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BS: The UK Labour Party and Antisemitism.
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Subject: RE: BS: The UK Labour Party and Antisemitism. From: Iains Date: 07 Sep 18 - 04:44 PM "Tommy Robinson oven door banger? Are you trying to say something and lack the courage to state it outright? |
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Subject: RE: BS: The UK Labour Party and Antisemitism. From: Jim Carroll Date: 07 Sep 18 - 03:28 PM That wraps it up for me - a raving Islamophobe and a Tommy Robinson oven door banger defeb#nding Israel and taking a pop at the Labour Party - full circle I think |
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Subject: RE: BS: The UK Labour Party and Antisemitism. From: Dave the Gnome Date: 07 Sep 18 - 02:59 PM I really don't know how it can be made more obvious. The campaign against antisemitism, an organisation with no political affiliations and made up to protect the interest of Jews say supporters of left-wing political parties and supporters of the ‘remain’ camp in the EU referendum all less likely to be antisemitic than those on the right or supporters of the ‘leave’ camp. Neither Jeremy Corbyn not anyone else, apart from the idiots in here, has ever said that antisemitism is exclusively a Labour party problem. The facts state that the right wing are more likely to be antisemitic than those in the left. Yet they still insist on flogging a dead horse. Incredible. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The UK Labour Party and Antisemitism. From: Jim Carroll Date: 07 Sep 18 - 02:38 PM "So what is the point you are attempting to make? " That all the accusations of Labour Antisemitism can be traced back yo Israel, we don't know what that antisemitism consists of, we have no idea od numbers and whatever it is measures small against what is happening in Britain in particular which is a drop in the ocean compared to what is happening worldwide- which is, in its turn, minute compared to the world-wide rise in racism Blaming a single party for the worldwide rise in antisemitism is simply political opportunism - ignoring the racism that is rife in the Tory Party is simply lying Labour has been far from intansgent - it has openly dealt with the early problems and has confirmed its position regarding all racism and bigotry THe rise in all forms of racism is directly related to the rising fortunes of the right - racism and antisemitism is the domain of the right - not the left "Tommy Robinson is as entitled to free speech as you are." With that statement you have sucppered your how case If you believ that, what the fucvk is this all about? If that was true, which it baltentl;y is not - Anybody hating Jews are entitled to express their opinions without persecution Again, my deepest thanks for putting you and your little band exactly where you are - a supporter of hate speech and racism who is prepared to use the Jewish people for political capital What a squalid bunch!! Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: The UK Labour Party and Antisemitism. From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 07 Sep 18 - 02:28 PM Dave, So all this nonsense about it only being the Labour party that has this problem is complete nonsense No. It is a fact. Corbyn himself admits that it is true, and says that people like you who deny it are part of the problem? |
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Subject: RE: BS: The UK Labour Party and Antisemitism. From: Iains Date: 07 Sep 18 - 01:51 PM "So much for the human suffering caused by putting politics before real racism" But! "The Chief Rabbi Ephraim Mirvis said the Jewish community was in a worse position than 12 months ago because at that time it had hope but the position now has “deteriorated”. So what is the point you are attempting to make? It rather seems to me you agree with the proposition that Labour politics/intransigence has made a bad situation worse. So perhaps you would care to explain what on earth you are on about. It would seem you attach any derogatory label to anyone that disagrees with you with zero evidence to back it up. Perhaps you are the racist as it is an epithet you hurl about with gay abandon and zero censure. an Tommy Robinson is as entitled to free speech as you are. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The UK Labour Party and Antisemitism. From: Jim Carroll Date: 07 Sep 18 - 01:41 PM This is now just stonewalling No arguments - no responses whatever - just soapboxing So much for the human suffering caused by putting politics before real racism What can you expect from a ravig Islamophobe and a Tommy Robinson supporter? Ji Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: The UK Labour Party and Antisemitism. From: Iains Date: 07 Sep 18 - 01:35 PM It is only the labour party and it's intransigence that has caused the problem. "The UK Labour Party's ruling body has agreed to adopt in full an international definition of anti-Semitism, after months of rows. It will incorporate all the 11 examples of anti-Semitism cited by the International Holocaust Remembrance Alliance into its code of conduct. But Jewish groups have attacked an accompanying statement agreed by the NEC aimed at protecting free speech. One warned it risked giving "racists a get-out-of-jail card". The only one's mad as a box of frogs are those unable to accept that Labour still has a problem, as exemplified by the frogs hopping about on this thread. And lest we forget the thread title is the UK Labour Party and Antisemitism. If it was supposed to be about the tories and alleged antisemitism it would have been labelled accordingly, doncha think? |
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Subject: RE: BS: The UK Labour Party and Antisemitism. From: Dave the Gnome Date: 07 Sep 18 - 01:17 PM Spot on, Pete. A 2017 survey by the campaign against antisemitism said "men are much more likely to be antisemitic than women, older people are much more likely to be antisemitic than younger people, and people of lower social grades are more likely to be antisemitic than people of higher social grades. Our data also revealed patterns in antisemitism across political divides, with supporters of left-wing political parties and supporters of the ‘remain’ camp in the EU referendum all less likely " So all this nonsense about it only being the Labour party that has this problem is complete nonsense and, as you say, most likely a smoke screen to take attention away from the incompetentbunch of tossers currently infesting Westminster. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The UK Labour Party and Antisemitism. From: robomatic Date: 07 Sep 18 - 01:11 PM Steve: Well, robomatic, he did not attend that ceremony. That ceremony was taking place close to where he was attending something different. Don't believe everything you read, especially when it comes from the pen of an inveterate Corbyn-basher with ulterior motives. I looked at that mural with the bankers before any of this controversy arose, and I got the message, but I didn't think "Jew." My mindset does not accommodate and never has accommodated the concepts of Jews having hooked noses or the concept of Jewish bankers ruling the world or treading all over the working classes. So when I saw the mural I didn't think "Jew." I don't walk round Prestwich and Salford, with their thousands of Jews, and look at people in the street and think "Jew." I think there's something wrong with people who do that. The artist who made that mural had no antisemitic intent. I think if you look at that and see things that it isn't intended to convey then you are simply looking for trouble. In fact, it makes you a damn sight more antisemitic than the person you're accusing. It's you who's walking around with those stereotypes embedded in your brain and you'd better ask yourself why you're harbouring them. Not you personally. It's a bit stiff sometimes to keep typing "one" instead of "you." Steve: I did look at the mural in an earlier thread and made comments at the time. Here and now I was merely linking to an article where someone expressed his feelings over a running sum of Corbyn's actions and sayings. As I've writ earlier I am no UK political person. I am reading up on your politics which of course are substantially different from the US, I get the impression that the UK is a hotbed of radicals and reactionaries who fight like cats and dogs yet can close ranks behind rows of beefeaters during an Imperial ceremony and give the world an impression of centuries long stability. The truth is more like you all ARE a hotbed of cats and dogs but your're stuck there on an island with each other and no one has successfully invaded and taken on that mess for almost a thousand years. As for Corbyn's remarks about Hamas, he has long since expressed, very publicly, his regret for using the words he used. You either accept that or you don't. If you don't, I can't help you. One thing's for sure. Hamas and Hezbollah exist only because of the plight of the Palestinians. There are rotten people in the ranks of both, they frequently carry out wrong-headed actions but there's hardly anyone else speaking up for the Palestinians. That could be our fault for permitting Israel to carry out atrocities with impunity far worse than anything Hamas does, refusing to engage with those speaking up for the Palestinians. The "terrorists" in the IRA of The Troubles are now in government. We had to sit down with them in the end and so a lot of lip-biting. Bit of a learning curve, is history. It's a LOT of history. There has always been someone speaking up for the Palestinians, sometimes some of them have been Israelis. Taking refuge in extremists (tempered by corruption) was a poor choice, in my opinion. Over the long view the Palestinians and those who spoke for them have not opted for compromise. They didn't accept the UN partition plan in 1948 and they somehow threw over a serious proposal in '98. They plain do not accept the existence of Israel. And it's not all on one side. There was real hope before Rabin was assassinated by a radical fundamentalist Jew. But on the whole, the Israelis have gotten on with things and the Palestinians have simply seethed which is their tragedy. As Abba Eban has said "They do not miss an opportunity to miss an opportunity." Mr. Corbyn needs to make that distinction, not merely perceive Israel's successes as those of oppression. Well before the Six Day War Israel was multi-ethnic, diverse and democratic. And the Palestinians were yet seething, and that was PRIOR to Hamas and Hezbollah. And the PLO and the PFLP were hijacking airliners and boats and killing civilians for being JEWISH. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The UK Labour Party and Antisemitism. From: Jim Carroll Date: 07 Sep 18 - 01:00 PM So there we go - racism against Asians doesn't count - how racist Mirvis As Chief Rabbi of Ireland and before the opening of an Israeli Embassy in Ireland, he represented Israel’s interests at government level and in the media. In 1999, he led a group of British rabbis on a solidarity trip to Israel. while deploring the loss of life in Gaza, Mirvis defended Israel's right to protect itself from Hamas rocket attacks,[10] adding that the conflict was used as a cover to voice anti-Semitic sentiment.[11]" An activist on behalf of Israel who supports the murders in Gaza What else is he gong to say? There goes that Israel link again Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: The UK Labour Party and Antisemitism. From: Steve Shaw Date: 07 Sep 18 - 12:53 PM Ephraim Mirvis, from Wiki: "As Chief Rabbi of Ireland and before the opening of an Israeli Embassy in Ireland, he represented Israel’s interests at government level and in the media. In 1999, he led a group of British rabbis on a solidarity trip to Israel...Regarding the 2014 Israel–Gaza conflict, while deploring the loss of life in Gaza, Mirvis defended Israel's right to protect itself from Hamas rocket attacks, adding that the conflict was used as a cover to voice anti-Semitic sentiment. Mad as a box o' frogs. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The UK Labour Party and Antisemitism. From: Iains Date: 07 Sep 18 - 12:25 PM Belfast Telegraph 3 hoursago https://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/uk/archbishop-of-canterbury-wades-into-labour-antisemitism-row-37293162.html "The Chief Rabbi Ephraim Mirvis said the Jewish community was in a worse position than 12 months ago because at that time it had hope but the position now has “deteriorated”. He added: “What we’ve found particularly upsetting is that after three years of inaction during which we have waited for the Labour Party to show they are actually serious about tackling anti-Semitism, now we have found during the past summer they haven’t even known where the starting blocks are, how do you define it.” |
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Subject: RE: BS: The UK Labour Party and Antisemitism. From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 07 Sep 18 - 12:18 PM Pete, so why does Corbyn himself admit that it is true, and say that people like you who deny it are part of the problem? |
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Subject: RE: BS: The UK Labour Party and Antisemitism. From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 07 Sep 18 - 12:17 PM Dave, it goes without saying that there is anti-Semitism everywhere. We are not discussing that. We are discussing Labour's exceptional problem. Pretending not to understand what I refer to does not hide the fact that you have all been shown to be wrong. Again. Labour does have a serious problem that other parties do not have. Pete, i do understand the reasons for all the nonsense though - quite clearly jeremy corbyn presents a real danger to the status quo of unqualified support for the illegal israeli occupation and dreadful treatment of its citizens and neighbours. also it is a very convenient theme to try to distract attention from the mess of the government we have now and in particular their appalling windrush behaviour. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The UK Labour Party and Antisemitism. From: Backwoodsman Date: 07 Sep 18 - 12:13 PM "I don't know why i'm writing this stuff again - if people aren't going to see the bleedin' obvious the first time then they will never do so after subsequent retellings." Quite a few of us do see it and completely agree, Pete. Just the usual, aforementioned few dipshits who either can't or, more likely, won't. And TBH, their feeble, propagandised minds mean they really aren't worth the effort. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The UK Labour Party and Antisemitism. From: peteglasgow Date: 07 Sep 18 - 12:05 PM i have been in the labour party for half my adult life and the trade union movement for all of it. i have not witnessed any anti-semitism and am at a loss to understand what the current tedious nit-picking is referring to. i do understand the reasons for all the nonsense though - quite clearly jeremy corbyn presents a real danger to the status quo of unqualified support for the illegal israeli occupation and dreadful treatment of its citizens and neighbours. also it is a very convenient theme to try to distract attention from the mess of the government we have now and in particular their appalling windrush behaviour. some labour mps love to join in to discredit their leader and the party and then have the nerve to bleat about deselection. i don't know why i'm writing this stuff again - if people aren't going to see the bleedin' obvious the first time then they will never do so after subsequent retellings. as this subject seems to be slipping out of view - (no doubt the press will find somethings else soon (probably the deselection of st frank of hypocrisy)) - maybe we should just pack it in on this site. lots of sound and fury and some creditable detailed research but i'll bet none of us has learned anything new and not one of our closed minds has been opened even a little. move on please. there is plenty of other stuff to squabble about - austerity and 4 million children who we can't afford to feed properly anyone? |
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Subject: RE: BS: The UK Labour Party and Antisemitism. From: Dave the Gnome Date: 07 Sep 18 - 11:53 AM Isn't it funny how someone can change from "So, still no examples of anyone denying that there is antisemitism in the Labour party then. No. Of course not!" to "I was talking about the problem of anti-Semitism in the Labour Party which you have wrongly been denying the existence of for years." All in a mtter of minutes! I suppose it goes to underline the fact that if you ever engage with a word twisting weasel you should not be surprised at, well, twisted words. Back to total ignore mode I think chaps. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The UK Labour Party and Antisemitism. From: Jim Carroll Date: 07 Sep 18 - 11:29 AM "No other party has been shown to have anything approaching it." No other party has attempted to deal with it - The Tories outstrip any accusations of Antisemitism by miles yet they have refused even to examine it When Labour was, it immediately held an encquiry Why was this The Tories have a long history and a current reputation fro racism yet they refuse even to consider it The State of Conservative racism today TORY RACISM TORY RACISM AGAIN ULTIMATE TORY RACISM HOW THE PARTIES DEAL WITH IT Everyone on this thread does care. You, as a serial racist should know Keith Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: The UK Labour Party and Antisemitism. From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 07 Sep 18 - 11:16 AM Many people may not care that a major party, who could well form the next government, have a serious problem with anti-Semitism in its ranks. Everyone on this thread does care. Also the Jewish community care deeply, many seeing it as an existential threat to them. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The UK Labour Party and Antisemitism. From: Jim Carroll Date: 07 Sep 18 - 10:57 AM "Just add a little more sugar, and sink labour into oblivion." 'bout time we got to what this whole business really about - and who the real anti semites are What a pity for the the# real Jew haters that Labour hasn't had as high a membership in nearly half a century Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: The UK Labour Party and Antisemitism. From: Backwoodsman Date: 07 Sep 18 - 10:47 AM 'Fast'? VAST! |
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Subject: RE: BS: The UK Labour Party and Antisemitism. From: Backwoodsman Date: 07 Sep 18 - 10:46 AM Other than the MSM, nobody outside the Westminster bubble, and a few dipshits on here, has the slightest interest in 'antisemitism' - real or fake news - because it doesn't affect their daily lives one jot. And if a few Jews have hurt feelings, it's immaterial to the thousands of people working their butts off to keep their heads above water, pay the bills, feed their kids etc. Those people are suffering far worse problems than 'hurt feelings'. To the fast majority of people, it's a complete non-issue. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The UK Labour Party and Antisemitism. From: Iains Date: 07 Sep 18 - 10:35 AM "This row is purely a confection" Just add a little more sugar, and sink labour into oblivion. Bring it on I say. Can we have a party after? |
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Subject: RE: BS: The UK Labour Party and Antisemitism. From: Steve Shaw Date: 07 Sep 18 - 10:30 AM Good poster, John. More revelation of hypocrisy. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The UK Labour Party and Antisemitism. From: Steve Shaw Date: 07 Sep 18 - 10:28 AM I think you're right there, John. If anything sinks Labour it will far more likely be their paralysis over Brexit. "Very interesting, Steve, but..." my arse. It's pivotal, and the fact that you persistently sidestep it shows what a hypocrite you are. There is far more racism/antisemitism on the right in this country, and Corbyn, from the left, has been fighting it all his life. So have Livingstone, Wadsworth and Walker. This row is purely a confection intended (a) to unseat Corbyn, (b) to ensure that there won't be a pro-Palestinian western leader anywhere who might just invade Bibi's comfort zone. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The UK Labour Party and Antisemitism. From: Backwoodsman Date: 07 Sep 18 - 10:21 AM Isn't it odd..... |
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Subject: RE: BS: The UK Labour Party and Antisemitism. From: Iains Date: 07 Sep 18 - 10:19 AM "I suspect that the majority of the electorate really don't give a flying fuck about this nonsense," After the next election we shall have the proof. I wont be putting a bet on a swing to labour. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The UK Labour Party and Antisemitism. From: Backwoodsman Date: 07 Sep 18 - 10:09 AM I suspect that the majority of the electorate really don't give a flying fuck about this nonsense, and see it for precisely what it is - a dirty tricks campaign by a Tory party with a looming Brexit disaster, no policies, and nothing left in the tank. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The UK Labour Party and Antisemitism. From: Iains Date: 07 Sep 18 - 10:07 AM Well said Keith! But the upside is that all the time the controversy hogs the headlines it takes Labour even further away from power! Every cloud has a silver lining! Meanwhile, it is delightful to watch the usual suspects squirming while denying the obvious. It shows them for what they are. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The UK Labour Party and Antisemitism. From: Backwoodsman Date: 07 Sep 18 - 10:06 AM No other party, or party leader, has been targeted by the Tory-supporting MSM, aided and abetted by rogue elements amongst its own members, and driven by the Israel regime, the way Labour and JC have. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The UK Labour Party and Antisemitism. From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 07 Sep 18 - 09:55 AM Very interesting Steve, but I was talking about the problem of anti-Semitism in the Labour Party which you have wrongly been denying the existence of for years. No other party has been shown to have anything approaching it. No other party has been torn apart arguing about it. No other party leader has had to apologise to the many Jewish people hurt by it. Just Labour. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The UK Labour Party and Antisemitism. From: Steve Shaw Date: 07 Sep 18 - 09:50 AM To support Dave's posts and to laugh in the face of Keith's, for a second time in this thread a chunk from a piece I quoted the other day: "YouGov polls done in 2015 and again in 2017 found that Tory voters are more likely to hold negative views about Jews than Labour voters. For example, in 2015, 31% Conservatives thought Jews chase money more than other Britons. In 2017, the figure went down to 22%. For Labour the figures were 22% and 14%. A 2017 study looking at British attitudes towards Jews by the Institute for Jewish Policy Research found that 30% of the general population hold at least one ‘anti-Semitic attitude’. Figures on the left are similar to or below the population mean, while those on the right are significantly more likely to hold at least one anti-Semitic attitude. Such facts do not stop the oft repeated accusations against the left." ('Twas your friend Yasmin Alibhai-Brown, Keith) |
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Subject: RE: BS: The UK Labour Party and Antisemitism. From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 07 Sep 18 - 09:42 AM Dave, So, still no examples of anyone denying that there is antisemitism in the Labour party then. No. Of course not! Why would anyone argue that Labour has a lower level of anti-Semitism than would be expected, infinitely lower for a zero count, when this whole 3 year debate has been about whether it has a much higher count than should be expected? We now have Corbyn himself confirming that it does have a much higher count. Dangerously high, such that "hurt that has been caused to many Jewish people." |
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Subject: RE: BS: The UK Labour Party and Antisemitism. From: Jim Carroll Date: 07 Sep 18 - 09:42 AM In my opinion the British People, while holding and sometimes expressing racist and sectarian views, seldo#m act on them The hate crimes that are taking place at present seem to be by organised groups who have taken heart from Brexit and Trump We have the Tommy Robinsons, Trump has the Klan and the Southern fundamentalists The great danger lies in the Farages of this world who use basic xenophobia as a career opportunity Jim |
