BS: The UK Labour Party and Antisemitism.

Subject: RE: BS: The UK Labour Party and Antisemitism.
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 Sep 18 - 04:27 AM

You went on to say that Labour's problem was just the same as any other organisation, denying that it was a significant problem specific to the Labour Left which is what this debate is about.

Subject: RE: BS: The UK Labour Party and Antisemitism.
From: KarenH
Date: 06 Sep 18 - 04:27 AM

Letter in yesterday's press, interesting comment

"One of the IHRA examples clarifying its definition of antisemitism is this: “Denying the Jewish people their right to self-determination, eg by claiming that the existence of a State of Israel is a racist endeavour.” But the state of Israel’s conception of what it is to be Jewish rests not on the religious belief that is Judaism but on Jewishness as ethnicity, which is to say race. It therefore follows that Israel’s existence as a state is indeed a racist endeavour, since membership and/or “level of membership” of that state rests on so-called race. Labour’s acceptance of the contrary view is a disastrous capitulation to racism."

Is this a fair view of the State of Israel?

Subject: RE: BS: The UK Labour Party and Antisemitism.
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 Sep 18 - 04:28 AM

The are many Arab States and Islamic States.
Are they all racist endeavours?

Subject: RE: BS: The UK Labour Party and Antisemitism.
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 Sep 18 - 04:31 AM

Corbyn, " “Anyone who denies this has surfaced in our party is clearly wrong and contributing to the problem.”

Subject: RE: BS: The UK Labour Party and Antisemitism.
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 06 Sep 18 - 04:37 AM

Subject: RE: BS: The UK Labour Party and Antisemitism.
From: Dave the Gnome - PM
Date: 06 Sep 18 - 04:07 AM

No one, as far as I know, has ever denied that there is antisemitism in the Labour party...

Subject: RE: BS: The UK Labour Party and Antisemitism.
From: Iains
Date: 06 Sep 18 - 04:38 AM

http://www.indelicates.com/trope/

Subject: RE: BS: The UK Labour Party and Antisemitism.
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 06 Sep 18 - 04:41 AM

Are you listening, Robo? Keith? :-)

Subject: RE: BS: The UK Labour Party and Antisemitism.
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Sep 18 - 04:55 AM

And one more the pro Israel lobby ignore the facts - surprise, surprise

Not so long agao Iains was advocating for the right of free peec of arch rcist Tommy Robinson and gloatingly publicising his supporters petition
I wonder if his latest concern for victims of racism is an indication of a 'Road to Damascus' conversion or double-standards - or maybe just good ol' political oppertunism
Likewise Keith whoose concerns over racism has never exactly extended to the Muslim "implanted" people
This becomes vomit-making
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: The UK Labour Party and Antisemitism.
From: Iains
Date: 06 Sep 18 - 05:09 AM

ignore

Subject: RE: BS: The UK Labour Party and Antisemitism.
From: KarenH
Date: 06 Sep 18 - 05:30 AM

Ians put up a link to a blog. Some more quick googling, eh? But an interesting link. However, I'm not qualified to discuss self-styled Deleuzian analyses like this one.

I liked the bit on Ian's site where they have a go at Brexiters, making frequent use of f*** words. "You stupid f****** Bexit f****** c***".

Thanks for the link Ians.

Subject: RE: BS: The UK Labour Party and Antisemitism.
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Sep 18 - 05:30 AM

"ignore"
Of course you will
Racists using racism as a political opportunity can do nothing else
You have refused to even respond to the massive rise in all forms of racism in Britain
You have refused to acknowledge that the rise in antisemitism is part of a world-wide phenomenon
Now you are refusing to acknowledge your own support for racists
What else can you do?
You even refuse to identify the type of antisemitism you are accusing the Labour Party of
This is the most bizarre stand-off I have ever come across since 'Dog-Day Afternoon'

Until both of you you say exactly you are accusing The Labour Party of this will remain the farce you have made it
Racism in all its forms especially antisemitism, if a phenomenon of the right - yo are both of the extreme right - Iians is of the Tommy Robinson kind
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: The UK Labour Party and Antisemitism.
From: KarenH
Date: 06 Sep 18 - 05:50 AM

Jim

I am confused since Ians just referred us to a Deleuzian (ie Marxist) piece on the word 'trope'. This doesn't chime with support for the appalling Tommy Robinson.

