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BS: I Survived the Warsaw Ghetto (93 yo)

robomatic 06 Sep 18 - 01:58 PM
bobad 06 Sep 18 - 02:27 PM
Donuel 06 Sep 18 - 02:41 PM
Steve Shaw 06 Sep 18 - 03:14 PM
Donuel 06 Sep 18 - 03:32 PM
Joe Offer 06 Sep 18 - 03:42 PM
robomatic 06 Sep 18 - 09:53 PM
Joe Offer 06 Sep 18 - 11:07 PM
Dave the Gnome 07 Sep 18 - 06:25 AM
Donuel 08 Sep 18 - 04:46 PM
robomatic 08 Sep 18 - 05:18 PM
Donuel 08 Sep 18 - 07:48 PM
Donuel 09 Sep 18 - 12:05 PM
robomatic 09 Sep 18 - 06:51 PM
robomatic 09 Sep 18 - 09:17 PM
Donuel 12 Sep 18 - 09:27 PM
Donuel 12 Sep 18 - 09:45 PM
Donuel 13 Sep 18 - 09:13 PM

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Subject: BS: I Survived the Warsaw Ghetto (93 yo)
From: robomatic
Date: 06 Sep 18 - 01:58 PM

Just saw this in the online Guardian. Don't know much about the Guardian, over 90% of my newspaper online quotes are from the New York Times. So I hope to the deity I'm not linking to a fake story. This gentleman, living in Israel now, shares his experiences from living through wartime Poland, the Warsaw Ghetto, and the fun times since. If you read the article, form your own judgment. I've done some reading on the multiple uprisings in Warsaw just prior to the Soviet 'rescue' and there were damn few survivors.

I'm only going to note a few things and maybe later I'll weigh in with more thoroughly detailed points.

I like his quote from Angela Merkel: “when the generation that survived the war is no longer here, we’ll find out whether we have learned from history”

which got me to this diversion: Merkel's quote reminded me of a quote:

"only the dead have seen the end of war."


which I could not place, so I found the above, which makes me believe I saw the quote in the beginning of Ridley Scott's movie "Blackhawk Down" based on the book by Mark Bowden. I'm about to digress so I'll quit now. Read the article by survivor Stanislaw Aronson. If it turns out he or his story are hokey I'll be back to loudly beat my breast until it is tenderized.


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Subject: RE: BS: I Survived the Warsaw Ghetto (93 yo)
From: bobad
Date: 06 Sep 18 - 02:27 PM

.....there were damn few survivors

My godfather was a survivor of the 1944 Warsaw uprising. Even though he had his right arm blown off below the elbow he didn't let that handicap him. He was an avid swimmer and skier and drove standard transmission MGs and Jaguars holding on to the steering wheel with his stump while shifting with his left hand.


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Subject: RE: BS: I Survived the Warsaw Ghetto (93 yo)
From: Donuel
Date: 06 Sep 18 - 02:41 PM

Too true.

Ive known the guardian for forty years and it has remained factual and true to what facists call the left.

The past has not passed in fact we are what the past left behind.

Eienstatzgruppen murdered my dad's family who did not flee.


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Subject: RE: BS: I Survived the Warsaw Ghetto (93 yo)
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Sep 18 - 03:14 PM

Well I've TAKEN The Guardian for well over forty years and it is in no way a paper of the left. For many years it supported the Libdems, not exactly a leftie party, ever. Currently, many of its regular columnists are vehement critics of Corbyn, including Hadley Freeman and Jonathan Freedland. See today's issue. The whole of the political spectrum is embraced in its op-ed pieces. It has never advocated voting Tory during my time, but that hardly makes it left-wing. It merely makes it not especially right-wing. News and comment are kept strictly separate, which means that its journalistic standards are way higher than, say, the Mail. And they always give really good, sympathetic coverage to Liverpool FC. A team known as the reds. :-)


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Subject: RE: BS: I Survived the Warsaw Ghetto (93 yo)
From: Donuel
Date: 06 Sep 18 - 03:32 PM

Steve can you see we agree?


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Subject: RE: BS: I Survived the Warsaw Ghetto (93 yo)
From: Joe Offer
Date: 06 Sep 18 - 03:42 PM

I have two favorite movies about WWII Warsaw, Roman Polanski's The Pianist (2002), and the more recent Zookeeper's Wife (2017) [although I liked the book better]. Jakob the Liar (1999) with Robin Williams is another very powerful movie.

