Playing the guitar

Subject: Playing the guitar
From: GUEST,akenaton
Date: 16 Sep 18 - 04:51 AM

I play guitar "by ear", started when I was about twenty and although I didn't have much time with work and a large young family, I could produce recognisable tunes......mainly Scottish pipe tunes and well known folk stuff. I cant sing for toffee so I had to fingerpick the melody.
For years I was on a plateau and thought that I had gone as far as I could...got a bit fed up, then about a couple of years ago I picked up the instrument again and found that I had improved quite a bit and continue to do so.....or so my son tells me!
Is this common among guitar players? I met one lately who plays professionally and he told me its all about relaxation and forgetting about technic....."let the music take over" he said.
I would appreciate any comments as I love just being able to produce simple music.

Subject: RE: Playing the guitar
From: Black belt caterpillar wrestler
Date: 16 Sep 18 - 05:06 AM

I have found that making progress with one instrument can mean an unexpected improvement on another when you return to it.

Also, quite a few other skills have benefited from time to let the brain work on it by itself. The old idea of sleeping on a problem does seem to work.

Robin

Subject: RE: Playing the guitar
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 16 Sep 18 - 05:08 AM

Don't know and there is so much I can't do, there have been long periods of not playing and ones of just settling for 3 chord wonder, etc. And even when playing music, practice can be sporadic...

One thing that I did try more with maybe one or two years back in terms of trying most nights does seem to have come on a bit though.

I can't quite explain it but I have become (to me) more fluent in terms of trying to pick out melodies. Still a long way to go to be able to do what I can on tenor banjo or mandolin (nothing spectacular but I'd sit second row in a few say Irish sessions reasonably well) but something, maybe the need for picking accross 3 instead of two strings and/or maybe getting more used to the std guitar tuning or a bit of both seems to have just happened lately.

Subject: RE: Playing the guitar
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 16 Sep 18 - 05:13 AM

I do play a number of instruments - badly! With each I have found that a break does seem to do a bit of good but not practising for too long does not seem to help. I guess it's a question of achieving the right balance.

Subject: RE: Playing the guitar
From: GUEST,Akenaton
Date: 16 Sep 18 - 05:17 AM

Thanks lads, but I have never played in a session or even with another guitarist, I live in a relatively isolated area, where fiddlers and pipers are more common than guitar players.:0)
I still seem to need to hear what I am playing, I suppose this is related to lack of formal musical training?

Subject: RE: Playing the guitar
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 16 Sep 18 - 05:25 AM

I don't know Ake and outside a term of classical guitar lessons, I'm self taught.

Re the session bit, a pretty near mental block for me is hearing the chords (and there maybe several versions and tunings that work) that would really go with the dance music. I'd get away with some but just say plain G C D chords often sound naff..

I think that's just me but (actually I might get away with this but you'd know the tune). I'd could rate my own chances of getting to pick the melody to Athol Highlanders on guitar as higher than being the accompanist.

Subject: RE: Playing the guitar
From: GUEST,Ake
Date: 16 Sep 18 - 05:39 AM

Sorry Jon.....I don't understand your meaning in your last sentence and my playing is based on four chords C G7 F Am....and my combination of melody and rhythm sounds like Mother Maybelle on speed.
Am I a hopeless case?

Subject: RE: Playing the guitar
From: The Sandman
Date: 16 Sep 18 - 05:40 AM

my advice in standard tuning is to either pick melodies with thumb carter style using key of c or g or use finger in style of john hurt again c and g and d are relatively easy.
i adapt carter syle by dropping the brush and repacing it with up finger on string above, by using strings 234, and using thumb melody on 5 string banjo, this will be the same as 5 string banjo in dgbd, you are two thirds of the way to being able. if you have a second guitar try open g tuning dgdgbd thiswill also help with 5 string banjo

Subject: RE: Playing the guitar
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 16 Sep 18 - 05:50 AM

No, your not at all hopeless.

