BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!

Subject: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 08 Sep 18 - 11:40 AM

This theme is probably just as relevant in the US, so shoot, yanks, but it's come up big-time over here in the last day or two. We've had Vince Cable, the leader of the Liberal Democrats (a party deservedly trounced in the last two elections - without their propping up the Tories in a bogus coalition we probably wouldn't have had that disastrous referendum for starters) calling for a getting-together of moderate-minded people who are, in his mind, not too far left and not too far right (though mostly too far wrong), his own shrunken mob plus a few unnamed Tories and Blairites, to get together to form some sort of unspecified alliance that will "reclaim the centre ground." He daren't say "a new political party," because last time someone tried that they were promptly cast into undignified oblivion by the electorate. Yesterday, Tony Blair was lamenting the loss of the centre ground by the Labour Party as Corbyn takes control, and sort of insinuating the same thing as Vince. I mean, as if Blair, warmonger-in-chief and serial liar, not to speak of bed-poodle of Dubya's, would know anything about moderation... now we have disaffected old New Labour moaner, Chukka Ummuna, "beseeching" Corbyn to "call off the dogs" in order to prevent "centre left" (ha) people being deselected or leaving the party. What a laugh. It's been Chukka and his tawdry gang of yesterday's people who have BEEN the dogs for the last two years. Seems to me that these people will go to any lengths to unseat Jeremy, even to the extent of throwing at least the next election if not several more after that. Putting in the Tories, so good for the country. As someone said on the Any Answers phone-in today, the last Labour manifesto under Corbyn was exceptionally moderate. Hardly revolutionary stuff, and it was all costed. You couldn't make it up. Maybe I just have done...

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 08 Sep 18 - 11:46 AM

By the way, if anyone even THINKS of making this about a__is___tism, they'd better make sure first that they have easy and prompt access to someone who can cleanly and hygienically sew testicles back on...

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Donuel
Date: 08 Sep 18 - 12:08 PM

damn you are getting more cryptic than I ever was

I am expecting a double digit pendulum swing back to the left which is the true center if folks actually voted.

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: peteglasgow
Date: 08 Sep 18 - 12:09 PM

i just bumped into our mp in town - she's very down about the way things are going in westminster. i suspect she is upset by a different lot of labour members than i am but i like her and respect the job she is doing and we are both too diplomatic to fall out about it. if we can agree about the need to support the leader (and the party) despite being from different wings of the party it seems to me that we all should manage it. all labour mps were elected with corbyn as leader and with a good manifesto. i wouldn't be too upset if a few mps left the party ('bye frank!) and went the same way as the tory liberals but really support for the public services, some renationalisation and an ethical foreign is really a very modest starting point for a more decent society.

(by the way what happened to the new thread with the odd name - and what was that morrison's wine you were recommending there steve?)

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 08 Sep 18 - 12:19 PM

"...and what was that morrison's wine you were recommending there steve?"

Nero d'Avola. Just bought a bottle at Tesco for Mrs. Backwoodsperson - £5.00 a go.

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 08 Sep 18 - 12:25 PM

BWM. Tesco! How could you? £10 for 2 at Mossers and it all helps my bonus next year :-D

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 08 Sep 18 - 12:34 PM

Ha! Because I needed something specifically from Tesco. I spotted the Nero d'Avola as I passed the booze fixtures on the way to the checkout and, as it was pissing with rain, I couldn't be arsed to get wet walking across two car parks!

Sorry about your bonus - where do I send the 5p cheque? :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Jos
Date: 08 Sep 18 - 12:39 PM

My nearest Morrison's is an hour or more away by bus, a similar treck by combining train and walking, or about an hour and a half on foot, so if it is available at Tesco's it would be more convenient (apart from having to force myself to go to Tesco's). So before I attempt any of these, Backwoodsman: Is it oaky?

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 08 Sep 18 - 12:43 PM

Haven't opened it yet, and I don't do alcohol, so it'll have to wait until Mrs. Backwoodsperson gets a thirst on, Jos! Sorreeeeee! :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 08 Sep 18 - 12:52 PM

What were that motley crew called btw? SDP? Something like that? Was Shirley someoneoranother one of the founders?

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: robomatic
Date: 08 Sep 18 - 01:02 PM

Steve:
You'd be more convincing if you left existing threads alone instead of casting them aside when they no longer suited you. Maybe it's more about CONTROL Than AS for you...

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 08 Sep 18 - 01:09 PM

On shit. Another thread closer...

Anyway, what's this about a 5p bonus BWM? It won't be that much. This is a Yorkshire company tha' knows.

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 08 Sep 18 - 01:14 PM

I'll have a word with your boss, Dave! :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Raggytash
Date: 08 Sep 18 - 01:17 PM

Robomatic, Unfortunately the media in the UK have a massive impact, as I'm sure they do in the US of A.

Their impact on public opinion is out of all proportion to the numbers of people who actually own the outlets.

Sadly many people cannot read between the lines and believe the nonsense (that in many, many cases) that they are fed on a daily, monthly, weekly, annual basis.

The UK is a very, very wealthy country yet we have to have food banks to feed some of our population.

Those people are then castigated as inadequate because they cannot provide for themselves, there is something very wrong with a society that cannot (being very wealthy) provide for all it's population.

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 08 Sep 18 - 01:32 PM

Haven't a bloody clue what robo is talking about.

Tesco Nero d'Avola is ok but not in the same league. I say this whilst declaring that I have no affiliation with Dave... :-)

I note that the Tory on Any Questions asserted that Thatcher was centre-ground. Bwhahahaha!

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Sep 18 - 01:32 PM

Seems to me that Labour have no other choice than to rid themselves of the career dross if they are to provide the alternative policy Britain needs
If the membership can't decide Party policy, what's the point of having a Party?
A narrow (voting) majority to a decision which will effect every British citizen (probably adversely)
We are told that this is 'the peoples' will'and it would be undemocratic to interfere with that decision, yet they howl like banshees being shafted at the idea that a large political party majority should decide the direction a party should take, squealing about "balance" and "moderation"
The right had no compunction in leaving behind its socialist principles when Blair and his 'New Labour Louts' took over - we know how that turned out!
'Time for a change' - those who do't like it should piss of and shut the door behind them - it's not as if they'll be missed
Last chance saloon for Labour as far as I'm concerned

By the way Dave, not too "center" I hope
The trouble about being middle-of-the-road is you end up getting hit from traffic from both ways
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Sep 18 - 03:09 PM

Chukka Ummuna, "beseeching" Corbyn to "call off the dogs" in order to prevent "centre left" (ha) people being deselected or leaving the party.

Why the (ha) ?
He is talking for the Centre Left which is the majority of Labour MPs.
They do fear that they will be deselected if they do not pretend to believe in Far Left ideology. Three local parties have already passed votes of no confidence in Centre Left MPs to demonstrate that they have the numbers to do it.
Momentum are to try to get through conference a motion to make deselection easier.

Labour is being taken over by the Far Left and the existing MPs will not be allowed to get in the way.

Last time few joined SDP because their position in the party was not threatened. If they think they will be deselected anyway, they might as well jump.

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 08 Sep 18 - 03:54 PM

Your analysis is, as ever, total, utter, complete, ideological bollocks. You never have anything sensible to say about anything. Tell you summat. Local constituencies having the ability to deselect shitbag right-wing MPs who are pretending to be socialists whilst serially undermining the party leader, thereby threatening to put the Tories in, is just about as democratic as it gets. Unarguable. If you don't like what the majority of your fellow constituents are doing, well tuff titty. Start your own bloody party. But this is my party and you're not in it. If we're hung, drawn and quartered for what we do, that's our business, not yours, and it's what is commonly known as "democracy." Bugger off and start a thread on your favourite Tory/Ukip parties. I promise you that I'll get incredibly bored incredibly quickly. As a matter of fact, I'm already incredibly bored with you. Go and sing a shanty or ten is my advice.

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: peteglasgow
Date: 08 Sep 18 - 04:08 PM

while obviously everyone will have a different perspective on where the centre is or the left, there are some policies that regularly get the overwhelming support of the population - for example -

should our NHS (and education system) be properly funded and free from privatisation?
should we have more police on the streets?
should we renationalise the trains and the power companies?
is it shameful to have foodbanks, homelessness and 4 million hungry children in one of the richest countries of the world?
should human rights and workers' rights be protected and enhanced?

etc now it doesn't matter if you call these policies left, centre or whatever - they are just sensible policies that would be entirely mainstream in any other european country.

sadly we live in england where the same population seem to think we should always be ruled by toffs (even when it is clear that they havn't a clue) and we are quite partial to a bit of war and distrust/dislike of foreigners. we have also been taught to distrust the dangerous lefties even when they are proposing the sort of policies that we approve.

we're a bit shit really eh?

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: peteglasgow
Date: 08 Sep 18 - 04:11 PM

and what happened to that thread with the strange name? started off quite promising i thought

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Sep 18 - 04:23 PM

I agree Steve, but the constituency parties have been massively infiltrated by the Far-Left.
The old membership were perfectly happy with the Centre Left, but they have suddenly become the minority.

The Party has had a massive change imposed on it since Corbyn took over.
The existing MPs do not fit in any more. They will have to decide what to do.

It is going to be interesting. The Far Left have always been unelectable until now. Has that changed?
We will see.

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Sep 18 - 04:26 PM

Why do you have to be always so nasty Steve?
You people can not bare to be disagreed with on politics, however mildly.
I expect all the dogs will be on me soon.

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Donuel
Date: 08 Sep 18 - 04:38 PM

Politics is a hardball sport over here too.

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: peteglasgow
Date: 08 Sep 18 - 04:39 PM

some of us dogs have better things to do. though admittedly not much better.
what do the old right/left terms mean any more? i thought we were on to 'open' and 'closed' minded people these days. some people try to stay open and interested and positive towards progress and other people. while some are little englander tories and ukipper type bigots. we are all a bit divided these days,eh?

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 08 Sep 18 - 04:53 PM

Chukka usually talks some sense, but on this I don't know what he is on about. People at risk of deselection, and rightly so, are the likes of Field, Stringer and Hoey, brexit apologists propping up the tories. And Joan Ryan who is trying to equate being anti-Israel with being antisemitic. I do not know of any genuine moderates facing deselection.

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: peteglasgow
Date: 08 Sep 18 - 04:58 PM

nor do i (shock! horror! socialists are tired of being represented by tories!)but i think this story will be the next stick to beat the labour party with now the steam is running out on all that anti-semitic nonsense.

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 08 Sep 18 - 06:26 PM

"I agree Steve, but the constituency parties have been massively infiltrated by the Far-Left.
The old membership were perfectly happy with the Centre Left, but they have suddenly become the minority"

Tough shit. It's not your party. You've spent years opposing everything about the Labour Party and I for one am bloody sick of it. Join the party and fight the good fight from within, but don't come here spouting your arrant sanctimonious rubbish. It's my party. I don't like everything my party does and I don't like everybody in it. But it's my party and if I don't like something I'll fight it from within, and I do. Toddle off and lionise your own bloody parties, which we know, in spite of your lying protestations, are, in sentiment, UKIP, the Tories and God knows who else on the right. You are totally obsessed with dissing Labour. It's a sort of medical issue with you. A bit psychological. A bit unhealthy. A bit diseased. There must be better things you can do with your rather sheltered suburban life (and I know Hertford rather well, before you protest). Go and sing your shanties down those Hertford pubs I happen to know. Jayz, I even spent B&B nights in some of those you sing your stuff in. My in-laws still live there. Christ, for all I know they may be unfortunate enough to be your next-door neighbours. They'll love you there. Just don't mention politics, otherwise you'll be out on your arse. It's a bit conservative with a small c round here in Kernow, but you wouldn't last two minutes here with your sick attitude.

And this post isn't nasty. It's advisory.

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Sep 18 - 06:30 PM

It's pretty futile asking people who express Islamophobic views in the form of "cultural implants" (quotes available on request) or support the selling of fighter planes to terrorist states who use them on third world impoverished people (quotes available on request, or who have defended Tory paedofiles and sex pests (quotes available on request) or described Irish children as having been brainwashed (quotes available on request) or described Northern Irish sectarian marches as "pleasant days out (quotes available on request) or blamed three days of Northern Ireland rioting on schoolchildren (quotes available on request), or described travellers as "slave owners" (quotes available on request)...... or expressed some of the most extreme views ever expressed on this forum (quotes available on request)..... to desist from using terms like "extreme left...
It is eequally futile to ask such people exactly what they mean by "extreme left"

CAN I PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE ASK THAT, UNLESS THEY ARE HELL BENT ON GETTING YET ANOTHER THREAD CLOSED, CAN THEY PLEASE NOT RESPOND TO THIS PROVOCATIVE LANGUAGE

Surely we've all learned our lesson by now?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 08 Sep 18 - 06:34 PM

Well in that case, bobad, you and robocop are up shit creek without a paddle. I know nothing about what mods shut what threads, I did not communicate and, frankly, I don't give a stuff, as it's their gig, not mine. You could always ask them instead of making stupid smears. Your call, old bean.

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 08 Sep 18 - 06:43 PM

Well, I hoped it wouldn't get too nasty too soon, but the usual clowns, as ever, have swanned in with their nonsense. Hey, "usual clowns!" So much better than "usual suspects!"

I wonder whether anyone thinks that a new "centre party" would (a) survive for more than six months, (b) wouldn't propel the Tories in for at least ten more years? And is there any such thing as "centre ground" anyway?

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 08 Sep 18 - 07:25 PM

"Chukka usually talks some sense, but on this I don't know what he is on about. People at risk of deselection, and rightly so, are the likes of Field, Stringer and Hoey, brexit apologists propping up the tories. And Joan Ryan who is trying to equate being anti-Israel with being antisemitic. I do not know of any genuine moderates facing deselection."

Absolutely right, David. And why should anyone see anything sinister in constituency parties having the power to get shot of MPs who they see as no longer representing their interests? I call that the very epitome of democracy!

When I was a member of East London Teachers Association, a local branch of the NUT, in the seventies, our meetings were attended, in spite of our efforts to get people involved, by barely enough members to get a quorum. When you think of those times, when the economy was a shambles and education cuts were savage, you'd have thought that teachers would get themselves involved in the fightback. But they left it to us lefties to do the dirty work. We had Blair Peach in our branch, a man I loved dearly (and downed many a pint with!), as well as a few other great people whose interest was the children in our deprived schools and the working conditions of their teachers. We were hard left but we practised absolutely no hard left shit, ever. But the thing is that a bare quorum of members could decide the branch policy. We knew it wasn't good, but, if the vast majority of your union members were members "in case there was trouble and you needed the insurance," you were not going to get them to be all radical and change the world. You don't get to studiously avoid your democratic rights then moan when things haven't gone your way. Tough shit.

So I don't give a flying fart for those whose life's work is to criticise Labour from outside. I really don't want to know. I know all too well what Labour's issues are. But I'll tackle them from within and I don't need non-Labour arseholes like Keith, with his agenda, making "helpful" suggestions.

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 08 Sep 18 - 07:36 PM

I think its pretty obvious Labour is in one of its depressive self-harming moods.

And as with people, theres not much you can say that will influence their behaviour. Logic doesn't come into it.

Head in the hands, and weep maybe....?

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Sep 18 - 04:00 AM

"I think its pretty obvious Labour is in one of its depressive self-harming moods."
I'm sorry Al -
I've always respected you and thought you a fairly progressive bloke
Why are you siding with these people and joining in their kicking the only party that promises anything resembling a change for the better ?
What exact do you expect from Labour ?
Corby and his supporters are by no means my ideal of what is needed to change the dismal state that Britain has been reduced to by decades of extreme right-wing politics.
We lost the vote on Brexit because an extremist right wing group played to the worst aspects of the British people - its Xenophobia.
Immediately there was a sharp rise in racist incidents
When Trump was elected, with his contempt for women, his racism and his meglomanis, the swing to the right spread all over Europe - even liberal Sweden, for christ's salke

Britain has a racist foreign secretary a deeply divided Government who has bunged a sectarian party with terrorist connections £1 billion of your money in order to stay in power and a potential leadership waiting in the wings in the form of Johnson and Rees Mogg who are likely to return the country back to the political Stone-Age
The right wing press has been mounting attacks on Corbyn since he first appeared on the scene because they have the intelligence to realise he poses a threat to their right-wing privileged world
He is considered a threat by one (nameless) foreign power that that have spent time, money and effort to infiltrate the Labour Party in order to unseat a democratically-elected leader - their interference in British politics is comparable to Putin's blogging of the British referendum and American Presidential election.

Yet you think "Labour is in one of its depressive self-harming moods."
What do you expect of Labour and why do you not express the same antipathy towards those who are wrecking Britain
As far as I am concerned, at least it is making a stand against the appalling place Britain is in danger of becoming
Whose side are you on Al- what should Labour be doing?

As far as the rest of you are concerned
Several times in the past mods have warned us "don't feed the trolls if you don't want threads to be closed down" - Jeri springs to mind as having said that on a number of occasions.
These trolls have no regard for Britain or its people - they are extremists who have gone along with everything I have described above - they have gone even further with their extremism
This is what makes their accusations of Labour having been "massively infiltrated by the Far-Left" so ****** ludicrous
If people who do care wish to continue this discussion, for crying out loud, heed the advice of the mods STOP FEEDING THE TROLLS OTHRWISE YOU ARE GOING TO BE STUCK WITH THEM FOREVER - IGNORE THEM!!!
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Iains
Date: 09 Sep 18 - 04:17 AM

The proof of the pudding is in the ballot box. Everything else is just hot air. It seems to me Labour need to be taught to play happy families, before they self destruct. As an opposition party they are a joke. For a political party they appear to have fractured into a series of cliques with each trying to achieve dominance no matter what the cost to the party or its supporters. Whether they inhabit the center, left, hard left, or extreme left is irrelevant. What is entirely relevant is what the perpetual infighting is doing to the fan base,
The old labour heartlands that voted for brexit want their party to reflect their views. The nu labour adherents have a very different agenda and ideology. The presence of unite and momentum is merely pouring buckets of sand in a finely tuned gearbox. And Corbyn presides over the entire sorry mess. What a joke!
It will not be an election next time around,it will be a massacre.(snigger,snigger)

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 Sep 18 - 04:51 AM

Steve, I was not complaining about what is happening.
Merely making observations and repeating the complaints of many within your party who have been in your party their whole adult lives and not just recently entered on Corbyn's coat tails like you and the people who are taking over the constituency parties from long term party workers.

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 09 Sep 18 - 05:02 AM

Tell you what, Jim. When you stop feeding the trolls, I think many others will. Until then I shall try to remind you of your sound advice when you react to them. Deal?

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Sep 18 - 05:17 AM

When you stop feeding the trolls, I think many others will
Am I some sort os a Messiah Dave - I realse I'm as bad as the rest f you
Let's all treat these people with the contempt they deserve

Meanwhile - back at the House
Perhaps this is an example of how responsible Government should behave to earn their tax paid salaries - waddya think?
Chortle, chortle, chortle
Jim

From this morning's Sunday Times
UK GOVERNMENT IN CIVIL WAR OVER ‘DIRTY DOSSIER’ ON BORIS JOHNSON
Tim Shipman Political Editor
The Tory party was plunged into a bitter civil war over dirty tricks last night after it was revealed that Theresa May’s aides drew up a dos¬sier on Boris Johnson’s sex life in an apparent effort to prevent him from becoming prime minister.
The document, passed to The Sunday Times by a Conservative source, contains a catalogue of lurid allegations about Johnson’s sexual liaisons, quips from him about cocaine, and damning assessments of his character.
The 4,000-word “war book” began circulating in Westminster last week, just hours before it was revealed that Johnson and his sec¬ond wife, Marina Wheeler, had separated and were divorcing.
The document was drawn up by one of May’s aides during the Con¬servative leadership election in 2016 when Johnson was seen as her fiercest rival. It was not used because his campaign imploded.
The dossier was passed to this newspaper three days after two sources claimed that “black ops” attacks on Johnson were planned because he is leading opposition to May
He had an affair with the journalist Anna Fazackerley “on one occasion visiting both her and Petronella Wyatt on the same night”.
The paper was drawn up by Nick Hargrave, who served as deputy head of May’s policy unit at No 10 before joining the Portland PR firm last autumn. Hargrave’s name is listed as the original author in the document’s data files but there is no suggestion he was involved in distributing it.
A senior Tory who received the paper last week said: “This was put together by May’s team to smear Boris. It’s their ‘war book’on him.”
A senior aide to the prime minister denounced what he called “an absolutely shocking and quite outrageous attempt” to smear May’s team and the Tory party chairman, Brandon Lewis. “It is genuinely offensive and categorically untrue that we have done anything to update this document. The suggestion this was circulated, updated or briefed in any way by CCHQ or No 10 is a lie.”
That leaves open the possibility that the dossier was circulated by another leadership rival.
Details of the dossier and fresh infighting came amid claims an ally of Johnson’s was forced out of CCHQ this year as a result of her links to cabinet Brexiteers.
Carrie Symonds, the party’s former communications head, left this summer. A plan to send her to the Foreign and Commonwealth Office to
work with Johnson was scrapped.
The Sunday Times can also reveal Johnson ditched plans to support a rival Brexit plan drawn up by hardline MPs after learning it had “mad” plans for a post-Brexit government to build a “Star Wars”-style missile shield to protect the UK from nuclear attack and an “expeditionary force” to defend the Falklands. Leaked sections of the paper reveal the European Research Group, led by Jacob Rees-Mogg, also wants to slash income tax and VAT on domestic fuel after Brexit.
Hargrave confirmed he had written the Boris dossier: “During the course of the 2016 Conservative leadership campaign, I was responsible for desk research,” he said. “Notes on opposing candidates are a fairly standard practice. I no longer work in politics and am thankfully no longer involved in the twists and turns of party leadership matters. I have been on honeymoon for most of the past fortnight.”
A source close to Lewis said he had “no knowledge” of the dossier until yesterday.
“Somebody is making mischief,” she added.

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 09 Sep 18 - 05:45 AM

My wife can not conceive of a reason why any woman would want to engage in an 'affair' with (in her words) 'a fat, ugly, repulsive waste of protoplasm' - unless, of course, he's hung like a donkey.

There must be some desperate women hanging around Westminster and its environs.

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Iains
Date: 09 Sep 18 - 05:51 AM

Meanwhile back in the real world Jeremy of the allotment is under investigation by the Parliamentary ethics watchdog. Tsk, Tsk.


https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/ethics-watchdog-to-investigate-jeremy-corbyn-for-overseas-visits-3dg2t66pj

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Sep 18 - 06:04 AM

"There must be some desperate women hanging around Westminster and its environs."
Can't think of a more derperate than the one who is happy to bung a terrorist party £1 billion of the taxpayers money to stay in office
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 09 Sep 18 - 06:06 AM

Agreed Jim. But desperation comes (see what I did there?) in many forms! ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 Sep 18 - 06:08 AM

"As an opposition party they are a joke."

As an opposition party, against all the odds and against all predictions, they wiped out May's parliamentary majority. They did that by fighting a responsible election campaign with a moderate and well-costed manifesto, which they spent the campaign promoting, discussing the issues facing the country without making it personal. Whereas your Tory party* spent seven weeks discussing next to nothing about the interests of the country, instead mounting a concerted, abusive and very personal vendetta against Corbyn, in league with the gutter press, of course. And look where it got them. So I say to all your brainless Jeremy-bashers, keep it up. The people in this country have little tolerance for your personal abuse and will judge you to be petulant, insecure fools who can't address the urgent issues facing the country and who couldn't run a chip shop. You just never learn, do you?


*Please accept my profuse and unreserved apologies if, in fact, you voted UKIP or, come to think of it, forgot there was an election on and didn't vote at all.

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 09 Sep 18 - 06:09 AM

Jim - I respect you a great deal.

You always seem to me to see things with a sort of moral squint though. And whilst you couldn't start a fight in an empty house, I sometimes think of what my old sociology studies told me - three men living on island would constitute a society. And I think to myself - if Jim was one of those men, it would be a divided society.

I remember 1970 when Heath won the election. The silly cunt had promised the Yanks to send our troops over to Vietnam in support of our greatest ally. Luckily he didn't get his way over that.

That year though, they totalled up the votes and Labour had actually got more votes than the tories. But because of the first past the post system   The tories got to run the government. three day weeks. The city of Birmingham closed down four days a week. Brilliant! But nobody bitched about it. We had stuck to the rules had an election by the agreed democratic method and everybody just got on with it, whatever the fuck. That's how law abding societies conduct themselves.

Compare and contrast with the Brexit business. Your arguments failed to impress - over a million people more thought you were mistaken in your views. Many of them, like Dennis (the beast of Bolsover) who represnnted towns that had been well and truly fucked over by the EU.

And yet you say they are villains. No other explanation. Corbyn's critics - villains the lot of them.


And I say to you. All these people are not villains. They merely have a different view of socialism and its moral imperatives than you do. And if you wish to beat the tories at any point in the forseeable future - accomodate, compromise, reconcililiate,

The tory party carries its own self destruct button. It is in the hands of greedy capitalists and occasionally, people get pissed off with being robbed and vote Labour.

The cheap membership deal has let in the trots. The ones who let in Thatcher by not allowing Callaghan to make a single uninterrupted campaign speech. They have nothing but contempt for the party we have voted all our lives for. Corbyn dun that. That's been his major screw up, and it will take a strong determined leader to make us electable again.

Boris's shagging schedule will not win this next election for us. Sadly. if that's all it took.....

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 09 Sep 18 - 06:15 AM

James O'Brien's usual incisive view on Bozo's inability to keep his prick in his trousers....

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 09 Sep 18 - 06:32 AM

"Many of them, like Dennis (the beast of Bolsover) who represnnted towns that had been well and truly fucked over by the EU"

The mining communities were 'fucked over' by two politically-opposed individuals - The Beast of Grantham and The Ginger Comb-Over - who engaged in a war of ideologies, using the miners as ammunition.

Absolutely FUCK ALL to do with the EU, which didn't exist at the time of the miners' strike nor during the ensuing pit closure programme.

You've really got to stop this nonsense - you won, get the fuck over it.

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 Sep 18 - 06:33 AM

600,000 trots, Al? Cor, when's the revolution!

Stuff 'n' nonsense, Al. Even if it were true, which it isn't, what would you do about it? Change the rules so that only nice ex-Blairites could join?

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 09 Sep 18 - 06:38 AM

And, before you start wittering on about the fishing industry, the first cod war began in 1958, fifteen years before we joined the Common Market, and the third cod war ended in 1976, three years after we joined. The cod wars were the death knell for the U.K. fishing industry - nothing to do with the EU.

You won, get over it.

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 09 Sep 18 - 06:43 AM

Am I some sort os a Messiah

He's not the Messiah. He's a very naughty boy :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Iains
Date: 09 Sep 18 - 06:44 AM

Deep mining had been declining in the UK for decades before Thatcher came along, as has been pointed out many times. The largest drop was 1960-1970 where numbers dropped 317000(>50% drop) Six years of that decade under a labour watch. And was it not Wilson promised the white heat of technology would guarantee work for all?
For as long as Labour runs on ideology instead of pragmatism, it is doomed.

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Sep 18 - 07:03 AM

"The cheap membership deal has let in the trots. "
Do you actually believe this medu#ia shit Al - do you have any evdence that these accuastions have any reality beyongd the pages of the Daily Wail and The Scum - if so - where is there any sign of anybody expounding the Theories of 'Permanent Revolution' or 'Socialism in one county - or anny of the policies Trotskyism is renowned for?
Shame on you
It is a right wing slogan - nothing more
Corbyn attracted thousands of new members on the basis of moderate socialist policies - he offered an alternative that Britain desperately needed
If you care to scan the net, you will find that Trotskyism, pretty much like Communism, has pretty well disappeared from teh English scene
First antisemitism, then trotskyism
You've really fallen for media nonsense hook line and sinker
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Iains
Date: 09 Sep 18 - 07:03 AM

And for those that argue coalmining was targeted by politicos instead of rank economics let me point out that In the US mining employment was 50,000 in 2015, down from 823000 in 1923. In Germany 610,000 were employed in the mines in 1977, the figure was well under 50,000 in recent years.

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 Sep 18 - 07:05 AM

Under Blair, the NHS and schools system did relatively well, far better than before or since. Pragmatism. Under Blair, foreign policy was such a disaster that we're now having to fight off terrorism at every turn, not to speak of the turmoil fomented by the Blair/Bush axis in many countries. Ideology. Just show us for once that you actually understand politics and that you acknowledge that the world isn't black and white. Incidentally, the country is falling apart at the seams right now because two different ideologies in your Tory party are ripping the party apart and ignoring the running of the country. Nobody knows how to fiddle while Rome burns like the Tories do.

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Iains
Date: 09 Sep 18 - 07:22 AM

"Nobody knows how to fiddle while Rome burns like the Tories do."

