BS: The UK Labour Party and Antisemitism.

Subject: RE: BS: The UK Labour Party and Antisemitism.
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Sep 18 - 03:00 PM

"Criticism of Israeli politics is perfectly allowable under the definition."
That was the pronlem - it became a minefield to criticise Zionism
The Israel justice minister has deeclares all criticism of Israel antisemitisic there's one top Israeli at odds with that statement

The next logical step for the humanists in the Labour Party is to push for party support doer BDS
Whatever the career politicians think of this I have little doubt it will find support among the rank-and-file
THEY WILL CERTAINLY FIND SUPPORT ELSEWHERE
Jim Caaarroll

Subject: RE: BS: The UK Labour Party and Antisemitism.
From: Iains
Date: 04 Sep 18 - 04:08 PM

Well Jim, the Israeli justice minister will garner very little support for his ridiculous assertion. Criticism of Israeli politics is a very different proposition to criticising Jews and the IHRA working definition on Antisemitism clearly differentiates between the two concepts.
It is also worth noting that On 1 June 2017, the European Parliament adopted its first ever resolution on combating Antisemitism, including the IHRA working definition on Antisemitism.
This resolution would clearly put Labour in dispute with the EU had it not adopted the definition today.
I would have thought the Labour leadership would have foreseen this problem as soon as the the European Parliament adopted its first ever resolution on combating Antisemitism, including the IHRA working definition. That was back in June 2017. So instead of acting like a credible opposition party for the last year, they have been busy ripping themselves apart over an issue that the eu WOULD HAVE RAMMED DOWN THEIR COLLECTIVE THROAT ANYWAY. This does make a person wonder just what planet the Labour leadership inhabit. I am sure my conclusions must be shared by many. We saw what happened in Catalonia when the party tried to thwart the EU, would Labour kid themselves they would fare any better?

As a total aside.
(RT 2 hours ago reports they are trying a second time for independance and their is talk of a referendum for more autonomy)

Subject: RE: BS: The UK Labour Party and Antisemitism.
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Sep 18 - 05:02 PM

"This resolution would clearly put Labour in dispute with the EU had it not adopted the definition today"

Not so. The EU has urged member states to adopt the resolution but has no power to insist on it. It pays to check your facts.

Subject: RE: BS: The UK Labour Party and Antisemitism.
From: Iains
Date: 04 Sep 18 - 06:01 PM

"On 1 June 2017 the European Parliament voted to adopt a resolution calling on member states and their institutions to adopt and apply the International Holocaust Remembrance Alliance working definition of antisemitism.

24 of the IHRA's 31 Member Countries are members of the European Union. Austria, Romania and the United Kingdom have already formally adopted the working definition.

The European Parliament resolution passed on Thursday(01/06/17) calls on member states to protect their Jewish citizens and Jewish institutions from hate crime and hate speech, to support law enforcement efforts to identify and prosecute antisemitic attacks, to appoint national coordinators on combating antisemitism, systematically and publicly condemn antisemitic statements, to promote education about the Holocaust in schools, and to review schoolbooks regarding content related to Jewish history and contemporary Jewish life."

You may wish to split hairs and argue over the semantics of the resolution but 24 EU countries are members of IHRA. How long do you think they would have tolerated Labour dissenting. As a puny ineffective opposition party their dissent could perhaps be ignored, BUT any sniff of becoming the ruling party would focus attention on this dissent and it would become a major international issue.Especially as the ruling party has already signed up to the resolution. I have no need to check the facts, Realpolitik would dictate the outcome, as you very well know.