But maybe he didn't realise it was Marxist, maybe he only read the headline, not the article.

And the link doesn't prove that he has found out what 'trope' means or the significance of the etymology of the word.

Subject: RE: BS: The UK Labour Party and Antisemitism.
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Sep 18 - 05:58 AM

"This doesn't chime with support for the appalling Tommy Robinson. "
Iaians is a tommy Robinson supporter
He circulaed the petition sppoerting him on this forum several months ago
Keith is historically an Islamophobe who believes their religion causes them to hav underage sex
He has said so on this forum
If these people refuse to debate rationally as they are, we need to remember who they are
im Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: The UK Labour Party and Antisemitism.
From: KarenH
Date: 06 Sep 18 - 06:37 AM

Jim

I was in no sense suggesting you were wrong about his being a Tommy Robinsons supporter, my confusion arose from the oddness of such a one citing Marxist analyses by a blog that expresses strong dislike of Brexit supporters. But I believe it was because he had not read the blog he put up the link to and so did not realise it where it was coming from.

I stand by my belief on Ians' comments on the word 'trope'.

Subject: RE: BS: The UK Labour Party and Antisemitism.
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Sep 18 - 06:49 AM

Interesting piece by Yasmin Alibhai-Brown from April 24 - the whole thing is worth reading (give it a google) but here's a chunk of it that got me musing:

Antisemitism on the left, yes — but Tories have their own problems with both Jews and Muslims

YouGov polls done in 2015 and again in 2017 found that Tory voters are more likely to hold negative views about Jews than Labour voters. For example, in 2015, 31% Conservatives thought Jews chase money more than other Britons. In 2017, the figure went down to 22%. For Labour the figures were 22% and 14%. A 2017 study looking at British attitudes towards Jews by the Institute for Jewish Policy Research found that 30% of the general population hold at least one ‘anti-Semitic attitude’. Figures on the left are similar to or below the population mean, while those on the right are significantly more likely to hold at least one anti-Semitic attitude. Such facts do not stop the oft repeated accusations against the left.

It strikes me that we hear an awful lot from Labour Friends of Israel and the Board of Deputies, etc., but very little from the Tories about "Labour's antisemitism problem." I strongly suspect that the Tories think that they have a sleeping dog that they'd rather not see stirred too much, especially considering the threat of its compounding their total brexit balls-up. Whilst I regard the Skripal thing as off-topic in this thread, there is, to my way of thinking, a tenuous link to the other political shenanigans of the day. Labour is paralysed over brexit, to their huge discredit in my view, and has let this bogus antisemitism issue engulf them instead of coming out and exposing their attackers for the utter frauds that they are. So Labour doesn't look good. And the Tories definitely don't look good. So what do you do when things are bad at home? Well you could always start a war, as Maggie did for example, or, failing that, show your people how rotten Johnny Foreigner is. Now I don't know whether these two blokes painted stuff on that doorknob or not. I've seen the CCTV snapshots and read about their trail from Gatwick to Bow to Salisbury to Bow to Salisbury to Gatwick. Two scruffy blokes strolling around invariably looking relaxed and as uncloak-and-dagger as you could wish for. The assistant commissioner has claimed that he has enough evidence to charge them with conspiracy to murder, etc. Well I don't think he has. I think he has enough evidence, if only he could lay his hands on them, merely to ask them some awkward questions. Instead, we have the spectacle of a belly-up Theresa May expressing unjustifiable certainties (which would preclude a fair trial in any case - that particular bridge is well and truly burned) and even blaming Putin. Thing is, they can't lay their hands on these blokes. That's one certainty, probably the only one. In a way, that puts May in the rather luxurious position of being able to say what the hell she likes about those damn Ruskies, in full knowledge that she can never be brought to account by due process throwing up a whole bunch of really awkward doubts about these two chaps. Good, eh?