The really good accompanist of the Irish (and other) seem to play sort of "half chords" say a G with something added or taken away and it just seems to flow, sometimes taking up bits of the melody. But I think it's a skill in its own rights and one where DADGAD is favoured by a few...

It's beyond me... There are plenty of songs that will work with your chord pattern (And moving it to other keys) and that's mostly all I do with chords.

Subject: RE: Playing the guitar
From: GUEST,akenaton
Date: 16 Sep 18 - 05:54 AM

Sandman, your adaptation of the Carter style is similar to mine, but I have a problem when playing reels and jigs....don't have enough fingers.....thanks for your post, very helpful...A

Subject: RE: Playing the guitar
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Sep 18 - 06:02 AM

YES Jon, I adapt chords to suit the melody and keep the rhythm going and it SOUNDS alright and makes it easier to pick out.
I find relaxation as advised by the professional does help it's as if the instrument is in the hands of some one more competent.

Subject: RE: Playing the guitar
From: GUEST,akenaton
Date: 16 Sep 18 - 06:05 AM

These comments are great, but I have to go out to work on a roof, hope you can give some more advice and perhaps it will be helpful to other amateurs.   Ake

Subject: RE: Playing the guitar
From: doc.tom
Date: 16 Sep 18 - 06:13 AM

I think that learning and developing on an instrument is like everything else - you plateau, you progress, you plateau, you progress. Sometimes a break helps, sometimes it doesn't. But, as was said elsewhere, the more you practice, the more 'talented' you become [smiley face]. T

Subject: RE: Playing the guitar
From: GUEST,Bignige
Date: 16 Sep 18 - 06:32 AM

Playing in sessions is a really good way to train your ear and your technique. Chord sequencing can be tricky but just watch what the other guys do and copy it. Its by no means the only way to improve but it does help quite a bit

Subject: RE: Playing the guitar
From: KarenH
Date: 16 Sep 18 - 06:39 AM

Depends on whether the others at the session are happy to have somebody joining in who is there to learn chord sequencing!

Subject: RE: Playing the guitar
From: banjoman
Date: 16 Sep 18 - 07:24 AM

Its all really about enjoying the instrument and accepting your own limitations but to try and increase them. I have had a long period of not being able to play following hand surgery and even now its painful at times. I just play what I can and am thankful for the long time when I could play all night (and day) if needed. Its still a bit frustrating though.

Subject: RE: Playing the guitar
From: GUEST,akenaton
Date: 16 Sep 18 - 07:41 AM

Back again, false alarm!

I think that is the secret, to accept that we (amateurs) are never going to be experts and to enjoy the making of music simple as it may be. I remember the amateur musicians who contributed to our weekly concert long before the second revival was known about: they played fiddles or melodeons and played simple tunes to which all the neighbours danced......then the singing would start, lovely Gaelic airs( a lot of us still had the Gaelic) and those who did not knew the old tunes and how to say the words.... didn't seem to matter if we understood them or not......I suppose THAT was folk music?

Karen, I detect a note of cynicism? As I said, I have never participated in a session.....the old musicians never seemed to practise or even play, except to contribute to the concert/dance.
Their lives were full of work and hardship, but they were held in high esteem by the little community.

Subject: RE: Playing the guitar
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 16 Sep 18 - 07:53 AM

Sessions can have their own rules for guitars, Ake. Some may even have their single established guitarist and another player would not usually be welcome. You have to take that how you find it per venue.

I'd agree with the accept limitations. I guess if I really wanted to play like anyone on guitar, I'd be playing like Chris Newman but that never would be... Same with banjo really, I love the playing of Barney McKenna (Dubliners) but never would be as good. Still one finds places where one can fit in and enjoy...

Subject: RE: Playing the guitar
From: GUEST,akenaton
Date: 16 Sep 18 - 08:18 AM

Jon a while back I discovered Dave Hum the banjo player who is now unfortunately deceased.
He appeared to be mainly a busker, but I thought his playing was magical, he seemed to interpret all the tunes in his own style, while retaining the traditional "soul"
Wish I could find out more about him.

