Conducting yourself

Subject: Review: Conducting yourself
From: Tattie Bogle
Date: 15 Sep 18 - 07:29 PM

Just wondering why a substantial number of our younger singers, and indeed, a few older ones, seem to find it necessary to conduct themselves with one or both hands going up and down while they are singing? Who is teaching them that, or are they inventing it for themselves, but not being told how contrived it looks? Personally, I find it both unnecessary, and also distracting to watch. Is someone teaching our younger singers to do this?
There have probably been previous threads on what to do with your hands while singing, especially if said hands are not otherwise employed in playing an instrument. I've never been a fan of the hands in the jeans pocket stance, nor the hand cupped behind the ear: hands relaxed by the sides or loosely clasped below waist level, maybe just opening out once in a while to emphasise a particular word or phrase seem ideal. But can we please get away from any flapping, self-conducting or other brachial histrionics?

Subject: RE: Review: Conducting yourself
From: Joe Offer
Date: 15 Sep 18 - 07:36 PM

My hands are occupied holding the fig leaf, so I don't have that problem.

I do move my hands when I'm leading singing. Otherwise, it's hard to figure out what to do with them when. Sometimes I gesture with my hands, sometimes I clasp them in front of myself fig-leaf fashion.

But it's a hard thing to know WHAT to do. I think I'd empathize with the singer's awkwardness, and recall how often I feel awkward myself.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: Review: Conducting yourself
From: RTim
Date: 15 Sep 18 - 09:09 PM

I tend to Conduct myself very well........in public!

Tim Radford

Subject: RE: Conducting yourself
From: GUEST,Observer
Date: 16 Sep 18 - 01:47 AM

Best use of hands these days seems to be to hold the sheet, phone, or tablet with the words on.

Subject: RE: Conducting yourself
From: The Sandman
Date: 16 Sep 18 - 02:25 AM

r the hand cupped behind the ear,
it s done for a very good reason it enables the singer to hear himself? herself better. more important is to present a ggod performance, practice and performance presentastion are important

Subject: RE: Conducting yourself
From: Jos
Date: 16 Sep 18 - 03:08 AM

Be careful with the fig-leaf solution. Several years ago there was a contestant on X-factor who kept grabbing his crotch. Maybe he thought it looked sexy. It didn't.

Subject: RE: Conducting yourself
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 16 Sep 18 - 04:19 AM

Ya mean like this...?? ;-)

Subject: RE: Conducting yourself
From: Newport Boy
Date: 16 Sep 18 - 04:36 AM

or the hand cupped behind the ear. It s done for a very good reason it enables the singer to hear himself? herself better.

If anyone still doubts this, there was a very interesting clip in a BBC programme about Leonard Bernstein a while ago. Jose Carreras (of the Three Tenors) was being given a hard time by Bernstein in rehearsal - Bernstein was known as a hard taskmaster. On his 3rd attempt at the troublesome line, Carreras cupped his hand behind his ear.

What's good enough for a top operatic tenor is good enough for me.

Subject: RE: Conducting yourself
From: Jack Campin
Date: 16 Sep 18 - 06:30 AM

Eddi Reader's handwaving does look pretty stupid (albeit not as stupid as what she sounds like, any of her videos are improved by turning the sound off).

On the other hand, any singer who's been trained in Indian music will be using their hands for a real purpose. The hand movements encode the underlying rhythmic pattern of the song, which is not always directly perceptible in the melody. (The only time I've tried to get this was being shown it by a Gypsy singer in a railway waiting room in Transylvania in the middle of the night: I didn't get it, but she persuaded me that it was worth getting).

Subject: RE: Conducting yourself
From: GUEST,akenaton
Date: 16 Sep 18 - 08:06 AM

I've had barney's with Big Edna over her interpretation of folk music, but I respect her. What you see is what you get and no one can accuse her of being insincere....she sings from the heart and may have more in common with folk music than she is given credit for.

    Gaun yersel Lassie!!