Incidentally, I obtained a copy of yesterday's Daily Mail (I did NOT pay for it!). While the rest of media were in hysterics over Corbyn's "caveat," the Mail had nothing to say about it at all until page 16. I wonder how many Mail readers ever get that far... Of course, the Mail couldn't NOT report it, as that would have been distinctly odd, but it was well and truly relegated. Then I remembered that this paper once stood up for the man who murdered six million Jews...

Subject: RE: BS: The UK Labour Party and Antisemitism.
From: Iains
Date: 06 Sep 18 - 06:58 AM

If these people refuse to debate rationally as they are, we need to remember who they are

we are we are not
we will be
we won't be
Is there an interpreter in the room anywhere? Not for the first time I have no idea what he is on about. It is verging on incoherance!

Subject: RE: BS: The UK Labour Party and Antisemitism.
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Sep 18 - 07:14 AM

If there really is an interpreter in the room, perhaps he or she could translate that post of yours for us. As it stands, it doesn't make any sense at all. Ironic, really.

Subject: RE: BS: The UK Labour Party and Antisemitism.
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Sep 18 - 07:28 AM

"I stand by my belief on Ians' comments on the word 'trope'."
I can't disagree with that - I nevr use the word and, as far as I can see, the only people who have used it here are those who I find 'on the other side' of my arguments - Keith inr#troduced it to the discussion and has twice directed 'An#ti semitic trope' at those he disagreed#s with.
It is as meaningless a term as 'Antisemitism' is becoming due to its constant misuse.

When I was born the Holocaust hadn't even begun - I was alive at the time it took place and when the perpetrators were tried
My family dought fascism before and after the war - some of them suffered punishment and imprisonment for doing so.
My uncle, a regular soldier and decorated war hero was punished by the army for refusing to go and train fascist troops in Greece during the Greek Civil War.
The same regular soldier was stationed in Palestine when the British left Palestine
Israel has been a par of my consciousness throughout my sentient life - as an unqualified supporter, and later, as its politics swung further and further towards the right, a qualified one.
Now I'm getting on in years, hardly a day passes when I don't think with pride and respect of the part played by members of my family in the fight against racism and sectarianism

I have been called an anti-semite by five people on this forum, by Bearded Bruce, Bobad, Keith, Iains and Robomatic - all of the (sometimes extreme) right
The Party in which I place a great deal of hope for the future of British Politics, The (socialist inclined) Labour Party has been accused of the same thing
I am demanding that such accusations be qualified - If I, Corbyn, Dave, Steve are antisemites, what exactly are we guilty of ?
If no reply is forthcoming, these discussions have become no more than soapboxes for right wing politics   
This disucussions have now become re-runs of kafka's 'The Trial', where the prosecution refuses to tell the accused what he is being accused of.

We really need to move away from blogs and opinions and begin to discuss what is actually happening in the world today - the frightening rise in real antisemitism is very much a part of that, but only a part.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: The UK Labour Party and Antisemitism.
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 06 Sep 18 - 07:34 AM

We also need to ignore the spoilers who come here for no other reason than to cause trouble. Remember how the atmosphere improved when those fuckwits absented themselves (or were forcibly restrained?)? Everyone knows who they are, how many times does it need to be said - IGNORE THEM!

Subject: RE: BS: The UK Labour Party and Antisemitism.
From: bobad
Date: 06 Sep 18 - 08:00 AM

Jewishness as ethnicity, which is to say race

Er........no, two different things, and besides, there is no such thing as race, unless you're a racist.