Subject: RE: BS: The UK Labour Party and Antisemitism.
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Sep 18 - 06:20 PM

It is not "splitting hairs" to remind you that 24 EU countries is not all 28 EU countries, that the EU has no power to insist that any country adopts the definition and that the definition is not in any way, shape or form legally binding on any nation. All these things are checkable. Therefore your point that failing to adopt the definition would put Labour into dispute with the EU falls (academic though the point has now become). There can be be no "major international issue" over not adopting the definition. I haven't noted any particular "major international issues" apropos of the 164 countries, the vast majority, that haven't adopted the definition. It's a very simple matter to check your facts before posting. During your absence from the forum this kind of sloppy playing fast and loose with facts that you have resorted to more than once today didn't take place and there was harmony around here.

Subject: RE: BS: The UK Labour Party and Antisemitism.
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Sep 18 - 09:20 PM

Earlier tonight I sat (partially) through the television programme 'We Are British Jews' tonight - _ I say !partially - I can't remember being more angry at a total distorion of fact outright lies, bullying and blustering and right wing propaganda
A group of 'ordinary' Jewish people described how poor little nuclear facilitated Israel was fighting for her existence from attacks by Arab terrorists who wished to turn her from a peace loving refuge for Jewish People to an Arab state
No mention of massacres, destruction of homes and schools indiscriminate bombings, use of chemical and anti-personnel weapons, land grabbing, mass evictions......... certainly no reference of the fact that Israel facilitated the greatest single massacre of unarmed civilians in the latter half of the 20th century - not a mention of the fact that Israel has just murdered nearly twice the number of demonstrators as did the Apartheid regime in South Africa - certainly no comarison of casualty figures
Israel was the victim - the Arabs were the perpetrators
No siege was taking place in Gaza - the Israelis were just preventing weapons being brought into the country that would be used to murder Jews.
The rather timid young woman who spoke up on behalf of Palestinian suffering was bullied into silence
It was like listening to a room of screaming Keiths
Behind it all was rhge gentler voice of the commentator, Stephen Mangan (who, up t now, I have admired, with lie after lie, distortion after distortion
It was a crude propaganda exercise on behalf of a terrorist state which is systematically ethnically cleansing Arab families from their homes to mak room for people of the "right ethnic background" - with the apparent support of between one third and a half of its citizens

This programme stands as indisputable evidence that all accusations of Labour Antisemitism are about defending the Israeli regime AND NOTHING ELSE
I very much doubt if the Palestinians will be given an equal chance to state their cae THAT WOULD BE ANTISEMITIC BY TODAY'S RULES
If any more proof were needed, that fact that the couple of Israeli supporters here have refused with their silence to specify what they are accusing Labour of

BRING ON BDS - THE MORE EFFECTIvE, THE BETTER
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: The UK Labour Party and Antisemitism.
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Sep 18 - 09:20 PM

Earlier tonight I sat (partially) through the television programme 'We Are British Jews' tonight - _ I say !partially - I can't remember being more angry at a total distorion of fact outright lies, bullying and blustering and right wing propaganda
A group of 'ordinary' Jewish people described how poor little nuclear facilitated Israel was fighting for her existence from attacks by Arab terrorists who wished to turn her from a peace loving refuge for Jewish People to an Arab state
No mention of massacres, destruction of homes and schools indiscriminate bombings, use of chemical and anti-personnel weapons, land grabbing, mass evictions......... certainly no reference of the fact that Israel facilitated the greatest single massacre of unarmed civilians in the latter half of the 20th century - not a mention of the fact that Israel has just murdered nearly twice the number of demonstrators as did the Apartheid regime in South Africa - certainly no comarison of casualty figures
Israel was the victim - the Arabs were the perpetrators
No siege was taking place in Gaza - the Israelis were just preventing weapons being brought into the country that would be used to murder Jews.
The rather timid young woman who spoke up on behalf of Palestinian suffering was bullied into silence
It was like listening to a room of screaming Keiths
Behind it all was rhge gentler voice of the commentator, Stephen Mangan (who, up t now, I have admired, with lie after lie, distortion after distortion
It was a crude propaganda exercise on behalf of a terrorist state which is systematically ethnically cleansing Arab families from their homes to mak room for people of the "right ethnic background" - with the apparent support of between one third and a half of its citizens

