general, and JC in particular, is a carefully orchestrated campaign by the Tory media to turn the heads of feeble-minded, easily-influenced people - precisely the kind who read their rags - away from the real issues, and to convince them that this car-crash of a government, with its incompetence and internal civil war, is their only option in an election. For that reason, I'm pretty sure that, despite the unholy mess they have made of the past eight years, the Tories would get in again.

I think, like you, that another referendum would be a fruitless exercise. If it were to be run on the same basis as the previous one, I'm convinced it would be very close again, with possibly a small majority for Remain (although that's far from being a foregone conclusion) - certainly nothing like the landslide that would be needed in order to even begin to persuade the Brexiteers that they were wrong the first time. And that would cause more Trouble at t'Mill.

So I say, let them as got us up shit creek get us back down it again. It's always been Labour's lot, a millstone round the party-neck, that every time they come to power, they have Tory shit to clean up, and they become unpopular as a result of the stink that carrying out that cleansing causes.

Let the Tories wipe their own filthy arses.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK party conferences
From: Iains
Date: 26 Sep 18 - 04:01 AM

Labour betraying its heartlands.
It will end in tears!


http://www.thejournal.ie/labour-conference-2-4254343-Sep2018/


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Subject: RE: BS: UK party conferences
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Sep 18 - 04:29 AM

Labour vote for a second referendum - absolutely wonderful
Labour's traditional "heartland" is the workers who set it up in the first place
And who is the most likely to have to carry the can back after this fiasco.... no prizes
Every single aspect of the life of working people in Britain will ve affected adversely by this death-wish policy
Jim Carroll

STRAIGHT FROM THE HORSE'S MOUTH
MORE HORSE TALK
MORE STILL
AND YET MORE

Medicine shortages
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-no-deal-food-medicine-shortage-doomsday-armageddon-david-davis-a8381076.html
EDUCATION


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Subject: RE: BS: UK party conferences
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 26 Sep 18 - 04:37 AM

Well I don't understand how Corbyn is going to innovate 400 thousand new jobs without subsidies which are forbidden under EU regulations. Even such small subsidies that we did use to prime the pump of our economy had to stop once we joined the Common Market.

Perhaps he is relying on us leaving the EU. In which case, maybe someone should point that out to his Momentum buddies - he's going to do the dirty on them.

White bearded man speaks with forked tongue. Still that's not unusual with politicians.

Sad to see Dennis Skinner with his head in his hands. I think , maybe like me, he sees Corbyn marching with ten league boots away from consensus politics. A second referendum, could be the equivalent of KInnocks CND defence policy less than a year after the Falklands.

But we have to see....all such fun!!


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Subject: RE: BS: UK party conferences
From: Iains
Date: 26 Sep 18 - 04:44 AM

"It's always been Labour's lot, a millstone round the party-neck,"

What a wonderfully apt description. Labour has always had a millstone around its neck.
It is the millstone of failed economic policies,that like the Norwegian
millstone of legend, grinds into a maelstrom of chaos and despair.
Each time the valiant Tories ride in like King Arthur and save the deeply oppressed population.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK party conferences
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Sep 18 - 04:58 AM

Meaningless rhetoric Iains
Address the adverse effects of Brexit


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Subject: RE: BS: UK party conferences
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Sep 18 - 04:58 AM

Meaningless rhetoric Iains
Address the adverse effects of Brexit


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Subject: RE: BS: UK party conferences
From: Iains
Date: 26 Sep 18 - 05:12 AM

How can adverse effects of a future event be discussed by a rational person?
Do we use tea leaves, chicken bones, or other methods of divination and augury?
And as stevie blunder would say: There is nothing wrong with my rhetoric. Unlike you, I spent a year in that class.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK party conferences
From: Iains
Date: 26 Sep 18 - 05:40 AM

That's a hoot!


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Subject: RE: BS: UK party conferences
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 26 Sep 18 - 05:41 AM

You keep falling for it lads. He must be laughing his socks off!


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Subject: RE: BS: UK party conferences
From: Iains
Date: 26 Sep 18 - 06:11 AM

Interim report from the Labour party conference:
The most prolific phrase used: WE MUST!!

Needless to say the other essential ingredient, HOW?
or HOW MUCH? had no   role in the ensuing spiel.

No Surprises there then!


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Subject: RE: BS: UK party conferences
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Sep 18 - 06:38 AM

"How can adverse effects of a future event be discussed by a rational person?"
Because rational people put them us as serious predictions
If you are unable to di so what are you doing here - as far as I can see, just throwing stones and running away

"without subsidies which are forbidden under EU regulations"
That is presuming -
a That the decision to leave will be reversed
and
c Corbyn doesn't decide to go the way he appears to be going to go and reform society by making those who have pay and re-introducing nationalisation - he's already promised that for the railways, why not other industries (what's left of them)
The point is that society is repidly crumbling and can no longer cater for the less well-off
Any Party that is prepared to accept that situation is not worth voting for.
The world will either swing to the extreme right or the left to address the situation - the right are already on the move
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: UK party conferences
From: Iains
Date: 26 Sep 18 - 07:18 AM

The problem is that ,as you state, they are predictions. Many of those predictions are by those that have an agenda to follow. All those little wobbles on the pound caused by brexit scare stories, you can bet someone, somewhere is cleaning up, assuming they had advanced knowledge of the story. Likewise scare stories of industrial relocation, or stalled output. Those little ripples on the stock market all represent winners and losers. I wonder who, if anyone, is policing all this manipulation? For criminals it has made every day Christmas day.
Blundering around in all this is Corbyn. Is he naive, stupid, or extremely cunning? He appears to indicate this one day, that another. Trying to pin the man down is like scooping water with a sieve.
Brexit is not simply a political decision, there are many other big players involved,all busy imposing their soundbites and written articles. There is no neutrality in what we are allowed to see or hear. We Politely call it spin is because everyone is unwilling to call it blatant censorship and crude propaganda.
Big business and politicians sorely miscalculated, we voted for out brother out. The gentle trip into the United Serfs of Europe hit a rock, capsized and then blew up and the debris is still falling. Hence the lack of a unified strategy to deal with the aftermath. Everything is pulling in different directions and the only clear thing that I see is that many MPs are woefully out of step with the wishes of their electorate. Should an election be called someone like Farage or similar could give both parties a severe drubbing.
Ignoring the little people seems to be trait of modern politics, but it is the little people that put bums on seats in Westminster. It behoves the elected to remember they are beholden to the electorate, For many this realisation will come too late


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Subject: RE: BS: UK party conferences
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 26 Sep 18 - 07:39 AM

what little people.....leprechauns? goblins?