But if you want the master class, study the antics of labour!

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 09 Sep 18 - 07:36 AM

I can remember them saying in 1979...

Labour and Tories...its like a choice between clap and VD.

That's how they view our party. I recognise the mindset. So should you.

That's why the Brexit debate got so poisonous. Its that whiff of extremism. Extreme hatred for another point of view....over what...some recondite points of economics that virtually no one understands.

Theres civilised debate, and theres treading in dogshit. They each have a unique bouquet. very recognisable.

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 09 Sep 18 - 07:36 AM

I can remember them saying in 1979...

Labour and Tories...its like a choice between clap and VD.

That's how they view our party. I recognise the mindset. So should you.

That's why the Brexit debate got so poisonous. Its that whiff of extremism. Extreme hatred for another point of view....over what...some recondite points of economics that virtually no one understands.

Theres civilised debate, and theres treading in dogshit. They each have a unique bouquet. very recognisable.

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Sep 18 - 07:56 AM

I was involved in protests about rising youth unemployment in the mid sixties - local Labour#r Party members organised a lobby o#f Parliament on the issue
I was appointed spokesman and gave my name to the feller on the door - eventually my name was called and I was invited up to speak to my MP - The Prime Minister, Harold Wilson - what a mealy-mouthed prick!!!
He was the one who started the rot - he gradually removed socialism from the Labourr agenda and got rid of all the enthusiastic youngsters from the party - referring to them as 'hotheads - eventually 'Trotskyist' took over

Compared to the garbage that eventually took over, Wilson was a hero of the revolution

I'm afraid that, in attacking the Labour Party you find yourself in the company of Tommy Robinson wannabes
I hope you've got a long spoon for that particular mad-hatters tea party Al
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 Sep 18 - 07:57 AM

Do you actually believe this medu#ia shit Al - do you have any evdence that these accuastions have any reality

We have the word of quite a lot of long-standing Labour MPs and peers.

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 Sep 18 - 08:04 AM

Guardian/Observer March 2017.
"A hard-left plot by supporters of Jeremy Corbyn to seize permanent control of the Labour party and consolidate their power by formally joining forces with the super-union Unite can be revealed by the Observer.
The plans, described on Saturday by Labour’s deputy leader Tom Watson as “entryism” and a covert attempt by a leftwing faction to take over the party, were spelled out in detail by Jon Lansman, the founder of the grassroots organisation Momentum, who was secretly recorded addressing supporters at a meeting of a new branch of the organisation in Richmond, south London, on 1 March.
Labour’s reinvention needs to come from the bottom up
Deborah Hermanns
Read more

On the tape, obtained by the Observer, Lansman issues a call to arms to Momentum supporters, saying they need to make sure the left is far better represented in key positions at all levels of the party so they have control over the levers of power when Corbyn departs and the succession is decided.
Most controversially, Lansman says that if his ally Len McCluskey secures re-election as general secretary of Unite in an internal election next month, the super-union will then link directly to Momentum by formally affiliating to it, in what critics fear would amount to a massive shift of power and financial resources to the pro-Corbyn left."

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/mar/18/secret-tape-reveals-momentum-plot-to-link-with-unite-seize-control-of-labour

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Iains
Date: 09 Sep 18 - 08:08 AM

Keep on feeding Tommy Robinson with the oxygen of publicity. How many threads have you now infested with him? Are you a closet admirer? Keep up the fine work!

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 Sep 18 - 08:23 AM

VD IS clap, Al.

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Sep 18 - 08:26 AM

"How many threads have you now infested with him? "
About as many as you have supported his filth
No pasarán!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 Sep 18 - 08:37 AM

More from Labour MP Chuka Umunna,
"He said Labour now clearly fitted “the definition of institutional racism as outlined by Sir William Macpherson in the Macpherson report”.
Umunna said: “It’s very painful for me to say that. Part of the reason that I joined the Labour party, that my family supported the party, was because it was an anti-racist party. I think the failure to deal with the racism that is antisemitism is particular, and clearly is a problem.”

The Streatham MP, one of the leading backbenchers from the party’s centre-left, previously said people with his views were being forced out of Labour under Jeremy Corbyn, and he urged the leader to “call off the dogs”. "
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/sep/09/chuka-umunna-labour-is-institutionally-racist

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Sep 18 - 08:40 AM

ANOTHER OWN GOAL FOR WESTMINSTER DISUNITED
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Sep 18 - 08:40 AM

ANOTHER OWN GOAL FOR WESTMINSTER DISUNITED
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 Sep 18 - 09:13 AM

This is not about antisemitism. Sod off, you mad obsessive, and start your own thread.

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Iains
Date: 09 Sep 18 - 09:16 AM

"About as many as you have supported his filth"
of course asking you to support such an accusation with hard facts derived from any of my postings would be a step too far for jimmy. Just keep vomiting your bile everywhere just like your ludicrous assertion about me closing oven doors on a recently closed thread.
Do you ever think before you post? Anyone else suggesting such a thing would be immediately censured. Why not you?

Why rely on facts when you can just make it up?

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 09 Sep 18 - 09:19 AM

I'm not attacking the Labour Party. More sort of lamenting it.

BWM - the EU decided that we couldn't susidise our industries in the way we decided on doing in Labour government after the war. So unfair to our poor EU rivals. We are led to believe - they did not find ways of supporting their industries. And some idiots believe that.

28% of manufacturing industry gone in a single year.

The resultant drop in demand for steel and coal did have some slight effect on the situation.

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Iains
Date: 09 Sep 18 - 09:25 AM

Yes a good description. Jim is a mad obsessive. Not often I agree with you steve.

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 Sep 18 - 09:29 AM

Why don't you and Keith behave yourselves for once? It was LOVELY here when you were both missing. LOVELY. You clearly have nothing to say about the subject of the thread, so why don't you just say NOTHING?

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Iains
Date: 09 Sep 18 - 09:51 AM

Well if discussion revolved around facts and discussion of facts or even differing interpretation of facts the world would be a happier place. But there are some that only understand a part of an argument, take the wrong end of the stick, have a totally erroneous take on what was actually said and fire off the hip without further thought, while hurling insults with gay abandon. Then when corrected either try to play the little innocent, or take off again on a tangent. Those that insist on merely stirring the pot should not be surprised when it boils over.

When you reach a state of perfection shaw, you can attempt to lecture me. It is a breath of fresh air the odd occasions you are offline.
Take another holiday.

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Sep 18 - 09:51 AM

"would be a step too far for jimmy|"
Your crudely brutish language would be enough but there you go
TFrom: Iains - PM
Date: 07 Sep 18 - 01:51 PM
Tommy Robinson is as entitled to free speech as you are.

I'll dig out your gloatingly posting up the petition for freeing him from prison if you insist
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Iains
Date: 09 Sep 18 - 10:07 AM

Under British Law he is as entitled to free speech as you are. Like you he is also liable for the consequences of his speeches, just as you are on a forum. Incidentally Ireland has far more control over internet submissions than the US. you need to be careful of those oven slammer accusations.

As usual you cannot understand what is being said. Try thinking before posting.

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 Sep 18 - 10:13 AM

Steve,
You clearly have nothing to say about the subject of the thread, so why don't you just say NOTHING?

I have only quoted long-serving Labour MPs talking about the current issue within yours and their party.
What is your objection to that?
How is their testimony not relevant to the subject of this thread that you started?

The fact is that you Hard-Left extremists will tolerate no view that differs from your own narrow and extreme ideology.

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Sep 18 - 10:24 AM

"Under British Law he is as entitled to free speech as you are."
You were campaigning for him to be freed from Jal after he had been imprisoned for attempting to influence a trial
He is a piece of fascist scum with a record of hate activity as lng as your arm - and attempted to pin antisemitism on The labour party
Think before you deny
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Sep 18 - 10:44 AM

Incidentally
On the earlier thread you were attempting to pin antisemitism on the Labour Party
Tommy Robinson is an Antisi#emite who has belongs to several Anti Semitic Parties and is co-operating with European Anti semo#itic rallies
If you are so concerned about the welfare of the Jewish People,why are you defending this piece of shit
On this thread, you are attacking the Labour Party for extremism
Tommy Robinson is a notorious extremist who has not only been a member of extremist parties but has helped to set up at least two
You are still defending him while attacking the Labour Party
No need to underland where you stand regarding extremism
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Iains
Date: 09 Sep 18 - 10:45 AM

Provide evidence I was campaigning for him to be released from jail.
I was merely advocating he was to be treated the same as anybody else.
The fact he has been released on bail pending an appeal suggests that he was not given due process but was tried and sentenced with unseemly haste.

Keep giving the man more oxygen! are you sure you do not support him?

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 09 Sep 18 - 10:58 AM

The Idiot-Boy-Trolls have got y'all going again!
For fuck's sake, how many more times? DON'T. FEED. THE. TROLLS!

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 Sep 18 - 11:02 AM

Do as you are told Jim!
Are you a member of the gang or not?

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: peteglasgow
Date: 09 Sep 18 - 11:13 AM

there are a few people in my local labour party branch who have joined fairly recently having been party members in the past. we are all 50= and suport the labour party. for myself i feel this may be my last chance to see a government that isn't dominated by tory ideas and offers a more hopeful and progressive agenda. we have been very careful to give long standing members all due respect for their efforts and they have been very friendly and accepting of us new members (though we all wish more younger folk would turn up to meetings and get involved) our branch meetings are more lively each month and there is really no animosity. our MP is in the shadow cabinet - doing her 3rd job for Jeremy Corbyn and is very hard working and popular in the area (which is leave supporting with plenty of problems with tommy robinson types) she is (eg) pro nuclear and trident which many of us do not support but she is clearly a good person working hard for a labour government. she has our full support.   

now, i'm not saying that this is the picture all over the country - i've heard you southern types get up to all sorts of nonsense - but it is true here.

when i read some of the drivel in the press and see it's worst excesses echoed in some of the posts here - well, you are in a nasty fantasy land of your own invention. you can of course, continue to see the worst in everyone but it won't make you happy. or fair. or respected.

really, come on people - i love a political debate but isn't it time to be a bit more considerate and well-mannered? peace man! or men. and women (obviously)

lastly could i just ask those to who comment on us labour party members to say what they know of their local branches? how often do they go to meetings? or just why do they imagine that people who do make an effort are all trotskyite racists?

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Iains
Date: 09 Sep 18 - 11:27 AM

Jimmy this is you!
But there are some that only understand a part of an argument, take the wrong end of the stick, have a totally erroneous take on what was actually said and fire off the hip without further thought, while hurling insults with gay abandon.

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 09 Sep 18 - 11:29 AM

I did say I would remind you, Jim. Don't feed the trolls!

Back to the discussion though. How is it that Labour, a left wing party, can be infiltrated by the left wing? Where were all these people who now wish to stop the left wing takeover when the right wing surreptitiously took over the Labour party? Little wonder that they are now running scared and doing their best to detail the journey back to where it should be. How come they are not worried about the Tory party being taken over by neo-nazis and racists? May I suggest it is because that is what they want...

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 09 Sep 18 - 11:33 AM

Detail should of course read derail.

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 09 Sep 18 - 11:47 AM

Of course, and as I've said before elsewhere, an individual's perception of another's political position depends greatly on the position the perceiver starts from. So, to Right-Wing Extremists like our resident trolls, to whom their own Right-Wing views are regarded as 'the norm', anyone of the centre might well appear to be Far-Left.

Hence the spectacle of The Troll of Hereford, despite my having explained my centre-ground Liberal/Lib-Dem voting record at every election of every kind since 1965, my one-time membership of the party, and being given my reasons for voting Labour since being betrayed by the Lib-Dems in 2010, shreiking like some demented fishwife that I'm 'a liar', and that I'm a 'Far-Left Extremist'

Which, of course, says far more about him, and about his own Far-Right Extremist starting position than it says about me.

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 09 Sep 18 - 11:48 AM

Hereford should, of course, be Hertford. Bloody iPad predictive text!

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 09 Sep 18 - 11:59 AM

Hurricanes hardly ever happen there, at least none are predicted...

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 Sep 18 - 12:02 PM

Funny innit. Old Atlee is now revered as the founder of the welfare state, the NHS and many another Good Thing, and if it moved he nationalised it. If Jeremy Corbyn suggested doing a quarter of what Atlee did they'd put him on the next boat to Russia. Yet Atlee is revered whereas poor old Jezza is attacked from all sides, Tories, Libdems, half of his own parliamentary party, Trump, Jews, Bibi, Daily Mail and ten others - then Chukka tells HIM to call off HIS dogs! Of all that lot, the Labour MPs are by far the worst. They might as well just hand the keys to Number Ten to the Tories right now and tell them it's theirs for fifteen more years. They don't care whether the Tories get in - which means they don't give a stuff for the ordinary people of this country. Those are the people who brainless Keith loves to quote. Yet they are the ones who are likely to condemn the ordinary people of this country to hardship for a generation. They are the real ideologues in all this, not Corbyn. If they threw in the towel and worked with Corbyn with a will instead of looking for sticks to beat him with, we'd have that "centre ground" all to ourselves. He was democratically elected and he increased our membership by half a million. He kicked Theresa May in the nuts last year and he can do it again, bigger and better next time. In fact, the more the Tories and their online poodles such as our two Usual Clowns think that they can get him with their attack dogs, the mightier he's likely to become. Bring it on!

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Sep 18 - 12:09 PM

"The Idiot-Boy-Trolls have got y'all going again!"
Nash - I'm trying to cut an acre of wet grass and I thought I'd take on something easy during the breaks
If I were a believer I would have forgiven God for creating evil people because he carefully made them all stupid
Why does the phrase "can't walk and chew gum at the same time" keep springing to mind, I wonder

"Hurricanes hardly ever happen"
In "In Hertford, Hereford, and Hampshire halfwits quite often happen, it would appear
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Sep 18 - 12:56 PM

Incidentally Ians
The man you have claimed shoult have the right to free speech

From the Breivik killings reportage

"Paul Ray of The Knights Templars and ex member of the English Defence League has not only claimed that he was in touch with Breitvik, but also said he (Ray) provided the inspiration for the bombing - can't get any closer to a claim of responsibility than that.
On Brite who has been in contact with Breitvik via a psuedo-military chat site on the Net, in one memorable quote, says "he seemed like a nice bloke.
"why have there been no claims from the racists who wish to bring this topic to the fore and see an end to immigration from muslim countries?"
"Leader of the league, Tommy Robinson condemns the killings "but he does not want to decry the beliefs that led to Breivik's actions.... "the slaughter might wake Europeans up"
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Raedwulf
Date: 09 Sep 18 - 12:59 PM

Mmmm… I'm not a Labour voter, I'm not an Anyone voter, because I'm dreadfully cynical. I vote Green as a protest vote, knowing that FPTP means my vote is & always has been meaningless. I can happily vote Green knowing they will never stand a chance. If I thought they did, I would reconsider because, their environmentalism aside, they esposuse the old-school Socialism that Steve might still believe in, but I never did, and certainly not in the modern global world.

I don't vote LAB, I don't vote CON. If I don't have GRE on the ballot paper, I don't normally vote at all. The best you can hope for from me is that I vote AGAINST someone. And that some voters think that way ought to be a fairly damning condemnation of what we have. All that aside, I can't improve by one word Steve's opening rant, if rant it be. But centre ground? I'm not so sure of that. And the gods help America where the centre ground, seemingly is No Man's Land, a shell-blasted desert where nothing lives, except furtively.

What alarms me, and insofar as I can muster a single shit to give, is not the loss of "centre", it's the polarisation. The UK is nowhere near as bad as, to a Yook, the Yoos seems to be. But we've been drifting that way for the last few decades, and it isn't a pretty vista. The Liberals have been a wasted vote for a century in the UK. They will never form a government again. It may well be the case that centrist politics, whether it be UK-centre or much-further-to-the-right US-centre, no longer appeals to anyone.

But do we really need the "Yah Boo Sucks" infant playground 5 year old mentality of politics that we've had these last years? Of course, we have Trump now. Five year old has been reduced to three year old. How much further can the bar sink...

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 Sep 18 - 01:09 PM

Pete, no-one could complain about your party set up.

Dave,
How is it that Labour, a left wing party, can be infiltrated by the left wing?

That would be silly. It is said by numerous Labour MPs and peers to have been infiltrated agin by the Far left as it was in the 80s.

BWM,
So, to Right-Wing Extremists like our resident trolls, to whom their own Right-Wing views are regarded as 'the norm', anyone of the centre might well appear to be Far-Left

I am a centrist or even Centre-Left like most Labour MPs.

All of you, I am only quoting what Labour MPs and peers are saying.

The Left Wing Guardian on Umunna,
"The Streatham MP, one of the leading backbenchers from the party’s centre-left, previously said people with his views were being forced out of Labour under Jeremy Corbyn, and he urged the leader to “call off the dogs”. "
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/sep/09/chuka-umunna-labour-is-institutionally-racist

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 Sep 18 - 01:31 PM

Stupid, Keith. As ever.

I could agree with most of that, Raedwulf. When I kicked the thread off I was wondering when someone would cast doubt on the very concept of centre ground. It seems to mean whatever you want it to mean, and the term is gleefully usurped by establishment politicos in order to accord themselves some gravitas, some respectability. And if you're not in it, you're definitely non-U. You hit the nail on the head when you say that UK centre ground is somewhat at variance with US centre ground. I wonder what the Chinese see as centre ground...

I don't agree that votes are ever wasted or meaningless. Sixteen million "meaningless" votes mean that brexit stays on the table and is not a given. Labour not quite managing to ditch Theresa May, but gaining far more seats than expected, fired enough warning shots across the bows of the political establishment to very likely to change politics forever in this country. Their reaction, to redouble their efforts to demonise Corbyn, shows that they no longer feel secure.

And my personal politics are definitely not of the past. Marriage, mortgage, kids, schools, home ownership, ISAs... Come off it!

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Sep 18 - 01:42 PM

The TUC have voted to campaign for a new vote on Brexit if May doesn't get a good enough deal
That should shake things up in the right places
Meanwhile, back at the asylum
Johnson continues to get a kicking from senior Tories for comparing May's Brexit proposals as a suicide bomb
Anin'cha proud to be an extremist in these times !!!
Britain's future - what future??
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Iains
Date: 09 Sep 18 - 02:06 PM

"Incidentally Ians
The man you have claimed shoult have the right to free speech......................"

Can you not get it through your thick head that the only person raising the subject of tommy robinson is yourself. You are obsessed by the man.
You also forget that free speech has consequences, despite UN and EU human rights legislation. In Europe freedom of expression carries responsibilities. As always you demonstrate that you know nothing.

https://www.economicvoice.com/is-freedom-of-expression-under-attack-in-the-uk/

You seem to advocate that you can say what you like without consequences but all other dissent should be muted or destroyed. Where does that place you on the political spectrum? You are an extremist and anglophobe of the worst kind.
Look at your ludicrous post earlier today. One law for you, one for everyone else. You would be a joke if you were not so dangerous.
"It's pretty futile asking people who express Islamophobic views in the form of "cultural implants" (quotes available on request) or support the selling of fighter planes to terrorist states who use them on third world impoverished people (quotes available on request, or who have defended Tory paedofiles and sex pests (quotes available on request) or described Irish children as having been brainwashed (quotes available on request) or described Northern Irish sectarian marches as "pleasant days out (quotes available on request) or blamed three days of Northern Ireland rioting on schoolchildren (quotes available on request), or described travellers as "slave owners" (quotes available on request)...... or expressed some of the most extreme views ever expressed on this forum (quotes available on request)..... to desist from using terms like "extreme left...
It is eequally futile to ask such people exactly what they mean by "extreme left"

CAN I PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE ASK THAT, UNLESS THEY ARE HELL BENT ON GETTING YET ANOTHER THREAD CLOSED, CAN THEY PLEASE NOT RESPOND TO THIS PROVOCATIVE LANGUAGE

Do you actually read anything before posting?If you do not want a response you do not like do not be provocative. It is simply trolling.

Here is a little gem from the gruniard many years ago, but still relevant


https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/sep/21/freedom-of-speech-online-witch-hunts-law--bbc

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: bobad
Date: 09 Sep 18 - 02:24 PM

If you thought it couldn't get any worse for Labour well it just has.

Utterly shameful. Another to add to the long list of Jeremy Corbyn’s anti-Semitic associations.

The woman who vandalized one of the few remaining portions of the Warsaw ghetto with “Free Gaza and Palestine” will address the Momentum Festival with Jeremy Corbyn this month.

Warsaw ghetto vandal to speak at Momentum’s Corbyn festival

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 Sep 18 - 02:41 PM

Stupid, Keith. As ever.

Just quoting your own MPs and Guardian Steve. Why is that "stupid" ?

Jim,
who have defended Tory paedofiles and sex pests (quotes available on request)

YES PLEASE JIM. And all the others please.

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Sep 18 - 02:52 PM

Date and place of birth 1978
London
Occupation Journalist, publicist
Ewa Jasiewicz (born in 1978 in London) - a British journalist of Polish origin, an activist in the defense of human rights.

She was born into a family of Polish emigrants from the Anders army. She graduated from anthropology at Goldsmith College, currently working as a freelancer in social and journalism [1]. She was one of the few Western journalists present in the Gaza Strip during the Israeli attack at the turn of 2008 and 2009, known as "Liquid Lead". Her reports from Iraq and Palestine were published, among others in Guardian, The Daily Telegraph, The Independent and Le Monde Diplomatique. She took part in a convoy to the Gaza Strip with humanitarian aid attacked on May 31, 2010 by Israeli commandos [2], which killed nine human rights activists and about 20 were injured. She is the author of the book "Set Gaza to Burn.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Iains
Date: 09 Sep 18 - 02:56 PM

Rather silly mentioning wild allegations of Tory paedophiles.

Below is a list of convicted Labour paedophiles.


https://labour25.com/

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Sep 18 - 02:57 PM

"YES PLEASE JIM. And all the others please."
You knopw who you havbe defended Keith - the Dpolphin sqare Paedos, Edward Heathth asnd the sex pest to tried to denigrate the police and was finally Damien Green, who was forced to resign
I'll sort tham out for you - and all the others you have just admitted to by not asking for proof

Full list here
"who express Islamophobic views in the form of "cultural implants" (quotes available on request) or support the selling of fighter planes to terrorist states who use them on third world impoverished people (quotes available on request, or who have defended Tory paedofiles and sex pests (quotes available on request) or described Irish children as having been brainwashed (quotes available on request) or described Northern Irish sectarian marches as "pleasant days out (quotes available on request) or blamed three days of Northern Ireland rioting on schoolchildren (quotes available on request), or described travellers as "slave owners" (quotes available on request)...... or expressed some of the most extreme views ever expressed on this forum (quotes available on request)...."
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Raedwulf
Date: 09 Sep 18 - 03:02 PM

*grin* Purely personal p-o-v, Steve. I've never felt that my vote has counted for anything. Not under FPTP. First time I could vote (and did) was local council shtuff. Even back then... I didn't have any Greens, so I put down one LAB, one LIB, one CON. What I got was 67 LAB, 1 LIB, 0 Anything Else. It doesn't exactly make you feel like your vote mattered...

If memory serves, the first GE I voted in was against (yes, against...) Gordon Brown. I was fed up with being nannied by Noo LAB. Who incidentally wanted me to pay for everything under the sun (as an able-bodied white single male with no dependents, I am a cash cow for everything under the sun. Oh, plus I'm a car driver which makes me the Devil's Own Spawn. In general I don't mind being utterly ignored when it comes to vote buying, but I do object to having my nose rubbed in it!). I still feel slightly dirty when I admit that my X went into a Tory box, but I looked up the previous GE and the LIBs were such a distant third that an X there... I helped cut the LAB majority from 15K to 5K. Again, it doesn't make much of a diff, do it?

I am very firmly in the camp that says FPTP is past its sell by date. It has its virtues (simplicity being the principal one), but I don't think it's a good way of choosing a government of representing the wants of the electorate any more. I don't like the ERS's preferred AV system either. That, to me, seems to simply be a complicated FPTP. I'd much prefer PR on the German model. There, my vote adds a tiny little bit to the whole.

As for 70's Socialism, {grin} again, a purely personal p-o-v. I've always been dubious about "tax & spend" policy anyway. But in the modern global world I simply can't see how it will work. We're at the mercy of global market forces, we cannot isolate ourselves, and there's been no appetite in the UK for higher personal taxation since Milk-Snatcher got in (it's no good saying "but Denmark..." et al; we aren't them). It's been asked before - "Would you pay 1p on income tax if it went to the NHS?" 80% of the country answers "yes", the Tories run a scare campaign (remember "Labour's tax bombshell"?) and the Tories get elected again... I'm no lover of Tory govt's, even if I've no faith in LAB doing any better (it doesn't matter who you vote for, the government always gets in!). But if LAB does want to get elected... For better or worse, Blair managed it. I can't see how JC will!

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 Sep 18 - 03:05 PM

I did not defend them Jim.
I just pointed out that the accuser proved to be a fantasist, none of it was true, and the police paid compensation to all the living suspects.

Now show us those quotes as promised.

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Sep 18 - 03:08 PM

There you go Keith -too much for one mouthful


Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Keith A of Hertford - PM
Date: 23 Jun 11 - 02:44 AM

The full post selectively quoted by Jim.
: 13 Feb 11 - 07:10 AM
Don, no one on this thread has claimed any of those things.
Don I do now " believe that all male Pakistani Muslims have a culturally implanted tendency" but only because of the testimony of all those knowledgeable people, and always acknowledging that only a tiny minority succumb.
Do you dismiss all that just because it does not fit your preconceptions, or do you have some powerful evidence to the contrary that you have not shared with us?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 09 Sep 18 - 03:20 PM

A mention of the 'left wing Guardian' should tell us all we need to know about the mindset in action here. As someone else commented, perceptions have shifted so far to the right that they think the Daily Mail is the norm. To the UKIP brigade that currently infest these threads anyone slightly to the left of Adolph Hitler is a communist.

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 09 Sep 18 - 03:23 PM

well.....if you're right. we'll have a labour government.

i hope you're right.

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Iains
Date: 09 Sep 18 - 03:34 PM

Keith he has no idea what he is on about.
"or support the selling of fighter planes to terrorist states"
Ah Yes. That was labour under blair and the loon brown.
The Observer
Richard Wachman

Sun 16 Sep 2007 15.45 BST
First published on Sun 16 Sep 2007 15.45 BST

Aerospace giant BAE is part of a consortium that has clinched a £40bn contract to supply 72 Eurofighter Typhoons to Saudi Arabia in the world's biggest defence deal.

or described travellers as "slave owners"
Ah Yes the Rooney traveller family tried and convicted of both fraud and slavery


https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/840002/Lincolnshire-police-Rooney-traveller-family-slaves-shocking-conditions-dirty-caravans

Do you ever check your facts?

Ewa Jasiewicz your potted background was a tad selective. She worked as a union organizer for Unite the Union,activist and writer involved in various anti-capitalist, climate and solidarity campaigns including Fuel Poverty Action, No Dash for Gas, the Polish Campaign of Solidarity withPalestine and Witness Syria. and of course guilty of desecration.

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 Sep 18 - 06:06 PM

"If you thought it couldn't get any worse for Labour well it just has.

Utterly shameful. Another to add to the long list of Jeremy Corbyn’s anti-Semitic associations...blah blah yadda yadda..."

A word in your shell-like, you obsessive little tosspot. I specifically asked that antisemitism be kept out of this thread of mine. Know why? Because I happen to think that populism vs alleged centre-ground politics is a current issue worth discussing. I don't give a monkey's bloody mickey whether you agree with that or not. But if you want to discuss antisemitism, twat, START YOUR OWN BLOODY THREAD. Did you catch that, or would you like it in semaphore/on a billboard/screamed from the rooftops? You wanna discuss antisemitism? Grand! START YOUR OWN BLOODY THREAD!

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Donuel
Date: 09 Sep 18 - 06:11 PM

The attempt to make America a one party nation has backfired.


Instead many new parties are forming and obscure the middle like the;
Asslickans, Whackocrats, Bite Suprema Cysts, Fat Panthers, Litigious Preservatives, Not See Party and the Unseen Party along with the existing Green Party, Democrats, Republicans, Socialists and Libertarians.

England may soon have the House of Gorge, Shove It Party and my favorite The Flavour Party.

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: robomatic
Date: 09 Sep 18 - 09:22 PM

Uh, a word in your shell Steve, but we had a thread specifically about the subject which shall be nameless, and with no warning it not only got abruptly terminated by a mod, but the last few messages including one of mine that I had spent time over, and was non invective, got truncated.

So kindly do some research on an emotion which some of the rest of us call compassion and maybe you can salvage this tread.