Subject: RE: BS: The UK Labour Party and Antisemitism.
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Sep 18 - 09:05 AM

"there is no such thing as race, unless you're a racist"
That is true, but Antisemitism Islamophobia and racism as forms of prejudice are inseparable
In my opinion one of the great missed opportunities of history came about because of the bad treatment of the Jews as being 'different' somehow from bad treatment of other cultures, races and religions - and humanity in general.
The Holocaust was a perfect example of extreme prejudice, but that hatred extended to Gypsies, Trades Unionists, Communists
The defeat of Nazism was a perfect opportunity to outlaw all forms of prejudice
We have been debating a definition of Antisemitism and ignoring the fact that it is only a part of hatred and prejudice
Why?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: The UK Labour Party and Antisemitism.
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 Sep 18 - 09:20 AM

Dave,
No one, as far as I know, has ever denied that there is antisemitism in the Labour party...

Yes, but you go on to say that it can be found in any large organisation, denying that there is a serious and specific problem in the Labour Party that has arisen since Corbyn became leader and the Far Left became dominant.

Subject: RE: BS: The UK Labour Party and Antisemitism.
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 Sep 18 - 09:25 AM

Liar Jim,
Keith is historically an Islamophobe who believes their religion causes them to hav underage sex

Filthy lies Jim.
I have never, ever even criticised any religion, unlike you.

No religion "causes them to hav underage sex" and I would never suggest such a ludicrous thing.

Filthy lies Jim

Subject: RE: BS: The UK Labour Party and Antisemitism.
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Sep 18 - 09:29 AM

Sorry Keith - your exact words have been posted onto this thread
I will not grace your denial with an argument - you said what you said

And still you refuse to specify your charges of antisemitism, as do your fellow accusers
It seems that a denial of simple justice is also a part of your portfolio
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: The UK Labour Party and Antisemitism.
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 Sep 18 - 09:33 AM

you said what you said

Yes. Not the filthy lies you just claimed about me, liar.

Subject: RE: BS: The UK Labour Party and Antisemitism.
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 Sep 18 - 09:37 AM

And still you refuse to specify your charges of antisemitism, as do your fellow accusers

They are not my charges Jim.
They are charges of intimidation and abuse, and of racist comments, and they come from Jews and non-Jews within the party, mostly MPs.

Subject: RE: BS: The UK Labour Party and Antisemitism.
From: bobad
Date: 06 Sep 18 - 09:50 AM

Shocking VIDEO reveals just how "racist" Israel is. Viewer discretion advised.

Subject: RE: BS: The UK Labour Party and Antisemitism.
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Sep 18 - 10:08 AM

ANOTHER
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: The UK Labour Party and Antisemitism.
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Sep 18 - 10:10 AM

AND ANOTHER
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: The UK Labour Party and Antisemitism.
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Sep 18 - 10:24 AM

APARTHEID ISRAEL - IT'S OFFICIAL !!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: The UK Labour Party and Antisemitism.
From: Iains
Date: 06 Sep 18 - 10:50 AM

The usual suspects have run out of counter arguments again and resorting to insults Here are a few snippets of news to consider.

It never rains but it pours:

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/7191471/jeremy-corbyns-anti-semitism-crisis-deepens-as-parliamentary-sleaze-chiefs-launch-investig