This programme stands as indisputable evidence that all accusations of Labour Antisemitism are about defending the Israeli regime AND NOTHING ELSE
I very much doubt if the Palestinians will be given an equal chance to state their cae THAT WOULD BE ANTISEMITIC BY TODAY'S RULES
If any more proof were needed, that fact that the couple of Israeli supporters here have refused with their silence to specify what they are accusing Labour of

BRING ON BDS - THE MORE EFFECTIvE, THE BETTER
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: The UK Labour Party and Antisemitism.
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 05 Sep 18 - 02:26 AM

I didn't see the programme, but if the title was "We are British Jews", you would have expected it to focus on their life as Jews in Britain, rather than any other country. Am I being too naive?

Subject: RE: BS: The UK Labour Party and Antisemitism.
From: Iains
Date: 05 Sep 18 - 03:06 AM

The only thing to take away from this unsavoury labour feuding is that it clearly demonstrates to the entire world how totally unsuited Corbyn is to be a party leader. Long may he reign, his party will never gain power with him at the helm.
As an opposition party they have all the impact of a wet lettuce. I just luv it!

Subject: RE: BS: The UK Labour Party and Antisemitism.
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Sep 18 - 03:16 AM

It was a programme deliberately and rather crudely designed to, on the one hand smear the Labour leadership by presenting them as Anti-semitic and on the other, to present Israel as a defensive victim of terrorist attacks rather than what it has become, an extremist right wing state in the process of 'purifying' itself of its legitimate Aarab citizens
It viewed as a blatant 'Party Political Broadcast on behalf of the Likud Party'; as someone born during WW2, with all the memories and emotions that provokes, it filled me with horror and disgust - a one-sided rant for extremism
Up to the time I stormed out, it in no way attempted to describe antisemitism experienced by the participants at the hands of Labour members, just repetitions of the accusations we have all been bombarded with from the right-wing establishment and media since Corbyn first expressed his support and sympathy for the plight of the Palestinian people   
The two things it established beyond any doubt; all the accusations made against Corbyn and his supporters concern their criticism of Israel and NOT attacks on the Jewish People and that all these accusations are part of the ANTI-BDS CAMPAIGN

Time for an alternative view of Israel, I think
A Jewish view of the effect of Israel's behaviour on Diaspora Jews from an Smerican/Jewish founded source makes interesting reading

DIASPORA JEWS
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: The UK Labour Party and Antisemitism.
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Sep 18 - 03:16 AM

It was a programme deliberately and rather crudely designed to, on the one hand smear the Labour leadership by presenting them as Anti-semitic and on the other, to present Israel as a defensive victim of terrorist attacks rather than what it has become, an extremist right wing state in the process of 'purifying' itself of its legitimate Aarab citizens
It viewed as a blatant 'Party Political Broadcast on behalf of the Likud Party'; as someone born during WW2, with all the memories and emotions that provokes, it filled me with horror and disgust - a one-sided rant for extremism
Up to the time I stormed out, it in no way attempted to describe antisemitism experienced by the participants at the hands of Labour members, just repetitions of the accusations we have all been bombarded with from the right-wing establishment and media since Corbyn first expressed his support and sympathy for the plight of the Palestinian people   
The two things it established beyond any doubt; all the accusations made against Corbyn and his supporters concern their criticism of Israel and NOT attacks on the Jewish People and that all these accusations are part of the ANTI-BDS CAMPAIGN

Time for an alternative view of Israel, I think
A Jewish view of the effect of Israel's behaviour on Diaspora Jews from an Smerican/Jewish founded source makes interesting reading

DIASPORA JEWS
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: The UK Labour Party and Antisemitism.
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Sep 18 - 03:19 AM

nk you for confirming this this is about right wing extremism and nothing to do with the Jewish People Iains - you couldn't have timed it better
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: The UK Labour Party and Antisemitism.
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 05 Sep 18 - 03:41 AM

Jim,
; all the accusations made against Corbyn and his supporters concern their criticism of Israel and NOT attacks on the Jewish People and that all these accusations are part of the ANTI-BDS CAMPAIGN

Corbyn himself is anti-BDS, as you well know!

