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Carole King rewrites history!

GUEST,Tunesmith 10 Sep 18 - 10:49 AM
GUEST,Jack Campin 10 Sep 18 - 11:43 AM
GUEST,keberoxu 10 Sep 18 - 11:45 AM
punkfolkrocker 10 Sep 18 - 11:53 AM
GUEST,Jack Campin 10 Sep 18 - 11:54 AM
gillymor 10 Sep 18 - 12:03 PM
GUEST,Tunesmith 10 Sep 18 - 12:04 PM
keberoxu 10 Sep 18 - 12:06 PM
GUEST,Tunesmith 10 Sep 18 - 12:17 PM
Jeri 10 Sep 18 - 12:37 PM
GUEST,Tunesmith 10 Sep 18 - 12:46 PM
punkfolkrocker 10 Sep 18 - 12:48 PM
GUEST,Tunesmith 10 Sep 18 - 12:51 PM
meself 10 Sep 18 - 01:01 PM
GUEST,Jerry 10 Sep 18 - 01:32 PM
GUEST,Tunesmith 10 Sep 18 - 01:42 PM
Jeri 10 Sep 18 - 01:47 PM
GUEST,Tunesmith 10 Sep 18 - 01:54 PM
GUEST,DTM 10 Sep 18 - 02:45 PM
GUEST,DTM 10 Sep 18 - 02:54 PM
Johnny J 10 Sep 18 - 02:55 PM
GUEST,Tunesmith 10 Sep 18 - 02:58 PM
GUEST,henryp 10 Sep 18 - 03:09 PM
GUEST,Tunesmith 10 Sep 18 - 03:22 PM
gillymor 10 Sep 18 - 03:30 PM
gillymor 10 Sep 18 - 03:36 PM
GUEST,henryp 10 Sep 18 - 03:40 PM
GUEST,Tunesmith 10 Sep 18 - 03:41 PM
gillymor 10 Sep 18 - 03:54 PM
Jim Dixon 10 Sep 18 - 05:59 PM
GUEST,Tunesmith 10 Sep 18 - 06:28 PM
Joe Offer 10 Sep 18 - 06:39 PM
Mr Red 10 Sep 18 - 07:01 PM
robomatic 10 Sep 18 - 07:14 PM
Nick 10 Sep 18 - 07:38 PM
GUEST,Tunesmith 11 Sep 18 - 03:20 AM
Jack Campin 11 Sep 18 - 04:19 AM
GUEST,Tunesmith 11 Sep 18 - 04:34 AM
GUEST,Tunesmith 11 Sep 18 - 04:48 AM
GUEST 11 Sep 18 - 04:54 AM
Johnny J 11 Sep 18 - 04:54 AM
Johnny J 11 Sep 18 - 04:59 AM
Leslie Butler 11 Sep 18 - 05:02 AM
GUEST,Tunesmith 11 Sep 18 - 05:08 AM
GUEST,Tunesmith 11 Sep 18 - 05:57 AM
punkfolkrocker 11 Sep 18 - 06:31 AM
GUEST,Tunesmth 11 Sep 18 - 07:36 AM
gillymor 11 Sep 18 - 08:16 AM
Jack Campin 11 Sep 18 - 08:18 AM
GUEST,keberoxu 11 Sep 18 - 08:34 AM
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Subject: Carole King rewrites history!
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 10 Sep 18 - 10:49 AM

Well, Carole is not being very honest when she tells the story of her life because she has decided to write Neil Sedaka out of the narrative.
Neil gets barely a passing reference in her autobiography, and in her comprehensive interview for the Kennedy Centre, Neil doesn't even get a mention. Now, she probably has "issues" with Neil but talk about rewriting history.


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Subject: RE: Carole King rewrites history!
From: GUEST,Jack Campin
Date: 10 Sep 18 - 11:43 AM

From what (very) little I remember of Neil Sedaka, he was a moany little soft-pop starlet who was deservedly forgotten.

Can't recall any Carole King song either.


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Subject: RE: Carole King rewrites history!
From: GUEST,keberoxu
Date: 10 Sep 18 - 11:45 AM

Really? You can't recall
"You Make Me Feel Like a Natural Woman"?