NEWS

    Jeremy Corbyn, Labour and the IHRA definition of antisemitism
    The Guardian
    The Labour party's adoption of the full IHRA definition of antisemitism (Report, 5 September) should not be the end but the start of renewed efforts to ...
    Labour votes for full antisemitism terms in standing orders - The Guardian
    The Guardian view on Jeremy Corbyn's Labour: it must be an anti-racist party - The Guardian
    Anti-Semitism in Britain has DOUBLED following Labour racism scandal – and 40% of Jews say ... - The Sun
    Full Coverage
    Corbyn's Labour, British Jews and anti-Semitism: Will Peace Now Break Out?
    Haaretz
    Jeremy Corbyn, UK Labour leader, arrives at a meeting of his party's National Executive Committee to discuss its definition of anti-Semitism. London ...
    Jeremy Corbyn tried to permit calling Israel inherently racist - The Jerusalem Post
    Chakrabarti denies anti-Semitism code 'sullied' by extra statement - BBC News
    Labour anti-Semitism row: Israel criticism defended - BBC News
    Full Coverage
    'Israel Is a Racist Endeavour': Signs Appear Across London After Labour Accepts Full anti ...
    Haaretz
    Corbyn's Labour, British Jews and anti-Semitism: Will Peace Now Break Out? ... The posters appeared a day after the U.K. Labour Party adopted the ...
    London bus stops vandalized with anti-Israel posters - The Times of Israel
    Full Coverage
    Jeremy Corbyn hit with BARRAGE of calls to APOLOGISE from Tory MPs during PMQs
    Express.co.uk
    Mrs May later said the Labour leader “should be ashamed of himself”. The Prime Minister said: “He is trying to change his party so that anti-Semites ...
    Jeremy Corbyn's anti-Semitism crisis deepens as Parliamentary sleaze chiefs launch investigation ...
    The Sun
    JEREMY Corbyn's anti-Semitism crisis deepened last night after ... Sources confirmed the Labour leader was "cooperating" with the inquiry - just hours ...
    Talk to us about anti-Semitism, Labour urges Jews as MPs back definition update
    ITV News
    Senior Labour backbencher Dame Margaret Hodge, who clashed with Mr Corbyn over anti-Semitism, said the leader had “sullied” the adoption of the ...
    Labour MPs back anti-Semitism rules and call for talks - Metro Newspaper UK

Subject: RE: BS: The UK Labour Party and Antisemitism.
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Sep 18 - 11:00 AM

The usual suspects have run out of counter arguments again and resorting to insults
"The usual suspects " - great way accuse someone of insulting

What exactly i this antisemitism you are accusing the Labour party of
Can you describe it?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: The UK Labour Party and Antisemitism.
From: bobad
Date: 06 Sep 18 - 11:07 AM

What exactly i this antisemitism you are accusing the Labour party of

It is Labour Party members themselves who are making the accusations as you well know..........but do keep on denying. As Corbyn himself has said: “Anyone who denies this has surfaced in our party is clearly wrong and contributing to the problem.”

Subject: RE: BS: The UK Labour Party and Antisemitism.
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Sep 18 - 11:10 AM

"It is Labour Party members themselves who are making the accusations as you well know."
No - it is supporters of Israel in the Labour Party who are making the accusations
The vast majority of Labour Party members either reject them or ignore it
This still doesn't get any nearer to understanding what exactly the Labour Party is being accused of - the accusations are meaningless until we do

No more to say in Israeli racism I assume?
Thought not
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: The UK Labour Party and Antisemitism.
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Sep 18 - 11:14 AM

You have my argument as to why there is a worldwide rise in antisemitism in which the Labour party doesn't register on the Richter scale of antisemitism
The fact that you refuse to respond is proof posetive that you with to continue to use the Jewish People as a political bludeon
Isn't that a bit antisemitic?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: The UK Labour Party and Antisemitism.
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Sep 18 - 11:41 AM

"It is Labour Party members themselves who are making the accusations as you well know..........but do keep on denying."

There are over 600,000 Labour Party members. The vast majority, if not nearly all, of the accusations from within the party are coming from a group of disaffected ex-Blairite/Brownite MPs who dearly want to see Corbyn gone. Nobody is denying but one or two of us are trying to ensure that loose statements don't degrade the argument. By the way, accusations are also coming from the Board Of Deputies (not Labour Party members last time I checked), elements of the Jewish press in both Israel and the UK as well as from a goodly smattering of our mainstream papers and, not least, the Israeli regime itself, also last time I checked, not members of the British Labour Party. Hope this helps.