What is incredibly stupid is that some jewish \re demanding the expulsion of John Willsman for referring to them as 'Trump lovers'

Momentum expelled him over what he said without an prompting from anyone, and Labour demanded he apologise, which he did, and go for diversity training.
You are the only person I have heard defend his anti-Semitism.

Subject: RE: BS: The UK Labour Party and Antisemitism.
From: Iains
Date: 05 Sep 18 - 03:52 AM

"nk you for confirming this this is about right wing extremism and nothing to do with the Jewish People Iains"

How you come up with that ludicrous statement from anything I have posted, totally escapes me.Perhaps you would care to explain your logic in deriving such a position? My position is that Corbyn is leading the labour party into the wilderness(hopefully for ever) and he is doing it all by himself. All the ruling party needs to do is simply cheer on his stupidity from the sidelines. He is the architect of   his own dismal failure. That is abundantly clear to all but a few diehards inhabiting this particular bit of cyberspace.

Subject: RE: BS: The UK Labour Party and Antisemitism.
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 05 Sep 18 - 04:37 AM

What "ruling party?" Would that be the one propped up by a bought-off tawdry bunch of terrorist sympathisers?

Subject: RE: BS: The UK Labour Party and Antisemitism.
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Sep 18 - 04:48 AM

"How you come up with that ludicrous statement from anything I have posted,"
That a supporter of this fuck-up of of a government presently in the process of stumbling Britain out of Europe and into an economic/political abyss can suggest that a principled politician like Corbyn is unfit to lead his party says everything that needs to be said about their intention here - nothing to do with anti-semitism - just right-wing politicicising
Israel is now attempting to interfere in British politics (with a degree of success), just as Russia did with the US elections and Brexit
You and Keith, as right wingers are supporting that interference

"Corbyn himself is anti-BDS, as you well know!"
So what Keith - unlike you, I don't swallow the word of politicians wholesale - I can disagree with them and still respect them
Corbyn will, if he has anything about him, will be forced to support BDS - he has no other alternative
BDS is no different thsn was the Snti Apartheid campaign against South Africa - same problems different location
Willsman accused the demonstrators against Corbyn of being Trump Lovers and he attacked the Zionists attempting to influence Labour policy - he did not mention the Jewish People
Trump is supporting the israeli re#gime and that regime is kissing his are#se by naming a railway station after him
What on earth in anti-semitic about any of that
Trum is a fascist thug and Israel is supporting him - israel has masterminded this whole ant-Corbyn campaign
The only antisemitism herte is by those who equate any of this with the Jewish People - it even says so in the new definition
Holding Jews collectively responsible for actions of the state of Israel.

And still no specifying the charges of antisemitism from either of you - I never expected it - lynch mobs don't go in fro that sort of thing
Jim Carroll
Sorry for the double postings - keyboard trouble sfter a spilled coffee cup

Subject: RE: BS: The UK Labour Party and Antisemitism.
From: Jack Campin
Date: 05 Sep 18 - 05:45 AM

Corbyn himself is anti-BDS, as you well know!

I didn't know that, thanks.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/dec/13/jeremy-corbyn-does-not-support-boycott-of-israel-bds-movement

What I did know was that he backs the Tories on Brexit and on the obliteration of Scotland as a nation. Which made him a despicable enough slimebag already. Backing the genocide of the Palestinians is entirely consistent with the evil I already knew he promoted.

I guess we will shortly find he also backs the Myanmar state on exterminating the Rohingya and the Saudis on exterminating the Shia of Yemen. The seems to be no grate stopping his slide down the moral gutter.

