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BS: What utter rubbish!

Raedwulf 15 Sep 18 - 05:07 PM
Raggytash 15 Sep 18 - 05:31 PM
Iains 15 Sep 18 - 05:46 PM
meself 15 Sep 18 - 05:54 PM
Raedwulf 15 Sep 18 - 07:19 PM
Iains 16 Sep 18 - 04:06 AM
Senoufou 16 Sep 18 - 04:22 AM
Keith A of Hertford 16 Sep 18 - 04:33 AM
Senoufou 16 Sep 18 - 04:40 AM
Mr Red 16 Sep 18 - 05:04 AM
Mr Red 16 Sep 18 - 05:07 AM
Keith A of Hertford 16 Sep 18 - 05:18 AM
Jim Carroll 16 Sep 18 - 05:56 AM
Steve Shaw 16 Sep 18 - 07:40 AM
Raedwulf 16 Sep 18 - 12:08 PM
Doug Chadwick 16 Sep 18 - 01:42 PM
Raedwulf 16 Sep 18 - 03:18 PM
Keith A of Hertford 17 Sep 18 - 10:55 AM
Little Hawk 19 Sep 18 - 11:31 AM
Little Hawk 20 Sep 18 - 10:39 PM
Dave the Gnome 21 Sep 18 - 05:52 AM
Roughyed 21 Sep 18 - 08:44 PM
Keith A of Hertford 22 Sep 18 - 12:53 AM
Stanron 22 Sep 18 - 01:34 AM
Keith A of Hertford 22 Sep 18 - 01:51 AM
Dave the Gnome 23 Sep 18 - 03:56 AM
Keith A of Hertford 23 Sep 18 - 11:16 AM
Little Hawk 23 Sep 18 - 12:16 PM
Little Hawk 23 Sep 18 - 12:25 PM
Dave the Gnome 23 Sep 18 - 12:32 PM
Dave the Gnome 23 Sep 18 - 12:37 PM
Keith A of Hertford 23 Sep 18 - 03:49 PM
Backwoodsman 23 Sep 18 - 03:57 PM
Keith A of Hertford 23 Sep 18 - 04:04 PM
Dave the Gnome 23 Sep 18 - 04:31 PM
Keith A of Hertford 24 Sep 18 - 03:43 AM
Dave the Gnome 24 Sep 18 - 04:11 AM
Keith A of Hertford 24 Sep 18 - 07:24 AM
Dave the Gnome 24 Sep 18 - 10:54 AM
Keith A of Hertford 24 Sep 18 - 04:55 PM
Keith A of Hertford 24 Sep 18 - 05:13 PM
Dave the Gnome 25 Sep 18 - 04:38 AM
Keith A of Hertford 25 Sep 18 - 06:20 AM
Jim Carroll 25 Sep 18 - 06:29 AM
Dave the Gnome 25 Sep 18 - 06:34 AM
Keith A of Hertford 25 Sep 18 - 06:48 AM
Dave the Gnome 25 Sep 18 - 06:57 AM
Jim Carroll 25 Sep 18 - 07:47 AM
Keith A of Hertford 25 Sep 18 - 09:29 AM
Dave the Gnome 25 Sep 18 - 10:03 AM
Keith A of Hertford 25 Sep 18 - 10:18 AM
Raedwulf 26 Sep 18 - 12:10 PM
Keith A of Hertford 27 Sep 18 - 09:46 AM
Dave the Gnome 27 Sep 18 - 09:59 AM
Keith A of Hertford 27 Sep 18 - 10:17 AM
Dave the Gnome 27 Sep 18 - 10:27 AM
Keith A of Hertford 27 Sep 18 - 10:31 AM
Dave the Gnome 27 Sep 18 - 10:38 AM
Keith A of Hertford 27 Sep 18 - 10:48 AM
Dave the Gnome 27 Sep 18 - 10:56 AM
Keith A of Hertford 30 Sep 18 - 02:56 AM
Jim Carroll 30 Sep 18 - 04:36 AM

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Subject: BS: What utter rubbish!
From: Raedwulf
Date: 15 Sep 18 - 05:07 PM

It's very rare that I create a new thread, almost unheard of, but I saw this and... went "Arrrrgh!", frankly. Not just one "hero", if you want to use that word. There were hundreds of them. The article itself says he served in a Polish squadron! Yes, exactly!!