You could on to something Iains....i've been ignoring them for years!


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Subject: RE: BS: UK party conferences
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 26 Sep 18 - 08:06 AM

Steve, a rerun of the referendum or a parliamentary vote to delay things would enable brexit to be kicked a way down the road. Then demographics, would do the rest.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK party conferences
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 26 Sep 18 - 08:30 AM

you gotta admit...its interesting. even if you don't have a horse in the race.

i think what i like about it is that Corbyn , May etc are really intelligent people. And its interesting what they're going to do and say and respond.

i'm so glad Trump isn't our boss.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK party conferences
From: Iains
Date: 26 Sep 18 - 09:18 AM

"Then demographics, would do the rest."

But people age. And as Lloyd George reputedly said said:

"A young man who isn’t a socialist hasn’t got a heart; an old man who is a socialist hasn’t got a head."

and we must remember that Winston Churchill said:
"There are two places only where socialism will work; In Heaven where it is not needed, and in Hell where they already have it.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK party conferences
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Sep 18 - 09:30 AM

Famulous speech by Corbyn at the Conference - here's hoping he isn't another Tory-ci-Blairite 'all wind and piss merchant'
For all his "lack of personality" he's one of the most inspiring speakers I've heard
Must have been taking lessons from Rees Mogg eh !!!
THE RIGHT'S DREAM TEAM
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: UK party conferences
From: Iains
Date: 26 Sep 18 - 09:42 AM

The EU is extremely worried:
Corbyn is expected in Brussels on Thursday to meet the EU’s chief negotiator, Michel Barnier, to explain his position. But there is growing concern that Labour’s determination to unseat May could instead propel UK into a “cliff-edge” Brexit, throwing the continent into chaos.

On Tuesday Barnier, gave a downbeat analysis of the state of the negotiations during a private meeting with MEPs.

Afterwards, the leader of the Greens in the European parliament, Philippe Lamberts, told the Guardian: “I have zero trust in Labour, I am afraid to say. The Labour position is not to do with principles, but about tactical considerations. It is all about getting the government out of power whatever the cost.”


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Subject: RE: BS: UK party conferences
From: Iains
Date: 26 Sep 18 - 12:56 PM

Labour will double offshore wind farms


https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2018/09/26/labour-will-double-number-onshore-windfarms-jeremy-corbyn-announce/

http://notrickszone.com/2016/02/02/offshore-offshore-wind-turbine-maintenance-costs-100-times-more-expensive-than-new-turbine-it

Another fine mess you want to get us into Corbyn.
Seems as good a place as any other to waste money. Just shake the branches of the labour loon magic money tree, eeh?


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Subject: RE: BS: UK party conferences
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Sep 18 - 02:01 PM

Great conference - great statements on Antisemitism and Palestine - standing ovations all round
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: UK party conferences
From: Mr Red
Date: 26 Sep 18 - 02:53 PM

A new poll by BMG Research for Huffington Post has found that just 16% of Brits favour remaining in the EU when presented with all the options hand-picked options maybe. "All" should mean the ones you hadn't thought of, & unintended consequences. Those willing to listen would fall asleep or just give in if you could list all the options. There is not enough time in one life!

Only the old the swivel-eyed right and loony left would hang on to their mistakes. And put fallacious spin on them. That's the problem with common sense, it is not that common and doesn't make sense to the evangelical.

16% of which planet? Geeze, can we get back to the real world?


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Subject: RE: BS: UK party conferences
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Sep 18 - 04:18 PM

As conference speeches go, Jim, it was a blinder. And I think he's gone a fair way towards uniting the party and sidelining those bitter ex-Blairites. He also did a fair amount to dispel that grey-man, grey-beard, allotmenteer, bike-rider image that the right-wing press and the more feeble-minded Mudcat denizens would have us embrace. A damn sight more targeted wit than Sir Vince managed and that I'm rock-solid certain Theresa will achieve. However, it's just a conference speech at the end of the day. He didn't have anyone heckling to ask where the dough was coming from. That's fine, but he has questions to answer on that score, no messing. As for Palestine, brilliant and fearless. As for antisemitism, he addressed the issue honestly, straightforwardly and without trepidation. You CAN go to town criticising the Israeli regime, You CAN go to town on the illegal settlements and the proclaiming of Jerusalem as the capital of the Jews and you CAN go to town on the mass slaughter of unarmed civilians on the Gaza border. And you CAN go to town on all those depredations without being branded antisemitic. And Jonathan bloody Sacks can go to hell, despite the kneejerk calls of even allegedly decent papers for Jezza to "apologise" to him.

Maybe one day I'll tell you what I really think...


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Subject: RE: BS: UK party conferences
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 26 Sep 18 - 04:39 PM

And if that's how you interpret the speech - lets hope no one else does. Or we're SO fucked!

Corbyn is trying to smooth over things.

Try going to town on the implacable enemies of Israel who stabbed a policeman outside our Houses of Parliament.

Or if you can't manage that. Maybe you could give the guy a break, by not stirring the shit for a while.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK party conferences
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Sep 18 - 04:51 PM

Try that again, Al, maybe when you get over your distemper. As I said, at the end of the day it was just a conference speech. Did you catch me saying that or not, Al? Maybe you'll tell us, one day, constructively for a bloody change, what you really want, instead of trashing everyone and everything whilst giving us not a scrap of any idea of your alternative. I live in hope.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK party conferences
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Sep 18 - 05:02 PM

And, for Al's information, here's Wiki on the attack he referred to:

"Masood reportedly said in a final text message that he was waging jihad in revenge for Western military action in Muslim countries in the Middle East. Amaq News Agency, which is linked to Islamic State, said the attacker answered the group's calls to target citizens of states that are fighting against it, though the claim was questioned by the UK police and government. Police have found no link with a terrorist organisation and believe Masood acted alone."

Any more bullshit you want to make up, Al?


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Subject: RE: BS: UK party conferences
From: Iains
Date: 26 Sep 18 - 05:13 PM

Someone having a bad day?


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Subject: RE: BS: UK party conferences
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 26 Sep 18 - 09:03 PM

Well I thought Corbyn was trying for a period of rapprochement with the Jewish community - many of whom think of Israel as a spiritual home and a guarantee of their right to have somewhere in the world that can be a refuge - should the nazis or pogroms start up in their country.