Subject: RE: Conducting yourself
From: treewind
Date: 16 Sep 18 - 08:28 AM

I've seen a singer conduct the audience when slowing down at the end of a final chorus, which seems fair enough, and I've also seen one making hand movements (palm up/palm down etc.) during a chorus, which are intended to indicate which way the tune is going. I believe the latter is a common technique when conducting choirs in rehearsal.

But conducting yourself when others are not expected to be joining in? I don't get that, though I'm sure Jack's Indian/Gypsy/Transylvanian example is perfectly genuine.

Subject: RE: Conducting yourself
From: Tattie Bogle
Date: 16 Sep 18 - 11:16 AM

I fully understand the acoustics behind cupping your hand behind your ear, and have been known to do it myself on rare occasions, maybe in a very noisy session or sitting next to some loud instrument, just to be able to hear my own voice. But not keen on seeing it being done routinely throughout each and every song.
And, yes, I find "Big Edna's" hand waving quite extraordinary, and Karen Matheson does the flappy thing (what the heck is that about?) And no, the people I'm talking about are not Indians. They are mainly these young up and coming British artists doing a continuous and persistent up and down movement of one hand throughout the whole song: it's an unnecessary and distracting mannerism: I repeat, who is teaching them to do this? Maybe you've not witnessed it yet, but it does appear to be a growing trend!

Subject: RE: Conducting yourself
From: John C. Bunnell
Date: 16 Sep 18 - 12:15 PM

Coming in from a different and wholly non-professional angle:

My public musical experience comes almost entirely from the "filk" community arising out of science fiction/fantasy fandom, and from that community's long-standing tradition of holding open song circles (both at private homes and at conventions). It should also be noted that the filk community quite deliberately encourages participation based on enthusiasm as opposed to talent or polish. I do not count myself as anything resembling a professional-quality vocalist, but when I can keep myself on-key I'm good enough not to embarrass myself in a circle that does include a fair number of properly trained performers.

Also relevant in my case: whereas my formal musical training ended in junior high, I was active in speech and debate through college and also counted stage magic as a hobby while growing up.

With that background: if you see my hands moving while I'm singing, one of two things is going on, and one of those absolutely is "conducting myself". If I'm gesturing consciously -- which I may be, given my speech training, particularly if I'm trying to sing "in character" -- those gestures will almost certainly correspond in some respect to my vocal rhythm. If I'm gesturing unconsciously -- which I also may be (see "purely amateur at this" disclaimers above) -- then the gestures will also correspond to the vocal rhythm, because it's far easier for my hands to work with that rhythm than to work against it.

And in a song circle, I may very well also be doing a little bit of audience-conducting -- possibly because I'm hoping for help on the choruses, very infrequently if someone's jumped in with an instrument to back my vocals, or as treewind notes above, to mark the end of a final chorus.

All of which may have very little to do with trends in up-and-coming British folk performance. OTOH, if the performers involved have been largely self-trained and have spent much time leading song circles around campfires or for church youth groups, etc.,....

Subject: RE: Conducting yourself
From: StephenH
Date: 16 Sep 18 - 01:00 PM

I never know what to do with my hands when I sing unaccompanied.
Which is one of the reasons that I took up playing mandolin (along with the pleasure of playing per se) Now, on the rare occasion I sing in public, I can rest my hands on the mando if I choose, while I sing unaccompanied.
Otherwise, I've tried holding them in front of me, behind me,etc.
The last time I sang, my wife remarked that it was a good idea that I'd had, to hook my thumbs in my back pockets, as it opened up my chest. I'd just done that unconsciously.
By the way, I'm sure that I've seen some videos of Norma Waterson "conducting" whilst singing - I always thought her hand movements looked quite graceful.

Subject: RE: Conducting yourself
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 16 Sep 18 - 01:18 PM

sooo.. the next concession to the sensitivities of fanatical trad folkies
is strapping young singers in straightjackets...???