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Subject: RE: BS: The UK Labour Party and Antisemitism. From: Dave the Gnome Date: 07 Sep 18 - 09:34 AM Funnily enough, Jim, the survey I just referred to opens with the following lines This research is both harrowing and uplifting. Whilst for the past three years antisemitic crime has broken records every year, and antisemitism scandals have repeatedly rocked our politics, British society has mounted an astounding insurgency against antisemitism. Even as anti-Jewish racism made the headlines, British people appear to have taken the opportunity to shun the ancient anti-Jewish prejudices that some had acquired. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The UK Labour Party and Antisemitism. From: Jim Carroll Date: 07 Sep 18 - 09:24 AM These people are refusing to respond that there has been a sharp rise in antisemitism in Britain All they are interesdtd is in using the British Jewish people as a club to beat their least favourite political figure We have a new kid on the block - Nationalist British right-wing antisemitism deniers If Holocaust denial is antisemitism this has to be To use Jews as political pawns is as low as it gets Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: The UK Labour Party and Antisemitism. From: Dave the Gnome Date: 07 Sep 18 - 09:15 AM So, still no examples of anyone denying that there is antisemitism in the Labour party then. But we do have positive confirmation that older men on the right wing of politics, that support leaving the EU, are more likely to be antisemitic than others. Does that description ring any bells with anyone? |
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Subject: RE: BS: The UK Labour Party and Antisemitism. From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 07 Sep 18 - 08:59 AM Dave, No examples of anyone denying that there is antisemitism in the Labour party then? Lots of examples of you all denying Labour has a particular and serious problem over and above anything you might expect from such an organisation. But Corbyn himself acknowledges that it does. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The UK Labour Party and Antisemitism. From: Jim Carroll Date: 07 Sep 18 - 08:06 AM War criminal Tony Blair has just declared that "the Labour Party is finished" Jeremy Corbyn responded by pointing out that Labour Part membership is higher than it has ever been in his lifetime Oh - who is an innocent girl to believe in such a situation!!! Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: The UK Labour Party and Antisemitism. From: Dave the Gnome Date: 07 Sep 18 - 08:02 AM Interesting analysis from the campaign against antisemitism. Analysis of the data shows patterns that remain consistent each year, pointing to specific areas of concern. This provides a valuable resource to Campaign Against Antisemitism and other organisations combating antisemitism which wish to target their outreach work effectively. For example, men are much more likely to be antisemitic than women, older people are much more likely to be antisemitic than younger people, and people of lower social grades are more likely to be antisemitic than people of higher social grades. Our data also revealed patterns in antisemitism across political divides, with supporters of left-wing political parties and supporters of the ‘remain’ camp in the EU referendum all less likely to be antisemitic than those on the right or supporters of the ‘leave’ camp. However, the data does not support suggestions that the EU referendum has unleashed an increase in antisemitism. Look up 'antisemitism barometer' and download the latest report to see more. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The UK Labour Party and Antisemitism. From: Big Al Whittle Date: 07 Sep 18 - 07:59 AM Well we can't answer for everybody. But we should be free of anti semitism ourselves. And we should have (as Jim says) humanitarian concern for oppressed people. The problem I suppose is with how some people see the state of Israel. I don't think the Israelis or the Palestinians will give a tinkers turd about what their detractors or supporters are saying in an English opposition party. However the opinionated tripe that some people are coming up with may very well keep us in opposition |
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Subject: RE: BS: The UK Labour Party and Antisemitism. From: Jim Carroll Date: 07 Sep 18 - 06:51 AM It is to the shame of these peoiple that they have a#tageted the Labour party and totally ignored what is happening elsewhere In a Britain that has been found to have between a third and a half of the population confessing to hold racist views, there is now 100 incidents of antisemitism per month being reported to the police - not worthy of comment unless they can be linked to the Labour party God only knows how many go unreported Now that's what I call antisemitism This is political opportunism gone mad Jimnm Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: The UK Labour Party and Antisemitism. From: Dave the Gnome Date: 07 Sep 18 - 06:44 AM No examples of anyone denying that there is antisemitism in the Labour party then? |
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Subject: RE: BS: The UK Labour Party and Antisemitism. From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 07 Sep 18 - 06:34 AM Dave, Who has denied that there is a problem with antisemitism in the Labour party? All your gang have denied it has a problem above that of other parties and organisations. Yes anti-Semitism is everywhere and Labour was no worse than others, but Corbyn says it is now a "real problem" that "has surfaced within our Party" and "hurt that has been caused to many Jewish people." That is what I have been telling you for years, and much vile abuse I got for it. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The UK Labour Party and Antisemitism. From: KarenH Date: 07 Sep 18 - 06:33 AM Well said Dave the Gnome. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The UK Labour Party and Antisemitism. From: Steve Shaw Date: 07 Sep 18 - 06:23 AM Well, robomatic, he did not attend that ceremony. That ceremony was taking place close to where he was attending something different. Don't believe everything you read, especially when it comes from the pen of an inveterate Corbyn-basher with ulterior motives. I looked at that mural with the bankers before any of this controversy arose, and I got the message, but I didn't think "Jew." My mindset does not accommodate and never has accommodated the concepts of Jews having hooked noses or the concept of Jewish bankers ruling the world or treading all over the working classes. So when I saw the mural I didn't think "Jew." I don't walk round Prestwich and Salford, with their thousands of Jews, and look at people in the street and think "Jew." I think there's something wrong with people who do that. The artist who made that mural had no antisemitic intent. I think if you look at that and see things that it isn't intended to convey then you are simply looking for trouble. In fact, it makes you a damn sight more antisemitic than the person you're accusing. It's you who's walking around with those stereotypes embedded in your brain and you'd better ask yourself why you're harbouring them. Not you personally. It's a bit stiff sometimes to keep typing "one" instead of "you." As for Corbyn's remarks about Hamas, he has long since expressed, very publicly, his regret for using the words he used. You either accept that or you don't. If you don't, I can't help you. One thing's for sure. Hamas and Hezbollah exist only because of the plight of the Palestinians. There are rotten people in the ranks of both, they frequently carry out wrong-headed actions but there's hardly anyone else speaking up for the Palestinians. That could be our fault for permitting Israel to carry out atrocities with impunity far worse than anything Hamas does, refusing to engage with those speaking up for the Palestinians. The "terrorists" in the IRA of The Troubles are now in government. We had to sit down with them in the end and so a lot of lip-biting. Bit of a learning curve, is history. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The UK Labour Party and Antisemitism. From: Jim Carroll Date: 07 Sep 18 - 06:18 AM "One could legitimately ask why you bother buying it if you detest it so much?" Codeword - but it is handy to keep an eye on the vomit-worthy side of Bris#tish politics and some of the journalists are pretty readable "The deniers come up with all sorts of distraction techniques" Vad you still refuse to descrinbe the antisemitism Labour has a major problem with - as you say "Wriggle, wriggle, wriggle!" You have no case unless you specify your accusations - even most morons know that "Who has denied that there is a problem with antisemitism in the Labour party? " Half a dozen anti-semites would be a major problem for a party based o anti-discrimination - there are probably more than that I wonder how many racist foreign secretaries it takes to be a problem ! \Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: The UK Labour Party and Antisemitism. From: Dave the Gnome Date: 07 Sep 18 - 06:09 AM Who has denied that there is a problem with antisemitism in the Labour party? The only people I can see denying anything are those who will not accept that antisemitism is a problem everywhere. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The UK Labour Party and Antisemitism. From: Iains Date: 07 Sep 18 - 06:08 AM "As a Times reader I am treated to a bdaly barrage of hate filled shite from a once great newspaper that has now become Murdoch's bumwipe" One could legitimately ask why you bother buying it if you detest it so much? Do you delight in masochism and perhaps a little flagellation on Sundays? |
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Subject: RE: BS: The UK Labour Party and Antisemitism. From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 07 Sep 18 - 05:49 AM I'll wat to see what Corbyn actually says rather than rely on the words of a ultra right-wing fanatic if it's all the same To you He says, "I acknowledge there is a real problem of anti-Semitism that Labour is working to overcome." And, "I'm sorry for the hurt that has been caused to many Jewish people." And, "Anyone who denies that this has surfaced within our Party is clearly actually wrong and contributing to the problem." So you and your gang have been proved to have been wrong all this time, and I was right all along. BTW, who is this "ultra right-wing fanatic?" I am an ex-Labour voter who hopes to be one again. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The UK Labour Party and Antisemitism. From: Iains Date: 07 Sep 18 - 05:36 AM The deniers come up with all sorts of distraction techniques. Only problem is they do not work. Wriggle, wriggle, wriggle! |
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Subject: RE: BS: The UK Labour Party and Antisemitism. From: Jim Carroll Date: 07 Sep 18 - 05:31 AM "Corbyn says it is about attacks on the Jewish people," Keith - the Israelis have been attacking the Jewish people from day one by claiming that their own terrorist behaviour is "Jewish" I'll wat to see what Corbyn actually says rather than rely on the words of a ultra right-wing fanatic if it's all the same To you Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: The UK Labour Party and Antisemitism. From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 07 Sep 18 - 04:50 AM Jim, this has always been about expunging socialism from the agenda of a Socialist Party , rather than attcks on the Jewish people Corbyn says it is about attacks on the Jewish people, proving you wrong! |
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Subject: RE: BS: The UK Labour Party and Antisemitism. From: Jim Carroll Date: 07 Sep 18 - 04:34 AM "Telling it like it is!" Beats ansering questions I suppose As a Times reader I am treated to a bdaly barrage of hate filled shite from a once great newspaper that has now become Murdoch's bumwipe But it is nice to receive further confirmation that this has always been about expunging socialism from the agenda of a Socialist Party , rather than attcks on the Jewish people If you'd only said this in the first place you wouldn't have wasted so much time stumbling into blind alley Did I thank you for the Ruth Smeeth link - I'm sure I must have!!! Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: The UK Labour Party and Antisemitism. From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 07 Sep 18 - 04:33 AM Jim, you are still denying Labour anti-Semitism, but Corbyn himself admits it! "I acknowledge there is a real problem of anti-Semitism that Labour is working to overcome." He has destroyed your case and shown that I was right all along. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The UK Labour Party and Antisemitism. From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 07 Sep 18 - 04:28 AM Is that the same Labour party and leadership that only last year wiped out the Tory majority? ….but still lost, yes. How are they doing in the polls now? |
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Subject: RE: BS: The UK Labour Party and Antisemitism. From: Jim Carroll Date: 07 Sep 18 - 04:27 AM "The issues regarding Mr. Corbyn so far as I've seen involve direct actions and recordings and meetings taken with the said Mr. Corbyn. Picking out a single person and dumping on them seems to be an act of . . . scapegoating." You appear to be fishing in a dark pool - To prove that you have to come up with far mor examples that there are ar#t present There is not one single example of a senior politician attacking The Jerwish People - not one- all the attacks have been against Zionism Since when has it been anti semitic or racist to attack a political party or ideal I have no time for Hamas - or any religion based organisation, but lets face it, the Hamas is the force that is preventing the total eviction or wiping out of the Palestinian People The Worl d is standing by doing nothing while many thousands are being evicted from their homes - go look at a then and now Israel map to see the Palestinian territory has shrunk People refer to the rocket attacks - go compare the dead on both sides right to the beginning of the conflict - go count the civilian losses and see how Israel and Palestinian figures compare In the recent border protests the largely unreported casualty figures are 168 dead and up to 17,259 injured - - not one of those was Israeli Israel has embarked on a process of ethinic cleansing and between a third and a half of the Israeli population have been found to support that process How the **** do you expect them to react - lie down in front of the tanks? Hanas stands between the Palestinian state and total annihilation The State of Israel was won and established on acts of terrorism - the terrorists became national leaders and heroes - Israel still celebrates the bombing of The King David Hotel - an act of terror Terrorism was major part of the establishing of The State of Israel - that's what happens when a weak, ineffectual pgroup takes on a larger more powerful oppressor Corbyn's role has been exaggerated and deliberately distorted - his actions have been public knowledge for years and have only become 'support fr terrorism' in the last eighteen months Corby in sopporting action against the terrorist state of Israel, and for that, he has my full support - I only wish he'd say what he has to say much louder Ist#raels State terrorist behaviour has been appeased by the press and by politicians for decades Mass murder, mass land seizures, the use of heavy artillery on civilians, destruction of homes, school, hospitals- mostly briefly reported and then either forgotten or protected by American U.N. vetoes. If it hadn't been for the U.S., Israel would have faced prosecution in the International Criminal Court. ISRAEL'S TERRORISM WRIT LARGE " Don't make me re-think my spittle comments! " You seem to be a fair way up your own jaxi to belive I give two monkeys what you think (or haven't thought about) - I respond to you only out of politeness - You haven't actually offered anything that hasn't been said and shot down long ago Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: The UK Labour Party and Antisemitism. From: Iains Date: 07 Sep 18 - 04:06 AM The Times today: "The auditions are about to start for the man or woman who can save the Labour Party. The saviour sought will need an appeal that extends beyond the narrow tribe gathered at the conference. He or she will have to identify and embody a new start, to allow the party to leave its current travails behind. The aching for direction, not offered by the stuttering incumbent, is palpable; senior people in the Labour Party long for leadership in private." Telling it like it is! |
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Subject: RE: BS: The UK Labour Party and Antisemitism. From: Backwoodsman Date: 07 Sep 18 - 03:55 AM Dave! |
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Subject: RE: BS: The UK Labour Party and Antisemitism. From: Dave the Gnome Date: 07 Sep 18 - 03:54 AM Is that the same Labour party and leadership that only last year wiped out the Tory majority? |
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Subject: RE: BS: The UK Labour Party and Antisemitism. From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 07 Sep 18 - 03:52 AM Steve, . It's more about a determined effort to unseat Corbyn. The Blairites want their party back and they'll stop at nothing to get it, Your ludicrous claim that it is just Corbyn's enemies fabricating all this is risible. Corbyn himself is admits it! "I acknowledge there is a real problem of anti-Semitism that Labour is working to overcome." "I'm sorry for the hurt that has been caused to many Jewish people." "Anyone who denies that this has surfaced within our Party is clearly actually wrong and contributing to the problem." That last quote applies to all of your group. His words prove that over the years we have discussed this, you were wrong and I was right all along. Stop the denial and pretence. You have no case. Corbyn has smashed it. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The UK Labour Party and Antisemitism. From: Iains Date: 07 Sep 18 - 03:44 AM And there are some here still in denial. Never mind, instead of accepting the charges, resolving the situation and moving on, there are a minority (well represented on this forum) who refuse to let the matter die down and refuse to acknowledge the charges. I must congratulate you for your valiant efforts that ensure the Labour party under Corbyn will never take power. Corbyn and co, the dream team of catastrophe! Luvvin it! You have allowed this festering soret to totally overshadow and obliterate any concerted action on Brexit. Those denying labour's problems here are many of those same people refusing to accept the referendum results on Brexit, yet show a total inability to see how one impacts the other. I find it hilarious. Pray continue the good work! |
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Subject: RE: BS: The UK Labour Party and Antisemitism. From: Big Al Whittle Date: 07 Sep 18 - 03:31 AM which i think is unlikely. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The UK Labour Party and Antisemitism. From: Big Al Whittle Date: 07 Sep 18 - 03:29 AM well theres the implication that they are part of a tory plot. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The UK Labour Party and Antisemitism. From: David Carter (UK) Date: 07 Sep 18 - 02:32 AM As soon as that article says "constitutionally genocidal", the author has lost it. The Hamas charter does not call for genocide. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The UK Labour Party and Antisemitism. From: robomatic Date: 06 Sep 18 - 09:34 PM Jim Carroll: The issues regarding Mr. Corbyn so far as I've seen involve direct actions and recordings and meetings taken with the said Mr. Corbyn. Picking out a single person and dumping on them seems to be an act of . . . scapegoating. And Diversion. Standard tactics for someone with an ethnic axe to grind. Consider the article to which I linked early on in this thread: "Mr. Corbyn has described the constitutionally genocidal Hamas as his “friends.” He’s appeared on stage with inveterate anti-Semites. He’s defended a mural that depicted hooknosed bankers running the world. He’s attended a wreath-laying ceremony that celebrated the perpetrators of the Munich Olympics massacre. All of this was variously offensive, tone-deaf, ignorant or, at times, insidious. But none of these scandals quite clinched it for me. The associations were often tangential. And, I reasoned, there was the possibility of confusion: Mr. Corbyn is not exactly known for his sharp wits. Then, last Thursday, The Daily Mail released a video of Mr. Corbyn speaking at a 2013 conference in London about Britain’s legacy in Palestine. The conference was promoted by the Qassam Brigades, the military wing of Hamas. Other speakers included Stephen Sizer, who has appeared alongside Holocaust deniers at a conference in Iran. So far, so familiar." It has more to say from there, from the author's point of view And then you go and make personal observations of those who disagree with you. Don't make me re-think my spittle comments! Keep your screen clear and attempt to do the same with your mind. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The UK Labour Party and Antisemitism. From: Steve Shaw Date: 06 Sep 18 - 08:13 PM What distrust? |
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Subject: RE: BS: The UK Labour Party and Antisemitism. From: Big Al Whittle Date: 06 Sep 18 - 08:05 PM I'm going along with some Jewish friends, lifelong Labour supporters and socialists, fellow musicians as it happens. They deserve better than your distrust. Like I say I don't understand what the fuck is going on. But I do know the situation in Palestine is not a good enough reason to alienate sections of our supporters |