This was interpreted by you as:-

'You CAN go to town criticising the Israeli regime, You CAN go to town on the illegal settlements and the proclaiming of Jerusalem as the capital of the Jews and you CAN go to town on the mass slaughter of unarmed civilians on the Gaza border. And you CAN go to town on all those depredations without being branded antisemitic. And Jonathan bloody Sacks can go to hell, despite the kneejerk calls of even allegedly decent papers for Jezza to "apologise" to him. '

Shall we say a slight difference of emphasis.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK party conferences
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Sep 18 - 02:24 AM

Well, Al, Corbyn trod a careful yet confident line which will fail to satisfy only those who would refuse to be satisfied even by the most abject grovelling. That is not what we need. We need to be able to support the Palestinian cause openly if we want to, and to utterly condemn the actions of the Israeli regime in discriminating against non-Jews in their own country, Arabs in particular, in illegally annexing land for settlements and in maintaining an inhuman siege that effectively imprisons almost two million people in terrible conditions. So you think we can't say those things or that saying them out loud is somehow damaging. Well, frankly, it's far more damaging to be cowed into silence about blatant injustices committed by just one side whilst feeling free to excoriate the other, as inaccurately as you like in your case. Just open your eyes to the REALITY of what is going on. You are quite open in your loose talk about the implacable enemies of the Israeli people but you're scathing about any criticism of the Israeli regime. Well we get quite a lot of that here, don't we? Review Jezza's speech and tell me, precisely and in quotes, what he said that was antisemitic. Review what I've just said in this post and tell me, precisely and in quotes, what I've said that is antisemitic. AND WHY YOU THINK SO. Not an order, just an invitation.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK party conferences
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Sep 18 - 02:26 AM

By the way, Corbyn did say all those things in his speech that I put in my post. No difference in emphasis.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK party conferences
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 27 Sep 18 - 02:43 AM

I don't think we're doing the Labour Party any favours arguing about it.

You do.

That's the main difference.

The people on this forum are much too fond of screaming insults, rather than looking areas on which we can agree.

Corbyn wouldn't have mentioned the subject, if he wasn't trying to keep the Jewish vote on board. Try to respect his ambition to get elected.
There are circumstances when frequently expressed righteous indignation is counter productive and a complete piss off.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK party conferences
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Sep 18 - 02:45 AM

If you say so. I'm just wondering which of the two of us is supposed to have indulged in it, that's all.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK party conferences
From: Iains
Date: 27 Sep 18 - 02:48 AM

Labour can now officially be called the loon party. Instead of speeches by statesTGB?????, we are given speeches, even labelled by the EU, as naked opportunism (otherwise known as Machiavellianism, unscrupulousness) The EU is more scared of Corbyn than Putin!

Makes a person proud to be a non member of the sorry shower.

A non partisan view:

https://www.express.co.uk/comment/expresscomment/1023447/Corbyn-was-trite-long-winded-and-oozed-hypocrisy

and I have to thank my mate Guido for leading me to this gem:
https://www.conservativewoman.co.uk/corbyn-unveils-labour-time-machine-to-change-the-past/

But before Labour can carry out its Per Ardua ad Astra stunt it needs a reliable source of fairy dust!


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Subject: RE: BS: UK party conferences
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Sep 18 - 02:50 AM

Incidentally, imagine the righteous indignation all over the media had he NOT mentioned the issue. If he was trying to keep the Jewish community on board, he was doing it by being straightforward and honest about Labour's recent issues and about how Labour is the inclusive and natural home of all races and ethnic groups and minorities. Which it is and always was.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK party conferences
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Sep 18 - 04:17 AM

"Corbyn wouldn't have mentioned the subject, if he wasn't trying to keep the Jewish vote on board."
That it totally unfair Al and if you thought about it you'd know it
When the accusations were made Labour held an enquiry and made public the results
Which other prty has done that - certainly not the Tories who were openly accused of serious Islamophobia several ago - that accusation was repeated this year - so far, nothing

No serious problem of antisemitism was found, certainly nont greater than in any other party or political or social group- if you examine the cases, none have specifically been made
What are these serious accusations of "antisemitism" that Labour is guilty of - do you know ?
It's certainly not attacking or denigrating the Jewish People

"Corbyn's ambition to get elected"
What a god-awful phrase
The Labour Party's history is littered with the corpses of past leaders (like Blair) who came in like a fresh breeze and went our like a miasmic fog
Corbyn is worth nothing if he doesn't live up to his promises
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: UK party conferences
From: Iains
Date: 27 Sep 18 - 04:27 AM

From The Slog:
"The most hilariously sad quote of the day came from Jeremy Corbyn in his keynote speech, when he asserted that Labour represents “the new common sense of our times”. It was hard to find any common sense about Brexit, strike action, the economy, the coming Crash, feminism, immigration or, indeed….well, pretty much anything, really.

To make things worse, there were yet more signs of Corbyn the barley-in-the-wind politician shifting his ground to try and make himself electable: the Russians, he now insists, were ‘clearly’ responsible for the Novichok poisonings. His previous stance on this one was that there was no evidence at all linking the Putin-led State to the Skripal caper. He was right then; he is wrong now. But Corbyn’s nose has sniffed the mood of the times, and so he is happy to go with the same risible propaganda from the media he affects to loathe: happy as Larry, in fact, to be on the same side as Boris Johnson, Theresa May and Emmanuel Macron.


Obviously no need to Bring on the Clowns!


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Subject: RE: BS: UK party conferences
From: DMcG
Date: 27 Sep 18 - 05:37 AM

There is a tricky game being played here. I can imagine May brings back a deal, it gets voted down because of Labour, so we end up in no deal.

And guess what, all the difficulties of no-deal "will be Labour's fault, because we brought back a deal that would have avoided all this and Labour blocked it."


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Subject: RE: BS: UK party conferences
From: Iains
Date: 27 Sep 18 - 05:43 AM

and who was silly enough to get boxed into that corner?


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Subject: RE: BS: UK party conferences
From: DMcG
Date: 27 Sep 18 - 05:58 AM

well, that ignores the fact there could only be a rejection of her deal if enough of her party reject it. Labour and the others could not do it because they dont have the numbers.