Josef Frantisek may or may not have been a hero. He died long ago, but there were hundreds of them. Czechs, Poles, and others who fled from the Nazis to fight against them for... Not for us, necessarily. Remember that. They fought for their own reasons. They fought WITH us because we were still fighting. Many of them stayed afterwards because they grew to love us & we grew to love them. At least, then. Now, I'm not so sure. Now, you'd think that no-one ever knew that They; Poles, Czechs, the Free French Forces, etc; fought for us as well as themselves.

It's not that I wish to diminish Josef Frantisek in any way. But this is sloppy journalism made worse by the fact that it seems to be based solely on the release of a film that undoubtedly includes a great deal of story-telling fantasy with little connection to reality.

I know it's two months early, but remember them. All of them. Not just the named ones. There were hundreds & thousands of them. Not the Anzacs & the Canucks et al who had ties to the "Mother Country". All the others; whether, for you, they had names or faces. Remember them too. They fought; not for us, that is also fatuous; because they had to, same as ours did. Nevertheless!

Remember them. They fought.


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Subject: RE: BS: What utter rubbish!
From: Raggytash
Date: 15 Sep 18 - 05:31 PM

Many years ago a friend of mine applied to join the RAF, he was well qualified, an educated and erudite man. He was turned down because his father was Polish.

His Father was the same man who had made it to England in the 1940's to join the RAF and fly planes in the war against the Nazi's.


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Subject: RE: BS: What utter rubbish!
From: Iains
Date: 15 Sep 18 - 05:46 PM

The largest foreign contingent in the RAF during the battle of Britain
were Poles. Foreign pilots comprised just over 20% of RAF pilots during the battle of britain. I knew there were a number of Polish pilots but the actual figures are far higher than I thought. The numbers also include 9 from Ireland.


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Subject: RE: BS: What utter rubbish!
From: meself
Date: 15 Sep 18 - 05:54 PM

Okay, I read the article - and I really don't understand what your beef is ... ?

Quote: "The Imperial War Museum calls Frantisek the "top scorer" of the Battle of Britain, and he is generally considered to be one of the top scorers of the entire war, despite his death in its very early stages."

So why not make a movie about him, and why not write an article about it? I suppose I'm a bit dense, but I couldn't find anything objectionable in the article.

Btw, since we're on the subject - my father remembered fondly the Polish airmen who took him in when he had been shot down over France. They had an aerodrome to themselves and seemed to be operating with considerable autonomy. And there was a language issue. It took a couple of weeks for him to get back to England; until then, he was 'missing in action'.


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Subject: RE: BS: What utter rubbish!
From: Raedwulf
Date: 15 Sep 18 - 07:19 PM

My 'beef' with the piece is... Well, I don't much like the word hero, I confess. I am not one, I am never likely to be called one, but if it ever happened, I think I would be very uncomfortable with it. "Hero is a four letter word!" You are there, and you do what needs to be done because you are there, and if you don't, who else will? From what I have read over the years, most of those to whom the word hero has been applied have given or would give you much the same answer. "I did it because it needed to be done. Anyone else would have done the same."

The second reason for my "beef" is "The". If the first part of my 'beef' was unclear, surely the second was? There wasn't just one Czech. He was in a Polish Squadron. There were thousands upon thousands of the displaced who fought with us. The latter part of the article is better, but the presentation overall is "The Czech". No. There were lots of Czechs. And lots of others too.

Remember them. All of them. They fought.


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Subject: RE: BS: What utter rubbish!
From: Iains
Date: 16 Sep 18 - 04:06 AM

A breakdown by nationality of Battle of Britain pilots


https://www.indy100.com/article/battle-of-britain-remembering-all-the-foreign-pilots-who-fought-for-the-raf-7309621


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oX_wqn1ILE8


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Subject: RE: BS: What utter rubbish!
From: Senoufou
Date: 16 Sep 18 - 04:22 AM

Goodness, just look at that bar graph which Iains linked! Huge number of Polish pilots, more than any other foreign group.