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Subject: RE: BS: The UK Labour Party and Antisemitism. From: Jim Carroll Date: 06 Sep 18 - 08:04 PM Just to clarify I and I doubt anybody here, have no argument whatever with the probability that there are Jew Haters in the Labour Party, and among the Tories and Lib Dems... Anti semitism is the oldest and most persistent form of cultural hatred on this Planet Labour, a party with a history of anti racism and anti prejudice, created largely by refugee Jews, is less likely tto have a problem than any other Party The Tory Party brushes such problems under the carpet - several years ago it was accused of having an Islamophobic probem In contrast to Corbyn, who acted immediately, the Tories have done NOTHING The Accusers here - Keith - a Tory who says he will only vote Labour again if the supporters of Criminal Tony Blair take charge Iains - an extremist right winger who posted his support for extremist Islamophobe Rommy Robinson and gloatingly drew attention to the petition insisting that Robinson not be jailed for Islamophobic hate-campaigning Bobad - a declare hater of all things Muslims who onece filled this forum with hate postings from some of the most extreme racist and Islamophobic hate sites on the web, attempting to prove that the Muslim people have been a hate-filled religion since Biblical Times Now - were I a self-respecting Jew, would I want any of these people to speak on my behalf (rhetorical question, of course) The fact that none of these people are not prepared to acknowledge that there is a world-wide problem of antisemitism and insist that it only exists within the Labour Party in the form of "insulting and intimidation" in a clear indication (to me at least) exactly where the welfare of the Jewish people stand in their particular books Crying 'wolf' over a non proven and probably non-existent "Antisemitism Problem" is only going to help the rise of antisemitism - immaterial anyway - their aim is to support the bringing down of the Labour Party - The Jewish People are just collateral damage as far as they are concerned Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: The UK Labour Party and Antisemitism. From: Jim Carroll Date: 06 Sep 18 - 07:30 PM "They are charges of intimidation and abuse, and of racist comments," What are they Keith You say "racist" but your friend Bobad stridently denies that the Jews are a race Insi#ults aren't antisemitic unless they are specified as being so - can you tell us what these antisemitic insults are What is the intimidation - are Labour Party members threateni#ning #to hang all the Jews in Parliament ? Same with abuse - do you have any examples of Antisemitic abuse ? Iaains link showed antipathy towards the Zionists who, it has been shown, are interfering in British politics - Iain's linking an employee of the Israeli Government provided proof, as if any were needed, that there is a direct link between these accusations of antisemitism and the Israeli multi-million anti-BDS campaign (for which am very grateful - thank you Iains) So what do we have - the Israe;li government attempting to smear a Labour Party Leader and an ongoing battle bring waged within the Labour Party to rid itself of a principled Socialist leader Do you not think that's understandable grounds for abuse As for intimidation - have you ever seen Parliamentary Whips dragging reluctant MPs through the Lobby to vote on unpopular issue? Thry this for size, blue eyes! THE KILLING FIELDS of WESTMINSTER I'm afraid you are going to have to do better than a few vague accusations Keith Are you really going along with this Tory shit Al - shame on you Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: The UK Labour Party and Antisemitism. From: Steve Shaw Date: 06 Sep 18 - 05:52 PM If you honestly think that that's an answer and not just Keith doing his routine repetitive formulaic burbling, then you are easily satisfied. The question is simply not addressed. Down the years in these threads, every single specific accusation of supposed antisemitic remarks within Labour has been addressed in detail and soundly refuted. Perhaps you haven't had the energy to follow the threads. I wouldn't blame you. Yes it's very energy-sapping. But, as far as the electorate is concerned, this issue is a fart in the wind compared to Labour's paralysis over brexit. That's where we are severely letting the Tories off the hook. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The UK Labour Party and Antisemitism. From: Big Al Whittle Date: 06 Sep 18 - 05:27 PM why doesn't it answer Jim's question? If its going on - it needs to stop. I don't know a lot of jews, but those I do know seem to think theres some substance to the complaints. You just don't like the answer. You're right Jim. I haven't been to Israel, or Palestine. I don't know what's going on. But I do know that for many years, there has not been this contentious anti Israel stuff arriving in my mail box. The number of people who questioned Israel's motives and actions - you could count on one hand......er Vanessa Redgrave, David Mellor....and... And now suddenly its the cassus belli in the Labour Party. Its the reason we're throwing away the next election. And I say to you, the situation in the middle east is ongoing and its not a good enough to hand the country to the tories. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The UK Labour Party and Antisemitism. From: Steve Shaw Date: 06 Sep 18 - 03:00 PM Which in no way answers Jim's question. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The UK Labour Party and Antisemitism. From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 06 Sep 18 - 02:56 PM This leaves the crucial question still unanswered - WHAT IS THIS ANTISEMITISM LABOUR IS BEING ACCUSED OF? They are charges of intimidation and abuse, and of racist comments, and they come from Jews and some non-Jews within the party, mostly MPs. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The UK Labour Party and Antisemitism. From: Jim Carroll Date: 06 Sep 18 - 02:44 PM RUTH SMEETH'S EMPLOYER Once again an accusation of antisemitism is linked directly back to Israel - this time via a paid employee Incidentally, despite the fact that the language reported by Smeeth in Hansard was both ill-mannered and unacceptable (if her description s true) it attacks her as a supporter of "Zionism" not for being a Jew, therefore it doesn't fit any definition of Antisemitism I am aware of Zionism is a political movement - not a religion, not a culture, not a race - a political movement This leaves the crucial question still unanswered - WHAT IS THIS ANTISEMITISM LABOUR IS BEING ACCUSED OF? Al If you really do reduce what his happening in The Middle East to "the Jews and the Arabs will be merrily kicking each other up the arse " I seriously suggest you take a look at what is happening there Might I suggest something neutral like Amnesty International ot Human Rights Watch or The United Nations or ot Medicines Sans Frontires reports YOUR STARTER FOR TEN Jim |
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Subject: RE: BS: The UK Labour Party and Antisemitism. From: Big Al Whittle Date: 06 Sep 18 - 02:14 PM These people have had frigging years to get worked up about the Palestinians plight. Everyone knows the Jews and the Arabs will be merrily kicking each other up the arse down the road into eternity. To use these unfortunate people as an excuse for not taking the fight to the tories is intellectually dishonest. Anyway, like I say = lets hope I am completely wrong. i've heard it said - Corbyn is cynically courting the Islamic vote, I really don't know what games the politicians are playing. They're all too clever for their own damn good. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The UK Labour Party and Antisemitism. From: Steve Shaw Date: 06 Sep 18 - 01:59 PM There ya go, Iains - a real honest broker. Not. No denial our end. No understanding your end. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The UK Labour Party and Antisemitism. From: Jim Carroll Date: 06 Sep 18 - 01:57 PM MORE Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: The UK Labour Party and Antisemitism. From: Jim Carroll Date: 06 Sep 18 - 01:32 PM RUTH SMEETH RUTH SMEETH 2 RUTH SMEETH 3 Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: The UK Labour Party and Antisemitism. From: Steve Shaw Date: 06 Sep 18 - 01:30 PM Now why would you believe Ruth Smeeth, who put on a deliberate act of amateur dramatics, complete with fake tears, at the launch of the Chakrabarti report in order to discredit Marc Wadsworth, a man who has fought racism and antisemitism all his life, who criticised her collusion with the press but who didn't know she was a Jew? You're it again. All received wisdom, confirmation bias and no actual research. Why don't you look into it? |
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Subject: RE: BS: The UK Labour Party and Antisemitism. From: robomatic Date: 06 Sep 18 - 01:29 PM Damn, Jim Carroll, DTG, Iaians, Steve Shaw, KarenH, you've been goin' all night. I'm still getting around my morning espresso! Love what you've done with the thread, you've gone intense but not too vituperative. In fact, I was the one who went vituperative. Sorry about that JC. JC: I'm actually pretty ignorant of your Labour/ Conservative issues so I've held off saying anything and I think I've said as much. I'm only speaking to comments positions that Corbyn has taken regarding mideast issues. I feel safe with that but as regards National Front and other UK issues I know better than to pretend I've got background which I don't. Wish you felt the same regarding Israel. As for the UK being welcoming of all races and creeds. That is a recent phenomenon. (Recent for the UK means last 200 years. Recent for Americans means after last lunch). Jews enjoyed exile from King John until Oliver Cromwell. Catholics were on again, off again, way way off, slightly on, half on, we'll marry them but they must convert on. Jamaicans were on, then on? (and so on). As for the focus of rising antisemitism, it is not all from the right. I writ elsewhere that AS is a complicated thing. But one simple to understand item is, unfortunately a lot of endemic AS by Muslims, some from the Qu'ran, some from the Hadith (sayings not in the Qu'ran but attributed to the Prophet and those around him), and some that gets blended with anti-Israel sentiments. Now that there are more Muslims penetrating the West, it is showing up everywhere. And not that more Muslims are showing up in American politics, it is showing up there as well. Since Democrats are trying harder than Reps for new voters, it is seaping in America from the left. UK mileage may vary. Fact of life. Better to face up to it now. American Jews are still overwhelmingly Democratic and on many fronts are engaging with American Muslims positively. There is actually more to American life than Israel, and most Muslim problems are from other Muslims. Oh, one more time. . . trope! |
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Subject: RE: BS: The UK Labour Party and Antisemitism. From: Iains Date: 06 Sep 18 - 01:07 PM https://hansard.parliament.uk/Commons/2018-04-17/debates/9D70B2B4-39D7-4241-ACF8-13F7DFD8AEB2/Anti-Semitism#contribution-0838975 Ruth Smeeth a speech about antisemitism in the Labour party in the House of Commons. The opening sentence: Over the past two years, however, I have experienced something genuinely painful: attacks on my identity from within my own Labour family. I have been the target of a campaign of abuse, attempted bullying and intimidation from people who would dare to tell me that people like me have no place in the party of which I have been a member for over 20 years, and which I am proud to represent on these Benches. Yet there are still contributors from the left here in denial. I recommend the speech is read in full, including the vile comments received by her. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The UK Labour Party and Antisemitism. From: Jim Carroll Date: 06 Sep 18 - 12:54 PM Should read 'Labour Friends of Israel' - of course Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: The UK Labour Party and Antisemitism. From: Jim Carroll Date: 06 Sep 18 - 12:45 PM "which side were you on in the other era's" I'm a humanitarian socialist Al - I don't have "sides" As far as I am concerned everybody has an equal right to a voice - the emphasis being "equal" If you don't believe it has been instigated by Israel - explain the timeline You tell me why Labour never has#d a pr#oblem with antisemitism until nearly exactly one month after a meeting between a group of Friends of Labour 'Friends of Israel' and members of Netanyahu's cabinet to discuss Corbyn's declared support for the Palestinian people ? Jim |
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Subject: RE: BS: The UK Labour Party and Antisemitism. From: Steve Shaw Date: 06 Sep 18 - 12:25 PM I agree that Labour is twatting about and not putting the heat on the Tories. The Palestinians hardly get a mention. It's more about a determined effort to unseat Corbyn. The Blairites want their party back and they'll stop at nothing to get it, even if it means putting the Tories in. The Friends of Israel, the Board of Deputies and the Israeli regime want to keep it all nice and cosy with complicit Western leaders who'll raise nobbut a token whimper at Gaza sieges, mass slaughters, racial discrimination and wholesale land theft. They don't want a dissident voice in the ranks speaking up for Palestinians. But at home it's all about just getting Jezza out. If he flew over to Israel with a bunch of flowers tomorrow to lick Bibi's boots they'd still all find something. I think I'm getting a proxy persecution complex. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The UK Labour Party and Antisemitism. From: Big Al Whittle Date: 06 Sep 18 - 11:55 AM Well if its not coming from inside the Labour Party Jim, it would take a bloody clever enemy to think up this bollocks. I think its got all the hallmarks of Labour twatting about instead of getting on with the job - something we've seen subtle variations of since the Gaitskell years. I mean there's very little you can say to dissidents. They always have a valid point. And its always more important than party unity. In Gaitskell's time it was the bomb. In Kinnock's time, it was the issue of union power. And now its the cause of the Palestinians. There's always something that is more important than taking the power off the tories. Out of interest, Jim.....which side were you on in the other era's. Are you always on the side of the dissidents? |
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Subject: RE: BS: The UK Labour Party and Antisemitism. From: Steve Shaw Date: 06 Sep 18 - 11:54 AM "The usual suspects have run out of counter arguments again and resorting to insults" Then, just a little while later, "Tell me! Do you also believe the sun sets in the morming and rises at night? or perhaps you are flat earthers. Obviously logic is missing in your makeup..." You don't do irony, do you? And I see you're at it with your "whole world" nonsense again, and that follows on from your utterly pointless and meaningless news-litany post. You're having a bad day. Keep your head down unless you have something of substance to say is my advice. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The UK Labour Party and Antisemitism. From: Iains Date: 06 Sep 18 - 11:43 AM Is it not strange that worldwide there is recognition that labour under corbyn has a problem with antisemitism and a few diehards on a very obscure website insist on denying it? You may manage to convince yourselves with your delusion but rest assured the rest of us have absolute belief in the veracity of the accusation. When even Corbyn accepts there is a problem then for you to deny it is a total aberration. Tell me! Do you also believe the sun sets in the morming and rises at night? or perhaps you are flat earthers. Obviously logic is missing in your makeup. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The UK Labour Party and Antisemitism. From: Jim Carroll Date: 06 Sep 18 - 11:43 AM "Hope this helps." Depends on who you want to help Steve - certainly not those who wish to paint Labour as a viper's nest of Jew Haters Jim |
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Subject: RE: BS: The UK Labour Party and Antisemitism. From: Steve Shaw Date: 06 Sep 18 - 11:41 AM "It is Labour Party members themselves who are making the accusations as you well know..........but do keep on denying." There are over 600,000 Labour Party members. The vast majority, if not nearly all, of the accusations from within the party are coming from a group of disaffected ex-Blairite/Brownite MPs who dearly want to see Corbyn gone. Nobody is denying but one or two of us are trying to ensure that loose statements don't degrade the argument. By the way, accusations are also coming from the Board Of Deputies (not Labour Party members last time I checked), elements of the Jewish press in both Israel and the UK as well as from a goodly smattering of our mainstream papers and, not least, the Israeli regime itself, also last time I checked, not members of the British Labour Party. Hope this helps. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The UK Labour Party and Antisemitism. From: Jim Carroll Date: 06 Sep 18 - 11:14 AM You have my argument as to why there is a worldwide rise in antisemitism in which the Labour party doesn't register on the Richter scale of antisemitism The fact that you refuse to respond is proof posetive that you with to continue to use the Jewish People as a political bludeon Isn't that a bit antisemitic? Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: The UK Labour Party and Antisemitism. From: Jim Carroll Date: 06 Sep 18 - 11:10 AM "It is Labour Party members themselves who are making the accusations as you well know." No - it is supporters of Israel in the Labour Party who are making the accusations The vast majority of Labour Party members either reject them or ignore it This still doesn't get any nearer to understanding what exactly the Labour Party is being accused of - the accusations are meaningless until we do No more to say in Israeli racism I assume? Thought not Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: The UK Labour Party and Antisemitism. From: bobad Date: 06 Sep 18 - 11:07 AM What exactly i this antisemitism you are accusing the Labour party of It is Labour Party members themselves who are making the accusations as you well know..........but do keep on denying. As Corbyn himself has said: “Anyone who denies this has surfaced in our party is clearly wrong and contributing to the problem.” |
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Subject: RE: BS: The UK Labour Party and Antisemitism. From: Jim Carroll Date: 06 Sep 18 - 11:00 AM The usual suspects have run out of counter arguments again and resorting to insults "The usual suspects " - great way accuse someone of insulting What exactly i this antisemitism you are accusing the Labour party of Can you describe it? Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: The UK Labour Party and Antisemitism. From: Iains Date: 06 Sep 18 - 10:50 AM The usual suspects have run out of counter arguments again and resorting to insults Here are a few snippets of news to consider. It never rains but it pours: https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/7191471/jeremy-corbyns-anti-semitism-crisis-deepens-as-parliamentary-sleaze-chiefs-launch-investig NEWS Jeremy Corbyn, Labour and the IHRA definition of antisemitism The Guardian The Labour party's adoption of the full IHRA definition of antisemitism (Report, 5 September) should not be the end but the start of renewed efforts to ... Labour votes for full antisemitism terms in standing orders - The Guardian The Guardian view on Jeremy Corbyn's Labour: it must be an anti-racist party - The Guardian Anti-Semitism in Britain has DOUBLED following Labour racism scandal – and 40% of Jews say ... - The Sun Full Coverage Corbyn's Labour, British Jews and anti-Semitism: Will Peace Now Break Out? Haaretz Jeremy Corbyn, UK Labour leader, arrives at a meeting of his party's National Executive Committee to discuss its definition of anti-Semitism. London ... Jeremy Corbyn tried to permit calling Israel inherently racist - The Jerusalem Post Chakrabarti denies anti-Semitism code 'sullied' by extra statement - BBC News Labour anti-Semitism row: Israel criticism defended - BBC News Full Coverage 'Israel Is a Racist Endeavour': Signs Appear Across London After Labour Accepts Full anti ... Haaretz Corbyn's Labour, British Jews and anti-Semitism: Will Peace Now Break Out? ... The posters appeared a day after the U.K. Labour Party adopted the ... London bus stops vandalized with anti-Israel posters - The Times of Israel Full Coverage Jeremy Corbyn hit with BARRAGE of calls to APOLOGISE from Tory MPs during PMQs Express.co.uk Mrs May later said the Labour leader “should be ashamed of himself”. The Prime Minister said: “He is trying to change his party so that anti-Semites ... Jeremy Corbyn's anti-Semitism crisis deepens as Parliamentary sleaze chiefs launch investigation ... The Sun JEREMY Corbyn's anti-Semitism crisis deepened last night after ... Sources confirmed the Labour leader was "cooperating" with the inquiry - just hours ... Talk to us about anti-Semitism, Labour urges Jews as MPs back definition update ITV News Senior Labour backbencher Dame Margaret Hodge, who clashed with Mr Corbyn over anti-Semitism, said the leader had “sullied” the adoption of the ... Labour MPs back anti-Semitism rules and call for talks - Metro Newspaper UK |
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Subject: RE: BS: The UK Labour Party and Antisemitism. From: Jim Carroll Date: 06 Sep 18 - 10:24 AM APARTHEID ISRAEL - IT'S OFFICIAL !! Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: The UK Labour Party and Antisemitism. From: Jim Carroll Date: 06 Sep 18 - 10:10 AM AND ANOTHER Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: The UK Labour Party and Antisemitism. From: Jim Carroll Date: 06 Sep 18 - 10:08 AM ANOTHER Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: The UK Labour Party and Antisemitism. From: bobad Date: 06 Sep 18 - 09:50 AM Shocking VIDEO reveals just how "racist" Israel is. Viewer discretion advised. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The UK Labour Party and Antisemitism. From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 06 Sep 18 - 09:37 AM And still you refuse to specify your charges of antisemitism, as do your fellow accusers They are not my charges Jim. They are charges of intimidation and abuse, and of racist comments, and they come from Jews and non-Jews within the party, mostly MPs. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The UK Labour Party and Antisemitism. From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 06 Sep 18 - 09:33 AM you said what you said Yes. Not the filthy lies you just claimed about me, liar. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The UK Labour Party and Antisemitism. From: Jim Carroll Date: 06 Sep 18 - 09:29 AM Sorry Keith - your exact words have been posted onto this thread I will not grace your denial with an argument - you said what you said And still you refuse to specify your charges of antisemitism, as do your fellow accusers It seems that a denial of simple justice is also a part of your portfolio Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: The UK Labour Party and Antisemitism. From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 06 Sep 18 - 09:25 AM Liar Jim, Keith is historically an Islamophobe who believes their religion causes them to hav underage sex Filthy lies Jim. I have never, ever even criticised any religion, unlike you. No religion "causes them to hav underage sex" and I would never suggest such a ludicrous thing. Filthy lies Jim |
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Subject: RE: BS: The UK Labour Party and Antisemitism. From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 06 Sep 18 - 09:20 AM Dave, No one, as far as I know, has ever denied that there is antisemitism in the Labour party... Yes, but you go on to say that it can be found in any large organisation, denying that there is a serious and specific problem in the Labour Party that has arisen since Corbyn became leader and the Far Left became dominant. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The UK Labour Party and Antisemitism. From: Jim Carroll Date: 06 Sep 18 - 09:05 AM "there is no such thing as race, unless you're a racist" That is true, but Antisemitism Islamophobia and racism as forms of prejudice are inseparable In my opinion one of the great missed opportunities of history came about because of the bad treatment of the Jews as being 'different' somehow from bad treatment of other cultures, races and religions - and humanity in general. The Holocaust was a perfect example of extreme prejudice, but that hatred extended to Gypsies, Trades Unionists, Communists The defeat of Nazism was a perfect opportunity to outlaw all forms of prejudice We have been debating a definition of Antisemitism and ignoring the fact that it is only a part of hatred and prejudice Why? Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: The UK Labour Party and Antisemitism. From: bobad Date: 06 Sep 18 - 08:00 AM Jewishness as ethnicity, which is to say race Er........no, two different things, and besides, there is no such thing as race, unless you're a racist. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The UK Labour Party and Antisemitism. From: Backwoodsman Date: 06 Sep 18 - 07:34 AM We also need to ignore the spoilers who come here for no other reason than to cause trouble. Remember how the atmosphere improved when those fuckwits absented themselves (or were forcibly restrained?)? Everyone knows who they are, how many times does it need to be said - IGNORE THEM! |
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Subject: RE: BS: The UK Labour Party and Antisemitism. From: Jim Carroll Date: 06 Sep 18 - 07:28 AM "I stand by my belief on Ians' comments on the word 'trope'." I can't disagree with that - I nevr use the word and, as far as I can see, the only people who have used it here are those who I find 'on the other side' of my arguments - Keith inr#troduced it to the discussion and has twice directed 'An#ti semitic trope' at those he disagreed#s with. It is as meaningless a term as 'Antisemitism' is becoming due to its constant misuse. When I was born the Holocaust hadn't even begun - I was alive at the time it took place and when the perpetrators were tried My family dought fascism before and after the war - some of them suffered punishment and imprisonment for doing so. My uncle, a regular soldier and decorated war hero was punished by the army for refusing to go and train fascist troops in Greece during the Greek Civil War. The same regular soldier was stationed in Palestine when the British left Palestine Israel has been a par of my consciousness throughout my sentient life - as an unqualified supporter, and later, as its politics swung further and further towards the right, a qualified one. Now I'm getting on in years, hardly a day passes when I don't think with pride and respect of the part played by members of my family in the fight against racism and sectarianism I have been called an anti-semite by five people on this forum, by Bearded Bruce, Bobad, Keith, Iains and Robomatic - all of the (sometimes extreme) right The Party in which I place a great deal of hope for the future of British Politics, The (socialist inclined) Labour Party has been accused of the same thing I am demanding that such accusations be qualified - If I, Corbyn, Dave, Steve are antisemites, what exactly are we guilty of ? If no reply is forthcoming, these discussions have become no more than soapboxes for right wing politics This disucussions have now become re-runs of kafka's 'The Trial', where the prosecution refuses to tell the accused what he is being accused of. We really need to move away from blogs and opinions and begin to discuss what is actually happening in the world today - the frightening rise in real antisemitism is very much a part of that, but only a part. Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: The UK Labour Party and Antisemitism. From: Steve Shaw Date: 06 Sep 18 - 07:14 AM If there really is an interpreter in the room, perhaps he or she could translate that post of yours for us. As it stands, it doesn't make any sense at all. Ironic, really. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The UK Labour Party and Antisemitism. From: Iains Date: 06 Sep 18 - 06:58 AM If these people refuse to debate rationally as they are, we need to remember who they are we are we are not we will be we won't be Is there an interpreter in the room anywhere? Not for the first time I have no idea what he is on about. It is verging on incoherance! |