But the spin will quietly ignore that.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK party conferences
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Sep 18 - 05:58 AM

Labour can't block a deal on its own. They'll need the help of the LibDems and a whole bunch of dissident Tories. What WOULD be bad is if Labour tried to block a deal but failed.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK party conferences
From: DMcG
Date: 27 Sep 18 - 06:04 AM

We cross posted there, Steve. But no matter as we each made a further secondary point.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK party conferences
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Sep 18 - 09:15 AM

The game is changing by the day as far as Brexit is concerned
The Nortehr Ireland authorities, largely supporters on the British Government, have just announced that if Britain crashes out of Europe without a deal they will be unable to guarantee electricity supplies to the Six Counties
It's getting to look like Briain will be leaving Europe against the wishes of a larger number of British people than those who voted for it in the Referendum
Labour needs to keep their ear on the ground rather than go for 'the glittering prizes' of power

Noby will ever know what the British people think about leaving Europe now the consequences of going so have become obvious without a second referendum
Pointing to the first vote is now as undemocratic as it gets
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: UK party conferences
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 27 Sep 18 - 09:54 AM

You need a new keyboard, Jim! :-)


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Subject: RE: BS: UK party conferences
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 27 Sep 18 - 10:07 AM

When the accusations were made Labour held an enquiry and made public the results
Which other prty has done that -


No other party has been swamped with complaints of it from its members, Jews and Gentiles alike.

Most of the complaints came AFTER the enquiry. Have any of the enquiry recommendations been enacted yet?


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Subject: RE: BS: UK party conferences
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Sep 18 - 12:49 PM

"You need a new keyboard, Jim! :-)"

Need more time to post Baccy - I hate gardening

I see Judge Roy Acheson is at it with his hangman's rope again
Maybe he needs to go on the "nobody is above the law" thread and explain why it is not necessary to say what a Party has done before you hang them
Maybe he can explain why the Tories are exempt from holding enquiries into similar accusations and why he isn't up in arms about that
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: UK party conferences
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Sep 18 - 12:55 PM

Though I doubt if he will in either case - he hasn't so far, but why spoil a good lynching with natural justice
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: UK party conferences
From: Iains
Date: 27 Sep 18 - 01:44 PM

"The Nortehr Ireland authorities, largely supporters on the British Government, have just announced that if Britain crashes out of Europe without a deal they will be unable to guarantee electricity supplies to the Six Counties"

Poor little jimmie. dont know where he got that gem from. As usual it is rubbish. Northern Ireland is a net exporter of electricity to the Republic. As a self styled ex sparky you should know these basic facts!

https://www.independent.ie/opinion/comment/ireland-imports-90pc-of-its-oil-and-gas-from-uk-so-energy-must-be-near-top-of-list-of

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/environment/ireland-s-energy-crisis-1.2111299
"Northern Ireland trades electricity with the Republic of Ireland to which it is a net exporter. It also imports electricity from Scotland via the Moyle interconnector"
This was all   spelt out very clearly in a recent thread. I really cannot be bothered to dredge it allup again

Facts jimmy, FACTS


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Subject: RE: BS: UK party conferences
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 27 Sep 18 - 03:32 PM

A gentle reminder, Jim. Just don't fall for it.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK party conferences
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Sep 18 - 03:49 PM

"Just don't fall for it."
Don't have to Dave
We are discussing something that appeared in today's press - totally beond me what a three-year-old article can possibly have to do with a statement put out by the British authorities - can you?
Thanks for the heads up - one day at a time eh!
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: UK party conferences
From: Iains
Date: 29 Sep 18 - 05:08 AM

The loony left and abbacus school of maths.
And you want to elect them???????????????????

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A-grpwftFUw

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZnsZzkizxw8


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Subject: RE: BS: UK party conferences
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Sep 18 - 05:38 AM

IT'S ABOUT TIME WE MOVED AWAY FROM THIS RABID RIGHT IMBECILITY

Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: UK party conferences
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Sep 18 - 05:53 AM

THEE REALITY OF EDUCATION IN BRITAIN
Back to the good old days
https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/editorials/inequality-ifs-report-getting-worse-bank-of-mum-and-dad-class-education-a7888606.html
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: UK party conferences
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Sep 18 - 05:59 AM

Aother home truth
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/child-poverty-increase-children-family-benefit-households-a8268191.html
MORE
IN DETAIL
Planned destruction of health service
https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/nhs-crisis-winter-theresa-may-austerity-cuts-beds-all-going-to-plan-a8154161.html
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: UK party conferences
From: Iains
Date: 29 Sep 18 - 06:29 AM

Labour educashun policy!


https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2017/04/13/one-rule-another-everybody-else-nick-robinson-skewers-angela/

One rule to rule them all, one rule to find them, One rule to bring them all and in the darkness bind them.

snigger, snigger!

https://www.spectator.co.uk/2005/12/why-do-my-labour-friends-send-their-children-to-private-school/


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Subject: RE: BS: UK party conferences
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Sep 18 - 07:28 AM

HOW BRITAIN IS SPREADING ITS INFLUENCE ABROAD

WELCOME TO BRITAIN

HEALTH OF THE 'HEALTH' SERVICE

THE UNITED KINGDOM
https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/north-south-divide-life-expectancy-northern-powerhouse-inequality-opportunities-a7887771.html

Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: UK party conferences
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Sep 18 - 07:39 AM

LABOUR'S PLANS FOR EDUCATION
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: UK party conferences
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 29 Sep 18 - 12:13 PM

My apologies to the people on this thread for leaving abruptly.
I wasn't being rude.
I wrote a detailed reply but the computer ate it, and somehow I thought I'd better do some of the things I'm supposed to be doing - rather than compose it all again.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK party conferences
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Sep 18 - 12:41 PM

Come back Al - all is forgiven
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: UK party conferences
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Sep 18 - 12:41 PM

Come back Al - all is forgiven
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: UK party conferences
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 29 Sep 18 - 01:38 PM

Bit of a cock-up on the Security front at the Tory Conference. Details of names and addresses of ministers, MPs, other attendees, journalists, available on the conference app to any terrorist who cares to take a peek.

Wonder if our resident Troll will be shooting his mouth off about this one the way he did about Labour hangers-on in Westminster without passes?


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Subject: RE: BS: UK party conferences
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 29 Sep 18 - 01:39 PM

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/conservative-party-conference-leak-personal-data-breach-mp-phone-numbers-email-ad


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Subject: RE: BS: UK party conferences
From: Iains
Date: 29 Sep 18 - 02:52 PM

Be interesting ro see what happens to the Guardian hack Dawn Foster.   She logged on as Boris Johnson. She then – illegally in a breach of data protection laws – tweeted out the exploit to all and sundry leading to a massive data breach being opened for it seems about an hour before CCHQ managed to shut down all the personalisation functions.