My father was in the RAF during the War, wireless-operator/signaller I think (he had a lightning flash logo on his uniform). He often spoke about the Poles who flew with him and said they were grand chaps.


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Subject: RE: BS: What utter rubbish!
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 Sep 18 - 04:33 AM

Rag, is it possible that friend was turned down for some other reason?

The Poles continued their fight for Poland with us, and we should be grateful because they made a difference both in the air and on land.

Most stayed because Poland remained occupied after the war, by Stalin.


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Subject: RE: BS: What utter rubbish!
From: Senoufou
Date: 16 Sep 18 - 04:40 AM

My naughty mum (she was in the WAAF) used to say the Polish airmen were devastatingly gorgeous! And she also fancied the Americans...
Both my parents were in the Air Force long before War broke out.


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Subject: RE: BS: What utter rubbish!
From: Mr Red
Date: 16 Sep 18 - 05:04 AM

I have done some audio recording of old folk in the area round Stroud. There is a long history of Poles in our area. The one consistent story is of the bravery of Polish airmen. "The bravest of the Brave" is the common description.

One lass used to travel in dad's van delivering groceries and she asked her dad why a friendly Pole stayed. Her reply was he couldn't go back, he would probably be killed. And plenty stayed so it was a general fear. Feelings ran high between Poland and Russia, despite the fact they were saviours, of a kind.

One old lad was conscripted to work - delivering coal as a teenager, luckily in West Germany. So after the war he decided to settle where the Poles had congregated in the UK. But not until 1960ish! They had ex-pat type Polish dances and celebrations.

Thomas Nawrot


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Subject: RE: BS: What utter rubbish!
From: Mr Red
Date: 16 Sep 18 - 05:07 AM

more stories about Poles


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Subject: RE: BS: What utter rubbish!
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 Sep 18 - 05:18 AM

The Russians were no kind of saviours of Poland.
They collaborated with Hitler in their dual invasion of Poland in 1939, held back their forces in 1944 to allow the germans to destroy the Warsaw rising and imposed a brutal occupation after the war using the Red Army to quash any and every struggle for democracy.


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Subject: RE: BS: What utter rubbish!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Sep 18 - 05:56 AM

The Russians had their own problems Keith with 11,000,000 of ts soldiers (killed and missing) as well as somewhere between 7,000,000 and 20,000,000 million of its civilian
Britain's refusal to open a Second Front didn't help any of this
Polish heroism during WW2 puts present day Polonophobia regarding Polish workers, where, it is reckoned, Britain's 850,000 Polish citizens are likely to experience a negative backlash after Brexit into context
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: What utter rubbish!
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Sep 18 - 07:40 AM

Can we please have thread titles that give at least a smidgeon of a clue as to what the thread's about.


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Subject: RE: BS: What utter rubbish!
From: Raedwulf
Date: 16 Sep 18 - 12:08 PM

Steve, if I'd wanted to do that, I'd have given it a different title. So there! :p ;-)


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Subject: RE: BS: What utter rubbish!
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 16 Sep 18 - 01:42 PM

Raedwulf,
I read the article and, like meself above, I can't see what your problem is. It doesn't say that he was THE Czech but, rather, A Czech "who flew with a fury none of the others could match". This does not belittle the significant and heroic contributions made by others, both British and non-British.

The article goes on to acknowedge the role of both Poles and Czechoslovaks in the Battle of Britain.
"According to the Imperial War Museum, 145 Polish airmen fought in the Battle of Britain, 79 in various RAF squadrons, 32 in No. 302 (Polish) Fighter Squadron and 34 in No. 303 (Polish) Fighter Squadron
There were also two Czechoslovak fighter squadrons, 310 Squadron and 312 Squadron, both based at Duxford in Cambridgeshire for the duration of the Battle of Britain
".