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 09 Sep 18 - 10:02 PM

From: Steve Shaw - PM
Date: 09 Sep 18 - 06:06 PM
"If you thought it couldn't get any worse for Labour well it just has.
Utterly shameful. Another to add to the long list of Jeremy Corbyn’s anti-Semitic associations...blah blah yadda yadda..."
A word in your shell-like, you obsessive little tosspot. I specifically asked that antisemitism be kept out of this thread of mine. Know why? Because I happen to think that populism vs alleged centre-ground politics is a current issue worth discussing. I don't give a monkey's bloody mickey whether you agree with that or not. But if you want to discuss antisemitism, twat, START YOUR OWN BLOODY THREAD. Did you catch that, or would you like it in semaphore/on a billboard/screamed from the rooftops? You wanna discuss antisemitism? Grand! START YOUR OWN BLOODY THREAD!

For someone who wants to keep anti-Semitism out of the discussion you're not doing very well so far. Apart from your second post, asking that it not be mentioned, the next was by David Carter, which you responded to:

From: Steve Shaw - PM
Date: 08 Sep 18 - 07:25 PM

"Chukka usually talks some sense, but on this I don't know what he is on about. People at risk of deselection, and rightly so, are the likes of Field, Stringer and Hoey, brexit apologists propping up the tories. And Joan Ryan who is trying to equate being anti-Israel with being antisemitic. I do not know of any genuine moderates facing deselection."

Absolutely right, David. And why should anyone see anything sinister in constituency parties having the power to get shot of MPs who they see as no longer representing their interests? I call that the very epitome of democracy!

If you really want to keep anti-Semitism out of the discussion you will have to try a lot harder to control your own responses. Not much chance there then!

Perhaps you might wish to ask the mods to close this discussion, as you are unable to follow your own guidelines for the discussion.

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Sep 18 - 03:19 AM

"Perhaps you might wish to ask the mods to close this discussion, "
Nigel has a point - but not the one he is trying to make I think
Every discussion we attempt to have on proper subjects are now being hi-jacked - largely by two not particularly intelligent extremists who are somewhat overburdened by their own problems and insist on inflicting them on the rest of us
Imagine taking seriously people who are deeply inflicted with their own racism and cultural hatred when they accuse the Labour Party of the same thing - yet we do so - every time
Keith's extremist Islamophobie is writ large in his notorious quote, yet we allow him to overwhelm thread after thread by taking him seriously and responding to him
Iains is an ill-mannered bully who has used this thread to promote a leading hate campaigner whose activities go back at least as far as the Brievik murders
Yet we feel it necessary to defend Labour from his attacks as if what he says is important
Why should we take accusations of extremism from twd of the most extreme posters to this thread seriously - yet we do, time after time after time.....
It's not even as if they say what they have to say well - they have no well-thought-out or original arguments... just media garbage repeated

By entering into discussion with these people we allow them to make our threads extensions of their hate campaigns and those in the media and on the streets, instigated by Tommy Robinson and his ilk .

Now Nigel wants us to close the thread - why wouldn't he - we might get around to discussing the farcical behaviour of his party at the present time - their destructive incompetence, their clownish in-fighting, their racist leading politicians and their own accusations of cultural hatred that they have always refused to deal with.

This is a perfectly good subject - we either get on with discussing it or we continue to allow it to be wrecked by the same two people who have wrecked topic after topic by simply behaving like two fractious brats running around the room and making nuisance of themselves until someone pays them the attention they seek
We either get on with it or we let them wreck another thread - simple as that
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Sep 18 - 03:20 AM

Perhaps it's time for a thread about returning serious discussion to this forum
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 10 Sep 18 - 03:39 AM

Correct Jim, and I've been saying precisely that (as has our pet Gnome) for a very long time, summed up in four short words - Don't Feed The Trolls.

But the same few otherwise intelligent people (and I include myself, I get sucked in too) simply cannot resist feeding them!

We all know who the thread-wreckers, the nit-pickers, the forum-vandals are. So, repeat after me - DON'T FEED THE TROLLS.

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 10 Sep 18 - 03:40 AM

It really is dead simple. Don't respond to the trolls. They will still post but with a one sided conversation they will soon look like what they are - the nutters in the bus that talk nonsense.

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Iains
Date: 10 Sep 18 - 03:57 AM

You have made great sport over Boris and his bit of skirt, but seriously who cares about what sexual antics an mp gets up to providing it does not break the law? Do you think they have some sort of angelic existence? I would have thought that using tax payers money to clean out moats would have destroyed that perception long ago, for all but the most naive.
    But when the police are called in to investigate claims of what must not be mentioned concerning the labour party, then the response is denial. That 200 complaints on the same subject, that must not be mentioned, lie uninvestigated there isnot a whimper. But to slap every Jewish person in the face, despite the ongoing sore that was supposedly settled last week Labour comes up with its pièce de résistance by inviting a professional troublemaker who vandalised one of the last remaining walls of the Warsaw ghetto to speak at a Momentum event alongside the Labour Party conference this month.

This is simply pouring oil on the flames.

It makes a total mockery of the attempts by labour to put the issue to bed. If Ewa Jasiewicz, a British anti-Israel activist, is encouraged to give this speech it will come back to haunt labour in future elections for decades. Stupidity does not begin to describe it.

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 Sep 18 - 05:21 AM

Dave,
A mention of the 'left wing Guardian' should tell us all we need to know about the mindset in action here.

Of course it is a Left Wing paper, and universally recognised as such.
Your perceptions are so far to the Left that you think it is the norm. To the Hard Left brigade that currently dominate these threads anyone slightly to the Right of Kim Jong-Un is a fascist.

NY Times when Guardian changed its format,
"The Guardian, Britain’s Left-Wing News Power, Goes Tabloid"

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 Sep 18 - 05:27 AM

Jim,
Keith's extremist Islamophobie is writ large in his notorious quote, yet we allow him to overwhelm thread after thread by taking him seriously and responding to him

There is no Islamophobia in that or any other quote of mine.
The people who I said I believed were mostly Muslim and all Left Wing.
You lied.
And, my short, few posts hardly overwhelm threads dominated by a whole gang of you like minded Far Left extremists.
You lied.

Instead of launching lying personal attacks on me, address the thread subject and what I actually say in this thread. If you can!

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Iains
Date: 10 Sep 18 - 05:30 AM

Iains is an ill-mannered bully who has used this thread to promote a leading hate campaigner whose activities go back at least as far as the Brievik murders.

In the interest of accuracy it is Jim Carrol that keeps repeatedly promoting the subject of tommy robinson. BUT, never let facts get in the way of a good story! What are we at now? 5 times you have raised the subject? The reality is that jimmie is promoting young tommy, by repeatedly referring to him. I presume the oxygen of publicity is a concept beyond your grasp!

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 Sep 18 - 05:36 AM

All of you, calling me a troll does not address the fact that I merely quote your own MPs.

The same ones I used to vote for and who used to achieve Labour governments by actually winning elections.

They are saying that the Labour Party is being taken over by Hard Left entryists, like you.
Unfortunately they also link those entryists to the anti-Semitism that has arisen in the party since the take over started.

The two issues are inextricably linked, unfortunately.

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Sep 18 - 05:48 AM

"It really is dead simple. Don't respond to the trolls. "
Quite agree Dave (and I am as guilty as any of breaking the rule), but you have to admit they do have their uses.
The importance of this subject, it seems to me, is that Britain - in fact, a large slice of the planet is entering into crisis - a failing system which is allowing politicians to prey on legitimate fears by using racist scapegoating - "it's not us - it's all those foreigners" type of thing
Iain's has just summed that up beautifully in a few words.
Britain's use of racism is reflected in its racist foreign secretary.
Ian's summation of this is "Boris and his bit of skirt" - a defence of racism and a piece of blatant misogyny, two features of today's British Establishment summed up in six words.
We really should be grateful for these trolls and the examples of modern society they provide.
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 Sep 18 - 05:52 AM

Some recent quotes of moderate Labour MPs,

"Angela Smith, MP for Penistone and Stocksbridge, who sits on the representative body of MPs, the parliamentary committee, said the atmosphere in the party was so negative it raised questions about its ability to survive: “It is time for Jeremy to show some leadership by making it clear he will not support measures to deselect Labour MPs. The mood within the party is unbelievably tense and threatens its very existence."

"Frank Field, who recently quit the parliamentary party, citing the handling of the antisemitism row and bullying in local constituency parties,"

" former shadow business secretary, Chuka Umunna, said Corbyn should “call off the dogs”. He said Labour’s tradition of fighting discrimination was under threat. “There is now a clear and present danger that this tradition is driven out of our party.” "


https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/sep/09/jeremy-corbyn-in-party-row-purging-labour-mps-who-criticise-leadership

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Iains
Date: 10 Sep 18 - 06:03 AM

"Ian's summation of this is "Boris and his bit of skirt" - a defence of racism and a piece of blatant misogyny,"

Keep the jokes coming, It makes a pleasant change from your normal behaviour. You do like to bring up the term racism every chance do you not? Is it some sort impediment you suffer from, akin to Tourettes?

By the way you seem to have a total misunderstanding of what a troll is. This is what wiki says on the subject:(not the last word, but good enough)
In Internet slang, a troll is a person who starts quarrels or upsets people on the Internet to distract and sow discord by posting inflammatory and digressive, extraneous, or off-topic messages in an online community (such as a newsgroup, forum, chat room, or blog) with the intent of provoking readers into displaying emotional responses and normalizing tangential discussion, whether for the troll's amusement or a specific gain.

Now you are constantly making defamatory statements about people, trying to provoke a reaction and the rest of your little coterie wander off topic when it suits in order to provoke a response.
   Now by contrast my behaviour here is that of reasoned argument backed by plentiful links, rejecting some of the more asinine statements by some and correcting factual errors by others.

You can bend and twist definitions to your little hearts content, but nowhere will you find me trolling. If the truth hurts I suggest you try therapy instead of starting slanging matches!

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 Sep 18 - 06:05 AM

Right.

Nigel. I have no powers to proscribe the word "antisemitic." When David used the word he was not trying to revive the issue in this thread. There is a context in which remarks by MPs may be germane to the wider discussion about centre-ground politics but without making their remarks the topic of discussion themselves. You know that full well. Please contrast that with the repeated attempts by Troll Keith, see above, to get us burbling on about it again. He is a complete obsessive. David is not.

Robo. You've be quite nice lately. Let me tell you summat, mate. I have had HOURS' worth of posts deleted, largely at the end of closed threads when the mod has deleted great lumps of posts. I've done long posts to threads open when I started typing which were closed by the time I'd finished. A lot more of this has happened to me than to you, of that I'm almost certain. So go and tell it to the marines, please. It's just what happens here.

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 Sep 18 - 06:10 AM

Steve, re. that subject, unfortunately it is inextricably linked to the subject you gave this thread.
The Centre ground Labour MPs are saying that the Labour Party is being taken over by Hard Left entryists, like you.
Unfortunately they also link those entryists to the anti-Semitism that has arisen in the party since the take over started.

Thus the two issues are inextricably linked, unfortunately.

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 Sep 18 - 06:10 AM

Steve, re. that subject, unfortunately it is inextricably linked to the subject you gave this thread.
The Centre ground Labour MPs are saying that the Labour Party is being taken over by Hard Left entryists, like you.
Unfortunately they also link those entryists to the anti-Semitism that has arisen in the party since the take over started.

Thus the two issues are inextricably linked, unfortunately.

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Sep 18 - 07:06 AM

For the first time, for nearly as long as I can remember, Labour is now offering an alternative the the horrendous career and profit-driving that now passes for British politics and has been its driving force for far too long.

Labour has got where it is by an influx of 'new-brooms' who have embraced the old ideals of Labour-Party Socialism - never extreme, as is being described by the trolls (unless you believe improving the lot of all as "extreme", as these people obviously do)
It is little wonder that is has been subjected to several years of attacks by those who support and benefit from the status-quo
Genuinely New' Labour (as distinct from Blair's 'New Labour') is bound to make mistakes - it has done already - they are largely green at the game, but at least the appear to have a principled objective rather than more of the same.

What has been significant in all these discussions is that the Troll-Supported parties are guilty of all the things they are accusing the Labour Party of - in spades
Extremism (how extreme is it to bung a sectarian Party £1 billion in order to stay in power, or to sell arms to stades engaged in genocide?)
Racism/cultural hatred (how racist is it to blame immigrants and refuges for economic failures, or appointing a racist foreign secretary?)
Incompetence and in-fighting (the right dares to accuse anybody of this while the present Government Circus hasn't given us its star turns yet !!!)

The most significant thing of all is that the few Government supporters here refuse totally to discuss what is happening to Britain at present - not just the Troll Brothers Trio, but even the half-decent ones.
I invariably disagree with Nigel, but I do respect his articulacy and his obvious dedication, yet even he would rather see a thread closed than see these things discussed rationally - pity.
These discussions need a bit of intelligent balance - no takers so far
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 Sep 18 - 07:32 AM

Just shut up and start a new thread, Keith. Naturally, you know that your reputation here is so rock-bottom that it'd be shut in no time. Your problem. Keep your shite out of this thread.

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 Sep 18 - 07:38 AM

It is not my shite.
It comes from Labour MPs.
They are the ones who say the two issues are inextricably linked.
Read what they say Steve. I am just repeating it for you.

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Sep 18 - 08:34 AM

Leave it and move on
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Sep 18 - 08:35 AM

While we are still able to
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Sep 18 - 08:40 AM

For the record - it has just been announced that Boris Johnson will possibly get the support of around 80 Tory MPs on Thursday for his opposition to May
Britain now faces the possibility of having an openly racist Prime Minister - an educated Donald Trump without disgusting charisma (but getting there) or money
And Labour has troubles!!!!!
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Iains
Date: 10 Sep 18 - 08:44 AM

Poor old Corbyn the Boundary Commission has released its final recommendations for cutting down the number of Parliamentary constituencies from 650 to 600 and it’s bad news for the Absolute Boy with his Islington North constituency getting the chop. Will Comrades Thornberry, Abbott or Starmer make way for the dear leader by letting him take one of their neighbouring seats?

Mayhap the runes are trying to tell him something.

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: bobad
Date: 10 Sep 18 - 08:49 AM

By the way you seem to have a total misunderstanding of what a troll is.

You should know by now that to this cabal of blowhards a troll is anyone who puts forth an opinion contrary to theirs. It has always been thus. Ignore it.

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Iains
Date: 10 Sep 18 - 09:01 AM

Bobad believe me. I do. The usual suspects provide a laugh a minute. They take themselves far too seriously. They think their opinions matter. How arrogant is that?

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 10 Sep 18 - 11:44 AM

On the topic of the thread. I agree that the centre ground should be reclaimed. Politics has moved much to far to the right as is witnessed by what is happening here on Mudcat, in the UK, in the USA and, from what I see on the news, worldwide.

It could well be to do with the previous "iron curtain" countries rebounding from the throes of communism.

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Sep 18 - 12:09 PM

More to do with our system running its natural course, I would have thought
Some of the worst examples of 'a free society' have come from former communist (sic) states; Russia, Former Yugoslavia... and plunged into a dog-eat-dog world
I think Brexit and Trump started the ball rolling seriously
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 Sep 18 - 12:43 PM

"I'm a moderate. I'm in the centre ground. Come and join me, you moderates of left and right. Let's retake this centre ground..."

Anyone remember the SDP? They tried it. Not only did they fail, deservedly so, but they contributed to two more terms of Thatcherism, which meant industries shut down and whole communities wrecked. Oh, and the poll tax. Nice work. The same will happen if a bunch of disaffected Labour MPs, along with probably very few if any Tories, start to hover around the joke known as the LibDems, who, not having been satisfied with propping up Cameron for five years and helping to bring on brexit, then losing nearly all their seats, want to have another crack at it. They are opportunist wastrels with no vision and no integrity. Follow them and the Tories will be in until most of us here are pushing up daisies. That'll be good, eh?

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 10 Sep 18 - 12:48 PM

Sadly, Steve, and much as I'd like to have grounds to differ, I'm afraid I have to agree with you.

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 Sep 18 - 01:11 PM

Dave, there has been no move to the Right on Mudcat.

On politics, there are only a few of us moderates questioning the extreme views of your Far Left gang that now dominate all political threads.

The EU is certainly lurching to the Far Right.
They have no place in UK politics but are massively on the rise in France, Belgium, Germany, Holland, Denmark, Sweden, Poland, Hungary, Austria, Italy,......

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Iains
Date: 10 Sep 18 - 02:01 PM

"....... they contributed to two more terms of Thatcherism, which meant industries shut down and whole communities wrecked."

Good soundbite, but as with the pontifications on the decline of the coal industry in the uk seen on here, it is simply not true.

The relative decline of manufacturing,as a share of both output and employment, has been apparent in all advanced economies,particularly since the 1960s - but the decline has been more rapid in the UK compared to the other advanced countries. Thishas led some to argue that this reflects a process of historical evolution, as advanced conomies are characterised by a large services sector and a small manufacturing sector. Nigel Lawson when, as Chancellor of Exchequer, stated: ‘there is no amantine law that says we have to produce as much in the way of manufacturing as we consume... If it does turn out that we are more efficient in world terms at providing services than at producing goods, then our national interest lies in a surplus on services and a deficit on goods’

Plenty of graphs and data out there to support this view, with the same outcome being seen in France, Germany and the US. Thatcher may have had a monetary policy that it could be argued exacerbated the situation, but did not alter the underlying trends, merely the timescale. There are also statistical illusions from reconfiguration. Simply,many activities that were undertaken by manufacturing firms (and so were classified as manufacturing) – such as R&D, design, transportation and logistics have been subcontracted or purchased from external suppliers, and as a result are now classified as services) Automation and increased efficiency also reduces labour numbers - This is ongoing and will likely wreak havoc among certain professions before long.( Accountancy being a prime candidate.)

A bit of a gross simplification but sufficient to show the total absurdity of trying to blame Thatcher for a situation comparable to Canute and the tide.

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 10 Sep 18 - 02:18 PM

I think the collapse of communism and subsequent slide into the mire of corruption created the global conditions for the likes of Trump, Johnson and Farage to thrive, Jim. I would never subscribe to the type of economy founded behind the iron curtain but maybe the threat of it was enough the keep the excesses of the right in check. Once it became obvious that Russia's communist economy was in shreds the sharks moved in. On seeing that the sharks were winning, the bottom feeders tried their hand.

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Iains
Date: 10 Sep 18 - 02:40 PM

"I think the collapse of communism and subsequent slide into the mire of corruption created the global conditions for the likes of Trump, Johnson and Farage to thrive, Jim. I would never subscribe to the type of economy founded behind the iron curtain but maybe the threat of it was enough the keep the excesses of the right in check"

What a peculiar belief system. I would be extremely worried if many shared the same view.

I suppose you think the way the economy ran was rubbish but the political system and the KGB were ace!
How very dangerous, but for someone that denies the gruniard is leftwing
I suppose anything is possible

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 Sep 18 - 03:15 PM

Germany and the US make stuff. You and your shortening of the timescale - even if trashing manufacturing in this country was inevitable, which I don't accept for a single second, the "shortening of the timescale," (a euphemism for kicking the working classes in the guts for daring to have strong trade unions and using their only weapon, strike action, to get fair wages and conditions for their labour) was brutal and inhuman and it threw millions on to the scrapheap of unemployment or bogus "incapacity benefit" (which made the unemployment figures look so much better) in a short time. I do enjoy reading your carefully-constructed revisionism. Clearly, temporal distance lends enchantment to your view. By the time Thatcher had finished, we had yuppiedom, be-a-millionaire-in-a-day and government by spiv. Maybe you were a spiv yourself so you missed out on all the adverse effects.

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Donuel
Date: 10 Sep 18 - 03:27 PM

To be accurate and to correct the errors that 'playing telephone' produces,
I originally said "TO A FASCIST the Guardian is left wing"

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 10 Sep 18 - 03:43 PM

"TO A FASCIST the Guardian is left wing"

Spot on Donuel. If it os so apparent from all the way across the Atlantic I am pretty sure that is obvious to many others. Thank you.

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Iains
Date: 10 Sep 18 - 03:48 PM

" even if trashing manufacturing in this country was inevitable, which I don't accept for a single second,"

Denial is a wonderful thing!


https://www.economist.com/finance-and-economics/2005/09/29/industrial-metamorphosis

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Iains
Date: 10 Sep 18 - 04:00 PM

Wiki on the gruniard.
May not always be right but I am sure someone here would have corrected the entry by now if it was inaccurate.

The paper's readership is generally on the mainstream left of British political opinion. The newspaper's reputation as a platform for liberal and left-wing editorial has led to the use of the "Guardian reader" and "Guardianista" as often (but not always) pejorative epithets for those of left-leaning or politically correct tendencies.

The extreme left here may think the gruniard is center but the rest of humanity, barring Donuel, accepts it is a leftist rag.

Even more of you in denial. Is it contagious?

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 Sep 18 - 05:21 PM

Jaysus, there's a bad smell in here.

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Raggytash
Date: 10 Sep 18 - 05:52 PM

Hmmmm .......... when did being Liberal ever equate to being left wing ............. except of course in the minds of those of an extreme right wing persuasion.

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Stanron
Date: 10 Sep 18 - 06:02 PM

Of course Lib Dems are left wing. Why else did the gang of four go there?

Labour's recent lurch to the left leaves a moderate left of center position available for the Libs. They are currently almost leaderless so whether or not they actually go there is not certain. They will be fighting for some of that space with the current government which has partially moved into that vacuum. Although that will no doubt be contested by the UK Lefties on this forum.

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Iains
Date: 10 Sep 18 - 06:05 PM

If you cannot accept wiki, try this for size.
https://yougov.co.uk/news/2017/03/07/h

Another in denial!

Tis a terrible affliction!

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Raggytash
Date: 10 Sep 18 - 06:14 PM

Page not found Iains ............

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 Sep 18 - 06:36 PM

The LibDems are pink Tories and always have been. Because of their opportunistic and shabby alliance with Cameron (who cynically shat on them from a great height), which helped to visit the disaster of brexit on this country, they have lost all credibility. All expedience, no integrity, no vision, no bloody use. And they won't be coming back in your or my lifetime. Thank God. And I even like Vince a little bit, in an odd sort of way...

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 Sep 18 - 06:55 PM

"They will be fighting for some of that space with the current government which has partially moved into that vacuum."

Well you know me. I'm very sceptical of all this middle-ground talk. Claiming the middle ground sounds like a ploy, you're claiming to be safe and cosy and the protector of the the status quo, I'm a guy just like you, boy next door, you can really trust me... So I'd like you to tell me which Tories you consider to have moved into this "vacuum" to which you refer. Well I suppose Sarah Wollaston is a nice lady, but she hasn't moved there. She's been there all the time, if there really is a "there." Any others?

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: robomatic
Date: 10 Sep 18 - 07:05 PM

Jim Carroll wrote a few messages back:

Some of the worst examples of 'a free society' have come from former communist (sic) states; Russia, Former Yugoslavia... and plunged into a dog-eat-dog world
I think Brexit and Trump started the ball rolling seriously

Some of the most corrosive downgrades from democracies of sorts have been:

Turkey
Hungary
Poland
Philippines
Venezuela
India to a lesser extent

Democracies and Republics are subject to failure. They can fail due to catastrophe, to conquest, to civil war, to enough decline in civic virture which is something I think we're seeing here. People confusing ends with means.

I do not include Russia because Russia has never had a stable democracy. They kicked one around for a couple years in the 90s but due to luck, weakness and craziness they did not get a fair start. Now they're wiping nerve toxin on people's front doors.

To quote President Obama: "It did not start with Donald Trump. He is a symptom, not the cause."

I'm pretty sure I've said the same exact thing independently in these threads.

Supposedly someone came up to Benjamin Franklin late in the Constitutional Convention and asked what kind of government the delegates had come up with. He said: "A republic, if you can keep it."

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 Sep 18 - 07:19 PM

The sharpest, most sudden and most frightening downgrade of democracy is currently taking place in the United States. Can't think why you didn't include it.

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Sep 18 - 08:27 PM

What's your point Robo - I said "some"?
You may not but I'm sure your idea of a "stable democracy" would include many that are not
You were advocating not so long ago for a "stable Democracy" that is in the process of erhnic cleansing cultural undesirables
Your view of the Soviet Union is a mixture of Len Deighton, The Manchurian Candidate and Joe McCarthy, giving the impression that an entire population of getting on for 300 million people allowed themselves to be enslaved and oppressed by security men and politicians - more to do with schoolboy comic-books than reality
As Steve said, America is rapidly becoming the most unstable and dangerous power on the planet
Parliamentary Democracy in Britain is becoming more of a con-trick by the day - they promise - we vote them in - they ignore everything they promised for five year - and so on ad-infinitum   
DEmocracy is now in meltdown, Governments like ours buy support from whoever they can
Russia and Israel have shown how national independence can be breached with their examples of active interference in the policies of other States
I can't remember when any of us went to the polls with the belief that what we were being promised had any basis in reality
I'm nott an Anarchist but I have always had a soft spot for their slogan - DON'T VOTE FOR ANY OF THEM - IT ONLY ENCOURAGES THEM
What is happening in countries that are seeing a rise in the fotri#tunes of the ne-Nazis is a gradual progression from what is happening here

A couple of years ago I would have laughed if somebody had told me someone like Trump would beccome the most powerful leader in the world - now I'm not sure that he won't win another term

"Page not found Iains ............"
Wouldn't bother too much Rag - it's a 'survey' from a multi-million stock-exchange marketed company named You-gov with Conservative Party connections whose surveys are all carried out on the internet
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 10 Sep 18 - 11:03 PM

Its not that The Guardian is left wing.

Its that sort of poncy Dave Spart type left wing. The sort you can rely on to lose.

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Iains
Date: 11 Sep 18 - 03:32 AM

Debating techniques employed by the usual suspects. Luv the crack about racists and reducation!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k4q-VbAIMzU



Oh, and by the way Jim, care to demonstrate in what way the statistics on the yougov site are incorrect? You make the usual mistake of conflating the source with the content. Is this because you blather everything in ketchup?

Strange ipsos mori gives identical results. Are they a tory stitch up as well?

https://www.ipsos.com/ipsos-mori/en-uk/voting-newspaper-readership-1992-2010

I do enjoy your constant denial of reality. This is what comes of inhabiting a timewarp!

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Sep 18 - 03:44 AM

God certainly knew what he was at when to made bullies
He took away their brains and substituted big mouths
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Iains
Date: 11 Sep 18 - 04:01 AM

But I am a paid up member of the truth and reconciliation dream team.
I bet you never accused Mandela of being a bully!

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 11 Sep 18 - 04:27 AM

So now the Lib Dems are left wing? Even though they formed a coalition with the Tories? Just shows how far right everything has become.

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 11 Sep 18 - 04:32 AM

Dave, it shows what a waste of time it is trying to hold a conversation with a bunch of cunts whose only interest is in destroying threads.

I'm done here. Have good lives, see you on the other side of The Bridge.

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Iains
Date: 11 Sep 18 - 04:41 AM

He took away their brains and substituted big mouths!

jimmie , you have described yourself to a T. but what this has to do with the subject matter of the thread escapes me.

As the Libdems only have 12 seats out of 650, the only part of the political spectrum they inhabit is a fast evaporating limbo. What is the point of even mentioning them, other than they have the affliction of generally being readers of the guardian?

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 11 Sep 18 - 05:02 AM

Important topics need to be discussed, BWM. If you just treat the trolls as background noise we can still discuss without pandering to their need for attention. If I got off the bus every time a nutter started talking to me I would never get anywhere :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Iains
Date: 11 Sep 18 - 05:18 AM

Well one down. That should clean up the language a bit. With a gag on the troll from Claire serious conversation can continue. Next please!

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Sep 18 - 05:39 AM

" If you just treat the trolls as background noise we can still discuss without pandering to their need for attention"
What else Dave?
It seems to me that we need to look at the political Parties, what they are and what they have become
THe Conservatives have always been what they claim to be - conservers of the status quo.
Thatcher summed up the role of her party beautifully with her "return to "Victorian values"
She was either stupid or honest enough when she laid open her Party's politics by siding with mass murderer Pinochet and describing him "a hero of democracy"

The Labour Party came into being, as its title describes, to represent the interests of working people in a Capitalist society
It was never revolutionary or extreme in any way -it was created by working people out of the Trades Unions as their voice at the beginning of the twentieth century.
Given occasional lapses, it did that pretty well for the first fifty odd years
It ascertained that working people didn't carry the can back after the Wars and virtually reconstructed Britain - free medicine, affordable homes and a way of paying for it without penalising those who couldn't afford to.
It seems to me, my MP, Harold Wilson, was the first to sell out big-time; from there, the party has represented the wealthy and treated politics as a career rather than a calling
Now Labour even has its very own war criminal to put alongside all the Tory ones.
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Sep 18 - 05:45 AM

Each and every one of Iain's last TEN posts in this thread, starting from the 09.01am post on 10 September, has contained condescension, sarcasm or insults, or a combination, along with little or no constructive content, directed at other people posting here.