Oh dear oh dear!


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Subject: RE: BS: UK party conferences
From: bobad
Date: 29 Sep 18 - 04:20 PM

in illegally annexing land for settlements

There are no illegal settlements - unless of course one assumes that Jews should not own property or build in those areas because they are Jews. Every current Jewish "settlement" is on land owned by Jews before 1948 or purchased after 1967. Settlements that tried to set up on land that was not Jewish owned have been dismantled. We continue to hear the term "illegal", but "legal and illegal" has to be more that political desires and interests. It has to refer to law. And, frankly, law established during the illegal Jordanian occupation of the area in which jewish property was confiscated and retitied, and current PA regulations that ban sales or ownership of property by Jews is not valid.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK party conferences
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 Sep 18 - 06:34 AM

From wiki.

The international community considers the establishment of Israeli settlements in the Israeli-occupied territories illegal under international law, because the Fourth Geneva Convention of 1949 prohibits countries from moving population into territories occupied in a war. Israel maintains that they are consistent with international law because it does not agree that the Fourth Geneva Convention applies to the territories occupied in the 1967 Six-Day War. The United Nations Security Council, the United Nations General Assembly, the International Committee of the Red Cross, the International Court of Justice and the High Contracting Parties to the Convention have all affirmed that the Fourth Geneva Convention does apply.

Numerous UN resolutions have stated that the building and existence of Israeli settlements in the West Bank, East Jerusalem and the Golan Heights are a violation of international law, including UN Security Council resolutions in 1979, 1980, and 2016. UN Security Council Resolution 446 refers to the Fourth Geneva Convention as the applicable international legal instrument, and calls upon Israel to desist from transferring its own population into the territories or changing their demographic makeup. The reconvened Conference of the High Contracting Parties to the Geneva Conventions has declared the settlements illegal as has the primary judicial organ of the UN, the International Court of Justice and the International Committee of the Red Cross.


And all that is aside from the human cost to the Palestinians of the usurping of their land.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK party conferences
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 Sep 18 - 06:36 AM

Incidentally, there is no such thing as "Jewish land." In the words of that great self-sufficiency guru John Seymour (as right-wing as they come but still a bit of a hero of mine), no man made the land.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK party conferences
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 Sep 18 - 06:39 AM

So I suppose I contradicted meself a bit just there. To correct the first post, I should say "land lived on by Palestinian people."


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Subject: RE: BS: UK party conferences
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Sep 18 - 07:35 AM

"Incidentally, there is no such thing as "Jewish land." "
Especially as ovr 80% of the citizens of Israel are totally opposed to Israel being declaerd a Jewish State
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: UK party conferences
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 30 Sep 18 - 07:37 AM

An interesting philosophical point. I tend to think, I own the freehold of my house. But in the long run ,none of us own anything. In fact it pisses me off a bit to think my guitars - that I worked and sacrificed for will be being plunked by some other bugger before too long.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK party conferences
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Sep 18 - 08:13 AM

Great starter for ten for Tory Party Conference
The Foriehn Secretary declared the Prime Minister's Brexit plan "deranged" and she is to announce plans for a "Festival of Britain"
That should iron out some of their problems !!
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: UK party conferences
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 30 Sep 18 - 08:56 AM

The Conservative Civil War ratcheting up - wonder if they'll have punch-ups in the hall.
The really are a comedy.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK party conferences
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 30 Sep 18 - 08:58 AM

The Praying Mantis was a disaster on Marr this morning - she looked like a rabbit caught in the headlights, and she kept pulling that strange face she pulls when she's bricking-it and in panic-mode.

Hilarious!


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Subject: RE: BS: UK party conferences
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 Sep 18 - 09:48 AM

I think you should own the land that your house stands on. As for your garden and your farm, or whatever, you have the right to occupy that land (as long as you didn't forcibly drive someone else off it first) because you have tended it, drained it, cultivated it and generally improved it. I don't advocate anarchy. Somebody made your guitar, you maybe, or you paid money to the person who made it (ultimately). But land is different, because you can't make it, and John Seymour's principle is that you can earn the right to occupy land to make your living from it, or get pleasure from it, as long as you don't occupy more than your fair share (he made suggestions as to what that should be, according to the quality of the land) and as long as you are a good steward. That sounds like a good start.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK party conferences
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 30 Sep 18 - 10:14 AM

well that's all very well. but, just imagine...

when I'm dead someone might well play awful things on my guitar.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK party conferences
From: Raggytash
Date: 30 Sep 18 - 10:28 AM

Well Al,

I for one hope fervently that someone plays my guitars after I am gone. No point at all in them gathering dust. In fact I have left my bext guitar to a friend in my will. I know he will cherish it as I do.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK party conferences
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 30 Sep 18 - 10:59 AM

I think that's the problem. I don't actually cherish them, I just sort of play them.

3 yamahas, cheap tele. three ukuleles, cheap 335, tranny amps, much despised Fender acoustic, variax, two the bloke down the road made in his shed.

the lot along a PA system would probably pay for the wife a fortnight in a residential home.

What you invest in an instrument is spiritual. Your domain. Some other clod tramping overboundaries.....its coming!


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Subject: RE: BS: UK party conferences
From: Raggytash
Date: 30 Sep 18 - 11:22 AM

Oh I cherish my Kinkade, it's a joy to play and makes a fantastic sound. The others I like, the Kinkade I love.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK party conferences
From: bobad
Date: 30 Sep 18 - 12:22 PM

The international community considers the establishment of Israeli settlements in the Israeli-occupied territories illegal under international law, because the Fourth Geneva Convention of 1949 prohibits countries from moving population into territories occupied in a war.

The Geneva Conventions DO NOT apply here.
1) Palestine is not a High Contracting Party. Part 1 Article 1 4th Geneva Convention.
2) Jordan's occupation of parts of the former British Mandate (and appropriation into the Hashemite Kingdom of Jordan (1948-1967) WAS illegal and anyway Jordan has since relinquished all claims.
3) The clause you refer to was a response to Nazi atrocities during World War II, specifically mass transfers and deportations to concentration and death camps. This is clear by the documents surrounding the convention and statements by the drafters.
It does not apply here and has never been applied in clear cases where one state transfers civilians to live in occupied territory including China transferring Han Chinese into Tibet and the former Soviet Union transferring ethnic Russians into Latvia, Lithuania and Estonia.
4) Israel has transferred no one. Any Israelis living in the area that was formerly Jordan (48-67) came willingly and of their own free volition


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Subject: RE: BS: UK party conferences
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Sep 18 - 12:50 PM

The only reason Israel has never been tried in the United Nations Internationl Crimes court is because the US has used its veto to prevent it
That is evidence enough that that Israel is a criminal state
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: UK party conferences
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 30 Sep 18 - 12:51 PM

And this is to do with UK party conferences because..?