DC


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Subject: RE: BS: What utter rubbish!
From: Raedwulf
Date: 16 Sep 18 - 03:18 PM

Different opinions, Doug. The impression I got is obviously not the same as yourn or Meself. Takes all sorts to make a world, dunnit? ;-) As I said, it improves as it goes on, but it definitely left me with an impression of "The Czech" and, even more, "We wouldn't have written this only there's this film out". Which is a bit... naff, really, ain't it?


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Subject: RE: BS: What utter rubbish!
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 17 Sep 18 - 10:55 AM

The Russians had their own problems Keith

What problems were they having in 1939 when they invaded Poland with Hitler?
What problem were they having after the war when they used the Red Army to brutally put down any attempt at democracy in Poland?


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Subject: RE: BS: What utter rubbish!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 19 Sep 18 - 11:31 AM

Do I see flies gathering?


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Subject: RE: BS: What utter rubbish!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 20 Sep 18 - 10:39 PM

You know...around the rubbish? Rubbish attracts flies.


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Subject: RE: BS: What utter rubbish!
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 21 Sep 18 - 05:52 AM

My Dad was Polish and he settled here after the war with his whole family. Father, Mother, Brother and Sister. It was further complicated by his Dad, my Grandad, being Russian and an orthodox priest. He had already left Russia because of communist oppression. I will never know the full story now but I believe, while in Russia, my Grandad was incarcerated and his young bride, my Grandma, along with her baby son, my Dad, had to make it back to Poland under her own steam. A journey of some 1200 miles from Kropotkin to Bielystok. A lot of it on foot and living off what she could forage.

My Dad, 17 years old when Po!and was invaded, was forced to work for both the Germans and Russians in turn and eventually joined the 8th army in Italy. I will never get to the bottom of that either! We do have his war record and it was nothing remarkable apart from being put in the glass house for unlawfully discharging his weapon at the Scottish transit camp where his parents were being kept.

Thankfully we have never had to suffer those depredations and, hopefully, never will. Without wishing to get too political, is it any wonder that I am for the European Union that has helped to maintain the peace in Europe all these years?


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Subject: RE: BS: What utter rubbish!
From: Roughyed
Date: 21 Sep 18 - 08:44 PM

This book gives a good account of the history of the Polish airmen in the main.
Question of Honour
If you ever go to Monte Cassino you would be amazed that anyone could climb it, never mind fight their way up and take it. I am lucky and honoured to be the husband of a daughter of two Polish parents who were both heroes amongst many other heroes.


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Subject: RE: BS: What utter rubbish!
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 Sep 18 - 12:53 AM

I do not attribute European peace to the EU, but to democracy and Nato.


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Subject: RE: BS: What utter rubbish!
From: Stanron
Date: 22 Sep 18 - 01:34 AM

Keith, I normally agree with everything you say but on this issue the scales are finely balanced. The maintenance of peace is at the theoretical heart of the EU. Britain, France and Germany have not been at war since so in that respect, at least, it has not failed. Having said that I acknowledge that Nato has been vital in keeping us at peace with the rest of the world.

I'm an unapologetic Brexiteer. My preferred Brexit is 'No Deal'. However I happily concede that some of the ideology behind the creation of the EU is valid. Peace in Europe is a valid ideal. However this is now bundled with a whole load of other stuff that I just want my country to be free from.


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Subject: RE: BS: What utter rubbish!
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 Sep 18 - 01:51 AM

OK Stanron, but democracies just do not go to war with each other.


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Subject: RE: BS: What utter rubbish!
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 23 Sep 18 - 03:56 AM

Hitler's party formed a legitimately democratic coalition government. That democracy created the conflict that all those Czechs and Poles fought against.


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Subject: RE: BS: What utter rubbish!
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 Sep 18 - 11:16 AM

Hitler's party formed a legitimately democratic coalition government.

No it did not. A democracy requires political opposition, a free press and an independent judiciary.

Britain fought against Hitler's regime. The Czechs and Poles resisted the invasion of their countries.