Subject: RE: Conducting yourself
From: Jack Campin
Date: 16 Sep 18 - 01:21 PM

The movements "treewind" saw from choir conductors were possibly Kodaly hand-signs - quite a few people in the UK know them. The height of your hand and the gesture together encode a sol-fa pitch. Once you know them (and know some of the Kodaly system that uses them) they're a good idea.

Subject: RE: Conducting yourself
From: leeneia
Date: 16 Sep 18 - 02:15 PM

If you don't like how the singer looks, lower your eyes and listen. You'll hear better that way.

Subject: RE: Conducting yourself
From: Mooh
Date: 16 Sep 18 - 02:24 PM

I assume you don't mean like live Joe Cocker in A Little Help From My Friends, but sometimes a little hand movement is like dancing with the hands as opposed to conducting. Actual conducting with the hand(s) as one sings is an odd affectation but I doubt it's more than that. If indeed it's being taught, those teaching it can cease and desist forthwith.

Peace, Mooh.

Subject: RE: Conducting yourself
From: michaelr
Date: 16 Sep 18 - 03:13 PM

I think of such movements as rudimentary dancing: the singer is feeling the rhythm but cannot stray from the microphone, and is therefore limited to moving arms and legs. If you can bring yourself to watch contemporary pop stars, you'll find most wear headset mics - for the very reason that they enable the singers to dance.

Another aspect of hand movements is emoting - emphasizing what is being told in the lyrics. Since Karen Matheson was mentioned, this perfectly illustrates how the gestures help tell the story. (I defy anyone to get through it with eyes dry.)

If a singer doesn't have an instrument in his hands, what should s/he do with them? Sticking them into trouser pockets would surely look odd to someone... as would hanging them straight down, folding them in prayer, balling them into fists, or anything else one could conceive of.

PS: How did I know that Jack Campin would jump at the chance to slag off the inimitable Eddi Reader?

Subject: RE: Conducting yourself
From: GUEST,Jerry
Date: 16 Sep 18 - 03:16 PM

Doesn’t this all stem from programmes like X Factor, where aspiring pop singers are coached to inject some emotion into their performances? Presumably they’re told to use arms, hands and facial expressions to convey emotion, and the youngsters referred to at the top of the thread are just copying that style.

Subject: RE: Conducting yourself
From: Jack Campin
Date: 16 Sep 18 - 04:09 PM

Unfortunately Eddi Reader is anything but inimitable - it's hard to avoid hearing her clones.

Subject: RE: Conducting yourself
From: DMcG
Date: 16 Sep 18 - 04:55 PM

It is haedly a new thing - Norma Waterson has done so as long as I can remember. As Michealr said, it has always seemed to me more a sort of dance, where the music is felt so intensly it overflows into movement.

I remember a concert in London which was a solo gig for Elisa, where she seemed to have decided not to do that. She would start the song carefully controlled but a verse or two into it the'Norma arms' would start and then at a random point a verse or two later she seemed to realise and the arms would firmly stop... for a while.

Subject: RE: Conducting yourself
From: Tattie Bogle
Date: 16 Sep 18 - 05:29 PM

Lots of descriptions there of what other people do with their hands or arms, but none of them matching what I'm describing: no, it's not "Norma arms", X-factor or dancing with the hands, solfa pitching or any other such ruse. Mooh has it right: it IS an affectation. I'm not advocating strait-jackets either, pfr!
Just let the hands relax by the sides for most of the time, maybe some movement to emphasise an important note or phrase, but please stop this constant pulsating up and down of one hand throughout every note of the song: might just as well put a baton in it and be done with it!
(And also let's stop the pointless microphone fiddling while I'm having a moan!)
Another reason to look away, Leeneia!

Subject: RE: Conducting yourself
From: leeneia
Date: 18 Sep 18 - 09:13 AM

Yep.

Subject: RE: Conducting yourself
From: meself
Date: 18 Sep 18 - 01:22 PM

I've seen a couple of younger women doing a bit of graceful movement with the hands, which surprised me, but seemed to complement the singing somewhat, however unnecessarily. But I just had a look at and a listen to a few seconds of Eddi Reader - and I'm afraid I'm with Jack. I'll leave it at that (not that anything I say is going to effect her career!).

