BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Iains
Date: 15 Sep 18 - 12:25 PM

"one even publicised a petition demanding he be released for his racist activities"

Typical jimmie distortion.
Reality Over 500,000 signed a petition because he was arrested, trialed and sentenced in 5 hours. This is not due process and when he was freed on appeal the Appeal Court judges on Wednesday ruled that the court process against Robinson in Leeds was flawed as the proceedings were completed too quickly, and that no details of the case against him were put to Robinson

No one supports his politics here, only his right to a fair trial.
How many more threads are you going to infect by mentioning his name.
Please ask someone to explain to you what the oxygen of publicity.
You appear impervious to explanation.

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Sep 18 - 09:29 AM

THIS FACT OF LIFE HAS BEEN PUT UP SEVERAL TIMES
How many of these people have even bothered to deny it
They make this site their right wing soapbox
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Sep 18 - 09:23 AM

"Boris Johnson and Andrew Brigden are undeniably far right."
Johnson's racism (a province of the right) makes that quite clear
Those who "disagree" tend to share the extremist views of those the defend
Islamophobes here defend Conservative Islamophobia and racist defend Tommy Robinson's racism - one even publicised a petition demanding he be released for his racist activities
They refuse to enter into debate and use these threads to present their own 'monologues'
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Iains
Date: 15 Sep 18 - 09:10 AM

"Boris Johnson and Andrew Brigden are undeniably far right. Just because they don't have Union Jack tattoos, doesn't make them really any different from the likes of Tommy Robinson. And they are the tip of the iceberg. The rot runs very deep in Westminster. "

An opinion! no more, no less.
Many would disagree. Rash statements about where the Tories affiliations lie only invites comparisons with the affilaiations of labour. These are affilations of the latter party their own members accuse them of. Hence the recently publicised CPS investigation of Corbyn supporters(Daily Telegraph 16 hours ago)

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 15 Sep 18 - 08:49 AM

There are more far right MPs in the UK parliament than in any EU parliament. They may claim not to belong to a far right party, but they do belong to a party which affiliates to the far right ECR in the European Parliament, rather than the centre right EPP. There are also MPs who belong to a party whose antecedents are a far right terrorist group in Northern Ireland.

Boris Johnson and Andrew Brigden are undeniably far right. Just because they don't have Union Jack tattoos, doesn't make them really any different from the likes of Tommy Robinson. And they are the tip of the iceberg. The rot runs very deep in Westminster.

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Sep 18 - 05:13 AM

But, Steve, there has been no shift to the right. Everyone knows that.

Not here. No Far right party has a single MP here.
Meanwhile in the EU the Far Right is on the rise everywhere and is already a signicant force in many state Parliaments.

i'm just wondering how we all feel about tory MEPs supporting swedish and hungarian fascists?

I would feel shocked. Any quotes of any Tory supporting them?

all the rubbishy invective and lies directed at Labour by the hypocrites on this forum, eh?

It you include my posts, I only repeated what Labour MPs said about it, so not "rubbishy" or "lies."

Commissioned by the only party to have ever done anything on that scale in answer to allegations of racism?

No other party has had a torrent of complaints about it from its own members.

and recommendations acted upon?

Which of her 20 recommendations have been acted on Dave?

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Sep 18 - 05:05 AM

Go and have a little lie down, why don't you.

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Iains
Date: 15 Sep 18 - 03:14 AM

Like brexiteers, many others in europe want to rein back the creeping federalism agenda of the EU. Of course the trendy blowhards of the left like to pretend this growing number of dissenters are aberrations and like to hide the reality by labeling them as racists, fascists, stupid, or any other gormless epithet that springs to mind.
Far more of a danger to peace is the loopy left, having had past members such as Foot on the payroll of the KGB (as a spy or useful idiot is as yet uncertain), Not forgetting VCorbyn is being investigated by the CPS for hate crime.
Not forgetting of course, additional lunacy by corby's clots, as shown below:
"Corbyn ally tells British workers to launch a 'luxury Communist revolution' where jobs would be abolished thanks to robots

    MP Chris Williamson said it was time to reward the hard work of ordinary people
    He urged them to make Jeremy Corbyn PM to achieve 'luxury Communism'

As the saying goes: They walk amongst us!"