I think i'll give the sessions a miss, but my hands are getting a bit arthritic after so many years cutting and hammering...
Still it's lovely to get so much good advice which can hopefully be picked up by younger players.

Subject: RE: Playing the guitar
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 16 Sep 18 - 08:32 AM

I'd not give them a miss that easily, Ake. Take a look around and see what is meant by "session".

My own usual understanding would be a tune dominated (if not entirely) event and one where you could be expected to know and play (with the ones you do know - you don't have to play everything) what you do in a way that fits with others and there may be no room for a beginner in that.

OTOH, the only thing I get to these days also calls itself a session and would take 2 or three guitars going, has more songs, tunes are more mixed, eg. English and a few Irish...

I know this drifts a fair way from your OP but best advice to anyone on that line is probably look around and see what might fit you.

Subject: RE: Playing the guitar
From: GUEST,AKE
Date: 16 Sep 18 - 08:56 AM

Good advice Jon.

Subject: RE: Playing the guitar
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Sep 18 - 08:59 AM

and I don't mind a bit of thread drift, I like to know what people really think. A

Subject: RE: Playing the guitar
From: KarenH
Date: 16 Sep 18 - 08:59 AM

I didn't intend to be cynical, was actually wondering whether going to a session, or some sessions, to practice guitar (or on the same logic any other instrument) might not be a bit anti-social. They might prefer you to wait until you had got yourself sorted out a bit. Like Jon Freeman says.

There is so much free guitar tuition on line nowadays and some of it is very good.

"...the old musicians never seemed to practise or even play, except to contribute to the concert/dance." Not sure what the intended point of this comment is; I'm thinking nobody had got to be a musician without practising at some point.

Subject: RE: Playing the guitar
From: GUEST,akenaton
Date: 16 Sep 18 - 09:11 AM

The point being made was that these musicians did not have or need a huge repertoire, they were performing a function just like I do with my slating....I don't need to practise my craft after seventy years and these old boys knew their limitations just like Jon says, but they made everyone's burden just a little bit lighter by their music making. Their music was not always perfect, but that added to the general enjoyment and hilarity and folks appreciated them, today they would be mocked and insulted.

Subject: RE: Playing the guitar
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 16 Sep 18 - 09:15 AM

Sure Karen. I'd guess much would depend on Ake's area (which I've a feeling is somewhere I had a childhood holiday - Campletown/Argyll? and I've no clue what goes on there or most of the UK) but it's not a bad idea to look and if you find one venue, ask too, they might point you to somewhere more suitable.

My own area of Norfolk btw is mostly monthly informal folk clubs/singarounds with the occasional tune except the one I mentioned which had a few more interested in tunes. I'd need to get say 25 miles into the city for the more Irish (my first taste) tune session.

Subject: RE: Playing the guitar
From: GUEST,akenaton
Date: 16 Sep 18 - 09:17 AM

Regarding the "On line stuff", I've watched it, but over the years I have developed my own style and I'm to old to go back and start again.
I was simply asking for a few hints from those among us who are more proficient than I.

Subject: RE: Playing the guitar
From: GUEST,akenaton
Date: 16 Sep 18 - 09:25 AM

Yes Jon, the wild Cowal Peninsula the other side of Loch Fyne.
I think we discussed the Southend area of the Mull of Kintyre a few years ago as I was working there at the time.
As I remarked earlier this area has produced the World champion piper and the World Champion Pipe Band, plenty of fiddle and pipe tuition but the guitar doesn't get a look in.
I think it doesn't go well with the kilt and Prince Charlie Jacket :0)

Subject: RE: Playing the guitar
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 16 Sep 18 - 09:30 AM

(yes, it was around Southend)

Subject: RE: Playing the guitar
From: leeneia
Date: 16 Sep 18 - 09:35 AM

I tried to teach myself guitar using the Mel Bay book about folk guitar, but it didn't go well. I couldn't move three fingers at a time to land on the chord position.

