BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 Sep 18 - 10:35 AM

Jim,
I tell no lies - I say what he has said - he denies it - I put it up - he walks away from it
Letts try again - here's an example
"Date: 09 Sep 18 - 03:08 PM "

You are a filthy liar Jim.
I do not walk away.
Every one of your accusations is false.

If you had any kind of case or argument you would not have to resort to accusations anyway!

The post you try to refer to, 3.05 not 3.08, merely points out that those people were not charged, their accuser was a fantasist, and the police had to apologise to the families and compensate those still living.

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Iains
Date: 22 Sep 18 - 10:15 AM

" they should not be allowed to use this forum as a hate platform£

I quite agree. Bon Voyage!

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Sep 18 - 08:27 AM

"well ignore them...!"
I think we all try - they should not be allowed to use this forum as a hate platform
The Mods used to block the BNP and other such trolls
If people posete hate mail verging on being illegal I really can't see the difference
"I sometimes wonder why ideology and desperation to see things improve for poor sections of society. like the travellers doesn't make you want to INCLUDE everyone who will lend a hand."
Don't I - must have missed that Al

Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 22 Sep 18 - 08:06 AM

well ignore them...!

Your powers of analysis should have yielded up the fact that you're not going to get much sense from that quarter.

The clue was that Keith thought the 1st World War Generals were anything but homicidal maniacs.

He's on his own in the 'I'm with the maniacs' party.

Ians - well my Aunty was a tory councillor all her life. People with a real interest in politics don't go on like him. constantly trying to out-think the other blokes point of view. THey are inclusive and sensible.

Mind you - I sometimes think the same about you Jim. I just respect what you have done so much in folk music. I sometimes wonder why ideology and desperation to see things improve for poor sections of society. like the travellers doesn't make you want to INCLUDE everyone who will lend a hand.

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Sep 18 - 07:09 AM

"clear (fecking spell-corrector)

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Sep 18 - 07:04 AM

More time Now
Can I make this creat about this pair otf trolls (see iIan's posting above for proof of the tollish level they are operating at)
This pair are fundamentalists - their postings are racist and any individual who passes around a petition supporting an animal who believes Breivik made a mistake in not targeting Muslims is beyond belief
Keith is what he is, yet both call us "extremists" and "liars"
Ian's cannot contain his childish behaviour o hurling insults rather than putting up intelligent arguments
Between them they damage thread after thread with their mindless fundamentalism
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Iains
Date: 22 Sep 18 - 06:53 AM

"There is no point in having a Labour party in office"

or anywhere else, come to that!


Finally Wise words from Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Sep 18 - 05:46 AM

There is no point in having a Labour party in office that is no different than the tory party no matter how big the majority
Getting into office has become an objective rather than following the principles that the Party was created for
Blair's policies continue to kill people - that blood is on tte hands of New Labour
I support Corbyn because he makes the right noises, if he doesn't live up to those noises he will have betrayed everybody who voted for him
It really is as simple as that
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Iains
Date: 22 Sep 18 - 05:27 AM

Print it out and read it often enough and you may finally gain a glimmer of understanding, but with you adherence to the abbaccus school of lefty maths, such a result defies the odds. After all postwar uk history demonstrates Labour's skill at spending money that is not their own.
Total fiscal irresponsibility is the hallmark of the left in the UK, hence the ongoing comedy by shaw. You are not a scientist, you are an embarrassment.

Here is an article from the International Journal of Public Opinion Research, Volume 28, Issue 1, 1 March 2016, Pages 129–141. Entitled News Reporting of Opinion Polls: Journalism and Statistical Noise.
I suspect they know a tad more about the subject than a pompous, opinionated ex teacher, that lords it over these threads as though he is the sole arbiter of truth. This is the same man that uses whimsy as a copout when shown to be talking nonsense.

https://academic.oup.com/ijpor/article-abstract/28/1/129/2357505?redirectedFrom=fulltext

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 22 Sep 18 - 05:13 AM

The trouble with your thinking Jim is this.
The hard reality is that we have a choice - two alternatives. As my old Latin teacher used to say - theres no such thing as three alternatives. 'Alter' means two in Latin. The concept of an alternative is a choice between two courses of behaviour. It would be lovely if life was a pick and mix, but its not.