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Subject: RE: BS: The UK Labour Party and Antisemitism. From: Steve Shaw Date: 06 Sep 18 - 06:49 AM Interesting piece by Yasmin Alibhai-Brown from April 24 - the whole thing is worth reading (give it a google) but here's a chunk of it that got me musing: Antisemitism on the left, yes — but Tories have their own problems with both Jews and Muslims YouGov polls done in 2015 and again in 2017 found that Tory voters are more likely to hold negative views about Jews than Labour voters. For example, in 2015, 31% Conservatives thought Jews chase money more than other Britons. In 2017, the figure went down to 22%. For Labour the figures were 22% and 14%. A 2017 study looking at British attitudes towards Jews by the Institute for Jewish Policy Research found that 30% of the general population hold at least one ‘anti-Semitic attitude’. Figures on the left are similar to or below the population mean, while those on the right are significantly more likely to hold at least one anti-Semitic attitude. Such facts do not stop the oft repeated accusations against the left. It strikes me that we hear an awful lot from Labour Friends of Israel and the Board of Deputies, etc., but very little from the Tories about "Labour's antisemitism problem." I strongly suspect that the Tories think that they have a sleeping dog that they'd rather not see stirred too much, especially considering the threat of its compounding their total brexit balls-up. Whilst I regard the Skripal thing as off-topic in this thread, there is, to my way of thinking, a tenuous link to the other political shenanigans of the day. Labour is paralysed over brexit, to their huge discredit in my view, and has let this bogus antisemitism issue engulf them instead of coming out and exposing their attackers for the utter frauds that they are. So Labour doesn't look good. And the Tories definitely don't look good. So what do you do when things are bad at home? Well you could always start a war, as Maggie did for example, or, failing that, show your people how rotten Johnny Foreigner is. Now I don't know whether these two blokes painted stuff on that doorknob or not. I've seen the CCTV snapshots and read about their trail from Gatwick to Bow to Salisbury to Bow to Salisbury to Gatwick. Two scruffy blokes strolling around invariably looking relaxed and as uncloak-and-dagger as you could wish for. The assistant commissioner has claimed that he has enough evidence to charge them with conspiracy to murder, etc. Well I don't think he has. I think he has enough evidence, if only he could lay his hands on them, merely to ask them some awkward questions. Instead, we have the spectacle of a belly-up Theresa May expressing unjustifiable certainties (which would preclude a fair trial in any case - that particular bridge is well and truly burned) and even blaming Putin. Thing is, they can't lay their hands on these blokes. That's one certainty, probably the only one. In a way, that puts May in the rather luxurious position of being able to say what the hell she likes about those damn Ruskies, in full knowledge that she can never be brought to account by due process throwing up a whole bunch of really awkward doubts about these two chaps. Good, eh? Incidentally, I obtained a copy of yesterday's Daily Mail (I did NOT pay for it!). While the rest of media were in hysterics over Corbyn's "caveat," the Mail had nothing to say about it at all until page 16. I wonder how many Mail readers ever get that far... Of course, the Mail couldn't NOT report it, as that would have been distinctly odd, but it was well and truly relegated. Then I remembered that this paper once stood up for the man who murdered six million Jews... |
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Subject: RE: BS: The UK Labour Party and Antisemitism. From: KarenH Date: 06 Sep 18 - 06:37 AM Jim I was in no sense suggesting you were wrong about his being a Tommy Robinsons supporter, my confusion arose from the oddness of such a one citing Marxist analyses by a blog that expresses strong dislike of Brexit supporters. But I believe it was because he had not read the blog he put up the link to and so did not realise it where it was coming from. I stand by my belief on Ians' comments on the word 'trope'. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The UK Labour Party and Antisemitism. From: Jim Carroll Date: 06 Sep 18 - 05:58 AM "This doesn't chime with support for the appalling Tommy Robinson. " Iaians is a tommy Robinson supporter He circulaed the petition sppoerting him on this forum several months ago Keith is historically an Islamophobe who believes their religion causes them to hav underage sex He has said so on this forum If these people refuse to debate rationally as they are, we need to remember who they are im Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: The UK Labour Party and Antisemitism. From: KarenH Date: 06 Sep 18 - 05:50 AM Jim I am confused since Ians just referred us to a Deleuzian (ie Marxist) piece on the word 'trope'. This doesn't chime with support for the appalling Tommy Robinson. But maybe he didn't realise it was Marxist, maybe he only read the headline, not the article. And the link doesn't prove that he has found out what 'trope' means or the significance of the etymology of the word. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The UK Labour Party and Antisemitism. From: Jim Carroll Date: 06 Sep 18 - 05:30 AM "ignore" Of course you will Racists using racism as a political opportunity can do nothing else You have refused to even respond to the massive rise in all forms of racism in Britain You have refused to acknowledge that the rise in antisemitism is part of a world-wide phenomenon Now you are refusing to acknowledge your own support for racists What else can you do? You even refuse to identify the type of antisemitism you are accusing the Labour Party of This is the most bizarre stand-off I have ever come across since 'Dog-Day Afternoon' Until both of you you say exactly you are accusing The Labour Party of this will remain the farce you have made it Racism in all its forms especially antisemitism, if a phenomenon of the right - yo are both of the extreme right - Iians is of the Tommy Robinson kind Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: The UK Labour Party and Antisemitism. From: KarenH Date: 06 Sep 18 - 05:30 AM Ians put up a link to a blog. Some more quick googling, eh? But an interesting link. However, I'm not qualified to discuss self-styled Deleuzian analyses like this one. I liked the bit on Ian's site where they have a go at Brexiters, making frequent use of f*** words. "You stupid f****** Bexit f****** c***". Thanks for the link Ians. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The UK Labour Party and Antisemitism. From: Iains Date: 06 Sep 18 - 05:09 AM ignore |
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Subject: RE: BS: The UK Labour Party and Antisemitism. From: Jim Carroll Date: 06 Sep 18 - 04:55 AM And one more the pro Israel lobby ignore the facts - surprise, surprise Not so long agao Iains was advocating for the right of free peec of arch rcist Tommy Robinson and gloatingly publicising his supporters petition I wonder if his latest concern for victims of racism is an indication of a 'Road to Damascus' conversion or double-standards - or maybe just good ol' political oppertunism Likewise Keith whoose concerns over racism has never exactly extended to the Muslim "implanted" people This becomes vomit-making Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: The UK Labour Party and Antisemitism. From: Dave the Gnome Date: 06 Sep 18 - 04:41 AM Are you listening, Robo? Keith? :-) |
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Subject: RE: BS: The UK Labour Party and Antisemitism. From: Iains Date: 06 Sep 18 - 04:38 AM http://www.indelicates.com/trope/ |
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Subject: RE: BS: The UK Labour Party and Antisemitism. From: Dave the Gnome Date: 06 Sep 18 - 04:37 AM Subject: RE: BS: The UK Labour Party and Antisemitism. From: Dave the Gnome - PM Date: 06 Sep 18 - 04:07 AM No one, as far as I know, has ever denied that there is antisemitism in the Labour party... |
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Subject: RE: BS: The UK Labour Party and Antisemitism. From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 06 Sep 18 - 04:31 AM Corbyn, " “Anyone who denies this has surfaced in our party is clearly wrong and contributing to the problem.” |
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Subject: RE: BS: The UK Labour Party and Antisemitism. From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 06 Sep 18 - 04:28 AM The are many Arab States and Islamic States. Are they all racist endeavours? |
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Subject: RE: BS: The UK Labour Party and Antisemitism. From: KarenH Date: 06 Sep 18 - 04:27 AM Letter in yesterday's press, interesting comment "One of the IHRA examples clarifying its definition of antisemitism is this: “Denying the Jewish people their right to self-determination, eg by claiming that the existence of a State of Israel is a racist endeavour.” But the state of Israel’s conception of what it is to be Jewish rests not on the religious belief that is Judaism but on Jewishness as ethnicity, which is to say race. It therefore follows that Israel’s existence as a state is indeed a racist endeavour, since membership and/or “level of membership” of that state rests on so-called race. Labour’s acceptance of the contrary view is a disastrous capitulation to racism." Is this a fair view of the State of Israel? |
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Subject: RE: BS: The UK Labour Party and Antisemitism. From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 06 Sep 18 - 04:27 AM You went on to say that Labour's problem was just the same as any other organisation, denying that it was a significant problem specific to the Labour Left which is what this debate is about. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The UK Labour Party and Antisemitism. From: Dave the Gnome Date: 06 Sep 18 - 04:23 AM Subject: RE: BS: The UK Labour Party and Antisemitism. From: Dave the Gnome - PM Date: 06 Sep 18 - 04:07 AM No one, as far as I know, has ever denied that there is antisemitism in the Labour party... |
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Subject: RE: BS: The UK Labour Party and Antisemitism. From: Dave the Gnome Date: 06 Sep 18 - 04:22 AM The term was used by another first, BTW, but as he is a master of changing the meaning of what he said it is not worth going down that route. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The UK Labour Party and Antisemitism. From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 06 Sep 18 - 04:21 AM The attacks on Corbyn and any of his allies are to try and remove his popular support. It is not working and will, hopefully, continue to backfire as it did in the last election. How can you keep up that pretence and denial? The accusations of anti-Semitism all emerged from within the party. The whole leadership including Corbyn acknowledge that it is real. Corbyn actually stated that people like you who deny it and claim it is fabricated are part of the problem. You have been shown to be wrong in your assessment over and over again, but you keep on repeating it like some mantra! |
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Subject: RE: BS: The UK Labour Party and Antisemitism. From: Jim Carroll Date: 06 Sep 18 - 04:20 AM MORE Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: The UK Labour Party and Antisemitism. From: Dave the Gnome Date: 06 Sep 18 - 04:19 AM Robo, I am sure you will be interested to note that you are now a 'trendy lefty' who nicked the word trope 'out of the gruniard some past sunny day.'! You need to pick your allies more carefully. :-) |
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Subject: RE: BS: The UK Labour Party and Antisemitism. From: Jim Carroll Date: 06 Sep 18 - 04:11 AM "Earlier today (when you could still see your screen through the spittle)you wrote:" Yesterday (before you decided the best method of defence was personal abuse) your defence of Israel was that there were worse (a dubious point point anyway) Can you justify that somewhat schoolyard-level argument I have asked you peopele over and over again what exactly you are accusing the Labour Party of I think the fact than not one of you have had the bottle (or good manners) to reply indicates you have no answer, which is answer enough If you have no accusation, you have no case, which most of us here are aware of anyway "40% of British Jews say they would leave if Corbyn became Prime Minister." And still accusations without substantiation - this gets more and more Kafkaesque by the minute There is little doubt my mind that Antisemitism Some world reports Apr 23, 2017 - In contrast, English-speaking countries saw a rise in antisemitic incidents: The UK saw an increase of 11%, though the rate of violent incidents America Mar 17, 2018 - Anti-Semitic hate crimes are on the rise, up 57 percent in 2017 from 2016, the ... something to head off, especially when the rise of anti-Semitism is ... stories feed the larger narrative of a debauched world of liberalism that needs cleansing by fire. Europe The anti-Semitism news from Europe in over the past year has been terrible: Jews murdered in Paris and Copenhagen, synagogues attacked by mobs and firebombed, and increasing Jewish emigration attributed to fear of more attacks. CANADA Corbyn must be a very powerful man, doncha think? World antisemitism is sharply on the rise and it's the fault of the British Labour party!!!!!! Are you out of your mind? ANTISEMITISM IS ON THE RISE AGAIN IN LINE WITH THE RISE OF RIGHT-WING POLITICS THROUGHOUT THE WORLD - TRUMP'S AMERICA, BREXIT BRITAIN, EUROPLEAN NEO-NAZIS, RIGHT WING POLITICS IN FORMER COMMUNIST COUNTRIES, ISRAEL POPULISM DRIVEN BY ZENOPHOBIA - a gradual swing to the right throughout the world Antisemitism is the domain o the right - not the left - it always has been and it always will be THe Holocaust was a right-wing affair paid for by German indistrial capitlism Whatever the cause of it, I suggest that Israel's identifying their extremist policies as "Jewish" hasn't helped Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: The UK Labour Party and Antisemitism. From: Iains Date: 06 Sep 18 - 04:11 AM Karen H etymology is a bit of a hobby of mine. I am fully aware of what it means, both its real meaning and the hijacked nuanced urban dictionary meaning. I suspect in this case it was a trendy lefty word nicked out of the gruniard some past sunny day. But at the end of the day the question to be answered is whether antisemitism in labour is real or a a conjuration of the tories. From the mouth of Corbyn we have no option but to accept the reality of the accusation. It is not a case of taking the red pill or the blue pill. The issue is real, has been proven, and perhaps been dealt with(time will tell) In my view this entire insanity has been created by the party leadership being totally ineffectual. For a party hungry for votes come election time, this little escapade will cost them dearly in the poll booth. I suspect the issue will not die and support will wither away. Democracy requires an able opposition in order to function properly. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The UK Labour Party and Antisemitism. From: Dave the Gnome Date: 06 Sep 18 - 04:07 AM No one, as far as I know, has ever denied that there is antisemitism in the Labour party. There is antisemitism, racism, misogyny and all manner of other issues in all walks of life. The point that it is the same for all political parties and worse on the right wing (See antisemitism barometer). There is also the fact that this only came to light when Corbyn took the lead and became worse when he trashed the Tory lead in the last election. The media make their own news and fools fall for it. BTW - Analysis of the British Election Study results – the gold standard of UK polling data – shows that 63 per cent of British Jews voted for the Conservatives in 2017, while just 26 per cent said they voted Labour. In the light of those figures it is quite surprising that only 40% said they would leave if Corbyn became PM. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The UK Labour Party and Antisemitism. From: Iains Date: 06 Sep 18 - 03:49 AM I provided a source yesterday - the Jewish Chronicle. How they gathered their data or if it would have the same accuracy as a mori poll I have no idea. However the accuracy is to an extent a bye the bye. I find it incredible that a country that has prided itself on welcoming all races and all creeds for many centuries should have allowed a political party to arise that generates such fear and loathing among a minority. It makes tommy robinson worthy of canonisation in comparison! |
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Subject: RE: BS: The UK Labour Party and Antisemitism. From: KarenH Date: 06 Sep 18 - 03:45 AM Not very impressed by Ians's comment on the origins of the 'trope', which gives the impression he just looked it up to find out what it means, but didn't quite succeed in understanding what he found. As does this comment: "The idea that antisemitism in the labour party is figurative or metaphorical is clearly away with the faeries." |
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Subject: RE: BS: The UK Labour Party and Antisemitism. From: David Carter (UK) Date: 06 Sep 18 - 03:39 AM You will need to provide a source for your 40%, but if they are thinking of leaving then they have been duped by the far right press. Where would they leave for? They can't go to Europe because we are losing Freedom of Movement. They are unlikely to be welcome in the USA. Israel? Neither Corbyn, nor anyone in the Labour party, are a threat to British Jews. What they might be a threat to, and even this is really pretty unlikely, is the existence of Israel. So to suggest that they would move to Israel if Corbyn was PM is pretty self-defeating. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The UK Labour Party and Antisemitism. From: Iains Date: 06 Sep 18 - 03:19 AM Meanwhile to get back on topic,40% of British Jews say they would leave if Corbyn became Prime Minister. This statistic rather suggests there is some naivety in the ranks if the belief is that the antisemistism accusation is but a cunning ruse and distraction technique by the ruling party. About time you accepted that the accusation is real and is publicly acknowledged by Corbyn the vacuous. I find it extremely entertaining to watch the gymnastics applied by some here in order to avoid the obvious. I suppose if the reality is accepted then you would have to concede that you have backed a loser that is totally unfitted for office. Keep up the gyrations! The idea that antisemitism in the labour party is figurative or metaphorical is clearly away with the faeries. Try a search of youtube and you can see corbyn of wimpyland clearly acknowledging the accusation. This does make the counter arguments somewhat facile. Interestin that the entymology of trope is to turn, a direction, a course. Presumably this means to take the dark side away from light and truth! Very sad really! |
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Subject: RE: BS: The UK Labour Party and Antisemitism. From: Backwoodsman Date: 06 Sep 18 - 02:44 AM There's a couple of photos doing the rounds which show the two men - each one separately and alone - in exactly the same airport corridor, with the date/time stamp exactly the same on each photo. Hmmmmm.... |
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Subject: RE: BS: The UK Labour Party and Antisemitism. From: David Carter (UK) Date: 06 Sep 18 - 02:29 AM The news is only what the May regime wants the news to be bobad. The truth, thats entirely unknown in this case. All that the news says about the Skripal case is unevidenced and hearsay. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The UK Labour Party and Antisemitism. From: Backwoodsman Date: 06 Sep 18 - 02:25 AM "You are right in your assessment that antisemitism in this instance is a trope being used to mask other issues, Robo, but I will have to disagree on what it is being used to mask. The brexiteers do not care about racism. They want to be rid of foreigners anyway. The establishment however are running scared of the rise of the left wing. The attacks on Corbyn and any of his allies are to try and remove his popular support." Spot-on summation Dave. It's a deliberate policy of "Look over there - Labour antisemitism/racism/support for terrorists/yadda yadda" which the government and establishment are using to divert the attention of feeble-minded Daily Mail/Sun/Express readers from the really important issues which will actually affect their lives. Disgusting dishonesty feeding unbelievable stupidity. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The UK Labour Party and Antisemitism. From: robomatic Date: 06 Sep 18 - 02:22 AM Jim Carroll: Earlier today (when you could still see your screen through the spittle)you wrote: Among those who have compared their behaviour to that of the nazis are at least two of the ex-heads of Mossad interviewed for the documentary, 'The Gatekeepers - the other four where highly critical but didn't quite go so far That is a devastating movie which I have watched, and will watch again. It concerns itself with truly difficult, gut-wrenching issues. The difference between those men talking the way they do and you thinking you can use the same terms is that those men know what they're talking about. You do not. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The UK Labour Party and Antisemitism. From: Bonzo3legs Date: 06 Sep 18 - 02:13 AM We made friends with a lovely Russian lady and her (old) 80 year old mother in our Spanish hotel, lovely people compared with a few arrogant Spanish with their out of control catholic brats!! |
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Subject: RE: BS: The UK Labour Party and Antisemitism. From: Dave the Gnome Date: 06 Sep 18 - 02:08 AM You are right in your assessment that antisemitism in this instance is a trope being used to mask other issues, Robo, but I will have to disagree on what it is being used to mask. The brexiteers do not care about racism. They want to be rid of foreigners anyway. The establishment however are running scared of the rise of the left wing. The attacks on Corbyn and any of his allies are to try and remove his popular support. It is not working and will, hopefully, continue to backfire as it did in the last election. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The UK Labour Party and Antisemitism. From: robomatic Date: 06 Sep 18 - 01:26 AM There are real issues and no one is totally clean. But I discriminate among regimes such as Assad's war torn Syria which are death on civilians, abetted by Russia, and civil societies such as the one maintained by Israel, which incorporate considerable diversity at great cost but with great success. Too many critics seem to lump 'em together because they are not perfect. Well, there are millions of people fleeing the imperfections in Syria, Yemen, Sudan North and Sudan South, Somalia, Mali, etc. etc. and there are million of people trying to get into Israel. Think if Israel was so bad they'd be trying to get in so hard? |