I had had piano lessons and knew basic music theory, so I went back to the music store and bought a classical book by Aaron Shearer. It was fussy and old-fashioned, but it taught me where the individual notes were. I'd put a chord together one note at a time, putting fingers down as needed for a picking pattern. In a few months I could put fingers down all together.

This might help somebody else someday.

Subject: RE: Playing the guitar
From: GUEST,Bignige
Date: 16 Sep 18 - 09:35 AM

I know the Irish sessions can be a bit picky, if try a bluegrass session. First of all you only need to know a few chords G C D etc and there are usually a few guitars so always someone to follow, and if you should make a mistake no one will ever hear it above the Banjos.

Subject: RE: Playing the guitar
From: GUEST,akenaton
Date: 16 Sep 18 - 09:44 AM

Thanks Leeneia, but most music books seem to presume that you can read music....I did start off all these years ago with a book and vinyl LP by John Pearse, but I was to impatient at the time to persevere.

Subject: RE: Playing the guitar
From: Nick
Date: 16 Sep 18 - 10:05 AM

Personally I have always found that the way off a plateau is by playing with other people. My guitar playing has improved various times - since I started accompanying two singers; since I played in a band or two and enjoyed the interaction of working out how to play things 'our way'; writing and recording a backing for a friends unaccompanied song; since going to new and different sessions/singarounds/open mics; and listening to a lot of things and thinking "I'd like to play that" and doing something about it. And I am quite comfortable sitting in sessions and playing along - if there are guitarists already there I'll either find somewhere else to play on the guitar or put it down and listen.

Each of these takes me out of a comfort zone and teaches me something new. Even if it is just that I need to practice something technical or rethink something.

Other people though is the biggest stimulus and catalyst. Watching, listening, copying, adding and interacting are the things.

And there are places I go where I can learn to try and avoid some of the worst excesses of non-sympathetic playing. There is a place I have a few times recently where several people in the room think they are really ace solo guitarists and most of them aren't. Playing a pentatonic lick or two over each song is not good soloing.

And playing with others (especially when I don't know the songs) is great for training my ears (which are fairly good anyway) and transposing stuff on the fly. Even two guitars just played in different registers on the guitar adds something often - if it is in time and in tune.

So I would recommend finding people to share music with. I go up to Arran every other year or three and always find places and people to join in with. You are not a million miles away so I can't believe it is that different. It is just that the make up of a session may have a harp, pipes and other instruments less frequently found in Yorkshire (though I do come across them here - and cellos and a tuba...)

Subject: RE: Playing the guitar
From: KarenH
Date: 16 Sep 18 - 10:14 AM

Ake: I agree with everything you said. Enjoy yourself is the main thing. Manners are definitely not what they used to be.

Subject: RE: Playing the guitar
From: Nick
Date: 16 Sep 18 - 10:19 AM

And I have found other through Gumtree and various other online resources. And sometimes one thing that may not work) happens to lead to another.

I joined a band some years ago which didn't work out. But out of that I stayed in contact with one of the people who then introduced me to probably one of the best musicians I ever met. That led to a few gigs and when that band went its separate ways we continued and played a few times before he returned to Ireland. I still keep in touch with him and hopefully will play together in December.

And I still keep my eyes open for other opportunities because you never know where it may lead.

Subject: RE: Playing the guitar
From: GUEST,Jerry
Date: 16 Sep 18 - 11:14 AM

Pardon the thread creep, but I think there is too much reliance on internet and the like these days, where self styled experts show you where to put your fingers, rather than you having to work out for yourself where the notes are on the fretboard and what note combinations are needed to form particular chords. My favourite cringe was a YouTube video where the ‘expert’ confessed to not knowing the note of the open botttom string, but constantly referred to it as ‘this fat string here’. Whether such people should be allowed to teach others is a matter for another thread no doubt, but there is a lot to be said for the approach of classical musicians. Having mastered the basics on your chosen instrument, then take time out to learn another instrument(properly that is, not in a guitar like chord style), then return to your first instrument, which you should find much easier to play and navigate. Previous’ generations of course learnt their way around the fretboard, how to play scales, etc, before learning about chords and harmonic progressions, now we teach all that in reverse, so it’s no wonder we reach plateaux. Plenty to argue with there, I’m sure.....

