The 'Gypsy' Controversy

Subject: The 'Gypsy' Controversary
From: GUEST,Ed Silberman
Date: 05 Sep 18 - 02:44 PM

I've heard it said that Romani people find the word "gypsy" an insult, but never by Romani people, or, to my knowledge, by anyone who has ever met a Romani. I'm skeptical of people who speak for others. Does anyone know of a Romani source for this discussion?

Subject: RE: The 'Gypsy' Controversary
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 05 Sep 18 - 02:53 PM

In Spain they don't have any of this nonsense - if you are a gypsy, you call youself a gypsy, folks call you a gypsy and everyone is very happy. There is none of all this "traveller" nonsense!!!!!!!!!

Subject: RE: The 'Gypsy' Controversary
From: meself
Date: 05 Sep 18 - 02:56 PM

Well - there you go.

Subject: RE: The 'Gypsy' Controversary
From: Jack Campin
Date: 05 Sep 18 - 02:57 PM

The connotations of the words are very context-dependent. You can't make any general rules about what words to use, when, where or who to.

Subject: RE: The 'Gypsy' Controversary
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 05 Sep 18 - 03:15 PM

And the PC brigade are gold medalists at that!!

Subject: RE: The 'Gypsy' Controversary
From: Jack Campin
Date: 05 Sep 18 - 03:19 PM

There is no "PC brigade" except in the fantasy world of Daily Mail readers.

Subject: RE: The 'Gypsy' Controversary
From: BobKnight
Date: 05 Sep 18 - 03:56 PM

As one who comes from a Scottish traveller background, I can tell you now, there is a difference between travellers and gypsies. They are NOT the same. I am NOT a gypsy, there are very few gypsies in Scotland, and although to members of the settled community we may seem "all the same," we are not.

If I was a gypsy, I'd proudly declare myself as one, but I'm not. I'm proud of my heritage as a Scottish traveller.

Subject: RE: The 'Gypsy' Controversary
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 05 Sep 18 - 04:27 PM

"There is no "PC brigade" except in the fantasy world of Daily Mail readers."

Isn't there?

Subject: RE: The 'Gypsy' Controversary
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Sep 18 - 06:31 PM

In my part of England I don't remember hearing the word "traveller" used until it was necessary to distinguish real gypsies from the new age travellers. Before that a "traveller" was a man in a bad suit with a suitcase of samples.

Subject: RE: The 'Gypsy' Controversary
From: robomatic
Date: 06 Sep 18 - 01:43 AM

It is a moving target, PC is. In ye olden days, there were common expressions of ethnic import: "jew someone down", "dutch courage", "welsh on a bet". I never heard 'em much, but now I don't hear them at all in the U.S. or online. I'm in favor of that sort of PC, but there is a lovely song Gordon Bok used to sing that has the term "indian giver" in it and I can't find anything else that scans right in its place.

Gilbert and Sullivan used the 'n' word in "Mikado" and long since it has been successfully edited out. Now there are PC hounds who want to edit out the whole "Mikado" which is a clear case of over zealousness since it means they don't understand what "Mikado" is about. It's not about the Japanese.

Locally there is a whiff of PC sentiment against the term eskimo. I know the older generation of Arctic natives does not hold a grudge against it, but maybe some of the later generations want to establish a sense of control over terminology. The issue might not be the word itself, but a sense of ownership.

Subject: RE: The 'Gypsy' Controversary
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 06 Sep 18 - 01:54 AM

Nobody tells me what I can say and not say.

Subject: RE: The 'Gypsy' Controversary
From: KarenH
Date: 06 Sep 18 - 03:29 AM

As I understand it, the term 'politically correct' was devised as a term of abuse/ridicule/insult by some journalist or newspaper which objected to equal right/anti-discrimination movements. This is certainly how it has come to be used and it is supported by anti-liberal thinkers. I am surprised to see that it is used as a term of ridicule on a folk and blues based forum.