But it was the last part of the Polanski film that struck me most. After years of hiding, the pianist finally hears an end to the bombing and gunfire outside his Warsaw hiding place. All he sees is rubble - by the end of the war, 85% of Warsaw had been destroyed.

My first trip to Poland was in July, 2005. I didn't sleep well after we landed in Warsaw, and I woke up before dawn. Rather than lie in bed awake, I decided to go out walking. I spent three hours walking in the early morning light of Warsaw, and the area where I walked seemed to have been there forever. I found out later that the normal-looking area where I walked, had been the Warsaw Ghetto. I saw little memorials here and there, but not really much to tell me that this had been the home of Warsaw's huge Jewish population.

Except for that silly Communist skyscraper in the center of town, most of Warsaw appears to have been restored to look like it did before the war. It's something how we can erase so much of the sorrow and suffering that has gone on before. In all of Poland, only Auschwitz is left to tell the tale.

-Joe-


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Subject: RE: BS: I Survived the Warsaw Ghetto (93 yo)
From: robomatic
Date: 06 Sep 18 - 09:53 PM

I visited Frankfurt in the 80s and while the rubble was long gone, they were doing a lot of old-style stone construction to put up the old buildings as much as possible to pre-war pride.
It was an impressive sight to behold. A movie not directly in Warsaw but involving the Soviet Union, Germans and Poles, that I associate with this era and these actions: "Europa Europa".

Meanwhile what little online online I've done seems to support with the Guardian story. What was puzzling to me was that basically no one survived the Warsaw Ghetto. But as I understand his story, he and his family were in the Ghetto, were separated. He was entrained for Auschwitz, escaped the train, and was taken on by the Polish, as in non-Jewish, partisans. Then he fought with them and fought in the Warsaw Uprising, not the Warsaw Ghetto Uprising uprising. It was terrible enough what with the Russians taking on observational status across the Vistula, Stalin ordering his forces not to aid the Poles. But there was a survival rate for the Poles, and that is apparently part of his story. But he never saw his family again.


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Subject: RE: BS: I Survived the Warsaw Ghetto (93 yo)
From: Joe Offer
Date: 06 Sep 18 - 11:07 PM

Hi, Robomatic -
At the end, the Germans either transported or shot everyone left living in the Warsaw Ghetto, but there were significant numbers of Jews who escaped from the Ghetto before the end. Many were helped by the Polish people of Warsaw. I understand this is something that did not happen very often in the rest of Poland, possibly because anti-Semitism was very strong in most parts of Poland outside Warsaw. I understand there were no Jews left in the Ghetto of Krakow by the end of the war.
-Joe-


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Subject: RE: BS: I Survived the Warsaw Ghetto (93 yo)
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 07 Sep 18 - 06:25 AM

My grandfather, a very religious russian orthodox who eventually became a priest, had a hand in helping the Jews in the Bialystok ghetto. Strange really seeing as he was brought up in pre-revolution Russia as a Cossack. Not exactly renowned for their Jewish sympathies!


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Subject: RE: BS: I Survived the Warsaw Ghetto (93 yo)
From: Donuel
Date: 08 Sep 18 - 04:46 PM

Robo I feel in my bones you are right
It can happen here
It starts with lieing with a smile and ends with killing in the name of ethnic purity as a means to take everything the chosen people have or would have had.


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Subject: RE: BS: I Survived the Warsaw Ghetto (93 yo)
From: robomatic
Date: 08 Sep 18 - 05:18 PM

If by 'here' you mean America I don't think it is at all likely. The reason it won't happen here is becuase it didn't happen here. My folks lived through the war years, more importantly the pre-war years when there was a lot of loud anti-semitism. My father even heard it among soldiers during the War. In mainland America we had Father Coughlin, Henry Ford, The American German Bund (before the War anyway), Charles Lindbergh, etc. There is nothing like that now, and Jews have been very pro-active about not only engaging the on the issue but in engaging the principle of the issue, protecting minorities and most importantly being inclusive with minorities into American life. Jews were in the forefront of the Civil Rights issue, as were many other religions and ethnicities. And Jews have made common cause to defend Muslims, LGBTQ, etc.
Furthermore, Americans have mainly been sympathetic to the underdog.
Not forgetting the Original Sins of Slavery and Aboriginal decimation. But we're getting around to them, too.


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Subject: RE: BS: I Survived the Warsaw Ghetto (93 yo)
From: Donuel
Date: 08 Sep 18 - 07:48 PM

When all the most unlikely circumstances line up it can still happen here. Vigilance remains necessary.
We do not need the old set of circumstances. We have the web and even the Bannon video games for the young.