Subject: RE: BS: The UK Labour Party and Antisemitism.
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 05 Sep 18 - 06:06 AM

What on earth in anti-semitic about any of that (Willsman's bile)

Guardian,
A few days later Willsman apologised, saying he was “of course aware of appalling instances of antisemitism in the party”

So he accepts he was being anti-Semitic and he confirms that in the party it is appalling.

Momentum withdrew its backing of him for the NEC because of his anti-Semitism.

Labour demanded he apologise for his anti-Semitism and attend diversity training.

Jim says it was not anti-Semitic but Momentum, the Labour leadership and Willsman himself said it was.

Also the Deputy Leader said he was "a loud mouthed bully."

Subject: RE: BS: The UK Labour Party and Antisemitism.
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Sep 18 - 06:27 AM

I was referring to yesterday's calls to expel him for calling protesters Trump lovers Keith
I know nothing of earlier occurrences
I have little doubt that some Labour party members have followed israel's lead in blaming the Jewish People for their atrocities - I said at the beginning of all this that Israel's behaviour has painted a target on the back of every Jew on the Planet
Israel has managed not only to create Jewish non-Jews, but its misuse of the term has made 'antisemitism' totally meaningless
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: The UK Labour Party and Antisemitism.
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 05 Sep 18 - 07:02 AM

I was referring to yesterday's calls to expel him for calling protesters Trump lovers Keith

So was I. Everything I said was about that.

Subject: RE: BS: The UK Labour Party and Antisemitism.
From: Iains
Date: 05 Sep 18 - 07:05 AM

"You and Keith, as right wingers are supporting that interference"
Wild allegations without a shred of evidence. Away with the faeries as usual. In the world of Carrol 2+2=5.
We do not have to specify the allegations against the labour party. Any newspaper in the UK has been drumming on about it for months. Why should I repeat endlessly what is already a matter of public record, or do you like having your nose rubbed in it repeatedly?

"Jeremy Corbyn has been accused of attempting to “sully” an internationally recognised definition of anti-Semitism with a last-minute caveat which would have allowed Labour activists to describe the foundation of Israel as “racist”
That stupidity got nipped in the bud a bit smartish like!
Is this the new labour technique of guaranteeing they will never form a government?

Subject: RE: BS: The UK Labour Party and Antisemitism.
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Sep 18 - 07:06 AM

I don't care Keith
DEscribing protersing Israeli supporters as 'Trump Lovers id not antisemitism - I've just listened to a recording of exactly what he said - I suggest you do the same
Now will you please stop blaming the jewish people for what Israel is doing - it's antisemitic
Jim Carrill

Subject: RE: BS: The UK Labour Party and Antisemitism.
From: Iains
Date: 05 Sep 18 - 07:13 AM

The NYT has a cruel summary of Labour SNATCHING DEFEAT FROM THE JAWS OF VICTORY

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/09/04/world/europe/uk-labour-anti-semitism-corbyn.html

Good to see a real newspaper agree with me.

Subject: RE: BS: The UK Labour Party and Antisemitism.
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Sep 18 - 07:13 AM

We do not have to specify the allegations against the labour party."
Yes you do - wat are they exactly
I say they are attacks on Israel - what is your version?
Thefact that ou will continue to refuse to reply will have mademy point for me - for which - my thanks
Your bully aggressive insulting reflects exctly your politics - again - my thanks for proving my point
You of all people arenot in the position to talk down to people - either intellectually or morally - always the case with would-be bullies - especially tose wo do their bulling from the safety of anonymity and distance
Have a brave day now
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: The UK Labour Party and Antisemitism.
From: KarenH
Date: 05 Sep 18 - 07:26 AM

According to the Daily Express today

Labour leader Jeremy Corbyn has himself been under fire for his handling of the anti-Semitism problem, especially for calling for the NEC to accept a clarification that it should not be considered anti-Semitic to describe Israel as racist.

and

However, the NEC has faced backlash for also passing a statement of clarification that the changes do “not in any way undermine freedom of expression” on Israel or the rights of Palestinians.
Campaigners said the party seems “determined to provide a safe space for anti-Semites” and adding such a caveat to the internationally accepted definition just gives racists a free pass. It isn't clear which campaigners allegedly said this from the Express article.