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Subject: RE: BS: The UK Labour Party and Antisemitism. From: bobad Date: 05 Sep 18 - 09:54 PM Taste the egg. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The UK Labour Party and Antisemitism. From: Steve Shaw Date: 05 Sep 18 - 09:52 PM Troll. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The UK Labour Party and Antisemitism. From: bobad Date: 05 Sep 18 - 09:50 PM Lol Shaw, still fantasizing about sucking Putin's dick I see. They have got them dead to rights - read the news. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The UK Labour Party and Antisemitism. From: Steve Shaw Date: 05 Sep 18 - 09:49 PM I'll watch that, robomatic, on catch-up. Sackur is very good. It's always on very late here and has, I suspect, a small audience only. It's instructive to hear you say that it wasn't antisemitic. I think that the pro-Israel advocates would rather like to see us walking on those eggshells all the time... |
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Subject: RE: BS: The UK Labour Party and Antisemitism. From: Steve Shaw Date: 05 Sep 18 - 09:43 PM Oh, and the Skripal affair is still a very long way from being resolved. Today, we have the word of the May regime along with a bit of CCTV footage of two rather cheery-looking chaps. Let's wait and see, eh, boobs, and hold fire somewhat on the lynch-mob stuff...? |
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Subject: RE: BS: The UK Labour Party and Antisemitism. From: robomatic Date: 05 Sep 18 - 09:37 PM Last night the BBC radio program(me) "Hard Talk" took on Israel's UN ambassador Danny Danon. The interviewer, Steven Sackur, gave him a hard time. It was a good show. I enjoyed it. It doesn't mean I agreed with everything I heard, but it was precisely the kind of conversation that is necessary in these times, real opinions not soundbites or Twitter chirps. It was not in the least anti-semitic though the BBC interviewer was quite critical. That was his job. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The UK Labour Party and Antisemitism. From: Steve Shaw Date: 05 Sep 18 - 07:14 PM Margaret Hodge: Do read the wiki entry on her. She has a long history of damaging incompetence in all the roles given to her, of inconsistency apropos of Labour foreign policy (she railed against it often, yet voted for the invasion of Iraq, etc), of providing unwarranted publicity which greatly boosted the BNP, of extremely dubious expenses claims, among the highest during the scandal, of massive tax avoidance by her close family, and of lying about Jeremy Corbyn. Fine, quote her in support of your cause 'til the cows come home, but, frankly, she is not the kind of person I'd ever want to listen to. Israel and racism: When Israel came into being in the late 40s, three quarters of a million Arabs, that is, men, women, children, not soldiers or politicos, were either forced to flee or were actively driven out of their homes in what we now call Israel to make a homeland for Jews, many of whom were immigrants. Is that racist? I should say so. Am I antisemitic for making that accurate assessment of the events of that time? No, I am not. Should I be prevented from expressing that view? No, I should not. Feel free to argue the point. But include in your argument the current received wisdom that the NEC caveat is out of order. No it isn't, and to assert otherwise would be a naked attack on freedom of speech. Argue until you're blue in the face about what a bad tactic you think it was. But it is principled. Sod tactics. So should Israel be wiped off the map? No, never. Israel is a state of eight or nine million people, three-quarters only of them Jewish. Men, women, children. A lot of water has gone under the bridge, we are where we are and we have to make the best of what started as a very bad job (don't you just love cliches?) The history of mankind is littered with examples of stolen land making new countries or expanding existing ones. We live with that and, if we are really trying to be civilised, we try to reconcile historical differences and treat all citizens equally as fellow human beings. Unfortunately, that doesn't happen in Israel. In almost every regard, non-Jews in Israel do very badly compared with Jews. That is well-documented and unarguable. I've given details several times in the past, gleaned from reputable sources only, and it's easily checkable. By any measure, that amounts to the perpetuation of the state of Israel as an institutionally-racist endeavour. Not only that, Zionists insist on calling Israel a Jewish state, ignoring the fact that a quarter of its citizens, the ones discriminated against, are not Jews. Applied to any other state, let's say apartheid South Africa or Iain Smith's Rhodesia, and you would never even think of arguing that they weren't racist states. It is very important that we are allowed to state these things with your having the protective umbrella of calling us antisemites for saying so. We are not, because not once have we ever said that these things are done by Jews because that's typical of what Jews do. Never, never, never! Note that I don't say that Jews are institutionally a racist ethnic group. They are not. Ordinary Jewish people are just the same as ordinary Christian people or ordinary Muslim people. They are who they are by accident of birth and, like everybody else, they listen to, are influenced by and are swayed by their leaders. Like everybody else. No different. Like everybody else. Just like us in the UK, a bit thick on the whole when it comes to politics, not their fault (cf. brexit vote...), therefore rather easily manipulated. There are millions of racist Jews in Israel just as there are millions of racist Brits and even more millions of racist yanks. There's nothing special or exalted about Jews. As a matter of fact, when I take my old mum to Prestwich, where there are thousands of Jews, and do a spot of people-watching from the caff, I can't tell who's a Jew and who isn't. And I don't bloody care. I sort of like that. My mum is always trying to guess, trying to Jew-spot, but she's hopeless at it and I have to remonstrate with her every time we go. Oh, and by the way, that caff is thoroughly Jewish, best coffee in the north, and I gave it five stars on Trip Advisor, and I'd take the lovely lady owner 'ome any day if I could get away with it wi' Mrs Steve! |
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Subject: RE: BS: The UK Labour Party and Antisemitism. From: bobad Date: 05 Sep 18 - 07:10 PM You are all left looking very silly with egg on your faces. Yep, just as with the Skripal affair. That's what happens when you're an ideologue and and the ideologies you cling to fail your dogmatic view of the world. Truth has a nasty habit of eventually being revealed and delights in egging ideologues. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The UK Labour Party and Antisemitism. From: robomatic Date: 05 Sep 18 - 05:47 PM DTG: I am way behind on the larger issues obtaining in the UK right now. I'm sure that BREXIT looms large, is it the 'ball' that everyone should bee keeping their eye on or are there similarly large issues being ignored? I have suspected that the 'antisemitism' trope is being used as a ploy while bigger kettles come to boil. Here in 'murrica the issue of a Supreme Court Justice is sort of important but whole swaths of stuff are being ignored (legal/ prison reform, health care reform, military adjustments, NATO, you name 'em they're there) on the cheesy altars of celebrity identity and corporate dominance. Bread and Circuses. I used to know some British Jews. Damn interesting folks. Hard to believe so many of them would be ready to leave what with Jim Carroll and his ilk so loyally advocating for their welfare. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The UK Labour Party and Antisemitism. From: Dave the Gnome Date: 05 Sep 18 - 05:26 PM Robo, your analogy works on a number of levels but the closest is that Corbyn is receiving the same treatment from our right wing as Obama was from your republicans. You can see how good a hatchet job they have done on him by reading the comments on here. He may be far from perfect but, as politicians go, he is most certainly head and shoulders above May's marauders. The fact that he has the entire right wing in arms against him shows how scared they are and what a good job he is doing for the left. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The UK Labour Party and Antisemitism. From: Iains Date: 05 Sep 18 - 04:32 PM A scary Jewish Chronicle survey. Nearly 40% of British Jews would emigrate if Corbyn became PM. The man must be the devil incarnate! https://www.thejc.com/news/uk-news/nearly-40-per-cent-of-british-jews-would-seriously-consider-emigrating-if-corbyn-became-pm-1.469270 |
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Subject: RE: BS: The UK Labour Party and Antisemitism. From: Iains Date: 05 Sep 18 - 04:19 PM THe important thing here is those accusing Labour of antisemitism should Well jimmy here is clot corbyn acknowledging antisemitism, Can we have an apology now? Here you have it straight from the hosse's mouth. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ekuna08vs_c |
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Subject: RE: BS: The UK Labour Party and Antisemitism. From: Iains Date: 05 Sep 18 - 03:59 PM David, Labour should have been hammering the Tories over brexit from day one. Instead they have become sidetracked over issues, that under a forceful leader, would have been resolved rapidly,forcefully, quietly, and in house. Instead it has made headline news worldwide and to be honest I have no idea what Labour's position on brexit really is. A sad indictment of an opposition party totally lacking in credibility. How labour MPs react is a matter for them and their constituents. The problem is to recognise those that have a valid problem and those that are simply grandstanding, meanwhile Rome burns! |
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Subject: RE: BS: The UK Labour Party and Antisemitism. From: Jim Carroll Date: 05 Sep 18 - 03:52 PM THe important thing here is those accusing Labour of antisemitism should Not one of these hypocrites has been able to do this s far (though Iain's has dishonestly claimed that they have) Any offors Robo - no - thought not Friggin' lynch mob - all of you You should be ashamed of your spineless behaviour Jim |
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Subject: RE: BS: The UK Labour Party and Antisemitism. From: David Carter (UK) Date: 05 Sep 18 - 03:47 PM I agree with you to some extent Iains, the important issues should be addressed. So what the hell does Margaret Hodge think she is doing? She should just shut up and get on with opposing the tories. Frank Field of course is a closet tory and a brexit apologist, so nothing else is to be expected from him. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The UK Labour Party and Antisemitism. From: Jim Carroll Date: 05 Sep 18 - 03:08 PM "You are all acting like anti-Obama American Republicans." And you are acting like little David Irvings busilly denying holocausts and mass murders By associating criticism of the Israeli reginme iwth antisemitism you have now obtained the rank of honourary anti semite Go read the definition - it is anti-semitic to make such an accusation You paeple are helping spread the growing anti semitism buy maing Israeli behaviour 'Jewish' THere are already three two many antisemites on this forum without your joining them I suggest you be removed if you repeat your sick and unsustainable accusation I think the more you people post, the more Labour's innocence of what it has been accused of becomes apparent Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: The UK Labour Party and Antisemitism. From: Iains Date: 05 Sep 18 - 03:02 PM Repeatedly bringing up the subject of Wheatcroft betrays the lack of rational counter argument on here. Dragging up past threads achieves absolutely nothing in the way of advancing the discussion about the Labour party and antisemitism. The most divisive event in British politics in decades(namely brexit) is given the backfooting by Labour as they self destruct over a definition of antisemitism accepted in its entirety by 24 of the 28 EU nations. The opposition party is a disgrace and led by a rudderless buffoon that lacks the nous to punch his way out of a very wet brown paper bag, while the lack lustre labour supporters argue over the minutiae of the wording and claim it is a ruse to replace Corbyn. Please keep on with your nonsensical arguments and keep Jeremy the patron saint of idiocy in command of your party. It could not be in a more useless set of hands. Meanwhile brexit comes ever closer. I guess to prioritise is an alien concept for labour supporters. Keep up the good work, you are ensuring st jeremy of the allotment will never make the bigtime in the west. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The UK Labour Party and Antisemitism. From: Jim Carroll Date: 05 Sep 18 - 02:59 PM Since when did on atrocity cancel out another ??? They are equally all war criminals My family were involved in opposing pre-war antisemitism and have always supported Israel - I condemn all despotic behaviour without distinction but am more aware of Israel's because I am an ex- supporter It is an act of betrayal of the six million who died that the present regime is behaving toward the Arabs as the anti semites have behaved towards the Jews throughout history Your "whataboutism" is little more than sick appeasement Many of the worst regimes on the planet today are Britain's and America's allies - and ready customers for British arms Syria was sold British ammunition which possibly went into the training of Homs snipers - Britain supplied riot control equipment to suppress Arab Spring protests and chemicals capable of allowing Assad to build a hue stockpile of chemical weapons You may take our facile comparisons and stick them where they can do the least harm You dismiss these atrocities as 'horrible occurrences' they are war crimes and crimes against humanity -America has used its veto over 100 occasions to prevent condemnation of Israel in the U.N. - 37 of those relate directly to mass murder "It is OFF-TOPIC." If it is off topic, why did you raise Israel's so-called democracy other that you thought you might get away with it? If, as is becoming increasingly obvious, Israel has instigated accusations of antisemitism against a major British Party, it directly concerns Britain as does the fact that Russia intervened in the British and American electoral process, it most certainly s not "off topic" While I believe that to be the case I will continue to raise it despite efforts of you and yours to sweep it under the table Israel a democracy my arse im Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: The UK Labour Party and Antisemitism. From: robomatic Date: 05 Sep 18 - 02:34 PM Actually, Jim and some others have raised not so much an on-topic discussion point so much as a relevant point of attitude. You are all acting like anti-Obama American Republicans. Obama was not perfect. But he was at the very least a good American President. He paid attention to the actual stuff of government that needed attention. He tackled some major issues, such as Healthcare. And what did the Republicans do? They blocked him in every way they could, from policy positins (some of which they had previously endorsed) to pretty much any political appointment they could vote on, especially getting judges at any level approved. And they lied, and they lied and they lied about Obama and Hillary Clinton. They indulged in any form of character assassination they could. And, tactically, it worked. Even in his first administration I was lacking in a way to explain it. Obama was not Muslim. He was not Socialist. He wasn't really that liberal. His administration observed a steady American immigration policy which resulted in many deportations. So what was left? Only the shade of his skin. I started using the term "free floating racism", because while the Republicans insisted 'no, no, we're not racist' the only thing I could think of left to really object to him was that a non-white, the first non-white in a line of over two hundred years of Presidents, had made it legally to the seat of power, and was in addition obviously competent. This madness could not be. Similiarly, of all the national actors in the Mideast, Israel stands out: Multi-ethnic. Democratic. Great business activity. No one says it's perfect. But it is undeniably exceptional. I think it is justifiable to argue that many of the diatribes and voices raised against her are due to free floating anti-Semitism. And I don’t care if you call it anti-Zionism. They are the same thing in this case because it is Israel as a Jewish state that is descried. I think the criticism meted out to Labour is well warranted and many of the folks in this forum are well representing the problem in its most basic form. And for that, I thank you! |
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Subject: RE: BS: The UK Labour Party and Antisemitism. From: robomatic Date: 05 Sep 18 - 02:13 PM Jim, Jim, at some point the blinders have to come off. You can list horrible occurrences to your heart's content, but anyone who can cut and paste can go from Algeria across North Africa across Syria into, let us say, Yemen. Or on to Turkey and their gentle treatment of their Kurdish minority and assemble a counterpile to anything you feel relevant. It is OFF-TOPIC. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The UK Labour Party and Antisemitism. From: Dave the Gnome Date: 05 Sep 18 - 01:54 PM I don't think Corbyn is the second coming, Robo, and have never intimated any such thing. I do not think he deserves the kicking he is getting though. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The UK Labour Party and Antisemitism. From: Jim Carroll Date: 05 Sep 18 - 01:30 PM MISSED A BIT Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: The UK Labour Party and Antisemitism. From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 05 Sep 18 - 01:30 PM Jim, We are not dealing with any state. Stop going on about Israel. Start a thread so all the propaganda you spout can be answered. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The UK Labour Party and Antisemitism. From: Jim Carroll Date: 05 Sep 18 - 01:02 PM THaknk you for the opportunity of making those ponts again - always worth reminding people of the type of state wea are dealing with 107 Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: The UK Labour Party and Antisemitism. From: Jim Carroll Date: 05 Sep 18 - 12:57 PM "Yet all this donnybrook about Israeli policy, which is primarily designed to preserve her existence." No it is not - Israel in a rich State with world-wide support - it a nuclear power with a highly trained heavily armed Israeli Policy is openly aggressive and expansionist, so much so that many Jews are now distancing themselves from their ulta-right win policies Among those who have compared their behaviour to that of the nazis are at least two of the ex-heads of Mossad interviewed for the documentary, 'The Gatekeepers - the other four where highly critical but didn't quite go so far On September 1982, the Israeli Army armed and transported a group of Falangist militiamen to the Sabra Shatila refugee camp in Lebanon, opened the gates and stood by while they massacred up to 3'500 unarmed refugee men women and children over three days; they lit the site of the massacre of two full nits so the massacre could continue day and night, turning back refugees at the gates who attempted to escape. They assisted with the digging of mass graves with their bulldozers, then drove the killers away allowing them to escape Nobody knows the exact death toll as they later built a sports stadiumm over where the bodies were buried Eye witness, American/Jewish nurse, ellen seigal has dedicated her life to bringing Israel to book for the greatest single mass murder of non-combatants in the latter half of the 20th century. The man found to be responsible for facilitating this massacre (even by Israel's own enquiry) Ariel Sharon (founder of the Likud Party) was punished for his crimes by later being elected Prime Minister Of Israel None of this can be described as in any way 'defensive' or 'democratic' Israel's history is peppered wit incidents such as ths - the earliest warning of the possibility of Israel developing into a fasist state was in a letter Letter to The New York Times. December 4, 1948 when he and 26 of his fellow intellectuals recred to massacres that were taking place as far back as that Now, recent surveys have found that between on third and one half of Israeli citizens are in favour of ethnically cleansing Arabs from the territory Where do you get this stuff? Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: The UK Labour Party and Antisemitism. From: robomatic Date: 05 Sep 18 - 12:51 PM The hole is where this thread has gone. From issues to _holes. Leave off the castigating and get back on track. Or end it. DTG: 'Splain me why Corbyn is the second coming. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The UK Labour Party and Antisemitism. From: Dave the Gnome Date: 05 Sep 18 - 12:43 PM Just leave him to it chaps. The hole is getting deeper and deeper! |
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Subject: RE: BS: The UK Labour Party and Antisemitism. From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 05 Sep 18 - 12:41 PM Huff Post, "Jerermy Corbyn Ally Apologises After Saying 'Trump Fanatics' Were 'Making Up' Anti-Semitism Claims Peter Willsman says he is referring himself to receive equalities training." https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/peter-willsman-apology_uk_5b609b7de4b0de86f49b6c6c I was right. You are all left looking very silly with egg on your faces. Ha ha ha! |
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Subject: RE: BS: The UK Labour Party and Antisemitism. From: Dave the Gnome Date: 05 Sep 18 - 12:38 PM If anyone would care to point out the Wheatcroft moment please feel free. But be warned, that route leads to madness :-) |
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Subject: RE: BS: The UK Labour Party and Antisemitism. From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 05 Sep 18 - 12:31 PM whatis te antisemistism you have spent seveal years accusing Labour of ? The anti-Semitism they accuse themselves of. The man's an instictive liar" Except all of you have failed to find a single one! Once again you all resort to baseless personal attack because you have no case. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The UK Labour Party and Antisemitism. From: Dave the Gnome Date: 05 Sep 18 - 12:31 PM The 'smallest quarterback' is the only one in the league with nuclear weapons, Robo. But this is not really anything to do with Israel anyway and is about systematically trying to destroy the Leader of the Labour party because of the major threat he poses to the right wing in all countries. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The UK Labour Party and Antisemitism. From: Backwoodsman Date: 05 Sep 18 - 12:03 PM Aaaaaand...100! |
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Subject: RE: BS: The UK Labour Party and Antisemitism. From: robomatic Date: 05 Sep 18 - 11:34 AM Not only is the definition of antisemitism a field of study, so is the use of racism to describe Israeli policy, attitude, and treatment of Palestinians (so-called). Israelis come in all colors. Palesitinians come in various shades, too. But the actual issues around which things really matter are the ones of land ownership, land occupation, right-of-return (or not). Israel is a democratic country with all races, all religions, all sexual orientations and variations. and a strong capitalistic economy with some strong socialistic institutions. Pick any next-door neighbor to Israel and you get dictatorship, monoculture, oppression of women, educational starvation, and civil strife. Big-time. Yet all this donnybrook about Israeli policy, which is primarily designed to preserve her existence. Piling on to the smallest quarterback in the league because it's the one with the filed teeth. Real brave. Real crazy. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The UK Labour Party and Antisemitism. From: Backwoodsman Date: 05 Sep 18 - 11:15 AM "The man's an instictive liar" Yep. Also the Peter Pan of Mudcat - he never grew up. A childish troll and attention seeker who employs the behaviour of the playground to hook the unwary into his stupid games. He really is best ignored. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The UK Labour Party and Antisemitism. From: Dave the Gnome Date: 05 Sep 18 - 11:07 AM Agreed, Jim. More twists than a John le Carré novel. The sooner that everyone agrees to not get drawn down to the same level, the better. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The UK Labour Party and Antisemitism. From: Jim Carroll Date: 05 Sep 18 - 11:01 AM "So why did he apologise and agree to diversity training?" All parliamentarians need behavioral training - it's like a feckin zoo How can he admit it if he denied it No more keith - whatis te antisemistism you have spent seveal years accusing Labour of ? "FFS! Don't. Feed. The. Troll." He won't answer this so I have done my job and finished The man's an instictive liar Jim Carrl |