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Sep 18 - 05:48 AM

I am that nutter, Dave. I talk to everybody. I wonder whether I've ever driven you off a bus...!

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 11 Sep 18 - 05:58 AM

well i can understand BWM - there are times when the level of debate takes a nosedive.

we could all help by depersonalising the debate.

make our points without saying - you're saying that because you're a racist/ fascist/homophobe/ tory or labour twit/etc.

i think this is an interesting subject.

My sister made me understand something years ago. We were talking about newspapers - and she said to the Mirror was always on the side of working class people, and was far more 'on message' than other supposedly leftish papers like The Guardian. But the thing was, by the nature of the beast - its competitor was The Sun - so it had the nudie pics and the celeb chit chat. Nevertheless it voiced opinions, and saw things from a more consistently working class position than other newspapers.

I think the same obtains with politicians. The tories are a write-off. The bottom line is always tax cuts for the rich - because that's what they believe is the basis of a sound economy.

Now do you want a Labour politician who understands and embraces the nature of the task, or this continuing epic of self righteousness and utter disinterest in winning the 43 marginal seats that will mean care for the poorest and most vulnerable in our society.

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 11 Sep 18 - 06:01 AM

I am never driven off the bus, Steve. I'll talk to anyone! Well, apart from the obvious exceptions om the mudcat bus ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Donuel
Date: 11 Sep 18 - 06:19 AM

Trump is harming the dream of America more than any foreign adversary ever could.
16 years of strategic missteps have been followed by the maniacal moves of a man who has savaged America's vital alliances, provided comfort to hostile foreign powers, attacked our intelligence and military and lent a sympathetic ear to Neo Nazis and white racists across the globe.

While I am a progressive I would settle for a middle ground.

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Sep 18 - 06:44 AM

I think that "a middle ground" sums it up neatly. Middle ground means what you want it to mean. I can define middle ground quite easily in terms of my values. But that's just me. I recall someone saying that Thatcher occupied the middle ground. Well, in terms of my middle ground, that makes two lots of middle ground seriously at odds with each other. I'm extremely suspicious of anyone who claims to have the middle ground. When you look at Vince and the Libdems, serial claimants of the middle ground, then consider the disreputable way the party has behaved since 2010, I think it's right to be suspicious. And suspicions are heightened when an incredibly weak party with an incredibly weak leader suggests that he can muster like-minded people around him in the middle ground...

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Iains
Date: 11 Sep 18 - 06:50 AM

"little or no constructive content, directed at other people posting here."

Rather depends upon how you view the counter arguments that make nonsense of much of your dogma I suppose. If you wish to view counter argument as insult, feel free. I would suggest that you have had your own bullying way on all these threads for so long that counter argument is labelled condescension, sarcasm or insults, or a combination. This rather betrays how long you have had your own way here and have been the cause of so many departing. Of course all threads being dominated by the hard left do tend to drive the more rational away.
From looking at your behaviour who can blame them?

Now if you really want to look at a source of insults, invective and defamatory statement you need look no further than jimmie. One could fill entire books with them and there is no point in trying to deny it. The truth is there for all to see.

Meanwhile back to the thread. It seems some labour MPs still have an issue with their fearless leader. Labour MPs loudly remonstrated with Corbyn's spokesman outside a meeting in Parliament, accusing st jeremy of failing to stand up for his own MPs. What a pretty pickle. Even the staunch labour newspaper the daily Mirror gives the issue headline coverage. Another fine mess you have got us into Corbyn!

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 11 Sep 18 - 07:04 AM

Corbyn wiped out the Tory majority last year against all odds. Little wonder that the right wing are running scared of him.

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 11 Sep 18 - 07:29 AM

Do you mean the Right Wing of the Labour Party Dave?
The Centre Left moderates?

None of this stuff comes from outside the Party Dave.
You can not blame the Tories for the turmoil in Labour any more than accuse the Left of causing all the trouble in the Tory Party.
It is all entirely internal.

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Iains
Date: 11 Sep 18 - 07:30 AM

I would have thought the only ones running scared of Corbyn are the Labour party rank and file. They are watching him preside over a fiasco while the party is determined to self destruct. He is re arranging deck chairs on the Titanic. Any party opposing him could only applaud at his antics.

As the mighty bard so eloquently phrased it:

within the hollow crown
That rounds the mortal temples of Corbyn
Keeps Death his court and there the antic sits,
Scoffing his state and grinning at his pomp,
Allowing him a breath, a little scene,
To monarchize, be fear’d and kill with looks,
Infusing him with self and vain conceit,
As if this flesh which walls about our life,
Were brass impregnable, and humour’d thus
Comes at the last and with a little pin
Bores through his castle wall, and farewell Corbyn

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Iains
Date: 11 Sep 18 - 07:40 AM

Here is a link to a blog that makes some extremely interesting observations concerning the central ground of British politics and my feeling is such a seismic change in UK politics is entirely possible. The potential for hard brexit negating a UK exit fee also has some impact on the scenario outlined.


https://hat4uk.wordpress.com/2018/09/11/analysis-how-the-uk-political-establishment-is-eating-itself-why-this-may-not-be-all-goo

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Sep 18 - 07:43 AM

A LOT OF THIS FROM THE TOMMY ROBINSON CONTINGENT _ I THINK
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 11 Sep 18 - 07:44 AM

2017 election seat changes.

Tory. Down 13
Labour. Up 30

Tory party running scared. Right wing media running scared. Right wingers on here running scared. What a loser Corbyn is :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Sep 18 - 09:20 AM

THE SMELLGAPH SAYS ALL THAT NEEDS TO BE SAID
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Sep 18 - 09:20 AM

THE SMELLGAPH SAYS ALL THAT NEEDS TO BE SAID
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Iains
Date: 11 Sep 18 - 09:31 AM

Jim Carroll - PM
Date: 11 Sep 18 - 07:43 AM
yet more oxygen of publicity to tommy robinson!

The weekly worker calls it oxygen of stupidity

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Iains
Date: 11 Sep 18 - 09:42 AM

And of course to counter the non event of party membership numbers(It is the electorate that determine outcomes) there is the competing headline
of what labour moderates can do in a party they consider racist. Both conservative and labour have compelling reasons to split. I would argue previous voting trends are now meaningless. A new centercoalition is a distinct possibility.
Chaos to the left, betrayal from the right. The pot is boiling on the wasted heath.

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Sep 18 - 09:57 AM

THE MORE PUBLICITY THE BETTER
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Iains
Date: 11 Sep 18 - 12:36 PM

Some things must be too deep for others to understand.

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Sep 18 - 01:00 PM

Always happen to oblige
I always think that people like that should never be forgotten
It always comes in handy when people try to insult you to remind them who and what they are
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Sep 18 - 01:00 PM

Always happen to oblige
I always think that people like that should never be forgotten
It always comes in handy when people try to insult you to remind them who and what they are
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Sep 18 - 01:09 PM

Interesting news tonight
Police Commissioner Cressida Cressida Dick has slammed the Government for refusing to sufficiently remunerate police police at the worst of times
Se describes the refusal as a PUNCH ON THE NOSE

In the light of threats of demonstrations (organised by an American woman resident of County Clare) Trump has chickened out of his planned visit to Ireland
They don't make Presidents like they used to
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Sep 18 - 01:09 PM

Interesting news tonight
Police Commissioner Cressida Cressida Dick has slammed the Government for refusing to sufficiently remunerate police police at the worst of times
Se describes the refusal as a PUNCH ON THE NOSE

In the light of threats of demonstrations (organised by an American woman resident of County Clare) Trump has chickened out of his planned visit to Ireland
They don't make Presidents like they used to
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 11 Sep 18 - 01:19 PM

Tory. Down 13
Labour. Up 30

Labour still lost Dave, despite the most self destructive Tory campaign and manifesto ever seen.
Labour could well win the next election but too soon to celebrate yet I think.

Indie, 6 days ago,
"The Britain Elects poll tracker, which takes into account all results meeting British Polling Council standards, shows Labour with a one-point lead over the Tories.
It suggests a general election would produce a hung parliament with the Tories as the largest party."
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/labour-conservative-party-poll-survation-antisemitism-brexit-theresa-may-a8523411.html

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Sep 18 - 01:44 PM

"...there is the competing headline of what labour moderates can do in a party they consider racist."

Well the cheerleader of these "moderates" seems to be that arch-moderate Tony Blair. He was so moderate that he lied to the country about WMDs, took us into a useless war in Iraq, covered up the death of David Kelly, got into bed with arch-warmonger Bush, sent our troops to Afghanistan and was largely responsible, along with puppetmaster Bush, for the deaths of hundreds of thousands of civilians in Iraq and Afghanistan and for wrecking those countries. Oh, and most of those "moderates" voted for that war. With moderates like those, who needs extremists!

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Sep 18 - 01:51 PM

2010 General Election Results
Party                  Seats    Gain
Conservative       306       100
Labour                  258       4
Liberal Democrat   57              8
Democratic Unionist 8              0

HOW MAY HANGS ON BY HER HGHLY-POLISHED FINGERNAILS

UNITED WE STAND !!

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Sep 18 - 01:51 PM

2010 General Election Results
Party                  Seats    Gain
Conservative       306       100
Labour                  258       4
Liberal Democrat   57              8
Democratic Unionist 8              0

HOW MAY HANGS ON BY HER HGHLY-POLISHED FINGERNAILS

UNITED WE STAND !!

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Iains
Date: 11 Sep 18 - 02:32 PM

Anyone that wants to make a forecast of voting behaviour, should a snap election be called, is either very brave or very stupid. The pre election polls last time around were off by a country mile and with potential civil war in both parties the outcome would be anybodies guess.

"It always comes in handy when people try to insult you to remind them who and what they are" INDEED!
        Iains - PM
Date: 11 Sep 18 - 12:36 PM

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Sep 18 - 02:39 PM

09 Sep 18 - 09:51 AM

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: peteglasgow
Date: 11 Sep 18 - 03:08 PM

just a question, jim- why do you repeat your posts so often?

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Iains
Date: 11 Sep 18 - 03:17 PM

"Well the cheerleader of these "moderates" seems to be that arch-moderate Tony Blair."

I think the laddie has lost all street cred these days. The sort of center alliance I envisage would   have no place for bliar blair. Who on earth, even in the more deluded corners of the labour party, is going to give a vote to him?

Even the monster raving loony party would disown him!

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 11 Sep 18 - 08:05 PM

I suppose if Corbyn offered the Lib Dems a second referendum.

They could take this lot down tomorrow.

I'm not saying its right. I voted leave , but wouldn't it make sense?

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Sep 18 - 09:25 PM

I have my severe doubts. Not just because I oppose referendums on principle, which I do, but because the result would be very close, one way or the other, and, as such, would satisfy no-one and would be just as divisive as last time. What we need is for politicians of all colours to stop arsing about and act on what they already know, which is that brexit is a bloody disaster. And ditch it.

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Sep 18 - 02:31 AM

"I suppose if Corbyn offered the Lib Dems a second referendum they could take this lot down tomorrow."
Now that's a thought, especially as th TUC ad even senior members of the Tory Party are now discussing it as a possibility
It is quite likely that, by the Brexit time large numbers of the Government will be forming their opposition Party
I wonder who May will bribe then - pity the BNP and Ukip are dead in the water !!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 12 Sep 18 - 02:54 AM

Let's reclaim 200!

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Sep 18 - 03:33 AM

"Let's reclaim 200"
According to the very handy and entertaining little pocketbook 'Brockhampton's Reference -Chronology of British History' nothing happened between the years 197 (Battle of Lyons) and 210 (Emperor Severus strengthened Hadrian's Wall)
You can have that one with pleasure Dave

See y'all when I get back from my good film overdose in Galway on Friday
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Iains
Date: 12 Sep 18 - 04:03 AM

Guido the constant font of wisdom has the following on repeats:


https://order-order.com/2018/09/11/peoples-vote-no-second-chances-or-re-runs/

Do you really think banging your head against a wall is going to hurt any less,a second time around?

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 12 Sep 18 - 04:11 AM

There is a plaque on a cottage near us that says 'On the 4th October 1793 nothing whatsoever happened here. :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Sep 18 - 05:20 AM

Misread your posting as 'plague' - thought to myself 'little wonder nothing happened there'
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 Sep 18 - 05:52 AM

Indie yesterday,

"Following the MPs’ meeting, one Labour MP told The Independent: “Jeremy is vulnerable unless he acts on this, because Rosie (Duffield, Labour MP) is not a factionalist in any way and is being targeted purely because of speaking up on antisemitism.” "

"Mr Leslie (Labour MP) said his party had been infiltrated by the “intolerant hard left” and the move had been “orchestrated nationally”."
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/labour-party-latest-jeremy-corbyn-antisemitism-row-backbench-mps-rosie-duffield-a8531881.html

Again, please do not claim that such criticism comes from me or anyone outside the Labour Party.

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Iains
Date: 12 Sep 18 - 06:13 AM

The de-selection express is not helping any either!

Now the police are involved!


https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2018/09/11/police-called-labours-deselection-row-menacing-cards-placed/?li_source=LI&li_med

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 12 Sep 18 - 06:22 AM

In the meanwhile, back in the real world, 50 Tory MPs have laid bare their plans to unseat Theresa May. At this rate the middle ground will have shifted so far to the right that it will have tipped itself off the edge. Hopefully :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Iains
Date: 12 Sep 18 - 06:34 AM

Good luck to the 50. Hopefully they will sabotage the existing betrayal and get brexit back on track. No need to worry about labour. Their problems are ever increasing.

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 Sep 18 - 06:36 AM

If anyone wishes to make antisemitism a subject for discussion, START A BLOODY THREAD ON IT. Keep your bloody poison out of mine, please. And I'm talking to you, Hertford troll.

And, for those whose English is a little inadequate, votes of no confidence in constituencies are not the same thing as deselection. Thank you.

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Iains
Date: 12 Sep 18 - 07:05 AM

I have just seen an ostrich!

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: bobad
Date: 12 Sep 18 - 07:40 AM

targeted purely because of speaking up on antisemitism.

Hmm..........this sounds very familiar, wonder where we've seen it before? Could it have been from Mudcat's own “intolerant hard left”?

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 Sep 18 - 07:57 AM

In the meanwhile, back in the real world, 50 Tory MPs have laid bare their plans to unseat Theresa May.

Both parties' problems are real Dave.
It is only your gang that denies that Labour even has one.

It was one of your own MPs who just said that his party had been infiltrated by the “intolerant hard left” and the move had been “orchestrated nationally”.

It appears that your leadership want to reclaim the Centre ground in the party, and stamp it out!

Steve, again according to your own MPs A/S is at the centre of this problem. The moderate Centre Left Labour MPs hate it and object to the Hard Left of the party promoting it. That is what is being used against them.

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Iains
Date: 12 Sep 18 - 08:01 AM

It is getting worse for Corbyn. His private secretary turned down for commons security pass!


https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/labour-jeremy-corbyn-aide-iram-awan-working-at-parliament-without-security-clearance-rtm67sx6

Totally outrageous!

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Iains
Date: 12 Sep 18 - 08:06 AM

It is a clear breach of Parliamentary security procedures as illustrated by the huff post.


https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/jeremy-corbyn-westminster-security-pass_uk_5b98088de4b0511db3e6c1e6?50c

It seems jeremy is taking the P**S!

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 12 Sep 18 - 08:14 AM

Still back in the real world. Boris caught out shagging the wife of a Sun columnist who supported him on brexit and his power plays. Oh the poetic justice :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Iains
Date: 12 Sep 18 - 08:28 AM

What is the major issue? an mp having a shag, or an mp actively encouraging the breach of security and procedure in the commons?

One is possibly a crime, the other, who realistically cares.
That is the reality    of the real world.

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Iains
Date: 12 Sep 18 - 08:32 AM

If adultery was grounds for dismissing an MP, the House of Commons would be hard put to generate a quorum. Get real!

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 12 Sep 18 - 08:39 AM

Balance of probabilities.

Is Corbyn's aide a security threat? Unlikely

Is the man making a play to be prime minister shagging the wife of one of his most ardent supporters? Definitely.

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Iains
Date: 12 Sep 18 - 08:47 AM

You are a fully functioning member of the security forces? No? I thought not. Therefore your opinion on the matter is based on total ignorance of the true facts.
A security pass was not issued because of a perceived threat. This is what happens in the real world. What happens in your lefty, loopy, la la
land is of zero consequence.

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 12 Sep 18 - 08:48 AM

the house of commons is a weird beautiful place. they should just use it as a museum - it has loads of treasures and paintings everyone ought to see.

we need a new parliament building. efficient , roomy, technologically up to date. then there wouldn't be security cock ups.

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Iains
Date: 12 Sep 18 - 09:13 AM

Even modern buildings need proper security. I once worked in a building where you had a pass operated stainless steel turnstile allowing entry into a razor wire encircled compound, you were then subjected to the real security, far more stringent than any airport. I was always struck by the signs on the gate. No smoking, No cameras, No guns.

Remember lax security enabled the murder of Airey Middleton Sheffield Neave, DSO, OBE, MC, when he was blown up leaving the house of commons..

Some here apparently take a frivolous view of security. They are lucky to live in a country where such concerns generally do not impact the general public. If only other countries offered a similar degree of safety.

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 12 Sep 18 - 09:25 AM

Back to earth rather than making false assumptions about the security clearance of fellow posters.

Why would anyone trust a man who shags the wife of another man, who supported him in a power play, to be prime minister of this country? Johnson, Rees-Mogg, Trump, Farage. They are all examples of how far the political spectrum has swung to the right. They all think they can get away with shitting on people because that has now become the norm. The sooner we are rid of them the better.

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Iains
Date: 12 Sep 18 - 09:33 AM

Who would trust a man that ignores all the security protocols of the house of commons. Loose morals do not kill people. Loose security does!

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Raedwulf
Date: 12 Sep 18 - 10:24 AM

Wow! I don't come back for a couple of days, and... Blame me, Steve. It must be my fault, cos it all went poisonous after my last response. Sorry, mate!

On the other hand, maybe y'all should take a break. In most cases, from your own invective. In the case of Keith, like everyone else, I hope the break is in your internet connection (bet y'all were expecting summat nastier :p ) & I hope it's permanent. I cannot remember a thread where I've seen your name that you haven't polluted (or should that have been ", which you haven't", Steve ;-) ). You remind me of Vorbis in Pratchett's Small Gods. I doubt you'll understand, but others here will get it...

Iain - no, loose security doesn't kill people, any more than loose (for a given value of 'loose') morals (for a given, even more arguable, value of 'morals') kill people. People (or accidents; they do still happen) kill people. "Loose" simply allows the opportunity to occur. but if you think that Bj BJ is a fit person to become PM of the UK, I think Boris the Clown becoming Tory leader would be a god-send for Lab. Even more than JC has been for Con!

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 12 Sep 18 - 10:30 AM

Hey, good to see you back, Raedwulf. Funnily enough I am just re-reading 'Jingo' and recognise quite a few of the characters as having a presence on here as well. :-D

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: peteglasgow
Date: 12 Sep 18 - 11:04 AM

we are all suffering from gaps in our personal security by losing thousands of police, prison staff, and probation officers. we are less secure when our health service is barely functioning in many parts and - in the long term - when our education services are starved of cash and schools forced into ridiculous academy chains. i feel more secure when we aren't threatening vulnerable people with cutting their meagre resources and when there are less homeless or hungry children.

at a more local level i don't feel too secure when i see idiots going round with a pumped up bodies with beer bellies (odd that, eh?) and tattoos expecting me to talk seriously about trump, JRM or tommy robinson.

i was more secure when this was a kinder nation and even tories used to pretend to have concern for the less well-off. when ken clarke was a nasty right wing bogey man - now he seems like the last sane voice in the tory party - the 'centre ground' has moved a long way

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Iains
Date: 12 Sep 18 - 02:33 PM

And another one bites the dust! A second aide to st jeremy has been discovered swanning round parliament without a security pass. Once may be an oversight, twice is unforgivable.

https://www.ft.com/content/6f9e78fa-b674-11e8-b3ef-799c8613f4a1

The Commons Authorities have launched an Investigation Into the Corbyn Security Pass 'Breaches'

Labour: The party that just keeps giving!(To the Tories)

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Raedwulf
Date: 12 Sep 18 - 03:03 PM

Why is it unforgivable? Has someone died? You were the one that claimed loose security kills people, so who's dead? No-one? What a fucking surprise...

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 12 Sep 18 - 03:28 PM

Oh come on! On the day relatives are being asked to watch footage of the mayhem caused by a nutter outside the House of Commons - what does security matter, they ask.

Right wing, left wing or some as big as your head - security of our seat of government MATTERS!

Even more a reason to abandon this great old building, which is virtually indefensible - and put parliament somewhere where we can check who comes in, goes out and approaches it.

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Iains
Date: 12 Sep 18 - 03:34 PM

Big Al Whittle.Well said! Security is not a political party issue.

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Iains
Date: 12 Sep 18 - 03:44 PM

While Corbyn may not care about suicide bombers gaining access to his constituency office because of his cavalier approach to security, it is a very different matter in the Houses of Parliament. Like anybody else he owes a duty of care to his colleagues and all other parliamentary staff. His total lack of concern and his contempt for procedures gives a fair indication of what he thinks of those around him in the house.

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 12 Sep 18 - 03:48 PM

Funny, I was going to say the same of Boris and his dodgy dealings even before he was caught with his pants down.

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 12 Sep 18 - 04:07 PM

Boris is dodgy. Live with it. However people like him and will vote for him. They don't trust him, or think he's a decent bloke. they just like him. Like Tebbit said, you'd enjoy having a drink with Boris.

Attacking him isn't going to solve our problems.

Either Jeremy needs to start studying likeability with great assiduity. or get replaced by someone who does it naturally.

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Iains
Date: 12 Sep 18 - 04:22 PM

A recent headline:
MI5 chief summons Jeremy Corbyn for a 'facts of life' briefing on Britain's terror threat amid criticism of Labour leader's approach to national security.   Corbyn summoned to Thames House for a briefing with MI5 boss Andrew Parker.    Security chiefs are concerned Labour leader does not understand the threat
    But the briefing has been postponed while Corbyn tackles anti-Semitism crisis

By Tim Sculthorpe, Deputy Political Editor For Mailonline

Published: 10:01, 2 September 2018 | Updated: 12:18, 2 September 2018


I think the only thing to take away from this about Corbyn is:
Security chiefs are concerned the Labour leader does not understand the threat

Makesa person wonder what else he does not comprehend!

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 12 Sep 18 - 04:49 PM

Why should anyone have to live with the likes of Johnson, Farage or Trump, Al? They are a disgrace and telling people to 'live with it' is just accepting that they should be allowed to get away with it.

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 12 Sep 18 - 05:08 PM

we have to live with the fuckers because people vote for them.

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 Sep 18 - 06:16 PM

The only person I've heard making such a big thing about this alleged security breach (and do look into it, chaps, before you get carrried away with the idea that Labour Party secretaries are going to show up to work in suicide vests) is Iains. Reading his posts makes me question my own sanity. Or, rather, his. He does appear to have a problem that needs addressing...seriously...

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Iains
Date: 13 Sep 18 - 03:26 AM

Strange it makes the pages of every UK newspaper and more than a few international ones this morning. Are you going to deny The Commons Authorities have launched an Investigation Into the Corbyn Security Pass 'Breaches? Having fun in la la land?

Even the Irish seem worried by him. Here is a little snippet found today:


www.taoiseach.gov.ie/!L81XQP

The rise of Jeremy Corbyn is now the chief national security threat to the Republic of Ireland. It is also the main economic threat to our country. )

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Iains
Date: 13 Sep 18 - 03:35 AM

For the ostrich of the far left:

https://www.thenational.ae/world/jeremy-corbyn-investigated-over-aide-s-security-breach-1.769722

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 13 Sep 18 - 03:50 AM

Before we go any further down this route I would point out that this is not a specific Corbyn issue but seems to be a general House of Commons thing

Probe into security breach

The only reason it has received more attention recently is because it is Corbyn. The establishment is running scared so anything will do...

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Iains
Date: 13 Sep 18 - 04:06 AM

Hardly in the same league! For the opposition party leader to actively condone deceit is a tad more serious than someone fraudulently using another's security pass.
You, like certain others would like to dismiss it as a non event.
Perhaps you also dismiss the need for a valid ticket to ride a bus or train as well. Such a minor thing after all.
Do you think laws, rules and regulations do not apply to you or the extreme left of the labour party? Such lies the route to anarchy and madness!


Luckily others regard all security breaches as of significance and will act accordingly. This could well lead to the fall of corbyn.

Good to see your compatriot in arms cannot fault the argument so drops back to the usual trick of insulting the intelligence and querying the sanity of the poster. Rather emphasizes the validity of my argument, doncha think?

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 13 Sep 18 - 04:27 AM

So you are already know that the outcome of the enquiry is that he actively condones deceit? Or is that just the gutter press headline? We do already know that Johnson was shagging his friends wife. I suppose that could well lead to the fall of Johnson. We have the same hopes. Just with different people :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 Sep 18 - 04:32 AM

Adultery no longer brings down politicians Dave, you old prude.

The security story has appeared in the Indie and the Times, not just the "gutter press."

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Iains
Date: 13 Sep 18 - 04:49 AM

Corbyn has been in Parliament long enough to be aware of rules, procedures and protocols. He cannot fail to be aware of the fact no pass was issued to some of his own staff members (Otherwise why were they escorted everywhere in order to flout both the rules, and intent of the rules?), therefore he condones deceit. Either you accept that or the alternative is to accept corbyn is an imbecile. Your choice!

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Sep 18 - 04:54 AM

"Strange it makes the pages of every UK newspaper and more than a few international ones this morning."

Well yes, considering that's it's such a piffling little issue, I agree that it's strange. Why, it just about made it on to page 20 in the Guardian. Warning: blink and you'll miss it...

"The rise of Jeremy Corbyn is now the chief national security threat to the Republic of Ireland. It is also the main economic threat to our country."

Yep. And Mother Teresa said that abortion was the greatest threat to world peace, and I'm the Queen of Sheba.

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 13 Sep 18 - 04:58 AM

While I was working in a place that I cannot even mention I was accompanied (by armed personnel as it happens) until my security clearance came through. And as I said, it would have been a non story if it had been anyone other than Corbyn. BTW, The Times is owned by Rupert Murdoch and even with its illustrious history has sunk as low as the rest.

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Sep 18 - 04:59 AM

"... therefore he condones deceit. Either you accept that or the alternative is to accept corbyn is an imbecile. Your choice!"

So hundreds of MPs involved in making false expenses claims are condoning deceit or are imbeciles. Your choice! And all those leavers who supported Boris's bus slogan...deceit or imbecility? Your choice!

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Iains
Date: 13 Sep 18 - 05:06 AM

How can a person have   a sensible discussion on issues when the opposing side try to use adultery as a wet cod to beat the tories with?
Adultery became a non issue shortly after the Profumo case half a century ago. Really boys you need to up the ante a bit.

You are so busy yipping away to your own propaganda that the underlying reality escapes you, those people you so detest were put in place by a majority that do not share your views or beliefs.
Let me emhasize this again for the more challenged amongst you.
They were put in place by a majority that do not share your views or beliefs.

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Iains
Date: 13 Sep 18 - 05:10 AM

"Why, it just about made it on to page 20 in the Guardian."

The surprise of the day is that it made it to the gruniard at all!

After all a leftist rag must support the leader.

Perhaps they felt it was too major an issue to totally ignore!

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Sep 18 - 05:13 AM

The Guardian is no supporter of Corbyn.

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 13 Sep 18 - 05:20 AM

I just completed a survey which included the question 'Who would you prefer as the next prime minister, Sajid Javid or Boris Johnson?'. I think it is the first time I have favoured Javid in anything.

Shagging your friends wife is not just adultery. It is not only betrays the trust of his wife but betrays that of a third party. Something that anyone in public office, let alone a potential prime minister, should ever do. If he can lie on that scale, he will lie about anything.

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 13 Sep 18 - 05:23 AM

And if I remember rightly we currently have a government with no overall majority who did not receive the votes of the majority of the electorate.

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Iains
Date: 13 Sep 18 - 05:32 AM

"Unfortunately, in 2017 infidelity became even more common, perhaps spurred on by modern technology and online websites for married people wanting to play away.

Recent statistics reveal that in over a third of marriages, one or both partners admit to cheating at some point in the relationship.

And a whopping 45% of men and 22% of women say they have cheated on their current partner, according to a survey commissioned by Italian website incontri-extraconiugali.com."

The above statistics make your false outrage look even more ridiculous than usual.

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Iains
Date: 13 Sep 18 - 05:39 AM

Gladstone, Clinton, Major?????

Tum tee tum tee tum.............