Subject: RE: The 'Gypsy' Controversary
From: ollaimh
Date: 06 Sep 18 - 03:46 AM

yes politcal correctness is an idea to provide cover for ignorant nasty impolite and viscious bigots.

but as to the question, the roma i knew in canada were offended by the term gypsy, an i support the basic principle that decent ethical and kind people use the terms that that ethnic group prefers.

on the other hand irish roma i met years ago seemed to not mind the term gypsy. i don't know why. some irish travellers are gaelic , and some roma and some mixed. i was told that finbar furey spoke gaelic and romani as well as english--by a piper who played with him back in the old days(who won the all irealnd piping championship around 1959-60).

i would use the term prefered by the people themselves

Subject: RE: The 'Gypsy' Controversary
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 06 Sep 18 - 09:31 AM

The gypsy woman told my mother
Before I was born
I got a boy-child's comin'
He's gonna be a son-of-a-gun
He's gonna make pretty women's
Jump and shout
Then the world gonna know
What this all about

Don't you know I'm here
Everybody knows I'm here
Well, you know I'm the hoochie-coochie man
Everybody knows I'm here

I got a black cat bone
I got a mojo too
I got John the Conqueror
I'm gonna mess with you
I'm gonna make you girls
Lead me by my hand
Then the world'll know
The hoochie-coochie man

Don't you know I'm here
Everybody knows I'm here
Well, you know I'm the hoochie-coochie man
Everybody knows I'm here

On the seventh hour
On the seventh day
On the seventh mont
The seventh doctor say
"He was born for good luck
And that you see
I got seven hundred dollars
And don't you mess with me

But you know I'm here
Everybody knows I'm here
Well, you know I'm the hoochie-coochie man
Everybody knows I'm here

Subject: RE: The 'Gypsy' Controversary
From: Raedwulf
Date: 06 Sep 18 - 10:31 AM

Lots of people tell you what you can or cannot say, Bonzo. You just imagine that your opinion (often ill-expressed on here, if not also ill-informed) can never be wrong, therefore you remain heedless. It doesn't mean that you're right, let alone Right! I wonder if you understand the subtle difference there.

Anyway, language is tricky. I find it objectionable that Tyson Fury labels himself "The Gypsy King". He isn't Romany, he's of Irish Traveller descent. He isn't gypsy, he's just trying to claim the associated glamour / romanticism that goes with the word. As Bob Knight says, Romany & Irish (or Scottish, but the Scottish are all Irish anyway; there's another can of worms... ;-) ). Travellers are not the same thing at all.

The problem is that people use words with a broad definition, and therefore they use them carelessly, imagining that everyone else understands exactly the same thing as they meant... Which often doesn't happen. So, whatever I or A.N.Other may think, Gypsy in many people's ears does encompass Irish Travellers & others.

For some reason, I forget why, I had occasion to investigate the question of Romany population in the UK a few weeks ago. Depending on your estimate it runs up to 200-300K. Particularly, there is (or was) a significant concentration in Wales; I have no idea why. I may be wrong, but I think the separate & distinct Traveller community is much the same (from afore-mentioned curiosity). There is also an umbrella organisation that covers both & others. Not because they are the same thing; they know they are different; but because they know that 'gadjos' (a Romany word for outsider, non-Romany) don't discriminate between the different communities, they only see the similarities. So you might as well ally, if you're all being tarred with the same brush!

Gypsy, of course, derives from 'Egyptian', from the belief that the original Gypsies originated in Egypt. They didn't. They originated in India, and their language shows many fundamental & significant similarities with Hindi & other Indian languages. Equally, I understand that Traveller argot has strong links with Irish Gaelic.

As to whether or not Romany or Traveller consider "gypsy" an insult, I cannot say. I can only suggest that, as always, some will, some won't, some like Fury will use the term for what they can get out of it by any means, and some will embrace it. And there are many who will hold, in some degree, more than one of those positions, even if contradictory.

Such is human nature!

Subject: RE: The 'Gypsy' Controversary
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Sep 18 - 11:03 AM

"As to whether or not Romany or Traveller consider "gypsy" an insult, I cannot say."
Romanys consider themselves real Gypsies - Some use the term in a racist manner to belittle other groups of travellers
I see Bozo is in full racist flow
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: The 'Gypsy' Controversary
From: Raedwulf
Date: 06 Sep 18 - 11:19 AM

In fairness, Jim, Bonzo (why be childish, Jim?) doesn't strike me as being racist particularly. Just bloody ignorant. And Bonzo, if you now want to get into a snit-fit & take umbrage... Take a breath first & think. Why does someone say that about you, react to you that way?

No-one can tell you what you can & cannot say. But everyone will react to what you say and to how you say it. Are you shouting for the sake of hearing your own voice, or do you have a point you want to get across? If the former, go on as you are. If the latter... I really do suggest you have a bit of a think, my dear chap...