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Subject: RE: BS: The UK Labour Party and Antisemitism. From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 05 Sep 18 - 10:53 AM He himself admits it was anti-Semitic (05 Sep 18 - 08:47 AM) to Neither in the text or the audio does he deny that his words were anti-Semitic (05 Sep 18 - 10:12 AM) Both statements verifiably true. What is your point Dave? |
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Subject: RE: BS: The UK Labour Party and Antisemitism. From: Backwoodsman Date: 05 Sep 18 - 10:35 AM "You fell for it earlier though :-D" Ha! That I did Dave. I was giving him a chance to behave like an adult and have a reasoned, rational discussion but, as I ought to have expected, he's firmly and permanently entrenched in the schoolyard, and proved himself incapable. You can't educate pork. It won't happen again. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The UK Labour Party and Antisemitism. From: Dave the Gnome Date: 05 Sep 18 - 10:27 AM You know, thinking about it, I have never denied that I often fart the national anthem. I suppose that means I must admit it. Steve, you have never denied jumping off the wardrobe crying 'Geronimo' while dressed in skin tight spandex. BWM, I have never heard you deny your never ending love for marmalade and pickle sandwiches. There are some very strange people round here... :D tG |
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Subject: RE: BS: The UK Labour Party and Antisemitism. From: Dave the Gnome Date: 05 Sep 18 - 10:22 AM Amen, BWM. You fell for it earlier though :-D |
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Subject: RE: BS: The UK Labour Party and Antisemitism. From: Dave the Gnome Date: 05 Sep 18 - 10:21 AM I will make one prediction though :-) The route from He himself admits it was anti-Semitic (05 Sep 18 - 08:47 AM) to Neither in the text or the audio does he deny that his words were anti-Semitic (05 Sep 18 - 10:12 AM) will feature in the verbal gymnastics that are bound to ensue. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The UK Labour Party and Antisemitism. From: Backwoodsman Date: 05 Sep 18 - 10:19 AM FFS! Don't. Feed. The. Troll. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The UK Labour Party and Antisemitism. From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 05 Sep 18 - 10:17 AM And now Dave has egg on his face too. I was right in what I said. He never denied his words were anti-Semitic. He did not challenge Labour's or Momentum's charge that he had been anti-Semitic. He apologised as requested and agreed to diversity training exactly as I said. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The UK Labour Party and Antisemitism. From: Dave the Gnome Date: 05 Sep 18 - 10:13 AM Give over Chaps. You know the score by now. Everyone has seen what was said and there is no need to engage in the linguistics knots that he will go through to try and win what has already been lost. Don't fall for it! |
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Subject: RE: BS: The UK Labour Party and Antisemitism. From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 05 Sep 18 - 10:12 AM Steve, It was Jim that got it wrong, or lied if you prefer. Here is the link he referred to. Neither in the text or the audio does he deny that his words were anti-Semitic. https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/sep/03/peter-willsman-the-labour-veteran-behind-latest-antisemitism-row Everything I stated was true. You and Jim have egg on your faces again. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The UK Labour Party and Antisemitism. From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 05 Sep 18 - 10:04 AM I did not lie and never have. He did apologise. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The UK Labour Party and Antisemitism. From: Steve Shaw Date: 05 Sep 18 - 10:01 AM Not the point. You lied, just as you lied over Wheatcroft. We don't like you enough not to find you out. You never learn, do you? |
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Subject: RE: BS: The UK Labour Party and Antisemitism. From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 05 Sep 18 - 09:52 AM You lied when you said Willsman admitted what he said was anti-Semitic So why did he apologise and agree to diversity training? |
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Subject: RE: BS: The UK Labour Party and Antisemitism. From: Jim Carroll Date: 05 Sep 18 - 09:37 AM Incidentally Keith You lied when you said Willsman admitted what he said was antisemitic From your own link The veteran leftwing activist Peter Willsman has spent most of his career in Labour politics, either sitting on the NEC or fighting to get on it, making him a well-known figure in party circles even if he is little known to the public. Willsman was part of the Grassroots Alliance slate that humiliated Tony Blair at the height of his power in 1998, winning one of four spots on the party’s ruling body alongside the Islington barrister Liz Davies at the end of a bitterly fought campaign. Even then, Willsman was described as a veteran figure, involved in the Bennite Campaign for Labour Party Democracy (CLPD), the fringe campaign that argued for a party conference accountable to members and mandatory reselection of MPs from as long ago as the 1970s. He remains the secretary of CLPD, which was also once a stomping ground for Jon Lansman, the founder of Momentum. But the two men, both strong supporters of Jeremy Corbyn, are not thought to be close as they once were, as shown by Momentum’s decision to remove Willsman from its slate when he ran into controversy in July. At the end of that month, Willsman was recorded as calling some Jews “Trump fanatics”, adding he would “not be lectured” by Jewish supporters of the US president “making up duff information without any evidence at all”, at an NEC meeting in July at which Corbyn was present. Peter Willsman dismisses Labour antisemitism claims – audio A recording was leaked to the Jewish Chronicle and his critics in the party were quick to pile in. Tom Watson, the party’s deputy leader, tweeted: “For the avoidance of doubt: Peter Willsman is and always has been a loud-mouthed bully. He disgusts me.” A few days later Willsman apologised, saying he was >“of course aware of appalling instances of antisemitism in the party”, that he was “wholly determined to rooting it out of our movement” and that he would undertake equalities training. Why do you do this - you always get found out? Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: The UK Labour Party and Antisemitism. From: Jim Carroll Date: 05 Sep 18 - 09:27 AM THe labour Party leadership is playing to the crowd Accusing members of loving Trump is not antisemitic, no matter who says it is This is exactly the damage to the Jewish People I have described - nobody knows what antisemitism is any more You explain why saying what he said is antisemitic and sop hiding behind what you claim others have said - you've done this far too often as you did when you claimed all Muslims were culturally implanted o have uderage sex - I've linked you to that one so don't you dare deny it "Corbyn opposes any kind of boycott as a tactic to persuade the Israeli state to act as if it has a conscience. " I think orbyn is caught between a rock and a hard place here - as he is with Brexit On the one hand, he has the support of the Rank and File, on the other, he is faced with a benchful of career politicians more concerned about their bank-balances than they are about Socialism So far, he's walked the tightrope pretty well despite Israel's efforts to bring him down What he does now wil make him or break him Britain desperately needs a party wit real alternative policies - he seems to be a hope of that, which is why he has my support Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: The UK Labour Party and Antisemitism. From: KarenH Date: 05 Sep 18 - 09:20 AM This appears (and I may be wrong on this) to be an example which has made Corbyn cautious: Denying the Jewish people their right to self-determination, e.g., by claiming that the existence of a State of Israel is a racist endeavor. Let's assume that the authors of the definition disagree with the claim. Maybe we should discuss why the State of Israel is not 'a racist endeavor'? |
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Subject: RE: BS: The UK Labour Party and Antisemitism. From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 05 Sep 18 - 08:47 AM - I've just listened to a recording of exactly what he said - I suggest you do the same I have. The Labour Party leadership says it is anti-Semitic. Momentum says it is anti-Semitic. He himself admits it was anti-Semitic. Jim say it is not. No surprise there. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The UK Labour Party and Antisemitism. From: David Carter (UK) Date: 05 Sep 18 - 08:39 AM It does seem that there are various people, on this thread, in various of the media, and in the Labour party, who are seeking to use allegations of anti-semitism to shut down support for the Palestinian cause. Good for Corbyn for resisting this. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The UK Labour Party and Antisemitism. From: Jack Campin Date: 05 Sep 18 - 08:38 AM Corbyn opposes any kind of boycott as a tactic to persuade the Israeli state to act as if it has a conscience. With opposition like that, Israel is crying all the way to the bank. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The UK Labour Party and Antisemitism. From: KarenH Date: 05 Sep 18 - 07:56 AM I looked at the NY Times article. While Mr. Corbyn insists he abhors racism and has offered several expressions of regret and apologies over the anti-Semitism claims, he is in no mood to hide either his criticism of Israel or the support he has given to pro-Palestinian causes for decades. Good for Corbyn. Pity the NY Times journalist appears to take such a dim view of support for pro-Palestinian causes. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The UK Labour Party and Antisemitism. From: Jim Carroll Date: 05 Sep 18 - 07:47 AM It was on the cards that the signing off of this definition was not going to satisfy hard-liners Johnson, with his racist history confirms the interest the right have in this affair It has never been more than using the Jewish People as human shields from day one Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: The UK Labour Party and Antisemitism. From: KarenH Date: 05 Sep 18 - 07:26 AM According to the Daily Express today Labour leader Jeremy Corbyn has himself been under fire for his handling of the anti-Semitism problem, especially for calling for the NEC to accept a clarification that it should not be considered anti-Semitic to describe Israel as racist. and However, the NEC has faced backlash for also passing a statement of clarification that the changes do “not in any way undermine freedom of expression” on Israel or the rights of Palestinians. Campaigners said the party seems “determined to provide a safe space for anti-Semites” and adding such a caveat to the internationally accepted definition just gives racists a free pass. It isn't clear which campaigners allegedly said this from the Express article. Jewish Leadership Council chief executive Simon Johnson said: “It has now become absolutely clear that the leader of the party attempted shamefully to undermine the entire IHRA definition. “The ‘free speech caveat’ drives a coach and horses through the IHRA definition. It will do nothing to stop anti-Semitism in the party.” Johnson also accused Corbyn of being more keen on protecting the rights of 'those who hate Israel' than he is to protect the Jewish community from the real threats that it faces. He claimed that the definition does allow "vociferous criticism" of Israel and Israeli policies, but the Express article leaves this out. Here I am just contributing what might be useful information, not wishing to imply agreement with the approach of Johnson or the Express. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The UK Labour Party and Antisemitism. From: Jim Carroll Date: 05 Sep 18 - 07:13 AM We do not have to specify the allegations against the labour party." Yes you do - wat are they exactly I say they are attacks on Israel - what is your version? Thefact that ou will continue to refuse to reply will have mademy point for me - for which - my thanks Your bully aggressive insulting reflects exctly your politics - again - my thanks for proving my point You of all people arenot in the position to talk down to people - either intellectually or morally - always the case with would-be bullies - especially tose wo do their bulling from the safety of anonymity and distance Have a brave day now Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: The UK Labour Party and Antisemitism. From: Iains Date: 05 Sep 18 - 07:13 AM The NYT has a cruel summary of Labour SNATCHING DEFEAT FROM THE JAWS OF VICTORY https://www.nytimes.com/2018/09/04/world/europe/uk-labour-anti-semitism-corbyn.html Good to see a real newspaper agree with me. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The UK Labour Party and Antisemitism. From: Jim Carroll Date: 05 Sep 18 - 07:06 AM I don't care Keith DEscribing protersing Israeli supporters as 'Trump Lovers id not antisemitism - I've just listened to a recording of exactly what he said - I suggest you do the same Now will you please stop blaming the jewish people for what Israel is doing - it's antisemitic Jim Carrill |
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Subject: RE: BS: The UK Labour Party and Antisemitism. From: Iains Date: 05 Sep 18 - 07:05 AM "You and Keith, as right wingers are supporting that interference" Wild allegations without a shred of evidence. Away with the faeries as usual. In the world of Carrol 2+2=5. We do not have to specify the allegations against the labour party. Any newspaper in the UK has been drumming on about it for months. Why should I repeat endlessly what is already a matter of public record, or do you like having your nose rubbed in it repeatedly? "Jeremy Corbyn has been accused of attempting to “sully” an internationally recognised definition of anti-Semitism with a last-minute caveat which would have allowed Labour activists to describe the foundation of Israel as “racist” That stupidity got nipped in the bud a bit smartish like! Is this the new labour technique of guaranteeing they will never form a government? |
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Subject: RE: BS: The UK Labour Party and Antisemitism. From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 05 Sep 18 - 07:02 AM I was referring to yesterday's calls to expel him for calling protesters Trump lovers Keith So was I. Everything I said was about that. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The UK Labour Party and Antisemitism. From: Jim Carroll Date: 05 Sep 18 - 06:27 AM I was referring to yesterday's calls to expel him for calling protesters Trump lovers Keith I know nothing of earlier occurrences I have little doubt that some Labour party members have followed israel's lead in blaming the Jewish People for their atrocities - I said at the beginning of all this that Israel's behaviour has painted a target on the back of every Jew on the Planet Israel has managed not only to create Jewish non-Jews, but its misuse of the term has made 'antisemitism' totally meaningless Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: The UK Labour Party and Antisemitism. From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 05 Sep 18 - 06:06 AM What on earth in anti-semitic about any of that (Willsman's bile) Guardian, A few days later Willsman apologised, saying he was “of course aware of appalling instances of antisemitism in the party” So he accepts he was being anti-Semitic and he confirms that in the party it is appalling. Momentum withdrew its backing of him for the NEC because of his anti-Semitism. Labour demanded he apologise for his anti-Semitism and attend diversity training. Jim says it was not anti-Semitic but Momentum, the Labour leadership and Willsman himself said it was. Also the Deputy Leader said he was "a loud mouthed bully." |
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Subject: RE: BS: The UK Labour Party and Antisemitism. From: Jack Campin Date: 05 Sep 18 - 05:45 AM Corbyn himself is anti-BDS, as you well know! I didn't know that, thanks. https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/dec/13/jeremy-corbyn-does-not-support-boycott-of-israel-bds-movement What I did know was that he backs the Tories on Brexit and on the obliteration of Scotland as a nation. Which made him a despicable enough slimebag already. Backing the genocide of the Palestinians is entirely consistent with the evil I already knew he promoted. I guess we will shortly find he also backs the Myanmar state on exterminating the Rohingya and the Saudis on exterminating the Shia of Yemen. The seems to be no grate stopping his slide down the moral gutter. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The UK Labour Party and Antisemitism. From: Jim Carroll Date: 05 Sep 18 - 04:48 AM "How you come up with that ludicrous statement from anything I have posted," That a supporter of this fuck-up of of a government presently in the process of stumbling Britain out of Europe and into an economic/political abyss can suggest that a principled politician like Corbyn is unfit to lead his party says everything that needs to be said about their intention here - nothing to do with anti-semitism - just right-wing politicicising Israel is now attempting to interfere in British politics (with a degree of success), just as Russia did with the US elections and Brexit You and Keith, as right wingers are supporting that interference "Corbyn himself is anti-BDS, as you well know!" So what Keith - unlike you, I don't swallow the word of politicians wholesale - I can disagree with them and still respect them Corbyn will, if he has anything about him, will be forced to support BDS - he has no other alternative BDS is no different thsn was the Snti Apartheid campaign against South Africa - same problems different location Willsman accused the demonstrators against Corbyn of being Trump Lovers and he attacked the Zionists attempting to influence Labour policy - he did not mention the Jewish People Trump is supporting the israeli re#gime and that regime is kissing his are#se by naming a railway station after him What on earth in anti-semitic about any of that Trum is a fascist thug and Israel is supporting him - israel has masterminded this whole ant-Corbyn campaign The only antisemitism herte is by those who equate any of this with the Jewish People - it even says so in the new definition Holding Jews collectively responsible for actions of the state of Israel. And still no specifying the charges of antisemitism from either of you - I never expected it - lynch mobs don't go in fro that sort of thing Jim Carroll Sorry for the double postings - keyboard trouble sfter a spilled coffee cup |
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Subject: RE: BS: The UK Labour Party and Antisemitism. From: Steve Shaw Date: 05 Sep 18 - 04:37 AM What "ruling party?" Would that be the one propped up by a bought-off tawdry bunch of terrorist sympathisers? |
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Subject: RE: BS: The UK Labour Party and Antisemitism. From: Iains Date: 05 Sep 18 - 03:52 AM "nk you for confirming this this is about right wing extremism and nothing to do with the Jewish People Iains" How you come up with that ludicrous statement from anything I have posted, totally escapes me.Perhaps you would care to explain your logic in deriving such a position? My position is that Corbyn is leading the labour party into the wilderness(hopefully for ever) and he is doing it all by himself. All the ruling party needs to do is simply cheer on his stupidity from the sidelines. He is the architect of his own dismal failure. That is abundantly clear to all but a few diehards inhabiting this particular bit of cyberspace. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The UK Labour Party and Antisemitism. From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 05 Sep 18 - 03:41 AM Jim, ; all the accusations made against Corbyn and his supporters concern their criticism of Israel and NOT attacks on the Jewish People and that all these accusations are part of the ANTI-BDS CAMPAIGN Corbyn himself is anti-BDS, as you well know! What is incredibly stupid is that some jewish \re demanding the expulsion of John Willsman for referring to them as 'Trump lovers' Momentum expelled him over what he said without an prompting from anyone, and Labour demanded he apologise, which he did, and go for diversity training. You are the only person I have heard defend his anti-Semitism. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The UK Labour Party and Antisemitism. From: Jim Carroll Date: 05 Sep 18 - 03:19 AM nk you for confirming this this is about right wing extremism and nothing to do with the Jewish People Iains - you couldn't have timed it better Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: The UK Labour Party and Antisemitism. From: Jim Carroll Date: 05 Sep 18 - 03:16 AM It was a programme deliberately and rather crudely designed to, on the one hand smear the Labour leadership by presenting them as Anti-semitic and on the other, to present Israel as a defensive victim of terrorist attacks rather than what it has become, an extremist right wing state in the process of 'purifying' itself of its legitimate Aarab citizens It viewed as a blatant 'Party Political Broadcast on behalf of the Likud Party'; as someone born during WW2, with all the memories and emotions that provokes, it filled me with horror and disgust - a one-sided rant for extremism Up to the time I stormed out, it in no way attempted to describe antisemitism experienced by the participants at the hands of Labour members, just repetitions of the accusations we have all been bombarded with from the right-wing establishment and media since Corbyn first expressed his support and sympathy for the plight of the Palestinian people The two things it established beyond any doubt; all the accusations made against Corbyn and his supporters concern their criticism of Israel and NOT attacks on the Jewish People and that all these accusations are part of the ANTI-BDS CAMPAIGN Time for an alternative view of Israel, I think A Jewish view of the effect of Israel's behaviour on Diaspora Jews from an Smerican/Jewish founded source makes interesting reading DIASPORA JEWS Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: The UK Labour Party and Antisemitism. From: Jim Carroll Date: 05 Sep 18 - 03:16 AM It was a programme deliberately and rather crudely designed to, on the one hand smear the Labour leadership by presenting them as Anti-semitic and on the other, to present Israel as a defensive victim of terrorist attacks rather than what it has become, an extremist right wing state in the process of 'purifying' itself of its legitimate Aarab citizens It viewed as a blatant 'Party Political Broadcast on behalf of the Likud Party'; as someone born during WW2, with all the memories and emotions that provokes, it filled me with horror and disgust - a one-sided rant for extremism Up to the time I stormed out, it in no way attempted to describe antisemitism experienced by the participants at the hands of Labour members, just repetitions of the accusations we have all been bombarded with from the right-wing establishment and media since Corbyn first expressed his support and sympathy for the plight of the Palestinian people The two things it established beyond any doubt; all the accusations made against Corbyn and his supporters concern their criticism of Israel and NOT attacks on the Jewish People and that all these accusations are part of the ANTI-BDS CAMPAIGN Time for an alternative view of Israel, I think A Jewish view of the effect of Israel's behaviour on Diaspora Jews from an Smerican/Jewish founded source makes interesting reading DIASPORA JEWS Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: The UK Labour Party and Antisemitism. From: Iains Date: 05 Sep 18 - 03:06 AM The only thing to take away from this unsavoury labour feuding is that it clearly demonstrates to the entire world how totally unsuited Corbyn is to be a party leader. Long may he reign, his party will never gain power with him at the helm. As an opposition party they have all the impact of a wet lettuce. I just luv it! |