Subject: RE: Playing the guitar
From: Raedwulf
Date: 16 Sep 18 - 11:53 AM

My experience (& I used to be good enough that I tried making a living teaching it, and I mean teaching it properly, not random self self-taught bloke passing on a load of bad habits to make a few quid...) is this...

I have, let me see... Two electrics, one classical; 3 lutes, one of them custom made (I was a re-enactor once...), two basses, a 23 string clarsach (wrong, wrong, wrong! It should have had fewer strings & they ought to have been gut...), a BIG rope tensioned side drum, a djembe, a wooden recorder (re-enactor, remember). Oh, and a set of (ancient now) Yamaha keyboards. I think that's everything...

In my experience, not just of musical instruments, the two real sticking points in learning any skill are the first 10% and the last 10%. Going from "I can't do anything" to "I can do something" can be incredibly frustrating. It's very easy to give up (I never have learnt to play that damn harp). The last 10% equally, it takes so much effort & dedication to go from pretty good to mastery...

The 80% in between? With a reasonable amount of dedication & effort, you can progress, but yes, Ake, there are plateaus. There are times when you feel you're not making any progress at all. What I've often found is that if you leave it alone & come back later, suddenly something has clicked, bedded in in the sub-conscious, whatever it might be, and suddenly... Off the plateau & rising again. Speaking from a purely musical p-o-v, since that seems most appropriate, that lick you can't quite get up to speed, that chord change you always seem to fumble... Relax, leave it alone, practise other stuff, enjoy your playing. Two weeks (or whatever) later, think "Oooo, let's have another go at..." And suddenly it's there, and you feel so much more positive. Suddenly it's "I'm so much better than I used to be" instead of "I'm not getting anywhere". Etcetera...

Subject: RE: Playing the guitar
From: GUEST,akenaton
Date: 16 Sep 18 - 02:15 PM

Raedwulf... would you consider a 50% discount for cash? :0)

Seriously thanks to all you lovely people for taking the time to help an oldie folkie.
I do practise almost every night but I missed a lot of time since buying my precious guitar for a tenner
It's a sixties Suzuki Nagoya RM classical, light as a feather and beautiful base tone. Wish I could do it justice.
When I pick it up, the fact that I can play a few recognisable tunes fills me with wonder

Subject: RE: Playing the guitar
From: Raedwulf
Date: 16 Sep 18 - 03:12 PM

So, you expect to get away with paying me one bob instead of two??!! :O

You do it justice by playing it & by enjoying your playing & by enjoying it. It doesn't matter whether you're Julian Bream or Frank Fumblefingers. That's also worth remembering... ;-)

As I suggested above, if you find you're getting frustrated with summat, just leave it alone for a bit & practice something else instead. Come back to it later & you never know... And never be loathe to chuckle at yer cock-ups. Good humour is not a bad teacher!

Subject: RE: Playing the guitar
From: KarenH
Date: 16 Sep 18 - 05:19 PM

Tablature, which might be worth a try. It takes a while to get the hang of it, but it is useful. It might be worth seeing if the library will get you something by, say Stephan Grossman: there is a book of 'Celtic' guitar by Grossman and John Renbourne which might appeal. Also one by Duck Baker of Irish jigs for fingerpicking guitar style. Just a thought. If got via the library you don't have to lay out lots of money to see if it suits.

Subject: RE: Playing the guitar
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 16 Sep 18 - 06:28 PM

i think its just nice meeting other guitar players. i certainly owe my love of the instrument to the joy of meeting other people , watching what they do: saying how did you do that: i'd love to play that song - will you show me?; and just the fun of it all.

leaving it, and not playing doesn't work for me - but sometimes giving an individual project a break and playing something else - then coming back refreshed works.