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Subject: RE: BS: What utter rubbish!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 23 Sep 18 - 12:16 PM

"Although the Nazis won the greatest share of the popular vote in the two Reichstag general elections of 1932, they did not have a majority. Hitler therefore led a short-lived coalition government formed with the German National People's Party. Under pressure from politicians, industrialists, and the business community, President Paul von Hindenburg appointed Hitler as Chancellor of Germany on 30 January 1933. This event is known as the Machtergreifung ("seizure of power").

On the night of 27 February 1933, the Reichstag building was set afire. Marinus van der Lubbe, a Dutch communist, was found guilty of starting the blaze. Hitler proclaimed that the arson marked the start of a communist uprising. Violent suppression of communists by the SA was undertaken nationwide and 4,000 members of the Communist Party of Germany were arrested. The Reichstag Fire Decree, imposed on 28 February 1933, rescinded most civil liberties, including rights of assembly and freedom of the press. The decree also allowed the police to detain people indefinitely without charges or a court order. The legislation was accompanied by a propaganda wave that led to public support for the measure.

In March 1933, the Enabling Act, an amendment to the Weimar Constitution, passed in the Reichstag by a vote of 444 to 94. This amendment allowed Hitler and his cabinet to pass laws—even laws that violated the constitution—without the consent of the president or the Reichstag. As the bill required a two-thirds majority to pass, the Nazis used the provisions of the Reichstag Fire Decree to keep several Social Democratic deputies from attending, and the Communists had already been banned. On 10 May, the government seized the assets of the Social Democrats, and they were banned on 22 June. On 21 June, the SA raided the offices of the German National People's Party – their former coalition partners – and they disbanded on 29 June. The remaining major political parties followed suit: the Bavarian People's Party, Centre Party, and the German People's Party all disbanded. On 14 July 1933 Germany became a one-party state with the passage of a law decreeing the NSDAP to be the sole legal party in Germany. The founding of new parties was also made illegal, and all remaining political parties which had not already been dissolved were banned. The Enabling Act would subsequently serve as the legal foundation for the dictatorship the NSDAP established. Further elections in November 1933, 1936 and 1938 were Nazi-controlled, with only members of the NSDAP and a small number of independents elected."


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Subject: RE: BS: What utter rubbish!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 23 Sep 18 - 12:25 PM

So....Hitler's party *initially* did come to power through a democratic election, but the democratic institutions in Germany did not remain so very long after that. The country was very quickly turned into a dictatorship through Hitler's appointment as Chancellor and through the passing of the Reichstag Fire Decree and further legislation after that.

However, it is utterly naive for anyone to assert that "democracies do not go to war with each other". :D They most certainly do, and for the usual reasons (money, resources, trade, empire, competition, etc). I'd have to figure that you were joking or being ironical, Keith, when you said that democracies don't go to war against each other. All it requires is to convince a very slender majority of the public to go along with the war, and that is generally accomplished by skillful use of media and propaganda.


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Subject: RE: BS: What utter rubbish!
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 23 Sep 18 - 12:32 PM

Although the Nazis won the greatest share of the popular vote in the two Reichstag general elections of 1932, they did not have a majority. Hitler therefore led a short-lived coalition government formed with the German National People's Party.

Democracy

In March 1933, the Enabling Act, an amendment to the Weimar Constitution, passed in the Reichstag by a vote of 444 to 94.

Democracy

On 14 July 1933 Germany became a one-party state

Not democracy.


I repeat

Hitler's party formed a legitimately democratic coalition government. That democracy created the conflict that all those Czechs and Poles fought against.


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Subject: RE: BS: What utter rubbish!
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 23 Sep 18 - 12:37 PM

And, yes, Little Hawk, I agree. What you are about to get involved in though is an insane discussion on what does and does not constitute a democracy. You cannot win I'm afraid as the rules will change as you go along. You have been warned!


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Subject: RE: BS: What utter rubbish!
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 Sep 18 - 03:49 PM

Any examples of democracies going to war with each other?


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Subject: RE: BS: What utter rubbish!
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 23 Sep 18 - 03:57 PM

"All it requires is to convince a very slender majority of the public to go along with the war, and that is generally accomplished by skillful use of media and propaganda."