Jewish Leadership Council chief executive Simon Johnson said: “It has now become absolutely clear that the leader of the party attempted shamefully to undermine the entire IHRA definition.
“The ‘free speech caveat’ drives a coach and horses through the IHRA definition. It will do nothing to stop anti-Semitism in the party.”

Johnson also accused Corbyn of being more keen on protecting the rights of 'those who hate Israel' than he is to protect the Jewish community from the real threats that it faces.

He claimed that the definition does allow "vociferous criticism" of Israel and Israeli policies, but the Express article leaves this out.

Here I am just contributing what might be useful information, not wishing to imply agreement with the approach of Johnson or the Express.

Subject: RE: BS: The UK Labour Party and Antisemitism.
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Sep 18 - 07:47 AM

It was on the cards that the signing off of this definition was not going to satisfy hard-liners
Johnson, with his racist history confirms the interest the right have in this affair
It has never been more than using the Jewish People as human shields from day one
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: The UK Labour Party and Antisemitism.
From: KarenH
Date: 05 Sep 18 - 07:56 AM

I looked at the NY Times article.

While Mr. Corbyn insists he abhors racism and has offered several expressions of regret and apologies over the anti-Semitism claims, he is in no mood to hide either his criticism of Israel or the support he has given to pro-Palestinian causes for decades.

Good for Corbyn. Pity the NY Times journalist appears to take such a dim view of support for pro-Palestinian causes.

Subject: RE: BS: The UK Labour Party and Antisemitism.
From: Jack Campin
Date: 05 Sep 18 - 08:38 AM

Corbyn opposes any kind of boycott as a tactic to persuade the Israeli state to act as if it has a conscience. With opposition like that, Israel is crying all the way to the bank.

Subject: RE: BS: The UK Labour Party and Antisemitism.
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 05 Sep 18 - 08:39 AM

It does seem that there are various people, on this thread, in various of the media, and in the Labour party, who are seeking to use allegations of anti-semitism to shut down support for the Palestinian cause. Good for Corbyn for resisting this.

Subject: RE: BS: The UK Labour Party and Antisemitism.
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 05 Sep 18 - 08:47 AM

- I've just listened to a recording of exactly what he said - I suggest you do the same

I have.
The Labour Party leadership says it is anti-Semitic.
Momentum says it is anti-Semitic.
He himself admits it was anti-Semitic.
Jim say it is not. No surprise there.

Subject: RE: BS: The UK Labour Party and Antisemitism.
From: KarenH
Date: 05 Sep 18 - 09:20 AM

This appears (and I may be wrong on this) to be an example which has made Corbyn cautious:

Denying the Jewish people their right to self-determination, e.g., by claiming that the existence of a State of Israel is a racist endeavor.

Let's assume that the authors of the definition disagree with the claim. Maybe we should discuss why the State of Israel is not 'a racist endeavor'?

Subject: RE: BS: The UK Labour Party and Antisemitism.
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Sep 18 - 09:27 AM

THe labour Party leadership is playing to the crowd
Accusing members of loving Trump is not antisemitic, no matter who says it is
This is exactly the damage to the Jewish People I have described - nobody knows what antisemitism is any more
You explain why saying what he said is antisemitic and sop hiding behind what you claim others have said - you've done this far too often as you did when you claimed all Muslims were culturally implanted o have uderage sex - I've linked you to that one so don't you dare deny it
"Corbyn opposes any kind of boycott as a tactic to persuade the Israeli state to act as if it has a conscience. "
I think orbyn is caught between a rock and a hard place here - as he is with Brexit
On the one hand, he has the support of the Rank and File, on the other, he is faced with a benchful of career politicians more concerned about their bank-balances than they are about Socialism
So far, he's walked the tightrope pretty well despite Israel's efforts to bring him down
What he does now wil make him or break him
Britain desperately needs a party wit real alternative policies - he seems to be a hope of that, which is why he has my support
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: The UK Labour Party and Antisemitism.
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Sep 18 - 09:37 AM