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Subject: RE: BS: UK party conferences
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 30 Sep 18 - 01:02 PM

I was thinking the same thing, Dave. And I was wondering why the thread OP isn't here ordering Boob-ad to stick to the topic, or Foxtrot Oscar. Maybe it's because he's on the same side as ol' Booby?


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Subject: RE: BS: UK party conferences
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 30 Sep 18 - 01:14 PM

Yes I sometimes wish I was one of these guys who feel great affection and have a duster in their case. I suppose its an omission in my personality .

I just want to be a good guitarist before I die. Sometimes I wished I lived in a finca in the wilds of Spain. Look out on the terraces of olive trees on the mountain opposite me, and play. No audiences. no gigs. Just finally get the f---ing thing right.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK party conferences
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Sep 18 - 01:25 PM

"And this is to do with UK party conferences because..?"
I'm assuming, as Bobad raised it, that he's making sure Israel's campaign of smearing the Labour Party doesn't fall by the wayside
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: UK party conferences
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 30 Sep 18 - 04:03 PM

Well do we have to be dictated to by political parties? We can decide what we think their conferences are about. We don't have to accept their evaluation of what they're talking about, do we?

I mean Steve's hit on the crux of the matter. Both the Israelis and the Palestinians have laid claims to a chunk of land. Ownership is an odd sort of abstract spiritual thing.

Political parties are gross materialistic devices. They're about as clever a way for divining such matters as gelignite on an ATM machine.

The party conferences have always represented worst aspects of English prejudices, as demagogues compete to think up the daftest truisms for party faithful.

Can we help it if we rise effortlessly above such utter bollocks?


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Subject: RE: BS: UK party conferences
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Oct 18 - 04:28 AM

"Ownership is an odd sort of abstract spiritual thing."
A massive oversimplification Al
It's nothing to do with 'ownership', it's about your right to stay in your home - go fingd out which national group has HIGHEST NUMBER OF REFUGEES ON THE PLANET
Thatcher was the one who turned homes into commodities rather than places to live
THIS IS HOW IT SHOULD BE
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: UK party conferences
From: Iains
Date: 01 Oct 18 - 06:09 AM

"Thatcher was the one who turned homes into commodities rather than places to live"


Was it not labour first proposed selling off local authority housing stock?
Was it not labour that built an average of 562 council houses per year. And Mrs Thatcher's Conservatives? 41,343.?

Facts dear boy, FACTS! not flights of fancy or extremely dodgy rhetoric


"The Labour Party initially proposed the idea of the right of tenants to own the house they live in, in their manifesto for the 1959 general election which they subsequently lost"


So the reality is Labour first moneterized housing stock under public ownership, and further drove up its value by a creating a paucity of further newbuilds!

Not exactly a shining testament to times of socialist misrule, is it?


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Subject: RE: BS: UK party conferences
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 01 Oct 18 - 06:11 AM

Excellent letter in today's Guardian. I think I that the accusation of "systematic reporting failures" fully applies also to Corbyn's enemies on this forum. I don't suppose for one minute that the list of signatories will impress them. Or that they'll even bother to read the letter at all when they see the list. That's what blind prejudice is all about.

We have long had serious concerns about the lack of due impartiality and accuracy in the reporting of allegations of antisemitism against Jeremy Corbyn and the Labour party. The recent report by the Media Reform Coalition examining coverage of Labour’s revised code of conduct on antisemitism shows that we are right to be concerned.

The research examined over 250 articles and broadcast news segments and found over 90 examples of misleading or inaccurate reporting. In relation to the IHRA definition of antisemitism that was at the heart of the dispute, the research found evidence of “overwhelming source imbalance” in which critics of Labour’s code of conduct dominated coverage, with nearly 50% of Guardian reports, for example, failing to include any quotes from those defending the code or critiquing the IHRA definition. Moreover, key contextual facts about the IHRA definition – for example that it has only been formally adopted by eight countries (and only six of the IHRA member states) – were consistently excluded.

The researchers conclude these were not occasional lapses in judgment but “systematic reporting failures” that served to weaken the Labour leadership and to bolster its opponents within and outside of the party.

It is of course entirely appropriate and necessary for our major news outlets to report on the horrors of antisemitism, but wrong to present it as an issue specific to the Labour party.

In covering the allegations that Labour is now “institutionally antisemitic”, there have been inaccuracies, clear distortions and revealing omissions across our most popular media platforms. We believe that significant parts of the UK media have failed their audiences by producing flawed reports that have contributed to an undeserved witch-hunt against the Labour leader and misdirected public attention away from antisemitism elsewhere, including on the far right, which is ascendant in much of Europe.

Prof Noam Chomsky
Brian Eno
Francesca Martinez
Yanis Varoufakis
Ken Loach
Raoul Martinez
Justin Schlosberg Birkbeck, University of London
Prof Des Freedman Goldsmiths, University of London
Prof Imogen Tyler Lancaster University
Prof Aeron Davis Goldsmiths, University of London
Prof Annabelle Sreberny Soas, University of London
Prof Greg Philo University of Glasgow
Prof Natalie Fenton Goldsmiths, University of London
Prof David Miller Bristol University
Prof David Hesmondhalgh University of Leeds
Prof James Curran Goldsmiths, University of London
Prof Julian Petley Brunel University
Stephen Cushion Cardiff University
Jason Hickel Goldsmiths, University of London
Einar Thorsen Bournemouth University
Mike Berry Cardiff University
Tom Mills Aston University
Jenny Manson Jewish Voice for Labour
Leah Levane Jewish Voice for Labour
Lindsey German Stop the War Coalition
Mike Cushman Free Speech on Israel
Glyn Secker Jewish Voice for Labour


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Subject: RE: BS: UK party conferences
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Oct 18 - 07:09 AM

THanks for that Steve - it really is about time somebody said that
That reads like Einstein's warning

"Was it not labour first proposed selling off local authority housing stock?"
Right wing labour made it an option for council tenants who could aford it
Thatcher used it to destroy the concept of social housing

THIRD OF EX-COUNCIL HOMES OWNED BY RICH LANDLORDS

THATCHER'S POLICIES HIT THE POOREST
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: UK party conferences
From: Iains
Date: 01 Oct 18 - 07:14 AM

What the pointy heads say is an irrelevance. It is the electorate need to be persuaded and at the last count51% were not!