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Sep 18 - 01:06 PM

"The reason I didn't want it mentioned, Jim,"
It appears to be an unavoidable part of the debate
I watched with growing anger Question Time last night - particularly the lady who started on "we must start facing the facts about Muslim terrorism"
It really is time that somebody started to debate the likely causes of the growth of terrorism rather than making it an aspect of culture

I was taken with this piece while I was away

Irish Times, yesterday

NIGHTMARE SCENARIO FOR EUROPEAN ELECTIONS IS CLEARLY ON CARDS
A victory for a far-right candidate to succeed Jean-Claude Juncker could prompt a major political crisis

With elections to the European Parlia¬ment looming in May 2019, the plenary this week in Stras¬bourg, the beginning of the last session before MEPs face the people, was inevitably dominat¬ed by a determination to make the place appear relevant, energetic and sensitive to popular concerns.
But underlying much of the discussions was the recurring theme of the seemingly irresistible electoral rise of the populist, nationalist right and the neo-fascist far-right.
That reality was confirmed by the success of the Sweden Democrats last weekend, although the gains made by the party were less dramatic than predicted.
Parliament’s fightback was reflected in a first for MEPs; the move to invoke against Hungary the EU’s article 7
disciplinary procedure to deal with member states who stray from European values and the rule of law. It saw the country’s defiant and combative prime minister, Viktor Orbán, come to Strasbourg to engage with MEPs in person.
As MEPs voted yesterday by a substantial majority to invoke article 7, what was clear was the depth of anger at both Orbán’s determination, in the name of Christian purity, to keep out migrants, and his attacks on freedom of the press, NGOs, educational rights and democratic values.

SERIOUS EMBARRASSMENT
That is the case even within the centre-right European Peo¬ple’s Party (EPP), where the membership of Orbán’s Fidesz party is a cause of serious embarrassment.
The party’s expulsion from the EPP is now believed
inevitable. Manfred Weber, the EPP’s group leader and Spitzenkandidat (candidate for the European Commission presidency), warned that “We expect the Hungarian govern¬ment to make a move towards their EU partners ... Funda¬mental values must be respect¬ed by all.”
The EPP’s reluctance so far to deal robustly with the Hungarian problem is in no small measure a function of the political landscape emerging for the European Parliament elections and notably the growth of the right.
The Spitzenkandidat system, under which European Parliament party groups name their lead candidate for the commission job and then expect reluctant national leaders to forsake their own prerogative to endorse the candidate who emerges with the largest vote, is a natural fit for the EPP as the parliament’s largest force.
But with the emergence of Emmanuel Macron in France eclipsing its French mem- ber-party, Les Républicains, the loss of the Hungarian bloc could also squeeze the party
electorally and jeopardise its position, not to mention Weber’s ambitions.
Indeed a nightmare Spitzen¬kandidat scenario is being widely touted - that a cross-Eu- rope alliance of the nationalist and far-right parties around their own Spitzenkandidat could, with a fair wind, pass out the EPP and other parties to present European leaders with a Eurosceptic commission president nominee.

"COALITION
Some suggest that a candidate best able to carry that flag for the right would be Italy’s deputy prime minister and interior minister, Matteo Salvini, the leader of the Liga anti-immigrant party, which is in coalition with the Five Star Movement.
Salvini clearly has a Europe¬an vocation and, observers suggest, could easily be prevailed on to stand. He recently met Orbán to discuss a joint anti-immigrant front and claimed they were “walking down the same path”. He then signed up in Brussels to join “the Movement”, the organisa¬tion that former Trump chief strategist Steve Bannon hopes will provide a forum for Europe’s divided far-right.
An expanded populist representation in the parlia¬ment will make building legislative alliances more difficult and would promise a turbulent term. But a victory for their Spitzenkandidat nomination, whether Salvini or another, would certainly prompt a major political crisis. Such a candidate would prove completely unacceptable to European leaders, who would certainly find another candi¬date for the commission job.
The parliament has pledged, however, that it will not ratify any commission president who does not emerge from the Spitzenkandidat system. How a centre-right/left majority of MEPs, which will certainly emerge from the elections, will execute a U-turn to block a Salvini-like commission candidacy will be interesting.

IMPASSIONED APPEAL
This week in Strasbourg also saw an impassioned appeal from the Greek prime minister, Alexis Tsipras, to “progres¬sive” parties to form a common platform for the elections. Tsipras said it “will be more than just one more election, it will be a combat on the basis of principles and values”, with pro-EU forces squaring off against “extreme neoliberal¬ism and far-right populism”.
“We should not let Europe slide back into the past.”
His call is unlikely to be heeded."

Before the Little Brits make this a 'European' issue, yesterday it emerged that Jewish Leaders have CONDEMN MAY FOR BACKING FASCIST ORBAN
Let's see if the Tories hold an enquiry into antisemitism !!