Very much like Brexit, then.


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Subject: RE: BS: What utter rubbish!
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 Sep 18 - 04:04 PM

Guardian,
" Exceptions to the democratic peace can be explained away and largely prove the rule. "

"To find an example of war between democracies we must go back to the Peloponnesian War. Athens's attack on Syracuse refutes the hypothesis, yet it is questionable whether the Athenians knew that Syracuse possessed a democratic polity or whether the rule of democratic peace applies to ancient warlike republics."
https://www.theguardian.com/notesandqueries/query/0,,-3134,00.html


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Subject: RE: BS: What utter rubbish!
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 23 Sep 18 - 04:31 PM

1914. Both the UK and Germany were democracies. 100 years later both Israel and Palestine are democracies.

Little Hawk. Just watch for the rule changes now.


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Subject: RE: BS: What utter rubbish!
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Sep 18 - 03:43 AM

Palestine is not a state and has never gone to war as a state.
All Israel's wars have been with surrounding Arab dictatorships.

At the beginning of World War I, Germany was a constitutional monarchy in which political parties were limited to the legislative arena. They could control neither the government nor the military. In no sense a democracy.

Guardian,
"Is it true that no two democracies have ever gone to war with each other? "

" Exceptions to the democratic peace can be explained away and largely prove the rule. " Steven Curtis, School of International Studies Coventry University

He calls it the rule of democratic peace. No a wacky idea of mine but a respected and accepted rule of history and philosophy.

"To find an example of war between democracies we must go back to the Peloponnesian War. Athens's attack on Syracuse refutes the hypothesis, yet it is questionable whether the Athenians knew that Syracuse possessed a democratic polity or whether the rule of democratic peace applies to ancient warlike republics."


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Subject: RE: BS: What utter rubbish!
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 24 Sep 18 - 04:11 AM

See what I mean?


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Subject: RE: BS: What utter rubbish!
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Sep 18 - 07:24 AM

I have not changed any rules Dave, just stated facts.

Can you point to anything I have got wrong?
No!


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Subject: RE: BS: What utter rubbish!
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 24 Sep 18 - 10:54 AM

Let me explain something to anyone who is interested. This may include you, Little Hawk. The opening poster, Raedwulf, is already aware. I no longer respond to Keith and you have just witnessed a perfect example of why. The fact that there are a number of sources that accept that Germany at the outbreak of WW1 was a parliamentary democracy. This does not fit in with his argument so he will stone wall that and, whatever anyone else says, he will just quote the 'eminent historians ' (yes, he will use that phrase) that agree with him. If any others are brought to bear, they will be dismissed on any number of grounds.

On the second example, it is a generally accepted fact that there is a long running conflict between 2 democracies, Israel and Palestine. Most people would accept that as being a war between 2 democratic states. Not Keith. He will say either it is not a war of that Palestine is not a democratic state.

He does this because he has to win at all costs. He admits himself that he comes on Mudcat to argue and he only picks the arguments that he thinks he can 'win'. There will be no compromise. No giving in. No conceding of any ground whatsoever until he pushes so hard that you will crack and at that point. You lose. Yes, he will say that as well.

The only way to keep your sanity is to ignore him. Trust me on this.


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Subject: RE: BS: What utter rubbish!
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Sep 18 - 04:55 PM

I no longer respond to Keith and you have just witnessed a perfect example of why.

Yes, because you get exposed as lacking knowledge, as when you claimed the invasion of Poland as an example and LH pointed out that that Hitler abandoned any pretence at democracy years earlier.

The Kaiser's Germany was no democracy either.

The Palestinian Authority/PNA/Palestinian government has never been in a state of war with Israel.
Britannica,
" The increasingly violent power struggle between ?amas and Fatah resulted in a split between the West Bank, run by Fatah through the emergency PA government, and the Gaza Strip, controlled by ?amas. Israel and other members of the international community moved to aid the West Bank, offering shows of economic and diplomatic support for Abbas and Fatah while cutting aid to the Gaza Strip."

https://www.britannica.com/place/West-Bank#ref944077
So not at war. OK Dave?