Subject: RE: The 'Gypsy' Controversary
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Sep 18 - 11:41 AM

"doesn't strike me as being racist particularly."
We have to disagree - I consider permanently aggressive attitude offensive and his racism and mysio#oginy (whether real or assumed) is part of the baggage he brings to this forum

On Travellers (the safest term to use without giving offence, basically there in no difference between any of the various groups - inter-marriage and urbanisation has put paid to that
Nowadays, terms like Romany and "real Gypsy' tend to be used to gain advantage in an inc#reasingly bad situation
If things continue as they are, I doubt if there will be any Travellers on the road in the next quater of a century - they will have been ethnically cleansed out of existence as an itinerant community
This is why I take such quick offence when I read terms like "P.C." or "nobody tells me what to say"
The opposite to "political correctness" is "political incorrectness - quite often of the type that is killing off the Travelling Communities
Saying bad things about minority communities is a form of persecution
We already have a little enclave of people on this forum who have described Travellers as "thrives" "a blot on our landscape" and "slave-owners"
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: The 'Gypsy' Controversary
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 06 Sep 18 - 11:42 AM

Looking forward to a jolly good buffet dinner at the moment!!

Subject: RE: The 'Gypsy' Controversary
From: Senoufou
Date: 06 Sep 18 - 01:33 PM

We noticed some travellers' caravans parked up a little by-lane on the way into Norwich. Five or six vans, and several towing vehicles. They had erected a lovely washing line from tree to tree, and I noticed some small children playing together.

Each time we passed, we saw that they'd bagged up their rubbish neatly in black bin bags and piled them up at the entrance to the lane.

Yesterday they'd gone. And all the bin bags had gone too. Not a scrap of paper or any rubbish had been left.

We thought that was excellent. Hope they find somewhere else just as quiet, green and peaceful as that lane for their next stopover.

Subject: RE: The 'Gypsy' Controversary
From: robomatic
Date: 06 Sep 18 - 01:34 PM

I agree on not giving offense where it is not intended. But I also agree with the line from "The Virginian":


"When you call me that - smile!"

Subject: RE: The 'Gypsy' Controversary
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 07 Sep 18 - 12:24 PM

I was talking to my mum yesterday, about the old west country days and ways...

I asked her if a certain notoriously handsome charming rogue uncle had any 'gypsy' in him...?
He was a bit of a rural rebel heart throb back in the rock n roll era..
It was a positive and plausible question, using a word easily understood by my 86 year old mum..
The context being clear to her, and I suppose also any urban D H Lawrence readers...

Same as my mum is happy to say we've got some Jew in us.. [which we have]..
No problems in the privacy of her kitchen...

But a few years ago when she still went out doing her own shopping,
she would casually tell any shop assistant she was careful with the pennies,
because "she couldn't help being Jewish..."
Completely oblivious to the cringes of young shoppers overhearing her...

Context makes a real difference...

Subject: RE: The 'Gypsy' Controversary
From: Will Fly
Date: 07 Sep 18 - 05:38 PM

There was always a strain of casual, almost unthinking, strain of prejudice in British society at all levels. I'm fond of the 1930s novels of Dorothy Sayers and JB Priestley, but find their casual, disparaging descriptions of Jews cringe-making. It was just the accepted thing.

A story from the 1960s: a friend of mine worked, as a teenager, in his father's hardware-cum-tool shop in the school holidays. One day a black customer came into the shop. His father was dealing with another customer and said, "Andrew, can you serve the nigger". Andy was appalled and muttered a hurried apology to the black bloke, who shrugged it off. When the customers had left, Andy turned to his father and said, "Dad, you called that man a nigger!"

His father looked puzzled and said, "Well, he was, wasn't he?"

Subject: RE: The 'Gypsy' Controversy
From: vectis
Date: 08 Sep 18 - 03:49 AM

As I understand it:

Gypsies were the Romany gypsies who wandered round Europe doing seasonal work on farms.

Travellers are the offspring of the poor buggers thrown off their land by James plantationists in Northern Ireland.

Subject: RE: The 'Gypsy' Controversy
From: Senoufou
Date: 08 Sep 18 - 04:01 AM

In the early fifties, in W London, we looked forward to the arrival of a cavalcade of painted caravans, drawn by horses, that came every Spring.