If the conservative party had been in power - all those things would have happened, but the poor people of England would have been even worst off. And Northern Ireland would still be in a state of civil war.

As it was the Labour Party was in the hands of no doubt, a morally flawed man. However he was one capable of interfacing and getting what he wanted out of the media, winning the 43 three marginal seats in parliament and he had the charisma to dominate all sectors of a warring party. In short he had all the clear sightedness and capability to acquire power Corbyn lacks.

Life isn't easy. Politics isn't a divinity class. Please stop telling me about Blair's shortcomings - the country would be in bloody sight better state if the left wingers hadn't succeeded in bundling him out of office, for basically backing America's disastrous foreign policy. It was a choice - a bloody difficult one, knowing that Wilson had paid a heavy price for not backing them over an equally disastrous Vietnam policy.

You know the facts. Stop pretending you don't.

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 22 Sep 18 - 04:57 AM

"But the results are so close any meaningful analysis not possible. It is lost in the statistical noise..."

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Sep 18 - 04:45 AM

I see Keith is still defending the criminality of Tony Blair
He was not triesd on a txchnicality - (aggressive belligerent is not a war crime apparently)
His and Bush's actions in lying about weapons of mass destruction have been filling body bags bags for over a decade and are responsible for the deaths that are still occurring
Keith is supporting the deaths of British soldiers and Iraqi civilians brought about Blair's and Bush's 'Lies for Oil' actions in order top protect a British politician
How sick is that (rhetorical)
About has sick as his supporting Britain selling arms and fighter planes to be used on Yemeni and other Third World People

I tell no lies - I say what he has said - he denies it - I put it up - he walks away from it
Letts try again - here's an example
"Date: 09 Sep 18 - 03:08 PM "
Someone needs a dictionary to find out what the word "lying" means
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Iains
Date: 22 Sep 18 - 03:41 AM

Results from 38 polls
30 jun 16
leave 42%
Remain 45%

12 Oct 16
Remain 44%
Leave 44%

15May17
Remain 47%
Leave 50%
30May17
Remain36%
Leave 38%

18Aug17
remain 39%
leave 34%
21 Jun 17
Remain46%
Leave 34%

The rest of the data is in the link already provided. As I said the results are up and down like a yo yo.

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Iains
Date: 22 Sep 18 - 03:03 AM

""But the results are so close any meaningful analysis not possible. It is lost in the statistical noise..."

No point in trying to converse with a fool.

My links supplied clearly show the veracity of my statements.
Is the well educated scientist.ex teach/union activist/self styled wine expert not only incapable of constructing links but apparently unable to open them, and understand the content?

The election of 2015clearly demonstrated the unreliability of trying to predict outcomes.

Below is an article from the gruniard, all in leftard speak, so you may gain a smigin of understanding.


https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/apr/25/dirty-little-secret-opinion-polls-general-election-why-wrong


https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-32751993

"So your "analysis" that the polls are yo-yo-ing all over the place is just a big fib then." No! open the links,

study the graphs and then apologize!


and a little titbit to spoil your breakfast.
Corbyn under investigation for undeclaring numerous foreign trips.
Suspension from Parliament is often the punishment for this.

Still, better out than in, as they say.

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 22 Sep 18 - 02:50 AM

No, I'm not, Jim. I didn't point out that the article was over 10 years old or that following the attempt to hijack folk music, the BNP was all but destroyed either :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 Sep 18 - 01:47 AM

Re. polls, FT,
"With the Conservative government in disarray over Brexit and beset by rumours of a leadership challenge against Theresa May, the opposition might expect to be far ahead in the opinion polls. Instead, Labour and the Conservatives are neck and neck. Moreover, a recent YouGov poll found that 20 per cent of the public thought Mr Corbyn was doing well as a leader, compared with 27 per cent for the far from popular Mrs May. “This government is the most incompetent, paralysed government on the biggest issue facing our country since the second world war, and we should be racing ahead, but we aren’t,” says one senior Labour figure. "