Incidentally Keith
You lied when you said Willsman admitted what he said was antisemitic

From your own link
The veteran leftwing activist Peter Willsman has spent most of his career in Labour politics, either sitting on the NEC or fighting to get on it, making him a well-known figure in party circles even if he is little known to the public.
Willsman was part of the Grassroots Alliance slate that humiliated Tony Blair at the height of his power in 1998, winning one of four spots on the party’s ruling body alongside the Islington barrister Liz Davies at the end of a bitterly fought campaign.
Even then, Willsman was described as a veteran figure, involved in the Bennite Campaign for Labour Party Democracy (CLPD), the fringe campaign that argued for a party conference accountable to members and mandatory reselection of MPs from as long ago as the 1970s.
He remains the secretary of CLPD, which was also once a stomping ground for Jon Lansman, the founder of Momentum. But the two men, both strong supporters of Jeremy Corbyn, are not thought to be close as they once were, as shown by Momentum’s decision to remove Willsman from its slate when he ran into controversy in July.
At the end of that month, Willsman was recorded as calling some Jews “Trump fanatics”, adding he would “not be lectured” by Jewish supporters of the US president “making up duff information without any evidence at all”, at an NEC meeting in July at which Corbyn was present.
Peter Willsman dismisses Labour antisemitism claims – audio
A recording was leaked to the Jewish Chronicle and his critics in the party were quick to pile in. Tom Watson, the party’s deputy leader, tweeted: “For the avoidance of doubt: Peter Willsman is and always has been a loud-mouthed bully. He disgusts me.”
A few days later Willsman apologised, saying he was >“of course aware of appalling instances of antisemitism in the party”, that he was “wholly determined to rooting it out of our movement” and that he would undertake equalities training.

Why do you do this - you always get found out?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: The UK Labour Party and Antisemitism.
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 05 Sep 18 - 09:52 AM

You lied when you said Willsman admitted what he said was anti-Semitic

So why did he apologise and agree to diversity training?

Subject: RE: BS: The UK Labour Party and Antisemitism.
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 05 Sep 18 - 10:01 AM

Not the point. You lied, just as you lied over Wheatcroft. We don't like you enough not to find you out. You never learn, do you?

Subject: RE: BS: The UK Labour Party and Antisemitism.
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 05 Sep 18 - 10:04 AM

I did not lie and never have.
He did apologise.

Subject: RE: BS: The UK Labour Party and Antisemitism.
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 05 Sep 18 - 10:12 AM

Steve,
It was Jim that got it wrong, or lied if you prefer.
Here is the link he referred to.
Neither in the text or the audio does he deny that his words were anti-Semitic.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/sep/03/peter-willsman-the-labour-veteran-behind-latest-antisemitism-row

Everything I stated was true. You and Jim have egg on your faces again.

Subject: RE: BS: The UK Labour Party and Antisemitism.
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 05 Sep 18 - 10:13 AM

Give over Chaps. You know the score by now. Everyone has seen what was said and there is no need to engage in the linguistics knots that he will go through to try and win what has already been lost. Don't fall for it!

Subject: RE: BS: The UK Labour Party and Antisemitism.
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 05 Sep 18 - 10:17 AM

And now Dave has egg on his face too.

I was right in what I said. He never denied his words were anti-Semitic.
He did not challenge Labour's or Momentum's charge that he had been anti-Semitic.
He apologised as requested and agreed to diversity training exactly as I said.

Subject: RE: BS: The UK Labour Party and Antisemitism.
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 05 Sep 18 - 10:19 AM

FFS! Don't. Feed. The. Troll.