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Subject: RE: BS: The UK Labour Party and Antisemitism. From: David Carter (UK) Date: 05 Sep 18 - 02:26 AM I didn't see the programme, but if the title was "We are British Jews", you would have expected it to focus on their life as Jews in Britain, rather than any other country. Am I being too naive? |
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Subject: RE: BS: The UK Labour Party and Antisemitism. From: Jim Carroll Date: 04 Sep 18 - 09:20 PM Earlier tonight I sat (partially) through the television programme 'We Are British Jews' tonight - _ I say !partially - I can't remember being more angry at a total distorion of fact outright lies, bullying and blustering and right wing propaganda A group of 'ordinary' Jewish people described how poor little nuclear facilitated Israel was fighting for her existence from attacks by Arab terrorists who wished to turn her from a peace loving refuge for Jewish People to an Arab state No mention of massacres, destruction of homes and schools indiscriminate bombings, use of chemical and anti-personnel weapons, land grabbing, mass evictions......... certainly no reference of the fact that Israel facilitated the greatest single massacre of unarmed civilians in the latter half of the 20th century - not a mention of the fact that Israel has just murdered nearly twice the number of demonstrators as did the Apartheid regime in South Africa - certainly no comarison of casualty figures Israel was the victim - the Arabs were the perpetrators No siege was taking place in Gaza - the Israelis were just preventing weapons being brought into the country that would be used to murder Jews. The rather timid young woman who spoke up on behalf of Palestinian suffering was bullied into silence It was like listening to a room of screaming Keiths Behind it all was rhge gentler voice of the commentator, Stephen Mangan (who, up t now, I have admired, with lie after lie, distortion after distortion It was a crude propaganda exercise on behalf of a terrorist state which is systematically ethnically cleansing Arab families from their homes to mak room for people of the "right ethnic background" - with the apparent support of between one third and a half of its citizens This programme stands as indisputable evidence that all accusations of Labour Antisemitism are about defending the Israeli regime AND NOTHING ELSE I very much doubt if the Palestinians will be given an equal chance to state their cae THAT WOULD BE ANTISEMITIC BY TODAY'S RULES If any more proof were needed, that fact that the couple of Israeli supporters here have refused with their silence to specify what they are accusing Labour of BRING ON BDS - THE MORE EFFECTIvE, THE BETTER Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: The UK Labour Party and Antisemitism. From: Jim Carroll Date: 04 Sep 18 - 09:20 PM Earlier tonight I sat (partially) through the television programme 'We Are British Jews' tonight - _ I say !partially - I can't remember being more angry at a total distorion of fact outright lies, bullying and blustering and right wing propaganda A group of 'ordinary' Jewish people described how poor little nuclear facilitated Israel was fighting for her existence from attacks by Arab terrorists who wished to turn her from a peace loving refuge for Jewish People to an Arab state No mention of massacres, destruction of homes and schools indiscriminate bombings, use of chemical and anti-personnel weapons, land grabbing, mass evictions......... certainly no reference of the fact that Israel facilitated the greatest single massacre of unarmed civilians in the latter half of the 20th century - not a mention of the fact that Israel has just murdered nearly twice the number of demonstrators as did the Apartheid regime in South Africa - certainly no comarison of casualty figures Israel was the victim - the Arabs were the perpetrators No siege was taking place in Gaza - the Israelis were just preventing weapons being brought into the country that would be used to murder Jews. The rather timid young woman who spoke up on behalf of Palestinian suffering was bullied into silence It was like listening to a room of screaming Keiths Behind it all was rhge gentler voice of the commentator, Stephen Mangan (who, up t now, I have admired, with lie after lie, distortion after distortion It was a crude propaganda exercise on behalf of a terrorist state which is systematically ethnically cleansing Arab families from their homes to mak room for people of the "right ethnic background" - with the apparent support of between one third and a half of its citizens This programme stands as indisputable evidence that all accusations of Labour Antisemitism are about defending the Israeli regime AND NOTHING ELSE I very much doubt if the Palestinians will be given an equal chance to state their cae THAT WOULD BE ANTISEMITIC BY TODAY'S RULES If any more proof were needed, that fact that the couple of Israeli supporters here have refused with their silence to specify what they are accusing Labour of BRING ON BDS - THE MORE EFFECTIvE, THE BETTER Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: The UK Labour Party and Antisemitism. From: Steve Shaw Date: 04 Sep 18 - 06:20 PM It is not "splitting hairs" to remind you that 24 EU countries is not all 28 EU countries, that the EU has no power to insist that any country adopts the definition and that the definition is not in any way, shape or form legally binding on any nation. All these things are checkable. Therefore your point that failing to adopt the definition would put Labour into dispute with the EU falls (academic though the point has now become). There can be be no "major international issue" over not adopting the definition. I haven't noted any particular "major international issues" apropos of the 164 countries, the vast majority, that haven't adopted the definition. It's a very simple matter to check your facts before posting. During your absence from the forum this kind of sloppy playing fast and loose with facts that you have resorted to more than once today didn't take place and there was harmony around here. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The UK Labour Party and Antisemitism. From: Iains Date: 04 Sep 18 - 06:01 PM "On 1 June 2017 the European Parliament voted to adopt a resolution calling on member states and their institutions to adopt and apply the International Holocaust Remembrance Alliance working definition of antisemitism. 24 of the IHRA's 31 Member Countries are members of the European Union. Austria, Romania and the United Kingdom have already formally adopted the working definition. The European Parliament resolution passed on Thursday(01/06/17) calls on member states to protect their Jewish citizens and Jewish institutions from hate crime and hate speech, to support law enforcement efforts to identify and prosecute antisemitic attacks, to appoint national coordinators on combating antisemitism, systematically and publicly condemn antisemitic statements, to promote education about the Holocaust in schools, and to review schoolbooks regarding content related to Jewish history and contemporary Jewish life." You may wish to split hairs and argue over the semantics of the resolution but 24 EU countries are members of IHRA. How long do you think they would have tolerated Labour dissenting. As a puny ineffective opposition party their dissent could perhaps be ignored, BUT any sniff of becoming the ruling party would focus attention on this dissent and it would become a major international issue.Especially as the ruling party has already signed up to the resolution. I have no need to check the facts, Realpolitik would dictate the outcome, as you very well know. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The UK Labour Party and Antisemitism. From: Steve Shaw Date: 04 Sep 18 - 05:02 PM "This resolution would clearly put Labour in dispute with the EU had it not adopted the definition today" Not so. The EU has urged member states to adopt the resolution but has no power to insist on it. It pays to check your facts. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The UK Labour Party and Antisemitism. From: Iains Date: 04 Sep 18 - 04:08 PM Well Jim, the Israeli justice minister will garner very little support for his ridiculous assertion. Criticism of Israeli politics is a very different proposition to criticising Jews and the IHRA working definition on Antisemitism clearly differentiates between the two concepts. It is also worth noting that On 1 June 2017, the European Parliament adopted its first ever resolution on combating Antisemitism, including the IHRA working definition on Antisemitism. This resolution would clearly put Labour in dispute with the EU had it not adopted the definition today. I would have thought the Labour leadership would have foreseen this problem as soon as the the European Parliament adopted its first ever resolution on combating Antisemitism, including the IHRA working definition. That was back in June 2017. So instead of acting like a credible opposition party for the last year, they have been busy ripping themselves apart over an issue that the eu WOULD HAVE RAMMED DOWN THEIR COLLECTIVE THROAT ANYWAY. This does make a person wonder just what planet the Labour leadership inhabit. I am sure my conclusions must be shared by many. We saw what happened in Catalonia when the party tried to thwart the EU, would Labour kid themselves they would fare any better? As a total aside. (RT 2 hours ago reports they are trying a second time for independance and their is talk of a referendum for more autonomy) |
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Subject: RE: BS: The UK Labour Party and Antisemitism. From: Jim Carroll Date: 04 Sep 18 - 03:00 PM "Criticism of Israeli politics is perfectly allowable under the definition." That was the pronlem - it became a minefield to criticise Zionism The Israel justice minister has deeclares all criticism of Israel antisemitisic there's one top Israeli at odds with that statement The next logical step for the humanists in the Labour Party is to push for party support doer BDS Whatever the career politicians think of this I have little doubt it will find support among the rank-and-file THEY WILL CERTAINLY FIND SUPPORT ELSEWHERE Jim Caaarroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: The UK Labour Party and Antisemitism. From: punkfolkrocker Date: 04 Sep 18 - 02:14 PM Why don't they just hand over running of the Labour Party to Israel.... there.. problem solved... ..except even that probably wouldn't satisfy them... |
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Subject: RE: BS: The UK Labour Party and Antisemitism. From: Iains Date: 04 Sep 18 - 02:03 PM Criticism of Israeli politics is perfectly allowable under the definition. And let's face it, Israeli politics presents many facets that invite criticism. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The UK Labour Party and Antisemitism. From: Jim Carroll Date: 04 Sep 18 - 01:48 PM "The clarification added will continue to fuel controversy. How stupid" Waste of tim,e asking why What is incredibly stupid is that some jewish \re demanding the expulsion of John Willsman for referring to them as 'Trump lovers' Apparently nobody hass told them that Israel is proposing to name a railway station after this highly-respected politician This incredible piece of double-think is exactly why any safeguards against right-wing hypocrisy such as this are essential Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: The UK Labour Party and Antisemitism. From: Iains Date: 04 Sep 18 - 01:28 PM " Labour’s ruling body has agreed to adopt the International Holocaust Remembrance Alliance’s definition of antisemitism in full and issue a clarification emphasising the right to non-racist free speech when discussing Middle Eastern politics. The national executive committee (NEC) accepted the IHRA definition with all 11 examples at a tense afternoon meeting where Jeremy Corbyn was present, in an attempt to end the long-running row about alleged antisemitism within the party. The clarification added will continue to fuel controversy. How stupid! |
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Subject: RE: BS: The UK Labour Party and Antisemitism. From: Jim Carroll Date: 04 Sep 18 - 01:19 PM Labour has agreed to accept the definition. Game over. We'll see Now Israel and America are free to starve the Palestinians into submission - which was basically what all this was about Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: The UK Labour Party and Antisemitism. From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 04 Sep 18 - 01:19 PM David, she says she disagrees with the right to return policy but never suggests that it is anti-Semitic to support it. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The UK Labour Party and Antisemitism. From: Iains Date: 04 Sep 18 - 01:09 PM https://www.theguardian.com/politics/blog/live/2018/sep/04/brexit-raab-labour-nec-antisemitism-corbyn-should-use-conference-spee Well here they are. Where they should have been months ago. Prevarication has only caused the party harm and to what end? |
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Subject: RE: BS: The UK Labour Party and Antisemitism. From: Dave the Gnome Date: 04 Sep 18 - 01:00 PM If only it was game over but there will still be those on here and in the press gunning for Corbyn while the real racists in the Tory party and on here keep getting away with it. Let's do a little survey shall we? How many of you brave upholders of Judaism were manning the barricades when synagogues were burnt down in London or desecrated in Swansea? How many of you showed a glimmer of interest before Corbyn was selected as party leader? |
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Subject: RE: BS: The UK Labour Party and Antisemitism. From: Dave the Gnome Date: 04 Sep 18 - 12:49 PM I know, John. And why :-) You can't tell us Gnomes owt! |
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Subject: RE: BS: The UK Labour Party and Antisemitism. From: Backwoodsman Date: 04 Sep 18 - 12:48 PM "If we stick to facts instead of predigested half-baked prejudices we CAN discuss ANYTHING! But when you get someone who proclaims that "the whole world has adopted it..." And the absolute proof of that was the peace and harmony that reigned during the recent period of absence of that 'someone' (and his mate, who now seems to have re-appeared). |
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Subject: RE: BS: The UK Labour Party and Antisemitism. From: Iains Date: 04 Sep 18 - 12:48 PM Labour has agreed to accept the definition. Game over. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The UK Labour Party and Antisemitism. From: Backwoodsman Date: 04 Sep 18 - 12:45 PM Stilly never went away, Dave - she was just incognito! |
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Subject: RE: BS: The UK Labour Party and Antisemitism. From: Steve Shaw Date: 04 Sep 18 - 12:45 PM If we stick to facts instead of predigested half-baked prejudices we CAN discuss ANYTHING! But when you get someone who proclaims that "the whole world has adopted it..." |
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Subject: RE: BS: The UK Labour Party and Antisemitism. From: Dave the Gnome Date: 04 Sep 18 - 12:32 PM It's silly, Stilly (scuse the pun). Everyone knows that some only come here to argue, Keith has said that is what he does. Yet others keep falling for it. I would just evict them but if that is not to be, ignoring is the next best thing. Nice to see the true you back BTW. :-) |
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Subject: RE: BS: The UK Labour Party and Antisemitism. From: Stilly River Sage Date: 04 Sep 18 - 11:56 AM You guys sure know how to start hot-button threads. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The UK Labour Party and Antisemitism. From: David Carter (UK) Date: 04 Sep 18 - 11:54 AM Joan Ryan, chair of Labour Friends of Israel, does not explicitly use the word antisemitic, but brands Jeremy Corbyn's support of the Right of Return as "extreme and illegitimate". https://www.middleeastmonitor.com/20180629-labour-friends-of-israel-palestine-refugees-right-to-return-is-extreme-and-illegitima |
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Subject: RE: BS: The UK Labour Party and Antisemitism. From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 04 Sep 18 - 11:41 AM There are some in the UK Labour party who would have it that promoting the Palestinian right of return, as supported by Article 11 of UN General Assembly resolution 194, is antisemitic. It would be interesting to see what people here think Of course it is not anti-Semitic, and I challenge you to show that anyone in Labour says it is. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The UK Labour Party and Antisemitism. From: Steve Shaw Date: 04 Sep 18 - 11:21 AM I posted this wiki extract in the "wrong" thread so I'm posting it again here. It's the opinion of the man who first drew up the definition. I doubt whether Keith and co. will really want to listen to him, let alone contemplate the tainted history of the misuse and abuse of the definition. Here's what the originator of the definition, Kenneth Stern, now has to say about its abuse (from wiki): The main drafter of the working definition and its examples, Kenneth S. Stern, has not critised the definition, but has cautioned against the free speech implications of its use as a legal tool. In 2011, he co-authored an article about how the 'Working Definition' was being abused in Title VI cases, because it was being employed in an attempt to "restrict academic freedom and punish political speech." He stated that even when these cases were lost "they chilled pro-Palestinian expression" and "McCarthy-like" usage. In November 2017, Stern explained to the US House of Representatives that the definition has been abused on various US university campuses. He warned that it could "restrict academic freedom and punish political speech" and questioned whether definitions created by minority groups should be legislatively enshrined, giving as one of several examples: "Imagine a definition designed for Palestinians. If "Denying the Jewish people their right to selfdetermination, and denying Israel the right to exist" is antisemitism, then shouldn't "Denying the Palestinian people their right to self-determination, and denying Palestine the right to exist" be anti-Palestinianism? Would they then ask administrators to police and possibly punish campus events by pro-Israel groups who oppose the two state solution, or claim the Palestinian people are a myth?" He states that the definition was created with data collectors in mind. "I encouraged the Department of State's first Special Envoy for Antisemitism to promote the definition as an important tool. He used it effectively as the framework for a report on global antisemitism." He added: "approaches to antisemitism that endorse and promote academic freedom are more likely to work, in part because they underscore the academy’s goal of increasing knowledge and promoting critical thinking.... approaches that explain academic freedom away or harm it will not only fail, they make the problem worse." |
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Subject: RE: BS: The UK Labour Party and Antisemitism. From: Steve Shaw Date: 04 Sep 18 - 11:10 AM Several of the examples in tbe so-called definition are extremely problematic. I repeat. The definition was drawn up by a committee of pro-Israel advocates at the request of the EU. The definition was seen as badly-drafted and weak and was NEVER adopted by the body that commissioned it. It was eventually removed from the website of the FRA, the successor body to the EUMC who first commissioned the definition, having never been adopted. It had never got past the work-in-progess stage. It was deemed unworkable and too controversially in favour of restricting criticism of Israel. Three years after it was finally ditched it was jumped on by the IHRA. They adopted it more or less verbatim, with all its badly-drafted phraseology, without scrutiny (which they admitted - not my opinion). Since then it has been adopted by 31 countries who have allied themselves to that body. That is not "the whole world" for the information of Iains. There are 195 countries in the world. So 164 countries have not adopted the definition. The man who first drafted the definition is unhappy with the manner in which it has been used to restrict free speech and criticism of Israel, stating that that was not the definition's intention. I'd suggest that political pressure to adopt this definition in full without demur is improper. Credit to Labour so far for the resisting the clamour of the headless chickens. I'll be disappointed if Labour caves in and am absolutely certain that, if they do, it won't be the end of of the matter, not by a country mile. After all, this isn't about antisemitism at all. It's about trying to unseat Corbyn by the disaffected right-wing of the Party and about preventing, at all costs, the election to PM of a leader who is one of the very few in the west who is sympathetic to the plight of the Palestinians in a way that is more than just paying lip service. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The UK Labour Party and Antisemitism. From: Jim Carroll Date: 04 Sep 18 - 10:58 AM "The frothings of the lefties here are entirely vacuous, as usual." Is trhere a moderator available to remove this person - i9f not, why not This is a deliberate attempt to scupper thi thread before it gets going Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: The UK Labour Party and Antisemitism. From: Dave the Gnome Date: 04 Sep 18 - 10:45 AM The frothings of the lefties here are entirely vacuous, as usual. And the abuse dealt out by you is entirely predictable. Did you not learn anything from your forced time out? |
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Subject: RE: BS: The UK Labour Party and Antisemitism. From: David Carter (UK) Date: 04 Sep 18 - 10:27 AM There are some in the UK Labour party who would have it that promoting the Palestinian right of return, as supported by Article 11 of UN General Assembly resolution 194, is antisemitic. It would be interesting to see what people here think. To me regarding this as antisemitic is a step too far. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The UK Labour Party and Antisemitism. From: Iains Date: 04 Sep 18 - 10:03 AM "Nice attempt to portray it as false news, but when Al Jazeera gives it headlines I think a rational person would accept the story has wings" So you would deny Arab newspapers the right to credibility - yeah - that sounds fair to me !!!!! ??????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????? The wrong end of the stick as usual! I say one thing in very plain english. You come up with a totally off the wall interpretation of what was said. How very typical! The present UK ruling party sees fit to accept the definition in its entirety. A shame the wannabee pm corbyn of the allotment cannot do the same. Is he man or mouse? The frothings of the lefties here are entirely vacuous, as usual. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The UK Labour Party and Antisemitism. From: KarenH Date: 04 Sep 18 - 10:00 AM My view is that there is probably just as much anti-Jewish animus in the Conservative Party if not more than in the Labour Party. The fact that some anti-Labour newspapers have chosen to give this big headlines has to be party political as much as it is anything else. I do know of Jewish Labour Party members who get fed up of its being automatically assumed that they are zionists simply because they are Jewish and who feel that this is antisemitic. I was not intending to state that the purpose or the whole purpose of this document is to protect 'extreme Zionist action', though I would imagine that, given the debates I have heard, it would not surprise me if the definition, being, as I do accept, legally unsatisfactory in its detail, might be used in an attempt to support that purpose should such a thing take place. I was simply trying to make the point that there has been discussion of the definition, and citing examples. I did not necessarily mean to imply approval or disapproval, though if Robertson says something is legally not quite good enough I am tempted to think he may be right. I certainly do not subscribe to the view that there is no such thing as anti-semitism and that all those who work against it are motivated solely by a hatred of Corbyn and a desire to subvert criticism of Israel. Apols if my intention did not come across clearly. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The UK Labour Party and Antisemitism. From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 04 Sep 18 - 09:49 AM The story is just propaganda. It is lies. If there was any evidence it would be reported in the normal way. Publishing such lies here or in any decent country would be considered a hate crime. Defending it does none of you any credit. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The UK Labour Party and Antisemitism. From: Steve Shaw Date: 04 Sep 18 - 08:19 AM Give me a list of the ones you regard as highly-respected, please. Then give me a list of the ones who are not highly-respected. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The UK Labour Party and Antisemitism. From: Jim Carroll Date: 04 Sep 18 - 08:18 AM What are you refusing to specify your accusations against the Labour Party Keith - don't you believe in justice You have been the manin accuser (appart from y#two trolls, you have been the only one) What exactly is Labourt guilty of - have you examples of them ever attacking or smearing the Jewish people ore are you going to continue with'hearsay' KarenH has just underlined xactly what the objective of this new definition is - the protection of extreme Zionist action Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: The UK Labour Party and Antisemitism. From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 04 Sep 18 - 08:05 AM Why is this powerful story Rag links to not told by any reputable publication or broadcaster? Because it is a racist lie and there would be a prosecution. The claim is that all those highly respected and longserving Labour people, Jews and non Jews, are lying about their own experience and doing it in the service of Israel. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The UK Labour Party and Antisemitism. From: Raggytash Date: 04 Sep 18 - 07:35 AM The person who gave me the link, also text to me the following: "There is a plurality of Jewish opinion about antisemitism in the Labour Party both here and in Israel itself. In this critical week of decision making for the Labour Party , we should pay careful attention to a freedom of information request submitted by a group of respected Israeli lawyers, human right activists and academics regarding the involvement of the Israeli ministries of Strategic and Foreign Affairs in stoking the antisemitism row as part of a wider campaign to undermine Palestinian solidarity activists. Evidence is mounting that they have a strong case. But so far no British newspaper has been courageous or disinterested enough to investigate." |