"Mr Corbyn believes he is in pole position to become prime minister should Mrs May’s Brexit negotiations collapse and force her to hold yet another general election. Yet Labour is convulsed by internal battles between different wings of the party, by an endless row over anti-Semitism and by enduring doubts about Mr Corbyn’s world views and past associations. MPs also feel besieged by hostile, often offensive grassroots members who accuse them of disloyalty to the leader. Speculation is growing about some of them forming a breakaway, more moderate party.All these tensions raise the question: was last June’s election a staging post towards a Corbyn government, or was it the high watermark of his movement?
https://www.ft.com/content/0c00eb16-bb3d-11e8-94b2-17176fbf93f5

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 Sep 18 - 01:08 AM

Jim,
Momentum, far from being extreme left, was set up top oppose the followers of War Criminal (still to be acknowledged as such by our habitual atrocity supporters)

….or anybody else. He has never been tried never mind convicted.

Don't bother to deny this

I do. You are a liar. You tell lies about me because you have no answer to what I actually say.

they have chosen not to respond to anything that doesn't suit them,

If that is true, produce an example, liar.

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 21 Sep 18 - 05:44 PM

"But the results are so close any meaningful analysis not possible. It is lost in the statistical noise..."

So your "analysis" that the polls are yo-yo-ing all over the place is just a big fib then.

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Sep 18 - 03:06 PM

You're not responding are you Dave!!
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 21 Sep 18 - 02:31 PM

Folk against Fascism put paid to the right wing attempt at taking on folk. Chumbawamba did the wonderful "Dance, idiot, Dance" about nasty Nick but it could equally be applied to a couple on here :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Iains
Date: 21 Sep 18 - 02:07 PM

https://www.theguardian.com/music/2009/apr/23/british-folk-music

Folk is seen as the preserve of the left - but the right is muscling in

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 21 Sep 18 - 01:53 PM

Sorry Jim but you're being played. The more you respond the more they will taunt. It is well known that they only come here to flght. Stop crossing swords with them and they may not go away but they will certainly look foolish.

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Sep 18 - 01:30 PM

Get someone with a grasp of literacy to explain it - it's easy enough
Pretending you don't understand something is what children do - your behaviour isn't 'cute' enough to be describd as 'child-like' - it's just malevolently childish
You pass around a petition for a racist thug and don't even have the botle to admit that's what you are doing, rather, you hide behind a 'freedom and fair play' argument that you have refused to extend to those who don't agree with you politically
What's difficult about that ?

Do you really believe "More frothing nonsense off little jimmie" to be behaving like an adult?
Grow up
Beside the point - you and your mate have not attempted to take part in this discussion - youre just here to fuck it up for others
You have attempted to nause up a discussion you have no interest in - that's trolling
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Iains
Date: 21 Sep 18 - 01:01 PM

"Guardian journalists have today been emailed by the editor, Kath Viner, a detailed set of company “social media guidelines.” “This document explains how we expect Guardian News & Media (GNM) employees and contributors to behave on social media”. Guido – an occasional contributor to the Guardian – the word rate means it is not worth abiding by the rules at the cost of lost banter. Buried inside the document there is specific clause that was apparently included as a result of complaints about Guardian journalists baiting Owen Jones on Twitter in an uncomradely way.

The ‘Owen Jones Clause’ appears under the subheading of “Tone”.

    “Do not use social media to air internal disputes with colleagues or contributors, or with the Guardian”

Traditionally a drunken punch up outside the Coach & Horses in Clerkenwell was the accepted way to resolve internal disputes between Guardian hacks. Bloody tweeting snowflakes…"

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Iains
Date: 21 Sep 18 - 12:55 PM

"If what I write is "nonsense" argue against is as adults are expected to"

Wot abaht this then?

"I suppose to anybody who believes an entire cultural community cultural perverts and throws in his lot with a Tommy Robinson fanatic, anybody vaguely to the left of those beliefs is "an extremist"

Give me a meaningful translation and I will respond. Gibberish I do not waste my precious time with.

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Iains
Date: 21 Sep 18 - 12:44 PM

Shoot the messenger! Ignore the message. Have we not been down this road before?
An extremely intelligent counter argument! Hardly surprising Labour has lost the last three general elections. No Doubt the abaccus will be appointed shadow chancellor of the exchequer next.