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Subject: RE: BS: What utter rubbish!
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Sep 18 - 05:13 PM

Kaiser's Germany 1914,
"As a legislative body, the Reichstag had no say in the decision to declare war first on Russia and then on France. In fact, it was not even in session when the war began."

"At the beginning of World War I, Germany was a constitutional monarchy in which political parties were limited to the legislative arena. They could control neither the government nor the military. At the end of the war, the political system had been transformed into a – albeit short-lived – parliamentary monarchy in which the political and military branches of the executive were designed to be fully responsible to the Reichstag and in which members of the legislative branch were able to serve in government as well. "
https://encyclopedia.1914-1918-online.net/article/governments_parliaments_and_parties_germany

So, still no examples then Dave.


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Subject: RE: BS: What utter rubbish!
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 25 Sep 18 - 04:38 AM

From the first search I did.

Q. How "democratic" was Germany prior to WWI?
A. There are two historiographic answers to the question of "how democratic was Imperial Germany" and both lay out persuasive points for both a (soft) affirmative and the negative.


So there is a difference of opinion even amongst historians.

Now, we just wait for why the one that does not agree with Keith is wrong. That is just the way it works. There is honestly no point in pursuing the argument any further as it just gives this thread killer more of a platform.


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Subject: RE: BS: What utter rubbish!
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Sep 18 - 06:20 AM

I have given you the facts of how undemocratic the regime was.
The elected body only did legislation and was not consulted over declaring war on Russia and France. It was not even sitting.

Waiting to see how you regard that as democratic.


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Subject: RE: BS: What utter rubbish!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Sep 18 - 06:29 AM

Why allow this jingo to re-fight WW1 Dave ?

All he's interested in is the attention you are giving him
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: What utter rubbish!
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 25 Sep 18 - 06:34 AM

See what I mean? Not even an acknowledgement that not even all historians agree on it. There is honestly no point in even providing links. The historians who disagree will simply be dismissed for any number of reasons.

I have put up the case that Germany was a democracy in 1914. Some historians agree with that. I have put up the case that Israel and Palestine are 2 democratic states at war. I am not going to get drawn in to the endless cycle of my sources are better than your sources.

Not that any of this has any relevance to the thread whatsoever anyway. I'm out of here and will PM Raedwulf with my condolences on the demise of his thread.


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Subject: RE: BS: What utter rubbish!
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Sep 18 - 06:48 AM

I have given you facts, not any historian's opinion.
You could call it a democracy because there was an elected body, the Reichstag.
However it only did legislation and had no say on policy or such trivial matters as declaring war and invading major powers, so the limited democracy had no relevance to the start of WW1.

They would not even have been consulted if they were sitting, which they were not. All facts Dave.

There was no democratic input into the invasions of France, Russia and Belgium by the Kaiser's brutal armies.
Facts Dave, not anyone's opinion.

You are again proved wrong. You should take your own advice and not even try to debate with me.
You just end up looking silly, as now.


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Subject: RE: BS: What utter rubbish!
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 25 Sep 18 - 06:57 AM

Tell you what though, Jim. His sense of humour seems to have improved. Well, sense of the ridiculous anyway :-)


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Subject: RE: BS: What utter rubbish!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Sep 18 - 07:47 AM

He's 'funny' - I'll give you that
I don't think it has much to do with humour hough


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Subject: RE: BS: What utter rubbish!
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Sep 18 - 09:29 AM

So identify an error in anything I have posted.
Here are some of yours so far Dave,

Hitler's invasion of Poland was an example of democracies at war!
Ha ha ha ha.

That the Palestinian government, supported as it is by Israel, had at some stage been to war with Israel!
Ha ha ha ha.

That it was a demonstration of democaracy when Germany went to war in 1914, and not just a whim of the Kaiser and his Prussian military who answered to no-one else in the regime!
Ha ha ha ha.

It happens every time Dave.
You get into an argument about things you know nothing about, end up looking very silly and vowing never to do it again.
And then you do!
Ha ha ha ha.