I had a blazing argument with MacColl and Charles Parker once when I suggested that, after the Holocaust, the Wester nations would never let it happen again
It seems to be I was wrong
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 Sep 18 - 11:30 AM

The reason I didn't want it mentioned, Jim, is that you-know-who is very keen to infest any thread in which the words "Labour" or "Corbyn" are mentioned with his sad obsession. A great thing about that letter is that it gives the lie to the notion that people standing up for Palestinians and highlighting the Israeli regime's misdeeds are somehow "leftie extremists." In fact, I'd say that the list of signatories represent what some people's idea of the "middle ground" might be...There are rascals in that list but it shows that there are people of all persuasions willing to think for themselves and follow the road less travelled, which is what flocks of sheep don't do...

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Sep 18 - 11:11 AM

NEARLY FORGOT
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Sep 18 - 11:10 AM

Karen
This remarkable multi-signature letter in yesterday's Times makes the Guardian point and as to date nobody who has accused Labour of the crime "that cannot be mentioned" has steadfastly refused to specify what guilty of, it has to be assumed that it is criticism of Israel
Nice to see that the monologues by the Tommy Robinson contingent are still being treated with the contempt they deserve
Good to be back
Jim

Oslo and Palestine
Sir, It is painful now to recall the hope we had in the Oslo Accords. Twenty- five years on, cynicism and resignation rule. The Israeíi occupation since 1967 has become so entrenched that it is hard to see beyond it. There is a better way, one that does not subordinate the right to self-determination of one people to the security and territorial expansion of another.
Trump’s “deal of the century” will not propose equal rights for Israelis and Palestinians. We do. Thus we endorse the Balfour Centenary Declaration (balfourproject.org), and urge the British government to recognise the state of Palestine alongside Israel on pre-June 1967 lines; uphold international law in deed, including the 4th Geneva Convention that Britain drafted and ratified after the Second World War; give practical effect to UN Security Council Resolution 2334, condemning illegal Israeli settlements; and champion the Arab Peace Initiative, offering regional normality to Israel in return for Palestinian freedom.
Britain and France shaped today’s Middle East. By recognising Palestine now, Britain will advance the long-term peaceful coexistence of both peoples in the Holy Land, strengthen regional stability and bolster the UK’s own national security.
EMILY THORNBERRY,
MP; JACK STRAW;
SIR NICHOLAS SOAMES,
MP; SIR HUGO SWIRE,
MP; DOMINIC GRIEVE,
MP; LEILA SANSOUR, CEO, Open Bethlehem;
RAJA SHEHADEH, author and lawyer;
ILAN BARUCH, former Israeli ambassador to South Africa;
ALON LEIL, former director- general of the Israeli Foreign Ministry
Plus a further 70 signatories at thetimes.co.uk/letters

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: KarenH
Date: 14 Sep 18 - 09:18 AM

Interesting comment on loss of hoped for middle ground in this piece

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/sep/13/palestinians-still-face-apartheid-israel-25-years-after-oslo-accord

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 Sep 18 - 05:49 AM

The hypocritical Labour-bashers here would do well to look into those extremely shady Tory links to right-wing, racist groups in Europe. Then we might just get a welcome moment of silence from them. I s'pose it could be the subject of a thread, but it would attract a ton of whataboutery and would last approx 2min 25 sec. These gentlemen on my right don't like it up 'em, Dave.

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 14 Sep 18 - 05:34 AM

The Chakrabiti inquiry that was fully reported, concluded and recommendations acted upon? Commissioned by the only party to have ever done anything on that scale in answer to allegations of racism? The investigation that the Tories would not dare to undertake into their own racism as they already know what the findings would be? You mean that one?

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Iains
Date: 14 Sep 18 - 04:00 AM

"I suppose they won't look into it..."


Unlike Labour, who started an investigation into "that cannot be mentioned" and promptly dropped it.

Too much incriminating evidence I suppose?

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 14 Sep 18 - 03:51 AM

'i'm just wondering how we all feel about tory MEPs supporting swedish and hungarian fascists? anti-jewish? anti muslim?'

Well if they get them pregnant - it would be the honourable thing to do...

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Sep 18 - 05:27 PM

That's what I was referring to in my post of 07.40am, Pete. Sheds a whole new light on all the rubbishy invective and lies directed at Labour by the hypocrites on this forum, eh? However, as it won't confirm their bias, I suppose they won't look into it...