Corbyn and Abbott, the modern Laurel and Hardy!

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Sep 18 - 09:16 AM

One day at I time Dave - keep reminding me
I see no reason why we can't keep putting up information as it occurs to us - they have chosen not to respond to anything that doesn't suit them, but others are interested if they are not
In the meantime - "very day in every way we;'re getting better and better" as they saif in 'Days of Wine and Roses' (or was it 'The Man With the Golden Arm'?)
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 21 Sep 18 - 09:15 AM

Amen, Dave.

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 21 Sep 18 - 08:26 AM

I shall just remind you of your sage words from yesterday, Jim.

Is there really any point responding to people who have developed ignoring what others into a stonewalling technique?
Buggered if I can see one

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Sep 18 - 08:06 AM

"Ignore the troll."
Not while he continues to ignore everybody else
He is obviously incapable of controlling his infantile behaviour - I din't think anybody here is qualified to deal with someone with that sort of problem without doing more damage than good

Of the three links he puts up, two are from a business funded group once blessed by thatcher, the other is a multi-million pound enterprise that supports the Conservative party

Neither are qualified to tell us what the people think - nor are they to be trusted, with their links to the right
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Sep 18 - 08:02 AM

"Ignore the troll."
Not while he continues to ignore everybody else
He is obviously incapable of controlling his infantile behaviour - I din't think anybody here is qualified to deal with someone with that sort of problem without doing more damage than good

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Sep 18 - 08:02 AM

"Ignore the troll."
Not while he continues to ignore everybody else
He is obviously incapable of controlling his infantile behaviour - I din't think anybody here is qualified to deal with someone with that sort of problem without doing more damage than good

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 21 Sep 18 - 07:42 AM

Ignore the troll.

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Iains
Date: 21 Sep 18 - 07:11 AM

" These polls don't exist, do they? "      What an ignorant little fellow.
Each data point tepresents a discrete poll.

But the results are so close any meaningful analysis not possible. It is lost in the statistical noise. As has been most ably illustated by the gross errors of recent prepolls and exit polls.





For the "well educated scientist" that apparently can neither carry out basic research nor construct links.

whttps://whatukthinks.org/eu/are-voters-changing-their-minds-about-brexit/


https://whatukthinks.org/eu/questions/if-a-second-eu-referendum-were-held-today-how-would-you-vote/


https://yougov.co.uk/news/2018/06/23/eu-referendum-two-years/

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 21 Sep 18 - 07:04 AM

My daughter in law and her Mum will be in Liverpool this weekend for the Women's conference and may stay for some of the main event. I should get news from the horses mouth. Watch this space!

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Sep 18 - 06:48 AM

It's the overall figure that counts
Labour's fortunes have steadily improved (to the extent that May had to buy the assistance of an iffy political party to surVive after the election.
The smear ploy appears not to have worked, people seem to want a new broom in British politics
The Tories know this, that is why they won't dare put Brexit to a confirming vote but the implications have become clear
Britain will be worse off in every possible scenario, according to Whitehall

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/uk-worse-off-brexit-scenarios-leaked-government-analysis-eu-david-davis-theresa-may-a8184471.html

Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 21 Sep 18 - 06:31 AM

So two people here make assertions about polls yo-yo-ing but they can't provide chapter and verse. These polls don't exist, do they? And I'm not even bothered! Who cares what polls say any more!

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Sep 18 - 05:29 AM

"What did you tell me yesterday?"
Sorry Dave
Iains and Keith are like having a crap - not particularly essential but occasionally necessary
Both of these trolls tend to do your job for you with their behaviour

I see May's Chequers proposals have been kicked into touch by Europe
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 21 Sep 18 - 05:22 AM

Jim, Jim, Jim! What did you tell me yesterday?

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Sep 18 - 05:02 AM

No it isn't and you know it otherwise you wouldn't have to behave the way to
persistently do
When you have no argument you behave like a petulant child who can't getr its own way - pretty much as you are doing now
If what I write is "nonsense" argue against is as adults are expected to

You appear to be totally devoid of self respect or self-awareness
Stop behaving like a mindless bully
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Iains
Date: 21 Sep 18 - 04:56 AM

The mindless insulting was from you jimmie. It can either be dismissed as ramblings, or responded to at length. Previous history would suggest the latter to be a wasted effort, besides boring everyone to death.