Subject: RE: BS: The UK Labour Party and Antisemitism.
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 05 Sep 18 - 10:21 AM

I will make one prediction though :-)

The route from He himself admits it was anti-Semitic (05 Sep 18 - 08:47 AM) to Neither in the text or the audio does he deny that his words were anti-Semitic (05 Sep 18 - 10:12 AM) will feature in the verbal gymnastics that are bound to ensue.

Subject: RE: BS: The UK Labour Party and Antisemitism.
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 05 Sep 18 - 10:22 AM

Amen, BWM.

You fell for it earlier though :-D

Subject: RE: BS: The UK Labour Party and Antisemitism.
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 05 Sep 18 - 10:27 AM

You know, thinking about it, I have never denied that I often fart the national anthem. I suppose that means I must admit it.

Steve, you have never denied jumping off the wardrobe crying 'Geronimo' while dressed in skin tight spandex.

BWM, I have never heard you deny your never ending love for marmalade and pickle sandwiches.

There are some very strange people round here...

:D tG

Subject: RE: BS: The UK Labour Party and Antisemitism.
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 05 Sep 18 - 10:35 AM

"You fell for it earlier though :-D"

Ha! That I did Dave. I was giving him a chance to behave like an adult and have a reasoned, rational discussion but, as I ought to have expected, he's firmly and permanently entrenched in the schoolyard, and proved himself incapable. You can't educate pork.

It won't happen again.

Subject: RE: BS: The UK Labour Party and Antisemitism.
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 05 Sep 18 - 10:53 AM

He himself admits it was anti-Semitic (05 Sep 18 - 08:47 AM) to Neither in the text or the audio does he deny that his words were anti-Semitic (05 Sep 18 - 10:12 AM)

Both statements verifiably true.
What is your point Dave?

Subject: RE: BS: The UK Labour Party and Antisemitism.
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Sep 18 - 11:01 AM

"So why did he apologise and agree to diversity training?"
All parliamentarians need behavioral training - it's like a feckin zoo
How can he admit it if he denied it
No more keith - whatis te antisemistism you have spent seveal years accusing Labour of ?

"FFS! Don't. Feed. The. Troll."
He won't answer this so I have done my job and finished
The man's an instictive liar
Jim Carrl

Subject: RE: BS: The UK Labour Party and Antisemitism.
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 05 Sep 18 - 11:07 AM

Agreed, Jim. More twists than a John le Carré novel. The sooner that everyone agrees to not get drawn down to the same level, the better.

Subject: RE: BS: The UK Labour Party and Antisemitism.
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 05 Sep 18 - 11:15 AM

"The man's an instictive liar"

Yep. Also the Peter Pan of Mudcat - he never grew up. A childish troll and attention seeker who employs the behaviour of the playground to hook the unwary into his stupid games.

He really is best ignored.

Subject: RE: BS: The UK Labour Party and Antisemitism.
From: robomatic
Date: 05 Sep 18 - 11:34 AM

Not only is the definition of antisemitism a field of study, so is the use of racism to describe Israeli policy, attitude, and treatment of Palestinians (so-called). Israelis come in all colors. Palesitinians come in various shades, too. But the actual issues around which things really matter are the ones of land ownership, land occupation, right-of-return (or not).
Israel is a democratic country with all races, all religions, all sexual orientations and variations. and a strong capitalistic economy with some strong socialistic institutions.
Pick any next-door neighbor to Israel and you get dictatorship, monoculture, oppression of women, educational starvation, and civil strife. Big-time.
Yet all this donnybrook about Israeli policy, which is primarily designed to preserve her existence. Piling on to the smallest quarterback in the league because it's the one with the filed teeth. Real brave. Real crazy.

Subject: RE: BS: The UK Labour Party and Antisemitism.
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 05 Sep 18 - 12:03 PM

Aaaaaand...100!