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/women/sex/9810955/Are-adulterous-MPs-now-acceptable.html

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 13 Sep 18 - 05:48 AM

Are you trying to say that 45% of potential prime ministers are untrustworthy? Little wonder the electorate want a change...

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Iains
Date: 13 Sep 18 - 06:00 AM

No. I am saying the extreme left cabal monopolizing this thread are apparently unable to argue their way out of a wet paper bag.

" A spokesman for Jeremy Corbyn yesterday told us that while the party did not comment on “staffing matters” (he said it seven times), it was aware “of all the rules in relation to parliamentary passes”. “We deal with them every day, we are aware of the procedures and respect them,” he said. Yesterday’s investigation was launched after Tory MP Leo Doherty wrote to the Serjeant-at-Arms to demand a probe. Tory Party chairman Brandon Lewis told the Daily Mail last night: “This clear breach of security not only puts Parliament at risk, it also raises serious questions about Jeremy Corbyn’s judgment and integrity.”

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 13 Sep 18 - 06:17 AM

The truth of this matter is this, from the Guardian (as has been said already, no friend of Jeremy Corbyn):

"However, a Labour source said: “We have not been told that any member of staff has been refused a pass or any reasons for why any pass may not have yet been granted.”

With the process of completing the security checks for a pass sometimes taking many weeks and even months, some MPs concede privately that it is not unusual for staffers to start their job before a permanent pass has been issued."

So a non-story given undue prominence by tories and their fellow-travelers in the press.

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 13 Sep 18 - 06:27 AM

Thank you, David C. That confirms what I said earlier. The only reason it has made it in the press and into the minds of the right wing on here is that it involved Corbyn. They are seriously running scared of the man they tell us is unelectable. Long may they shit themselves :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Iains
Date: 13 Sep 18 - 06:32 AM

Nice bit of spin there!
However many sources state that Iram Awan appears to have failed security checks and has not been issued with an official pass.

We will soon find out who is telling the porkies, will we not?

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 13 Sep 18 - 06:43 AM

We certainly will and, in the meanwhile, the right wing shall continue their campaign of accusation and innuendo. The deeper they dig the better as far as I am concerned. They could end up buried :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Iains
Date: 13 Sep 18 - 06:48 AM

And we can rely on Guido to tell it how it is. Study the attached questionaire. IT would take years for some the corbyn dream team to give comprehensive answers that would satisfy the security forces.

https://order-order.com/2018/09/12/another-top-corbyn-aide-working-without-security-clearance/

I recommend a study of the comments section. What middle britain really thinks!

Here is one:
"Question 30 asks if applicants have ever been associated with people or groups who have “INTENDED TO OVERTHROW or undermine Parliamentary democracy by political, industrial, or VIOLENT MEANS?”

John McDonnell has called for "insurrection" against the Tories.

Why does he have a security clearance?

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Sep 18 - 07:00 AM

Good heavens. He's invoked the Tory chairman, the Daily Mail, Guido Doodah and Guido's followers (who he claims are the voice of Middle Britain, whatever that is -approximately Wolverhampton, maybe?) and it isn't even dinner time yet! Talk about confirmation bias...

The great thing about the right-wing press and bloggers is that there are so many to choose from to tell you like you think and hope it is. An honest-to-goodness leftie such as me good self could almost feel jealous...

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 13 Sep 18 - 07:04 AM

Didn't May try to undermine parliamentary democracy by passing a bill without voting on it? I guess that's her security clearance revoked then...

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 13 Sep 18 - 07:15 AM

I wonder how they will try to blame this on Jeremy Corbyn? While still denying that the shift to the right has not happeneded here?

Tories accused of propping up the far right in Europe

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 13 Sep 18 - 07:22 AM

Iains now invokes the view from the burghers of gammonshire.

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Sep 18 - 07:40 AM

It's worse than that, Dave. The Tories are affiliated to the European Conservatives And Reformists Group. Supporting the racist Orban is one thing, but you wanna read what the views of some of those Tory affiliates are...including some meaty stuff THAT WE WILL NOT DISCUSS IN THIS THREAD! Oh yes, read a bit of that and you'll soon hear the grinding sound of stones being rolled across the entrances of whited sepulchres...

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 13 Sep 18 - 07:59 AM

But, Steve, there has been no shift to the right. Everyone knows that. It has been decreed by, errr, the right wing press, errr...

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 13 Sep 18 - 08:06 AM

"the voice of Middle Britain, whatever that is -approximately Wolverhampton, maybe?) and it isn't even dinner time yet! Talk about confirmation bias..."

Meriden, in the Metropolitan Borough of Solihull, IIRC.

I know I've left, but I was lurking and couldn't resist! OK lads, that's it, back on your heads....

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Sep 18 - 08:33 AM

Let's occupy Meriden! Let's take back the middle ground! Cut immigration from Solihull and Coventry! Take back control! Declare UDI! I've got the paint pot, now where's that bloody bus!

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 13 Sep 18 - 08:38 AM

Meriden is just the middle of England! No good taking it until the Scots declare UDI. Centre of Britain, well, mainland Britain, is Haltwhistle in Northumberland. Why aye me canny lad.

See, we already have a breakaway claim the middle party!

:D

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Sep 18 - 08:45 AM

Haltwhistle? Mind the Gap...

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 13 Sep 18 - 11:02 AM

Aaaaahh!

Exit stage left, blushing all the way.....

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Iains
Date: 13 Sep 18 - 12:40 PM

Exit stage left, blushing all the way.....

You guys need to! What was it Oscar Wilde said about Corbyn and his band of merry men?

"The unspeakable in pursuit of the unelectable!"

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 13 Sep 18 - 02:48 PM

What Oscar Wilde said about Corbyn? Not sure about that. As William Shakespeare said, you can't believe everything you see on the internet.

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Iains
Date: 13 Sep 18 - 03:11 PM

You sir, are a spoil sport!

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 13 Sep 18 - 04:49 PM

Thank you. I do my best :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: peteglasgow
Date: 13 Sep 18 - 05:16 PM

i'm just wondering how we all feel about tory MEPs supporting swedish and hungarian fascists? anti-jewish? anti muslim?

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Sep 18 - 05:27 PM

That's what I was referring to in my post of 07.40am, Pete. Sheds a whole new light on all the rubbishy invective and lies directed at Labour by the hypocrites on this forum, eh? However, as it won't confirm their bias, I suppose they won't look into it...

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 14 Sep 18 - 03:51 AM

'i'm just wondering how we all feel about tory MEPs supporting swedish and hungarian fascists? anti-jewish? anti muslim?'

Well if they get them pregnant - it would be the honourable thing to do...

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Iains
Date: 14 Sep 18 - 04:00 AM

"I suppose they won't look into it..."


Unlike Labour, who started an investigation into "that cannot be mentioned" and promptly dropped it.

Too much incriminating evidence I suppose?

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 14 Sep 18 - 05:34 AM

The Chakrabiti inquiry that was fully reported, concluded and recommendations acted upon? Commissioned by the only party to have ever done anything on that scale in answer to allegations of racism? The investigation that the Tories would not dare to undertake into their own racism as they already know what the findings would be? You mean that one?

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 Sep 18 - 05:49 AM

The hypocritical Labour-bashers here would do well to look into those extremely shady Tory links to right-wing, racist groups in Europe. Then we might just get a welcome moment of silence from them. I s'pose it could be the subject of a thread, but it would attract a ton of whataboutery and would last approx 2min 25 sec. These gentlemen on my right don't like it up 'em, Dave.

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: KarenH
Date: 14 Sep 18 - 09:18 AM

Interesting comment on loss of hoped for middle ground in this piece

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/sep/13/palestinians-still-face-apartheid-israel-25-years-after-oslo-accord

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Sep 18 - 11:10 AM

Karen
This remarkable multi-signature letter in yesterday's Times makes the Guardian point and as to date nobody who has accused Labour of the crime "that cannot be mentioned" has steadfastly refused to specify what guilty of, it has to be assumed that it is criticism of Israel
Nice to see that the monologues by the Tommy Robinson contingent are still being treated with the contempt they deserve
Good to be back
Jim

Oslo and Palestine
Sir, It is painful now to recall the hope we had in the Oslo Accords. Twenty- five years on, cynicism and resignation rule. The Israeíi occupation since 1967 has become so entrenched that it is hard to see beyond it. There is a better way, one that does not subordinate the right to self-determination of one people to the security and territorial expansion of another.
Trump’s “deal of the century” will not propose equal rights for Israelis and Palestinians. We do. Thus we endorse the Balfour Centenary Declaration (balfourproject.org), and urge the British government to recognise the state of Palestine alongside Israel on pre-June 1967 lines; uphold international law in deed, including the 4th Geneva Convention that Britain drafted and ratified after the Second World War; give practical effect to UN Security Council Resolution 2334, condemning illegal Israeli settlements; and champion the Arab Peace Initiative, offering regional normality to Israel in return for Palestinian freedom.
Britain and France shaped today’s Middle East. By recognising Palestine now, Britain will advance the long-term peaceful coexistence of both peoples in the Holy Land, strengthen regional stability and bolster the UK’s own national security.
EMILY THORNBERRY,
MP; JACK STRAW;
SIR NICHOLAS SOAMES,
MP; SIR HUGO SWIRE,
MP; DOMINIC GRIEVE,
MP; LEILA SANSOUR, CEO, Open Bethlehem;
RAJA SHEHADEH, author and lawyer;
ILAN BARUCH, former Israeli ambassador to South Africa;
ALON LEIL, former director- general of the Israeli Foreign Ministry
Plus a further 70 signatories at thetimes.co.uk/letters

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Sep 18 - 11:11 AM

NEARLY FORGOT
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 Sep 18 - 11:30 AM

The reason I didn't want it mentioned, Jim, is that you-know-who is very keen to infest any thread in which the words "Labour" or "Corbyn" are mentioned with his sad obsession. A great thing about that letter is that it gives the lie to the notion that people standing up for Palestinians and highlighting the Israeli regime's misdeeds are somehow "leftie extremists." In fact, I'd say that the list of signatories represent what some people's idea of the "middle ground" might be...There are rascals in that list but it shows that there are people of all persuasions willing to think for themselves and follow the road less travelled, which is what flocks of sheep don't do...

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Sep 18 - 01:06 PM

"The reason I didn't want it mentioned, Jim,"
It appears to be an unavoidable part of the debate
I watched with growing anger Question Time last night - particularly the lady who started on "we must start facing the facts about Muslim terrorism"
It really is time that somebody started to debate the likely causes of the growth of terrorism rather than making it an aspect of culture

I was taken with this piece while I was away

Irish Times, yesterday

NIGHTMARE SCENARIO FOR EUROPEAN ELECTIONS IS CLEARLY ON CARDS
A victory for a far-right candidate to succeed Jean-Claude Juncker could prompt a major political crisis

With elections to the European Parlia¬ment looming in May 2019, the plenary this week in Stras¬bourg, the beginning of the last session before MEPs face the people, was inevitably dominat¬ed by a determination to make the place appear relevant, energetic and sensitive to popular concerns.
But underlying much of the discussions was the recurring theme of the seemingly irresistible electoral rise of the populist, nationalist right and the neo-fascist far-right.
That reality was confirmed by the success of the Sweden Democrats last weekend, although the gains made by the party were less dramatic than predicted.
Parliament’s fightback was reflected in a first for MEPs; the move to invoke against Hungary the EU’s article 7
disciplinary procedure to deal with member states who stray from European values and the rule of law. It saw the country’s defiant and combative prime minister, Viktor Orbán, come to Strasbourg to engage with MEPs in person.
As MEPs voted yesterday by a substantial majority to invoke article 7, what was clear was the depth of anger at both Orbán’s determination, in the name of Christian purity, to keep out migrants, and his attacks on freedom of the press, NGOs, educational rights and democratic values.

SERIOUS EMBARRASSMENT
That is the case even within the centre-right European Peo¬ple’s Party (EPP), where the membership of Orbán’s Fidesz party is a cause of serious embarrassment.
The party’s expulsion from the EPP is now believed
inevitable. Manfred Weber, the EPP’s group leader and Spitzenkandidat (candidate for the European Commission presidency), warned that “We expect the Hungarian govern¬ment to make a move towards their EU partners ... Funda¬mental values must be respect¬ed by all.”
The EPP’s reluctance so far to deal robustly with the Hungarian problem is in no small measure a function of the political landscape emerging for the European Parliament elections and notably the growth of the right.
The Spitzenkandidat system, under which European Parliament party groups name their lead candidate for the commission job and then expect reluctant national leaders to forsake their own prerogative to endorse the candidate who emerges with the largest vote, is a natural fit for the EPP as the parliament’s largest force.
But with the emergence of Emmanuel Macron in France eclipsing its French mem- ber-party, Les Républicains, the loss of the Hungarian bloc could also squeeze the party
electorally and jeopardise its position, not to mention Weber’s ambitions.
Indeed a nightmare Spitzen¬kandidat scenario is being widely touted - that a cross-Eu- rope alliance of the nationalist and far-right parties around their own Spitzenkandidat could, with a fair wind, pass out the EPP and other parties to present European leaders with a Eurosceptic commission president nominee.

"COALITION
Some suggest that a candidate best able to carry that flag for the right would be Italy’s deputy prime minister and interior minister, Matteo Salvini, the leader of the Liga anti-immigrant party, which is in coalition with the Five Star Movement.
Salvini clearly has a Europe¬an vocation and, observers suggest, could easily be prevailed on to stand. He recently met Orbán to discuss a joint anti-immigrant front and claimed they were “walking down the same path”. He then signed up in Brussels to join “the Movement”, the organisa¬tion that former Trump chief strategist Steve Bannon hopes will provide a forum for Europe’s divided far-right.
An expanded populist representation in the parlia¬ment will make building legislative alliances more difficult and would promise a turbulent term. But a victory for their Spitzenkandidat nomination, whether Salvini or another, would certainly prompt a major political crisis. Such a candidate would prove completely unacceptable to European leaders, who would certainly find another candi¬date for the commission job.
The parliament has pledged, however, that it will not ratify any commission president who does not emerge from the Spitzenkandidat system. How a centre-right/left majority of MEPs, which will certainly emerge from the elections, will execute a U-turn to block a Salvini-like commission candidacy will be interesting.

IMPASSIONED APPEAL
This week in Strasbourg also saw an impassioned appeal from the Greek prime minister, Alexis Tsipras, to “progres¬sive” parties to form a common platform for the elections. Tsipras said it “will be more than just one more election, it will be a combat on the basis of principles and values”, with pro-EU forces squaring off against “extreme neoliberal¬ism and far-right populism”.
“We should not let Europe slide back into the past.”
His call is unlikely to be heeded."

Before the Little Brits make this a 'European' issue, yesterday it emerged that Jewish Leaders have CONDEMN MAY FOR BACKING FASCIST ORBAN
Let's see if the Tories hold an enquiry into antisemitism !!

I had a blazing argument with MacColl and Charles Parker once when I suggested that, after the Holocaust, the Wester nations would never let it happen again
It seems to be I was wrong
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Iains
Date: 15 Sep 18 - 03:14 AM

Like brexiteers, many others in europe want to rein back the creeping federalism agenda of the EU. Of course the trendy blowhards of the left like to pretend this growing number of dissenters are aberrations and like to hide the reality by labeling them as racists, fascists, stupid, or any other gormless epithet that springs to mind.
Far more of a danger to peace is the loopy left, having had past members such as Foot on the payroll of the KGB (as a spy or useful idiot is as yet uncertain), Not forgetting VCorbyn is being investigated by the CPS for hate crime.
Not forgetting of course, additional lunacy by corby's clots, as shown below:
"Corbyn ally tells British workers to launch a 'luxury Communist revolution' where jobs would be abolished thanks to robots

    MP Chris Williamson said it was time to reward the hard work of ordinary people
    He urged them to make Jeremy Corbyn PM to achieve 'luxury Communism'

As the saying goes: They walk amongst us!"

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Sep 18 - 05:05 AM

Go and have a little lie down, why don't you.

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Sep 18 - 05:13 AM

But, Steve, there has been no shift to the right. Everyone knows that.

Not here. No Far right party has a single MP here.
Meanwhile in the EU the Far Right is on the rise everywhere and is already a signicant force in many state Parliaments.

i'm just wondering how we all feel about tory MEPs supporting swedish and hungarian fascists?

I would feel shocked. Any quotes of any Tory supporting them?

all the rubbishy invective and lies directed at Labour by the hypocrites on this forum, eh?

It you include my posts, I only repeated what Labour MPs said about it, so not "rubbishy" or "lies."

Commissioned by the only party to have ever done anything on that scale in answer to allegations of racism?

No other party has had a torrent of complaints about it from its own members.

and recommendations acted upon?

Which of her 20 recommendations have been acted on Dave?

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 15 Sep 18 - 08:49 AM

There are more far right MPs in the UK parliament than in any EU parliament. They may claim not to belong to a far right party, but they do belong to a party which affiliates to the far right ECR in the European Parliament, rather than the centre right EPP. There are also MPs who belong to a party whose antecedents are a far right terrorist group in Northern Ireland.

Boris Johnson and Andrew Brigden are undeniably far right. Just because they don't have Union Jack tattoos, doesn't make them really any different from the likes of Tommy Robinson. And they are the tip of the iceberg. The rot runs very deep in Westminster.

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Iains
Date: 15 Sep 18 - 09:10 AM

"Boris Johnson and Andrew Brigden are undeniably far right. Just because they don't have Union Jack tattoos, doesn't make them really any different from the likes of Tommy Robinson. And they are the tip of the iceberg. The rot runs very deep in Westminster. "

An opinion! no more, no less.
Many would disagree. Rash statements about where the Tories affiliations lie only invites comparisons with the affilaiations of labour. These are affilations of the latter party their own members accuse them of. Hence the recently publicised CPS investigation of Corbyn supporters(Daily Telegraph 16 hours ago)

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Sep 18 - 09:23 AM

"Boris Johnson and Andrew Brigden are undeniably far right."
Johnson's racism (a province of the right) makes that quite clear
Those who "disagree" tend to share the extremist views of those the defend
Islamophobes here defend Conservative Islamophobia and racist defend Tommy Robinson's racism - one even publicised a petition demanding he be released for his racist activities
They refuse to enter into debate and use these threads to present their own 'monologues'
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Sep 18 - 09:29 AM

THIS FACT OF LIFE HAS BEEN PUT UP SEVERAL TIMES
How many of these people have even bothered to deny it
They make this site their right wing soapbox
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Iains
Date: 15 Sep 18 - 12:25 PM

"one even publicised a petition demanding he be released for his racist activities"

Typical jimmie distortion.
Reality Over 500,000 signed a petition because he was arrested, trialed and sentenced in 5 hours. This is not due process and when he was freed on appeal the Appeal Court judges on Wednesday ruled that the court process against Robinson in Leeds was flawed as the proceedings were completed too quickly, and that no details of the case against him were put to Robinson

No one supports his politics here, only his right to a fair trial.
How many more threads are you going to infect by mentioning his name.
Please ask someone to explain to you what the oxygen of publicity.
You appear impervious to explanation.

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 15 Sep 18 - 12:34 PM

So having described Jim mentioning your publicising of this petition as a distortion, you then go on to publicise it again. Yaxley-Lennon is only out on bail pending a new hearing. We will see what happens.

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Sep 18 - 01:13 PM

"Typical jimmie distortion.
Typical childish behaviour
I'm deligted to see that you continue to support this pice of fascist scum - your bullying suits your politics

"No one supports his politics here, only his right to a fair trial."#]After you were told of his obscene sta
tments about the Breivik killings "acting as a warning" you continued to demand that he had the right to speak as anybody else
The man is a hate peddler and you support him - end of story
The oxygen of publicity is to point gleefully at a petition in his support
Exposing his behaviour is just that - exposing his behaviour
Ignoring that behaviour is to allow him to get on with spreading his filth
Get someone to explain the term "appeasement" to you sometime
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: peteglasgow
Date: 15 Sep 18 - 01:52 PM

apparently 1% of the world's population own more than the remaining 99%. (and have £21 trillion avoiding tax in off shore accounts)some authoritarian world leaders are wanting even more while stirring conflict and division and threatening democratic systems. surely anyone who is sane or not a billionaire would like to see this improved? who could reasonably be happy with this state of affairs? millions are hungry or homeless (and many in the 6th richest country in the world) yet to challenge it in anyway is to be labelled 'far left' , 'marxist' or whatever.

really? for the record i can't be arsed to read much marx but the basic premise of marxism is undeniable. in comparison with the current state of play i probably would be regarded as far left by the supporters of the current system. but i'm sure that any other response is brain and empathy dead, totally lacking in compassion - and pitiful.

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Sep 18 - 03:10 PM

Boris Johnson and Andrew Brigden are undeniably far right.

That may be your opinion but it certainly is deniable and denied.

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 15 Sep 18 - 03:43 PM

Threefuckinghundred.

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 15 Sep 18 - 04:16 PM

Its very debatable i suppose. I have always regarded The Spectator as too far to the right to be interested in the truth and Boris was editor of that for many years.

But I suppose someone must read it, and think it represents fair comment.

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Iains
Date: 15 Sep 18 - 05:04 PM

"The man is a hate peddler and you support him - end of story
The oxygen of publicity is to point gleefully at a petition in his support
Exposing his behaviour is just that - exposing his behaviour
Ignoring that behaviour is to allow him to get on with spreading his filth
Get someone to explain the term "appeasement" to you sometime"

RUBBISH!
In the last week you are the one repeatedly raising the subject of tommy robinson. I am merely correcting your attempted distortions of the facts.
How many times does it need saying to you that free speech comes with restrictions. Judging by your behaviour on this forum you have zero understanding of this concept.

On this forum the oxygen of publicity comes courtesy of jimmie.

Article 10f the ECHR provides:
(1)Everyone has the right to freedom of expression. This right shall include freedom to hold opinions and to receive and impart
information and ideas without interference by public authority and regardless of frontiers.This Article shall not prevent States
from requesting the licensing of broadcasting,television or cinema enterprises.
(2) The exercise of these freedoms, since it carries with it duties and responsibilities,may be subject to such formalities, conditions,
Restrictions or penalties as are prescribed by law and are necessary in a democratic society,in the interests of national security,
territorial integrity or public safety,for the prevention of disorder or crime, for the protection of health or morals,for the
protection of the reputation or rights of others, for preventing the disclosure of information received in confidence,or for
maintaining the authority and impartiality of the judiciary.

In laymans terms for the mentally challenged, this means that if your scribblings or spoutings are deemed offensive by the authorities you will be prosecuted. In the US the second amendment may allow for a totally   different state of affairs. I have no idea. The above relates specifically to the UK.
For the record, the nature of your anti english postings over a considerable period clearly demonstrates your anglophobic tendencies. This automatically labels you as a racist.

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Sep 18 - 06:59 PM

Tommy robinson is a fascist and a hate merchant - no one should have the right of speech to spout his hate
"In laymans terms for the mentally challenged"
In layman's terms - the mentally challenged would end up in the extermination chambers in Tommy Robinsongs and apparently your world, as they did once before
Jim Carroll

EDL leader forced to deny praising Anders Breivik
EDL leader Stephen Yaxley-Lennon has been forced to deny supporting mass-murderer Anders Behring Breivik after he was quoted praising the man who killed 77 people in a Norwegian newspaper.
In an interview conducted in his home town of Luton, Mr Yaxley-Lennon called Breivik “smart” and said the murders he carried out would have been easier to justify if they had been perpetrated against Muslims.
“The [Breivik’s] blogs are full of facts. You can not yell at people because they tell the truth. You may find the truth hurts, but it is still the truth. I read the blogs themselves – they contain facts about Islam.”
In the interview with the Dagbladet newspaper, Mr Yaxley-Lennon, who also goes by the name “Tommy Robinson”, added: “Yes, it would been easier to justify it [if the crime were committed against Muslims], but he would only have been swept aside as the one that killed Muslims because he did not like Islam. Whether you like it or not, that guy was pretty smart...What he did is despicable, but he managed to make people curious.”
Today, Mr Yaxley-Lennon was forced to insist that he did not condone the killings. He acknowledged the quotes given to the Norwegian paper but told The Independent: “they were not in support of Breivik. I was saying that it is bad we are all playing out what he wants us to. Everything that is happening, he thought about. He has planned all of this; it is disturbing to give him what he wants.
“What I said was if it was Muslims, he would have been swept aside as a Muslim-hater. The man is a monster, he took kids away from their families. But the blogs are the truth.”
The anti-Islam group whose marches have been marked by violence and numerous arrests, has been at pains to distance itself from Breivik ever since he mentioned it in the largely racist writings he used to justify his actions.
There were reports that Breivik attended EDL marches in the UK before carrying out the murders, although these were denied by Mr Yaxley-Lennon

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Sep 18 - 02:39 AM

Incidentally
You claim to be concerned about British justice, yet you and your friend have waged war on a faily moderate and very principled British Political Party, accusing it of a crime that it totally alien to its history and is actually protected by its written constitution YET DESPITE CONSTANT REQUESTS YOU HAVE FAILED TO SPECIFY WHAT THEY HAVE ACTUALLY DONE TO MERIT YOUR YEAR-LONG BOMBARDMENT - I DON'T SEE A GREAT DEAL OF BRITISH OR ANY OTHER SORT OF JUSTICE IN THAT BEHAVIOR
Nobody wants to respond to you because you have refused to enter into intelligent, non-abusive discussion, rather, you appear to favour personal monologues whit titally ignore the arguments of others
THe only 'justice' there is that of Judge Jeffrey's Bloody Assizes.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Sep 18 - 02:39 AM

Incidentally
You claim to be concerned about British justice, yet you and your friend have waged war on a faily moderate and very principled British Political Party, accusing it of a crime that it totally alien to its history and is actually protected by its written constitution YET DESPITE CONSTANT REQUESTS YOU HAVE FAILED TO SPECIFY WHAT THEY HAVE ACTUALLY DONE TO MERIT YOUR YEAR-LONG BOMBARDMENT - I DON'T SEE A GREAT DEAL OF BRITISH OR ANY OTHER SORT OF JUSTICE IN THAT BEHAVIOR
Nobody wants to respond to you because you have refused to enter into intelligent, non-abusive discussion, rather, you appear to favour personal monologues whit titally ignore the arguments of others
THe only 'justice' there is that of Judge Jeffrey's Bloody Assizes.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Iains
Date: 16 Sep 18 - 04:17 AM

best ignored!

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Sep 18 - 04:58 AM

Course it is as far as you're concerned
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Sep 18 - 04:58 AM

Course it is as far as you're concerned
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Iains
Date: 16 Sep 18 - 05:01 AM

best totally ignored!

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 16 Sep 18 - 05:08 AM

Free speech has to have limits. The kind of hatred spewed by the likes of Stephen Yaxley-Lennon, Steve Bannon, Anjem Choudary and their ilk has no place in a civilised society.

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Iains
Date: 16 Sep 18 - 05:20 AM

and if you read the post by me you would see that free speech definitely has limits, especially when it comes to hate speech. How many times do I have to repeat this?


https://www.echr.coe.int/Documents/FS_Hate_speech_ENG.pdf

In laymans terms for the mentally challenged, this means that if your scribblings or spoutings are deemed offensive by the authorities you will be prosecuted.

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: KarenH
Date: 16 Sep 18 - 06:19 AM

Some of the most important political issues have been absent from this discussion. The environment, filthy air, polluted seas, climate change.

Trump's attitude to environmental protection was one of the worst things noticed about his initial behaviour, which seemed to about freeing up capitalist industries to make a mess of our planet.

The life of our grandchildren should not be prejudiced because it falls a casualty to a 'right left' battle, but I am not yet convinced that reclaiming the centre ground is the solution to these problems.

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Sep 18 - 07:16 AM

"but I am not yet convinced that reclaiming the centre ground is the solution to these problems."
Given the way politics works nowadays I tend to agree with you, but until we have a democratic system whereby our elected representatives are bound to carry out what they promised, the left appears to be the best bet on a very poorly loaded table at present
I have been impressed by somne of the examples of 'People Power' here in Ireland where major policies like water metering has been overturned (twice)
Referenda have brought about major changes regarding ame-sex marriage and pregnancy termination - I never believed either would ever happen in my lifetime
Another is being mooted at present that will seek to remove from the constitution that 'a woman's rightful place is in the home'
There was a disturbing set-back lst week when balaclava-clad, un-marked police assisted an eviction of homelessness protestors being carried out by a firm employing ex-Paras
At least we have proportional representation that manages to strike some sort of balance
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Sep 18 - 08:15 AM

"In laymans terms for the mentally challenged, "
What an appalling derogatory term with resonances of past history
If you haven't got the intelligence or breeding to conduct yourself in a reasonable manner why don't you just go away
A sure not being quite with it is the total inability to control your own behaviour which you obviously can't
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Sep 18 - 10:06 AM

How the fore-runners of Tommy Robinson dealt with the MENTALLY CHALLENGED
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Iains
Date: 16 Sep 18 - 10:17 AM

"If you haven't got the intelligence or breeding to conduct yourself in a reasonable manner why don't you just go away"

Wise words indeed. Now follow your own advice!