The solution is easy. Stop writing nonsense and I will cease to treat you as a gibbering idiot.

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Sep 18 - 04:40 AM

"More frothing nonsense off little jimmie. More frothing nonsense off little jimmie. "
And more mindless insulting that only tends to underline the nature of the people I am referring to - my thanks for your confirmation
Are you really so unaware of yourself not to realise the picture you present?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Iains
Date: 21 Sep 18 - 04:14 AM

"I suppose to anybody who believes an entire cultural community cultural perverts and throws in his lot with a Tommy Robinson fanatic, anybody vaguely to the left of those beliefs is "an extremist"

More frothing nonsense off little jimmie. What on earth did he pour over his cornflakes this morning?"

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Iains
Date: 21 Sep 18 - 04:06 AM

"Then I won't go around thinking that you make things up as you go along."

You really should not judge others by your own standards of behaviour.
It rather lowers the tone!

I always present facts that can be verified independently, because I have integrity. How about you?

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Sep 18 - 04:06 AM

"opening their doors not just to people from the Momentum movement "
The Tories are now encouraging Ukip members to join the party, have had a foreign secretary who continues to display his boorish racism and has thrown in their lot with FASCIST VIKTOR ORBAN

Momentum, far from being extreme left, was set up top oppose the followers of War Criminal (still to be acknowledged as such by our habitual atrocity supporters), Tory Blurr,
It has no extreme left policy - it opposes the terrorist states while the Tories continue to sell arms to them and it calls for an alternative policy and a return to Socialist Principles

I suppose to anybody who believes an entire cultural community cultural perverts and throws in his lot with a Tommy Robinson fanatic, anybody vaguely to the left of those beliefs is "an extremist

The Communist Party has not been a hard left party since it adopted 'The British Road to Socialism in the early 1960s - it has had Parliamentary aims since then, it has no revolutionary aims and its very existence (whatever that is now) has been to centre on everyday problems of working people and support Trades Unionism
Keith - you are a raving racist and a supporter of Parties who adopt those policies - despite Farage's obvious racist based policies, you claimed him to be a respectable politician
You have supported the acts of racist oppression and mass murder of one of the worst of the terrorist states and you continue to do so
Don't bother to deny this, hyou have built your reputation on it
You are not qualified to accuse anybody of extremism
Stop it now
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Stanron
Date: 21 Sep 18 - 03:52 AM

Steve Shaw wrote: What polls? Give me six or seven, minimum, to show the yo-yo gyrations you refer to. Then I won't go around thinking that you make things up as you go along.

Steve. As part of the BBC's new 'Politics Live' format they had someone in the studio checking a range of polls to see whether Alister Campbell's assertion that there was a swing towards a peoples vote was correct. He found that while some polls supported it, an equal number did not. So he could not say definitely that the assertion was correct. It'll be on BBCI player but as a warning it was presented by Andrew Neil and I seem to remember that you are not a fan.

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Iains
Date: 21 Sep 18 - 03:43 AM

What polls? Give me six or seven, minimum, to show the yo-yo gyrations you refer to.

Bossy little fellow are you not?

You know what they say: to can lead a horse to water................

Here is a little challenge for you. Go find the required data and then construct the links.

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 21 Sep 18 - 02:57 AM

Steve,
Anyone got any clue as to what that post has to do with the centre ground?

It shows how far Labour is lurching to the Far Left, opening their doors not just to people from the Momentum movement but even to members of a rival party of the hardest Left, the Communist Party.

Also this has already been discussed on this thread with you Lefties claiming there was no substance and that such clearance delays were commonplace. The Guardian was quoted in support.
You and the Guardian are now shown to have been wrong.
OK Steve?

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 21 Sep 18 - 02:56 AM

Don't encourage him Steve:-)

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Sep 18 - 06:21 PM

"The number for leave and remain are gyrating back and forth like yo-yos, if the polls are to be believed."

What polls? Give me six or seven, minimum, to show the yo-yo gyrations you refer to. Then I won't go around thinking that you make things up as you go along.