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Subject: RE: BS: UK party conferences
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Oct 18 - 08:10 AM

RACISM TH DECIDING FACTOR
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: UK party conferences
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 01 Oct 18 - 08:30 AM

Yet the leave side vehemently deny that their votes were largely predicated on racist sentiments. Well they would, wouldn't they. No-one likes to be called a racist, not even racists.

"I'm not a racist, but..."


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Subject: RE: BS: UK party conferences
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 01 Oct 18 - 09:44 AM

That article from June 2017 sounds like psychobabble with its use of "feeling thermometers."
Also, we have a Brexit thread running so why post it here??

And I was wondering why the thread OP isn't here ordering Boob-ad to stick to the topic, or Foxtrot Oscar

Jim's assertion that Jewish agents within the Labour Party have been lying on behalf of Israel to discredit Labour in and out of conference would make the issue relevant.
It must be said that such an assertion directly contravenes the IHRA definition of anti-Semitism.
Note Jim, I am not saying you are a racist bigot, but according to IHRA you are.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK party conferences
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Oct 18 - 11:43 AM

"Jewish agents "
If you identify the Jewish people with ISRAELI AGENTS
you are an antisemite in the extreme - even according to the IHRA definition
Holding Jews collectively responsible for actions of the state of Israel.
But we knew that anyway
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: UK party conferences
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Oct 18 - 11:43 AM

"Jewish agents "
If you identify the Jewish people with ISRAELI AGENTS
you are an antisemite in the extreme - even according to the IHRA definition
Holding Jews collectively responsible for actions of the state of Israel.
But we knew that anyway
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: UK party conferences
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Oct 18 - 11:52 AM

Ref
Subject: RE: BS: UK party conferences
From: Steve Shaw - PM
Date: 01 Oct 18 - 06:11 AM

Jewish anti semites, I suppose
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: UK party conferences
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Oct 18 - 11:56 AM

TORY ANTISEMITISM YOU HAVE REFUSED TO CONDEMN
Don't you ever call me an anti-semite while you support this garbage with your silence
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: UK party conferences
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 01 Oct 18 - 12:23 PM

Philip Hammond still trying to blame the last Labour government for the Tories' dismal performance on the economic front. Boasted that they've reduced the Deficit from 10% of GDP in 2010 to just over 2%. Completely forgot to mention that, in eight years, theyve borrowed more than the total of all borrowing by all Labour governments ever. Did manage to say, several times though, that the Tories are the party of 'economic competence'.

In yer dreams....


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Subject: RE: BS: UK party conferences
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 01 Oct 18 - 03:24 PM

Its not an over simplification. Ownership is a very profound concept.

Think of it in terms of animals.

The buffalo have a home in America. The lions and tigers and elephants have a home in Africa.The deer up in Scotland.

No language expresses that. No belief system underpins that.

But we all understand it to some extent.

The sophistry and bullshit originates in us.

And with it comes all the snotty behaviour, bad temper and violence.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK party conferences
From: Raggytash
Date: 01 Oct 18 - 05:05 PM

Is it my imagination but has the Conservative Party conference received far less coverage in the press, to date, than the corresponding Labour conference.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK party conferences
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 01 Oct 18 - 06:27 PM

It's certainly received far less adverse coverage in the press than the Labour conference, Raggy. Wonder how come?


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Subject: RE: BS: UK party conferences
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Oct 18 - 07:25 PM

"Its not an over simplification. Ownership is a very profound concept."
When you are being ethnically cleansed out of your country it is very much an oversimplification Al
"Think of it in terms of animals."
How about thinking of it in terms of human beoings Al - it is nothing whatever to do with oning your land or home - it is more a case of being allowed to stay in your country
Do you honestly believe the millions of refugees wandering the world today are worrying about land or home ownership !!!
The millions who have been forced out of Palestine or Syria..... or wherever, no longer have land or homes they have either been built over tomake room for someone else or have been bombed to rubble
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: UK party conferences
From: bobad
Date: 01 Oct 18 - 07:55 PM

Way more Jews have been ethnically cleansed from Arab lands but hey, they're Jews so let us only bemoan the Arabs who tried to annihilate the Jews and were defeated in their endeavour even though they outnumbered the Jews ten to one. Jew hatred has no bounds,


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Subject: RE: BS: UK party conferences
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Oct 18 - 08:19 PM

A JEWISH HISTORIAN'S VIEW

DETAILED PROOF

TODAY'S SITUATION - TIMES of ISRAEL

Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: UK party conferences
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 02 Oct 18 - 03:39 AM

Directly ripped off from my mate Simon. Sorry Simon - It is just too good.

Theresa May says her Brexit plan isn't dead. Presumably it's pining for the fjords.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK party conferences
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 02 Oct 18 - 04:32 AM

All going really well for the Greedy & Selfish Party.....


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Subject: RE: BS: UK party conferences
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Oct 18 - 04:57 AM

It's certainly a late Brexit plan, Dave. Two years late to be precise. Soon to become an ex-plan, I suspect...


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Subject: RE: BS: UK party conferences
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Oct 18 - 05:40 AM

Excellent piece there, John. Watch the Tories in the next election campaign. Just more bankrupt "policies," appeals to right-wing groups and little-England sentiment, and, most of all, and most useful to Labour, more Corbyn-bashing. They haven't learned, as revealed by the Tories and their fellow-travellers on Mudcat getting more and more hysterical in their searches for any Jezza-dirt they can dig up. The electorate saw through it last time and it's even more transparent this time. Oddly, one thing the Tories HAVE been fairly quiet about is "Labour's antisemitism problem." No need to wonder why!