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: KarenH
Date: 16 Sep 18 - 11:53 AM

I personally have no problem with the idea that the 'right' to free speech is not set out as an absolute right in international frameworks. I cannot see why Ians feels a need to state this fact repeatedly, because I am sure that all the other people on this thread are aware of it.


Just in case they are not aware of it, here is an extract from the ECHR.

The exercise of these freedoms, since it carries with it duties and responsibilities, may be subject to such formalities, conditions, restrictions or penalties as are prescribed by law and are necessary in a democratic society, in the interests of national security, territorial integrity or public safety, for the prevention of disorder or crime, for the protection of health or morals, for the protection of the reputation or rights of others, for preventing the disclosure of information received in confidence, or for maintaining the authority and impartiality of the judiciary.

In my view, the laws on contempt of court, including those in place with the aim of ensuring that defendants get a fair trial, are a good example of a case when some limitation on the 'right to say what you want when you want' is reasonable.

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Sep 18 - 03:02 PM

The right to free speech has to be balanced with responsibility in how that right is used
There are those among us who choose not to live up to that responsibility - that is who civilised countries have laws to see those rights aren't abused.
On several occasions posters to this forum have breached national laws, particularly those involving hate-speech- one of the minuses of the internet, in my opinion
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Iains
Date: 16 Sep 18 - 03:49 PM

Jim what on earth makes you think you are beyond sanction when posting on an internet forum?
You of all people, who willfully attaches any kind of defamatory label to anyone that gets in your cross hairs, should be aware that you can be held responsible.

https://www.irishexaminer.com/viewpoints/analysis/Internet-defamation-who-is-legally-responsible-for-online-comments-266171.html

There is no such beast as free speech in Europe, there are limits
as shown by Article 10f the ECHR From: Iains - PM
Date: 15 Sep 18 - 05:04 PM and repeated by KarenH - PM
Date: 16 Sep 18 - 11:53 AM
In the EU you can be held accountable for what you post. In theory by both the state and the individual. Something you should perhaps think about before attaching all those labels to people.
Posting on a blog does not give immunity to the consequences of your actions.

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 16 Sep 18 - 06:11 PM

i dunno. most of us are quite unguarded in what we say on mudcat.

the law is incredibly expensive.

i can't imagine anyone giving that much of a shit about what gets said about you. i personally have felt hurt and deeply insulted by what p[eople have said about me on this forum, but not enough to actually spend any money seeking such redress as the law would provide.

we're too sensible to get lawyers involved, aren't we....?

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 17 Sep 18 - 03:38 AM

Jim,
On several occasions posters to this forum have breached national laws, particularly those involving hate-speech

If that is true, report them.
If it was true it would be a police matter. No need to consult lawyers.

Many of your own posts breach the IHRA anti-Semitism definition. The police would probably not prosecute but Labour would have to discipline you if you were a member.

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Sep 18 - 03:40 AM

"You of all people, who willfully attaches any kind of defamatory label to anyone that gets in your cross hairs"
You, of all people, know that if you support as fascist, as you have persistently on this thread, are likeely to be tarred with the same brush and you wouldn't stand a chance in hell of taking that to court - especially as you chose gloatingly to present a petition supporting his jailing for his fascist activities
You are entitled to express your extremist views as I am entitled to comment on them
You are even entiltled to serially abuse people on this forum - as you do, just as the rest of us are entitled to comment on your infantile behaviour
This in not what I am referring to.

I'm talking about the posings that breach the hate laws onb Britain - the ones that describe Muslims as being prone to the sexual abuse of underage women because of their culture (based on the actions of a handful of criminals)
If somebody stood on a street corner and publy expressed such a view they would become likely to prosecution.
Likewise, If somebody wrote an article describing Traveller culture being one of thieving or slave-owning (again, based on the actions of a tiny handful of criminals), as several people on this forum have done regularly, they would be open to prosecution.
Snide comments on living in a bog, like at least one moron makes a habit of, are just acts of brute ignorance and risk only a punch in the mouth, but as they are made from a position of anonymity and distance just brushed of as cowardly name-balling from people who know no better
If the cap fits here, feel free to wear it
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 17 Sep 18 - 03:48 AM

If somebody stood on a street corner and publy expressed such a view they would become likely to prosecution.

It was not my opinion. I admitted knowing nothing about that culture.
It was the opinion of 5 Left Wingers, four of whom were Senior Labour people and three of whom were from the demographic group concerned.

They were widely reported. I just said I believed them. Why would anyone dismiss their informed opinion?

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Iains
Date: 17 Sep 18 - 04:04 AM

"You are entitled to express your extremist views as I am entitled to comment on them"

Where is that then? Examples please!

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Sep 18 - 04:11 AM

Oh come-on!!!!
Supporting the right of someone who believes that the only mistake Breivik made was to kill Norwegian children instead of Muslims is only the latest
If you genuinely believed in the technical right to free speech you would have specified your accusations against the Labour Party long ago
You are supporting causes not rights
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Sep 18 - 04:21 AM

Only cowardsblame others for their views Keith - they are your views
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Iains
Date: 17 Sep 18 - 04:55 AM

I do not believe the Human rights legislation to be selective, perhaps you can prove otherwise. This would mean that even Hitler would be extended the same human rights as jim carroll. And also be subject to the same sanctions should they abuse those rights.
This is known as equality under the law! obviously a concept too far for some.

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Sep 18 - 05:26 AM

"This would mean that even Hitler would be extended the same human rights.."
Your hidiong behing human rights is a sham - your inconsistencies prove it to be so.
You defend ony those who reflect your own political outlook and ignore the rights of those you oppose
Now that's what I call "selective"
Your racially abusive posts on Travellers and the Irish confirm that and your bullying abusive behaviour towards those who disagree with you is reminiscent of past displays of extremism in Britain - from The Blackshirts to the Paki-bashers
Your persistent loutish behaviour acts as a perfect example of why the centre-ground needs reclaiming" (the subject of this thread) if we don't want to end up in your 'Brave New World'
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Iains
Date: 17 Sep 18 - 06:48 AM

You are very clever in attaching labels to people and determining their political stance.However clever neither assumes accuracy or intelligence.

Perhaps you would care to offer proof for your labels and try to progress beyond your intemperate ,abusive, insulting posts.

In contrast, any label I attach to you can easily be demonstrated by reference to your voluminous, repetitive muddled posts.Bigot would be one label easily substantiated when applied to you, yet you hurl it about like confetti. A bigot is defined as " A person obstinately and unreasonably holding some creed or view and intolerant towards others". Does it only apply to those questioning your views? I suggest you look long and hard in a mirror.

Is there any particular reason you feel you should constantly repeat your posts?No one else here feels the compulsion to do it.

"Your racially abusive posts on Travellers and the Irish confirm that and your bullying abusive behaviour towards those who disagree with you is reminiscent of past displays of extremism in Britain - from The Blackshirts to the Paki-bashers"

Once again lets be having some proof to substantiate your insanity.
You are a serial abuser of all who dare hold a counter view.

I will support travellers when paid up members of the caravan club are extended the same rights.

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 17 Sep 18 - 06:49 AM

None of which really is much help in locating this elusive 'centre ground'.

Jim and Iain and Keith clearly don't like the way they express themselves.

Are there some views which unite us? The centre ground.

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Sep 18 - 08:32 AM

"The centre ground."
Interesting development in Ireland
After being part of a series of coalitions with other Parties, The Irish labour Party bombed in 2011 with catastrophic losses - the Irish people has had enough of a one system system of politics and wanted a change
At a conference last weekend Labour Party delegates have made it clear that whet is necessary is a return to core principles
As far as I am concerned, there's a lot to be learned from that
Parliamentary Politics have become a farce - different self-serving parties saying the same thing has brought politics into disrepute
I don't agree with everything Cornyn says, but at least he appears to be pushing for a return to what the Labour Party was created for - an alternative to a sytem based on greed and privelige
He'd get my vote

Iains
You are what your stated opinions say you are not what you claim to be
You are a right-wing bully
I repeat myself because you refuse to respond to anything anybody says, but just plough ahead with one unqualified statement after another - your refusal to justify what you say is indication enough of why you are here
You're not here top exchange ideas but just to pontificate your own
Your parting shot about Travellers confirms your cultural intolerance and in no way justifies your describing them as a community of thieves or spreaders of rubbish
Before anybody can demand anything from them, they have to be granted the same basic rights of the settled community - a right to a permanent place to live, to running water, to sanitation, to electricity, to educate their children and to freedom under the law from persecution
They have none of these things and they have no chance of obtaining them while small-minded ignorant and bigoted people like yourself are allowed to spout your hatred
Anti-Traveller hatred is the last permissible form of racism in these islands and it is systematically ethnically cleansing a cultural group that has travelled our roads for an unknown number of centuries - far longer than many of our settled communities
It's about time you people came to terms with the damage your hatred is doing to this ethnic group
You wouldn't get away with it if you addressed it towards other cultural groups - you would soon fall foul of the anti-hate laws
Get a grip
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Iains
Date: 17 Sep 18 - 09:48 AM

"You wouldn't get away with it if you addressed it towards other cultural groups - you would soon fall foul of the anti-hate laws"

Well I wish you luck trying to find any post of mine that would lead a rational person to reach your asinine conclusions. But then rationality is not one of little jimmies strong points , is it? We see this constantly exhibited by your ill mannered, ill structured, ranting, frothing posts.

If you stopped making unsubstantiated allegations about posters then those on the receiving end would not have to waste so much time rejecting your abject stupidity.

It really is time little jimmie grew up and became big jimmie and took responsibility for the bile he spreads about. But fat chance of that eh jimmie? Perhaps a kind moderator could remove your insanities and lies.

I really do get totally fed up being labelled bigotracistfascist by little jimmie. You have absolutely no idea what my political persuasion is and your constant wild allegations get rather tiresome.

Yet whenever you are called out you go running away squalling and crying foul. What kind of person does that make you?

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 17 Sep 18 - 09:53 AM

I think the problem to some extent resides with the image the traveller community presents. Common sense should tell us the majority of any community are decent people. But look at the Big Fat Gypsy Wedding type programmes on the telly piped into every home.

I know this sounds a bit like blaming the victim, but I think in an age when the media is in every home, and access to it is relatively simple....an insular community has to get out of its comfort zone and tell its own story.

I'm willing to bet the negative opinions expressed by the members of mudcat are fairly widespread.

And like I say, our differences are not in doubt. The debate is like a group of kids playing with mud pies. The shit slinging has gone on too long, and its too enjoyable.

Whether the Labour Party is making strenuous efforts to form a socialist government, or just pissing about shit slinging at long serving members, is anyone's guess. I have my suspicions though.

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Sep 18 - 10:45 AM

" I have my suspicions though."
I really don't see any alternative Al

"Yet whenever you are called out you go running away squalling and crying foul. "
Never run away Iains
You are the one who is constantly saying "best ignored" and you are the one who refuses to respond to what hs been said
You and your mate have ywt to respond to one single challenge
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 17 Sep 18 - 10:51 AM

Only cowardsblame others for their views Keith - they are your views

I do not have the knowledge to form such views, and I do not believe you have either.
Those five people did.
Why would anyone dismiss their informed opinion?

You have been trying and failing to smear me over this every few weeks for over seven years!
Time someone made you stop I think.

You have no answer to what is said in current thread so you dredge up ancient ones.

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 17 Sep 18 - 11:21 AM

"This would mean that even Hitler would be extended the same human rights.."
Your hiding behind human rights is a sham - your inconsistencies prove it to be so.
You defend only those who reflect your own political outlook and ignore the rights of those you oppose
Now that's what I call "selective"
Your racially abusive posts on Travellers and the Irish confirm that and your bullying abusive behaviour towards those who disagree with you is reminiscent of past displays of extremism in Britain - from The Blackshirts to the Paki-bashers
Your persistent loutish behaviour acts as a perfect example of why the centre-ground needs reclaiming" (the subject of this thread) if we don't want to end up in your 'Brave New World'
Jim Carroll

On the basis that the term 'Paki', for one of Pakistani origin, is considered offensive, should the term 'Paki-bashing' also be avoided?

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Sep 18 - 11:22 AM

"Those five people did."
Don't start this again Keith
You've just said they are your views - your original statement says so "I now believe"
Your stupidty in inventing "six others" and refusing to quote what you claim they said is beyond belief
As with Iains, you have reduced to respond to anything anybody has said but just continue with your monologues of hate against anything slightly left of Attila the Hun
You both have refused to involve in debate on this hread but instead opted for megaphone declaring

Meabwhile, back to reality Al
If Labour were not posing a tread to the present establishment they would have been ignored by the right wing media
If you want to know how much Corbyn's Labour is beginning to make a difference, just read Murdoch's bumwipe Time, or The Scum ot the Tory Telegraph, or any of te sewer press outlets
Hardly a day passes that you don't read that Corbyn has babies for breakfast or goes and burn crosses on the lawns of his Jewish neighbours
This is the press that totally ignores th accusations of Islamophobia by senior Tory politicians like Baroness Warsi
They report it and foget it rather than the dorstepping of Labour over so-called antisemitism
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 17 Sep 18 - 11:52 AM

That's just it - the Labour Party can't afford to be like the travellers, marginalised and a perceived threat to the economic system that fills . or half fills wage packets.

Getting pissed off with Murdoch. Its a bit like blaming your parents when you're in your mid forties for your life being in the shitter.

That's how things are and were, and you have to just get on with life - using what you know of reality.

in the end, excuses for losing the election will be just that. Whatever reason he has for chucking out the Blairites that constitute half of his parliamentary - its not good enough.

Whatever it takes to find that centre ground. He needs to do it bloody fast.

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Sep 18 - 12:12 PM

Er, Jim referred to Paki-bashers as a display of extremism. It is a term that was common currency as long as forty or fifty years ago. It is perfectly legitimate to refer to the term if it clarifies what we're talking about. It does just that in the context used here and Jim's comment did not contain the slightest hint of approval of either the term or the perpetrators. Wrong-headed yet again, Nigel. It seems that when you can't debate it you nitpick it. And it happens a bit too often.

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 17 Sep 18 - 12:35 PM

well calling each other out about our predjudices isn't going to help.

what do people agree about?

If we can't force ourselves to agree about anything - then we bloody deserve Theresa May.

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Iains
Date: 17 Sep 18 - 12:57 PM

"Your racially abusive posts on Travellers and the Irish"

Here is a challenge to you jimmie of the cloth ears:

Just demonstrate to us all any post of mine that is racially abusive.
Once again a figment of your extremely perverted imagination.

What on earth do you think has given you the right to constantly insult those who disagree with your dysfunctional world view? The only subject on which you have appear to have a nodding acquaintance is bullshit.
You spread it about so widely you would probably be entitled to an honorary Dlit. in the subject.
You are just a nasty, bigoted, anglophobic little man with an extremely sour disposition.
Now please take your constant insults away from here. People really do not want to see it.

Maybe you should pm me then I can elaborate on what I really think of you.

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Sep 18 - 01:25 PM

"challenge to you jimmie of the cloth ears:"
Tsk tsk - your jackboots are showing again

" Its a bit like blaming your parents "
Why not Al?
His control of the press played a great part in bringing about Brexit, which, according to the IMF, has virtually destroyed Great Britain
A spokesman said today the leaving Europe with an agreement will damage the economy, leaving without an agreement will be a total catastrophe
Seeking agreement with those who have opposite outlooks on how society should be run gave us 'New labour' with Blair the war criminal at its head and has done much to foster the contempt that is generally held for politicians - the Irish Labour Party seems to have learned that lesson
I don't know about Britain standing on her own two feet, it's about time The Labour Party learned to before it loses any chance of winning hears and minds
If it doesn't, it will sink without trace
Britain needs an alternative - it really can't take more of the same.

"On the basis that the term 'Paki', for one of Pakistani origin"'
"Paki Bashers" is a common term used to describe a specific group carryingout a specific form of racism
The term appeared in the press at the tie and was frequently referred to o n the radio
You know all this - don't you dare attempt to apply racist connotations to my repeating it by taking it out of context
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 17 Sep 18 - 02:36 PM

From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Sep 18 - 12:12 PM

Er, Jim referred to Paki-bashers as a display of extremism. It is a term that was common currency as long as forty or fifty years ago. It is perfectly legitimate to refer to the term if it clarifies what we're talking about. It does just that in the context used here and Jim's comment did not contain the slightest hint of approval of either the term or the perpetrators. Wrong-headed yet again, Nigel. It seems that when you can't debate it you nitpick it. And it happens a bit too often.

I don't think you've thought this through. The fact that a term was "common currency" forty or fifty years ago does not mean that it is acceptable to use it now. There are so many other terms which were common currency at that time which I'm sure both Jim and yourself would not wish to see used now.

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Sep 18 - 03:01 PM

"does not mean that it is acceptable to use it now"
Please don't be so crass Nigel
Not only is it still openly referred to but it actually has a dictionary entry in Collins English Dictionary - go look it up
You disappoint me
When Keith describes "all make Pakistanis as culturally implanted perverts you say not a word, yet my describing what was once one of Britain's National sports you go sprinting for the high ground
I deliberately use this nasty phrase to describe a nasty group of people as a reminder of what Britain appears to be heading for once again
Of couse we wouldn't like a return to the old prejudicial use of the term, but neither would we wish it to be forgotten
https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/my-earliest-memory-is-of-being-racially-abused-in-manchester-i-thought-wed-moved-on-but-now-its-a7105636.html
(can't blue clickie)
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Sep 18 - 03:08 PM

From your own darlin' Daily Telegraph

"In the Seventies we used to help protect the Asians from what was called Paki-bashing by white skinheads. Now their children are the ones doing the bashing and they are targeting our children, young blacks. It's madness."
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 17 Sep 18 - 03:31 PM

The link goes to a blank page, which is unhelpful, as I can't read your quote in context.
The presence of a word in the dictionary (Collins or any other) does not confer respectability on it.

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 17 Sep 18 - 03:39 PM

So basically you all choose either Theresa or Boris, rather than find some common ground.

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Sep 18 - 06:33 PM

You do or don't confer respectability or otherwise to a word just by using it. Context is everything. It is perfectly all right to discuss how black rappers use the word "nigger" or to discuss how "nigger" gradually became more and more unacceptable in the latter part of the 20th century. We can't have those discussions unless we use the word. What we can't do is go around calling people niggers. Are you beginning to get it yet, Nigel? Feel free to police the way we use words (though your form may encourage us to ignore you anyway). We do mind if you attempt to ban words. Not in your gift, old chap. And I do rein myself in. I don't use the words "fuck," "bitch" or "cunt" on this forum unless I'm actually discussing those words. But I don't give a flying fart when other people do.

I contest that people on the mythical centre ground treat others' use of "contentious" words lightly unless those words are being used to propagate abuse or hate.

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: robomatic
Date: 18 Sep 18 - 01:23 AM

Don't get your 'Irish' up ol' chap.

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 18 Sep 18 - 02:56 AM

Jim,
You've just said they are your views - your original statement says so "I now believe"

I have no knowledge of that culture to form an opinion, but I was prepared to believe the explanation given by 5 Left-Wingers with impeccable credentials and knowledge.

Likewise when I was diagnosed with pancreatic cancer.
It was the oncologists' opinion not mine, but why would I not believe them?

We have been over this scores of times over the last seven years.
Everyone knows your accusations and how I rebut them.
Time to stop Jim.

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 18 Sep 18 - 03:01 AM

Liar Jim,
When Keith describes "all make Pakistanis as culturally implanted perverts

I never have nor would make such a ludicrous claim, liar.

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Sep 18 - 03:44 AM

"The presence of a word in the dictionary (Collins or any other) does not confer respectability on it."
You obviously intend to continure making this an issue rather than addressing its implcationbs and the point of the practivce iself - shame on you Nigel

"I grew up in inner city Manchester during the 1980s. The winter of discontent had turned into the decade of disgruntlement. Thatcher had declared that there was no such thing as society and no one understood that more than those who were on the margins. Paki-bashing was almost a national pastime."
The Independent

"In both the United Kingdom and Canada, the term "Paki" is commonly associated with "Paki-bashing", violent attacks against people of South Asian origin. "Paki-bashing" began in the late 1960s and was frequent during the 1970s–1980s, with the attackers often being supporters of far-right fascist, racist and anti-immigrant movements. By 1985, there were annually more than 20,000 racist attacks on British people of colour, including Britons of South Asian origin.
Wiki (15 uses of the term)

""In the Seventies we used to help protect the Asians from what was called Paki-bashing by white skinheads. Now their children are the ones doing the bashing and they are targeting our children, young blacks. It's madness.""
Daily Telegraph

"The widespread use of the word "Paki" dated from the late 1960s and early 1970s when incidents of "Paki bashing" took place with the result that the term had become associated with violence towards a race."
Telegraph again
BBC

"paki bashing
A pass time once common in U.K. and Canadian cities where drunken white youths would lay the boots to an unsuspecting Pakistani refugee.
Let's have a few beer and go paki bashing, eh?"
Urban Dictionary

From Article 'STRIKING BACK AGAINST RACis VIOLENCE IN THE EAST END
" In recovering this lost episode of resistance to ‘Paki-bashing’, unleashed in the aftermath of Enoch Powell’s inflammatory speeches,"
and
"Keywords: autonomous self-organisation, Enoch Powell 1968, integration, Paki-bashing, Pakistani organisations, Peter Shore MP, policing, racist violence and harassment, self-defence, Tosir Ali, Tower Hamlets"

English: Paki-bashing
Paki-bashing in British
noun
British offensive, slang
the activity of making vicious and unprovoked physical assaults upon Pakistani immigrants or people of Pakistani descent
Collins English Dictionary.

"For Khan-Din's family, and those like them, Britain in the early 70s was often unwelcoming; it was a time of tin baths and "Paki-bashing"."
Guardian

For the tTories amongst us, it appears to be the hare that dare not speak its name (sort of like homoosexuality) - best forgotten
It was a specific and evil practice that describes what it was perfectly
exactly what it was
Litlle wonder that those who defend what is happening today wish to sweep it under the carpet
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Sep 18 - 03:50 AM

From: Keith A of Hertford - PM
Date: 13 Feb 11 - 07:10 AM
"Don I do now " believe that all male Pakistani Muslims have a culturally implanted tendency" but only because of the testimony of all those knowledgeable people, and always acknowledging that only a tiny minority succumb.
Do you dismiss all that just because it does not fit your preconceptions, or do you have some powerful evidence to the contrary that you have not shared with us?

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Iains
Date: 18 Sep 18 - 04:12 AM

Anyway back to the thread. How can the center ground be reclaimed by Labour when Jeremy Corbyn is seeking to make it harder for Labour MPs to be automatically reselected between elections? Labour sources said that his office was considering “taking back control” of the debate over reselection at the Labour conference next week. The plan would, in effect, boost the power of local Momentum groups to move against sitting MPs who did not back the party’s leader.
   If the party is not split already this latest wheeze will certainly add to the chaos,if it gets the go ahead.

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Sep 18 - 04:39 AM

"How can the center ground be reclaimed by Labour when Jeremy Corbyn is seeking to make it harder for Labour MPs to be automatically reselected between elections"
Because Blair hi-jacked Labourt, abandoned its principles and made it a pale shadow of the Tories
Old labour provided a balance in British politics - that balance no longer exists
The party is only "split" because the majority of its membership are challing the old guard and demanding a return to purpose rather than career politics
Compared to the Tories, labour is presenting a "monolithic united front"
The only way the present Government can carry a vote is to bribe unsavoury otside parties unsing British taxes
That is in essence, sharp practice
Jim carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Iains
Date: 18 Sep 18 - 05:04 AM

Compared to the Tories, labour is presenting a "monolithic united front.

monolith:a large, impersonal political, corporate, or social structure regarded as indivisible and slow to change.


Slow to change! Got that bit right!
Indivisible;Factions

Scribbled response with the usual lack of accuracy. Quelle surprise!

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Sep 18 - 05:06 AM

Well we'll have to see what the conference (not Corbyn) decides, won't we? Just a couple of things. First, what has happened in several constituencies so far is that there have been votes of no confidence in sitting MPs. The votes have no constitutional force, can't make the MPs stand down and are NOTHING to do with deselection. They are warning shots from frustrated constituents across the bows of MPs who insist on briefing against and undermining an extremely popular leader of the party, arguably threatening the chance of Labour winning the next election. Nothing sinister, eminently sensible and thoroughly democratic. Second, "local Momentum groups" (nice smear) consist of individual members who have no more voting power than any other members in constituency matters. Cabals within parties getting themselves organised is no sin. If it were, the Tories to a man would all be rotting in hell in by now.

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Sep 18 - 05:22 AM

The Tory Party is so split that Micheal Barnier has issued a warning that whatever agreement over Brexit is reached is a binding one in case a later Tory leader attempts to re-negotiate it
How about responding to points rather that to divert away from them with semantics ?
British society is totally fragmented from top to bottom
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Sep 18 - 05:26 AM

SUMMED UP PERFECTLY HERE
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Iains
Date: 18 Sep 18 - 06:07 AM

Jessica Shankleman, Tim Ross, Suzi Ring and Alex Morales sum up nought. They are are merely hacks voicing opinions. Might as well discuss cabbages.

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 18 Sep 18 - 06:19 AM

Whereas Paul Staines is the epitome of ethical journalism?

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 18 Sep 18 - 06:23 AM

The deselection needs to be of those MPs, Hoey, Field and Stringer to start with, who have collaborated with the tories on their mad brexit policy. Those three should go for a start. That isn't conspiring against Corbyn. That is conspiring against the party and the people.

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Sep 18 - 06:27 AM

"They are are merely hacks voicing opinions. "
UNLIKE
It seems journalists can only be taken seriously if they agree with you - only extremists right wing bloggers are to be trusted

The facts speak for themselves - the Tories are at each other's throats, the country is divided, even the lemmings don't know which way to jump
Jim Carroll

From Super-Tory Murdoch's Times today
Tory Eurosceptics divided after report warns of chaos
Oliver Wright Policy Editor
A no-deal Brexit would be “chaotic and damaging” for the economy and must be avoided, a cross-party committee of MPs has concluded.
In a report backed by at least one prominent Tory proponent of Brexit, the MPs called for the government to prioritise its efforts on agreeing a withdrawal agreement with Brussels.
It said that should Britain leave the EU without a negotiated settlement there would be “significant consequences”. “This would be chaotic and damaging for the UK economy and would leave many businesses facing huge uncertainty,” it said.
The Brexit select committee report’s conclusions were backed by the former culture secretary, John Whittingdale, who campaigned for Brexit and opposes the Chequers deal. In a move that will be noted in Downing Street he broke ranks with other Brexiteers on the committee, including Jacob Rees-Mogg, who voted against the report’s conclusions, and agreed to go along with the majority view. He said that his decision did not represent a change in approach but that he agreed with the broad thrust of the analysis. “The basic conclusions of the report I don’t disagree with,” he said. “A deal is better than no deal. I am not somebody who thinks that no-deal is problem free.” Mr Rees-Mogg used a BBC Panorama programme on Brexit last night to warn Mrs May not to hand parliament an ultimatum to back her deal or crash out of the bloc. Referencing the 1971 Clint Eastwood film he said: “This is the sort of Dirty Harry option isn’t it, it’s ‘come on punk make my day, how many shots have been fired?’ If you make the wrong choice the consequences can be unpleasant.”
The chairman of the Exiting the European Union committee, the Labour MP Hilary Benn, said that time was running out to agree a withdrawal agreement and solve the issue of the Northern Ireland border.

Jaguar in Brexit row, business, page 35

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 18 Sep 18 - 06:36 AM

Solution is a two year pause in the process, time for a rethink and another election. Would the EU27 agree??

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Iains
Date: 18 Sep 18 - 06:42 AM

There really is no point in slagging my mate guido. Like anyone else making claims in the blogosphere, his stated facts can always be verified.
A fact is a fact, an opinion is merely an opinion. Why do so many here confuse the two very different beasts?

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 18 Sep 18 - 06:55 AM

his stated facts can always be verified

And those of Jessica Shankleman, Tim Ross, Suzi Ring and Alex Morales cannot?

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Iains
Date: 18 Sep 18 - 07:00 AM

"It seems journalists can only be taken seriously if they agree with you - only extremists right wing bloggers are to be trusted"

What a silly little man!
What I said was that any statement made can be verified as fact, fiction or falsehood. Who wrote it, their political affiliation, the number of times they have been adulterous or been caught drink driving matters not a whit.
Now I will try to make this as little of a challenge to the challenged as possible:
    It is the statement that is of interest not the person making it.