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Subject: RE: Carole King rewrites history!
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 10 Sep 18 - 11:53 AM

"From what (very) little I remember of Neil Sedaka, he was a moany little soft-pop starlet who was deservedly forgotten.

Can't recall any Carole King song either.
"


British Folk - the music community that broad minded tolerance forgot...


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Subject: RE: Carole King rewrites history!
From: GUEST,Jack Campin
Date: 10 Sep 18 - 11:54 AM

I remember that one line (nothing else of the song) and thought it was Aretha Franklin.


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Subject: RE: Carole King rewrites history!
From: gillymor
Date: 10 Sep 18 - 12:03 PM

Carole K wrote so many great melodies, Under the Boardwalk, Wasn't Born to Follow, You've Got a Friend to name just a few.
AFAIC Sedaka doesn't belong in the same conversation with her though Artur Rubenstein did compliment his piano playing, as I recall.


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Subject: RE: Carole King rewrites history!
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 10 Sep 18 - 12:04 PM

Jack, showing your musically ignorance is not advisable...or at all impressive.


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Subject: RE: Carole King rewrites history!
From: keberoxu
Date: 10 Sep 18 - 12:06 PM

or,
"Will You Still Love Me Tomorrow" ...


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Subject: RE: Carole King rewrites history!
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 10 Sep 18 - 12:17 PM

Everybody will know at least one of Carole King's compositions even if its only the novelty number "( Everybody's doing)The Locomotion" or " Take Good Care of My Baby" which has become a favourite for TV baby products.
   And, surely, "You've Got a Friend" is very well known. And, of course, if you are of a certain age, you will - possibly - know dozens of her songs.


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Subject: RE: Carole King rewrites history!
From: Jeri
Date: 10 Sep 18 - 12:37 PM

Jack knows more than most do about folk music. He's obviously not big on pop, though. Not sure why the comments. Personally, I don't give a shit about Sedaka, don't know about any relationship, and maybe he doesn't mean all that much to her.


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Subject: RE: Carole King rewrites history!
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 10 Sep 18 - 12:46 PM

If Jack doesn't know anything about major names in the history of pop/rock music, why bother making a comment, at all.


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Subject: RE: Carole King rewrites history!
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 10 Sep 18 - 12:48 PM

There was something fairly important about Sedaka..

But right now I've completely forgotten what it was and can't be arsed googling...???

Sadly, I did have an encyclopedic memory up until my late 40s...

King is vastly important, but might have gone a bit wonky in her later years...???


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Subject: RE: Carole King rewrites history!
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 10 Sep 18 - 12:51 PM

Well, Neil was the second best selling pop/rock artist ( Evlis was number one) before the emergence of The Beatles.


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Subject: RE: Carole King rewrites history!
From: meself
Date: 10 Sep 18 - 01:01 PM

Still - when I opened the thread, I thought I was going to find out that she was denying the fall of the Roman Empire or something ... !


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Subject: RE: Carole King rewrites history!
From: GUEST,Jerry
Date: 10 Sep 18 - 01:32 PM

I think she wrote Going Back as well, with Gerry Goffin, which would be more unforgivable if he had been written out of history as well.


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Subject: RE: Carole King rewrites history!
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 10 Sep 18 - 01:42 PM

And, of course, it was Gerry who wrote the words in the early years. Indeed, I bet a lot of listeners think Carole wrote the lyrics to "Will You Still Love Me Tomorrow" because so many young women can identify with them.


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Subject: RE: Carole King rewrites history!
From: Jeri
Date: 10 Sep 18 - 01:47 PM

Sedaka wrote the song "Oh! Carol", and they dated in high school. It doesn't seem all that significant to me. Is who you dated back then a big deal to you? Maybe Neil Sedaka can put it in HIS book.


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Subject: RE: Carole King rewrites history!
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 10 Sep 18 - 01:54 PM

I know this is a folk music forum, but the general ignorance concerning popular music is amazing.
Again, if you don't know anything about pop/rock music and its history, why open your mouth and show your ignorance.
BTW, Jeri, Neil has written HIS book.