Subject: RE: BS: The UK Labour Party and Antisemitism.
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Sep 18 - 11:43 AM

"Hope this helps."
Depends on who you want to help Steve - certainly not those who wish to paint Labour as a viper's nest of Jew Haters
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: The UK Labour Party and Antisemitism.
From: Iains
Date: 06 Sep 18 - 11:43 AM

Is it not strange that worldwide there is recognition that labour under corbyn has a problem with antisemitism and a few diehards on a very obscure website insist on denying it? You may manage to convince yourselves with your delusion but rest assured the rest of us have absolute belief in the veracity of the accusation. When even Corbyn accepts there is a problem then for you to deny it is a total aberration. Tell me! Do you also believe the sun sets in the morming and rises at night? or perhaps you are flat earthers. Obviously logic is missing in your makeup.

Subject: RE: BS: The UK Labour Party and Antisemitism.
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Sep 18 - 11:54 AM

"The usual suspects have run out of counter arguments again and resorting to insults"

Then, just a little while later,

"Tell me! Do you also believe the sun sets in the morming and rises at night? or perhaps you are flat earthers. Obviously logic is missing in your makeup..."

You don't do irony, do you? And I see you're at it with your "whole world" nonsense again, and that follows on from your utterly pointless and meaningless news-litany post. You're having a bad day. Keep your head down unless you have something of substance to say is my advice.

Subject: RE: BS: The UK Labour Party and Antisemitism.
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 06 Sep 18 - 11:55 AM

Well if its not coming from inside the Labour Party Jim, it would take a bloody clever enemy to think up this bollocks.

I think its got all the hallmarks of Labour twatting about instead of getting on with the job - something we've seen subtle variations of since the Gaitskell years.

I mean there's very little you can say to dissidents. They always have a valid point. And its always more important than party unity.

In Gaitskell's time it was the bomb. In Kinnock's time, it was the issue of union power.

And now its the cause of the Palestinians.

There's always something that is more important than taking the power off the tories.

Out of interest, Jim.....which side were you on in the other era's. Are you always on the side of the dissidents?

Subject: RE: BS: The UK Labour Party and Antisemitism.
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Sep 18 - 12:25 PM

I agree that Labour is twatting about and not putting the heat on the Tories. The Palestinians hardly get a mention. It's more about a determined effort to unseat Corbyn. The Blairites want their party back and they'll stop at nothing to get it, even if it means putting the Tories in. The Friends of Israel, the Board of Deputies and the Israeli regime want to keep it all nice and cosy with complicit Western leaders who'll raise nobbut a token whimper at Gaza sieges, mass slaughters, racial discrimination and wholesale land theft. They don't want a dissident voice in the ranks speaking up for Palestinians. But at home it's all about just getting Jezza out. If he flew over to Israel with a bunch of flowers tomorrow to lick Bibi's boots they'd still all find something. I think I'm getting a proxy persecution complex.

Subject: RE: BS: The UK Labour Party and Antisemitism.
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Sep 18 - 12:45 PM

"which side were you on in the other era's"
I'm a humanitarian socialist Al - I don't have "sides"
As far as I am concerned everybody has an equal right to a voice - the emphasis being "equal"

If you don't believe it has been instigated by Israel - explain the timeline
You tell me why Labour never has#d a pr#oblem with antisemitism until nearly exactly one month after a meeting between a group of Friends of Labour 'Friends of Israel' and members of Netanyahu's cabinet to discuss Corbyn's declared support for the Palestinian people ?
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: The UK Labour Party and Antisemitism.
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Sep 18 - 12:54 PM

Should read 'Labour Friends of Israel' - of course
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: The UK Labour Party and Antisemitism.
From: Iains
Date: 06 Sep 18 - 01:07 PM

https://hansard.parliament.uk/Commons/2018-04-17/debates/9D70B2B4-39D7-4241-ACF8-13F7DFD8AEB2/Anti-Semitism#contribution-0838975

Ruth Smeeth a speech about antisemitism in the Labour party in the House of Commons.