Subject: RE: Conducting yourself
From: GUEST,akenaton
Date: 18 Sep 18 - 01:53 PM

What does it matter if Edna waves her arms around a bit.....she can wave her arms around me anytime she likes...:0) She has a lovely voice which is very expressive and she obviously loves being an entertainer....she revels in it and jolly good luck to her.

As I said earlier I've had a few rows with her on other forums, but she has a great sense of humour and is really quite self- deprecating, not at all snooty.

Subject: RE: Conducting yourself
From: Raedwulf
Date: 18 Sep 18 - 02:16 PM

I can understand Mr Bunnell's comments vis filk. I'm not a filk or Con person myself, but I know plenty who are. What I am (or have been) amongst other things (the repeatable ones, anyway), is a storyteller. Where the hell do you put your hands?

They're not occupied by an instrument. Stick them behind your back? You look like a schoolkid, up on stage, all alone & nervous. Hold them in front? Ummm… That's groin level, this isn't getting any better...

Let's face it, folkies (& filkies), after the face, the most expressive part of the human anatomy is the hands. Let's talk stereotypes. The most important thing to remember about a stereotype? It's not "Oh, that's a stereotype, how rubbish is that?" It's "stereotypes exist because they happen often enough to exist in (sub-)cultural consciousness!" Now think of some of the stereotypes you've ever seen of Mediterranean folk. Spanish, N.African, Greek, Italian... Does an image arise in your mind of people waving their hands (& arms to a lesser degree; it's the hands that are giving the meaningful signals) around in greeting, joy, argument, anger, etc? Much more so than the reserved, unemotional N.Europeans (another stereotype), eh?

And there, I think, is the answer to Tattie's opening q. Trained or untrained, if you have thought what to do with your hands, there'll be some chance they're dong something you meant them to. If you haven't... They'll either default to whatever your cultural norm is for the situation, or to what you've seen in the same setting (which might well be more specific & therefore more powerful). So our younger singers, in this instance, are probably increasingly copying other singers (younger or not) because a visibly moving hand is more noticeable than one that isn't...

Subject: RE: Conducting yourself
From: FreddyHeadey
Date: 18 Sep 18 - 02:19 PM

! Oh the microphone knobtighteners!!!
Don't get me started!

The hand movements which annoy me are the ones which look as though they were learned in primary school.
It is in the same order as shouting!! or TYPING uppercase.
"LOOK out on the OCEAN for my LOVE..."

But ... sometimes I do find myself starting to use some hand gestures. It's a good memory aid.
Then its hands back in pockets time and I try to imagine the actions.

I'm not sure Norma Waterson's gestures have ever distracted me. Having just watched her on youtube they seem to be a good expression of emotion and emphasis.

On the other hand, here is Sam Lee.
Yes there is a choir behind him but that has its own conductor.
https://youtu.be/HdCNdBFd3Fc?t=93s

In Sacred  Harp\Shapenote singing they use their hands a lot.
https://youtu.be/98fVjc4MfXQ?t=64s 

Subject: RE: Conducting yourself
From: michaelr
Date: 18 Sep 18 - 07:43 PM

OK, I'm going to take the plunge and ask you to comment on my band's videos "Do You Love an Apple" and "Flash Company". What do you think of the singer's hand movements, then?

Subject: RE: Conducting yourself
From: Tattie Bogle
Date: 18 Sep 18 - 07:51 PM

I have deliberately shied away from naming names for these "self-conductors" that I'm on about, but believe you me, there are increasing numbers of them about. Most of the younger ones still learning their stage-craft, but I sincerely hope that someone who mentors them will tell them to stop it! But once you've seen it, you'll know what I'm on about.
And as I said before, I'm not talking about Eddie Reader, Norma Waterson, Tina Turner: no, this is a different, but disturbing phenomenon.
And if you want an example of a younger singer who DOES know what to do with her hands, please watch Iona Fyfe: superbly relaxed stance and hands. The singing and song says it all: no need for anything else!