We called the people 'gypsies' and they had fairly dark skins and black hair. They wore gold earrings and rather unusual clothing (headscarves, long flowing skirts) I think they might have been the true Romany folk.

We loved to see them, and when they came round the doors selling home-made pegs and bunches of white heather my mother always bought generously. She also gave them any outgrown clothes, coats, shoes etc for their children.
They drew a chalk sign on our gatepost. Maybe it indicated we'd happily buy and donate.

Subject: RE: The 'Gypsy' Controversy
From: Thompson
Date: 08 Sep 18 - 04:41 AM

Words - including the word 'brigade' used in the context of contempt - rule us when we think we rule them.

Here's what I know about the various groups of travelling people: not an expert, I've picked it up along the way.

'Traveller' comes from the Irish term for 'na lucht siuil' - the travelling people. It should be a neutral term. But like the term 'itinerant', an attempt to neuter and clean up language, and the term 'tinker', a statement of what was the main male occupation of the travelling people, it has become soiled by hatred.

The Travellers were originally peripatetic craftsmen and craftswomen doing work that didn't require a workshop and heavy, immovable tools. During the Famine - roughly 1845-50 - when thousands of destitute people were evicted from their homes and took to the roads, their group was expanded. Reputedly, many of these evictees came from Rathkeale, the village that is now the epicentre of Irish Traveller life.

Prejudice (among settled people against Travellers and among Travellers against settled people) has continued to keep Travellers out of education and out of mainstream society. The result is - in some cases - a group that sees the State both as an oppressor and as something from which one has the right to get housing and care without contributing.

There is huge inequality among Travellers. Millionaires who have made their money trading antiques. Some criminal millionaires who have made money trading rhino horn. Terribly poor people who have never had a chance. These groups see themselves as sharing a common culture, but the millionaires don't, as far as I know, help their poor co-culturists.

It's slowly changing; when I was a child Traveller children rarely went to school. Now, young Travellers are slowly beginning to graduate from university.

There's a movement, supported by the European Union, to declare Travellers a separate ethnic group. This will give them the right to economic help; whether it helps to integrate Travellers into general society remains to be seen.

Gypsies: the 'gypsy violinists' who played in restaurants all across Europe in the last couple of centuries were - or so I've read - largely Jewish, taking advantage of people being less prejudiced against gypsies than against Jews.

The original gypsies were so called as a shortening of 'Egyptian', the accepted idea being that they had migrated over the centuries from Egypt. However, later study found first cultural and later genetic evidence that they had migrated through Europe from India; Romany language has etymological ties to Sanscrit, their social customs - for instance, washing males' and females' clothing in separate bowls and crockery in a third - comes from Indian customs.

The gypsies in England tend to have a prejudice (humans love to look down on other humans for any difference, given a chance) against Travellers. They see their own blood as 'pure'… however, there is a great deal of intermarriage and admixture.

A new group of migrants joined both in the 1960s: 'New Age Travellers' - people who rejected mainstream society and travelled glamorously in vardos (hoop-topped, brightly-painted gypsy caravans) and were skilled in alternative technologies. Unlike either the Travellers or the Romany (gypsies), they had fluid attitudes to social norms like marriage. (The Travellers tend to marry very young and are deeply intolerant of any escape from marriage; with the gypsies too, loyalty to family is a central value.) The New Age Travellers, who have rather degenerated from the early glamour, have changed both of the core travelling societies.

In Ireland, Travellers have a horribly high level of illness: mental illness, addictions to alcohol, gambling, violence and now drugs; and physical illness like kidney disease from sleeping rough and diabetes from a diet virtually free of normal nourishment. They (many of them) cling to their culture, but resist knowing it as part of a general Irish culture: to them, it is a culture apart.

Travellers are known as skilled traders, skilled musicians and skilled storytellers ('bionn siúlach scéalach - whoever is a Traveller is a storyteller) is one of the proverbs about them). Their other skills: horse-breaking, peripatetic farriery, tinsmithing - have ceased to have a market, and have not been replaced by other similar skills, making them a largely dependent part of society. And dependence can make you resentful.

The mainstream culture is rejecting of them; Traveller children told me (30 years ago, perhaps this has changed) that librarians refused to let them into the library. Librarians told me that if books were lent to them they were either never returned or came back ruined. Chaos has a way of clasping people to itself and preventing them from breaking free.