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Subject: RE: BS: What utter rubbish!
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 25 Sep 18 - 10:03 AM

I agree, Raedwulf. They should all be remembered. Enough of the media hype that turns the select few into heroes. I am sure they ones brought to the fore are as courageous as they say but so were millions more. We should never forget that.


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Subject: RE: BS: What utter rubbish!
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Sep 18 - 10:18 AM

I can agree with you on that Dave. Well said.


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Subject: RE: BS: What utter rubbish!
From: Raedwulf
Date: 26 Sep 18 - 12:10 PM

I've only time to dip into the 'cat briefly. Dave - yes, I see 'why', now, your PM. You will have recognised my response immediately, I'm sure! And here's another thread well and truly fu… Keithed. Keith, apparently, means 'wood'. So Keith Wood, well, he had to become a rock star, didn't he, otherwise how would he have dealt with the problem? ;-)

Whereas Mudcat has Woodicus Keithus, who is much mea culpa (except it's not me or you...), and if you're thinking 'two' 'wood'... Go on, see if you can finish the well-known English phrase for yourself! ;-) (No, golf is not involved! :p ).

I cannot improve on Dave's comments in the least. This thread was polluted the moment Keith introduced a complete & utter irrelvance. It is beyond saving. As the OP, if I am so entitled, may I please ask a mod to now close it. It cannot serve any useful purpose from here.


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Subject: RE: BS: What utter rubbish!
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 27 Sep 18 - 09:46 AM

Raedwulf, you are being dishonest about me again. Joe picked you up on that in another thread.

It was Mr Red who introduced Russia as a saviour of Poland, an outrageous claim that could not go unchallenged.

Dave made the claim that EU had kept the peace in Europe, and I just pointed out that democracies do no make war on each other anyway.

He decided to make that the main subject for discussion then. I would have left it at that.

Nothing I have posted could possibly be described as "polluted."
You would not be able to actually quote anything inappropriate from me.

Try and find something. Good luck with that.

Keith introduced a complete & utter irrelvance.

The title rules nothing out or in, as Steve complained.


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Subject: RE: BS: What utter rubbish!
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 27 Sep 18 - 09:59 AM

Raedwulf - Take my advice. Do not interact with him. That route only leads to insanity :-)


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Subject: RE: BS: What utter rubbish!
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 27 Sep 18 - 10:17 AM

You could not take your own advice Dave, and the result was I proved you wrong. Again.
That is what drives you mad I suppose.


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Subject: RE: BS: What utter rubbish!
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 27 Sep 18 - 10:27 AM

See what I mean? :-) Again!


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Subject: RE: BS: What utter rubbish!
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 27 Sep 18 - 10:31 AM

Ha ha Dave, but you can not quote me saying anything wrong, because there is nothing.
You are just a bad loser.


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Subject: RE: BS: What utter rubbish!
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 27 Sep 18 - 10:38 AM

Hey! I'm good. I said on 24 Sep 18 at 10:54 AM

He does this because he has to win at all costs. He admits himself that he comes on Mudcat to argue and he only picks the arguments that he thinks he can 'win'. There will be no compromise. No giving in. No conceding of any ground whatsoever until he pushes so hard that you will crack and at that point. You lose. Yes, he will say that as well.

I will make another prediction. This argument will have no end unless I chose not to respond any further. :-)


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Subject: RE: BS: What utter rubbish!
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 27 Sep 18 - 10:48 AM

Win at all costs?
Hardly.
You tried to challenge something I said, but I was able to produce facts proving me right and you wrong.

This argument will have no end unless I chose not to respond any further.

Only if you post more false claims that need refuting Dave.


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Subject: RE: BS: What utter rubbish!
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 27 Sep 18 - 10:56 AM

The irony is wasted. My work is done :-)


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Subject: RE: BS: What utter rubbish!
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 Sep 18 - 02:56 AM

Mine too.


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Subject: RE: BS: What utter rubbish!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Sep 18 - 04:36 AM

One day at a time Dave - stop feeding the trolls
Jim


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Mudcat time: 25 September 3:51 AM EDT

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