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Subject: RE: Carole King rewrites history!
From: GUEST,DTM
Date: 10 Sep 18 - 02:45 PM

Neil mentioned Carole in his book, I'm sure of that (having read it many years ago). The song "Oh Carol" was written using what Neil & Howie Greenfield deemed as one of the most popular girl's name at the time. They thought this would be a good marketing ploy. I don't know what Carol thought of Neil then (or what she thinks now), but she was inspired to write a song (albeit a B-side) in answer to Neil's record. Whether it was a shared joke between them or just a cheap shot to mock him, I don't know.

"Oh Neil" - Carole King


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Subject: RE: Carole King rewrites history!
From: GUEST,DTM
Date: 10 Sep 18 - 02:54 PM

Just found this -
"No one tells a story of thwarted love like Neil Sedaka. Oh! Carol was about Carole King, his high-school girlfriend when they were growing up in Brooklyn".
*Taken from a 2014 article in the UK "Express"


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Subject: RE: Carole King rewrites history!
From: Johnny J
Date: 10 Sep 18 - 02:55 PM

Also composed one of the better Monkees hits "Pleasant Valley Sunday".

"Who were they?" Some of you Mudcatters might ask? :-)

A manufactured American band along the lines of the early Beatles.
"Who? I can vaguely recall one of their songs but it wasn't that memorable. ...."


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Subject: RE: Carole King rewrites history!
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 10 Sep 18 - 02:58 PM

Well, according to Neil they, Neil and Carole, were mates ( indeed, they dated for a while) and he was a sort of mentor to Carole in the early days ( Neil is three years older ).
Neil is a fabulous musician. Virtuoso level on the piano, and voice to die for.
BUT, he has upset so many people ( I think he lacks tact, for one thing) and famously Elton John dropped him as a friend.


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Subject: RE: Carole King rewrites history!
From: GUEST,henryp
Date: 10 Sep 18 - 03:09 PM

Under The Boardwalk? Don't you mean Up On The Roof?

Then there was the classic Will You (Still) Love Me Tomorrow.


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Subject: RE: Carole King rewrites history!
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 10 Sep 18 - 03:22 PM

I guess I'm getting my "ups" and "unders" confused!


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Subject: RE: Carole King rewrites history!
From: gillymor
Date: 10 Sep 18 - 03:30 PM

I mentioned "Under the Boardwalk" but I was thinking "Up on the Roof" which is a more noteworthy song, IMO. Both are written by Goffin/King.


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Subject: RE: Carole King rewrites history!
From: gillymor
Date: 10 Sep 18 - 03:36 PM

"Under the Boardwalk" was written by Kenny Young and Arthur Resnick. My mistake.


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Subject: RE: Carole King rewrites history!
From: GUEST,henryp
Date: 10 Sep 18 - 03:40 PM

From Wikipedia;

"Under the Boardwalk" is a hit pop song written by Kenny Young and Arthur Resnick and recorded by The Drifters in 1964. The opening line of the song references the Drifters' prior hit "Up on the Roof", showing the occasional thermal weakness of the rooftop getaway and setting the stage for an alternate meeting location, under the boardwalk.


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Subject: RE: Carole King rewrites history!
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 10 Sep 18 - 03:41 PM

Here is great documentary about Neil. As I said previously, he was a giant star before The Beatles arrived but, then, like so many other US artists, everything went pear-shaped BUT Neil did make an amazing comeback ( inspired by Carole King's successes ) in the early 1970s.

BBC Sedaka Documentary


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Subject: RE: Carole King rewrites history!
From: gillymor
Date: 10 Sep 18 - 03:54 PM

"The opening line of the song references the Drifters' prior hit "Up on the Roof"
That's probably why I always assumed it was Goffin/King.


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Subject: RE: Carole King rewrites history!
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 10 Sep 18 - 05:59 PM

I'm sure most autobiographies would never get written if their authors had to be totally honest, objective, and candid.


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Subject: RE: Carole King rewrites history!
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 10 Sep 18 - 06:28 PM

But in Carole's case she has deliberately cut a person - a very important person, musically - out of her story AND anyone who knows her story knows that she has chosen to do that.
As I said, she probably has " issues" with Neil but she should have been - and still should be - bigger than that.
Very disappointing.