Or perhaps to follow your own stated view, the opinions of an ex sparky living in a bog should be totally ignored because he has no qualifications to justify him taking any particular political stance.
And please spare us the family history as a justification. We can all play that particular wicket ad nauseum.

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 18 Sep 18 - 07:32 AM

Solution is a two year pause in the process, time for a rethink and another election. Would the EU27 agree??
Whether the EU27 would agree or not, I don't think you would get that proposal past the UK population.

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Sep 18 - 07:41 AM

" I don't think you would get that proposal past the UK population."
You no longer have a n idea what the UK population thing - you don't even have the bottle to ask them whether they wish to reconsider their decision to leave Europe - a decision which was pushed through by a minority of that population

"What I said was that any statement made can be verified as fact, "
No - you described the reporters as three hacks - the facts speak for themselves anyway
And still you ignore the divided state od a party whose members go out at night in fear of being stabbed in the bacvk by fellow members
What a dishonest little man

THE TORY-BOY TELERAPH
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Sep 18 - 07:41 AM

"...his stated facts can always be verified."

Yet you have never "verified" a single one. You simply spout them out from his blog parrot-fashion, often without any supporting comment.

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Sep 18 - 07:45 AM

"...I don't think you would get that proposal past the UK population."

So let's not ask them. The suggestion is hardly for a negation of the referendum result in any case, so there's no point. Let's do things the sensible way and ditch the populist crap.

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 18 Sep 18 - 07:56 AM

Blair won three elections in a row for Labour after they were 13 years in opposition.
They have not won again since.

He at least was able to get some progressive Labour policies into law.

The Far Left has always been unelectable here, which is why they try so hard to infiltare Lablour and have finally succeeded.
Perhaps the electorate has changed and will now vote for them. We will see.

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Sep 18 - 07:58 AM

"Infiltrate" my arse (even when spelled correctly). To you ignorant right-wingers, nice Blairites join things but lefties always infiltrate things. Total nonsense.

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 18 Sep 18 - 08:08 AM

Blairites did not infiltrate except by winning elections.
They still dominate at Westminster. The Far-Left have infiltrated the membership. They have changed the membership profile and are taking over local parties.
Almost none have ever won any kind of election.
They have always been unelectable. Perhaps that has somehow changed now.

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 18 Sep 18 - 08:10 AM

You no longer have a n idea what the UK population thing - you don't even have the bottle to ask them whether they wish to reconsider their decision to leave Europe - a decision which was pushed through by a minority of that population

Once again, this idea that Brexit was "pushed through by a minority of the population".
Of those eligible to vote, who chose to exercise their right to vote, Brexit was the decision of the majority.

Once Article 50 was issued there is no turning back. The UK is leaving the EU.

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 18 Sep 18 - 08:28 AM

Is that what the EU say Nigel? If not,then there is turning back.

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Sep 18 - 08:48 AM

Nigel. No-one believes that we can't reverse Article 50, not even the bloke who drafted it.

Now I'm a leftie. When Jeremy was elected I decided to join the party. I filled in a form, sent it off, set up my direct debit, then, after a few days, got me welcome pack along with membership card. Along with half a million others, that's how I "infiltrated" the Labour Party. I have a sneaking suspicion that Jeremy-haters "infiltrated" the party exactly as I did.

So blow it out yo' ass, Keith.

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Sep 18 - 09:15 AM

Once again, this idea that Brexit was "pushed through by a minority of the population".

But. Nigel, it's a fact, whichever way you look at it. In roundish numbers, 17.5 million voted for Brexit. The population is 66.5 million. Where's me calculator now...

Yep, that's about 26.3% of the population who voted for brexit. Of course, that's not fair because you can't vote if you're under 18 (the group that's going to be far more adversely affected by brexit than anyone else, but hey).

So let's do it as a proportion of those who WERE allowed to vote. That's 46.5 million, so lessee, what's 17.5 million out of 46.5 million?

Well that's 37.6%, Nigel. So only 37.6% of those eligible to vote are indeed responsible for pushing brexit through. That's a minority, Nigel. It's not much more than a third of the electorate and not much more than a quarter of the total population (not all of whom could vote but all of whom, ESPECIALLY those who couldn't vote, will be adversely affected).

So, Nigel, it's not an "idea." It's a fact.

Next point up for debate: "The people have spoken...". :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Sep 18 - 09:35 AM

" Brexit was the decision of the majority."
Of those who voted - those who didn't have obviously lost any confidence in the voting system due to lying politicians
Now that Brexit has proved the nightmare it was predicted to be, the people should have a right to decide again
I asssume you've dropped this 'Paki bashers' nonsense

Why is Keith supporting a British war criminal?
Rhetorical question he makes a habit of supporting war criumiunals
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 18 Sep 18 - 09:52 AM

Steve, you're again trying to force the figures to say what you want them to say.
Of those who were entitled to vote, and chose to exercise that entitlement, the vote favoured Leave by 52:48
Of the total electorate if only 37.6% voted Leave, then only approx. 34.7% voted Remain. Again a majority in favour in the ratio 52:48
If you recalculate the figures giving those who voted Leave as a percentage of the total population you will still find that the percentage is greater than those who voted Remain, and still in the ratio of 52:48

As for the idea that those not entitled to vote being "adversely affected", that is your opinion. Those who voted Leave (for the most part) did so because we believe it is best for the future of the country, and that (after some initial costs) we will all benefit.

And I love the quote: No-one believes that we can't reverse Article 50, not even the bloke who drafted it.

Here's another, I wonder whether you'll recognise it:
"Once buttons have been pushed," Keith. The button is Article 50. No going back once that has been kick-started, despite what Teribus sez. Irrevocable. As far as I can see from here, that is a rock-solid cert. This is not about not doing it. It's about doing it properly. Rule of law, Keith. In fact, to all intents and purposes, the "decision of the people" (all 37% of them) was always intended to be irrevocable.

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Sep 18 - 11:33 AM

That was posted well before the good lord who drafted Article 50 told us that it wasn't, after all, irrevocable. And it was posted well before the EU made gentle noises to the same effect. The whole country was told that Article 50 was the point of no return. It was yet another brexiteer lie, intended to close the door on the debate once and for all. You believed it then, I believed it then. I now know what's true about Article 50, Nigel. Come and join us.

So now back to your statement, Nigel. Once again, this idea that Brexit was "pushed through by a minority of the population". You see, you wish to relegate it to being just "an idea" (anyone remember that other Tory trick of relegating the election promise to get immigration down to the tens of thousands to being just "an aspiration?"). The statement "brexit was pushed through by a minority of the population" is not "an idea" at all. It's rock-solid true. You have the numbers. You're a stickler for precision with words, Nigel, so you purport. So let me just nitpick YOU. "Population" is not the same thing as "electorate." Only, this isn't quite as irrelevant as some of YOUR nitpicking, is it? After all, you brexiteers, when you spoke for the nation, forgot that you were speaking for millions of young people who will be suffering the effects of your "speaking," long after you'll be pushing up the daisies. And, tragically, they didn't get a say. They were only allowed to be in the population, not in the electorate. I'd say that isn't a nitpicking difference meself.

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Iains
Date: 18 Sep 18 - 12:22 PM

"Whereas Paul Staines is the epitome of ethical journalism?"
What a bizarre question. Does he print facts that can be verified? yes
The four hacks are voicing opinion and possible outcomes.
Those with any kind of education realise that fact,fiction, falsehood and opinion are very different. If you cannot appreciate the difference perhaps you should stick to reading comics.

It is a bit like shaw, who obviously went to the same maths school as the abbacus , and came away with nought.
If talking about a polling result the majority wins. Those that are not enfranchised, could not crawl out of bed, or otherwise abstained, not surprisingly do not count.
Perhaps the Shaw would like to extend the vote to a foetus, or sperm and eggs, or maybe even parrots that can talk. A total nonsense of course, just like trying to include those that did not vote. The loony left is not so called frivolous reasons!

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 18 Sep 18 - 12:47 PM

The four hacks are voicing opinion and possible outcomes.

You are getting as bad as keefy with your verbal gymnastics. About time you were either ignored or sin binned again. But before that, let us know which facts these 'hacks' have misrepresented then. Your hero posts opinions too in case you had not noticed. It is what columnists do.

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Iains
Date: 18 Sep 18 - 01:19 PM

Who has said the hacks misrepresented anything? Mayhap it is you guilty of verbal gymnastics, or simply of misunderstanding the argument or simply creating a fiction to provoke argument?

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 18 Sep 18 - 01:41 PM

No one said they had misrepresented anything but that is your fall back answer if anyone criticises your hero. They all give opinions. The only difference is that they express moderate views while Staines peddles right wing bigotry. No wonder you are such a fan boy of his. Now, how about you give us all a break and go back into hiding.

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Iains
Date: 18 Sep 18 - 02:48 PM

"let us know which facts these 'hacks' have misrepresented then."
"No one said they had misrepresented anything"

Both by the gnome. He seems a little confused and yet still tries to provoke. Howsabout you get your facts straight first, and then come back to try to provoke argument.

I suggest you read any postings of mine containing juicy titbits (facts)from guido and demonstrate what has been said by him that cannot be verified by numerous independent sources.

I await your response with interest.

Put your money where your mouth is would be the correct term I believe. Over to you!

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 18 Sep 18 - 03:17 PM

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Iains - PM
Date: 13 Sep 18 - 06:48 AM

And we can rely on Guido to tell it how it is. Study the attached questionaire. IT would take years for some the corbyn dream team to give comprehensive answers that would satisfy the security forces.

https://order-order.com/2018/09/12/another-top-corbyn-aide-working-without-security-clearance/


Snippet from the link you posted

A number of Corbyn’s top team are probably going to need more than half a page to give full details on that one…

Pure personal prejudice. Nothing factual at all. Cannot be verified by anyone.

Easy. Next...

No, on second thoughts. don't bother. Your silly little games are as boring as keefy's. Time for you to be consigned to the same place as him.

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 18 Sep 18 - 03:27 PM

I'm right here Dave.

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 18 Sep 18 - 03:55 PM

Who said that?

:D

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 18 Sep 18 - 04:01 PM

Me Dave. My name is right there.

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Iains
Date: 18 Sep 18 - 04:40 PM

AS Guido said on the link in question:
BI>Another top Corbyn adviser, Andrew Murray, has reportedly been working in the Labour Leader’s Commons office for eight months without the required security clearance. His application has been pending for over a year..

Andrew Murray was a member of the Communist Party of Great Britain until he joined Labour two years ago.

A quick glance at the parliamentary pass application form might explain why so many of Corbyn’s team have been having trouble. Question 30 asks if applicants have ever been associated with people or groups who have “intended to overthrow or undermine Parliamentary democracy by political, industrial, or violent means?” A number of Corbyn’s top team are probably going to need more than half a page to give full details on that one…

For your delectation and our delight read about Corbyn's Shadow Chancellor calling for inserrection on the streets. Now do you accept it would probably take a long time for someone such as John Mcdonald to answer question 30. Below you can hear it from the traitors mouth.
Insurrection

FACTS dear boy, FACTS!
Try again

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 18 Sep 18 - 04:49 PM

A number of Corbyn’s top team are probably going to need more than half a page to give full details on that one…

FACTS dear boy, FACTS!
Try again

There is little point continuing this as you can't see the diference between fact and fiction. Care to veryfy what number of Corbyn's top team have been denied security clearance because they been associated with people or groups who have “intended to overthrow or undermine Parliamentary democracy by political, industrial, or violent means?"

Must try harder. Or then again, nah. I couldn't be arsed giving you any further proof of your pin-up's blatant right wing bias.

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Iains
Date: 19 Sep 18 - 12:07 AM

A number of Corbyn’s top team are probably going to need more than half a page to give full details on that one…


If you wish to argue about the validity of facts then choosing as an example a phrase that contains probably merely betrays not only your ignorance of what constitutes a fact but also a woeful deficiency in your understanding of plain english.
The use of the word probably indicates a possible outcome, a surmise, or conjecture. Only the challenged would suppose the outcome is incontrovertible fact.
Trying to explain the obvious to you is really not worth my further time or effort.

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 19 Sep 18 - 01:47 AM

What a bizarre question. Does he print facts that can be verified? yes. The four hacks are voicing opinion and possible outcomes.
...
The use of the word probably indicates a possible outcome, a surmise, or conjecture.


So it is OK for Staines to use possibilities, surmise and conjecture yet when others do it their work is questionable. I think that underlines your infatuation with the man. You need to get yourself a more wholesome hobby.

My work is done.

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 19 Sep 18 - 03:33 AM

He's in love with Staines because every utterance from that nasty POS serves to reinforce his own extreme-right, bigoted views.

Like the Clown of Hertford, he's best ignored.

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Sep 18 - 04:28 AM

He's attemptint to divert the attention away from the fact that neither of these .....whatever have any intention of responding to the points in hand
He has no argument - neither of them have attempted to offer one, so he veers to the merits of his favourite version of Dr Goebbels

"Like the Clown of Hertford, he's best ignored."
He has his uses - the shape of things to come if Britain continues to swing further to the right
As Angela Davis nearly said, "If he comes for us in the morning, who knows who he'll come for in the afternoon if he gets a big enough gang bahind him" (they always run in packs)

Pause for torrent of infantile abuse

"I'm right here Dave."
Right as they come

MORE SHAPES OF THINGS TO COME

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 19 Sep 18 - 04:43 AM

If there's one thing for certain about the Clown of Hertford, it's that he's not 'right there' - in the head at least.

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Iains
Date: 19 Sep 18 - 04:48 AM

"So it is OK for Staines to use possibilities, surmise and conjecture yet when others do it their work is questionable"

Your words, not mine! Your erroneous conclusions, not mine!

I believe the discussion was about your obvious confusion between a known outcome(fact) and a possible/probable outcome(surmise and conjecture)

You apparently are still none the wiser, hence your verbal gymnastics, and abusive response. Typical leftie approach, cannot argue out of a paper bag so lets resort to name calling and insults.

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 19 Sep 18 - 05:37 AM

499...

Go on, you know you want to :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 19 Sep 18 - 05:38 AM

Damn those fingers!

400 :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Sep 18 - 05:47 AM

"It is a bit like shaw, who obviously went to the same maths school as the abbacus , and came away with nought."

Please state which part of the arithmetic I presented is in any way inaccurate. I did admit to a bit of rounding of the figures but that made no substantial difference.

"If talking about a polling result the majority wins. Those that are not enfranchised, could not crawl out of bed, or otherwise abstained, not surprisingly do not count."

Which is nothing to do with what I was talking about. The people you mention are part of the electorate AND part of the population. They are part of the latter along with the millions too young to vote. Clearly, the point that the non-enfranchised young are going to be the most affected for the longest is entirely lost on you.

"Perhaps the Shaw would like to extend the vote to a foetus, or sperm and eggs, or maybe even parrots that can talk."

Nope. Though when I heard some of those "send all the wogs back home" sentiments coming out of Peterborough on the telly the night before last, you do have wonder...

"A total nonsense of course, just like trying to include those that did not vote."

I didn't. I gave you the unarguable numbers of the electorate, the total population and the proportions of both who voted leave. No more, no less. No trying, no fudging, no making stuff up such as "the people have spoken," the mantra of the loony brexit brigade.

"The loony left is not so called frivolous reasons!"

A gibberish sentence but hey ho. Cue more misplaced, childish sarcasm and insults that are nothing to do with what I said...

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Iains
Date: 19 Sep 18 - 06:56 AM

"The loony left is not so called for frivolous reasons!"

There. Fixed it for you.

"Clearly, the point that the non-enfranchised young are going to be the most affected for the longest is entirely lost on you."
So obvious it hardly needs stating. and just what profound point is that supposed to make. Everything we do has the potential to impact on others, both present and future. Everything from casting a vote to polluting the air, as you drive to the supermarket, to buy cases of wine.


And a quiet bit of advice. If you wish to display the errors of others you may find young jimmies a more fruitful field. He has never knowingly completed a correct sentence.

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Sep 18 - 07:49 AM

The profound point is that it was largely the votes of the elderly (look it up) that are propelling us out of the EU, the people like me with guaranteed state pensions paid at the traditional age, the people like me made prosperous by accident via several house-price booms and the people like me with gold-plated final salary pensions. People like me who are largely insulated from the future adverse effects of brexit. Among lots of other bad things, the brexit vote was a supremely selfish and ignorant one that is going to make the young people of today hate our generation for ever more. Still, I won't be worrying about that when I'm six feet under, so why should I care...

Well it wasn't me, guv...

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Iains
Date: 19 Sep 18 - 08:21 AM

Well aren't you the lucky one! What else would you care to boast about?
You have not the slightest idea what caused the electorate to vote the way they did in the referendum. Nor can you get your head around the fact that Labour have been very successful in the last three election polls - at losing!
No matter how much you claim the tories are detested, the sensible electorate detest Labour and Corbyn even more. In essence you support a party that is not going to win in the immediate future.
8 Sep 2018

A quick update on three new voting intention polls in the last day:

Survation for the Daily Mail have topline figures of CON 38%(+1), LAB 37%(-4), LDEM 10%(+4), UKIP 4%(+3). Fieldwork was done wholly on Friday, after the news of Boris Johnson’s seperation from his wife had broken and changes are from their poll earlier this week which had shown a four point Labour lead. The changes are from their poll at the start of the week that showed a four point Labour lead – obviously given the closeness of fieldwork those changes are more likely to be noise than a sudden surge in Lib Dem support within a matter of days! Full details are here.

BMG for the Independent have topline figures of CON 37%(nc), LAB 38%(-1), LDEM 11%(+1), UKIP 7%(+2). Fieldwork was Tuesday to Friday and the (insignificant) changes are from last month. Full tabs are here.

Finally YouGov‘s weekly poll for the Times had headline figures of CON 39%(nc), LAB 35%(-2), LDDEM 11%(+1), UKIP 5%(nc). Fieldwork was on Monday and Tuesday, and changes are from last week. Full tables are here.

All three polls obviously show Labour and Conservative relatively close. Worth noting is that all three have the Liberal Democrats sneaking up into double figures, something that does seem to be part of a wider trend of the Liberal Democrats very gradually starting to recover support.

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Sep 18 - 08:45 AM

Which has all got absolutely nothing to do with what I posted.

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Sep 18 - 08:46 AM

"You have not the slightest idea what caused the electorate to vote the way they did in the referendum"
REASON
PROOF
SHAPE OF THINGS TO COME

"In essence you support a party that is not going to win in the immediate future"
YEAH - SURE!!
Labour has come from the back to near the front in a few years and a deeply divided Government and the fiasco that is Brexit has guaranteed that will Continue
The only thing that cans ave the Tories is Trump sending in the Marines, not beyond the realms of possibility nowadays
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Iains
Date: 19 Sep 18 - 11:29 AM

"Which has all got absolutely nothing to do with what I posted."

That must put me in exalted company then!

A party getting near the front is still behind and will lose. No matter how you wiah to dress it up.

Here is a little gem from Guido: You cannot even rely on sky news for accurate info.


https://order-order.com/2018/09/19/council-house-occupant-actually-labour-activist/

Despite the claims the biggest fall in housing completions occurred from 2007 until the middle of 2010. A rather precipitous fall, all on Labour's watch. But the graph shows the tories valiantly recovered the situation and got the newbuilds back on track

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Sep 18 - 11:34 AM

Tell it to the Marines. You're just talking hope into yourself.

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Iains
Date: 19 Sep 18 - 11:50 AM

I think marines are probably more interested in boats!

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 19 Sep 18 - 01:28 PM

Was the person interviewed a council house tenant?

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Iains
Date: 19 Sep 18 - 02:32 PM

I suggest you refer your question to sky news. After all they reported it as such, and carefully omitted to mention her strong Labour affiliations.

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 19 Sep 18 - 02:50 PM

He was a council house tenant so they told the truth. No issue.

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Iains
Date: 19 Sep 18 - 04:19 PM

He was a she. If you cannot tell the difference you should not be so argumentative.
The Issue was the claim "“housebuilding is down the biggest rate in 24 years”

You must be another from the abacus school of maths that cannot understand simple graphs
A side issue was the portrayal of a labour activist as a simple council house tenant. A tad disingenuous I would say.
And you are the only one making an issue of a virtual irrelevance while ignoring the main argument. I presume abacus maths go well with tunnel vision, thereby allowing sidestepping the obvious issues!

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 19 Sep 18 - 05:44 PM

Sod the centre ground.

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 20 Sep 18 - 02:31 AM

So, she was a council house tenant. The news report told the truth. If all you can come up with as an argument is typos I guess you have no decent argument. Again.

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Iains
Date: 20 Sep 18 - 03:15 AM

S on a keyboard is a long way from H, very difficult to hit, even accidentally. More like inadequate research or lack of proof reading!
The news report was economical with the truth. As I said above, a combination of abacus maths and tunnel vision.
If you bothered to read and understand instead of arguing you would appreciate the lie was the claim that housebuilding was the lowest for 24 years.
In the attached link are some pretty pictures to illustrate the lie.
If you wish to colour them in you will have to find your colouring pencils.

https://fullfact.org/economy/house-building-england/

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 20 Sep 18 - 03:47 AM

On a tablet it is very easy to miss a letter such as the s altogether which makes she he. But you would rather pick holes in someone's typing than come up with a decent argument. The figures quoted are not the point I am making. The interviewee was a council tenant. It is a factually accurate verifiable statement so why question it? Unless you want to disprove that point, I'm done.

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Sep 18 - 03:57 AM

WHAT'S HAPPENING

WHAT WON'T HAPPEN IN BRITAIN

4 MILLION HOMES BACKLOG

1 IN EVERY 200 BRITISH PEOPLE HOMELESS SHELTER

Thatcher removed the rights to rented and affordable homes that Labour had introduced after the sacrifices of the war
The great contradiction of a society is that the a reasonable level of employment in an area will automatically drive up housing prices, so those i need of jobs cannot afford to to live in the ares where they are available
CATCH 22 WRIT LARGE

END RESULT

As Al says
"Sod the centre ground."
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Sep 18 - 03:59 AM

Sod Guido and his sheepish followers too
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Iains
Date: 20 Sep 18 - 04:00 AM

It would also be a factually correct statement point out she was a labour activist, which would have changed the entire ethos of the interview. Instead a partial truth was given.
    This is obviously a little too "deep" for you to catch the nuances of. It was a prime example of Skynews being partisan in its political coverage.

But I suspect pointing out these subtleties is a wasted effort. None so blind.............?

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 20 Sep 18 - 04:23 AM

Well done, Iains. You have seen the truth at last. Both are factually accurate statements but they give an entirely different picture. It is what your pin up boy does all the time. For every Paul Staines there is an Owen Jones. You cannot summon one without the other appearing.

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Iains
Date: 20 Sep 18 - 04:34 AM

Congratulations. I was wondering when you would bring up the usual distraction technique of shoving a few apples among the pears.
Quite what the author of "chavs" has to do with the argument escapes me.
Are you trying to make it a class   issue now?

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 20 Sep 18 - 04:38 AM

No. Just left wing columnist vs right wing columnist. Both get their facts right. Neither give the entire picture. If you cannot see that there is little point in continuing.

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 20 Sep 18 - 04:47 AM

A good blog showing how Staines and Jones are pitted against each other.

Guido Fawked - Owen Jones Smear Hypocrisy

Doesn't show your hero in a good light. But then again he doesn't really need any help with that.

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Iains
Date: 20 Sep 18 - 05:05 AM

But as the crux of the matter was a partisan presentation by skynews
your counter wafflings are an irrelevance.
I) They portrayed a labour activist as an 'umble council house tenant.
2) She gave totally wrong figures about housebuilding over the last 24 years.
3) The skynews presentation showed blatant political bias
4) The discerning viewer needs to be made aware of these shenanigans of the left.

Thankyou Guido.For telling it how it is

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 20 Sep 18 - 06:07 AM

The crux of this thread is the nonsense people are talking about reclaiming the centre ground. The introduction of a right wing blogger is the irrelevance. I am simply balancing the issue by pointing out any number of left wing bloggers could also be introduced.

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Iains
Date: 20 Sep 18 - 06:59 AM

nul points!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Sep 18 - 07:14 AM

"The introduction of a right wing blogger is the irrelevance."
Then why respond to Iains Dave
The fact that neither he or Keith respond to anything anybody else says (aratyt from sneering at it) makes them both glorified bloggers answerable
It's probably a more accurate term than "trolls" to no-one
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 20 Sep 18 - 07:21 AM

There ain't no sanity clause....
And there ain't no centre ground...

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 20 Sep 18 - 07:23 AM

I could, and often do, ask you the same question, Jim :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Sep 18 - 08:18 AM

"I could, and often do, ask you the same question, Jim :-)"
The answer lies with both of us then Dave
Let's keep reminding each other, and everybody else who allows these monologues to continue
Is there really any point responding to people who have developed ignoring what others into a stonewalling technique?
Buggered if I can see one

Yet another of May's staunch supporters have deserted to the other side by describing her Chequers plan as "Dead in the water"
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 20 Sep 18 - 09:36 AM

"Is there really any point responding to people who have developed ignoring what others into a stonewalling technique?"

No. So why do it?

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 20 Sep 18 - 09:43 AM

Good points both. I shall go back to ignoring them.

Prediction. Someone is bound to say that we are running from a fight. Not sure which one though.

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 20 Sep 18 - 10:03 AM

Corbyn's aide Andrew Murray, a member of the Communist Party until his conversion to Labour in 2016 (!) says that MI5 is behind his not getting a Commons security pass, and leaking the fact that he is banned from Ukraine as a Putin stooge.

Tom Watson is not convinced.
Guardian,
"Asked whether he believed the intelligence services were seeking to undermine Labour, Watson said: “I’m assuming they don’t, but if Andrew Murray has more evidence then he should provide it.”
There was a notably ruder response from Ben Wallace, the security minister in the Home Office.
He tweeted: “Oh dear. Sorry to pop the vanity of your own self-importance Andrew but our spooks don’t waste their time pumping out stories to the Mail on Sunday about someone no one has ever heard of. They are too busy trying to stop terrorism & Russian assassination attempts.” "
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/sep/20/tom-watson-says-deep-state-claim-by-corbyn-aide-a-bit-john-le-carre

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 20 Sep 18 - 10:21 AM

"Prediction. Someone is bound to say that we are running from a fight. Not sure which one though."

Who gives a FF. Not me. Their only goal is to be destructive. Fuck 'em.

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Sep 18 - 10:49 AM

It's amazing but not surprising that the hypocrite who posted just before you, John, is the first to complain if WE stray from what he regards as the topics of his threads. Anyone got any clue as to what that post has to do with the centre ground?

But it's my thread and I'm not bothered. I'm just saying, that's all...

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Iains
Date: 20 Sep 18 - 10:53 AM

More bountiful news from Guido. The man with the finger on the pulse.



https://order-order.com/2018/09/13/car-industry-announces-500m-green-brexit-boost/

While Jaguar Land Rover is busy playing politics over Brexit, the rest of the automobile industry is just getting on with expanding their businesses in the UK…

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 20 Sep 18 - 11:51 AM

The only place that onanist has a finger is on his glans penis.

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Sep 18 - 12:52 PM

TORIES ENCORAGE VOTERS TO VOTE UKIP

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Ukip is back thanks to the Chequers backlash
Theresa May’s approach to Brexit is providing the ideal conditions for the party’s revival
Matthew Goodwin

The UK Independence Party might be about to make a comeback. Ever since Theresa May’s Chequers deal on Brexit, which went down very badly indeed among grassroots Conservatives and Leavers, the opinion polls have been kind to the Purple Army.

The week after the Chequers deal went public, one pollster found support for the party had surged by five points to 8 per cent. It might not sound like much, but it is its best showing since March last year. Furthermore, such numbers are more than enough to tilt the balance at the next general election toward Jeremy Corbyn and Labour.

Indeed, it is no coincidence that as Ukip recovered in the polls, the Conservatives found themselves trailing Labour, with one survey handing Jeremy Corbyn a five-point lead — his second highest of the year (Corbyn only needs a two-point swing to get into coalition territory and a five-point swing for a majority). Amid a tight race with Labour, the Tories cannot afford a rebooted revolt on the right.

There are other signs that the self-anointed People’s Army might be about to come off life support. One insider tells me that the party has attracted 2,500 new members since Chequers and around 3,000 in total since the spring. Membership is still a long way from the peak of 40,000 recorded during 2014-2015, but with an estimated 23,000 recruits this still represents a sizeable rebellion to the right of the Conservatives.

More recent polls suggest that nearly 40 per cent of all voters would be open to supporting a new party that was firmly committed to Brexit (which surges to 67 per cent of Conservative voters), while 24 per cent would support an explicitly far-right, anti-immigrant and anti-Islamism party, which should sound a warning note. Ukip 2.0 may well be distinctly less cuddly than the original. It should also be remembered that today we are dealing with an electorate that is far more fluid and less tribal than in earlier years. The perfect cocktail to revive Ukip was never hard to find; start with a ‘BRINO’ (Brexit In Name Only), throw in a liberal immigration policy that looks and sounds a lot like freedom of movement, then add a splash of political denial in Westminster. It is therefore no surprise to find Ukip enjoying a renaissance as a radical right party.