We are An attack, a big lie, a pardon, a martyr, an assassination and a missing in action Congress away from an unlikely extremist dictator.
So we agree, however
I fear how vulnerable hypnotized people can become under special circumstances.

Things do not happen in linear order/ Its chaos or the 'unlikely rise' of the unlikely.
But I like your positive message.


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Subject: RE: BS: I Survived the Warsaw Ghetto (93 yo)
From: Donuel
Date: 09 Sep 18 - 12:05 PM

Not every thing old is new again but there are some

ICE is the new deportation Gestapo (papers please)
Free Speech is the enemy of the people is an old dictator lie
FOX-Sinclair media is the new Goebbels
Nazis claimed to be good loyal people is old
Purges are occurring in the Government and have decimated depts.
Attempt to control the Justice Department is like the old Hitler Courts
There is a new personality cult called Trumpism
This list can be extensive and I haven't even mentioned Bannon yet

We are fortunate Crises are only man made so far (except for hurricane) and have spared us.


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Subject: RE: BS: I Survived the Warsaw Ghetto (93 yo)
From: robomatic
Date: 09 Sep 18 - 06:51 PM

Don'l normally your scattershots of random stabs at wisdom-ism are easy to take, but I had a friend who used to send me postcards with the kind of stuff you put in your posts. It was light comedy in tone, he was a far better master of the limpid non-sequiter than you are.

It is not hypnotism. It is not the Gestapo. It's not like the old Nazi Hitler legal system.

This is America. The institutions are all in place. Conservatives are not Nazis. Even Republicans are not Nazis. FOX, well, yes, they are, except for Christopher Wallace.

It's plain old fashioned fear being sampled out in digital measures.

You are welcome of course to post this here and anywhere but I'd prefer it if you concentrate your artful stuff in your own threads as you normally do. Sorry to go old John McCain on you but your comments thus far are not your best work.


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Subject: RE: BS: I Survived the Warsaw Ghetto (93 yo)
From: robomatic
Date: 09 Sep 18 - 09:17 PM

I just heard this interview on NPR. Relatively young ex-NFL player ex-green beret talking about his team-mate Colin Kaepernick who was remaining seated during the National Anthem. Nate thought he should stand but suggested that Colin, if he was resolute in not standing, assume the 'take a knee' position, which showed respect. Which Colin did. This I had not known before.

And bless 'em, NPR went on with the interview and elicited a show of true understanding from Nate Boyer, a blend of tolerance, compassion, to go with the patriotism. The interview is just under ten minutes.

To my mind this interview bookends the article from the OP about Stanislaw Aronson. Old and young, European and American, sharing experiences of how bad it can really be out there. Both these guys have learned something and know how to put it into words.


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Subject: RE: BS: I Survived the Warsaw Ghetto (93 yo)
From: Donuel
Date: 12 Sep 18 - 09:27 PM

Whenever you drink you seem to go into your psychoanalysis of my rhetoric. Well with this memory of yours aside, listen up.
Fascism will not come from internment camps for immigrant children torn from Families.
Fascism will not come from a state sponsored Trump Youth.
Fascism will not come with familiar Hitler cruelty.
Fascism will not begin with an attack on Poland.
Fascism will not be introduced with tanks rolling down Constitution Ave. in a parade.


Fascism will come with a sarcastic smile and a chaotic TV show - It will arrive with lots of showmanship armed with billionaire owned think tanks. With a purge of our institutions that are criticized daily and a leader who relies upon himself for everything and protects his closed mind from facts, fascism will set a precedent that it has been in the White House recently.


RAGE RAGE RAGE
Against the dieing of Democracy.


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Subject: RE: BS: I Survived the Warsaw Ghetto (93 yo)
From: Donuel
Date: 12 Sep 18 - 09:45 PM

In America we faced 28 years of Another Bush or a Clinton (ugh) in 2016.
I held my nose and voted for the lesser of 2 'weevils' but many simply did not vote. Republicans have been handed 16 years of control by elections they lost in the popular votes. Maybe it takes a trump to wake the sleeping democratic dragon.


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Subject: RE: BS: I Survived the Warsaw Ghetto (93 yo)
From: Donuel
Date: 13 Sep 18 - 09:13 PM

Do not go gently into the polling booth


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Mudcat time: 23 September 1:56 PM EDT

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