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Subject: RE: Carole King rewrites history!
From: Joe Offer
Date: 10 Sep 18 - 06:39 PM

I guess her Tapestry (click) album will always be one of my favorites.
Can't say I've ever cared much for Sedaka, although some of his stuff can be interesting.
-Joe-


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Subject: RE: Carole King rewrites history!
From: Mr Red
Date: 10 Sep 18 - 07:01 PM

Well, what would you prefer, folks?
1) A candid telling of the Carole/Neil story which would show neither in a good light one way or another.
2) Or Silence on the subject.

I favour the latter.

From all I have heard they both were part of a NY song manufacturing factory, that in itself produced somewhat derivative fare within one person's work as well as within the factory.

Indeed in a book I once had, entitled "How to be a Successful Songwriter", there was a recurrent theme that went along the lines "Take a song, write new lyrics to it, then write a different tune around the new lyrics". And Neil Sedaka was one one contributor saying just that. (A chapter per songwriter - and most really recognisable names). His early work did have a sameyness quotient. Pop songs do in any given era.

And didn't the BBC documentary with Neil (a classical Juliard Alumnus) have him explaining some of his songs? Curiously I recall him mentioning working with lyricists almost exclusively (if not totally).

Jerry Goffin was a trained chemist according to Carole King.


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Subject: RE: Carole King rewrites history!
From: robomatic
Date: 10 Sep 18 - 07:14 PM

I'm a Carole King fan. I have a copy of Tapestry on CD sommut about the place.

When I was a DJ at the college radio station in the zips Goffin came out with his own album called maybe 'Back Room Blood'. It was okay.

I will confess just this once and just to you guys that I have more than once confused Carole King with Carly Simon. I'm so in vain. (Yeah, she wrote it about me).


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Subject: RE: Carole King rewrites history!
From: Nick
Date: 10 Sep 18 - 07:38 PM

Breaking up is hard to do is an excellent song. And I prefer the slow version to the fast. Always found Neil Sedans slightly irritating. Don't know why, just something about his over bouncy slightly false persona that came across. Bit harsh I dare say. But good musician.


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Subject: RE: Carole King rewrites history!
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 11 Sep 18 - 03:20 AM

Mr Red said:
    "Well, what would you prefer, folks?
1) A candid telling of the Carole/Neil story which would show neither in a good light one way or another.
2) Or Silence on the subject".

Well, what we should have got is choice number 3!
And, that choice has Carole telling the public how massively important Neil was to her musical development and her drive to be a commercial success, and simply leave out the bit where they cease being friends.
They, of course, went to same school. He became the school's resident rock/pop piano player/songwriter. They would get together - even though she was very much "the kid" - and rehearse together. They would work out the chords and arrangements to the latest pop songs.
He was first to get a songwriting contract, and the first to get a recording contract.
She saw him have a number one hit record when his composition "Stupid Cupid" was recorded by Connie Francis,
    He was a huge influence on her both musically and commercially.
    In fact, it would be fair to say that without Neil Sedaka, there may not have been a Carole King.


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Subject: RE: Carole King rewrites history!
From: Jack Campin
Date: 11 Sep 18 - 04:19 AM

OK, I recognize a lot of the Carole King songs mentioned here, just didn't know who did them.

Sedaka is more associated eith ghastly hairdos, polyester suits and a plastic smile than anything musical in my memory. Up there with Ray Conniff in the grim LP cover gallery.


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Subject: RE: Carole King rewrites history!
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 11 Sep 18 - 04:34 AM

Neil wrote terrific pop songs with a sophistication that NO OTHER pop/songwriter at the time possessed, indeed, his use of sophisticated chords was not matched by The Beatles, and then he came back-in the early 70s -and wrote some classic, sensitive singer/songwriter material. "Solitaire" is a fabulous song.
   Indeed, had Neil had the looks of Elvis, and not such a high - but fantastic - voice, his reputation would be much higher.


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Subject: RE: Carole King rewrites history!
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 11 Sep 18 - 04:48 AM

And! If Neil had had Gerry Goffin as his lyricist he would have written " Will you still love me tomorrow", because although Neil's lyricist Howie Greenfield, was great at writing "poppy" lyrics, Gerry wrote by far the more interesting words.