My own belief is that if society really threw resources at Travellers and gypsies and New Age Travellers - not just housing and benefits, but social care, medical care, psychological care and educational care - the cycle of damage could be stopped, and these fine and creative people could be valuable to society as a whole.

Subject: RE: The 'Gypsy' Controversy
From: Thompson
Date: 08 Sep 18 - 05:32 AM

In relation to the 'PC' concept, Apple's guidelines for apps (which I've come across in an article on the 'Infowars' app being removed from Apple's platform) are surely accurate:

The first clause of those guidelines explicitly rejects content that is "defamatory, discriminatory, or mean-spirited content, including references or commentary about religion, race, sexual orientation, gender, national/ethnic origin, or other targeted groups, particularly if the app is likely to humiliate, intimidate, or place a targeted individual or group in harm’s way."

Subject: RE: The 'Gypsy' Controversy
From: KarenH
Date: 08 Sep 18 - 06:24 AM

I have only knowingly met people from travelling communities a few times. In one case, the people themselves disliked being called 'gypsies' and wanted to be referred to as 'travellers', though they did not move around and were agitating for a decent static site. The washing rituals of this group was felt (not by me, no expert) to link them to Indian origins. This community also emphatically saw themselves as 'English', pointing out that some of them had fought in WW II for the British. The context was they felt they had contributed to society and merited somewhere decent to put their caravans as a result.

In a second case, use was made of the term 'gypsies', at least when talking to people from outside the community. The person I knew best was a Boswell and said their grandfather was 'king of the gypsies'.

I would guess as a courtesy, it's a good idea to ask people how they would like to be referred to and to go with that.

Subject: RE: The 'Gypsy' Controversy
From: Raedwulf
Date: 08 Sep 18 - 07:34 AM

Vectis - as I understand it, the Irish have long had an itinerant travelling community; nothing to do with anyone being thrown off of the land . Although in fairness, that might have contributed some extra numbers!

Will - There was always a strain of casual, almost unthinking, strain of prejudice in British society at all levels. Again, in fairness, every society does this to some degree, because we are all human. I wouldn't go as far as Thompson in saying "Words rule us when we think we rule them". But we organise the world inside our heads by labelling things; how else could we do it? And amongst those labels are words that define other people as "different", "outsider", "not us". Welsh, for example, derives from a Germanic word meaning 'foreigner'. Inevitably, we tend to be wary of the unknown, and that can lead to...

The problem, in my opinion, is when people take the label for the thing & aren't aware that they are unthinkingly labelling an individual with a whole host of associations that may be screamingly inappropriate. So if I say black, ginger, Chinese, punk, rocker, mod, hippie, goth, Yank, French, fisherman, doctor, an image immediately arises in the mind of anyone reading. There may be truth in that image & in those associations. Cliches & stereotypes arise precisely because they occur often enough to stick in the collective consciousness (and then we make jokes about those cliches & stereotypes! ;-) ). But the error is when people stick a label on an individual & then fail to see the individual. If you see what I mean!

Subject: RE: The 'Gypsy' Controversy
From: Thompson
Date: 08 Sep 18 - 07:48 AM

I think societies tend to be prejudiced when they're under stress, and so outsiders seem a threat to resources of one sort or another - jobs, food, housing, a spouse…

Subject: RE: The 'Gypsy' Controversy
From: Senoufou
Date: 08 Sep 18 - 08:21 AM

I agree with you Raedwulf, we like to 'pigeonhole' people, categorising them in order to know what to expect. Labels are an automatic way of reassuring ourselves that we understand the characteristics of a person belonging to a certain group.

But it is a dangerous habit.

As you say, every human being on the planet is an individual, with his/her own hopes, dreams, fears, problems and sorrows.

It helps to try and chat to someone and get to know them a bit. It really breaks down barriers and enlightens one about someone's life.
That's why I yap enthusiastically with people I meet here and there.
Because I'm elderly and non-threatening, they tend to open up and yap back. I love this and learn a lot about humans!

Subject: RE: The 'Gypsy' Controversy
From: Raedwulf
Date: 08 Sep 18 - 08:52 AM

I suspect it has more to do with you being you, Sen. The elderly & non-threatening bit is merely an incidental... ;-)

Thompson - yes, that is also true. And much played upon by the whippers-up of unpleasant sentiment at every opportunity!