The opening sentence:
Over the past two years, however, I have experienced something genuinely painful: attacks on my identity from within my own Labour family. I have been the target of a campaign of abuse, attempted bullying and intimidation from people who would dare to tell me that people like me have no place in the party of which I have been a member for over 20 years, and which I am proud to represent on these Benches.


Yet there are still contributors from the left here in denial.

I recommend the speech is read in full, including the vile comments received by her.

Subject: RE: BS: The UK Labour Party and Antisemitism.
From: robomatic
Date: 06 Sep 18 - 01:29 PM

Damn, Jim Carroll, DTG, Iaians, Steve Shaw, KarenH, you've been goin' all night. I'm still getting around my morning espresso! Love what you've done with the thread, you've gone intense but not too vituperative. In fact, I was the one who went vituperative. Sorry about that JC.

JC: I'm actually pretty ignorant of your Labour/ Conservative issues so I've held off saying anything and I think I've said as much. I'm only speaking to comments positions that Corbyn has taken regarding mideast issues. I feel safe with that but as regards National Front and other UK issues I know better than to pretend I've got background which I don't. Wish you felt the same regarding Israel.

As for the UK being welcoming of all races and creeds. That is a recent phenomenon. (Recent for the UK means last 200 years. Recent for Americans means after last lunch). Jews enjoyed exile from King John until Oliver Cromwell. Catholics were on again, off again, way way off, slightly on, half on, we'll marry them but they must convert on. Jamaicans were on, then on? (and so on).

As for the focus of rising antisemitism, it is not all from the right. I writ elsewhere that AS is a complicated thing. But one simple to understand item is, unfortunately a lot of endemic AS by Muslims, some from the Qu'ran, some from the Hadith (sayings not in the Qu'ran but attributed to the Prophet and those around him), and some that gets blended with anti-Israel sentiments. Now that there are more Muslims penetrating the West, it is showing up everywhere. And not that more Muslims are showing up in American politics, it is showing up there as well. Since Democrats are trying harder than Reps for new voters, it is seaping in America from the left. UK mileage may vary. Fact of life. Better to face up to it now. American Jews are still overwhelmingly Democratic and on many fronts are engaging with American Muslims positively. There is actually more to American life than Israel, and most Muslim problems are from other Muslims.

Oh, one more time. . . trope!

Subject: RE: BS: The UK Labour Party and Antisemitism.
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Sep 18 - 01:30 PM

Now why would you believe Ruth Smeeth, who put on a deliberate act of amateur dramatics, complete with fake tears, at the launch of the Chakrabarti report in order to discredit Marc Wadsworth, a man who has fought racism and antisemitism all his life, who criticised her collusion with the press but who didn't know she was a Jew? You're it again. All received wisdom, confirmation bias and no actual research. Why don't you look into it?

Subject: RE: BS: The UK Labour Party and Antisemitism.
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Sep 18 - 01:32 PM

RUTH SMEETH
RUTH SMEETH 2
RUTH SMEETH 3
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: The UK Labour Party and Antisemitism.
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Sep 18 - 01:57 PM

MORE
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: The UK Labour Party and Antisemitism.
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Sep 18 - 01:59 PM

There ya go, Iains - a real honest broker. Not. No denial our end. No understanding your end.

Subject: RE: BS: The UK Labour Party and Antisemitism.
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 06 Sep 18 - 02:14 PM

These people have had frigging years to get worked up about the Palestinians plight. Everyone knows the Jews and the Arabs will be merrily kicking each other up the arse down the road into eternity.

To use these unfortunate people as an excuse for not taking the fight to the tories is intellectually dishonest.

Anyway, like I say = lets hope I am completely wrong. i've heard it said - Corbyn is cynically courting the Islamic vote,

I really don't know what games the politicians are playing. They're all too clever for their own damn good.