Subject: RE: Playing the guitar
From: GUEST,akenaton
Date: 16 Sep 18 - 07:15 PM

Karen, I met and chatted to Duck Baker back in 1969 when he guested at our folk club....a lovely guy and I still have his LP record of jigs and reels, He got me interest in finger picking pipe tunes.

Thanks for the ideas Al.

Raedwulf...you're a real tight-arse......hyphenated...the worst kind.

Subject: RE: Playing the guitar
From: KarenH
Date: 16 Sep 18 - 07:49 PM

Duck Baker's stuff is lovely. I could never do anything like it! Ever!

Subject: RE: Playing the guitar
From: The Sandman
Date: 17 Sep 18 - 02:20 AM

ake, a lot of would be guitarists are never told it is not necessary to play all six strings at once.have you tried tuning 1 string high e down to d , you then have four strings of banjo ,dgbd
the next move is to tune high b up to c easier if you have medium light or light strings this gives you banjo sawmil tuning, you arethen good tuning for american tunes and modal tunes ,my approach next would be to play ther tune on 432 strings and use 1 string as a drone , this means you have to go up higher on 2 string for the melody,[ i am going to make a wee over simplification] this is the basis of roscoe holcomb banjo style thumb melody[ not to be confused with thumb melody bluegrass, which useses rolls to fill out harmony sound]

Subject: RE: Playing the guitar
From: The Sandman
Date: 17 Sep 18 - 02:33 AM

so the above tunings are g major tunings and g modal should be ideal for scots pipe tunes which are often mixolydian which is g major with flateened 7 example gabcde f natural g
or g dorian ga bflat c d e f natural g flat 3 and flat 7 you should be able to ick tunes and use 1 string as drone , the idea is to get away from chords to some extent and use drone, similiar to scots pipes

Subject: RE: Playing the guitar
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Sep 18 - 10:22 AM

Thanks Sandman that is fascinating, really interesting and I will try to put you advice into practice, but I am such an idiot regarding proper music that I fear most of the tuning stuff will be over my head. But I'm going to have a go and see what it sounds like...you are a first class guy. Ake.

Subject: RE: Playing the guitar
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 17 Sep 18 - 10:50 AM

Again Ake. I think, while maybe it could be taught, some things may lie in the range of what we hear? I can for example give some form of "Freight Train" and can for example make Leaving of Liverpool, Hard Times and maybe I've got a lovely bunch of cocounts, I've Got Sixpence, Tenessee Waltz, The Owl and the Pussy Cat, etc, whereby, while not well done, one would hear the tune in some form(s) of melody chord finger way and can (at least if we stay down the bottom), often make other things semi recogisable. You know where the melody is to get the say thumb to oblige is not that difficult.

Having seen a demo on Youtube, Status Quo and the Caroline is not that hard - an aim to play a reel like Trip To Durrow on Guitar melody line would be far harder but some attempts at folk are more natural to me than say rock and so we could go on...

Subject: RE: Playing the guitar
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 17 Sep 18 - 12:37 PM

a chromatic tuner should sort out tuning.

Subject: RE: Playing the guitar
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 17 Sep 18 - 02:10 PM

Interestingly, I would say that it's easier to get into learning classical guitar - in the early stages, than folk guitar.
Why? Well, most folk guitar players will begin by learning chords which involves moving a number of fretting hand fingers simultaneously whereas beginning students on classical guitar tend to start by playing simple melodies one note at a time.

Subject: RE: Playing the guitar
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 17 Sep 18 - 03:08 PM

I'd guess most kids first learn simple blues/rock guitar riffs these days...

Subject: RE: Playing the guitar
From: The Sandman
Date: 17 Sep 18 - 03:22 PM

Subject: RE: Playing the guitar
From: punkfolkrocker - PM
Date: 17 Sep 18 - 03:08 PM

I'd guess most kids first learn simple blues/rock guitar riffs these days..."
Sorry, what has kids got to do with this, ake is asking for some help regarding plying melody or scottish pipe tunes not blues or rock guitar,