None of this has escaped the attention of Nigel Farage, who stepped down as Ukip’s leader in July 2016 but who is clearly mulling a possible return to the ring. Farage has already committed himself to returning to frontline politics if Article 50 is suspended. But in recent days he went further by stating he would ‘very seriously consider’ putting his name forward to run as Ukip leader if the Chequers compromise is not broken and Brexit is not put ‘back on track’.

All of this flies in the face of earlier predictions that populism is dead in Britain. The argument that the 2016 Brexit referendum had finally put a lid on backlash politics was never a particularly convincing one. On the contrary, the emergence of an army of ‘betrayed Brexiteers’ always looked likely given the mismatch between the vision of Brexit held by many in Westminster and the much cleaner break from Europe favoured by grassroots conservatives.

A similarly flawed argument did the rounds in Brussels and went a bit like this: to show their opposition to the British, Europeans have turned their backs on anti-EU populist parties. Two years on and take a look around Europe: the populist Sweden Democrats (who want a Swexit) just reached no. 1 in the polls; the populist Alternative for Germany are no. 2; the populist Northern League and Five Star are running Italy; the populist Freedom Party is in a coalition in Austria; Slovenia has lurched right; and more than six in ten Hungarians are backing Viktor Orbán’s Fidesz or the formerly neo-fascist Jobbik. If this is a Europe where populism is in full retreat, then I would hate to see the alternative.

Back in Britain, several tributaries now seem to be flowing toward Ukip, or at least the space previously occupied by the party. The largest comprises angry Eurosceptics and grassroots social conservatives who feel betrayed by Brexit. Consider their reaction to the current state of affairs: 76 per cent of Leavers feel that the Prime Minister’s government is negotiating Brexit ‘badly’; 66 per cent believe her vision of Brexit is ‘too soft’; nearly 60 per cent think that the Chequers deal disrespects the referendum result; and half want Mrs May to resign. In fact, among all voters, the Prime Minister’s leadership ratings this week sunk to a record low, while among Leavers her net positive rating has crashed from +10 to -23 in only two months.

These numbers are dismal for a Prime Minister who sought to speak for social conservatives in a way that David Cameron did not. But they are also especially problematic for a Conservative party that since the 2016 referendum has become more dependent on the groups that voted for Brexit; the working-class, true-blue Tories, and non–graduates, many of whom had also voted Ukip in the past. Put simply, this is a profoundly different electorate from that which supported Cameron in 2015 — it is more pro-‘hard’ Brexit, more opposed to immigration and more socially conservative. Some 70 per cent of Tory voters now regard themselves as Leavers. The problem for the Prime Minister and indeed the Tory party is not simply that their voters are disgruntled with the direction of Brexit but that it is precisely those voters who have a pre-existing relationship with Ukip who feel so angry.

But it would be a mistake to view Ukip’s recent recovery solely as a result of the Tory fallout. Also important is how a handful of prominent right-wing social media activists, who typically eschew party politics, have called on their (hundreds of thousands) of followers to enrol in Ukip. Paul Joseph Watson might be an unfamiliar name to readers but he has amassed around 882,000 followers on Twitter by attacking political correctness, Islam, refugees, identity liberalism and what he and his audience argue is excessive virtue signalling across the West.

Figures such as Watson, as well as Raheem Kassam — Nigel Farage’s former chief of staff and a close ally of Steve Bannon — are linked to an increasingly international campaign to support the jailed Tommy Robinson, ex-leader of the English Defence League. His supporters argue that he has been silenced from reporting on ‘grooming gangs’ and other Islam-related topics due to political correctness and a clampdown on free speech (Robinson was actually imprisoned for contempt of court.)

Unlike the Ukip of old, the party’s current leader, Gerard Batten, has been more than willing to enter this orbit in the search for new members and resources, developing links with the pro-Robinson campaign and other groups such as the Democratic Football Lads Alliance. Batten shares many of their views, having variously referred to Islam as a ‘death cult’, described Muhammad as a ‘paedophile’ and warned of an ‘explosion’ of mosques across Europe. To these tributaries we can also add blue-collar workers in more northern Labour seats who loathe the social liberalism and internationalism of their mainly middle-class MPs, and who are looking for meaningful reform on the issue of freedom of movement.

This is a long way away from the climate to which Ukip had become accustomed after the Brexit vote. In the shadow of the Brexiteers’ historic triumph, the party seemed destined for the political graveyard. It took two decades to find political relevance — and less than two years to stage a dramatic collapse. It shed members, money and morale, as well as Farage, who traded politics for media. Ukip also whittled through three leaders, each as ineffectual as the last. Diane James, Paul Nuttall and Henry Bolton each proved unable to halt what looked set to be an inevitable decline. Between the 2015 and 2017 general elections, the party haemorrhaged 3.2 million voters and saw its vote share crash by more than ten points to a derisory 1.8 per cent. Further humiliation followed at this year’s local elections when Ukip did not even qualify for an election broadcast and lost all but three of the 126 seats it was defending, prompting one Kipper to compare his party to the Black Death.

But amid the favourable turn of events, Ukip also finds itself faced with some big questions. The most obvious is whether the party can exploit the current openings. Some insiders openly voice doubts about Batten, including his willingness to indulge toxic groups that would alienate the much larger audience of middle-class conservatives. Explaining the markedly different fortunes of the far-right BNP with the pre-2016 Ukip would not be a difficult essay question to answer. Some also voice anxiety over Batten’s reluctance to engage wholeheartedly with the media.

Another problem is that not everybody in Ukip Land would necessarily welcome the return of Farage. Some influential activists feel that their former leader vacated the pitch at a crucial moment and has since spent more time on the search for media exposure and money than on the battle for Brexit. In the words of one insider: ‘Nigel just assumes that he can walk back in now things are looking good. But he’s spent the past few years slagging off the party, has pissed off a lot of people and also threw his weight behind a series of weak leaders. Batten is the only one who has stabilised us.’ There is also frustration among some senior Kippers that Farage has not fully put his support behind the party: ‘Batten can do things that Nigel cannot, like organise shit at the grassroots level. Nobody is pretending Gerard is a media performer like Nigel, but the thing that grates for a lot of people is that Nigel is not even using his platforms to tell people to join Ukip.’

Meanwhile, some donors are anxious to avoid the return of the divisive Arron Banks, a close ally of Farage, and have let it be known they would withdraw their funding if the old gang were once again to dominate the party. So, while there is unquestionably new demand for a Ukip-style party, the question is whether Ukip as it stands can supply this audience with a unified message and membership — and whether Farage is capable of leading it.

One of the unwritten laws in politics is that challenger parties don’t last long. Either their clothes are stolen by the mainstream, they implode amid infighting, or the political debate simply moves on. It was their short lifespan that led the historian Richard Hofstadter to observe more than half a century ago that challengers are like bees: once they have stung, they die. But in Britain this unwritten law could be about to be tested. Things are looking up for Ukip — it may well be that it is more of a wasp than a bee, and could yet deliver further stings to Britain’s increasingly volatile political system.

S

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Raggytash
Date: 20 Sep 18 - 01:02 PM

That would be Jaguar/Land Rover who announced twwo days ago that they were cutting production post Brexit? A three day week was mentioned.

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Iains
Date: 20 Sep 18 - 01:08 PM

As you obviously love the man, here is another gem:


https://order-order.com/2018/09/20/alistair-campbell-torpedoed-bbc-fact-check/

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Stanron
Date: 20 Sep 18 - 01:19 PM

I saw that this afternoon Iains. Campbell took it rather well I thought. Just for a second the spinning stopped.

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Iains
Date: 20 Sep 18 - 01:28 PM

Stanron.The problem is who to believe? The number for leave and remain are gyrating back and forth like yo-yos, if the polls are to be believed.
It seems to depend on who can create the best/worst news on any day.
To me this would indicate that should a rerun occur, the result would be broadly the same. The downside would be a bitter campaign and an even more fractured society. Also for such treachery to occur, the clock is fast running down.

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Stanron
Date: 20 Sep 18 - 01:43 PM

Did you see the program? I thought it was quite good. Politics Live has replaced the old Daily Politics. On Monday I thought I was watching 'Loose Women Do A Bit OF Politics' except that Loose Women always has a token man on the program. Jacob Rees Mogg had some interesting points on Parliamentary procedure if the Chequers plan is defeated.

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Iains
Date: 20 Sep 18 - 02:23 PM

No I did not, only the clip embedded. I think political programs have lost a lot of ground since the days of the bowtied rotweiler Robin Day.

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Sep 18 - 06:21 PM

"The number for leave and remain are gyrating back and forth like yo-yos, if the polls are to be believed."

What polls? Give me six or seven, minimum, to show the yo-yo gyrations you refer to. Then I won't go around thinking that you make things up as you go along.

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 21 Sep 18 - 02:56 AM

Don't encourage him Steve:-)

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 21 Sep 18 - 02:57 AM

Steve,
Anyone got any clue as to what that post has to do with the centre ground?

It shows how far Labour is lurching to the Far Left, opening their doors not just to people from the Momentum movement but even to members of a rival party of the hardest Left, the Communist Party.

Also this has already been discussed on this thread with you Lefties claiming there was no substance and that such clearance delays were commonplace. The Guardian was quoted in support.
You and the Guardian are now shown to have been wrong.
OK Steve?

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Iains
Date: 21 Sep 18 - 03:43 AM

What polls? Give me six or seven, minimum, to show the yo-yo gyrations you refer to.

Bossy little fellow are you not?

You know what they say: to can lead a horse to water................

Here is a little challenge for you. Go find the required data and then construct the links.

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Stanron
Date: 21 Sep 18 - 03:52 AM

Steve Shaw wrote: What polls? Give me six or seven, minimum, to show the yo-yo gyrations you refer to. Then I won't go around thinking that you make things up as you go along.

Steve. As part of the BBC's new 'Politics Live' format they had someone in the studio checking a range of polls to see whether Alister Campbell's assertion that there was a swing towards a peoples vote was correct. He found that while some polls supported it, an equal number did not. So he could not say definitely that the assertion was correct. It'll be on BBCI player but as a warning it was presented by Andrew Neil and I seem to remember that you are not a fan.

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Sep 18 - 04:06 AM

"opening their doors not just to people from the Momentum movement "
The Tories are now encouraging Ukip members to join the party, have had a foreign secretary who continues to display his boorish racism and has thrown in their lot with FASCIST VIKTOR ORBAN

Momentum, far from being extreme left, was set up top oppose the followers of War Criminal (still to be acknowledged as such by our habitual atrocity supporters), Tory Blurr,
It has no extreme left policy - it opposes the terrorist states while the Tories continue to sell arms to them and it calls for an alternative policy and a return to Socialist Principles

I suppose to anybody who believes an entire cultural community cultural perverts and throws in his lot with a Tommy Robinson fanatic, anybody vaguely to the left of those beliefs is "an extremist

The Communist Party has not been a hard left party since it adopted 'The British Road to Socialism in the early 1960s - it has had Parliamentary aims since then, it has no revolutionary aims and its very existence (whatever that is now) has been to centre on everyday problems of working people and support Trades Unionism
Keith - you are a raving racist and a supporter of Parties who adopt those policies - despite Farage's obvious racist based policies, you claimed him to be a respectable politician
You have supported the acts of racist oppression and mass murder of one of the worst of the terrorist states and you continue to do so
Don't bother to deny this, hyou have built your reputation on it
You are not qualified to accuse anybody of extremism
Stop it now
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Iains
Date: 21 Sep 18 - 04:06 AM

"Then I won't go around thinking that you make things up as you go along."

You really should not judge others by your own standards of behaviour.
It rather lowers the tone!

I always present facts that can be verified independently, because I have integrity. How about you?

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Iains
Date: 21 Sep 18 - 04:14 AM

"I suppose to anybody who believes an entire cultural community cultural perverts and throws in his lot with a Tommy Robinson fanatic, anybody vaguely to the left of those beliefs is "an extremist"

More frothing nonsense off little jimmie. What on earth did he pour over his cornflakes this morning?"

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Sep 18 - 04:40 AM

"More frothing nonsense off little jimmie. More frothing nonsense off little jimmie. "
And more mindless insulting that only tends to underline the nature of the people I am referring to - my thanks for your confirmation
Are you really so unaware of yourself not to realise the picture you present?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Iains
Date: 21 Sep 18 - 04:56 AM

The mindless insulting was from you jimmie. It can either be dismissed as ramblings, or responded to at length. Previous history would suggest the latter to be a wasted effort, besides boring everyone to death.

The solution is easy. Stop writing nonsense and I will cease to treat you as a gibbering idiot.

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Sep 18 - 05:02 AM

No it isn't and you know it otherwise you wouldn't have to behave the way to
persistently do
When you have no argument you behave like a petulant child who can't getr its own way - pretty much as you are doing now
If what I write is "nonsense" argue against is as adults are expected to

You appear to be totally devoid of self respect or self-awareness
Stop behaving like a mindless bully
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 21 Sep 18 - 05:22 AM

Jim, Jim, Jim! What did you tell me yesterday?

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Sep 18 - 05:29 AM

"What did you tell me yesterday?"
Sorry Dave
Iains and Keith are like having a crap - not particularly essential but occasionally necessary
Both of these trolls tend to do your job for you with their behaviour

I see May's Chequers proposals have been kicked into touch by Europe
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 21 Sep 18 - 06:31 AM

So two people here make assertions about polls yo-yo-ing but they can't provide chapter and verse. These polls don't exist, do they? And I'm not even bothered! Who cares what polls say any more!

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Sep 18 - 06:48 AM

It's the overall figure that counts
Labour's fortunes have steadily improved (to the extent that May had to buy the assistance of an iffy political party to surVive after the election.
The smear ploy appears not to have worked, people seem to want a new broom in British politics
The Tories know this, that is why they won't dare put Brexit to a confirming vote but the implications have become clear
Britain will be worse off in every possible scenario, according to Whitehall

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/uk-worse-off-brexit-scenarios-leaked-government-analysis-eu-david-davis-theresa-may-a8184471.html

Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 21 Sep 18 - 07:04 AM

My daughter in law and her Mum will be in Liverpool this weekend for the Women's conference and may stay for some of the main event. I should get news from the horses mouth. Watch this space!

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Iains
Date: 21 Sep 18 - 07:11 AM

" These polls don't exist, do they? "      What an ignorant little fellow.
Each data point tepresents a discrete poll.

But the results are so close any meaningful analysis not possible. It is lost in the statistical noise. As has been most ably illustated by the gross errors of recent prepolls and exit polls.





For the "well educated scientist" that apparently can neither carry out basic research nor construct links.

whttps://whatukthinks.org/eu/are-voters-changing-their-minds-about-brexit/


https://whatukthinks.org/eu/questions/if-a-second-eu-referendum-were-held-today-how-would-you-vote/


https://yougov.co.uk/news/2018/06/23/eu-referendum-two-years/

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 21 Sep 18 - 07:42 AM

Ignore the troll.

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Sep 18 - 08:02 AM

"Ignore the troll."
Not while he continues to ignore everybody else
He is obviously incapable of controlling his infantile behaviour - I din't think anybody here is qualified to deal with someone with that sort of problem without doing more damage than good

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Sep 18 - 08:02 AM

"Ignore the troll."
Not while he continues to ignore everybody else
He is obviously incapable of controlling his infantile behaviour - I din't think anybody here is qualified to deal with someone with that sort of problem without doing more damage than good

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Sep 18 - 08:06 AM

"Ignore the troll."
Not while he continues to ignore everybody else
He is obviously incapable of controlling his infantile behaviour - I din't think anybody here is qualified to deal with someone with that sort of problem without doing more damage than good

Of the three links he puts up, two are from a business funded group once blessed by thatcher, the other is a multi-million pound enterprise that supports the Conservative party

Neither are qualified to tell us what the people think - nor are they to be trusted, with their links to the right
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 21 Sep 18 - 08:26 AM

I shall just remind you of your sage words from yesterday, Jim.

Is there really any point responding to people who have developed ignoring what others into a stonewalling technique?
Buggered if I can see one

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 21 Sep 18 - 09:15 AM

Amen, Dave.

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Sep 18 - 09:16 AM

One day at I time Dave - keep reminding me
I see no reason why we can't keep putting up information as it occurs to us - they have chosen not to respond to anything that doesn't suit them, but others are interested if they are not
In the meantime - "very day in every way we;'re getting better and better" as they saif in 'Days of Wine and Roses' (or was it 'The Man With the Golden Arm'?)
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Iains
Date: 21 Sep 18 - 12:44 PM

Shoot the messenger! Ignore the message. Have we not been down this road before?
An extremely intelligent counter argument! Hardly surprising Labour has lost the last three general elections. No Doubt the abaccus will be appointed shadow chancellor of the exchequer next.

Corbyn and Abbott, the modern Laurel and Hardy!

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Iains
Date: 21 Sep 18 - 12:55 PM

"If what I write is "nonsense" argue against is as adults are expected to"

Wot abaht this then?

"I suppose to anybody who believes an entire cultural community cultural perverts and throws in his lot with a Tommy Robinson fanatic, anybody vaguely to the left of those beliefs is "an extremist"

Give me a meaningful translation and I will respond. Gibberish I do not waste my precious time with.

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Iains
Date: 21 Sep 18 - 01:01 PM

"Guardian journalists have today been emailed by the editor, Kath Viner, a detailed set of company “social media guidelines.” “This document explains how we expect Guardian News & Media (GNM) employees and contributors to behave on social media”. Guido – an occasional contributor to the Guardian – the word rate means it is not worth abiding by the rules at the cost of lost banter. Buried inside the document there is specific clause that was apparently included as a result of complaints about Guardian journalists baiting Owen Jones on Twitter in an uncomradely way.

The ‘Owen Jones Clause’ appears under the subheading of “Tone”.

    “Do not use social media to air internal disputes with colleagues or contributors, or with the Guardian”

Traditionally a drunken punch up outside the Coach & Horses in Clerkenwell was the accepted way to resolve internal disputes between Guardian hacks. Bloody tweeting snowflakes…"

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Sep 18 - 01:30 PM

Get someone with a grasp of literacy to explain it - it's easy enough
Pretending you don't understand something is what children do - your behaviour isn't 'cute' enough to be describd as 'child-like' - it's just malevolently childish
You pass around a petition for a racist thug and don't even have the botle to admit that's what you are doing, rather, you hide behind a 'freedom and fair play' argument that you have refused to extend to those who don't agree with you politically
What's difficult about that ?

Do you really believe "More frothing nonsense off little jimmie" to be behaving like an adult?
Grow up
Beside the point - you and your mate have not attempted to take part in this discussion - youre just here to fuck it up for others
You have attempted to nause up a discussion you have no interest in - that's trolling
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 21 Sep 18 - 01:53 PM

Sorry Jim but you're being played. The more you respond the more they will taunt. It is well known that they only come here to flght. Stop crossing swords with them and they may not go away but they will certainly look foolish.

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Iains
Date: 21 Sep 18 - 02:07 PM

https://www.theguardian.com/music/2009/apr/23/british-folk-music

Folk is seen as the preserve of the left - but the right is muscling in

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 21 Sep 18 - 02:31 PM

Folk against Fascism put paid to the right wing attempt at taking on folk. Chumbawamba did the wonderful "Dance, idiot, Dance" about nasty Nick but it could equally be applied to a couple on here :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Sep 18 - 03:06 PM

You're not responding are you Dave!!
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 21 Sep 18 - 05:44 PM

"But the results are so close any meaningful analysis not possible. It is lost in the statistical noise..."

So your "analysis" that the polls are yo-yo-ing all over the place is just a big fib then.

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 Sep 18 - 01:08 AM

Jim,
Momentum, far from being extreme left, was set up top oppose the followers of War Criminal (still to be acknowledged as such by our habitual atrocity supporters)

….or anybody else. He has never been tried never mind convicted.

Don't bother to deny this

I do. You are a liar. You tell lies about me because you have no answer to what I actually say.

they have chosen not to respond to anything that doesn't suit them,

If that is true, produce an example, liar.

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 Sep 18 - 01:47 AM

Re. polls, FT,
"With the Conservative government in disarray over Brexit and beset by rumours of a leadership challenge against Theresa May, the opposition might expect to be far ahead in the opinion polls. Instead, Labour and the Conservatives are neck and neck. Moreover, a recent YouGov poll found that 20 per cent of the public thought Mr Corbyn was doing well as a leader, compared with 27 per cent for the far from popular Mrs May. “This government is the most incompetent, paralysed government on the biggest issue facing our country since the second world war, and we should be racing ahead, but we aren’t,” says one senior Labour figure. "

"Mr Corbyn believes he is in pole position to become prime minister should Mrs May’s Brexit negotiations collapse and force her to hold yet another general election. Yet Labour is convulsed by internal battles between different wings of the party, by an endless row over anti-Semitism and by enduring doubts about Mr Corbyn’s world views and past associations. MPs also feel besieged by hostile, often offensive grassroots members who accuse them of disloyalty to the leader. Speculation is growing about some of them forming a breakaway, more moderate party.All these tensions raise the question: was last June’s election a staging post towards a Corbyn government, or was it the high watermark of his movement?
https://www.ft.com/content/0c00eb16-bb3d-11e8-94b2-17176fbf93f5

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 22 Sep 18 - 02:50 AM

No, I'm not, Jim. I didn't point out that the article was over 10 years old or that following the attempt to hijack folk music, the BNP was all but destroyed either :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Iains
Date: 22 Sep 18 - 03:03 AM

""But the results are so close any meaningful analysis not possible. It is lost in the statistical noise..."

No point in trying to converse with a fool.

My links supplied clearly show the veracity of my statements.
Is the well educated scientist.ex teach/union activist/self styled wine expert not only incapable of constructing links but apparently unable to open them, and understand the content?

The election of 2015clearly demonstrated the unreliability of trying to predict outcomes.

Below is an article from the gruniard, all in leftard speak, so you may gain a smigin of understanding.


https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/apr/25/dirty-little-secret-opinion-polls-general-election-why-wrong


https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-32751993

"So your "analysis" that the polls are yo-yo-ing all over the place is just a big fib then." No! open the links,

study the graphs and then apologize!


and a little titbit to spoil your breakfast.
Corbyn under investigation for undeclaring numerous foreign trips.
Suspension from Parliament is often the punishment for this.

Still, better out than in, as they say.

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Iains
Date: 22 Sep 18 - 03:41 AM

Results from 38 polls
30 jun 16
leave 42%
Remain 45%

12 Oct 16
Remain 44%
Leave 44%

15May17
Remain 47%
Leave 50%
30May17
Remain36%
Leave 38%

18Aug17
remain 39%
leave 34%
21 Jun 17
Remain46%
Leave 34%

The rest of the data is in the link already provided. As I said the results are up and down like a yo yo.

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Sep 18 - 04:45 AM

I see Keith is still defending the criminality of Tony Blair
He was not triesd on a txchnicality - (aggressive belligerent is not a war crime apparently)
His and Bush's actions in lying about weapons of mass destruction have been filling body bags bags for over a decade and are responsible for the deaths that are still occurring
Keith is supporting the deaths of British soldiers and Iraqi civilians brought about Blair's and Bush's 'Lies for Oil' actions in order top protect a British politician
How sick is that (rhetorical)
About has sick as his supporting Britain selling arms and fighter planes to be used on Yemeni and other Third World People

I tell no lies - I say what he has said - he denies it - I put it up - he walks away from it
Letts try again - here's an example
"Date: 09 Sep 18 - 03:08 PM "
Someone needs a dictionary to find out what the word "lying" means
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 22 Sep 18 - 04:57 AM

"But the results are so close any meaningful analysis not possible. It is lost in the statistical noise..."

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 22 Sep 18 - 05:13 AM

The trouble with your thinking Jim is this.
The hard reality is that we have a choice - two alternatives. As my old Latin teacher used to say - theres no such thing as three alternatives. 'Alter' means two in Latin. The concept of an alternative is a choice between two courses of behaviour. It would be lovely if life was a pick and mix, but its not.

If the conservative party had been in power - all those things would have happened, but the poor people of England would have been even worst off. And Northern Ireland would still be in a state of civil war.

As it was the Labour Party was in the hands of no doubt, a morally flawed man. However he was one capable of interfacing and getting what he wanted out of the media, winning the 43 three marginal seats in parliament and he had the charisma to dominate all sectors of a warring party. In short he had all the clear sightedness and capability to acquire power Corbyn lacks.

Life isn't easy. Politics isn't a divinity class. Please stop telling me about Blair's shortcomings - the country would be in bloody sight better state if the left wingers hadn't succeeded in bundling him out of office, for basically backing America's disastrous foreign policy. It was a choice - a bloody difficult one, knowing that Wilson had paid a heavy price for not backing them over an equally disastrous Vietnam policy.

You know the facts. Stop pretending you don't.

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Iains
Date: 22 Sep 18 - 05:27 AM

Print it out and read it often enough and you may finally gain a glimmer of understanding, but with you adherence to the abbaccus school of lefty maths, such a result defies the odds. After all postwar uk history demonstrates Labour's skill at spending money that is not their own.
Total fiscal irresponsibility is the hallmark of the left in the UK, hence the ongoing comedy by shaw. You are not a scientist, you are an embarrassment.

Here is an article from the International Journal of Public Opinion Research, Volume 28, Issue 1, 1 March 2016, Pages 129–141. Entitled News Reporting of Opinion Polls: Journalism and Statistical Noise.
I suspect they know a tad more about the subject than a pompous, opinionated ex teacher, that lords it over these threads as though he is the sole arbiter of truth. This is the same man that uses whimsy as a copout when shown to be talking nonsense.

https://academic.oup.com/ijpor/article-abstract/28/1/129/2357505?redirectedFrom=fulltext

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Sep 18 - 05:46 AM

There is no point in having a Labour party in office that is no different than the tory party no matter how big the majority
Getting into office has become an objective rather than following the principles that the Party was created for
Blair's policies continue to kill people - that blood is on tte hands of New Labour
I support Corbyn because he makes the right noises, if he doesn't live up to those noises he will have betrayed everybody who voted for him
It really is as simple as that
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Iains
Date: 22 Sep 18 - 06:53 AM

"There is no point in having a Labour party in office"

or anywhere else, come to that!


Finally Wise words from Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Sep 18 - 07:04 AM

More time Now
Can I make this creat about this pair otf trolls (see iIan's posting above for proof of the tollish level they are operating at)
This pair are fundamentalists - their postings are racist and any individual who passes around a petition supporting an animal who believes Breivik made a mistake in not targeting Muslims is beyond belief
Keith is what he is, yet both call us "extremists" and "liars"
Ian's cannot contain his childish behaviour o hurling insults rather than putting up intelligent arguments
Between them they damage thread after thread with their mindless fundamentalism
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Sep 18 - 07:09 AM

"clear (fecking spell-corrector)

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 22 Sep 18 - 08:06 AM

well ignore them...!

Your powers of analysis should have yielded up the fact that you're not going to get much sense from that quarter.

The clue was that Keith thought the 1st World War Generals were anything but homicidal maniacs.

He's on his own in the 'I'm with the maniacs' party.

Ians - well my Aunty was a tory councillor all her life. People with a real interest in politics don't go on like him. constantly trying to out-think the other blokes point of view. THey are inclusive and sensible.

Mind you - I sometimes think the same about you Jim. I just respect what you have done so much in folk music. I sometimes wonder why ideology and desperation to see things improve for poor sections of society. like the travellers doesn't make you want to INCLUDE everyone who will lend a hand.

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Sep 18 - 08:27 AM

"well ignore them...!"
I think we all try - they should not be allowed to use this forum as a hate platform
The Mods used to block the BNP and other such trolls
If people posete hate mail verging on being illegal I really can't see the difference
"I sometimes wonder why ideology and desperation to see things improve for poor sections of society. like the travellers doesn't make you want to INCLUDE everyone who will lend a hand."
Don't I - must have missed that Al

Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Iains
Date: 22 Sep 18 - 10:15 AM

" they should not be allowed to use this forum as a hate platform£

I quite agree. Bon Voyage!

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 Sep 18 - 10:35 AM

Jim,
I tell no lies - I say what he has said - he denies it - I put it up - he walks away from it
Letts try again - here's an example
"Date: 09 Sep 18 - 03:08 PM "

You are a filthy liar Jim.
I do not walk away.
Every one of your accusations is false.

If you had any kind of case or argument you would not have to resort to accusations anyway!

The post you try to refer to, 3.05 not 3.08, merely points out that those people were not charged, their accuser was a fantasist, and the police had to apologise to the families and compensate those still living.