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Subject: RE: BS: UK party conferences
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Oct 18 - 05:56 AM

Guido Fawkes + Tommy Robinson + National Front + British national Party
I'd say you have a full house there Iains
Beats anything else on the table
Jim Carroll

WHO IS PAUL STAINES (AKA) GUIDO FAWKES?
Who is Paul Staines and why are articles calling him Guido Fawkes showing up in my email inbox? >prisonlawinsideout: Paul Staines (aka) Guido Fawkes sue me and see if I care...: The Guardian 31 May 1986: Tory student leader in ‘ racist ‘ party link / Paul Delarie-Staines of FCS attempts to form pact with British National Party in Hull >By David Rose >A leader of the Federation of Conservative Students wrote to an organiser of the British National Party proposing joint ‘direct action’ to disrupt the meetings of leftwing students. Secrecy, he emphasised, was essential: ‘The Reds would simply go wild if they got to hear of a BNP-FCS link. I would personally be in danger of being expelled from the Conservative Party.’ >The author of the letter is Mr Paul Delarie-Staines, the chairman of the federation’s 50-strong branch at the Humberside college of Higher Education. Mr Delarie-Staines, who is in his first year of a degree course in business information studies, wrote on May 22 to Mr Ian Walker, a BNP organiser in Hull. >He was, he said, against several of the aims of the BNP, which campaigns for the repatriation of black citizens. Several of its members have been convicted of offences under the Race Relations Act, and others for crimes of violence against ethnic minorities. Its leader, Mr John Tyndall, is a former chairman of the National Front. >Mr Delarie-Staines said he did not share the BNP view on immigration: as a member of the ‘libertarian’ faction of the FCS he advocated the free movement of labour, albeit with the caveat that ‘you come here to work - or starve. ‘He went on: ‘I share a lot of your objectives.‘ These included a return to leadership and statesmanship, the abolition of the welfare state, and ‘the elimination of Communism in Britain - the mass media, the trade unions, and the schoolroom. ‘Mr Delaire-Staines continued: ‘Nevertheless, even though we have our differences, I know a lot of BNP people at college do support the FCS (some are members of the FCS). I can certainly envisage some degree of cooperation. >‘For instance, we are moving away from just the normal political debate and towards more direct action - anti-Communist slogans on bridges, disrupting the leftist meetings by posing as leftists and then causing trouble, and also convincing individual leftists of the error of their ways. >‘Perhaps members of the BNP would care to join us in our anti-leftist activities. We can arrange a meeting to discuss possible joint future activities. ‘Other examples of Mr Delaire-Staines work reached the Guardian, including a number of songs. One, entitled FCS Bootboys, reads: ‘Gas them all, gas them all, the Tribune group trendies and all. Crush Wedgwood Benn and make glue from his bones, Burn the broad left in their middle class homes. >‘Yes we’re saying goodbye to the Left, as safe in their graveyards they rest. >‘Cos they’ll get no further, we’ll stop with murder, the bootboys of FCS. >‘In a letter to a friend, Mr Delaire-Staines said that he had been on a ‘community arts course - well. not exactly community arts, more spraypainting a bridge at 3am. Quite good fun really, ducking out of sight of passing police cars’ >Mr Delaire-Staines told the Guardian that he had not meant violence by direct action at leftist meetings, only ‘causing as much noise as possible’. He said that he had tried to forge links with the BNP because ‘we share their anti-Communist view’. >He added: ‘They’re not far-right. They’re just racists, they believe in one colour. ‘Mr John Barrow, the national chairman of FCS and a Lambeth councillor, said that Mr Delaire-Staines was ‘a bit silly. I wouldn’t hold it against him. I’m sure he’ll grow out of it.’ After hearing extracts from the letter to the BNP he added. ‘He’s absolutely right that he’s in danger of being thrown out of the Conservative Party.’Mr James Goodsman, the Conservative Central Office official responsible for the FCS, said: ‘If the evidence comes my way I will certainly look into it.'


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Subject: RE: BS: UK party conferences
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Oct 18 - 06:13 AM

YOU CAN TELL THE MAN THAT BOOZES BY THE COMPANY HE CHOOSES
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: UK party conferences
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 02 Oct 18 - 08:10 AM

yes I think they're thinking , dreaming even of a land where unquestionably they belong.

And ownership is the name we give to that concept.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK party conferences
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Oct 18 - 08:12 AM

Arlene Foster has declared her support for Boris Johnson - yat another match made in heaven
May has triumphantly crowed that they will keep Johnnie Foreigner out which is what it has been about from day one
Iaian has just added Farage to his rapidly growing fascist friends
Perfik!
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: UK party conferences
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 02 Oct 18 - 08:14 AM

De Laire is Staines' second Christian name, he isn't double barrelled and it isn't hyphenated. It was also the second Christian name of his father who is from Uttar Pradesh, and by all accounts a decent chap. Odious little shit that Paul is, he doesn't seem to show any pride in his heritage. Just as he doesn't seem to show any remorse for his bankruptcy and his drink driving convictions.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK party conferences
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Oct 18 - 08:22 AM

Paul Staines influences only those people who are suckers for confirmation bias. He won't change anything or convert anyone. Chill, chaps, and ignore both him and his tawdry little acolyte on this forum.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK party conferences
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Oct 18 - 08:36 AM

2And ownership is the name we give to that concept."
You may Al - most of these people ow nothing
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: UK party conferences
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 02 Oct 18 - 09:48 AM

the words aren't important in themselves.

but they are all we have to convey a concept.

a homeland


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Subject: RE: BS: UK party conferences
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Oct 18 - 10:04 AM

Fine by me Al
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: UK party conferences
From: Iains
Date: 02 Oct 18 - 10:11 AM

Boris the bountiful's speech From your very own guido, the nemesis of the loony left.

https://order-order.com/2018/10/02/read-full-boris-speech-text/#more-302745

AN except:
It would mean that UK business and industry – the entire UK economy – would be exposed perpetually to regulations that might have been expressly designed, at the behest of foreign competitors, to do them down.
It would mean that whatever the EU came up with, banning the sale of eggs by the dozen, banning diabetics from driving, banning vaping, whatever – and all of those have been at least considered by Brussels in the last few years – all of this nonsense we would have to implement with no ability to change or resist.
This is not pragmatic, it is not a compromise. It is dangerous and unstable – politically and economically.
My fellow Conservatives, this is not democracy. This is not what we voted for. This is an outrage.
This is not taking back control: this is forfeiting control.



None of your wishy washy corbyn/abbaccus nonsense here! A fine upstanding speech by a true patriot!


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Subject: RE: BS: UK party conferences
From: Iains
Date: 02 Oct 18 - 10:20 AM

"Chill, chaps, and ignore both him and his tawdry little acolyte on this forum. "

Acolyte = a person assisting a priest in a religious service or procession

What a misguided soul you are Shaw. Guido Fawkes may be many things but I am afraid you are the only one foolish enough to think he is a religion.

and I can assure you, I am acolyte to no one. I was always taught to lead, not follow! How about you?


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This Thread Is Closed.


Mudcat time: 8 August 2:22 AM EDT

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