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Subject: RE: Carole King rewrites history!
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Sep 18 - 04:54 AM

Neil Sedaka's voice always reminds me of the ' Not The Nine O'Clock news ' spoof of The Beegees called ' Meaningless Songs In Very High Voices '

Dave H


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Subject: RE: Carole King rewrites history!
From: Johnny J
Date: 11 Sep 18 - 04:54 AM

Neil Sedaka would never have got away with this song in this day and age.

https://youtu.be/g9yYI-upjw4


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Subject: RE: Carole King rewrites history!
From: Johnny J
Date: 11 Sep 18 - 04:59 AM

And this one by Carole King was taken off Radio station playlists after the 1989 earthquake in San Francisco.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6913KnbMpHM

after a DJ inadvertently played it after a news bulletin.


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Subject: RE: Carole King rewrites history!
From: Leslie Butler
Date: 11 Sep 18 - 05:02 AM

Just had a look at the Wikipedia article on Sedaka, and King barely gets a mention because they never performed or composed together. While she was indeed the eponymous sweetheart in 'Oh Carol', that seems to have been constructed as a purely commercial exercise (though that doesn't stop it being a great pop song), and the 'Oh Neil' response was penned by Goffin.


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Subject: RE: Carole King rewrites history!
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 11 Sep 18 - 05:08 AM

Johnny J said "Neil Sedaka would never have got away with this song in this day and age"

Not true! McCartney is still singing, "She was just 17, do you know what I mean".


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Subject: RE: Carole King rewrites history!
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 11 Sep 18 - 05:57 AM

Well, that Bee Gees reference is silly as Neil sang in his natural voice, whereas the Bee Gees in their disco period chose to sing in a manufactured falsetto range.


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Subject: RE: Carole King rewrites history!
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 11 Sep 18 - 06:31 AM

"From all I have heard they both were part of a NY song manufacturing factory,
that in itself produced somewhat derivative fare within one person's work as well as within the factory.

..there was a recurrent theme that went along the lines
"Take a song, write new lyrics to it, then write a different tune around the new lyrics".

..His early work did have a sameyness quotient. Pop songs do in any given era.
"

.. so how is that different or inferior
to any superior minded mudcatter's much lauded time honoured folk song writing tradition...?????

These 1960's pop factory writers had talent and much more of an incentive
to make the effort to actively come up with new tunes,
or at least improved variations on those found to be most enjoyed by other folks......

Smug Folkies disdain popular songs at your peril...
lest our tradition's historic songwriting deficiencies be revealed and mocked
for the the dull pile of formulaic over-cloned tunes and poorly written words that they often/mostly are...


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Subject: RE: Carole King rewrites history!
From: GUEST,Tunesmth
Date: 11 Sep 18 - 07:36 AM

Well, of course, Neil had a very deliberate approach to his composing. He wanted to write very commercial songs that sold millions. And, he achieved that.
He wrote for the times. composing catchy 2min30sec songs that would appeal to teenagers.
He wouldn't have seen his songs as great works of art ( after all, he was the precocious kid who could play Chopin and Bach, beautifully ) but within the musical confines of the day he did push the envelope - harmonically - quite a lot.


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Subject: RE: Carole King rewrites history!
From: gillymor
Date: 11 Sep 18 - 08:16 AM

Wether his stuff was harmonically sophisticated or not it's still just a matter of taste. A lot of great, enduring songs came out of Tin Pan Alley but you'd have to put a gun to my head to make me listen to Sedaka's music at this stage in my life. Just my personal opinion.


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Subject: RE: Carole King rewrites history!
From: Jack Campin
Date: 11 Sep 18 - 08:18 AM

this one by Carole King was taken off Radio station playlists after the 1989 earthquake in San Francisco. ("You Can Feel The Earth Move").

If you can find a copy of the BBC's programme listings magazine The Radio Times for September 11, 2001, you will see an announcement of an orchestral concert in London they intended to broadcast on Radio 3.

They changed that programme at the last minute.

The opening number was intended to be John Adams's Short Ride in a Fast Machine.


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Subject: RE: Carole King rewrites history!
From: GUEST,keberoxu
Date: 11 Sep 18 - 08:34 AM

no one else possessed the sophistication, it says back there.

Ever hear of ABBA ??


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