Subject: RE: The 'Gypsy' Controversy
From: Senoufou
Date: 08 Sep 18 - 09:08 AM

Prejudices make me sad. Just today we emerged from B&Q and saw a young, lone woman struggling with a huge length of wood, trying to get it into the boot of her rather tiny car.

My husband sprang into action (he loves helping folk, he's a very kind chap) and the woman shrank from him, looking a bit scared. I came forward and asked if she'd like a hand from my husband, and she relaxed immediately. He got the wood sorted and off she went.

I think she thought a black man might be a threat, or a man approaching her might be dodgy, which I can understand. But it's rather a pity.

This happens a lot in car parks with old folk, as my husband can't bear to see them struggle with shopping and zooms up to help. They always look startled, then pleased.

Subject: RE: The 'Gypsy' Controversy
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 08 Sep 18 - 09:19 AM

Coming back from my mum's the day before yesterday, I got talking to a stranger,
an older bloke on the train, who'd had a few drinks at an old boys reunion..

After a few minutes he turned the conversation round to his deeply believed conspiracy theories...

eg.. UK schools teaching perversion and satanism
Satanists running global Governments and British railway companies...
satanism is real and controlling everything..
Jews were mentioned as being historically involved one way or another...
.. those were some of the highlights I can remember...

He spoke too fast, and skipped from one inter-related conspiracy to another..

It became obvious he was an obsessed nutter,
but he was a retired well spoken educated upper classs gentleman,
called me "dear boy",
and was quite interesting to observe and converse with..

Anyway, just as he was about to go off on another tangent
he looked me directly in the face and asked out the blue
if I was a 'holocaust denier'...???

I relied of course not, why would I be...
To which he looked a bit deflated..
he apologised for asking, but said he needed to check,
then stopped himself taking the conversation where he had hoped to..

I suspect this is because I look more like an older nationalist skinhead thug than I do a young lefty antifa snowflake..

I guess he thought he might have found one of his own kind of thinkers,
and felt comfortable opening up to me;
just by instantly judging my appearance...

We exchanged pleasantries and I got off the train as my stop was next...

If only I'd thought to covertly record him on my smart phone.
I ususally only encounter these theories expressed incoherently on far right youtube channels..

Subject: RE: The 'Gypsy' Controversy
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 08 Sep 18 - 09:22 AM

I wonder if he is a mudcatter...???

Subject: RE: The 'Gypsy' Controversy
From: Senoufou
Date: 08 Sep 18 - 11:47 AM

Pwaaaaargh pfr, could well have been!!

When we go to the supermarket, I sometimes get very tired and have to sit down near the checkouts while my husband puts the goods through and pays the cashier.
I get chatting to some old biddy like myself, and the conversation often goes like this:-

"Weather's a bit nippy today isn't it?"

"That it is. Oi rek'n summer's ooover."

"Have you been away this year?"

"Nao. We hint hed noo harlday yit, thet we hint."

"I'm just sitting here while my husband does the checkout. I get tired nowadays."

"Me an' orl. Moi ligs int wot they yewst ter be."

"Ah. Here comes my husband now. He's finished at the checkout."
(jet black man in Ivorian costume, who looks about twenty, approaches, pushing trolley)

"????!!!!!!" (utter shock, horror and stunned silence from old biddy...)
It always makes me giggle.

Subject: RE: The 'Gypsy' Controversy
From: Jos
Date: 08 Sep 18 - 12:28 PM

I never know whether to visualise 'husband' in a splendid Ivorian costume or a random football top - it is very confusing (though I much prefer my image of the West African outfit).

Subject: RE: The 'Gypsy' Controversy
From: Senoufou
Date: 08 Sep 18 - 12:47 PM

Well he wears either depending on his mood Jos. I must say I prefer the traditional costume, as in my view he's a bit old for all these football tops.
(and the 'bazin' is more voluminous so it hides his tum, which sticks out a bit in the sporty stuff)
Also he does look very...er...well...more exotically African in his costume.

Subject: RE: The 'Gypsy' Controversy
From: Thompson
Date: 08 Sep 18 - 02:41 PM

punkfolkrocker, may I recommend the book Educated by Tara Westover? She grew up in a family with all those loopy ideas. Stunning book.

Subject: RE: The 'Gypsy' Controversy
From: keberoxu
Date: 09 Sep 18 - 05:49 PM

The viewpoint of Ian Hancock, Ph. D.

We Are the Romani People