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: peteglasgow
Date: 13 Sep 18 - 05:16 PM

i'm just wondering how we all feel about tory MEPs supporting swedish and hungarian fascists? anti-jewish? anti muslim?

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 13 Sep 18 - 04:49 PM

Thank you. I do my best :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Iains
Date: 13 Sep 18 - 03:11 PM

You sir, are a spoil sport!

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 13 Sep 18 - 02:48 PM

What Oscar Wilde said about Corbyn? Not sure about that. As William Shakespeare said, you can't believe everything you see on the internet.

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Iains
Date: 13 Sep 18 - 12:40 PM

Exit stage left, blushing all the way.....

You guys need to! What was it Oscar Wilde said about Corbyn and his band of merry men?

"The unspeakable in pursuit of the unelectable!"

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 13 Sep 18 - 11:02 AM

Aaaaahh!

Exit stage left, blushing all the way.....

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Sep 18 - 08:45 AM

Haltwhistle? Mind the Gap...

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 13 Sep 18 - 08:38 AM

Meriden is just the middle of England! No good taking it until the Scots declare UDI. Centre of Britain, well, mainland Britain, is Haltwhistle in Northumberland. Why aye me canny lad.

See, we already have a breakaway claim the middle party!

:D

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Sep 18 - 08:33 AM

Let's occupy Meriden! Let's take back the middle ground! Cut immigration from Solihull and Coventry! Take back control! Declare UDI! I've got the paint pot, now where's that bloody bus!

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 13 Sep 18 - 08:06 AM

"the voice of Middle Britain, whatever that is -approximately Wolverhampton, maybe?) and it isn't even dinner time yet! Talk about confirmation bias..."

Meriden, in the Metropolitan Borough of Solihull, IIRC.

I know I've left, but I was lurking and couldn't resist! OK lads, that's it, back on your heads....

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 13 Sep 18 - 07:59 AM

But, Steve, there has been no shift to the right. Everyone knows that. It has been decreed by, errr, the right wing press, errr...

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Sep 18 - 07:40 AM

It's worse than that, Dave. The Tories are affiliated to the European Conservatives And Reformists Group. Supporting the racist Orban is one thing, but you wanna read what the views of some of those Tory affiliates are...including some meaty stuff THAT WE WILL NOT DISCUSS IN THIS THREAD! Oh yes, read a bit of that and you'll soon hear the grinding sound of stones being rolled across the entrances of whited sepulchres...

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 13 Sep 18 - 07:22 AM

Iains now invokes the view from the burghers of gammonshire.

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 13 Sep 18 - 07:15 AM

I wonder how they will try to blame this on Jeremy Corbyn? While still denying that the shift to the right has not happeneded here?

Tories accused of propping up the far right in Europe

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 13 Sep 18 - 07:04 AM

Didn't May try to undermine parliamentary democracy by passing a bill without voting on it? I guess that's her security clearance revoked then...

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Sep 18 - 07:00 AM

Good heavens. He's invoked the Tory chairman, the Daily Mail, Guido Doodah and Guido's followers (who he claims are the voice of Middle Britain, whatever that is -approximately Wolverhampton, maybe?) and it isn't even dinner time yet! Talk about confirmation bias...

The great thing about the right-wing press and bloggers is that there are so many to choose from to tell you like you think and hope it is. An honest-to-goodness leftie such as me good self could almost feel jealous...

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Iains
Date: 13 Sep 18 - 06:48 AM

And we can rely on Guido to tell it how it is. Study the attached questionaire. IT would take years for some the corbyn dream team to give comprehensive answers that would satisfy the security forces.

https://order-order.com/2018/09/12/another-top-corbyn-aide-working-without-security-clearance/

I recommend a study of the comments section. What middle britain really thinks!

Here is one:
"Question 30 asks if applicants have ever been associated with people or groups who have “INTENDED TO OVERTHROW or undermine Parliamentary democracy by political, industrial, or VIOLENT MEANS?”

John McDonnell has called for "insurrection" against the Tories.

Why does he have a security clearance?

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 13 Sep 18 - 06:43 AM

We certainly will and, in the meanwhile, the right wing shall continue their campaign of accusation and innuendo. The deeper they dig the better as far as I am concerned. They could end up buried :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Iains
Date: 13 Sep 18 - 06:32 AM

Nice bit of spin there!
However many sources state that Iram Awan appears to have failed security checks and has not been issued with an official pass.

We will soon find out who is telling the porkies, will we not?