Subject: RE: Conducting yourself
From: meself
Date: 18 Sep 18 - 08:19 PM

Just had a look and listen - and I agree, TB. A relief after that other one.

Subject: RE: Conducting yourself
From: Jack Campin
Date: 19 Sep 18 - 11:17 AM

More like miming rock climbing than conducting:

https://www.facebook.com/irena.kotvitskaya/videos/2419161648110433/

Flamenco may have something to do with that one.

Subject: RE: Conducting yourself
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Sep 18 - 11:39 AM

FWIW I found this https://files.eric.ed.gov/fulltext/EJ1061970.pdf

Subject: RE: Conducting yourself
From: Jack Campin
Date: 19 Sep 18 - 11:49 AM

Not about to follow a link from somebody anonymous to a file that could be anything.

Subject: RE: Conducting yourself
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 19 Sep 18 - 11:59 AM

Jack - scaredy cat...

I had a look.. and it's not the best p0rn I ever saw...
but if you are into that sort of thing..
is there even a word for that sort of weird fetish...???

Subject: RE: Conducting yourself
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Sep 18 - 12:07 PM

Conducting yourself? I don't know, it sounds a bit like baton off.

I'll get me...

Subject: RE: Conducting yourself
From: GUEST,gillymor
Date: 19 Sep 18 - 12:11 PM

I'll confess to the above

Subject: RE: Conducting yourself
From: GUEST,19 Sep 18 - 11:39 AM
Date: 19 Sep 18 - 01:22 PM

It's an https link, not hidden behind a mudcat blue clicky,
to a document on a US Department of Education server.

ERIC is an online library of education research and information, sponsored by the Institute of Education Sciences (IES) of the U.S. Department of Education.


There is caution - and then there is paranoia.

Subject: RE: Conducting yourself
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 20 Sep 18 - 04:13 AM

Modern day X-factor type pop singers wave their hands about because that's the way it's done theses days. Back in the '50s and '60s, none of them could sing without clicking their fingers.

DC

Subject: RE: Conducting yourself
From: Johnny J
Date: 20 Sep 18 - 04:21 AM

Was Dave Berry one of the very first "affected" performers?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1m_yiOj0dak

Subject: RE: Conducting yourself
From: GUEST,Mark Bluemel
Date: 20 Sep 18 - 05:14 AM

"FWIW I found this https://files.eric.ed.gov/fulltext/EJ1061970.pdf" with no context (apart from being in this thread) and no discussion of its content and/or relevance is a red-flag to many forum users.
PDF files can be vectors for malware. Sites can be, and have been, hacked and malicious files put up.

I think Jack was reasonable in his response. You still haven't explained why it's worth the time and the risk.

Subject: RE: Conducting yourself
From: Johnny J
Date: 20 Sep 18 - 05:30 AM

Tattie Bogle mentions Iona Fyffe.

She's wonderful and disproves all the nonsense on that Folk Revival 2018 thread



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tRVHjc1qAUU

Subject: RE: Conducting yourself
From: Tattie Bogle
Date: 20 Sep 18 - 06:16 AM

Just viewed your clips, Michael R: would say your singer's hand movements are not excessive, and seem to be used to emphasise certain words in the songs, which perhaps is the common scenario. I did wonder what was going to happen next when she threw off her scarf: segue into "The Stripper"?
And the fiddler's facial contortions were delightful: was he fighting that fiddle?
But this still isn't what I was talking about in my previous posts: a relentless down and up movement in time to the music as if conducting a 2/4 march!

Subject: RE: Conducting yourself
From: Johnny J
Date: 20 Sep 18 - 06:33 AM

I'm trying find examples on You Tube but Iona and also Robyn Stapleton, Claire Hastings, Emily Smith don't seem to suffer too much from this affliction. Neither Fiona Hunter or Siobhan Millar.

