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BS: Kaiser's Holocaust
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Subject: RE: BS: Kaiser's Holocaust From: Raggytash Date: 22 Sep 18 - 11:32 AM Joe, I have not said more because I know next to nothing about the subject. I was hoping to learn more by opening a thread on the subject. Is that really too difficult to grasp? Talking of other atrocities in different wars, in different parts of the globe does not enhance my knowledge of the Kaiser's Holocaust. Again, is that too difficult to grasp? Those subjects have been discussed again and again ........ and again. So I ask the question again, does anyone know anything about "The Kaiser's Holocaust" |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kaiser's Holocaust From: Jim Carroll Date: 21 Sep 18 - 04:19 AM Should read beginning of the end Jim |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kaiser's Holocaust From: Jim Carroll Date: 21 Sep 18 - 04:19 AM Two books that marked the being and the end of the Imperial system THE KINGS DEPART and WOLVES IN THE CITY The first shows how the German people took up arms against the system that had slaughtered so many people and narrowly failed to create a worker's republic The second is an account of the revolt of the French Army against a Government which had realised the days of Empire were over and marched on Paris with the intention of establishing a military regime - reads like fiction Both still available Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kaiser's Holocaust From: Joe Offer Date: 21 Sep 18 - 02:41 AM Many of us could be interested in the topic you specified, Raggytash. But instead of trying to restrict what others say, what further information can you find to share with us on the topic? When I lived in Berlin, I expected that every black person I encountered would be an American, most likely a soldier. I was surprised to meet a few black people who spoke perfect, unaccented German. I'm supposing they might be descendants of nations colonized by 19th century Germany. Joe |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kaiser's Holocaust From: Jim Carroll Date: 20 Sep 18 - 03:01 PM "I've got another list of books to read before I can get to "Kaisers Holocuast" " No harm in that Rag Add 'The Kings Depart' to the top - one of the best books (the best in my experience) of the disastrous consequences of th fall of the German Empire and the near revolution between the wars Like my dad once said about 'Grapes of Wrath' - if you haven't read it, you're lucky - you've got it to look forward to Jim |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kaiser's Holocaust From: Raggytash Date: 20 Sep 18 - 02:36 PM Joe, The reason I was trying to limit this thread to the Kaiser's Holocaust was because the conversation had lurched into WW1, the German invasion of Belgium and the abuse of the Belgium Congo all of which have been discussed, at length, ad nauseum on numerous occasions. The Kaiser's holocaust was a subject I had not heard of previously and, hopefully, like other people I wish to expand my knowledge. Obviously I was mistaken, that is not a view shared by some on here, and they want to rattle on about the same old tropes again. Sadly I can only presume you are one of them. Truly I am disappointed, I'll go back to the books. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kaiser's Holocaust From: Joe Offer Date: 20 Sep 18 - 01:55 PM Raggytash, rather than trying to limit what other people say, why not say more yourself about the topic you wish to discuss? Guide by adding, not by restricting. -Joe- |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kaiser's Holocaust From: Raggytash Date: 20 Sep 18 - 01:50 PM hoops Jim, ever more hoops. Sadly the topic I wanted to know more about has been swamped by other issues (and before I am accused by the usual people, you are part of this) I've got another list of books to read before I can get to "Kaisers Holocuast" (oh look Nigel I mis-typed it again) so more knowledge on this will have to wait a week or three. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kaiser's Holocaust From: Jim Carroll Date: 20 Sep 18 - 01:38 PM "Then why did you raise the issue?" How dare you comment on what I reaised I mentioned it in passing - not to carry out a discussion with a pair of anti-Irish racists who talk about bogtrotters and brainwashed children Mind your own business Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kaiser's Holocaust From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 20 Sep 18 - 10:17 AM I really have no intention of allowing you to turn this into a discussion of Ireland Then why did you raise the issue? -it was ruled from Westminster Like every other part of Britain, and like every other part it sent its own representatives to Westminster. that WWI was a major factor in bringing the Kaiser's colonialism to an end, Yes, ending abuses such as those mentioned in the OP. It treated the parts of Belgium and France it occupied as colonies, rounding up thousands and shipping them to Germany as slave labour. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kaiser's Holocaust From: Jim Carroll Date: 20 Sep 18 - 05:45 AM I really have no intention of allowing you to turn this into a discussion of Ireland Irleland was culturally ann politically oppressed as a 'holding' of Britain longer than any other country - end of story Back to reality The first thing you notice when you begin to take an interest in Modern history is how much has been left out - even suppressed Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kaiser's Holocaust From: Iains Date: 20 Sep 18 - 05:30 AM Well there is a lot of controversy over the true definition of colony and whether Ireland fits the definition. Since william the conqueror is England a colony of France? At a stretch it could be argued within the pale was partially colonised. Does that define it as a colony? There are several possible candidates for "earlier colonies" than Ireland. These are the English "possessions" in France. Normandy, of course (unless we want to count England as a Norman colony), the duchies of Gascony and Aquitaine, the Counties of Anjou, Poitou, Maine, Touraine, Saintonge, Marche, Perigord, Limousin, Nantes and Quercy. In short, the Angevin Empire in France. We could also possibly count Wales (or at least the Welsh Marches) as an early English Colony, and Cornwall. Later, after the first English lordship of Ireland, but before the second English Kingdom of Ireland, Calais in France was an "English Colony" from 1347 to 1558. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kaiser's Holocaust From: Jim Carroll Date: 20 Sep 18 - 05:13 AM It was a colony in all but name -it was ruled from Westminster Which neatly sidesteps the point of the posting (not) Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kaiser's Holocaust From: Iains Date: 20 Sep 18 - 05:11 AM "Britain's oldest colony left the Empire (almost)" Rubbish! Ireland was one of the three kingdoms of James I of England, VI of Scotland (the others being England and Scotland — England including Wales at the time). He was king of Ireland, it was part of his realm, not a foreign colony. Ireland has never been a British colony. Politically it was the Kingdom of Ireland under the British monarch until 1801, then part of the United Kingdom until 1922. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kaiser's Holocaust From: Jim Carroll Date: 20 Sep 18 - 04:15 AM "Seems to me, that WWI was a major factor in bringing the Kaiser's colonialism to an end, " World War one and The Easter Rising in Ireland (one brought about the other) that it brought about were the beginning of the end of Imperial system - a year late the Russian people walked away from the front and said enough was enough and four years after the war ended, Britain's oldest colony left the Empire (almost) The rise of fascism in Germany was the death throes of the system of Empire THat, for me, is the reason all these subjects are related Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kaiser's Holocaust From: keberoxu Date: 19 Sep 18 - 09:32 PM And then there is A History of Black People in Germany |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kaiser's Holocaust From: keberoxu Date: 19 Sep 18 - 09:23 PM Joe, Raggytash, or wysiwyg might be amongst those interested in this English-language article: Cameroon-German lecturer at Howard University |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kaiser's Holocaust From: Joe Offer Date: 19 Sep 18 - 08:24 PM C'mon. The accusations don't help the discussion. I wonder why World War I would a prohibited topic in this thread. Seems to me, that WWI was a major factor in bringing the Kaiser's colonialism to an end, although European colonialism was not otherwise significantly diminished until the 1960s. -Joe- |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kaiser's Holocaust From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 19 Sep 18 - 01:02 PM it was you who brought up the jingoist propaganda I have posted nothing that could be so described. Another lie Jim. Why not just respond to what I actually say, or say nothing. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kaiser's Holocaust From: keberoxu Date: 19 Sep 18 - 08:53 AM The original poster, I believe, gave this thread the title that it has in order to highlight the book of the same title. I guess the thread title preface 'review' might have made things more specific, but otherwise the focus was clear enough. With or without the 'review' indicator, the focus was to be on the book and the subject of the book. The Guardian review copied by Joe Offer does mention the title of another book, and the book conforms to the subject of the original post. That other book might be worth looking into. I wonder if the ADEFRA activists know of the "die fighting" book. The ADEFRA activists, and the survivors and victims for whom they advocate, might be worth a thread of their very own. There would be a lot of German, unfortunately, as that is the language spoken by these activists. I dare to hope that such a thread might be an improvement over this one. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kaiser's Holocaust From: Jim Carroll Date: 19 Sep 18 - 07:40 AM I don't want you to answer my points Keith - I'm pretty sure nobody does You say we are discouraged from discussing WW1 yet it was you who brought up the jingoist propaganda that encouraged people to enter a slaughter that wiped out entire generations WW1 runs though this like Blackpool runs though rock One side (naming no names) takes sides and describes it as a well-led fight for freedom The other believes it to be five years off slaughter to maintain Empires Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kaiser's Holocaust From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 19 Sep 18 - 06:31 AM We are discouraged from discussing WW1 anymore Jim, but I will answer your "points" if you start another WW1 thread. People who present one as an atrocity and staunchly defend the other (as some have done here interminably) No-one has done that. Quote them if you can. Good luck with that. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kaiser's Holocaust From: Jim Carroll Date: 19 Sep 18 - 06:24 AM Too well known to have to Keith - even they know who they are How about addressing the points ? Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kaiser's Holocaust From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 19 Sep 18 - 06:22 AM People who present one as an atrocity and staunchly defend the other (as some have done here interminably) Really? Quote please. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kaiser's Holocaust From: Jim Carroll Date: 19 Sep 18 - 04:59 AM There were undoubtedly atrocities carried out in Belgium, to some of us, a war based on sending men agaist each other for five years to be slaughtered in the mud was the greatest atrocity of all The deplorable fact that those atrocities were deliberately ed to facilitate a bigger one makes WW1 the killfest is was This sums up how the propaganda was used to send so many millions more to their deaths "Agreeing with the analysis of historian Susan Kingsley Kent, historian Nicoletta Gullace writes that "the invasion of Belgium, with its very real suffering, was nevertheless represented in a highly stylized way that dwelt on perverse sexual acts, lurid mutilations, and graphic accounts of child abuse of often dubious veracity." In Britain, many patriotic publicists propagated these stories on their own. For example, popular writer William Le Queux described the German army as "one vast gang of Jack-the-Rippers", and described in graphic detail events such as a governess hanged naked and mutilated, the bayoneting of a small baby, or the "screams of dying women", raped and "horribly mutilated" by German soldiers, accusing them of cutting off the hands, feet, or breasts of their victims." EXCELLENT SUMMING UP HERE The sickest thing of all was that the "Gallant Little Belgium" that was used to send so many millions to ther deaths has, not so long before, slaughtered ten million Congolese and cut the hands off countless numbers of others, in pursuit of rubber to make an Emperor wealthy Ignoring an atrocity to bring about another atrocity, if ever there was one People who present one as an atrocity and staunchly defend the other (as some have done here interminably) really do have no case Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kaiser's Holocaust From: Joe Offer Date: 19 Sep 18 - 01:50 AM Raedwulf, I think you crossed the line on that last post, so I deleted it. Keith isn't the one killing this thread. He just expressed an opinion that was contrary to yours, and you came unglued. Now, get back to the topic of discussion and stop attacking each other, or we'll have to close the thread. That would be too bad, because it's an interesting topic. There's now a "yellow card" on this thread. Any moderator who sees any more shenanigans here, is encouraged to close the thread. -Joe- |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kaiser's Holocaust From: keberoxu Date: 18 Sep 18 - 06:48 PM Raggytash, I'm not entirely sure what your last post means, but I have PM'd He Who Must Not Be Named. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kaiser's Holocaust From: Raggytash Date: 18 Sep 18 - 04:05 PM Someone turn the house lights down, quickly please. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kaiser's Holocaust From: Raggytash Date: 18 Sep 18 - 04:00 PM I've got mine ready, hope you're going to use BOTH barrels !!! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kaiser's Holocaust From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 18 Sep 18 - 04:00 PM I don't mind admitting I'm either wrong or in the wrong (a subtle difference that probably escapes you), No. You were "wrong" when you denied the Kaiser's atrocities in Belgium, and "in the wrong" when you told me to "fuck off" plus all the other undeserved abuse you posted about my brief, factual and accurate post. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kaiser's Holocaust From: Donuel Date: 18 Sep 18 - 03:39 PM keith relax, it looks like bi polar from here. Besides you don't need some yahoos to define you |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kaiser's Holocaust From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 18 Sep 18 - 03:18 PM Raedwulf, I made one brief post which was factual and accurate. In reply I got this abusive post from you. Why?