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Subject: RE: BS: The UK Labour Party and Antisemitism. From: KarenH Date: 04 Sep 18 - 07:03 AM Whoever said that the problems with the definition have never been discussed in public must be excluding discussion on the Guardian's web site from his idea of 'in public'. The Guardian has referred several times to Geoffrey Robinson QCs analysis of the 11 examples, which are part of the full definition. It has also published discussion suggesting, broadly, that the definition attempts to conflate anti-Jewish animus with anti-Zionism. There are other examples too. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The UK Labour Party and Antisemitism. From: Steve Shaw Date: 04 Sep 18 - 06:30 AM Slurs and smears, as expected. "The rest of the world" has not accepted the definition. It has been adopted by just 31 countries. The definition has no legal force even in countries that have adopted it. There a lot more to be said about the origin, the chequered history and the widespread criticism of a definition that was initiated by pro-Israel advocacy groups for the EU, dumped by the EU and revived with very little thought by tbe IHRA. Even its originator is very unhappy with the way it's been used to stem free speech and criticism of the Israeli regime. More on that later, maybe, if we get that far. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The UK Labour Party and Antisemitism. From: Jim Carroll Date: 04 Sep 18 - 06:21 AM Can we please stop this 'Antisemitic trope' nonsense ? Jewish members of parliament are just as likely to lie as are any other politician - that is what all politicians do If The labour party is riddled with antisemitism it is about time that those making the accusation started to come up with specifics rathar than repeating the unqualified accusations WHAT EXACTLY IS THIS "ANTISEMITISM" THE LABOUR PARTY IS SUPPOSED TO BE GUILTY OF? The accused is entitled to have the charges read out to them - what are they? So far , all we have are lists off accusers If Arab voices are to be censored #from having a say, so a#re the voices of those defending Israel It is noticeable that to some posters the Saudis only become villains when it suits them - the same posters have said it's fine for Britain to sell them fighter planes to bomb the shit out of the Yemeni people Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: The UK Labour Party and Antisemitism. From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 04 Sep 18 - 05:59 AM Long standing Jewish Labour members and MPs lie about experiencing anti-Semitism, at the bidding of foreign government. You will not find that anti-Semitic trope published in any reputable outlet. You will never see it in the Guardian. You will never hear any Labour spokesman suggesting it. Peter Willsman said something much less ant-Semitic and what happened? https://www.theguardian.com/news/2018/jul/31/corbyn-ally-says-jewish-trump-fanatics-make-up-antisemitism-claims Wiki on Middle East Eye, "Despite Hearst's denial of affiliation between the MEE and any governments or organizations, several members of the Muslim Brotherhood are affiliated with the Middle East Eye.[3][4] Additionally, according to The Guardian, the MEE has been noted by Saudi Arabia as a news outlet funded by Qatar (both directly and indirectly);[5] the Qatari government is regarded as a supporter of the Muslim Brotherhood and Hamas. On 22 June 2017, during the 2017–18 Qatar diplomatic crisis, Saudi Arabia, the United Arab Emirates (UAE), Egypt and Bahrain, as part of a list of 13 demands, demanded that Qatar close the Middle East Eye, which was seen as sympathetic to the Muslim Brotherhood. The Middle East Eye denied it has ever received Qatari funds" |
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Subject: RE: BS: The UK Labour Party and Antisemitism. From: Jim Carroll Date: 04 Sep 18 - 05:56 AM "Nice attempt to portray it as false news, but when Al Jazeera gives it headlines I think a rational person would accept the story has wings" So you would deny Arab newspapers the right to credibility - yeah - that sounds fair to me !!!!! Jews thoughoutthe world are making exactly the same claims - including thoo#se in the Labou party asnd journaliata writing for Haaretz Maby you would lke to extend your ban to the left as well Why not just debate the definition itself rather than blocking avenues of discussion? Coming from a staunch supporter of an extreme right wing blogger like Guido Fawkes, your disparaging attitude falls somewhat flat A TIMELY REMINDER Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: The UK Labour Party and Antisemitism. From: Iains Date: 04 Sep 18 - 05:31 AM Nice attempt to portray it as false news, but when Al Jazeera gives it headlines I think a rational person would accept the story has wings. If the rest of the world accepts a definition then a dispassionate view would conclude that if labour cannot accept the same definition then the party has a problem with anti semitism. As wee geogie brown, the former prime minister said:" the issue touched at the soul of the Labour Party and must be dealt with at once. https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2018/09/uk-labour-party-vote-anti-semitism-definitions-180903161203173.html If the issue is not resolved the party will self destruct(not that I would lose any sleep over such an event!) |
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Subject: RE: BS: The UK Labour Party and Antisemitism. From: Steve Shaw Date: 04 Sep 18 - 05:27 AM The obstinate reality is that Jeremy Corbyn, more than almost all prominent UK politicians, has been an ardent opponent of racism, discrimination and social injustice all his life. The so-called Labour antisemitism problem was initiated by a small number of anti-Corbyn MPs on the right of the party, all of them disaffected ex-Blairites. The issue has been pounced on by the Israeli regime and by various pro-Israel lobbies such as Labour Friends Of Israel who dearly don't want to see a pro-Palestinian UK prime minister. Cosily for Netanyahu and co., there are few if any of those in the western world. Any criticism of Bibi from the west is, at most, mild and toothless, and he knows it, and he ruthlessly exploits it. Why, he even brazenly announced major new settlements while Obama was on a state visit to Israel. It seems that they will do anything to stop a supporter of the Palestinians getting into Downing Street. Whenever I go to Prestwich I buy the local Jewish newspapers. It is neither an exaggeration nor antisemitic to say that those papers have a virulent anti-Corbyn obsession, and many of their moans come from inside Israel, quotes, statements and articles from members of the regime or their fellow-travellers. There is almost more than that stuff than there is local news, and even that is often tainted by anti-Labour references. Corbyn's support for BDS gave the regime and its supporters the perfect pretext. Just to remind us that most of those older MPs who now spend their time briefing against Corbyn voted for the Iraq invasion and supported the occupation of Afghanistan and put themselves in bed with Bush. They are the people who helped to foment the growth of Islamic terrorist groups, and that can be traced back historically for decades. That's the kind of people who are whipping up the storm against this man of peace. They are so zealous that they'd rather see the Labour Party destroyed than to stay united and fight from within to settle their differences. In other words, they would rather like the Tories to win the next election and a few more after that. Brilliant, innit. And if anyone wishes to do the kneejerk and accuse writers of opinion pieces of antisemitism, they'd better be ready to say exactly what was said in the piece to fit the bill. Keith's reaction to the link was predictable, lame, pathetic as ever and completely lacking in substance. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The UK Labour Party and Antisemitism. From: Jim Carroll Date: 04 Sep 18 - 04:59 AM "Rag's article is a disgusting and anti-Semitic lie." Can I suggest that, if we are goinjg to have a half decent discussion on this topic rants like this be nipped in the bud from the beginning The article makes debatable points - debate them or leave "If it was not a problem it would not be grabbing headlines worldwide" HERE IS WHY IT IS BEING DISCUSSED WORLDWIDE Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: The UK Labour Party and Antisemitism. From: Iains Date: 04 Sep 18 - 04:52 AM If you make a general search antisemitism and labour and highlight news then you will see both UK and international newspapers are discussing the topic. To pretend it is a made up story, or that it lacks substance, or to explain it as a ruse to undermine Corbyn is simply avoiding reality. The pontifications of a minority on an obscure website cannot alter the fact that Labour has a well documented problem with antisemitism. If it was not a problem it would not be grabbing headlines worldwide from Al Jazeera to the Wall Street Journal. That is a fact! |
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Subject: RE: BS: The UK Labour Party and Antisemitism. From: Jim Carroll Date: 04 Sep 18 - 04:46 AM These accusations can be traced back directly to Corbyn's declaration of support for the Palestinian people - within four weeks of his doing so a group of 'Labour Friends of Israel' travelled to Jerusalem and were hosted by Netanyahu and his Ministers, they returned home and the accusations began Before this event there was not a suggestion of a problem of antisen#mitism within the Labour Party. All the highlighted complainants of antisemitism have been either supporters of the actions of the Israeli regime or right wing opponents of Corbyn's socialism In all this, the views of the Jewish members of the Labour party who oppose the behaviour of the Israeli regime have been vilified or totally ignored The problems of the definition have never been discussed publicly in the press Who has ever expected a higher standard of behaviour from Israel the of any other state? The Israeli Army has recently shot down thousands of unarmed demonstrators - the fatalities nearly double those of the internationally condemned Sharpeville massacre The only difereb#nce between the two has been tha the South Africalm massacre filled our press for months and still acts as an example of extreme state terrorism The recent mass killing have been met with a blanket of press silence As far as 'comparison with the Nazis' - this has been a growing phenomenon within the Jewish cultural groups throughout the world and within Israel itself, former leading statesmen, high ranking military officers, ex heads of security, leading Israeli newspapers like Haaretz, Holocaust survivors and their descendents...... all have made this comparison The Israeli regime is dic#viding The Jewish people into Jews who support its behaviour and 'self-hating Jews who oppose them The Holocaust was a supreme act of ethnic cleansing, yet Israel's own surveys indicate that nearly half of the Israeli population favour the tehnic cleansing of the Arab People How can such a comparison be 'antisemitic'? Any definition of sectarianism or racism that protects political groups or Government policies has to be opposed vigouously The Nazis sent their opponents to the extermination camps alongside six million Jews A holocaust survivor friend in Manchester once spoke five words which have governed my life ever since NEVER AGAIN; NOT TO ANYBODY Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: The UK Labour Party and Antisemitism. From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 04 Sep 18 - 04:23 AM Rag's article is a disgusting and anti-Semitic lie. Ordinary, decent long standing Labour members and MPs complained about the anti-Semitism they have experienced from within the party. It is outrageous to suggest that they are acting as paid agents of a foreign government. It is an familiar old trope to claim that Jews engage in international conspiracies to subvert democracy. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The UK Labour Party and Antisemitism. From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 04 Sep 18 - 04:08 AM This is aimed at smearing the whole Labour party, and some of their membership are complicit. It all came from within the party, mostly from Jewish MPs and members who complained of intimidation. Sure other Jewish groups have expressed an opinion but this is entirely an internal matter for Labour. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The UK Labour Party and Antisemitism. From: David Carter (UK) Date: 04 Sep 18 - 03:54 AM Another Blair type would be just fine, Dick. This is aimed at smearing the whole Labour party, and some of their membership are complicit. The Chief Rabbi in question was an ex Chief Rabbi, not the current one. And some of the things he said in that article, for instance support for the new law in Israel excluding Palestinians from the right of self determination, rather undermine his credibility. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The UK Labour Party and Antisemitism. From: Iains Date: 04 Sep 18 - 03:39 AM As the chief rabbi says:" It is astonishing that the Labour Party presumes that it is more qualified than....in particular, the Jewish community to define antisemitism." |
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Subject: RE: BS: The UK Labour Party and Antisemitism. From: The Sandman Date: 04 Sep 18 - 03:23 AM I hd step relatives that were jewish and were lucky to escape from nazi germany, i do not consider Corbyn anti semitic, the whole thing is a trojan horse aimed at replacin corbyn with another blair type . |
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Subject: RE: BS: The UK Labour Party and Antisemitism. From: robomatic Date: 03 Sep 18 - 09:58 PM I saw this article about a week or so ago and considered bringing it into the discussion, which, bless every one of you, appears to be a discussion so far. I didn't want to resurrect a dormant thread or start a brand new one just over the article, but I think it fits here. If you have problems getting over the NYT paywall lemme know. Especially with recent events to this very day the subject is topical and can draw comment from all sides. A lot of positions which seem to be very pro-Israel, such as the U.S. Administration cutting off U.S. money to the UN relief for Palestinians in Gaza. There is a larger issue of whether or not to consider fourth generation Arabs as refugees which I think is valid. I am under the impression that a lot of UN money has gone to educating young Arab Palestinians that they are victims of the Jews. I'm sure they get that in their homes, but I've long felt the UN has no business financing them uncritically. In an even larger sense I have doubts as to the integrity and intelligence of the current U.S. Administration, so I am wary of agreeing with them and I do NOT support them. In a similar manner there are many Americans who appear to be pro-Israel who support them for anti-Semitic reasons. Specifically they expect the Jews in Israel to pave the way for the Second Coming of Jesus Christ with all the Jews either perishing or converting. Meanwhile, there are extremely anti-Zionist ultra-orthodox Jews living in Israel without participating in her defense. Is opposing them anti-Semitic? Is their opposition to Reform Jews anti-Semitic? I am not trying to muddy the existing issue. Jeremy Corbyn sounds more partisan than fair-minded. I am trying to illustrate the extreme complexity of the issue. The best thing the Arabs could do to end Israel's existence would be to establish peace across all borders, then sit back and wait. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The UK Labour Party and Antisemitism. From: Steve Shaw Date: 03 Sep 18 - 06:47 PM The first five points and the last one are unarguable. There are serious problems with the other five points, all of which are designed to stall criticism of the actions of the Israeli regime. And we don't need "examples." The more you broaden out and tweak definitions, especially if you inhabit exclusively just one side of the argument, the more useless they become. As far as I'm concerned, it is not legitimate to criticise "Israel" or "the Jewish people" as a collective, ever. It is not legitimate to call for the destruction of Israel. It is always legitimate to be able to criticise the policies enacted by the Israeli regime. It is not antisemitic to say that the state discriminates against non-Jews in Israel, specifically the large Arab minority, because the discrimination is well-documented and self-evident. It can't be antisemitic to rail against Israel calling itself a Jewish state when almost a quarter of its population is non-Jewish. It can't be antisemitic to state unvarnished facts that are stated without tendentious intent. It can't be antisemitic to criticise the usurping of land for settlements for the exclusive use of Jewish citizens. It can't be antisemitic to criticise the building of a wall that robs Palestinians of land and divides their families. It would be outrageously antisemitic to say that these things are done because they're the typical behaviour of Jews. All this is very obvious and very simple. The expansion of an already-flawed definition to protect the Israeli regime's actions against criticism brings the perpetrators of the definition into disrepute and may actually put Jewish people in harm's way. Now that IS antisemitic. By the way, the Nazis acted like Nazis. It is not beyond the realms of possibility for other regimes to act like Nazis. In that case it would be justifiable to accuse them of acting like Nazis. In my opinion it is still never wise to do that. You will never further the argument by so doing. And successive Israeli regimes, despite all their atrocities, have not acted like Nazis. Call it like it is, fearlessly, but that approach simply doesn't wash. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The UK Labour Party and Antisemitism. From: bobad Date: 03 Sep 18 - 05:39 PM It is critical of Israel and, if we start to follow the IHRA to the letter, becomes antisemitic. Manifestations might include the targeting of the state of Israel, conceived as a Jewish collectivity. However, criticism of Israel similar to that leveled against any other country cannot be regarded as antisemitic. IHRA Working definition of anti-Semitism. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The UK Labour Party and Antisemitism. From: Dave the Gnome Date: 03 Sep 18 - 04:55 PM The sad thing is, Raggy, that the article itself falls under the defin!ition. It is critical of Israel and, if we start to follow the IHRA to the letter, becomes antisemitic. The alt truth of Trump, BoJo and other such maverick politicians seems to be spreading:-( 1984 May be a bit late but newspeak has definitely landed. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The UK Labour Party and Antisemitism. From: Raggytash Date: 03 Sep 18 - 04:29 PM Tunesmith, a very interesting article can be found at tinyurl.com/y7lo4zp8 |
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Subject: BS: The UK Labour Party and Antisemitism. From: Tunesmith Date: 03 Sep 18 - 04:25 PM The UK Labour Party are being criticised to not accepting the “International Holocaust Remembrance Alliance’s definition of antisemitism” in its entirety. I’ve listed the complete definition at the bottom. One of the problems I see with this is that we could subsequentily be inundated with similar “anti” this and that documents from all and sundry. For example, AntiMexicanism” ( Trump would fall foul of such a definition, I’m sure). AntiIslamism. Well, in such a definition I’m sure that all negative references to the faith and its founder would be seen as dangerously AntiIslamist. AntiPalastinist would include all sorts of definition that,surely, Israel, and Jewish people generally, would never sign up to. I’ll just want to comment on one “definition” from the complete list below. “Accusing Jewish citizens of being more loyal to Israel, or to the alleged priorities of Jews worldwide, than to the interests of their own nations”. This is a very dodgy one. Surely, there must be some UK/USA Jewish citizens out there who, when push comes to shove, would put Israel before, say, the USA or the UK. Just as there were British citizens of Irish decent who would have put certain Irish causes before the UK’s position. And, of course, there will UK/USA etc Muslims who would put Muslim causes ahead of their adopted country’s position. There are lots of examples of citizens of, say, the USA who would put their religious beliefs ahead of their country’s needs. Take Quakers, for example, when they say that they would not fight for their country, surely they are saying that in their country’s hour of need they would not answer the call because of religious reasons. Now, follows the complete “International Holocaust Remembrance Alliance’s definition of antisemitism” Calling for, aiding, or justifying the killing or harming of Jews in the name of a radical ideology or an extremist view of religion. Making mendacious, dehumanising, demonising, or stereotypical allegations about Jews as such or the power of Jews as collective — such as, especially but not exclusively, the myth about a world Jewish conspiracy or of Jews controlling the media, economy, government or other societal institutions. Accusing Jews as a people of being responsible for real or imagined wrongdoing committed by a single Jewish person or group, or even for acts committed by non-Jews. Denying the fact, scope, mechanisms (e.g. gas chambers) or intentionality of the genocide of the Jewish people at the hands of National Socialist Germany and its supporters and accomplices during World War II (the Holocaust). Accusing the Jews as a people, or Israel as a state, of inventing or exaggerating the Holocaust. Accusing Jewish citizens of being more loyal to Israel, or to the alleged priorities of Jews worldwide, than to the interests of their own nations. Denying the Jewish people their right to self-determination, e.g., by claiming that the existence of a State of Israel is a racist endeavor. Applying double standards by requiring of it a behavior not expected or demanded of any other democratic nation. Using the symbols and images associated with classic antisemitism (e.g., claims of Jews killing Jesus or blood libel) to characterise Israel or Israelis. Drawing comparisons of contemporary Israeli policy to that of the Nazis. Holding Jews collectively responsible for actions of the state of Israel. |