Give us a clue. :-))

Subject: RE: Conducting yourself
From: FreddyHeadey
Date: 20 Sep 18 - 11:14 AM

well Johnny J, what d you think on the Sam Lee link?

Subject: RE: Conducting yourself
From: Johnny J
Date: 20 Sep 18 - 11:30 AM

It's a "choir thing" as you say but he's maybe just getting into the spirit of things. ;-))

Subject: RE: Conducting yourself
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 20 Sep 18 - 11:44 AM

"Tattie Bogle mentions Iona Fyffe.

She's wonderful and disproves all the nonsense on that Folk Revival 2018 thread"

She's superb - I can think of a number of young female singers, currently hailed as stars in the folkie-firmament, who could learn a great deal from her regarding delivery of a song, singing in tune, and what it sounds like when you have some life in your voice instead of that flat, tuneless drone they seem to go in for.

Subject: RE: Conducting yourself
From: FreddyHeadey
Date: 20 Sep 18 - 12:25 PM

@JJ - I was trying to say it's NOT "a choir thing".
It's a Sam Lee "thing".
If you Google him in some other videos you might see more examples.

I thought I recalled Lucy Ward using odd arm gestures but actually I quite like her actions here
https://youtu.be/-CpEJ-8rV4s

I'd name others if I could find videos but TB I need clues.
It's difficult to discuss otherwise.

Subject: RE: Conducting yourself
From: michaelr
Date: 21 Sep 18 - 03:03 AM

Tattie Bogle, thanks for your comments. She only did that scarf thing once, and I didn't notice until I saw the video, but I think it's the perfect gesture for that moment in the song - "Before I was married I wore a (something) shawl...".

As for facial contortions, both the fiddler and the percussionist are endlessly entertaining. Love those guys!

Subject: RE: Conducting yourself
From: GUEST,19 Sep 18 - 11:39 AM
Date: 21 Sep 18 - 05:48 AM

Apparently some teachers "regularly encourage their students to use various gestures and/or body-movements to facilitate understanding and learning of physiological functions, thought concepts or musical ideas"

You could follow this link to one of several academic papers on the subject.

However, maybe you should, as I always do when using a blue clicky here, check were the link will take you. I could be trying to sucker you into visiting an unsafe page, though if doing that I would probably use the name of one of the regular guest users.

Subject: RE: Conducting yourself
From: FreddyHeadey
Date: 21 Sep 18 - 06:59 AM

" ... It could be shown that a significant number of
voice teachers in both surveyed countries regularly use various gestures to enhance and/or illustrate explanation
and/or demonstration; and an almost equal number of voice teachers in both countries regularly encourage their
students to use various gestures and/or body-movements to facilitate understanding and learning of physiological
functions, thought concepts or musical ideas. ... " 
 
Thanks "GUEST,19 Sep".
An interesting article, too many good quotes to put here.

but here's one
" A gesture can help to commit a voice-technical
mechanism to the physiological/kinesthetic
part of the brain so that it can later be called upon. Also – very importantly – a gesture can
(particularly when used to replace useless, tense,
habitual gestures) help to get rid of faulty old
habits.
And another wrote:
A gesture gives very good feedback about a
student’s thoughts about a phrase, his/her
sensation for voice positioning, breath, etc. Hand
and body show a student’s unconscious thoughts,
with which inner image he guides his voice.
Adjusting a movement to a desired gesture also
alters voice positioning and breath. The causal
connection between brain and hand never ceases
to astonish."

It does seem to be focusing on teaching techniques. I, rhetorically, wonder what advice they give for the actual performance?
(it might say... but I'm a slow reader.... 17 pages, I didn't follow every point)

Subject: RE: Conducting yourself
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 21 Sep 18 - 07:36 AM

GUEST whoever you are - some mudcatters need to keep their anti virus and malware protection up to date
and be a little less afraid of the unknown...

Not all GUESTS are hostile arseholes, and not all named signed in members are without malicious intent...