Fuck off, Keith. The atrocities attributed to the Germans in WWI (I presume you're referring to WWI rather WWII, but as per fucking usual, you're so damn inaccurate...) were PROPAGANDA. You gullible idiot. Same as the bullshit lies the Germans came out with - "We only invaded Belgium because..." "We only shoot Belgians because..." "You lot used gas first, we only retaliated, honest, guv..." (I have no idea what the German equivalent of 'guv' is...) Do you know or understand anything at all, Keith? Or do your fingers just type of their own accord without reference to whatever passes for your brain? " |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kaiser's Holocaust From: Raedwulf Date: 18 Sep 18 - 02:50 PM Raedwulf, please drop the personal attacks and abuse. Keith - I'll be sure to let you know IF I start, since I know you are unable to tell the difference. {Hint: If someone says something that Keith doesn't like, that doesn't make it a personal attack or abuse} For the rest of it. Veni, vidi, wondered why I'd bother. Not tonight, Josephine! ;-) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kaiser's Holocaust From: Donuel Date: 18 Sep 18 - 02:12 PM https://allthatsinteresting.com/boer-war#34 Jim go ahead and take the present and near future personally, but not history. It makes you look bad. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kaiser's Holocaust From: Jim Carroll Date: 18 Sep 18 - 05:37 AM I regard both 'Genocide' and 'Massacre' as having specific meanings - both deliberate inhuman acts of mass murder The dropping of two atomic weapons on two cities full of civilians I regard as 'mass murder' -massacres rather than genocide I regard the slaughter of peasants by engulfing them in burning petrol massacres...... I regard mismanagement odf economic policies, or ruthless political policies as neither - they are neither genocide or mass murder, rather, they are comparable to wars (just or unjust) to achieve an aim Both can be reprehensible, depending on their objective It is noticeable that those who choose to misuse such terms refuse to discuss the objectives of any of these Robomatic fespays an ignorance of politics of breathtaking proportions - he used the death of people to defend the death of more people How about facing up to your own country's despotic behavior - you might start with the genocide of native Americans in order to create the mess that is Modern America Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kaiser's Holocaust From: Steve Shaw Date: 18 Sep 18 - 04:52 AM I read this whole thread top to bottom before my previous post and I found NOTHING to substantiate your assertion. Equally, you can't substantiate your silly "gang" assertion, the default setting when you're rattled. Jim and I rarely communicate off-forum, in fact I can't remember the last time we did. The trouble with blokes like you on the far right is that you assume that all lefties are trammelled into thinking the same way and slavishly follow the same ideological code. Well we don't, and you don't get it. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kaiser's Holocaust From: robomatic Date: 18 Sep 18 - 01:15 AM They are up there if you take the trouble to read'em Mr. Shaw. And I already done quoted him a couple of times. I call your behavior gang-related as JC has often taken the trouble to speak for himself. Just a bit more repetitively than yourself. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kaiser's Holocaust From: Steve Shaw Date: 17 Sep 18 - 08:50 PM Would you care to expand on which perpetrators of massacres or genocide Jim regards as "ideologically pure," and quote from any of his posts the evidence to support your assertion? Seems to me that you so dearly wanted to tell us your little story that you've constructed this shaky little edifice around Jim to give it context. I call that bad behaviour. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kaiser's Holocaust From: robomatic Date: 17 Sep 18 - 08:36 PM I thank Raggytash for exposing this calamitous period of which I was unaware. I knew the Germans had colonies in Africa but I was sort of 'snowed' by the supposedly outstanding record of the German General von Lettow-Vorbeck who supposedly had the devotion of his African troops and of course after reading a few news articles or online blurbs I only had superficial knowledge. And when I write 'knowledge' I mean 'information'. Not the same thing. And of course Jim Carroll has not for the first time displayed his utter condemnation of those evil colonizers while excusing, ignoring, giving a pass to, maybe even approving of depradations committed by those he regards as ideologically pure, maybe because a great deal of it was indigenous-on-indigenous genocide. Like Cambodia. It reminds me of a conversation I had in college when I was at lunch with my Chinese buddy and a student of Japanese origin. The Japanese student was going on about white colonization across Asia. I don't recall disagreeing with his citations, but then my Chinese friend said: "How about the Japanese takeover of Indonesia's colonies. Not much of a liberation for the local people, was it?" "That's different! Those people didn't want to WORK!" |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kaiser's Holocaust From: beardedbruce Date: 17 Sep 18 - 06:42 PM None so blind... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kaiser's Holocaust From: Jim Carroll Date: 17 Sep 18 - 12:59 PM "Jimmy " Seems that I am right - thanks for making my point Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kaiser's Holocaust From: beardedbruce Date: 17 Sep 18 - 12:55 PM "I always know when you people are making things up when you try to talk your opponents down - it seems a trait" Seems like Jimmy lives out what he says... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kaiser's Holocaust From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 17 Sep 18 - 10:39 AM Jim, my last two posts were in reply to Rag. What "jingoism" Jim? You always have to accuse me of something, never just discussing the issues. What have I said here that you disagree with? If nothing, get off my case. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kaiser's Holocaust From: Jim Carroll Date: 17 Sep 18 - 06:19 AM ??? Has anybody denied any of that Keith - I certainly haven't Your WW1 jingoism is a different matter I, in fact, pointed out that the Keiser massacres were only a small part of a larger picture bound together by the predatory nature of Imperialism My comment was aimed at your crass ly crude misquoting the works of historians you have not read, nor would understand if you had. Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kaiser's Holocaust From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 17 Sep 18 - 04:10 AM Rag, FYI, Subject: RE: BS: Armistice Day (debate) From: Keith A of Hertford - PM Date: 19 Nov 13 - 05:55 AM BBC Jim. Germany admits Namibia genocide German army hanging Hereros (archive pic) Germany's military commander had vowed to wipe out the Herero Germany has offered its first formal apology for the colonial-era massacre of some 65,000 members of the Herero tribe by German troops in Namibia. German minister Heidemarie Wieczorek-Zeul told a commemorative ceremony that the brutal crushing of the Herero uprising 100 years ago was genocide. But the German government has ruled out compensation for victims' descendants. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kaiser's Holocaust From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 17 Sep 18 - 03:17 AM Rag, if you meant me, I posted about those African massacres some years ago now as evidence of the Kaiser's evil, so no I did not learn anything new. I wonder if Raedwulf has now learned that the Kaiser's armies really did carry out massacres of civilians and children in Belgium during the invasion, and it was fact not propaganda, despite all the abuse he directed at me. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kaiser's Holocaust From: keberoxu Date: 16 Sep 18 - 07:19 PM When I looked around online, Raggytash, I searched on the term "schwarzer Deutscher," or black Germans. My search brought up the notice of an exhibition and panel of speakers at the University of Cologne (Universität zu Köln) in 2017, from 30 November to 18 December. The exhibit was meant to demonstrate "marginalisierte Geschichte" -- the Black Germans' "marginalized History." Of course the webpage is all in German (my search engine allowed me to put the page through a translator). Did you know about this which follows? I never did till now: There is a movement in Germany of which the initiators are women -- some of them, women with white-German mothers and African fathers. ADEFRA: Afro-deutsche Frauen |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kaiser's Holocaust From: Raggytash Date: 16 Sep 18 - 11:27 AM Sadly I am not at all surprised that certain factions do not want to discuss the subject of the topic in my opening post. As I said I knew nothing of the subject before attending a lecture this week. I had hoped we could enlighten ourselves about a period of history which I feel few, if any of us, knew anything about. Not surprisingly the usual subjects do not want to learn anything new. I shall read the book I purchased and the link Jim provided with interested. Meanwhile back to the music in town. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kaiser's Holocaust From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 16 Sep 18 - 11:01 AM So, was I right or not? If not, please list any errors. Good luck with that. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kaiser's Holocaust From: Jim Carroll Date: 16 Sep 18 - 07:20 AM Don't get Keith started on his "real historians selling books in real bookshops" kick Raed - that way lies madness Jim |