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 13 Sep 18 - 06:27 AM

Thank you, David C. That confirms what I said earlier. The only reason it has made it in the press and into the minds of the right wing on here is that it involved Corbyn. They are seriously running scared of the man they tell us is unelectable. Long may they shit themselves :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 13 Sep 18 - 06:17 AM

The truth of this matter is this, from the Guardian (as has been said already, no friend of Jeremy Corbyn):

"However, a Labour source said: “We have not been told that any member of staff has been refused a pass or any reasons for why any pass may not have yet been granted.”

With the process of completing the security checks for a pass sometimes taking many weeks and even months, some MPs concede privately that it is not unusual for staffers to start their job before a permanent pass has been issued."

So a non-story given undue prominence by tories and their fellow-travelers in the press.

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Iains
Date: 13 Sep 18 - 06:00 AM

No. I am saying the extreme left cabal monopolizing this thread are apparently unable to argue their way out of a wet paper bag.

" A spokesman for Jeremy Corbyn yesterday told us that while the party did not comment on “staffing matters” (he said it seven times), it was aware “of all the rules in relation to parliamentary passes”. “We deal with them every day, we are aware of the procedures and respect them,” he said. Yesterday’s investigation was launched after Tory MP Leo Doherty wrote to the Serjeant-at-Arms to demand a probe. Tory Party chairman Brandon Lewis told the Daily Mail last night: “This clear breach of security not only puts Parliament at risk, it also raises serious questions about Jeremy Corbyn’s judgment and integrity.”

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 13 Sep 18 - 05:48 AM

Are you trying to say that 45% of potential prime ministers are untrustworthy? Little wonder the electorate want a change...

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Iains
Date: 13 Sep 18 - 05:39 AM

Gladstone, Clinton, Major?????

Tum tee tum tee tum.............

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/women/sex/9810955/Are-adulterous-MPs-now-acceptable.html

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Iains
Date: 13 Sep 18 - 05:32 AM

"Unfortunately, in 2017 infidelity became even more common, perhaps spurred on by modern technology and online websites for married people wanting to play away.

Recent statistics reveal that in over a third of marriages, one or both partners admit to cheating at some point in the relationship.

And a whopping 45% of men and 22% of women say they have cheated on their current partner, according to a survey commissioned by Italian website incontri-extraconiugali.com."

The above statistics make your false outrage look even more ridiculous than usual.

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 13 Sep 18 - 05:23 AM

And if I remember rightly we currently have a government with no overall majority who did not receive the votes of the majority of the electorate.

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 13 Sep 18 - 05:20 AM

I just completed a survey which included the question 'Who would you prefer as the next prime minister, Sajid Javid or Boris Johnson?'. I think it is the first time I have favoured Javid in anything.

Shagging your friends wife is not just adultery. It is not only betrays the trust of his wife but betrays that of a third party. Something that anyone in public office, let alone a potential prime minister, should ever do. If he can lie on that scale, he will lie about anything.

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Sep 18 - 05:13 AM

The Guardian is no supporter of Corbyn.

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Iains
Date: 13 Sep 18 - 05:10 AM

"Why, it just about made it on to page 20 in the Guardian."

The surprise of the day is that it made it to the gruniard at all!

After all a leftist rag must support the leader.

Perhaps they felt it was too major an issue to totally ignore!

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Iains
Date: 13 Sep 18 - 05:06 AM

How can a person have   a sensible discussion on issues when the opposing side try to use adultery as a wet cod to beat the tories with?
Adultery became a non issue shortly after the Profumo case half a century ago. Really boys you need to up the ante a bit.

You are so busy yipping away to your own propaganda that the underlying reality escapes you, those people you so detest were put in place by a majority that do not share your views or beliefs.
Let me emhasize this again for the more challenged amongst you.
They were put in place by a majority that do not share your views or beliefs.

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Sep 18 - 04:59 AM

"... therefore he condones deceit. Either you accept that or the alternative is to accept corbyn is an imbecile. Your choice!"

So hundreds of MPs involved in making false expenses claims are condoning deceit or are imbeciles. Your choice! And all those leavers who supported Boris's bus slogan...deceit or imbecility? Your choice!

Subject: RE: BS: Let's reclaim the centre ground!
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 13 Sep 18 - 04:58 AM

While I was working in a place that I cannot even mention I was accompanied (by armed personnel as it happens) until my security clearance came through. And as I said, it would have been a non story if it had been anyone other than Corbyn. BTW, The Times is owned by Rupert Murdoch and even with its illustrious history has sunk as low as the rest.